Feedback on datafy/nav project

2020-01-30 Thread dimitris 

Hi folks,

I'm looking for honest and constructive feedback on [1] - not so much 
about the actual implementation (even though these are welcome too), but 
rather about the general idea of basing everything on top of (mirrored 
versions) `datafy` and `nav` (in this way). There is a TL;DR section at 
the very bottom that describes the approach in 4 short sentences.


Many thanks in advance,

Dimitris

[1]: https://github.com/jimpil/jedi-time


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RE: Feedback on datafy/nav project

2020-01-30 Thread Sean Corfield 
Is there a reason you’ve mirrored those protocols/implementations rather than 
just use Clojure’s built-in versions?

As it stands, your library wouldn’t work with other tooling that builds on 
Clojure’s datafy/nav (REBL, for example).

Sean Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN
An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/

"If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive."
-- Margaret Atwood

From: dimitris
Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2020 9:05 AM
To: Clojure
Subject: Feedback on datafy/nav project

Hi folks,

I'm looking for honest and constructive feedback on [1] - not so much 
about the actual implementation (even though these are welcome too), but 
rather about the general idea of basing everything on top of (mirrored 
versions) `datafy` and `nav` (in this way). There is a TL;DR section at 
the very bottom that describes the approach in 4 short sentences.

Many thanks in advance,

Dimitris

[1]: https://github.com/jimpil/jedi-time


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Re: Feedback on datafy/nav project

2020-01-30 Thread dimitris 
Well, the official Clojure guidelines are to NOT extend protocols, 
unless you own either the protocol of the type(s) [1].


In particular these lines:/
/

/If you are a library developer, you should not extend if you own 
neither the protocol nor the target./


/You should take particular care when extending protocols included with 
Clojure itself./


/
/

Kind regards,

Dimitris

[1]: https://clojure.org/reference/protocols#_extend_via_metadata


On 30/01/2020 17:50, Sean Corfield wrote:


Is there a reason you’ve mirrored those protocols/implementations 
rather than just use Clojure’s built-in versions?


As it stands, your library wouldn’t work with other tooling that 
builds on Clojure’s datafy/nav (REBL, for example).


Sean Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN
An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/

"If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive."
-- Margaret Atwood

*From: *dimitris 
*Sent: *Thursday, January 30, 2020 9:05 AM
*To: *Clojure 
*Subject: *Feedback on datafy/nav project

Hi folks,

I'm looking for honest and constructive feedback on [1] - not so much

about the actual implementation (even though these are welcome too), but

rather about the general idea of basing everything on top of (mirrored

versions) `datafy` and `nav` (in this way). There is a TL;DR section at

the very bottom that describes the approach in 4 short sentences.

Many thanks in advance,

Dimitris

[1]: https://github.com/jimpil/jedi-time

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Re: Feedback on datafy/nav project

2020-01-30 Thread dimitris 
Moreover, following the mailing discussion linked from the clojure.org 
site, leads to the following quote from Rich - about 10 years ago :)


/If a protocol comes with Clojure itself, avoid extending it to types //
//you don't own, especially e.g. java.lang.String and other core Java //
//interfaces. Rest assured if a protocol should extend to it, it will, //
//else lobby for it. /



On 30/01/2020 17:58, dimitris wrote:


Well, the official Clojure guidelines are to NOT extend protocols, 
unless you own either the protocol of the type(s) [1].


In particular these lines:/
/

/If you are a library developer, you should not extend if you own 
neither the protocol nor the target./


/You should take particular care when extending protocols included 
with Clojure itself./


/
/

Kind regards,

Dimitris

[1]: https://clojure.org/reference/protocols#_extend_via_metadata


On 30/01/2020 17:50, Sean Corfield wrote:


Is there a reason you’ve mirrored those protocols/implementations 
rather than just use Clojure’s built-in versions?


As it stands, your library wouldn’t work with other tooling that 
builds on Clojure’s datafy/nav (REBL, for example).


