Re: How to restrict the number of test with stest/check

['Burt' via Clojure]

Thanks!

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Re: Is this behavior of clojure.core/pr a bug?

[Blake Miller]

Er, I mean "built-in reader macro dispatch".

On Thursday, August 4, 2016 at 1:14:16 AM UTC, Blake Miller wrote:
>
> You're right, Dan. Having mulled it over a little more, it's not clear to 
> me why there ought to be any pure Clojure data (no Java objects) that 
> cannot be serialized as EDN. Emitting a #keyword reader literal for this 
> edge case would make sense to me.
>

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Re: Is this behavior of clojure.core/pr a bug?

[Blake Miller]

You're right, Dan. Having mulled it over a little more, it's not clear to 
me why there ought to be any pure Clojure data (no Java objects) that 
cannot be serialized as EDN. Emitting a #keyword reader literal for this 
edge case would make sense to me.

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Re: Is this behavior of clojure.core/pr a bug?

[Dan Burton]

Why not just have #keyword and #symbol reader syntax tags that pr could
produce for situations like this? It's really preferable that pr not throw
exceptions, but it's also quite an abomination that it silently produces
bad edn.

On Wednesday, August 3, 2016, Blake Miller  wrote:

> Thanks for that concise explanation, Sean. It makes sense to me that not
> all valid Clojure data is serializable.
>
> There's still something about this that doesn't quite make sense to me,
> though:
>
> clojure.core/pr, rather than throwing an exception when asked to serialize
> an instance of clojure.core.Keyword that cannot be serialized, it simply
> produces bad output. Bad = will cause the reader to throw.
>
> Wouldn't it be preferable for pr to throw in this case?
>
> The way I found out about this was the not-very-informative exception "Map
> literal must contain an even number of forms", because pr was fine with
> making a string that the reader wouldn't accept.
>
> Can anyone think of a good reason why pr should *not* throw an exception on
>
> (pr (keyword "foo bar"))
>
> since there's no way of expressing that keyword as valid EDN?
>
>
>
> On Thursday, August 4, 2016 at 12:16:47 AM UTC, Sean Corfield wrote:
>>
>> You can programmatically create keywords that are illegal as literals,
>> i.e., will not be accepted by the reader.
>>
>>
>>
>> This is not a fault of clojure.core/pr – if it is given a value that uses
>> legal (readable) keywords, its result will indeed be readable by
>> clojure.core/read-string.
>>
>>
>>
>> You can also programmatically create symbols that are illegal as far as
>> the reader is concerned.
>>
>>
>>
>> Sean Corfield -- (970) FOR-SEAN -- (904) 302-SEAN
>> An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/
>>
>> "If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive."
>> -- Margaret Atwood
>>
>>
>>
>> On 8/3/16, 4:37 PM, "Blake Miller" > blak3...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> I have tried this with Clojure 1.7.0, 1.8.0 and 1.9.0-alpha10
>>
>> (clojure.core/read-string (clojure.core/with-out-str (clojure.core/pr
>> (clojure.core/keyword "A valid keyword" ;; => :A
>>
>>
>> This just seems wrong. It's valid to have an instance of
>> clojure.lang.Keyword with a space in its name.
>>
>> (clojure.core/with-out-str (clojure.core/pr (clojure.core/keyword "A
>> valid keyword"))) => ":A valid keyword"
>>
>>
>>
>> So, it seems like clojure.core/pr and clojure.core/read-string disagree
>> about EDN.
>>
>>
>>
>> Is EDN formally specified? https://github.com/edn-format/edn/issues/56
>> seems to suggest it is not.
>>
>> I ran into this problem using ptaoussanis/sente to pass EDN over a
>> websocket. The EDN contained a keyword with a space in it, and the
>> clojure(jvm) part of sente had no problem serializing it, but the
>> ClojureScript part of sente barfed on it. I thought it was a bug in sente,
>> however sente simply calls clojure.core/pr to do the serialization... so I
>> played with pr vs read-string and found that they disagree.
>>
>>
>>
>> The serialization that clojure.core/pr does on a keyword with a space in
>> it seems broken to me:
>>
>>
>>
>> user> (clojure.core/with-out-str (clojure.core/pr {:onekey 1
>>
>>(clojure.core/keyword
>> "two key") 2}))
>>
>> "{:onekey 1, :two key 2}"
>>
>> There doesn't seem to be any way to parse that unambiguously.
>>
>> I think this is a bug. What do you think?
>>
>>
>> https://github.com/ptaoussanis/sente/issues/251
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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Re: Is this behavior of clojure.core/pr a bug?

