Re: asm-based clojure yet?

[Aaron]

I'll throw in my own work in progress as a low-footprint target of Clojure: 
https://github.com/aaronc/c-in-clj. It's not an attempt to compile Clojure 
code to C, but rather a way to write C code efficiently from Clojure that 
can be dynamically invoked from Clojure.

On Friday, May 17, 2013 7:49:08 AM UTC-4, Gary Trakhman wrote:
>
> I think these qualify as low-footprint clojures:
>
> https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript on node..
> https://github.com/takeoutweight/clojure-scheme compiles to native
> https://github.com/halgari/mjolnir llvm targets.
>
>
> On Fri, May 17, 2013 at 7:10 AM, atkaaz >wrote:
>
>> Ok, weird question: is there some clojure port on assembler yet? Even 
>> if(/especially if) it doesn't have jvm/java/javalibs support
>>
>> Or should I just check https://github.com/clojure/clojure-clr ?
>>
>> I'm mainly interested in low memory footprint and fast startup times 
>> (does clojure-clr have that?)
>>
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>
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Re: asm-based clojure yet?

[Aaron]

If you use ngen, it won't be so bad: 
http://clojureclr.blogspot.com/2011/12/using-ngen-to-improve-clojureclr.html

On Friday, May 24, 2013 6:29:24 AM UTC-4, atkaaz wrote:
>
> making a note that (on my system, win7 64bit btw) clojureclr startup time 
> is about (at least)10 seconds.
> tested both Clojure.Main.exe and Clojure.Compile.exe  from package 
> clojure-clr-1.4.1-Debug-4.0.zip
>
> I might be looking into Haskell which seems to have like 2 sec(max) 
> startup time, and the hello world .exe file is 1,132,640 bytes (big but 
> depends only on kerner32/user32/msvcrt/wsock32  .dll files)
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, May 17, 2013 at 2:10 PM, atkaaz >wrote:
>
>> Ok, weird question: is there some clojure port on assembler yet? Even 
>> if(/especially if) it doesn't have jvm/java/javalibs support
>>
>> Or should I just check https://github.com/clojure/clojure-clr ?
>>
>> I'm mainly interested in low memory footprint and fast startup times 
>> (does clojure-clr have that?)
>>
>
>

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Re: asm-based clojure yet?

[atkaaz]

for comparison an uberjar run [1] of a hello world program takes 2 seconds
(2.2 sec) on clojure 1.5.1 and Leiningen 2.2.0-SNAPSHOT on Java 1.7.0_17
Java HotSpot(TM) 64-Bit Server VM


[1] java -jar newproj1-0.1.0-SNAPSHOT-standalone.jar


On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 1:29 PM, atkaaz  wrote:

> making a note that (on my system, win7 64bit btw) clojureclr startup time
> is about (at least)10 seconds.
> tested both Clojure.Main.exe and Clojure.Compile.exe  from package
> clojure-clr-1.4.1-Debug-4.0.zip
>
> I might be looking into Haskell which seems to have like 2 sec(max)
> startup time, and the hello world .exe file is 1,132,640 bytes (big but
> depends only on kerner32/user32/msvcrt/wsock32  .dll files)
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, May 17, 2013 at 2:10 PM, atkaaz  wrote:
>
>> Ok, weird question: is there some clojure port on assembler yet? Even
>> if(/especially if) it doesn't have jvm/java/javalibs support
>>
>> Or should I just check https://github.com/clojure/clojure-clr ?
>>
>> I'm mainly interested in low memory footprint and fast startup times
>> (does clojure-clr have that?)
>>
>
>

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Re: asm-based clojure yet?

[atkaaz]

making a note that (on my system, win7 64bit btw) clojureclr startup time
is about (at least)10 seconds.
tested both Clojure.Main.exe and Clojure.Compile.exe  from package
clojure-clr-1.4.1-Debug-4.0.zip

I might be looking into Haskell which seems to have like 2 sec(max) startup
time, and the hello world .exe file is 1,132,640 bytes (big but depends
only on kerner32/user32/msvcrt/wsock32  .dll files)




On Fri, May 17, 2013 at 2:10 PM, atkaaz  wrote:

> Ok, weird question: is there some clojure port on assembler yet? Even
> if(/especially if) it doesn't have jvm/java/javalibs support
>
> Or should I just check https://github.com/clojure/clojure-clr ?
>
> I'm mainly interested in low memory footprint and fast startup times (does
> clojure-clr have that?)
>

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Re: asm-based clojure yet?

