[CITTERN] Re: Traditional British (plucked) instruments

[Brad McEwen]

David:
   
  Well, I could be wrong, but since bowed instruments are more recent that 
plucked, it would seem that way.  The crowd is one of those many instruments 
that (I believe) evolved from the Greek Kithara and are known throughout Europe 
by various names..zither, citera, etc (ha ha).  The same root word gave us 
guitar and cittern.
   
  Someone along the way decided to try bowing a crowd (crwth) and the bowed 
instrument associated with Wales evolved fro that.
   
  That's what I think happened, anyway.
   
  Brad

David Cushman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hi Brad, 
   
  Thanks for the clarification - I had understood the evolution to have gone 
the other direction (evolving from other northern european bowed lyres).  It is 
quite a tangle, isn't it?
  
Best regards,
   
  David


  On Sat, Apr 5, 2008 at 12:37 PM, Brad McEwen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hi:
   
  it si my understanding tha the original medaeival crowd from which the 
bowed Welsh crwth derived, was a plucked instrument.
   
  Brad   

David Cushman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Hi All,

I have done a little research into the crwth and it is indeed a bowed
instrument that survives in Wales. There is a group called Bragod who have
done some research into the instrument and have some novel ideas about it.
It is generally tuned Pythagorean and musically makes use of lots of drone
notes to support a melody line. Check out this site for a little video
background:

http://www.bragod.com/4crwthhar.html

There are a couple of sources for the crwth (also seen in literary
references as croud or crowd):

http://larkinthemorning.com/product.asp?pn=EAR035ss=crwth

http://www.michaeljking.com/crwth.htm

A bit off from the main thread topic, but hopefully of interest.

--David




  On Sat, Apr 5, 2008 at 2:09 AM, Stuart Walsh wrote:

 Damien, I'm sure other people will disagree with me, so I'll send this to
 the cittern list! (also: the 'crwth' is a bowed instrument, not plucked)


 Damien Delgrossi wrote:

 
I am suprised to read you saying that UK doesn't have plucked
instruments traditions. What about banjos? and pictures showing popular
mandolin played by folk performers long long time ago? Are you sure of 
what
you said?
   
  
   Stuart wrote:

  I think so. In the 1950s, some folk singers used pianos as
   accompaniment! The guitar - as an accompaniment to folk songs - is from
   the 1960s. The traditional folk songs collected from the 19th century were
   all sung unaccompanied. The only genuine folk string instrument (apart 
   from
   fiddles) is the hammered dulcimer.
  
   Banjos, guitars and mandolins have been around in Britain since the
   late 19th century. But not playing traditional folk music. They played
   popular tunes and popular 'folk' tunes (only a distant relation to
   traditional folk music) and bits of classical music.
  
   Nowadays, many folk players players play modern citterns, flat-backed
   bouzoukis, mandolins and mandolas etc. But this is all from the 1960s and
   1970s.
  
   There are no plucked instruments in traditional Irish music either
   (before the last few decades).
  
   Stuart
  
   Good morning Stuart,

 It is very interesting what you wrote. I understand well the difference
 you do between folk popular tune and traditional music. People often don't
 do the same and think that popular tune are always traditional. You're right
 when you say that is not.

 So the only plucked instrument traditional is the medieval crwth from
 Wales in the 9th century?

 Regards,

 Damien



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[CITTERN] Re: Traditional British (plucked) instruments

[Doc Rossi]

Related to this topic, there will be an article about the influence of  
art music on traditional music in the Summer 2008 issue of Fiddler  
Magazine [ http://www.fiddle.com/ ], written by Andrew Kuntz, who is  
responsible for The Fiddler’s Companion website. http://www.ibiblio.org/fiddlers/index.html


I've read it and it's quite interesting and well researched.  Like  
Frank said in an earlier post, he points out that the boundaries  
between classical, popular and traditional music were much more  
permeable prior to the 20th century, at which time widening gaps  
between the genres became chasms. Earlier there was much less  
distinction between what was considered art music and what was popular  
or even traditional, especially during the 18th and early 19th  
centuries.



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[CITTERN] Re: Traditional British (plucked) instruments

[Stuart Walsh]

Doc Rossi wrote:
Related to this topic, there will be an article about the influence of 
art music on traditional music in the Summer 2008 issue of Fiddler 
Magazine [ http://www.fiddle.com/ ], written by Andrew Kuntz, who is 
responsible for The Fiddler’s Companion website. 
http://www.ibiblio.org/fiddlers/index.html


I've read it and it's quite interesting and well researched.  Like 
Frank said in an earlier post, he points out that the boundaries 
between classical, popular and traditional music were much more 
permeable prior to the 20th century, at which time widening gaps 
between the genres became chasms. Earlier there was much less 
distinction between what was considered art music and what was popular 
or even traditional, especially during the 18th and early 19th 
centuries.


Yes, but the fact (if it really is a fact) that certain distinctions 
weren't made at an earlier time doesn't mean that the distinctions 
aren't nevertheless worth making. A folk tune collected by C.J Sharpe 
(or Bartok or whoever) around 1900 is very different from 'On the Banks 
of Allen Water' or 'Robin Adair' set for banjo or uke (etc) from the 
same period. The banjo/mando/uke/guitar arrangements of folk tunes (for 
a middle class audience) sit alongside Reveries, Marches, ballroom 
dances etc. The songs and tunes collected/documented by socially 
elevated enthusiasts right back to the early 19th century occupy a very 
different world.


Further back in time there's surely an important distinction between 
middle/upper class music about trothing shepherds and shepherdesses - 
courtly or bourgeois songs and dances with pastoral/Arcadian themes on 
the one hand  and whatever it was that 'masses' (including shepherds and 
shepherdesses) could possibly have sung and danced on the other. The 
sophisticated variations for lute (or the later, clumsier ones for 
English guitar) of folk or folk-like tunes are not what the 'masses' 
could ever have played. (For a start the cost of a lute or cittern or 
English guitar..., the cost of the music, the ability to read)


Some of the Scottish lute/mandore settings seem to hint at a music that 
really is not the popular music of the  middle/upper class. But that  
might just be the ineptness of those who wrote the settings.


Stuart






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