[Blake Miller]

Thanks for that concise explanation, Sean. It makes sense to me that not 
all valid Clojure data is serializable.

There's still something about this that doesn't quite make sense to me, 
though:

clojure.core/pr, rather than throwing an exception when asked to serialize 
an instance of clojure.core.Keyword that cannot be serialized, it simply 
produces bad output. Bad = will cause the reader to throw.

Wouldn't it be preferable for pr to throw in this case?

The way I found out about this was the not-very-informative exception "Map 
literal must contain an even number of forms", because pr was fine with 
making a string that the reader wouldn't accept.

Can anyone think of a good reason why pr should *not* throw an exception on

(pr (keyword "foo bar"))

since there's no way of expressing that keyword as valid EDN?



On Thursday, August 4, 2016 at 12:16:47 AM UTC, Sean Corfield wrote:
>
> You can programmatically create keywords that are illegal as literals, 
> i.e., will not be accepted by the reader.
>
>  
>
> This is not a fault of clojure.core/pr – if it is given a value that uses 
> legal (readable) keywords, its result will indeed be readable by 
> clojure.core/read-string.
>
>  
>
> You can also programmatically create symbols that are illegal as far as 
> the reader is concerned.
>
>  
>
> Sean Corfield -- (970) FOR-SEAN -- (904) 302-SEAN
> An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/
>
> "If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive."
> -- Margaret Atwood
>
>  
>
> On 8/3/16, 4:37 PM, "Blake Miller"  
> on behalf of blak3...@gmail.com > wrote:
>
>  
>
> I have tried this with Clojure 1.7.0, 1.8.0 and 1.9.0-alpha10
>
> (clojure.core/read-string (clojure.core/with-out-str (clojure.core/pr 
> (clojure.core/keyword "A valid keyword" ;; => :A
>
>
> This just seems wrong. It's valid to have an instance of 
> clojure.lang.Keyword with a space in its name.
>
> (clojure.core/with-out-str (clojure.core/pr (clojure.core/keyword "A valid 
> keyword"))) => ":A valid keyword"
>
>  
>
> So, it seems like clojure.core/pr and clojure.core/read-string disagree 
> about EDN.
>
>  
>
> Is EDN formally specified? https://github.com/edn-format/edn/issues/56 
> seems to suggest it is not.
>
> I ran into this problem using ptaoussanis/sente to pass EDN over a 
> websocket. The EDN contained a keyword with a space in it, and the 
> clojure(jvm) part of sente had no problem serializing it, but the 
> ClojureScript part of sente barfed on it. I thought it was a bug in sente, 
> however sente simply calls clojure.core/pr to do the serialization... so I 
> played with pr vs read-string and found that they disagree.
>
>  
>
> The serialization that clojure.core/pr does on a keyword with a space in 
> it seems broken to me:
>
>  
>
> user> (clojure.core/with-out-str (clojure.core/pr {:onekey 1
>
>(clojure.core/keyword 
> "two key") 2}))
>
> "{:onekey 1, :two key 2}"
>
> There doesn't seem to be any way to parse that unambiguously.
>
> I think this is a bug. What do you think?
>
>
> https://github.com/ptaoussanis/sente/issues/251
>
>  
>
>  
>
>

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Re: Is this behavior of clojure.core/pr a bug?

[Sean Corfield]

You can programmatically create keywords that are illegal as literals, i.e., 
will not be accepted by the reader.

 

This is not a fault of clojure.core/pr – if it is given a value that uses legal 
(readable) keywords, its result will indeed be readable by 
clojure.core/read-string.

 

You can also programmatically create symbols that are illegal as far as the 
reader is concerned.

 

Sean Corfield -- (970) FOR-SEAN -- (904) 302-SEAN
An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/

"If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive."
-- Margaret Atwood

 

On 8/3/16, 4:37 PM, "Blake Miller"  wrote:

 

I have tried this with Clojure 1.7.0, 1.8.0 and 1.9.0-alpha10

(clojure.core/read-string (clojure.core/with-out-str (clojure.core/pr 
(clojure.core/keyword "A valid keyword" ;; => :A


This just seems wrong. It's valid to have an instance of clojure.lang.Keyword 
with a space in its name.

(clojure.core/with-out-str (clojure.core/pr (clojure.core/keyword "A valid 
keyword"))) => ":A valid keyword"

 

So, it seems like clojure.core/pr and clojure.core/read-string disagree about 
EDN.

 

Is EDN formally specified? https://github.com/edn-format/edn/issues/56 seems to 
suggest it is not.