Sean Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN
An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/

"If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive."
-- Margaret Atwood

*From: *dimitris 
*Sent: *Thursday, January 30, 2020 9:05 AM
*To: *Clojure 
*Subject: *Feedback on datafy/nav project

Hi folks,

I'm looking for honest and constructive feedback on [1] - not so much

about the actual implementation (even though these are welcome too), but

rather about the general idea of basing everything on top of (mirrored

versions) `datafy` and `nav` (in this way). There is a TL;DR section at

the very bottom that describes the approach in 4 short sentences.

Many thanks in advance,

Dimitris

[1]: https://github.com/jimpil/jedi-time

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Re: Feedback on datafy/nav project

2020-01-30 Thread Christian Gonzalez 
I think you could also add some metadata to allow datafy-ing instead of 
extending the protocol:

(with-meta {:name "John Doe" :language "us"} 
{`clojure.core.protocols/datafy (fn [x] ...)})

On Thursday, January 30, 2020 at 10:28:20 AM UTC-8, Jim foo.bar wrote:
>
> Moreover, following the mailing discussion linked from the clojure.org 
> site, leads to the following quote from Rich - about 10 years ago :)
>
> *If a protocol comes with Clojure itself, avoid extending it to types *
> *you don't own, especially e.g. java.lang.String and other core Java *
> *interfaces. Rest assured if a protocol should extend to it, it will, *
> *else lobby for it. *
>
>
>
> On 30/01/2020 17:58, dimitris wrote:
>
> Well, the official Clojure guidelines are to NOT extend protocols, unless 
> you own either the protocol of the type(s) [1].
>
> In particular these lines:
>
> *If you are a library developer, you should not extend if you own neither 
> the protocol nor the target.*
>
> *You should take particular care when extending protocols included with 
> Clojure itself.*
>
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Dimitris
>
> [1]: https://clojure.org/reference/protocols#_extend_via_metadata
>
>
> On 30/01/2020 17:50, Sean Corfield wrote:
>
> Is there a reason you’ve mirrored those protocols/implementations rather 
> than just use Clojure’s built-in versions?
>
>  
>
> As it stands, your library wouldn’t work with other tooling that builds on 
> Clojure’s datafy/nav (REBL, for example).
>
>  
>
> Sean Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN
> An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/
>
> "If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive."
> -- Margaret Atwood
>
>  
>
> *From: *dimitris 
> *Sent: *Thursday, January 30, 2020 9:05 AM
> *To: *Clojure 
> *Subject: *Feedback on datafy/nav project
>
>  
>
> Hi folks,
>
>  
>
> I'm looking for honest and constructive feedback on [1] - not so much 
>
> about the actual implementation (even though these are welcome too), but 
>
> rather about the general idea of basing everything on top of (mirrored 
>
> versions) `datafy` and `nav` (in this way). There is a TL;DR section at 
>
> the very bottom that describes the approach in 4 short sentences.
>
>  
>
> Many thanks in advance,
>
>  
>
> Dimitris
>
>  
>
> [1]: https://github.com/jimpil/jedi-time
>
>  
>
>  
>
> -- 
>
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>
> Groups "Clojure" group.
>
> To post to this group, send email to clo...@googlegroups.com 
>
> Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with 
> your first post.
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>
> clo...@googlegroups.com 
>
> For more options, visit this group at
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> .
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>  
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>  
> 
> .
>
>

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Re: Feedback on datafy/nav project

2020-01-30 Thread dimitris 
Hmmm... how would that work? I want datafy to work on java.time objects 
- not Clojure maps (as you showed).



On 30/01/2020 18:37, Christian Gonzalez wrote:
I think you could also add some metadata to allow datafy-ing instead 
of extending the protocol:


(with-meta {:name "John Doe" :language "us"} 
{`clojure.core.protocols/datafy (fn [x] ...)})


On Thursday, January 30, 2020 at 10:28:20 AM UTC-8, Jim foo.bar wrote:

Moreover, following the mailing discussion linked from the
clojure.org  site, leads to the following
quote from Rich - about 10 years ago :)

/If a protocol comes with Clojure itself, avoid extending it to
types //
//you don't own, especially e.g. java.lang.String and other core
Java //
//interfaces. Rest assured if a protocol should extend to it, it
will, //
//else lobby for it. /



On 30/01/2020 17:58, dimitris wrote:


Well, the official Clojure guidelines are to NOT extend
protocols, unless you own either the protocol of the type(s) [1].

