Re: Brief Review - Parkhurst's OSPF Book [7:60093]
Bob Sinclair wrote: > > Priscilla, > > Speaking of long-delayed Cisco course projects: have you seen > any word on > when we can expect a major rewrite to BCMSN? No, I haven't heard anything. New courses are still coming out of Cisco awfully slowly. Maybe they are still bogged down in processes and using instructional designers who aren't SMEs. I agree with Howard that the situation can get ugly when that is the only accepted model... Priscilla > > -Bob Sinclair > CCIE #10427 > > - Original Message - > From: "Priscilla Oppenheimer" > To: > Sent: Thursday, January 02, 2003 2:42 PM > Subject: RE: Brief Review - Parkhurst's OSPF Book [7:60093] > > > > The Long and Winding Road wrote: > > > > > > Howard attempted to get a discussion going earlier this week > > > about practice > > > lab design assumptions, something that has so far drawn > little > > > attention ( > > > as opposed to the CCIE versus college degree thread that > just > > > won't die ) > > > I'd kinda like to see a discussion of book writing / > training > > > material > > > writing design as well. I personally believe the Parkhurst > > > method, while > > > maybe not the be all and end all of study materials, packs a > > > lot more into > > > it's pages than most others I have read. I wish there were > more > > > like the two > > > Parkhurst books. > > > > Thanks for the book review. I can comment on book writing and > course > > development. In fact I did before too. My number one axiom is > that an > > untested lab will not work. The reason Parkhurst's books are > so good is > > because he obviously tested everything he discusses. > > > > Just like with networks and software, the most important > phases in book > and > > course development are at the beginning and end of the > project: design and > > testing. The worst books and courses are those that were > thrown together > > without much analysis up front. > > > > The process can be quite complicated. Masters degrees and > even PhDs are > > awarded in the instructional design field. But the process > can be > > streamlined also, and I think that Howard would agree, that > sometimes the > > instructional designer, education major types cause more > problems than > they > > solve. At one point Cisco's training department consisted > mostly of these > > types. You wouldn't believe how many projects can stuck in > the analysis > > phase and never got produced. The training department was > infamous for > > starting and never finishing projects. > > > > However, that aside, I still stick to my original statement > that the > design > > and testing are the most important aspects. A streamlined > design process > > consists of these steps: > > > > Learner analysis: who are they, what do they know already? > > Context analysis: where will the training take places, how > does it fit > into > > operational/business goals? > > Task analysis: This is the most important step. In this step, > the course > > developer talks to experts and people who have already > mastered the > material > > and skills and figures out the tasks and subtasks that they > do on the job. > > The developer determines the tasks and subtasks that the > learner must > master > > to move from current to desired levels of performance. > > Performance objectives: express what the learners will be > able to do in > > verifiable terms as a result of the training > > Criterion tests: create test items that verity the leaner has > learned > > Prototypes: design a prototype > > Expert verification: get it reviewed > > Learner verification: Very important step that verifies the > course or book > > works for the learner; always required for courses, usually > ignored for > > books unfortunately! ;-) > > Final production > > > > > > Back to Parkhurst: I belive his books work for you because he > analyzed the > > tasks required to pass CCIE and that's exactly what he > covers. He also did > a > > good job analyzing the learners needs and knowledge level and > those fit > your > > needs and knowledge level well, it sounds like. And, he > tested his > examples. > > His books might not work so well if they were given to > someone who doesn't > > fit his model of a learner or who isn't on the CCIE path. > > > > Also, as an asid
RE: Brief Review - Parkhurst's OSPF Book [7:60093]
At 7:42 PM + 1/2/03, Priscilla Oppenheimer wrote: >The Long and Winding Road wrote: >> >> Howard attempted to get a discussion going earlier this week >> about practice >> lab design assumptions, something that has so far drawn little >> attention ( >> as opposed to the CCIE versus college degree thread that just >> won't die ) >> I'd kinda like to see a discussion of book writing / training >> material >> writing design as well. I personally believe the Parkhurst >> method, while >> maybe not the be all and end all of study materials, packs a >> lot more into >> it's pages than most others I have read. I wish there were more >> like the two >> Parkhurst books. > >Thanks for the book review. I can comment on book writing and course >development. In fact I did before too. My number one axiom is that an >untested lab will not work. The reason Parkhurst's books are so good is >because he obviously tested everything he