I ran into this problem using ptaoussanis/sente to pass EDN over a websocket. 
The EDN contained a keyword with a space in it, and the clojure(jvm) part of 
sente had no problem serializing it, but the ClojureScript part of sente barfed 
on it. I thought it was a bug in sente, however sente simply calls 
clojure.core/pr to do the serialization... so I played with pr vs read-string 
and found that they disagree.

 

The serialization that clojure.core/pr does on a keyword with a space in it 
seems broken to me:

 

user> (clojure.core/with-out-str (clojure.core/pr {:onekey 1

   (clojure.core/keyword "two 
key") 2}))

"{:onekey 1, :two key 2}"

There doesn't seem to be any way to parse that unambiguously.

I think this is a bug. What do you think?


https://github.com/ptaoussanis/sente/issues/251

 

 

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Re: Is this behavior of clojure.core/pr a bug?

[Blake Miller]

Thanks, Timothy. I'll give transit a try.

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Re: Is this behavior of clojure.core/pr a bug?

[Blake Miller]

The docstring of clojure.core/pr

https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/clojure-1.7.0/src/clj/clojure/core.clj#L3552-L3555

actually says (in lieu of a formal EDN specification?)

"pr and prn print in a way that objects can be read by the reader"

...and the example I showed appears to violate that. Here's a minimal 
failing case:

user> (read-string (with-out-str (pr {(clojure.core/keyword "key word") 
1})) )
RuntimeException Map literal must contain an even number of forms 
 clojure.lang.Util.runtimeException (Util.java:221)

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Re: Is this behavior of clojure.core/pr a bug?

[Timothy Baldridge]

I highly suggest using transit. It's much faster and formally specified.
https://github.com/cognitect/transit-format

It's issues like this that caused the creation of transit in the first
place.

On Wednesday, August 3, 2016, Blake Miller  wrote:

> I have tried this with Clojure 1.7.0, 1.8.0 and 1.9.0-alpha10
>
> (clojure.core/read-string (clojure.core/with-out-str (clojure.core/pr
> (clojure.core/keyword "A valid keyword" ;; => :A
>
> This just seems wrong. It's valid to have an instance of
> clojure.lang.Keyword with a space in its name.
>
> (clojure.core/with-out-str (clojure.core/pr (clojure.core/keyword "A valid
> keyword"))) => ":A valid keyword"
>
> So, it seems like clojure.core/pr and clojure.core/read-string disagree
> about EDN.
>
> Is EDN formally specified? https://github.com/edn-format/edn/issues/56
> seems to suggest it is not.
>
> I ran into this problem using ptaoussanis/sente to pass EDN over a
> websocket. The EDN contained a keyword with a space in it, and the
> clojure(jvm) part of sente had no problem serializing it, but the
> ClojureScript part of sente barfed on it. I thought it was a bug in sente,
> however sente simply calls clojure.core/pr to do the serialization... so I
> played with pr vs read-string and found that they disagree.
>
> The serialization that clojure.core/pr does on a keyword with a space in
> it seems broken to me:
>
> user> (clojure.core/with-out-str (clojure.core/pr {:onekey 1
>(clojure.core/keyword
> "two key") 2}))
> "{:onekey 1, :two key 2}"
>
> There doesn't seem to be any way to parse that unambiguously.
>
> I think this is a bug. What do you think?
>
> https://github.com/ptaoussanis/sente/issues/251
>
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Is this behavior of clojure.core/pr a bug?

[Blake Miller]

I have tried this with Clojure 1.7.0, 1.8.0 and 1.9.0-alpha10

(clojure.core/read-string (clojure.core/with-out-str (clojure.core/pr 
(clojure.core/keyword "A valid keyword" ;; => :A

This just seems wrong. It's valid to have an instance of 
clojure.lang.Keyword with a space in its name.

(clojure.core/with-out-str (clojure.core/pr (clojure.core/keyword "A valid 
keyword"))) => ":A valid keyword"

So, it seems like clojure.core/pr and clojure.core/read-string disagree 
about EDN.

Is EDN formally specified? https://github.com/edn-format/edn/issues/56 
seems to suggest it is not.

I ran into this problem using ptaoussanis/sente to pass EDN over a 
websocket. The EDN contained a keyword with a space in it, and the 
clojure(jvm) part of sente had no problem serializing it, but the 
ClojureScript part of sente barfed on it. I thought it was a bug in sente, 
however sente simply calls clojure.core/pr to do the serialization... so I 
played with pr vs read-string and found that they disagree.

The serialization that clojure.core/pr does on a keyword with a space in it 
seems broken to me:

user> (clojure.core/with-out-str (clojure.core/pr {:onekey 1
   (clojure.core/keyword 
"two key") 2}))
"{:onekey 1, :two key 2}"

There doesn't seem to be any way to parse that unambiguously.

