Re: How did you learn Clojure?
@Marcus, Thanks for your kind words, Marcus. @Gareth, +1. I feel re-implementing a past solution is a really good learning technique. Half the battle is to correctly understand a problem/domain and work out how to solve it. No point taking on that kind of friction if the purpose is to learn a new language. On Thursday, March 27, 2014 10:20:11 PM UTC+5:30, Marcus Blankenship wrote: Awesome, thanks for the advice. I need to find something I’ve written and translate it to Clojure... On Mar 26, 2014, at 7:14 PM, gaz jones gareth@gmail.com javascript: wrote: A technique I use whenever I need to learn a new language is to write the same application I already have in another language. I generally choose downloading nzbs from usenet as it can involve a number of interesting programming techniques, at least enough to give you a pretty good idea of how a language handles things like: * threading and work queues (downloading files concurrently) * socket io (writing a simple nntp client) * xml processing (parsing nzb files) * binary encoding/decoding (yenc implementation) * curses style ui * web ui * command line arguments * configuration * signal handling * testing (haha kidding) TBH I usually get about 50% of the way through and have enough of a handle on the language at that point to abandon my efforts and move on. On Wed, Mar 26, 2014 at 7:22 PM, Daniel Higginbotham nonrec...@gmail.comjavascript: wrote: Chiming in a bit late, but here was my path: * Read Land of Lisp by Conrad Barski. This was my first real contact with lisp and functional programming. I found it challenging, but the book is well-written and the technique of teaching through writing games was perfect for me. It uses common lisp which is almost baroque compared to Clojure, but it was helpful later in getting a better sense of Clojure's roots. Also, most of the classic lisp books out there use common lisp * Tried to write my own web-based game using common lisp. This was true fun and I learned a ton * Read On Lisp by Paul Graham. It is an excellent book * Was introduced to Clojure through a talk given by Alan Dipert at my workplace * Learned Clojure by skipping around Clojure in Action, Programming Clojure, and Clojure Programming. Settled on Clojure Programming. * projecteuler.net has been a good help * I've been teaching Clojure to folks at work, which forces me to deeply understand the material * At the same time, I've kept building little web apps to solidify my knowledge. One of them, http://gratefulplace.com, is actually used :) I feel like I know enough to get stuff done, but there's still so much more to learn. Most recently I've been brushing up on math/logic so that I can better understand the more mathy texts whenever I encounter them. On Thursday, March 20, 2014 9:08:41 PM UTC-4, Marcus Blankenship wrote: Hi Folks, I'm a post technical PM who's fascinated by Clojure, and want to learn it, but am having a hard time without a real project to work on. It's actually excited me so much I'm considering hanging up my PM hat and diving back in the programmer pool again! My problem appears to be 1) focus, and 2) fear. Focus because I can't (yet) earn a living on a clojure project, so it must be done during off hours. Fear because it's harder and more different than the old OO languages I've used in the past. So I'm curious: how did you learn Clojure well enough to be proficient with it, or how are you working on learning it? Anyone else facing the focus + fear dilemma? Sent from my iPhone -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clo...@googlegroups.comjavascript: Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+u...@googlegroups.com javascript: For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to clojure+u...@googlegroups.com javascript:. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clo...@googlegroups.com javascript: Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+u...@googlegroups.com javascript: For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to
Re: How did you learn Clojure?
Awesome, thanks for the advice. I need to find something I've written and translate it to Clojure... On Mar 26, 2014, at 7:14 PM, gaz jones gareth.e.jo...@gmail.com wrote: A technique I use whenever I need to learn a new language is to write the same application I already have in another language. I generally choose downloading nzbs from usenet as it can involve a number of interesting programming techniques, at least enough to give you a pretty good idea of how a language handles things like: * threading and work queues (downloading files concurrently) * socket io (writing a simple nntp client) * xml processing (parsing nzb files) * binary encoding/decoding (yenc implementation) * curses style ui * web ui * command line arguments * configuration * signal handling * testing (haha kidding) TBH I usually get about 50% of the way through and have enough of a handle on the language at that point to abandon my efforts and move on. On Wed, Mar 26, 2014 at 7:22 PM, Daniel Higginbotham nonrecurs...@gmail.com wrote: Chiming in a bit late, but here was my path: * Read Land of Lisp by Conrad Barski. This was my first real contact with lisp and functional programming. I found it challenging, but the book is well-written and the technique of teaching through writing games was perfect for me. It uses common lisp which is almost baroque compared to Clojure, but it was helpful later in getting a better sense of Clojure's roots. Also, most of the classic lisp books out there use common lisp * Tried to write my own web-based game using common lisp. This was true fun and I learned a ton * Read On Lisp by Paul Graham. It is an excellent book * Was introduced to Clojure through a talk given by Alan Dipert at my workplace * Learned Clojure by skipping around Clojure in Action, Programming Clojure, and Clojure Programming. Settled on Clojure Programming. * projecteuler.net has been a good help * I've been teaching Clojure to folks at work, which forces me to deeply understand the material * At the same time, I've kept building little web apps to solidify my knowledge. One of them, http://gratefulplace.com, is actually used :) I feel like I know enough to get stuff done, but there's still so much more to learn. Most recently I've been brushing up on math/logic so that I can better understand the more mathy texts whenever I encounter them. On Thursday, March 20, 2014 9:08:41 PM UTC-4, Marcus Blankenship wrote: Hi Folks, I'm a post technical PM who's fascinated by Clojure, and want to learn it, but am having a hard time without a real project to work on. It's actually excited me so much I'm considering hanging up my PM hat and diving back in the programmer pool again! My problem appears to be 1) focus, and 2) fear. Focus because I can't (yet) earn a living on a clojure project, so it must be done during off hours. Fear because it's harder and more different than the old OO languages I've used in the past. So I'm curious: how did you learn Clojure well enough to be proficient with it, or how are you working on learning it? Anyone else facing the focus + fear dilemma? Sent from my iPhone -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. Best, Marcus Marcus Blankenship \\\ Problem Solver, Linear Thinker \\\ 541.805.2736 \ @justzeros \ skype:marcuscreo -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your
Re: How did you learn Clojure?