[atkaaz]

I don't know about the emacs stuff, but I consider the latter to be a
"nice" workaround/hack :)


On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 8:35 PM, Gary Trakhman wrote:

> emacs does this navigation stuff.. M-. and M-, . For uses of a function,
> try grep -R or rgrep.
>
>
> On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 1:30 PM, atkaaz  wrote:
>
>> Looks like I forgot to enable the paging file (windows virtual memory was
>> disabled) and that is why my eclipse/firefox would crash when running out
>> of memory  and also had much eclipse.ini memory allocated -Xms228m -Xmx712m
>> ; and because of all these I was unable to start repl most of the time in
>> ccw due to not enough memory(it said), so due to your comment (thank you),
>> I've fixed those and set -Xms128m -Xmx512m but will probably go back to 712
>> (it's ok now since I've the paging file); but the memory total is like
>> 3.5gig since 512 is eaten by video card memory.
>>
>> So now at least I can run them without running out of memory all the time
>> :) but they still use quite a lot and I found myself having to run lein
>> commands (like lein test) and restarting repls enough times for it to make
>> me want something else - but I am an odd ball, so it's not something
>> everyone else will do.
>>
>> Honestly I really want a system where things are more accessible,
>> unfortunately I can't explain this (i'll try if u really want me to) for
>> example I really enjoyed the F3 in eclipse on java source code which would
>> do Go to Definition/Declaration (of this identifier), and also the find all
>> calls to this method in this project and the refactoring... this kind of
>> connectivity I'd expect to be in the system (from what I've read some Lisp
>> machines(?) or the lisp lang on some machines really have that was it
>> Genera ? and some read about Dynamic Windows  but I also remember something
>> vaguely about ruby - haven't used it though). In a more broader way, I want
>> to be able to explore/deduce the system without having to jump through
>> hoops like googling for information about it, when in fact I already have
>> it running on my system, why not just explore its construction live while
>> it's running, visualize all its connections (like in a graph)
>>
>> I like this clojure lang because it gets me closer to the way I want
>> things to be, but it feels all so disconnected like I can't feel that when
>> writing some code I can just easily F3 on a symbol and see where else it
>> was used or even defined(sometimes this works in ccw btw ie. for clojure
>> core code)
>>
>>
>> So far, I'm thinking maybe code something from assembler level up (maybe
>> even not requiring garbage collector but still not using explicit mem
>> allocations like malloc) so it will eventually become a replacement for
>> whatever I use for text editor, and if it does the way I think it will, I
>> can then store all kinds of information and advance it even to the next
>> level... but there's all these barrier with transactions and locks but this
>> functional programming idea might be pretty good to apply(even though I
>> envisioned a system where everything would be global(ly accessible)
>> restrictions can still apply in dependency style like A depends on B and C
>> depends on B, so if I want to change B then the way A and C depend on B
>> have to be satisfied before the change can occur or that change will have
>> to include changes to A and/or C also).
>>
>>
>> Sorry for the rant, it's just that i feel lost so far(and not very
>> knowledgeable). I just imagine how awesome it would be to can explore a
>> system (PC+OS+java+clojure+some window+some text+some word on it) of which
>> say you know nothing of, from a point (any point you choose) and be able to
>> understand it and see how everything interconnects to everything else (no
>> data/level/layer stripped just like the .exe is without the sourcecode for
>> example), because everything you need is there, visually explorable(maybe
>> graph like) and even changeable, if you just need to know exactly how is
>> some word(or even a pixel) on the screen connected to everything else for
>> example you could dig in - I don't know how it would look and how to
>> implement that so far, but i know I want it, and apparently I'm reluctant
>> to accepting the status quo even though that's the only way to get there :/
>> It can still be fast even though all the debug info (so to speak) and
>> source code is tagged/connected to the binary code/offsets  I imagine.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 6:51 PM, Mikera wrote:
>>
>>> On Wednesday, 22 May 2013 20:35:01 UTC+8, atkaaz wrote:
>>>
 thank you very much, my search has lead me to seeking a lisp that could
 compile to machine code (mainly because i cannot accept the 20-22 sec `lein
 repl` startup time and eclipse/ccw memory consumptions - so I was hoping
 for something fast even though the cost is portability and all else)


>>> The above strikes me as a slightly odd statement. Eclipse/CCW 

Re: asm-based clojure yet?