In particular these lines:/
/

/If you are a library developer, you should not extend if you own
neither the protocol nor the target./

/You should take particular care when extending protocols
included with Clojure itself./

/
/

Kind regards,

Dimitris

[1]: https://clojure.org/reference/protocols#_extend_via_metadata



On 30/01/2020 17:50, Sean Corfield wrote:


Is there a reason you’ve mirrored those
protocols/implementations rather than just use Clojure’s
built-in versions?

As it stands, your library wouldn’t work with other tooling that
builds on Clojure’s datafy/nav (REBL, for example).

Sean Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN
An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/

"If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive."
-- Margaret Atwood

*From: *dimitris 
*Sent: *Thursday, January 30, 2020 9:05 AM
*To: *Clojure 
*Subject: *Feedback on datafy/nav project

Hi folks,

I'm looking for honest and constructive feedback on [1] - not so
much

about the actual implementation (even though these are welcome
too), but

rather about the general idea of basing everything on top of
(mirrored

versions) `datafy` and `nav` (in this way). There is a TL;DR
section at

the very bottom that describes the approach in 4 short sentences.

Many thanks in advance,

Dimitris

[1]: https://github.com/jimpil/jedi-time


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RE: Feedback on datafy/nav project

2020-01-30 Thread Sean Corfield 
If your library is intended specifically to provide the ability to datafy/nav 
java.time objects then it is something optional that users can choose to opt 
into.

The section you meant to link to 
https://clojure.org/reference/protocols#_guidelines_for_extension says: “To 
minimize conflicts, consider these guidelines”

So they’re a) guidelines and b) just given as a caution to minimize conflicts.

There are libraries out there already that exist specifically to give users the 
option to extend protocols from one library (such as clojure.java.jdbc or 
next.jdbc) to Java types to provide customized behavior, above and beyond the 
“base versions for common targets” mentioned in that section provided by the 
original library.

I see benefit in libraries that extend Clojure’s datafy/nav to new domains as a 
narrow purpose that users can opt into. I see much less benefit in providing 
the same protocols and function names that core already includes, targeted to 
new types, in an isolated way such as this. Perhaps that is because I’m already 
using datafy/nav and I find their utility is enhanced by being extended to 
other Java types?

Yes, if multiple people write multiple libraries A, B, C that extend datafy/nav 
to java.time types and then other libraries X, Y, Z start pulling in those 
extenders, consumers of X, Y, Z can be in trouble.

Sean Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN
An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/

"If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive."
-- Margaret Atwood

From: dimitris
Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2020 9:58 AM
To: clojure@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Feedback on datafy/nav project

Well, the official Clojure guidelines are to NOT extend protocols, unless you 
own either the protocol of the type(s) [1].
In particular these lines:
If you are a library developer, you should not extend if you own neither the 
protocol nor the target.
You should take particular care when extending protocols included with Clojure 
itself.

Kind regards,
Dimitris
[1]: https://clojure.org/reference/protocols#_extend_via_metadata

On 30/01/2020 17:50, Sean Corfield wrote:
Is there a reason you’ve mirrored those protocols/implementations rather than 
just use Clojure’s built-in versions?
 
As it stands, your library wouldn’t work with other tooling that builds on 
Clojure’s datafy/nav (REBL, for example).
 
Sean Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN
An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/

"If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive."
-- Margaret Atwood
 
From: dimitris
Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2020 9:05 AM
To: Clojure
Subject: Feedback on datafy/nav project
 
Hi folks,
 
I'm looking for honest and constructive feedback on [1] - not so much 
about the actual implementation (even though these are welcome too), but 
rather about the general idea of basing everything on top of (mirrored 
versions) `datafy` and `nav` (in this way). There is a TL;DR section at 
the very bottom that describes the approach in 4 short sentences.
 
Many thanks in advance,
 
Dimitris
 
[1]: https://github.com/jimpil/jedi-time
 
 
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