This is awesome, thanks for sharing Aditya! (Thank you to all who shared as well!) I agree with your concept of whatever makes the work real for oneself, and this is where I'm struggling a bit. I think finding an O/S project and contributing to it would do the trick, but we'll see. Thanks for all the great information! Best, Marcus On Mar 23, 2014, at 9:22 PM, Aditya Athalye aditya.atha...@gmail.com wrote: Marcus, Thanks for asking the question and instigating this discussion. A bit late into the thread, but I just want to narrate my experience so far as I'm a Clojure n00b (actually, I'm really a programming n00b). I found 4clojure and Clojure Koans useful, to get an initial feel for the language and some of the basic ideas contained therein. I used (and use) Halloway's Programming Clojure to understand the basic concepts. I also found it incredibly helpful to attend a hands-on (fantastic) Clojure workshop that @ghoseb conducted. I'd term this phase as picking up some of the motor skills. I think the following minimum set of things helps become creatively productive with Clojure: - Clojure's primary data structures and sequence abstraction - Manipulation of collections / sequences - Core functions (it's sufficient to be only peripherally aware of macros / protocols/multi-methods / concurrency semantics, to begin with... They reveal themselves through libraries, once one deep-dives into those through daily use.) - REPL-driven development / the inside-out flavour of FP (particularly to visualize and plan intermediate data transformations that will lead to the final output of the function; inspecting types and classes of things, and trying to understand the various errors one produces.) Beyond that IMHO only a real project will provide the context and the constraints, both of which are required to produce focus. Ideally this project would involve ongoing development by other people. By happy accident I happen to be writing a fair amount of Clojure for browser automation, with clj-webdriver, at a company where Clojure is the workhorse of our server-side software (@helpshift). My particular situation has the following characteristics: - Specific problem domain - Write clojure daily - Read clojure daily - Get and do peer-reviews of code by other (often way way better) programmers - Fast feedback cycles (= 1 day) - Heavy use of at least one library from the Clojure ecosystem... - to have to keep cross-referencing the docs, - be forced to look into library functions when you misuse them (therefore read s'more code by an orders of magnitude superior engineer) - and having to do double-takes at the fundamentals (especially when abstractions leak http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/LeakyAbstractions.html) - Bonus: other people happen to depend on this work, so there's no easy way to slack off thinking if something particularly nasty starts to block progress :-) - Bonus: reading application error logs to see what's happening under the hood Also, I'm working through Dimitri Sotnikov's Web Development with Clojure, and I have the Clojure cookbook handy to look through for ideas. I tend to use Clojuredocs's quick reference several times a day (http://clojuredocs.org/quickref/Clojure%20Core), and often read core docs and library docs to understand what I just did that so magically worked! :) Eric Normand's video series also looks very interesting (http://www.purelyfunctional.tv/). Beyond that, I found working through SICP has given (is giving) me the tools to reason better about Clojure's data structures and about functional concepts in general (hat tip @ghoseb, again). As I try to pick up more working proficiency, I intend to explore different approaches to writing web apps with Clojure/Clojurescript (through small projects using ring/compojure, Hoplon, Pedestal, Caribou, Om... I may actually try to write and rewrite the same small project, with at least two or three of these libraries.) Afterthought: Initially I struggled with the notion of real projects. Now, I prefer to interpret it as whatever makes the work real for oneself, as opposed to being predicated on utility to lots of people, or on novelty (I'd argue it's actually better to solve problems other people have solved many times over). My 0.0002 BTC. Thanks for reading! - Aditya. On Sunday, March 23, 2014 9:15:04 PM UTC+5:30, Marcus Blankenship wrote: Thanks to all who responded! On Mar 21, 2014, at 7:17 AM, Lee Spector lspe...@hampshire.edu wrote: A little thing but I use it in when teaching Clojure to newbies and maybe it'll be useful for others: https://github.com/lspector/clojinc/blob/master/src/clojinc/core.clj -Lee -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this
Re: How did you learn Clojure?
Chiming in a bit late, but here was my path: * Read Land of Lisp by Conrad Barski. This was my first real contact with lisp and functional programming. I found it challenging, but the book is well-written and the technique of teaching through writing games was perfect for me. It uses common lisp which is almost baroque compared to Clojure, but it was helpful later in getting a better sense of Clojure's roots. Also, most of the classic lisp books out there use common lisp * Tried to write my own web-based game using common lisp. This was true fun and I learned a ton * Read On Lisp by Paul Graham. It is an excellent book * Was introduced to Clojure through a talk given by Alan Dipert at my workplace * Learned Clojure by skipping around Clojure in Action, Programming Clojure, and Clojure Programming. Settled on Clojure Programming. * projecteuler.net has been a good help * I've been teaching Clojure to folks at work, which forces me to deeply understand the material * At the same time, I've kept building little web apps to solidify my knowledge. One of them, http://gratefulplace.com, is actually used :) I feel like I know enough to get stuff done, but there's still so much more to learn. Most recently I've been brushing up on math/logic so that I can better understand the more mathy texts whenever I encounter them. On Thursday, March 20, 2014 9:08:41 PM UTC-4, Marcus Blankenship wrote: Hi Folks, I'm a post technical PM who's fascinated by Clojure, and want to learn it, but am having a hard time without a real project to work on. It's actually excited me so much I'm considering hanging up my PM hat and diving back in the programmer pool again! My problem appears to be 1) focus, and 2) fear. Focus because I can't (yet) earn a living on a clojure project, so it must be done during off hours. Fear because it's harder and more different than the old OO languages I've used in the past. So I'm curious: how did you learn Clojure well enough to be proficient with it, or how are you working on learning it? Anyone else facing the focus + fear dilemma? Sent from my iPhone -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: How did you learn Clojure?
A technique I use whenever I need to learn a new language is to write the same application I already have in another language. I generally choose downloading nzbs from usenet as it can involve a number of interesting programming techniques, at least enough to give you a pretty good idea of how a language handles things like: * threading and work queues (downloading files concurrently) * socket io (writing a simple nntp client) * xml processing (parsing nzb files) * binary encoding/decoding (yenc implementation) * curses style ui * web ui * command line arguments * configuration * signal handling * testing (haha kidding) TBH I usually get about 50% of the way through and have enough of a handle on the language at that point to abandon my efforts and move on. On Wed, Mar 26, 2014 at 7:22 PM, Daniel Higginbotham nonrecurs...@gmail.com wrote: Chiming in a bit late, but here was my path: * Read Land of Lisp by Conrad Barski. This was my first real contact with lisp and functional programming. I found it challenging, but the book is well-written and the technique of teaching through writing games was perfect for me. It uses common lisp which is almost baroque compared to Clojure, but it was helpful later in getting a better sense of Clojure's roots. Also, most of the classic lisp books out there use common lisp * Tried to write my own web-based game using common lisp. This was true fun and I learned a ton * Read On Lisp by Paul Graham. It is an excellent book * Was introduced to Clojure through a talk given by Alan Dipert at my workplace * Learned Clojure by skipping around Clojure in Action, Programming Clojure, and Clojure Programming. Settled on Clojure Programming. * projecteuler.net has been a good help * I've been teaching Clojure to folks at work, which forces me to deeply understand the material * At the same time, I've kept building little web apps to solidify my knowledge. One of them, http://gratefulplace.com, is actually used :) I feel like I know enough to get stuff done, but there's still so much more to learn. Most recently I've been brushing up on math/logic so that I can better understand the more mathy texts whenever I encounter them. On Thursday, March 20, 2014 9:08:41 PM UTC-4, Marcus Blankenship wrote: Hi Folks, I'm a post technical PM who's fascinated by Clojure, and want to learn it, but am having a hard time without a real project to work on. It's actually excited me so much I'm considering hanging up my PM hat and diving back in the programmer pool again! My problem appears to be 1) focus, and 2) fear. Focus because I can't (yet) earn a living on a clojure project, so it must be done during off hours. Fear because it's harder and more different than the old OO languages I've used in the past. So I'm curious: how did you learn Clojure well enough to be proficient with it, or how are you working on learning it? Anyone else facing the focus + fear dilemma? Sent from my iPhone -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: How did you learn Clojure?