[Gary Trakhman]

emacs does this navigation stuff.. M-. and M-, . For uses of a function,
try grep -R or rgrep.


On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 1:30 PM, atkaaz  wrote:

> Looks like I forgot to enable the paging file (windows virtual memory was
> disabled) and that is why my eclipse/firefox would crash when running out
> of memory  and also had much eclipse.ini memory allocated -Xms228m -Xmx712m
> ; and because of all these I was unable to start repl most of the time in
> ccw due to not enough memory(it said), so due to your comment (thank you),
> I've fixed those and set -Xms128m -Xmx512m but will probably go back to 712
> (it's ok now since I've the paging file); but the memory total is like
> 3.5gig since 512 is eaten by video card memory.
>
> So now at least I can run them without running out of memory all the time
> :) but they still use quite a lot and I found myself having to run lein
> commands (like lein test) and restarting repls enough times for it to make
> me want something else - but I am an odd ball, so it's not something
> everyone else will do.
>
> Honestly I really want a system where things are more accessible,
> unfortunately I can't explain this (i'll try if u really want me to) for
> example I really enjoyed the F3 in eclipse on java source code which would
> do Go to Definition/Declaration (of this identifier), and also the find all
> calls to this method in this project and the refactoring... this kind of
> connectivity I'd expect to be in the system (from what I've read some Lisp
> machines(?) or the lisp lang on some machines really have that was it
> Genera ? and some read about Dynamic Windows  but I also remember something
> vaguely about ruby - haven't used it though). In a more broader way, I want
> to be able to explore/deduce the system without having to jump through
> hoops like googling for information about it, when in fact I already have
> it running on my system, why not just explore its construction live while
> it's running, visualize all its connections (like in a graph)
>
> I like this clojure lang because it gets me closer to the way I want
> things to be, but it feels all so disconnected like I can't feel that when
> writing some code I can just easily F3 on a symbol and see where else it
> was used or even defined(sometimes this works in ccw btw ie. for clojure
> core code)
>
>
> So far, I'm thinking maybe code something from assembler level up (maybe
> even not requiring garbage collector but still not using explicit mem
> allocations like malloc) so it will eventually become a replacement for
> whatever I use for text editor, and if it does the way I think it will, I
> can then store all kinds of information and advance it even to the next
> level... but there's all these barrier with transactions and locks but this
> functional programming idea might be pretty good to apply(even though I
> envisioned a system where everything would be global(ly accessible)
> restrictions can still apply in dependency style like A depends on B and C
> depends on B, so if I want to change B then the way A and C depend on B
> have to be satisfied before the change can occur or that change will have
> to include changes to A and/or C also).
>
>
> Sorry for the rant, it's just that i feel lost so far(and not very
> knowledgeable). I just imagine how awesome it would be to can explore a
> system (PC+OS+java+clojure+some window+some text+some word on it) of which
> say you know nothing of, from a point (any point you choose) and be able to
> understand it and see how everything interconnects to everything else (no
> data/level/layer stripped just like the .exe is without the sourcecode for
> example), because everything you need is there, visually explorable(maybe
> graph like) and even changeable, if you just need to know exactly how is
> some word(or even a pixel) on the screen connected to everything else for
> example you could dig in - I don't know how it would look and how to
> implement that so far, but i know I want it, and apparently I'm reluctant
> to accepting the status quo even though that's the only way to get there :/
> It can still be fast even though all the debug info (so to speak) and
> source code is tagged/connected to the binary code/offsets  I imagine.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 6:51 PM, Mikera wrote:
>
>> On Wednesday, 22 May 2013 20:35:01 UTC+8, atkaaz wrote:
>>
>>> thank you very much, my search has lead me to seeking a lisp that could
>>> compile to machine code (mainly because i cannot accept the 20-22 sec `lein
>>> repl` startup time and eclipse/ccw memory consumptions - so I was hoping
>>> for something fast even though the cost is portability and all else)
>>>
>>>
>> The above strikes me as a slightly odd statement. Eclipse/CCW or lein
>> repl startup times should be irrelevant because you should only be
>> incurring them once, when starting a development session. Sure, Eclipse
>> eats memory too, but again this is only a development time issue and your
>> dev machi

Re: asm-based clojure yet?