discusses. > >Just like with networks and software, the most important phases in book and >course development are at the beginning and end of the project: design and >testing. The worst books and courses are those that were thrown together >without much analysis up front. > >The process can be quite complicated. Masters degrees and even PhDs are >awarded in the instructional design field. But the process can be >streamlined also, and I think that Howard would agree, that sometimes the >instructional designer, education major types cause more problems than they >solve. At one point Cisco's training department consisted mostly of these >types. You wouldn't believe how many projects can stuck in the analysis >phase and never got produced. The training department was infamous for >starting and never finishing projects. It's a widespread phenomenon. People from instructional design backgrounds, sometimes condescendingly, speak of "SMEs" -- subject matter experts -- who they will call on as they feel they need them. Now, don't get me wrong. Instructional design has some valuable techniques. But my own feeling is that to develop a course or major book, the person in charge needs to have subject matter, instructional, and, for courseware, project management experience. When I'm running such a project, I have no hesitation going to an instructional designer, a statistician, a specialized subject matter expert, etc., and both listening seriously to them and respecting their contribution. There do exist good instructional designers, but they have a regrettable tendency to get more involved in process than in substance. When I was primarily a course developer (and secondarily an instructor) at Geotrain, my manager, an instructional designer, literally gave me a bad review because I knew too much about the technology, and would write courseware myself rather than call on SMEs -- who had no budget for the extra work -- to contribute material that would then be edited by the instructional people. It was far faster for me to define requirements, write the courseware, and send it for technical review than to go through multiple iterations of requirements with a harassed engineer. It's very hard for some instructional specialists to recognize that an engineer can be a good writer and curriculum designer. I don't know if they are taught this, or it's a threat to them. Some of the processes get ridiculous -- with more than one set of such people, I've written a list of quite readable learning objectives, but had them rejected because each objective did not begin with an "action verb." Another aspect comes from test writing, when courseware is turned over to professional question writers with no knowledge of the subject matter. They tend to pick out easily testable factoids rather than significant bits of knowledge. It's also important to have someone other than the author test labs, so the there are no internal assumptions that the instructions are "intuitively obvious." In other words, every educational production project is a team effort, and the makeup of the team means mutual respect, and recognition of the real skills of the real people involved. Sometimes, an instructional designer should lead the effort, especially at the more beginner levels. In other cases, an engineer with instructional skills should lead, but use the instructional designer as a resource for optimizing the presentation techniques. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=60126&t=60093 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Brief Review - Parkhurst's OSPF Book [7:60093]
Priscilla, Speaking of long-delayed Cisco course projects: have you seen any word on when we can expect a major rewrite to BCMSN? -Bob Sinclair CCIE #10427 - Original Message - From: "Priscilla Oppenheimer" To: Sent: Thursday, January 02, 2003 2:42 PM Subject: RE: Brief Review - Parkhurst's OSPF Book [7:60093] > The Long and Winding Road wrote: > > > > Howard attempted to get a discussion going earlier this week > > about practice > > lab design assumptions, something that has so far drawn little > > attention ( > > as opposed to the CCIE versus college degree thread that just > > won't die ) > > I'd kinda like to see a discussion of book writing / training > > material > > writing design as well. I personally believe the Parkhurst > > method, while > > maybe not the be all and end all of study materials, packs a > > lot more into > > it's pages than most others I have read. I wish there were more > > like the two > > Parkhurst books. > > Thanks for the book review. I can comment on book writing and course > development. In fact I did before too. My number one axiom is that an > untested lab will not work. The reason Parkhurst's books are so good is > because he obviously tested everything he discusses. > > Just like with networks and software, the most important phases in book and > course development are at the beginning and end of the project: design and > testing. The worst books and courses are those that were thrown together > without much analysis up front. > > The process can be quite complicated. Masters degrees and even PhDs are > awarded in the instructional design field. But the process can be > streamlined also, and I think that Howard would agree, that