Marcus, Thanks for asking the question and instigating this discussion. A bit late into the thread, but I just want to narrate my experience so far as I'm a Clojure n00b (actually, I'm really a programming n00b). I found 4clojure and Clojure Koans useful, to get an initial feel for the language and some of the basic ideas contained therein. I used (and use) Halloway's Programming Clojure to understand the basic concepts. I also found it incredibly helpful to attend a hands-on (fantastic) Clojure workshop that @ghoseb conducted. I'd term this phase as picking up some of the motor skills. I think the following minimum set of things helps become creatively productive with Clojure: - Clojure's primary data structures and sequence abstraction - Manipulation of collections / sequences - Core functions (it's sufficient to be only peripherally aware of macros / protocols/multi-methods / concurrency semantics, to begin with... They reveal themselves through libraries, once one deep-dives into those through daily use.) - REPL-driven development / the inside-out flavour of FP (particularly to visualize and plan intermediate data transformations that will lead to the final output of the function; inspecting types and classes of things, and trying to understand the various errors one produces.) Beyond that IMHO only a real project will provide the context and the constraints, both of which are required to produce focus. Ideally this project would involve ongoing development by other people. By happy accident I happen to be writing a fair amount of Clojure for browser automation, with clj-webdriver, at a company where Clojure is the workhorse of our server-side software (@helpshift). My particular situation has the following characteristics: - Specific problem domain - Write clojure daily - Read clojure daily - Get and do peer-reviews of code by other (often way way better) programmers - Fast feedback cycles (= 1 day) - Heavy use of at least one library from the Clojure ecosystem... - to have to keep cross-referencing the docs, - be forced to look into library functions when you misuse them (therefore read s'more code by an orders of magnitude superior engineer) - and having to do double-takes at the fundamentals (especially when abstractions leak http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/LeakyAbstractions.html) - Bonus: other people happen to depend on this work, so there's no easy way to slack off thinking if something particularly nasty starts to block progress :-) - Bonus: reading application error logs to see what's happening under the hood Also, I'm working through Dimitri Sotnikov's Web Development with Clojure, and I have the Clojure cookbook handy to look through for ideas. I tend to use Clojuredocs's quick reference several times a day (http://clojuredocs.org/quickref/Clojure%20Core), and often read core docs and library docs to understand what I just did that so magically worked! :) Eric Normand's video series also looks very interesting (http://www.purelyfunctional.tv/). Beyond that, I found working through SICP has given (is giving) me the tools to reason better about Clojure's data structures and about functional concepts in general (hat tip @ghoseb, again). As I try to pick up more working proficiency, I intend to explore different approaches to writing web apps with Clojure/Clojurescript (through small projects using ring/compojure, Hoplon, Pedestal, Caribou, Om... I may actually try to write and rewrite the same small project, with at least two or three of these libraries.) Afterthought: Initially I struggled with the notion of real projects. Now, I prefer to interpret it as whatever makes the work real for oneself, as opposed to being predicated on utility to lots of people, or on novelty (I'd argue it's actually better to solve problems other people have solved many times over). My 0.0002 BTC. Thanks for reading! - Aditya. On Sunday, March 23, 2014 9:15:04 PM UTC+5:30, Marcus Blankenship wrote: Thanks to all who responded! On Mar 21, 2014, at 7:17 AM, Lee Spector lspe...@hampshire.edujavascript: wrote: A little thing but I use it in when teaching Clojure to newbies and maybe it'll be useful for others: https://github.com/lspector/clojinc/blob/master/src/clojinc/core.clj -Lee -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clo...@googlegroups.comjavascript: Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+u...@googlegroups.com javascript: For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from
Re: How did you learn Clojure?
For me, it went like this, but I had the luxury of a full time clojure job that gave me some space to learn: 1. Read Joy Of Clojure. I got the philosophy and background knowledge that informed further study out of it. Felt like I understood the theory and motivations, but I was missing the 'muscle memory'. Emacs took a few weeks to feel familiar. 2. Worked on real code with other people, found opportunities for things like writing a macro. 3. Read core.clj, RT.java, and Compiler.java over and over again, especially if something unexpected happened. Investigated every problem until I understood it fully. 4. Read and attempted to understand the implementation code and design tradeoffs of every non-obvious library I tried to use. I found that, over time, it felt like less work overall than trying and failing to blindly use the library. 5. Read Joy Of Clojure again. Noticed all the things I'd missed the first time around. :-) On Mon, Mar 24, 2014 at 12:22 AM, Aditya Athalye aditya.atha...@gmail.comwrote: Marcus, Thanks for asking the question and instigating this discussion. A bit late into the thread, but I just want to narrate my experience so far as I'm a Clojure n00b (actually, I'm really a programming n00b). I found 4clojure and Clojure Koans useful, to get an initial feel for the language and some of the basic ideas contained therein. I used (and use) Halloway's Programming Clojure to understand the basic concepts. I also found it incredibly helpful to attend a hands-on (fantastic) Clojure workshop that @ghoseb conducted. I'd term this phase as picking up some of the motor skills. I think the following minimum set of things helps become creatively productive with Clojure: - Clojure's primary data structures and sequence abstraction - Manipulation of collections / sequences - Core functions (it's sufficient to be only peripherally aware of macros / protocols/multi-methods / concurrency semantics, to begin with... They reveal themselves through libraries, once one deep-dives into those through daily use.) - REPL-driven development / the inside-out flavour of FP (particularly to visualize and plan intermediate data transformations that will lead to the final output of the function; inspecting types and classes of things, and trying to understand the various errors one produces.) Beyond that IMHO only a real project will provide the context and the constraints, both of which are required to produce focus. Ideally this project would involve ongoing development by other people. By happy accident I happen to be writing a fair amount of Clojure for browser automation, with clj-webdriver, at a company where Clojure is the workhorse of our server-side software (@helpshift). My particular situation has the following characteristics: - Specific problem domain - Write clojure daily - Read clojure daily - Get and do peer-reviews of code by other (often way way better) programmers - Fast feedback cycles (= 1 day) - Heavy use of at least one library from the Clojure ecosystem... - to have to keep cross-referencing the docs, - be forced to look into library functions when you misuse them (therefore read s'more code by an orders of magnitude superior engineer) - and having to do double-takes at the fundamentals (especially when abstractions leak http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/LeakyAbstractions.html) - Bonus: other people happen to depend on this work, so there's no easy way to slack off thinking if something particularly nasty starts to block progress :-) - Bonus: reading application error logs to see what's happening under the hood Also, I'm working through Dimitri Sotnikov's Web Development with Clojure, and I have the Clojure cookbook handy to look through for ideas. I tend to use Clojuredocs's quick reference several times a day (http://clojuredocs.org/quickref/Clojure%20Core), and often read core docs and library docs to understand what I just did that so magically worked! :) Eric Normand's video series also looks very interesting ( http://www.purelyfunctional.tv/). Beyond that, I found working through SICP has given (is giving) me the tools to reason better about Clojure's data structures and about functional concepts in general (hat tip @ghoseb, again). As I try to pick up more working proficiency, I intend to explore different approaches to writing web apps with Clojure/Clojurescript (through small projects using ring/compojure, Hoplon, Pedestal, Caribou, Om... I may actually try to write and rewrite the same small project, with at least two or three of these libraries.) Afterthought: Initially I struggled with the notion of real projects. Now, I prefer to interpret it as whatever makes the work real for oneself, as opposed to being predicated on utility to lots of people, or on novelty (I'd argue it's actually better to solve problems other people have solved many
Re: How did you learn Clojure?
