Looking for Clojure-centric career advice/suggestions
TL;DR - Got as close to a dream job as I could have wanted, after 6 months lost it. Now, with only experience in Clojure and Scala, and seemingly stuck in Utah, not sure what's the best next course of action. I'm putting this out there because of all the good experiences I've had over the years with people in the Clojure community. I very much value what you all have done and do. As best I can tell you're the salt of the earth. I'm a rather newly minted programmer. Six months on the job. I claim Clojure as my first language simply because I never saw my initial tryst with VB.NET and Visual Studio as being much more than tinkering/not really understanding. It's kind of a long and convoluted story as to how I got here, I can share it if anyone's interested, but for now let's just say that my 6 years of trying to learn Clojure in my spare time landed me my first official programming gig ... learning Scala. Being a bit tied to Utah (fiscally and family-wise at the moment) this seemed to be the best chance I had at starting my professional programming career on as close to my terms as possible, so I took it. I still like Clojure better than Scala (though I've learned a lot using Scala), but these last six months programming in a professional environment has cemented for me that I absolutely love programming. Being able to work in a code repository of functional, industry oriented code and doing real stuff that made a difference, I'll just say I never thought work could be so enjoyable, nor that I'd ever have the chance to work with so many smart and good people. Unfortunately, as an outgrowth of my newness, company politics and a change in team management I was told to look for a job elsewhere. I got right to work and applied to everything that looked anything close to what I then had. I was amazed, the first four I applied to all responded well. And as a plus they all were either using, or experimenting with either Clojure or Scala. Unfortunately, as unexpected as the job loss was for myself, it hit my wife even harder, we've not had an easy time our first 4 years of marriage on the economic side of things and emotionally she was rather paralyzed by this news. This combined in an unfortunate way with the fact that all four places quickly responded to me and, also in a difficult way, with a few decisions in how to approach the coding challenges I was given. In short, I was not terribly impressive for any of the four companies. Ironically the one company where I felt I did the worst has been the most understanding and is willing to give me a second chance after I take a couple of challenges they've given me. The problem I'm looking for help with is to know how to approach this in the best way that keeps me bringing in food for and keeping a roof over the head of my wife and son, all this hopefully without sidelining my career goals, to the extent that that's possible. While I can't go and do a hard ruling out of anything, the whole relocation idea to where jobs are would be an insanely tough sell. I'm not sure if anyone would take on a remote worker as green as myself. And here, where I'm at in Utah, is hardly full of companies ready to take some guy who has 6 months of Scala experience and only self-taught (and what most would consider 'hobby' experience) with Clojure. Aside from the fact that very few even know what those languages are is the fact that since I've been so focused on functional programming I'm really hard pressed to show people what I know and what I can do. And then finding someone willing to take a chance on me. I'd like to avoid the tech support jobs I've had before as they would both pay substantially less AND they would be significant distractions on the time for me to move forward and learn. I just feel like I'm on the cusp of being a very productive and capable programmer and, at the same time, like it's all trying to get away from me. I'm trying to learn and apply what I know in the time between applying for work and handling all the other miscellany connected with that and keeping my little family going. And while I can't rule out school I'm having a hard time justifying it in my mind when I feel like I'm so close to being a very capable programmer. I've really studied a great deal on a significant number of things, everything from Relational database theory to things like REST and HATEOAS as well as having used a little of Instaparse a previous job (one of the big helps in getting the Scala job). Most recently I've been dabbling in Om and Pedestal in my own time, I've also gotten my hands wet with a bit of CSS & SASS. And, while not entirely connected to coding, I grew up around Illustrator and Photoshop and am very conversant in Graphic Design (but most of my experience is for printed mediums). Any advice or suggestions? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clojure"
Re: Looking for Clojure-centric career advice/suggestions