[atkaaz]

Looks like I forgot to enable the paging file (windows virtual memory was
disabled) and that is why my eclipse/firefox would crash when running out
of memory  and also had much eclipse.ini memory allocated -Xms228m -Xmx712m
; and because of all these I was unable to start repl most of the time in
ccw due to not enough memory(it said), so due to your comment (thank you),
I've fixed those and set -Xms128m -Xmx512m but will probably go back to 712
(it's ok now since I've the paging file); but the memory total is like
3.5gig since 512 is eaten by video card memory.

So now at least I can run them without running out of memory all the time
:) but they still use quite a lot and I found myself having to run lein
commands (like lein test) and restarting repls enough times for it to make
me want something else - but I am an odd ball, so it's not something
everyone else will do.

Honestly I really want a system where things are more accessible,
unfortunately I can't explain this (i'll try if u really want me to) for
example I really enjoyed the F3 in eclipse on java source code which would
do Go to Definition/Declaration (of this identifier), and also the find all
calls to this method in this project and the refactoring... this kind of
connectivity I'd expect to be in the system (from what I've read some Lisp
machines(?) or the lisp lang on some machines really have that was it
Genera ? and some read about Dynamic Windows  but I also remember something
vaguely about ruby - haven't used it though). In a more broader way, I want
to be able to explore/deduce the system without having to jump through
hoops like googling for information about it, when in fact I already have
it running on my system, why not just explore its construction live while
it's running, visualize all its connections (like in a graph)

I like this clojure lang because it gets me closer to the way I want things
to be, but it feels all so disconnected like I can't feel that when writing
some code I can just easily F3 on a symbol and see where else it was used
or even defined(sometimes this works in ccw btw ie. for clojure core code)


So far, I'm thinking maybe code something from assembler level up (maybe
even not requiring garbage collector but still not using explicit mem
allocations like malloc) so it will eventually become a replacement for
whatever I use for text editor, and if it does the way I think it will, I
can then store all kinds of information and advance it even to the next
level... but there's all these barrier with transactions and locks but this
functional programming idea might be pretty good to apply(even though I
envisioned a system where everything would be global(ly accessible)
restrictions can still apply in dependency style like A depends on B and C
depends on B, so if I want to change B then the way A and C depend on B
have to be satisfied before the change can occur or that change will have
to include changes to A and/or C also).


Sorry for the rant, it's just that i feel lost so far(and not very
knowledgeable). I just imagine how awesome it would be to can explore a
system (PC+OS+java+clojure+some window+some text+some word on it) of which
say you know nothing of, from a point (any point you choose) and be able to
understand it and see how everything interconnects to everything else (no
data/level/layer stripped just like the .exe is without the sourcecode for
example), because everything you need is there, visually explorable(maybe
graph like) and even changeable, if you just need to know exactly how is
some word(or even a pixel) on the screen connected to everything else for
example you could dig in - I don't know how it would look and how to
implement that so far, but i know I want it, and apparently I'm reluctant
to accepting the status quo even though that's the only way to get there :/
It can still be fast even though all the debug info (so to speak) and
source code is tagged/connected to the binary code/offsets  I imagine.





On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 6:51 PM, Mikera wrote:

> On Wednesday, 22 May 2013 20:35:01 UTC+8, atkaaz wrote:
>
>> thank you very much, my search has lead me to seeking a lisp that could
>> compile to machine code (mainly because i cannot accept the 20-22 sec `lein
>> repl` startup time and eclipse/ccw memory consumptions - so I was hoping
>> for something fast even though the cost is portability and all else)
>>
>>
> The above strikes me as a slightly odd statement. Eclipse/CCW or lein repl
> startup times should be irrelevant because you should only be incurring
> them once, when starting a development session. Sure, Eclipse eats memory
> too, but again this is only a development time issue and your dev machine
> should have plenty, right?
>
> In production, running the packaged .jar file should be pretty quick and
> much more lightweight. JVM startup is less than 0.1sec nowadays, so you can
> get a splash screen or basic GUI up in front of a user almost immediately.
> That only leaves the tim

Re: asm-based clojure yet?

