RE: Prolonged BS Vs. CCNP ? Another alternative [7:69963]
At 7:35 AM + 6/2/03, n rf wrote: Howard C. Berkowitz wrote: Another aspect that hasn't been discussed is the whole area of other skill sets, other than perhaps server skills and general management (MBA-ish). Now, I'll challenge the assumption of some people that say they don't want to be engineers and haul boxes around for their whole careers. Engineers do lots of things that don't involve hauling boxes, such as design, product management, presales, etc. Engineer != support technician. I would submit that all these alternatives are more easily achieved with a degree than with a cert. Things like presales, design, product-management and the like all require soft-skills that are better addressed via a degree program but are addressed poorly, if at all, by a cert program. I don't necessarily disagree with the above. But, the reason I changed the thread title slightly is that _my_ central point is that a work-study degree may be the best of all worlds early in a career, since it allows both. Degree programs are not necessarily the best for soft skills, or at least some of the technical degree programs. I remember telling a computer science professor in a graduate program that if I started programming his sloppy way, I'd get fired. If one attends the IETF, one will find the presentation skills often to be very deficient. The IETF is a very mixed bag, with dropouts and PhD's getting respect on their accomplishments rather than their credentials. Realistic network design doesn't usually enter undergraduate programs of any sort. Quite frankly, in later career, personal networking and one's experience (including things such as publications) may be more important than either. Self-education, beyond the scope of the degree or cert, also is important. While my original academic work was in biochemistry, most of my medical knowledge was acquired less formally. I have an extremely successful friend who is a consultant to the brokerage industry -- his main training was as a Navy sonar technician, but he now has a deep understanding of financial operations. Therefore the central point still stands - the degree gives you greater overall career flexibility than a cert will. No industry field outside the very narrow confines of network engineering gives much credence to the value of a Cisco cert, but every field values the degree. So the real question a person who chooses to forgo the degree in favor of Cisco certs has to ask himself is whether he is absolutely sure that he wants to do Cisco networking for the rest of his life, or does the possibility exist that he might want to do something else when he gets older? Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=69992t=69963 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Prolonged BS Vs. CCNP ? Another alternative [7:69963]
Something I haven't seen discussed in this thread, which would be most appropriate for people early in their careers, is an engineering work-study program. In such programs, you typically take an extra year total, with some paid and topical jobs for 2-3 semesters and maybe the summers. The work component, if properly selected, should give you the hands-on background for certification. You also come out of the program with a technical BS degree. Long before there was certification, work-study graduates consistently get better starting jobs, because they have demonstrated both theoretical and practical skills. Another aspect that hasn't been discussed is the whole area of other skill sets, other than perhaps server skills and general management (MBA-ish). Now, I'll challenge the assumption of some people that say they don't want to be engineers and haul boxes around for their whole careers. Engineers do lots of things that don't involve hauling boxes, such as design, product management, presales, etc. Engineer != support technician. Without false modesty, I'll say I am one of the bettter RS people around, with operational, product development, and research experience. Yet I'm probably getting more work right now because I have a very solid, mostly self-taught medical and emergency services background, which the networking complements. Having industry-specific knowledge, whether degreed or certified, is a strong plus. I notice people here who have become tired of one career and switch to networking, but don't necessarily take advantage of their knowledge and personal skills in their old industry. Offhand, I can think of people with legal, construction, and financial backgrounds. All of these have network technology opportunities if you make efforts to know the right people. And that sort of personal networking is key. In a city of any real size, there should be professional societies such as ACM and IEEE, preferably the subgroups of ACM SIGCOMM, IEEE Computer Society, and IEEE Communications Society. There are online groups, such as IETF technology mailing lists (do lurk for a couple of months until you learn the culture). Recently, I've been developing some very useful contacts with emergency service/homeland security online lists and chats. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=69963t=69963 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Prolonged BS Vs. CCNP ? Another alternative [7:69963]
Howard C. Berkowitz wrote: Another aspect that hasn't been discussed is the whole area of other skill sets, other than perhaps server skills and general management (MBA-ish). Now, I'll challenge the assumption of some people that say they don't want to be engineers and haul boxes around for their whole careers. Engineers do lots of things that don't involve hauling boxes, such as design, product management, presales, etc. Engineer != support technician. I would submit that all these alternatives are more easily achieved with a degree than with a cert. Things like presales, design, product-management and the like all require soft-skills that are better addressed via a degree program but are addressed poorly, if at all, by a cert program. Therefore the central point still stands - the degree gives you greater overall career flexibility than a cert will. No industry field outside the very narrow confines of network engineering gives much credence to the value of a Cisco cert, but every field values the degree. So the real question a person who chooses to forgo the degree in favor of Cisco certs has to ask himself is whether he is absolutely sure that he wants to do Cisco networking for the rest of his life, or does the possibility exist that he might want to do something else when he gets older? Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=69975t=69963 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