It sounds like you know what you want, and you're fortunate for that. I often don't, and I can tell you that greatly complicates things. At any rate, there are few things more stressful than career changes. Perhaps you are casting too small a net. Many here would love to be paid to write Clojure, but if you can't find such an opportunity, you may want to broaden your search for functional or JVM-based jobs instead. It is also very helpful to have some open source work you can show off. Coding challenges are often completely detached from reality, and open source work can sometimes offset their importance. Zach On Tuesday, July 22, 2014 9:03:13 PM UTC-4, VaedaStrike wrote: > > TL;DR - Got as close to a dream job as I could have wanted, after 6 months > lost it. Now, with only experience in Clojure and Scala, and seemingly > stuck in Utah, not sure what's the best next course of action. > > I'm putting this out there because of all the good experiences I've had > over the years with people in the Clojure community. I very much value what > you all have done and do. As best I can tell you're the salt of the earth. > > I'm a rather newly minted programmer. Six months on the job. > > I claim Clojure as my first language simply because I never saw my initial > tryst with VB.NET and Visual Studio as being much more than tinkering/not > really understanding. > > It's kind of a long and convoluted story as to how I got here, I can share > it if anyone's interested, but for now let's just say that my 6 years of > trying to learn Clojure in my spare time landed me my first official > programming gig ... learning Scala. > > Being a bit tied to Utah (fiscally and family-wise at the moment) this > seemed to be the best chance I had at starting my professional programming > career on as close to my terms as possible, so I took it. > > I still like Clojure better than Scala (though I've learned a lot using > Scala), but these last six months programming in a professional environment > has cemented for me that I absolutely love programming. Being able to work > in a code repository of functional, industry oriented code and doing real > stuff that made a difference, I'll just say I never thought work could be > so enjoyable, nor that I'd ever have the chance to work with so many smart > and good people. > > Unfortunately, as an outgrowth of my newness, company politics and a > change in team management I was told to look for a job elsewhere. > > I got right to work and applied to everything that looked anything close > to what I then had. > > I was amazed, the first four I applied to all responded well. And as a > plus they all were either using, or experimenting with either Clojure or > Scala. > > Unfortunately, as unexpected as the job loss was for myself, it hit my > wife even harder, we've not had an easy time our first 4 years of marriage > on the economic side of things and emotionally she was rather paralyzed by > this news. This combined in an unfortunate way with the fact that all four > places quickly responded to me and, also in a difficult way, with a few > decisions in how to approach the coding challenges I was given. In short, I > was not terribly impressive for any of the four companies. Ironically the > one company where I felt I did the worst has been the most understanding > and is willing to give me a second chance after I take a couple of > challenges they've given me. > > The problem I'm looking for help with is to know how to approach this in > the best way that keeps me bringing in food for and keeping a roof over > the head of my wife and son, all this hopefully without sidelining my > career goals, to the extent that that's possible. > > While I can't go and do a hard ruling out of anything, the whole > relocation idea to where jobs are would be an insanely tough sell. I'm not > sure if anyone would take on a remote worker as green as myself. And here, > where I'm at in Utah, is hardly full of companies ready to take some guy > who has 6 months of Scala experience and only self-taught (and what most > would consider 'hobby' experience) with Clojure. Aside from the fact that > very few even know what those languages are is the fact that since I've > been so focused on functional programming I'm really hard pressed to show > people what I know and what I can do. And then finding someone willing to > take a chance on me. > > I'd like to avoid the tech support jobs I've had before as they would both > pay substantially less AND they would be significant distractions on the > time for me to move forward and learn. I just feel like I'm on the cusp of > being a very productive and capable programmer and, at the same time, like > it's all trying to get away from me. I'm trying to learn and apply what I > know in the time between applying for work and handling all the other > miscellany connected with that and keeping my little family going. An
Re: Looking for Clojure-centric career advice/suggestions