I think this is a bug. What do you think?

https://github.com/ptaoussanis/sente/issues/251

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Re: Frustrations so far

[Stuart Halloway]

Hi Peter,

The latest release of Datomic (0.9.5390) includes the addition of the Log
API for memory-backed databases.
https://groups.google.com/d/topic/datomic/QLdZ_WePR5A/discussion.

Hope this and some of other items on this thread will combine to improve
your experience with Clojure.

Regards,
Stu

On Wed, Jul 20, 2016 at 8:49 AM, Peter Romfeld 
wrote:

> I really love clojure over all, it makes maintenance/collaboration of code
> such a breeze. its easy to get new employees start to work on it even
> without any previous clojure knowledge!
>
> I do hate the JVM startup shit, i hate how you it takes forever to fetch
> deps on a aws medium instance (you probably can fix it with uberjars)
> Im frustrated with `empty?` throwing exceptions for Long and Keyword
> Not complete clojure, but i hate datomic.api/log since you cant put into
> your tests with a in-mem db
> I had some issues understanding that maps of certain size are not in order
> anymore because of the underlying java functions and optimizations
> Im a bit upset about development reload with defrecords
> most of the things that are not documented by the community are documented
> very cryptic and hard to understand
> the api docs are almost useless! - to get the arrity and stuff.. wtf i
> still have no clue how to use this new function i never used before...
> security features in most frameworks are just smoke and mirrors, functions
> that dont actually do what they should do...
>
> anyways, if i remember more i can add...
> just wanted to give you guys some input, and looking forward to make
> development experience even better!
>
> cheers,
> peter
>
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Re: How to restrict the number of test with stest/check

[Alex Miller]

As the docstring for check notes:

"The opts map includes the following optional keys, where stc
aliases clojure.spec.test.check:

::stc/opts  opts to flow through test.check/quick-check
:genmap from spec names to generator overrides"

So the opts map would be like:

(stest/check `myfunc {:clojure.spec.test.check/opts {:num-tests 2}})


On Wednesday, August 3, 2016 at 9:34:11 AM UTC-5, Burt wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> (stest/check `myfunc) runs very, very long
>
> so i tried
>
> (stest/check `myfunc {:num-tests 2})
>
> but unfortunately that does not restrict the number of test.
>
> Can anybody help?
>
> Kind regards, Burt
>

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ANN: EuroClojure Call for Presentations end this Friday!

[Lynn Grogan]

There are two more days to submit a talk to EuroClojure!


Here are the details...

EuroClojure

Event date: October 25-26, 2016

Location: Bratislava, Slovakia

Submission deadline: Friday, August 5

Call for presentations submission link 

Travel expenses covered:  

- Conference ticket

- Up to 3 nights in the conference hotel

- Up to $550 EUR

- In some circumstances we are also able to provide additional help

We’re also offering additional resources like proposal review, speaker 
mentorship, slide review, etc. You can find more details about this on the 
CfP website . 


Thanks! Lynn Grogan

EuroClojure Organizer

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Re: [ClojureScript] Re: Preparing proposal for presentation on replikativ

[Christian Weilbach]

@Daniel

> I would be very interested in learning about how to use replikativ:
> what can and can't it store, when is and isn't it a good fit,
> demo/sample code of common and not so common use cases etc
> I've looked at replikativ and even went down the "learn lots about
> CRDTs" rabbit hole and think I have an OK understanding of the
> theory, but I'm still not sure when and how to actually use
> replikativ. Although it's probably best to assume not everyone in the
> audience is familiar with CRDTs, so should probably include a brief
> primer.

Sure, recently there was a CRDT presence inclusion into the Phoenix web
framework for Elixir. So this would be to have simple backend
replication. I agree that the vision is still too broad for concrete
applications. I have mobile applications in mind, but Clojure for
Android doesn't work with core.async atm. The idea is to use it like a
simple in process Java-HashMap etc. For websites and node it works with
cljs, but still has some rough edges. Would this be interesting for you?

@Ashish


> Thanks for replikativ and asking suggestions. I would like to also
> know about general problems (both of domain and language) you faced
> while developing library, and how / how not clojure helped you ?

Ok. I guess this would be core.async error handling, kv-protocol with
konserve and hasch for crypto, stackwise. Helpful was the decomposition
of the stack and the ability to build a cross-platform stack with
core.async. Most parts were missing though, because usually people build
backends on top of JVM functionality/libs. In general as this is a data
management system, Clojure is a fitting language, but at some points the
nested untyped maps caused difficult debugging. I think this will be
better with spec now. On what level would you expect these arguments?