[Mikera]

On Wednesday, 22 May 2013 20:35:01 UTC+8, atkaaz wrote:

> thank you very much, my search has lead me to seeking a lisp that could 
> compile to machine code (mainly because i cannot accept the 20-22 sec `lein 
> repl` startup time and eclipse/ccw memory consumptions - so I was hoping 
> for something fast even though the cost is portability and all else)
>
>
The above strikes me as a slightly odd statement. Eclipse/CCW or lein repl 
startup times should be irrelevant because you should only be incurring 
them once, when starting a development session. Sure, Eclipse eats memory 
too, but again this is only a development time issue and your dev machine 
should have plenty, right?

In production, running the packaged .jar file should be pretty quick and 
much more lightweight. JVM startup is less than 0.1sec nowadays, so you can 
get a splash screen or basic GUI up in front of a user almost immediately. 
That only leaves the time required to compile and initialise Clojure itself 
and your application code - maybe 5 secs or so for a reasonably sized app. 
If you are smart you can do quite a lot of work lazily / in the background 
so the user doesn't even notice

I can certainly see some uses for a Clojure-to-assembler compiler, but only 
in very specialised areas (embedded devices, realtime systems etc.). For 
general purpose application development I think it's probably going to be 
more trouble than it is worth.
 

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Re: asm-based clojure yet?

[atkaaz]

thank you very much, my search has lead me to seeking a lisp that could
compile to machine code (mainly because i cannot accept the 20-22 sec `lein
repl` startup time and eclipse/ccw memory consumptions - so I was hoping
for something fast even though the cost is portability and all else)


On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 3:10 PM, Julian  wrote:

> One more thought on the broader ideas of LISPy languages and ASM. One of
> the versions of Crash Bandicoot was developed in Game Oriented Assembly
> LISP (GOAL) - which was a common LISP DSL that generated assembler.
>
> I recalled this today because Michael Fogus tweeted about it:
> https://twitter.com/fogus/status/336865798628966400
>
> If you're a hobbyist dabbling in this space then you might find reading
> about it interesting and inspiring:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_Oriented_Assembly_Lisp
>
> http://all-things-andy-gavin.com/2011/03/12/making-crash-bandicoot-gool-part-9/
>
> JG
>
>
> On Sunday, 19 May 2013 01:49:43 UTC+10, Gary Trakhman wrote:
>
>> It's hard to really appreciate java and clojure until you actually write
>> some C/C++ or ASM.. I have some minor experience with that stuff, and it
>> still haunts me from time to time.
>>
>> Sometimes we make tradeoffs without knowing we did.  By choosing a
>> language, or having the choice made for us, we accept a set of abstractions
>> as our bottom level of thinking for a problem-space.  Only old-timers and
>> people that make a point to care about low-level stuff will notice the
>> implications of what they're doing along the abstraction stack.  People
>> with ingrained habits just won't find it easy to think functionally, but
>> I'm young and irreverent, so it doesn't bother me :-).
>>
>> C++ is fun because of all the bolted-on kludges that 'mitigate' these
>> problems.  You can use operator-overloading on pointer operations to
>> perform automatic reference counting, deallocating objects when things that
>> point to them go out of scope, but I think implementing a PersistentHashMap
>> this way would be very difficult.  Also, pretty sure it can't handle cycles.
>>
>> I guess the point is, I appreciate any effort to understand such issues,
>> it's been a useful thing for me to know in the 0.05% of time that knowledge
>> is needed.
>>
>> But, people who don't know just won't be able to get past those problems.
>>  And, you generally can't easily find a _really_ full-stack guy to glance
>> at it for you when it would be useful to have one.
>>
>> On Sat, May 18, 2013 at 11:24 AM, atkaaz  wrote:
>>
>>> your comment caused me to be reading this http://prog21.dadgum.com/134.*
>>> *html 
>>>   (at least)
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, May 18, 2013 at 6:17 PM, Gary Trakhman wrote:
>>>
 Immutability, persistence, closures without a serious garbage collector
 sounds hard.


