Re: Boson Exam for CIPT [7:59924]
At 5:49 AM + 12/30/02, The Long and Winding Road wrote: Howard C. Berkowitz wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... At 3:00 AM + 12/29/02, Lan Wong wrote: Greetings, snip some things I'll also throw out a general question. A post not long ago asked to compare the labs of one vendor versus another, and I am affiliated with one of the two. The question was which is better, and, if I responded, I would have said they really can't be compared directly, because they are designed for different learning objectives. Would such a comment from the designer be acceptable? In other words, no direct competitive analysis, but just a statement of the design philosophy? While I think such information would be useful, I'd rather not see it posted that trigering a series of mine is better than yours posts. OK, Howard, I'll bite on this one, especially as seeing we had some conversation off line on this very topic. Actually, I meant it for offline, but as long as it's here, I think it's a worthy discussion. Let me talk about the way I personally design labs that are not labeled CCIE Lab Practice. My approach is to focus on one technology at a time, and then the interactions of that technology with others. This works especially well in a situation where you have additional study material -- and, before anyone jumps to conclusions about commercial products, this is how I developed advanced classes that I did both independently and with training partners. In my classroom advanced routing course (mostly OSPF), I did the bulk labs differently than most Cisco courses. Rather than splitting into teams and doing a reasonably complete scenario, after each lecture concept, I'd have them type a few configuration statements before and after doing show commands, and possibly a debug once they were configuring. Hypothetical example: show routes, show protocols router OSPF with one network statement show routes, show protocols, show ip ospf database and other OSPF displays start debug on the local router and a second router on a second router, bring up OSPF on an interface that doesn't connect to the first router, and do the various displays. start OSPF on an interface that connected to the other router, and watch what happens. While this is going on, display either the live displays or prerecorded ones with comments on the classroom screen. Discuss with the class what they are seeing. - During this exercise, people have been configuring within single areas. I may then ask them, on their own, to establish full connectivity within their areas, but not to bring up backbone interfaces. -- Now, again walk through the process of inter-area connectivity. -- Do some form of summarization -- Take a break or lunch, during which I break some of the configurations and make it a troubleshooting exercise on their return ** Several writers of study guides (e.g., Satterlee and Hutnik) do things along these lines. Other vendors of scenarios provide varying amounts of study materials -- perhaps no more than links to the documentation CD -- but do not immediately start with a CCIE-like multiprotocol lab. ** There is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WRONG with writing CCIE-like multiprotool labs. Just know they serve a different learning objective than the CCIE practice lab. I for one would love to see some interaction between the various purveyors of CCIE Lab prep materials regarding their products and the thought processess behind them. Not a sales pitch, but rather a discussion of the kinds of things that are included in their labs, why, and what skill set they believe is necssary for the attainment of the CCIE. As I said privately, I don't know how much ice anything I say might cut, as I have not succeeded as yet. But if I were asked today, I would say that there are just a couple of keys - mastery of the core topics which are pretty much discernable from any of the practice lab workbooks, or from Caslow, and then also a GOOD Lab methodology, or game plan. I can't say much about the core topics publicly because it could be construedas an NDA violation, but anything regarding game plan is fair game. Caslow's methodology is brilliant, although, as he suggests, it's much like the organization of a graduate school seminar (flash back to CCIE vs. degree discussion). My approach uses some of those same skills, but also uses a lot of the what problem are you trying to solve. I recognize that CCIE is not a design test, but I do think the ability to abstract the process independently of the configuration is very useful. BTW, I am not so sure I agree that lab writing is a CCIE skill set. I'd like you to elaborate more on why you believe that the ability to write a good lab is indicative of CCIE level skill. Maybe some other folks have some thoughts on this as well. Well,
Re: Boson Exam for CIPT [7:59924]
Howard, I second the vote for a discussion.. assuming all parties can keep it civil and not have degenerate into the *mine is better then yours*... I know different vendors have different goals and ways to obtain the goals with their products. It would interesting to hear about the differences. MikeS -- Tutorials - Whitepapers - Security - Wireless- News Find me at www-dot-packetattack-dot-com Lan Wong wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Greetings, I am currently preparing for the CIPT Exam and was wondering if someone can suggest the best Boson exam to use for this test. Thanks in advance _ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 3 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmailxAPID=42PS=47575PI=7324DI=747 4SU= http://www.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-bin/getmsgHL=1216hotmailtaglines_smartspampr otection_3mf Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=59963t=59924 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Boson Exam for CIPT [7:59924]
We should also ask developers how they test their labs. An untested lab won't work. Most developers learn this the hard way. I've worked with many developers who have learned it the hard way over and over and over again and still insist on creating lab steps that they don't test. It won't work for at least two reasons: The commands won't work as expected. The instructions to the human won't work as expected. In a course development class I took a few years ago, the instructor had us try a fun experiment. We teamed up in pairs. One person in each pair made a snowflake by folding and cutting a piece of paper, like we probably all did in kindergarten. This person also wrote instructions on how the other person could create an identical snowflake. The developer handed over the instructions and was not allowed to say a word while the tester tried it out. As you can imagine, no two snowflakes came out the same! The human tended to do all sorts of things that the course developer didn't expect. Add that to the fact that the hardware and software will do unexpected things also, and you will understand my axiom: An untested lab will not work. Priscilla MikeS wrote: Howard, I second the vote for a discussion.. assuming all parties can keep it civil and not have degenerate into the *mine is better then yours*... I know different vendors have different goals and ways to obtain the goals with their products. It would interesting to hear about the differences. MikeS -- Tutorials - Whitepapers - Security - Wireless- News Find me at www-dot-packetattack-dot-com Lan Wong wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Greetings, I am currently preparing for the CIPT Exam and was wondering if someone can suggest the best Boson exam to use for this test. Thanks in advance _ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 3 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmailxAPID=42PS=47575PI=7324DI=747 4SU= http://www.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-bin/getmsgHL=1216hotmailtaglines_smartspampr otection_3mf Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=59985t=59924 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Boson Exam for CIPT [7:59924]