Many of us started out in non-development jobs and worked our way into full time coding. Tech support jobs are ok but I would focus more on QA jobs. This might allow you to do some automated testing using clojure/clojurescript and given that test code isn't given the scrutiny that dev code goes through, you might be able to justify clojure to mgmt. I started out in Product Support - a role between dev and the rest of the organization - these positions are usually only found in a very large tech organizations with a physical product (our company invented automated attendant voicemail.) As a product support engineer, I managed alpha and beta trials, wrote documentation, tested features, gave feedback to engineering, etc. This might be something you could try. A third alternative is to do contract programming/consulting. This might be a harder sell but often can get you around geographical restrictions. Travel might be involved... Good luck! Alan On Tuesday, July 22, 2014 6:03:13 PM UTC-7, VaedaStrike wrote: > > TL;DR - Got as close to a dream job as I could have wanted, after 6 months > lost it. Now, with only experience in Clojure and Scala, and seemingly > stuck in Utah, not sure what's the best next course of action. > > I'm putting this out there because of all the good experiences I've had > over the years with people in the Clojure community. I very much value what > you all have done and do. As best I can tell you're the salt of the earth. > > I'm a rather newly minted programmer. Six months on the job. > > I claim Clojure as my first language simply because I never saw my initial > tryst with VB.NET and Visual Studio as being much more than tinkering/not > really understanding. > > It's kind of a long and convoluted story as to how I got here, I can share > it if anyone's interested, but for now let's just say that my 6 years of > trying to learn Clojure in my spare time landed me my first official > programming gig ... learning Scala. > > Being a bit tied to Utah (fiscally and family-wise at the moment) this > seemed to be the best chance I had at starting my professional programming > career on as close to my terms as possible, so I took it. > > I still like Clojure better than Scala (though I've learned a lot using > Scala), but these last six months programming in a professional environment > has cemented for me that I absolutely love programming. Being able to work > in a code repository of functional, industry oriented code and doing real > stuff that made a difference, I'll just say I never thought work could be > so enjoyable, nor that I'd ever have the chance to work with so many smart > and good people. > > Unfortunately, as an outgrowth of my newness, company politics and a > change in team management I was told to look for a job elsewhere. > > I got right to work and applied to everything that looked anything close > to what I then had. > > I was amazed, the first four I applied to all responded well. And as a > plus they all were either using, or experimenting with either Clojure or > Scala. > > Unfortunately, as unexpected as the job loss was for myself, it hit my > wife even harder, we've not had an easy time our first 4 years of marriage > on the economic side of things and emotionally she was rather paralyzed by > this news. This combined in an unfortunate way with the fact that all four > places quickly responded to me and, also in a difficult way, with a few > decisions in how to approach the coding challenges I was given. In short, I > was not terribly impressive for any of the four companies. Ironically the > one company where I felt I did the worst has been the most understanding > and is willing to give me a second chance after I take a couple of > challenges they've given me. > > The problem I'm looking for help with is to know how to approach this in > the best way that keeps me bringing in food for and keeping a roof over > the head of my wife and son, all this hopefully without sidelining my > career goals, to the extent that that's possible. > > While I can't go and do a hard ruling out of anything, the whole > relocation idea to where jobs are would be an insanely tough sell. I'm not > sure if anyone would take on a remote worker as green as myself. And here, > where I'm at in Utah, is hardly full of companies ready to take some guy > who has 6 months of Scala experience and only self-taught (and what most > would consider 'hobby' experience) with Clojure. Aside from the fact that > very few even know what those languages are is the fact that since I've > been so focused on functional programming I'm really hard pressed to show > people what I know and what I can do. And then finding someone willing to > take a chance on me. > > I'd like to avoid the tech support jobs I've had before as they would both > pay substantially less AND they would be significant distractions on the > time for me to move forward