Thank, Blake! On Mar 20, 2014, at 11:50 PM, blake.wat...@pnmac.com wrote: Some Lisp books have been translated to Clojure. http://juliangamble.com/blog/2012/07/13/amazing-lisp-books-living-again-in-clojure/ On Thursday, March 20, 2014 11:23:10 PM UTC-7, Marcus Blankenship wrote: Cool, thanks to all who've replied thus far. Question: is there any value in traditional lisp / scheme texts, like SICP, or Little Schemer (etc) or other books like that? I've spent quite a bit of time with them, imagining they would pay off, but I'm not sure that's a normal route to Clojure proficiency. Sent from my iPhone On Mar 20, 2014, at 11:12 PM, Sean Corfield se...@corfield.org wrote: On Mar 20, 2014, at 6:08 PM, Marcus Blankenship mar...@creoagency.com wrote: So I'm curious: how did you learn Clojure well enough to be proficient with it, or how are you working on learning it? Initial dabbling: The Joy of Clojure and a REPL. Caveat: it's not really an introductory Clojure book but I had past FP experience so I felt I could jump in. Initial serious learning: Attended Amit Rathore's Clojure Bootcamp - one day course for about $300 (if I remember correctly?). Follow-on: 4clojure.com, worked through Clojure in Action as well. Then I picked a handful of small-ish problems we'd already solved at work in other languages and re-coded them in Clojure. Since then it's been a steady stream of tackling increasingly larger problems at work, over a period of about three years. Anyone else facing the focus + fear dilemma? There's a lot less fear if you're used to learning new languages. I try to pick up a new language every year or two: Groovy in 2008/2009, Scala in 2009/2010, Clojure in 2010/2011 (and onward). Dabbled in Ruby, Python, Haskell since then but nothing serious. Very interested in Elm right now. As for focus, yes, you really do need a project. Either pick things you've done before in other languages, or figure out something that would scratch an itch (a small web app, perhaps?) and tackle that. Sean Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/ Perfection is the enemy of the good. -- Gustave Flaubert, French realist novelist (1821-1880) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. Best, Marcus Marcus Blankenship \\\ Problem Solver, Linear Thinker \\\ 541.805.2736 \ @justzeros \ skype:marcuscreo -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: How did you learn Clojure?
Thanks to all who responded! On Mar 21, 2014, at 7:17 AM, Lee Spector lspec...@hampshire.edu wrote: A little thing but I use it in when teaching Clojure to newbies and maybe it'll be useful for others: https://github.com/lspector/clojinc/blob/master/src/clojinc/core.clj -Lee -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. Best, Marcus Marcus Blankenship \\\ Problem Solver, Linear Thinker \\\ 541.805.2736 \ @justzeros \ skype:marcuscreo -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: How did you learn Clojure?
Thanks, Jerrod, this is great advice. Thanks so much! On Mar 21, 2014, at 6:53 PM, Jarrod Swart jcsw...@gmail.com wrote: A tip if you are completely stuck on 4clojure: Often the 4clojure problem will say you can't use a particular function. The first thing I would do is go look at the source code for that function, then I would try to find other functions with similar functionality. Much like learning to paint or write, you have to copy first. Eventually looking through all that source code you will start to develop a sense of how a problem can be solved, and in giving any solution 4clojure lets you look at the solutions of others. Look at the most prolific 4clojure users, their solutions will teach you a lot. Look up the functions they used. In order to learn to Think in Clojure you need to understand how someone who already can\does did what they did. Another general tip is to harness momentum, when I started learning I picked one thing that I could completely finish in a day. And the trick is to dream small, some things I did: List the files in a directory and sort them by type. A crypto-quote assist\solver. A small text based adventure game. The goal is to get a WHOLE thing done, even if it is a small thing. I did this 2-3 times a week. Porting old code you have done before in another language is great too because the big issue here will be learning to turn OO\Imperative code into functional code. I also wrote a blog post listing the resources I used when just getting started: http://jarrodswart.com/beginner-resources-clojure/, and a super friendly 10k foot view of the reduce function: http://jarrodswart.com/clojure-like-im-five-reduce-functions/. Hope this helps, Jarrod -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. Best, Marcus Marcus Blankenship \\\ Problem Solver, Linear Thinker \\\ 541.805.2736 \ @justzeros \ skype:marcuscreo -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: How did you learn Clojure?