sometimes the > instructional designer, education major types cause more problems than they > solve. At one point Cisco's training department consisted mostly of these > types. You wouldn't believe how many projects can stuck in the analysis > phase and never got produced. The training department was infamous for > starting and never finishing projects. > > However, that aside, I still stick to my original statement that the design > and testing are the most important aspects. A streamlined design process > consists of these steps: > > Learner analysis: who are they, what do they know already? > Context analysis: where will the training take places, how does it fit into > operational/business goals? > Task analysis: This is the most important step. In this step, the course > developer talks to experts and people who have already mastered the material > and skills and figures out the tasks and subtasks that they do on the job. > The developer determines the tasks and subtasks that the learner must master > to move from current to desired levels of performance. > Performance objectives: express what the learners will be able to do in > verifiable terms as a result of the training > Criterion tests: create test items that verity the leaner has learned > Prototypes: design a prototype > Expert verification: get it reviewed > Learner verification: Very important step that verifies the course or book > works for the learner; always required for courses, usually ignored for > books unfortunately! ;-) > Final production > > > Back to Parkhurst: I belive his books work for you because he analyzed the > tasks required to pass CCIE and that's exactly what he covers. He also did a > good job analyzing the learners needs and knowledge level and those fit your > needs and knowledge level well, it sounds like. And, he tested his examples. > His books might not work so well if they were given to someone who doesn't > fit his model of a learner or who isn't on the CCIE path. > > Also, as an aside, you like his book because it's not just a reiteration of > Cisco documentation, I'm guessing. That could take me into an entire new > tangent. I value creativity and uniqueness more than just about anything. > Some books really are just a copy and paste of others work. I find that > abhorrent. Some copying is OK. For example, Parkhust probably copied some > info about what each argument for each command means. But he added his own > analysis to it, and of more importance, he had a unique vision for his books > as ones that show how the commands really affect your network. > > OK, that's all for now! > > ___ > > Priscilla Oppenheimer > www.troubleshootingnetworks.com > www.priscilla.com > > > > > Chuck > > > > -- > > TANSTAAFL > > "there ain't no such thing as a free lunch" Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=60123&t=60093 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Brief Review - Parkhurst's OSPF Book [7:60093]
The Long and Winding Road wrote: > > Howard attempted to get a discussion going earlier this week > about practice > lab design assumptions, something that has so far drawn little > attention ( > as opposed to the CCIE versus college degree thread that just > won't die ) > I'd kinda like to see a discussion of book writing / training > material > writing design as well. I personally believe the Parkhurst > method, while > maybe not the be all and end all of study materials, packs a > lot more into > it's pages than most others I have read. I wish there were more > like the two > Parkhurst books. Thanks for the book review. I can comment on book writing and course development. In fact I did before too. My number one axiom is that an untested lab will not work. The reason Parkhurst's books are so good is because he obviously tested everything he discusses. Just like with networks and software, the most important phases in book and course development are at the beginning and end of the project: design and testing. The worst books and courses are those that were thrown together without much analysis up front. The process can be quite complicated. Masters degrees and even PhDs are awarded in the instructional design field. But the process can be streamlined also, and I think that Howard would agree, that sometimes the instructional designer, education major types cause more problems than they solve. At one point Cisco's training department consisted mostly of these types. You wouldn't believe how many projects can stuck in the analysis phase and never got produced. The training department was infamous for starting and never finishing projects. However, that aside, I still stick to my original statement that the design and testing are the most important aspects. A streamlined design process consists of these steps: Learner analysis: who are they, what do they know already? Context analysis: where will the training take places, how does it fit into operational/business goals? Task analysis: This is the most important step. In this step, the course developer talks to experts and people who have already mastered the material and skills and figures out the tasks and subtasks that they do on the job. The developer determines the tasks and subtasks that the learner must master to move from current to