Re: Looking for Clojure-centric career advice/suggestions
I appreciate that Zach. The whole idea of casting a wider net is certainly something I'm open to, I may have made it appear that I'm picky when it comes to what I code in. I'm really not. I've gotten where I have simply because I've both been fortunate and driven by more unusual motives than what I perceive drive most programmers to get into programming. I really would be happy to learn just about anything that I would get paid sufficiently to keep my family going. It just seems a hard sell to others thus far. On the open source side I both have a small side project I've thought about putting out there, but it would need a bit of polishing before I think I'd feel right about putting it out there. Maybe I need to look into that more. Anyway, I very much appreciate you taking your time to respond to me Zach. The advice is very good and the emotional boost to see people respond with thoughtful and frank advice is very significant. --Ethan On Tuesday, July 22, 2014 10:55:12 PM UTC-6, Zach Oakes wrote: > > It sounds like you know what you want, and you're fortunate for that. I > often don't, and I can tell you that greatly complicates things. At any > rate, there are few things more stressful than career changes. > > Perhaps you are casting too small a net. Many here would love to be paid > to write Clojure, but if you can't find such an opportunity, you may want > to broaden your search for functional or JVM-based jobs instead. > > It is also very helpful to have some open source work you can show off. > Coding challenges are often completely detached from reality, and open > source work can sometimes offset their importance. > > Zach > > On Tuesday, July 22, 2014 9:03:13 PM UTC-4, VaedaStrike wrote: >> >> TL;DR - Got as close to a dream job as I could have wanted, after 6 >> months lost it. Now, with only experience in Clojure and Scala, and >> seemingly stuck in Utah, not sure what's the best next course of action. >> >> I'm putting this out there because of all the good experiences I've had >> over the years with people in the Clojure community. I very much value what >> you all have done and do. As best I can tell you're the salt of the earth. >> >> I'm a rather newly minted programmer. Six months on the job. >> >> I claim Clojure as my first language simply because I never saw my >> initial tryst with VB.NET and Visual Studio as being much more than >> tinkering/not really understanding. >> >> It's kind of a long and convoluted story as to how I got here, I can >> share it if anyone's interested, but for now let's just say that my 6 years >> of trying to learn Clojure in my spare time landed me my first official >> programming gig ... learning Scala. >> >> Being a bit tied to Utah (fiscally and family-wise at the moment) this >> seemed to be the best chance I had at starting my professional programming >> career on as close to my terms as possible, so I took it. >> >> I still like Clojure better than Scala (though I've learned a lot using >> Scala), but these last six months programming in a professional environment >> has cemented for me that I absolutely love programming. Being able to work >> in a code repository of functional, industry oriented code and doing real >> stuff that made a difference, I'll just say I never thought work could be >> so enjoyable, nor that I'd ever have the chance to work with so many smart >> and good people. >> >> Unfortunately, as an outgrowth of my newness, company politics and a >> change in team management I was told to look for a job elsewhere. >> >> I got right to work and applied to everything that looked anything close >> to what I then had. >> >> I was amazed, the first four I applied to all responded well. And as a >> plus they all were either using, or experimenting with either Clojure or >> Scala. >> >> Unfortunately, as unexpected as the job loss was for myself, it hit my >> wife even harder, we've not had an easy time our first 4 years of marriage >> on the economic side of things and emotionally she was rather paralyzed by >> this news. This combined in an unfortunate way with the fact that all four >> places quickly responded to me and, also in a difficult way, with a few >> decisions in how to approach the coding challenges I was given. In short, I >> was not terribly impressive for any of the four companies. Ironically the >> one company where I felt I did the worst has been the most understanding >> and is willing to give me a second chance after I take a couple of >> challenges they've given me. >> >> The problem I'm looking for help with is to know how to approach this in >> the best way that keeps me bringing in food for and keeping a roof over >> the head of my wife and son, all this hopefully without sidelining my >> career goals, to the extent that that's possible. >> >> While I can't go and do a hard ruling out of anything, the whole >> relocation idea to where jobs are would be an insane