Read lots and lots of code. I've poured over many many GH projects/libraries for clojure. Take a domain you are familiar with, preferably something you've written before in another language, find a library that does that thing and then read the code until you understand it clearly. Try to really understand what Persistent data structures are and how you use them. When you don't understand some small thing don't just gloss over it. That works in most other languages but you really need to slow down and try to understand each thing before proceeding. Some of the hardest parts of the language for me were the subtle, but very powerful, automatic destructuring, shorthand notations and in some cases the single character that can completely change the meaning or context of some code - like when it is evaluated. Keep asking yourself, is this code being executed at this point or is it going to be used later in some other context (usually w.r.t. lambdas...) Next to that I had to re-learn my understanding of LISP and the idioms of Clojure. I had done LISP years before but all that knowledge of (car) (cdr) (cddr) etc was kinda useless in helping me understand the more powerful features of Clojure. Also, make sure you really understand the code == data thing. That is really fundamental to understanding the power of LISP in general and Clojure in particular. Hope this helps. Take care! Alan On Saturday, March 22, 2014 11:38:43 AM UTC-7, Marcus Blankenship wrote: Thanks, Jerrod, this is great advice. Thanks so much! On Mar 21, 2014, at 6:53 PM, Jarrod Swart jcs...@gmail.com javascript: wrote: A tip if you are completely stuck on 4clojure: Often the 4clojure problem will say you can't use a particular function. The first thing I would do is go look at the source code for that function, then I would try to find other functions with similar functionality. Much like learning to paint or write, you have to copy first. Eventually looking through all that source code you will start to develop a sense of how a problem can be solved, and in giving any solution 4clojure lets you look at the solutions of others. Look at the most prolific 4clojure users, their solutions will teach you a lot. Look up the functions they used. In order to learn to Think in Clojure you need to understand how someone who already can\does did what they did. Another general tip is to harness momentum, when I started learning I picked one thing that I could completely finish in a day. And the trick is to dream small, some things I did: - List the files in a directory and sort them by type. - A crypto-quote assist\solver. - A small text based adventure game. The goal is to get a WHOLE thing done, even if it is a small thing. I did this 2-3 times a week. Porting old code you have done before in another language is great too because the big issue here will be learning to turn OO\Imperative code into functional code. I also wrote a blog post listing the resources I used when just getting started: http://jarrodswart.com/beginner-resources-clojure/, and a super friendly 10k foot view of the reduce function: http://jarrodswart.com/clojure-like-im-five-reduce-functions/. Hope this helps, Jarrod -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clo...@googlegroups.com javascript: Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+u...@googlegroups.com javascript: For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to clojure+u...@googlegroups.com javascript:. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. Best, Marcus Marcus Blankenship \\\ Problem Solver, Linear Thinker \\\ 541.805.2736 \ @justzeros \ skype:marcuscreo -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: How did you learn Clojure?
On Mar 20, 2014, at 6:08 PM, Marcus Blankenship mar...@creoagency.com wrote: So I'm curious: how did you learn Clojure well enough to be proficient with it, or how are you working on learning it? Initial dabbling: The Joy of Clojure and a REPL. Caveat: it's not really an introductory Clojure book but I had past FP experience so I felt I could jump in. Initial serious learning: Attended Amit Rathore's Clojure Bootcamp - one day course for about $300 (if I remember correctly?). Follow-on: 4clojure.com, worked through Clojure in Action as well. Then I picked a handful of small-ish problems we'd already solved at work in other languages and re-coded them in Clojure. Since then it's been a steady stream of tackling increasingly larger problems at work, over a period of about three years. Anyone else facing the focus + fear dilemma? There's a lot less fear if you're used to learning new languages. I try to pick up a new language every year or two: Groovy in 2008/2009, Scala in 2009/2010, Clojure in 2010/2011 (and onward). Dabbled in Ruby, Python, Haskell since then but nothing serious. Very interested in Elm right now. As for focus, yes, you really do need a project. Either pick things you've done before in other languages, or figure out something that would scratch an itch (a small web app, perhaps?) and tackle that. Sean Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/ Perfection is the enemy of the good. -- Gustave Flaubert, French realist novelist (1821-1880) signature.asc Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail
Re: How did you learn Clojure?
Cool, thanks to all who've replied thus far. Question: is there any value in traditional lisp / scheme texts, like SICP, or Little Schemer (etc) or other books like that? I've spent quite a bit of time with them, imagining they would pay off, but I'm not sure that's a normal route to Clojure proficiency. Sent from my iPhone On Mar 20, 2014, at 11:12 PM, Sean Corfield s...@corfield.org wrote: On Mar 20, 2014, at 6:08 PM, Marcus Blankenship mar...@creoagency.com wrote: So I'm curious: how did you learn Clojure well enough to be proficient with it, or how are you working on learning it? Initial dabbling: The Joy of Clojure and a REPL. Caveat: it's not really an introductory Clojure book but I had past FP experience so I felt I could jump in. Initial serious learning: Attended Amit Rathore's Clojure Bootcamp - one day course for about $300 (if I remember correctly?). Follow-on: 4clojure.com, worked through Clojure in Action as well. Then I picked a handful of small-ish problems we'd already solved at work in other languages and re-coded them in Clojure. Since then it's been a steady stream of tackling increasingly larger problems at work, over a period of about three years. Anyone else facing the focus + fear dilemma? There's a lot less fear if you're used to learning new languages. I try to pick up a new language every year or two: Groovy in 2008/2009, Scala in 2009/2010, Clojure in 2010/2011 (and onward). Dabbled in Ruby, Python, Haskell since then but nothing serious. Very interested in Elm right now. As for focus, yes, you really do need a project. Either pick things you've done before in other languages, or figure out something that would scratch an itch (a small web app, perhaps?) and tackle that. Sean Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/ Perfection is the enemy of the good. -- Gustave Flaubert, French realist novelist (1821-1880) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: How did you learn Clojure?
Thanks, I'll check it out! Sent from my iPhone On Mar 20, 2014, at 10:54 PM, Devin Walters dev...@gmail.com wrote: Shameless self-promotion: http://GetClojure.com is something I wrote to hopefully help people learn Clojure. One of the primary methods I used for learning Clojure was to do problems, like the ones Alex mentioned, read source, and ask questions in irc. The last one is important IMO and it's the reason why I wanted to make something like GetClojure. The expressions you search for are all taken from the irc channel and run through a sandbox so you can see what the value and output is. This lets you investigate interesting ways other people have chosen to use the language, and saves you some of the back and forth you might encounter on irc. All of that being said, you still need to be able to reason about what you're doing, so in general I recommend it as a get unstuck sometimes tool. There are some hidden gems in there though, if you go to the last page of results for a search term and work backwards. (hint: search for map, go to the last page, and work backwards from there for a bit) You can also find interesting destructuring examples by searching for 'let AND :or', and so on. Anyway, hope it's of use to you or anyone else dropping in on this thread. Happy Clojuring, '(Devin Walters) On Mar 20, 2014, at 22:23, Marcus Blankenship mar...@creoagency.com wrote: Thanks, Alex! Is it kosher to post questions about 4Clojure here? I'm stumped on a few, and simply looking up the answer often isn't helpful... Is there a clojure-noobs list? Sent from my iPhone On Mar 20, 2014, at 8:11 PM, Alex Miller a...@puredanger.com wrote: Hi Marcus, Some great problem sites that can provide opportunities for practice: - http://clojurescriptkoans.com/ (I think everything here is actually Clojure) - http://4clojure.com - make sure to turn on code golf mode and look at others' solutions too - http://exercism.io - get feedback from others on your solutions - https://projecteuler.net/ - http://codingforinterviews.com/ - great email series with practice problems Clojure for Web Development from Pragmatic Press is a new Clojure book that is a little more focused on a problem domain and build a web app. Hope that helps... Alex Miller On Thursday, March 20, 2014 8:08:41 PM UTC-5, Marcus Blankenship wrote: Hi Folks, I'm a post technical PM who's fascinated by Clojure, and want to learn it, but am having a hard time without a real project to work on. It's actually excited me so much I'm considering hanging up my PM hat and diving back in the programmer pool again! My problem appears to be 1) focus, and 2) fear. Focus because I can't (yet) earn a living on a clojure project, so it must be done during off hours. Fear because it's harder and more different than the old OO languages I've used in the past. So I'm curious: how did you learn Clojure well enough to be proficient with it, or how are you working on learning it? Anyone else facing the focus + fear dilemma? Sent from my iPhone -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en --- You received this
Re: How did you learn Clojure?