@Christopher

> 
> Would love to see this talk (embarrassed I still haven't watched the
> video you posted in Gitter though...).
> 
> As you'd suspect, I'm definitely like to see a good bit on
> DataScript/Datomic. Aside from that, I think a good focus on the
> strengths and weakness (/challenges/work-to-be-done) would be very
> informative, and help illustrate some of the implications of the
> approach. In particular, challenges in dealing with larg(ish) data sets
> and/or data that changes very frequently are very interesting.

Indeed. Ok, good to know. I wish I already had closer look at datsync
and how the two approaches could be integrated.

Thanks for pointing out,
Christian

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Re: ANN: Klipse for Kids

[Mars0i]

On Wednesday, August 3, 2016 at 6:00:43 AM UTC-5, Yehonathan Sharvit wrote:
>
> Mars0i, as I see it interactivity is the key for effective learning - both 
> for kids and adults.
>
> This is the whole point of Klipse - https://github.com/viebel/klipse.
>

Ah, very nice.  I know about Clojurescript browser repls, but doing it for 
the other languages is a Good Thing.

By the way, do you have any suggestion about how to make the errors less 
> daunting?
>

I've been using Clojure for a while, but only recently starting using 
Clojurescript.  Apparently, you can capture errors in Clojurescript in a 
similar way to the how it's done in Clojure.

http://stackoverflow.com/questions/12655503/how-to-catch-any-javascript-exception-in-clojurescript
https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/wiki/Exception-Handling

For example:

(try 
  (5 2) 
  (catch js/Object e "That didn't work."))

This returns the string at the end of the catch expression in the 
Clojurescript repl on my computer.  It returns nil at a Klipse prompt in 
kids.klipse.tech, so I'm not sure what else you'll have to do.

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How to restrict the number of test with stest/check

['Burt' via Clojure]

Hi,

(stest/check `myfunc) runs very, very long

so i tried

(stest/check `myfunc {:num-tests 2})

but unfortunately that does not restrict the number of test.

Can anybody help?

Kind regards, Burt

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Re: ANN: Klipse for Kids

[Yehonathan Sharvit]

Mars0i, as I see it interactivity is the key for effective learning - both 
for kids and adults.

This is the whole point of Klipse - https://github.com/viebel/klipse.

By the way, do you have any suggestion about how to make the errors less 
daunting?

On Tuesday, 2 August 2016 20:52:30 UTC+3, Mars0i wrote:
>
> This looks very, very nice.  The instant feedback is especially helpful.  
> (You are probably already working on is capturing errors to make them less 
> daunting.)
>
> Klipse reminded me of Carin Meier's beautiful and poignant Hello World 
> for the Next Generation. 
> 
>
> I always wondered whether *The Little Schemer* 
>  would work with kids. I 
> suspect not, until mid teens, at least.
>

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Re: ANN: Klipse for Kids

[Yehonathan Sharvit]

Thanks JvJ. I've fixed it.

On Tuesday, 2 August 2016 22:47:41 UTC+3, JvJ wrote:
>
> Pretty good.  However: In chapter 1, you might want to clear up the fact 
> that 7*8 is 7 x 8 early on.  Kids may not be familiar with the * as a 
> multiplication symbol.  I realize it's explained later, but it's better to 
> avoid confusion beforehand.
>
> On Tuesday, 2 August 2016 10:52:30 UTC-7, Mars0i wrote:
>>
>> This looks very, very nice.  The instant feedback is especially helpful.  
>> (You are probably already working on is capturing errors to make them less 
>> daunting.)
>>
>> Klipse reminded me of Carin Meier's beautiful and poignant Hello World 
>> for the Next Generation. 
>> 
>>
>> I always wondered whether *The Little Schemer* 
>>  would work with kids. I 
>> suspect not, until mid teens, at least.
>>
>

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Re: [ClojureScript] Re: Preparing proposal for presentation on replikativ

[Daniel Kersten]

I would be very interested in learning about how to use replikativ: what
can and can't it store, when is and isn't it a good fit, demo/sample code
of common and not so common use cases etc
I've looked at replikativ and even went down the "learn lots about CRDTs"
rabbit hole and think I have an OK understanding of the theory, but I'm
still not sure when and how to actually use replikativ.
Although it's probably best to assume not everyone in the audience is
familiar with CRDTs, so should probably include a brief primer.

On Wed 3 Aug 2016 at 05:46, Ashish Negi  wrote:

> Hi Christian
>
> Thanks for replikativ and asking suggestions.
> I would like to also know about general problems (both of domain and
> language) you faced while developing library,
> and how / how not clojure helped you ?
>
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>

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