desired levels of performance. Performance objectives: express what the learners will be able to do in verifiable terms as a result of the training Criterion tests: create test items that verity the leaner has learned Prototypes: design a prototype Expert verification: get it reviewed Learner verification: Very important step that verifies the course or book works for the learner; always required for courses, usually ignored for books unfortunately! ;-) Final production Back to Parkhurst: I belive his books work for you because he analyzed the tasks required to pass CCIE and that's exactly what he covers. He also did a good job analyzing the learners needs and knowledge level and those fit your needs and knowledge level well, it sounds like. And, he tested his examples. His books might not work so well if they were given to someone who doesn't fit his model of a learner or who isn't on the CCIE path. Also, as an aside, you like his book because it's not just a reiteration of Cisco documentation, I'm guessing. That could take me into an entire new tangent. I value creativity and uniqueness more than just about anything. Some books really are just a copy and paste of others work. I find that abhorrent. Some copying is OK. For example, Parkhust probably copied some info about what each argument for each command means. But he added his own analysis to it, and of more importance, he had a unique vision for his books as ones that show how the commands really affect your network. OK, that's all for now! ___ Priscilla Oppenheimer www.troubleshootingnetworks.com www.priscilla.com > > Chuck > > -- > TANSTAAFL > "there ain't no such thing as a free lunch" > > Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=60120&t=60093 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Brief Review - Parkhurst's OSPF Book [7:60093]
Thanks Chuck , his book is a good reference guide for different scenarios and all the major commands used on OSPF , it explains the basic commands and why they are used , it does not go deep into OSPF over Frame Relay , redistribution, or OSPF with DLSW+ , etc, for OSPF simple labs I am using the following books , apart from the CCNP and CCO 1) William R Parkhurst 2) Hutnik 3)Karl Solie 4) FatKid labs 5) Ipexpert labs I would recommend these books/subscription for starters like me . Navin Parwal [EMAIL PROTECTED] ""The Long and Winding Road"" wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > I picked up William Parkhurst's book Cisco OSPF Command and Configuration > Handbook for the sole reason that I own and have used with great success his > BGP book of similar title. BGP has been my most successful section in the > CCIE lab twice now, with my most recent result being perfect, due entirely, > IMHO, to my thorough study of the BGP book. I believe I have a pretty good > understanding of the fundamentals of OSPF, but the biggest room in the world > being the room for improvement, I thought I might find some merit in the > OSPF book as well. > > So far I have not been disappointed. I have gone through several of the > chapters now, and I am finding the format, the methodology, and the examples > extremely conducive to my learning process. > > Some people can read RFC's and actually understand them. I struggle. Some > people can read the CCO configuration guides and comprehend. After a couple > of years, I still have mixed results. Parkhurst himself says in the > introductions to both books that documentation is the one thing in common > among all who experience frustration during the learning process - > specifically amount, clarity, and completeness. His books are his way of > addressing those shortcomings. > > Now it can't be easy writing this kind of a book. It is the result of a lot > of boring setup and example creation, along with innumerable screen shots of > actual router output. The work had to have been a grind after a while. Every > command is listed, along with each switch to that command. An explanation of > the command is given, followed by a stated purpose for the command. Then lab > configuration examples are given, booth before the execution of the command, > and after, so that you can see the result. If you are following along in > your home lab you can compare your result to the book result. > > the book is divided into chapters, each containing all the commands related > to a particular aspect of OSPF. For example, there are chapters on process > configuration, area commands, route filtering, timers, interface commands, > and summarization, to name a few. some chapters are obviously shorter or > longer than others. examples abound. many examples can be worked with only > two routers. no example I have seen as yet requires more than four routers, > although YMMV depending upon the numbers of interfaces of particular types. > > I've even found a couple of interesting things as a result of using the book > that I am unable to confirm or deny as a result of reading the > documentation. I plan on providing a documented example maybe this weekend, > when I turn things back on again. it revolves around authentication. > > the only disappointment I have so far is the coverage of OSPF over frame > relay. The basics are covered quite well. It does not appear to go into the > many variations