Just take it one step at a time. Learning Clojure likely involves more paradigm changes than learning languages in the past, which is why learning those languages seemed easier. I don't think Clojure is inherently harder than regular OO... in fact I think it is a simpler approach, but one that requires you to retrain yourself a little. The way I learned Clojure personally was like this: 1) read some books 2) port a tiny program of mine to Clojure 3) port a slightly bigger one to Clojure 4) get involved in open source and cleanup code and generally do Clojure coding 5) get a job doing 95% Clojure to learn the nitty gritty stuff. 6) keep doing more open source and learning more from the community as I go Have fun with it :) On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 11:12 PM, Sean Corfield s...@corfield.org wrote: On Mar 20, 2014, at 6:08 PM, Marcus Blankenship mar...@creoagency.com wrote: So I'm curious: how did you learn Clojure well enough to be proficient with it, or how are you working on learning it? Initial dabbling: The Joy of Clojure and a REPL. Caveat: it's not really an introductory Clojure book but I had past FP experience so I felt I could jump in. Initial serious learning: Attended Amit Rathore's Clojure Bootcamp - one day course for about $300 (if I remember correctly?). Follow-on: 4clojure.com, worked through Clojure in Action as well. Then I picked a handful of small-ish problems we'd already solved at work in other languages and re-coded them in Clojure. Since then it's been a steady stream of tackling increasingly larger problems at work, over a period of about three years. Anyone else facing the focus + fear dilemma? There's a lot less fear if you're used to learning new languages. I try to pick up a new language every year or two: Groovy in 2008/2009, Scala in 2009/2010, Clojure in 2010/2011 (and onward). Dabbled in Ruby, Python, Haskell since then but nothing serious. Very interested in Elm right now. As for focus, yes, you really do need a project. Either pick things you've done before in other languages, or figure out something that would scratch an itch (a small web app, perhaps?) and tackle that. Sean Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/ Perfection is the enemy of the good. -- Gustave Flaubert, French realist novelist (1821-1880) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: How did you learn Clojure?
Some Lisp books have been translated to Clojure. http://juliangamble.com/blog/2012/07/13/amazing-lisp-books-living-again-in-clojure/ On Thursday, March 20, 2014 11:23:10 PM UTC-7, Marcus Blankenship wrote: Cool, thanks to all who've replied thus far. Question: is there any value in traditional lisp / scheme texts, like SICP, or Little Schemer (etc) or other books like that? I've spent quite a bit of time with them, imagining they would pay off, but I'm not sure that's a normal route to Clojure proficiency. Sent from my iPhone On Mar 20, 2014, at 11:12 PM, Sean Corfield se...@corfield.orgjavascript: wrote: On Mar 20, 2014, at 6:08 PM, Marcus Blankenship mar...@creoagency.comjavascript: wrote: So I'm curious: how did you learn Clojure well enough to be proficient with it, or how are you working on learning it? Initial dabbling: The Joy of Clojure and a REPL. Caveat: it's not really an introductory Clojure book but I had past FP experience so I felt I could jump in. Initial serious learning: Attended Amit Rathore's Clojure Bootcamp - one day course for about $300 (if I remember correctly?). Follow-on: 4clojure.com, worked through Clojure in Action as well. Then I picked a handful of small-ish problems we'd already solved at work in other languages and re-coded them in Clojure. Since then it's been a steady stream of tackling increasingly larger problems at work, over a period of about three years. Anyone else facing the focus + fear dilemma? There's a lot less fear if you're used to learning new languages. I try to pick up a new language every year or two: Groovy in 2008/2009, Scala in 2009/2010, Clojure in 2010/2011 (and onward). Dabbled in Ruby, Python, Haskell since then but nothing serious. Very interested in Elm right now. As for focus, yes, you really do need a project. Either pick things you've done before in other languages, or figure out something that would scratch an itch (a small web app, perhaps?) and tackle that. Sean Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/ Perfection is the enemy of the good. -- Gustave Flaubert, French realist novelist (1821-1880) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: How did you learn Clojure?
The example I use for starting a new language is talking to a remote JSON API. Plenty to choose from, lets you experiment with libraries (http, json), and work with data structures. Also having lein new myapp speeds things along, since you're not paralyzed on how to begin. JPH On 03/21/2014 09:08 AM, Marcus Blankenship wrote: Hi Folks, I'm a post technical PM who's fascinated by Clojure, and want to learn it, but am having a hard time without a real project to work on. It's actually excited me so much I'm considering hanging up my PM hat and diving back in the programmer pool again! My problem appears to be 1) focus, and 2) fear. Focus because I can't (yet) earn a living on a clojure project, so it must be done during off hours. Fear because it's harder and more different than the old OO languages I've used in the past. So I'm curious: how did you learn Clojure well enough to be proficient with it, or how are you working on learning it? Anyone else facing the focus + fear dilemma? Sent from my iPhone -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: How did you learn Clojure?
It's totally fine to ask here (or on #clojure on IRC). noobs fully welcome. :) On Thursday, March 20, 2014 10:23:42 PM UTC-5, Marcus Blankenship wrote: Thanks, Alex! Is it kosher to post questions about 4Clojure here? I'm stumped on a few, and simply looking up the answer often isn't helpful... Is there a clojure-noobs list? Sent from my iPhone On Mar 20, 2014, at 8:11 PM, Alex Miller al...@puredanger.comjavascript: wrote: Hi Marcus, Some great problem sites that can provide opportunities for practice: - http://clojurescriptkoans.com/ (I think everything here is actually Clojure) - http://4clojure.com - make sure to turn on code golf mode and look at others' solutions too - http://exercism.io - get feedback from others on your solutions - https://projecteuler.net/ - http://codingforinterviews.com/ - great email series with practice problems Clojure for Web Development from Pragmatic Press is a new Clojure book that is a little more focused on a problem domain and build a web app. Hope that helps... Alex Miller On Thursday, March 20, 2014 8:08:41 PM UTC-5, Marcus Blankenship wrote: Hi Folks, I'm a post technical PM who's fascinated by Clojure, and want to learn it, but am having a hard time without a real project to work on. It's actually excited me so much I'm considering hanging up my PM hat and diving back in the programmer pool again! My problem appears to be 1) focus, and 2) fear. Focus because I can't (yet) earn a living on a clojure project, so it must be done during off hours. Fear because it's harder and more different than the old OO languages I've used in the past. So I'm curious: how did you learn Clojure well enough to be proficient with it, or how are you working on learning it? Anyone else facing the focus + fear dilemma? Sent from my iPhone -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clo...@googlegroups.com javascript: Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+u...@googlegroups.com javascript: For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to clojure+u...@googlegroups.com javascript:. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: How did you learn Clojure?