Priscilla Oppenheimer wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... We should also ask developers how they test their labs. An untested lab won't work. Most developers learn this the hard way. I've worked with many developers who have learned it the hard way over and over and over again and still insist on creating lab steps that they don't test. It won't work for at least two reasons: The commands won't work as expected. The instructions to the human won't work as expected. In a course development class I took a few years ago, the instructor had us try a fun experiment. We teamed up in pairs. One person in each pair made a snowflake by folding and cutting a piece of paper, like we probably all did in kindergarten. This person also wrote instructions on how the other person could create an identical snowflake. The developer handed over the instructions and was not allowed to say a word while the tester tried it out. As you can imagine, no two snowflakes came out the same! The human tended to do all sorts of things that the course developer didn't expect. Add that to the fact that the hardware and software will do unexpected things also, and you will understand my axiom: An untested lab will not work. some of the tested ones don't either, but that's another story! :- Priscilla MikeS wrote: Howard, I second the vote for a discussion.. assuming all parties can keep it civil and not have degenerate into the *mine is better then yours*... I know different vendors have different goals and ways to obtain the goals with their products. It would interesting to hear about the differences. MikeS -- Tutorials - Whitepapers - Security - Wireless- News Find me at www-dot-packetattack-dot-com Lan Wong wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Greetings, I am currently preparing for the CIPT Exam and was wondering if someone can suggest the best Boson exam to use for this test. Thanks in advance _ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 3 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmailxAPID=42PS=47575PI=7324DI=747 4SU= http://www.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-bin/getmsgHL=1216hotmailtaglines_smartspampr otection_3mf Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=59995t=59924 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Boson Exam for CIPT [7:59924]
At 3:00 AM + 12/29/02, Lan Wong wrote: Greetings, I am currently preparing for the CIPT Exam and was wondering if someone can suggest the best Boson exam to use for this test. Thanks in advance For fairness to vendors, may I suggest that the answers to this question 1. Not be limited to Boson 2. Not come from the vendor I'll also throw out a general question. A post not long ago asked to compare the labs of one vendor versus another, and I am affiliated with one of the two. The question was which is better, and, if I responded, I would have said they really can't be compared directly, because they are designed for different learning objectives. Would such a comment from the designer be acceptable? In other words, no direct competitive analysis, but just a statement of the design philosophy? While I think such information would be useful, I'd rather not see it posted that trigering a series of mine is better than yours posts. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=59932t=59924 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Boson Exam for CIPT [7:59924]
Howard C. Berkowitz wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... At 3:00 AM + 12/29/02, Lan Wong wrote: Greetings, snip some things I'll also throw out a general question. A post not long ago asked to compare the labs of one vendor versus another, and I am affiliated with one of the two. The question was which is better, and, if I responded, I would have said they really can't be compared directly, because they are designed for different learning objectives. Would such a comment from the designer be acceptable? In other words, no direct competitive analysis, but just a statement of the design philosophy? While I think such information would be useful, I'd rather not see it posted that trigering a series of mine is better than yours posts. OK, Howard, I'll bite on this one, especially as seeing we had some conversation off line on this very topic. I for one would love to see some interaction between the various purveyors of CCIE Lab prep materials regarding their products and the thought processess behind them. Not a sales pitch, but rather a discussion of the kinds of things that are included in their labs, why, and what skill set they believe is necssary for the attainment of the CCIE. As I said privately, I don't know how much ice anything I say might cut, as I have not succeeded as yet. But if I were asked today, I would say that there are just a couple of keys - mastery of the core topics which are pretty much discernable from any of the practice lab workbooks, or from Caslow, and then also a GOOD Lab methodology, or game plan. I can't say much about the core topics publicly because it could be construedas an NDA violation, but anything regarding game plan is fair game. BTW, I am not so sure I agree that lab writing is a CCIE skill set. I'd like you to elaborate more on why you believe that the ability to write a good lab is indicative of CCIE level skill. Maybe some other folks have some thoughts on this as well. Hell, maybe Paul would let this particualr discussion cross post to the CCIE Lab list, where the vast majority of CCIE Lab candidates associate. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=59945t=59924 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Boson Exam for CIPT [7:59924]
Greetings, I am currently preparing for the CIPT Exam and was wondering if someone can suggest the best Boson exam to use for this test. Thanks in advance _ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 3 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmailxAPID=42PS=47575PI=7324DI=7474SU= http://www.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-bin/getmsgHL=1216hotmailtaglines_smartspamprotection_3mf Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=59924t=59924 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