Re: Looking for Clojure-centric career advice/suggestions
The QA thing has passed my mind, and for the same reason you mentioned, being able to sneak in some clojure/clojurescript into the automation. I may need to look more into the whole contracting thing. It is a bit scary when I've got so little real world experience. On Wednesday, July 23, 2014 6:47:56 PM UTC-6, Alan Moore wrote: > > Many of us started out in non-development jobs and worked our way into > full time coding. Tech support jobs are ok but I would focus more on QA > jobs. This might allow you to do some automated testing using > clojure/clojurescript and given that test code isn't given the scrutiny > that dev code goes through, you might be able to justify clojure to mgmt. > > I started out in Product Support - a role between dev and the rest of the > organization - these positions are usually only found in a very large tech > organizations with a physical product (our company invented automated > attendant voicemail.) As a product support engineer, I managed alpha and > beta trials, wrote documentation, tested features, gave feedback to > engineering, etc. This might be something you could try. > > A third alternative is to do contract programming/consulting. This might > be a harder sell but often can get you around geographical restrictions. > Travel might be involved... > > Good luck! > > Alan > > > On Tuesday, July 22, 2014 6:03:13 PM UTC-7, VaedaStrike wrote: >> >> TL;DR - Got as close to a dream job as I could have wanted, after 6 >> months lost it. Now, with only experience in Clojure and Scala, and >> seemingly stuck in Utah, not sure what's the best next course of action. >> >> I'm putting this out there because of all the good experiences I've had >> over the years with people in the Clojure community. I very much value what >> you all have done and do. As best I can tell you're the salt of the earth. >> >> I'm a rather newly minted programmer. Six months on the job. >> >> I claim Clojure as my first language simply because I never saw my >> initial tryst with VB.NET and Visual Studio as being much more than >> tinkering/not really understanding. >> >> It's kind of a long and convoluted story as to how I got here, I can >> share it if anyone's interested, but for now let's just say that my 6 years >> of trying to learn Clojure in my spare time landed me my first official >> programming gig ... learning Scala. >> >> Being a bit tied to Utah (fiscally and family-wise at the moment) this >> seemed to be the best chance I had at starting my professional programming >> career on as close to my terms as possible, so I took it. >> >> I still like Clojure better than Scala (though I've learned a lot using >> Scala), but these last six months programming in a professional environment >> has cemented for me that I absolutely love programming. Being able to work >> in a code repository of functional, industry oriented code and doing real >> stuff that made a difference, I'll just say I never thought work could be >> so enjoyable, nor that I'd ever have the chance to work with so many smart >> and good people. >> >> Unfortunately, as an outgrowth of my newness, company politics and a >> change in team management I was told to look for a job elsewhere. >> >> I got right to work and applied to everything that looked anything close >> to what I then had. >> >> I was amazed, the first four I applied to all responded well. And as a >> plus they all were either using, or experimenting with either Clojure or >> Scala. >> >> Unfortunately, as unexpected as the job loss was for myself, it hit my >> wife even harder, we've not had an easy time our first 4 years of marriage >> on the economic side of things and emotionally she was rather paralyzed by >> this news. This combined in an unfortunate way with the fact that all four >> places quickly responded to me and, also in a difficult way, with a few >> decisions in how to approach the coding challenges I was given. In short, I >> was not terribly impressive for any of the four companies. Ironically the >> one company where I felt I did the worst has been the most understanding >> and is willing to give me a second chance after I take a couple of >> challenges they've given me. >> >> The problem I'm looking for help with is to know how to approach this in >> the best way that keeps me bringing in food for and keeping a roof over >> the head of my wife and son, all this hopefully without sidelining my >> career goals, to the extent that that's possible. >> >> While I can't go and do a hard ruling out of anything, the whole >> relocation idea to where jobs are would be an insanely tough sell. I'm not >> sure if anyone would take on a remote worker as green as myself. And here, >> where I'm at in Utah, is hardly full of companies ready to take some guy >> who has 6 months of Scala experience and only self-taught (and what most >> would consider 'hobby' experience) with Clojure. Aside from the fact that