that are possible. I will be spending some router time with > this section over the weekend as well. > > Howard attempted to get a discussion going earlier this week about practice > lab design assumptions, something that has so far drawn little attention ( > as opposed to the CCIE versus college degree thread that just won't die ) > I'd kinda like to see a discussion of book writing / training material > writing design as well. I personally believe the Parkhurst method, while > maybe not the be all and end all of study materials, packs a lot more into > it's pages than most others I have read. I wish there were more like the two > Parkhurst books. > > Chuck > > -- > TANSTAAFL > "there ain't no such thing as a free lunch" Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=60107&t=60093 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Brief Review - Parkhurst's OSPF Book [7:60093]
Hello Chuck I have read your review and it was so interesting that made me so happier since my CCNP exams. I passed my CCNP and have been lookin to learn more into BGP and OSPF. My search never went long engh since i dint have many of the working networking professionals around. Apart from which i had a couple of questions. 1) Are you a CCIE 2) with the current market in consideration - where would you put your money on - CCIE Security or R&S or ISP dial . 3) where do you get cheap lab equipment. becoz i wanna setup a lab as well. i recently migrated to australia and am curently on the lookout for a job. awaiting a reply cheers venu Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=60096&t=60093 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Brief Review - Parkhurst's OSPF Book [7:60093]
I picked up William Parkhurst's book Cisco OSPF Command and Configuration Handbook for the sole reason that I own and have used with great success his BGP book of similar title. BGP has been my most successful section in the CCIE lab twice now, with my most recent result being perfect, due entirely, IMHO, to my thorough study of the BGP book. I believe I have a pretty good understanding of the fundamentals of OSPF, but the biggest room in the world being the room for improvement, I thought I might find some merit in the OSPF book as well. So far I have not been disappointed. I have gone through several of the chapters now, and I am finding the format, the methodology, and the examples extremely conducive to my learning process. Some people can read RFC's and actually understand them. I struggle. Some people can read the CCO configuration guides and comprehend. After a couple of years, I still have mixed results. Parkhurst himself says in the introductions to both books that documentation is the one thing in common among all who experience frustration during the learning process - specifically amount, clarity, and completeness. His books are his way of addressing those shortcomings. Now it can't be easy writing this kind of a book. It is the result of a lot of boring setup and example creation, along with innumerable screen shots of actual router output. The work had to have been a grind after a while. Every command is listed, along with each switch to that command. An explanation of the command is given, followed by a stated purpose for the command. Then lab configuration examples are given, booth before the execution of the command, and after, so that you can see the result. If you are following along in your home lab you can compare your result to the book result. the book is divided into chapters, each containing all the commands related to a particular aspect of OSPF. For example, there are chapters on process configuration, area commands, route filtering, timers, interface commands, and summarization, to name a few. some chapters are obviously shorter or longer than others. examples abound. many examples can be worked with only two routers. no example I have seen as yet requires more than four routers, although YMMV depending upon the numbers of interfaces of particular types. I've even found a couple of interesting things as a result of using the book that I am unable to confirm or deny as a result of reading the documentation. I plan on providing a documented example maybe this weekend, when I turn things back on again. it revolves around authentication. the only disappointment I have so far is the coverage of OSPF over frame relay. The basics are covered quite well. It does not appear to go into the many variations that are possible. I will be spending some router time with this section over the weekend as well. Howard attempted to get a discussion going earlier this week about practice lab design assumptions, something that has so far drawn little attention ( as opposed to the CCIE versus college degree thread that just won't die ) I'd kinda like to see a discussion of book writing / training material writing design as well. I personally believe the Parkhurst method, while maybe not the be all and end all of study materials, packs a lot more into it's pages than most others I have read. I wish there were more like the two Parkhurst books. Chuck -- TANSTAAFL "there ain't no such thing as a free lunch" Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=60093&t=60093 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