When I started learning clojure back in 2010 I decided to give a presentation about it at work. That set a deadline (about 3 months) in which I had to learn the language. Having said that, I learnt /the language/ however wroting code (toy or not) reading other people's code, getting code reviews (asking for reviews of short snippets in IRC has been great) has been invaluable. Again, you could say the same thing about any other language :) On 21 March 2014 12:31, Alex Miller a...@puredanger.com wrote: It's totally fine to ask here (or on #clojure on IRC). noobs fully welcome. :) On Thursday, March 20, 2014 10:23:42 PM UTC-5, Marcus Blankenship wrote: Thanks, Alex! Is it kosher to post questions about 4Clojure here? I'm stumped on a few, and simply looking up the answer often isn't helpful... Is there a clojure-noobs list? Sent from my iPhone On Mar 20, 2014, at 8:11 PM, Alex Miller al...@puredanger.com wrote: Hi Marcus, Some great problem sites that can provide opportunities for practice: - http://clojurescriptkoans.com/ (I think everything here is actually Clojure) - http://4clojure.com - make sure to turn on code golf mode and look at others' solutions too - http://exercism.io - get feedback from others on your solutions - https://projecteuler.net/ - http://codingforinterviews.com/ - great email series with practice problems Clojure for Web Development from Pragmatic Press is a new Clojure book that is a little more focused on a problem domain and build a web app. Hope that helps... Alex Miller On Thursday, March 20, 2014 8:08:41 PM UTC-5, Marcus Blankenship wrote: Hi Folks, I'm a post technical PM who's fascinated by Clojure, and want to learn it, but am having a hard time without a real project to work on. It's actually excited me so much I'm considering hanging up my PM hat and diving back in the programmer pool again! My problem appears to be 1) focus, and 2) fear. Focus because I can't (yet) earn a living on a clojure project, so it must be done during off hours. Fear because it's harder and more different than the old OO languages I've used in the past. So I'm curious: how did you learn Clojure well enough to be proficient with it, or how are you working on learning it? Anyone else facing the focus + fear dilemma? Sent from my iPhone -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clo...@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+u...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to clojure+u...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: How did you learn Clojure?
Im in the process of learning, and I found that the clojuretv talks and presentations on youtube were useful. Also the video and sample code for Rich Hickey's Ants demo is an excellent intro to how concurrency works in clojure : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGVqrGmwOAw https://gist.github.com/spacemanaki/1093917 ALso Alex Yakushev's Tetris is worth working though : http://codethat.wordpress.com/2011/09/10/writing-tetris-in-clojure/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: How did you learn Clojure?
A little thing but I use it in when teaching Clojure to newbies and maybe it'll be useful for others: https://github.com/lspector/clojinc/blob/master/src/clojinc/core.clj -Lee -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: How did you learn Clojure?
Hey Devin, I don't think I get getClojure.com. What is it? On Mar 20, 2014, at 10:54 PM, Devin Walters dev...@gmail.com wrote: Shameless self-promotion: http://GetClojure.com is something I wrote to hopefully help people learn Clojure. One of the primary methods I used for learning Clojure was to do problems, like the ones Alex mentioned, read source, and ask questions in irc. The last one is important IMO and it's the reason why I wanted to make something like GetClojure. The expressions you search for are all taken from the irc channel and run through a sandbox so you can see what the value and output is. This lets you investigate interesting ways other people have chosen to use the language, and saves you some of the back and forth you might encounter on irc. All of that being said, you still need to be able to reason about what you're doing, so in general I recommend it as a get unstuck sometimes tool. There are some hidden gems in there though, if you go to the last page of results for a search term and work backwards. (hint: search for map, go to the last page, and work backwards from there for a bit) You can also find interesting destructuring examples by searching for 'let AND :or', and so on. Anyway, hope it's of use to you or anyone else dropping in on this thread. Happy Clojuring, '(Devin Walters) On Mar 20, 2014, at 22:23, Marcus Blankenship mar...@creoagency.com wrote: Thanks, Alex! Is it kosher to post questions about 4Clojure here? I'm stumped on a few, and simply looking up the answer often isn't helpful... Is there a clojure-noobs list? Sent from my iPhone On Mar 20, 2014, at 8:11 PM, Alex Miller a...@puredanger.com wrote: Hi Marcus, Some great problem sites that can provide opportunities for practice: - http://clojurescriptkoans.com/ (I think everything here is actually Clojure) - http://4clojure.com - make sure to turn on code golf mode and look at others' solutions too - http://exercism.io - get feedback from others on your solutions - https://projecteuler.net/ - http://codingforinterviews.com/ - great email series with practice problems Clojure for Web Development from Pragmatic Press is a new Clojure book that is a little more focused on a problem domain and build a web app. Hope that helps... Alex Miller On Thursday, March 20, 2014 8:08:41 PM UTC-5, Marcus Blankenship wrote: Hi Folks, I'm a post technical PM who's fascinated by Clojure, and want to learn it, but am having a hard time without a real project to work on. It's actually excited me so much I'm considering hanging up my PM hat and diving back in the programmer pool again! My problem appears to be 1) focus, and 2) fear. Focus because I can't (yet) earn a living on a clojure project, so it must be done during off hours. Fear because it's harder and more different than the old OO languages I've used in the past. So I'm curious: how did you learn Clojure well enough to be proficient with it, or how are you working on learning it? Anyone else facing the focus + fear dilemma? Sent from my iPhone -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en --- You
Re: How did you learn Clojure?
A tip if you are completely stuck on 4clojure: Often the 4clojure problem will say you can't use a particular function. The first thing I would do is go look at the source code for that function, then I would try to find other functions with similar functionality. Much like learning to paint or write, you have to copy first. Eventually looking through all that source code you will start to develop a sense of how a problem can be solved, and in giving any solution 4clojure lets you look at the solutions of others. Look at the most prolific 4clojure users, their solutions will teach you a lot. Look up the functions they used. In order to learn to Think in Clojure you need to understand how someone who already can\does did what they did. Another general tip is to harness momentum, when I started learning I picked one thing that I could completely finish in a day. And the trick is to dream small, some things I did: - List the files in a directory and sort them by type. - A crypto-quote assist\solver. - A small text based adventure game. The goal is to get a WHOLE thing done, even if it is a small thing. I did this 2-3 times a week. Porting old code you have done before in another language is great too because the big issue here will be learning to turn OO\Imperative code into functional code. I also wrote a blog post listing the resources I used when just getting started: http://jarrodswart.com/beginner-resources-clojure/, and a super friendly 10k foot view of the reduce function: http://jarrodswart.com/clojure-like-im-five-reduce-functions/. Hope this helps, Jarrod -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: How did you learn Clojure?
I'm learning it now. In my case, we had a single Clojure programmer who's leaving and I was volunteered to take his place. =) So, in this case, fear is very focusing. Heh. Fun, though. He's been giving lessons and I've been reading books, using 4Clojure, looking at a variety of different programs (Twitter, asteroids, Caves of Clojure). -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: How did you learn Clojure?
Cool, thanks! Nice to have a project to work on, I'm sure! Sent from my iPhone On Mar 20, 2014, at 6:52 PM, blake.wat...@pnmac.com wrote: I'm learning it now. In my case, we had a single Clojure programmer who's leaving and I was volunteered to take his place. =) So, in this case, fear is very focusing. Heh. Fun, though. He's been giving lessons and I've been reading books, using 4Clojure, looking at a variety of different programs (Twitter, asteroids, Caves of Clojure). -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: How did you learn Clojure?
Hi Marcus, Some great problem sites that can provide opportunities for practice: - http://clojurescriptkoans.com/ (I think everything here is actually Clojure) - http://4clojure.com - make sure to turn on code golf mode and look at others' solutions too - http://exercism.io - get feedback from others on your solutions - https://projecteuler.net/ - http://codingforinterviews.com/ - great email series with practice problems Clojure for Web Development from Pragmatic Press is a new Clojure book that is a little more focused on a problem domain and build a web app. Hope that helps... Alex Miller On Thursday, March 20, 2014 8:08:41 PM UTC-5, Marcus Blankenship wrote: Hi Folks, I'm a post technical PM who's fascinated by Clojure, and want to learn it, but am having a hard time without a real project to work on. It's actually excited me so much I'm considering hanging up my PM hat and diving back in the programmer pool again! My problem appears to be 1) focus, and 2) fear. Focus because I can't (yet) earn a living on a clojure project, so it must be done during off hours. Fear because it's harder and more different than the old OO languages I've used in the past. So I'm curious: how did you learn Clojure well enough to be proficient with it, or how are you working on learning it? Anyone else facing the focus + fear dilemma? Sent from my iPhone -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: How did you learn Clojure?
Thanks, Alex! Is it kosher to post questions about 4Clojure here? I'm stumped on a few, and simply looking up the answer often isn't helpful... Is there a clojure-noobs list? Sent from my iPhone On Mar 20, 2014, at 8:11 PM, Alex Miller a...@puredanger.com wrote: Hi Marcus, Some great problem sites that can provide opportunities for practice: - http://clojurescriptkoans.com/ (I think everything here is actually Clojure) - http://4clojure.com - make sure to turn on code golf mode and look at others' solutions too - http://exercism.io - get feedback from others on your solutions - https://projecteuler.net/ - http://codingforinterviews.com/ - great email series with practice problems Clojure for Web Development from Pragmatic Press is a new Clojure book that is a little more focused on a problem domain and build a web app. Hope that helps... Alex Miller On Thursday, March 20, 2014 8:08:41 PM UTC-5, Marcus Blankenship wrote: Hi Folks, I'm a post technical PM who's fascinated by Clojure, and want to learn it, but am having a hard time without a real project to work on. It's actually excited me so much I'm considering hanging up my PM hat and diving back in the programmer pool again! My problem appears to be 1) focus, and 2) fear. Focus because I can't (yet) earn a living on a clojure project, so it must be done during off hours. Fear because it's harder and more different than the old OO languages I've used in the past. So I'm curious: how did you learn Clojure well enough to be proficient with it, or how are you working on learning it? Anyone else facing the focus + fear dilemma? Sent from my iPhone -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: How did you learn Clojure?
Shameless self-promotion: http://GetClojure.com is something I wrote to hopefully help people learn Clojure. One of the primary methods I used for learning Clojure was to do problems, like the ones Alex mentioned, read source, and ask questions in irc. The last one is important IMO and it's the reason why I wanted to make something like GetClojure. The expressions you search for are all taken from the irc channel and run through a sandbox so you can see what the value and output is. This lets you investigate interesting ways other people have chosen to use the language, and saves you some of the back and forth you might encounter on irc. All of that being said, you still need to be able to reason about what you're doing, so in general I recommend it as a get unstuck sometimes tool. There are some hidden gems in there though, if you go to the last page of results for a search term and work backwards. (hint: search for map, go to the last page, and work backwards from there for a bit) You can also find interesting destructuring examples by searching for 'let AND :or', and so on. Anyway, hope it's of use to you or anyone else dropping in on this thread. Happy Clojuring, '(Devin Walters) On Mar 20, 2014, at 22:23, Marcus Blankenship mar...@creoagency.com wrote: Thanks, Alex! Is it kosher to post questions about 4Clojure here? I'm stumped on a few, and simply looking up the answer often isn't helpful... Is there a clojure-noobs list? Sent from my iPhone On Mar 20, 2014, at 8:11 PM, Alex Miller a...@puredanger.com wrote: Hi Marcus, Some great problem sites that can provide opportunities for practice: - http://clojurescriptkoans.com/ (I think everything here is actually Clojure) - http://4clojure.com - make sure to turn on code golf mode and look at others' solutions too - http://exercism.io - get feedback from others on your solutions - https://projecteuler.net/ - http://codingforinterviews.com/ - great email series with practice problems Clojure for Web Development from Pragmatic Press is a new Clojure book that is a little more focused on a problem domain and build a web app. Hope that helps... Alex Miller On Thursday, March 20, 2014 8:08:41 PM UTC-5, Marcus Blankenship wrote: Hi Folks, I'm a post technical PM who's fascinated by Clojure, and want to learn it, but am having a hard time without a real project to work on. It's actually excited me so much I'm considering hanging up my PM hat and diving back in the programmer pool again! My problem appears to be 1) focus, and 2) fear. Focus because I can't (yet) earn a living on a clojure project, so it must be done during off hours. Fear because it's harder and more different than the old OO languages I've used in the past. So I'm curious: how did you learn Clojure well enough to be proficient with it, or how are you working on learning it? Anyone else facing the focus + fear dilemma? Sent from my iPhone -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to