 On Sat, May 18, 2013 at 1:09 AM, atkaaz  wrote:

> Thanks very much everyone! I'm looking into all of those, but
> currently planning to read Julian's pdf. I didn't want to say anything
> until I had something definite, but just letting y'all know that I'm
> considering each recommendation.
>
>
> On Sat, May 18, 2013 at 7:12 AM, Julian  wrote:
>
>> If you had a hobbyist interest in representing S-expressions in
>> assembler - then you could take a look at the tutorial written by 
>> Abdulaziz
>> Ghuloum called "Compilers: Backend to Frontend and Back to Front Again". 
>> It
>> used to be available here: http://www.cs.indiana.**
>> edu/~aghuloum/compilers-**tutorial-2006-09-16.pdf
>>
>> I don't know if it available anywhere else on the internet - but I
>> grabbed another copy and put it here: https://sites.google.**
>> com/site/juliangamble/Home/**Compilers%20Tutorial%202006-**
>> 09-16.pdf?attredirects=0&d=1
>>
>> For a more serious representation of Clojure's persistent data
>> structures, I don't recommend trying to implement them in ASM.
>>
>> Cheers
>> Julian
>>
>>
>> On Friday, 17 May 2013 22:06:45 UTC+10, Alan D. Salewski wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, May 17, 2013 at 02:10:02PM +0300, atkaaz spake thus:
>>> > Ok, weird question: is there some clojure port on assembler yet?
>>> Even
>>> > if(/especially if) it doesn't have jvm/java/javalibs support
>>> >
>>> > Or should I just check 
>>> > https://github.com/clojure/**clo**jure-clr?
>>> >
>>> > I'm mainly interested in low memory footprint and fast startup
>>> times (does
>>> > clojure-clr have that?)
>>>
>>> You may want to check out ClojureScript, too. ClojureScript programs
>>> leveraging nodejs for host interop have fast startup times:
>>>
>>> 
>>>

Re: asm-based clojure yet?

[Julian]

One more thought on the broader ideas of LISPy languages and ASM. One of 
the versions of Crash Bandicoot was developed in Game Oriented Assembly 
LISP (GOAL) - which was a common LISP DSL that generated assembler. 

I recalled this today because Michael Fogus tweeted about it:
https://twitter.com/fogus/status/336865798628966400

If you're a hobbyist dabbling in this space then you might find reading 
about it interesting and inspiring:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_Oriented_Assembly_Lisp
http://all-things-andy-gavin.com/2011/03/12/making-crash-bandicoot-gool-part-9/

JG

On Sunday, 19 May 2013 01:49:43 UTC+10, Gary Trakhman wrote:
>
> It's hard to really appreciate java and clojure until you actually write 
> some C/C++ or ASM.. I have some minor experience with that stuff, and it 
> still haunts me from time to time. 
>
> Sometimes we make tradeoffs without knowing we did.  By choosing a 
> language, or having the choice made for us, we accept a set of abstractions 
> as our bottom level of thinking for a problem-space.  Only old-timers and 
> people that make a point to care about low-level stuff will notice the 
> implications of what they're doing along the abstraction stack.  People 
> with ingrained habits just won't find it easy to think functionally, but 
> I'm young and irreverent, so it doesn't bother me :-).
>
> C++ is fun because of all the bolted-on kludges that 'mitigate' these 
> problems.  You can use operator-overloading on pointer operations to 
> perform automatic reference counting, deallocating objects when things that 
> point to them go out of scope, but I think implementing a PersistentHashMap 
> this way would be very difficult.  Also, pretty sure it can't handle cycles.
>
> I guess the point is, I appreciate any effort to understand such issues, 
> it's been a useful thing for me to know in the 0.05% of time that knowledge 
> is needed.
>
> But, people who don't know just won't be able to get past those problems. 
>  And, you generally can't easily find a _really_ full-stack guy to glance 
> at it for you when it would be useful to have one.
>
> On Sat, May 18, 2013 at 11:24 AM, atkaaz  >wrote:
>
>> your comment caused me to be reading this 
>> http://prog21.dadgum.com/134.html
>>   (at least)
>>
>>
>> On Sat, May 18, 2013 at 6:17 PM, Gary Trakhman 
>> 
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> Immutability, persistence, closures without a serious garbage collector 
>>> sounds hard.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, May 18, 2013 at 1:09 AM, atkaaz >> >wrote:
>>>
 Thanks very much everyone! I'm looking into all of those, but currently 
 planning to read Julian's pdf. I didn't want to say anything until I had 
 something definite, but just letting y'all know that I'm considering each 
 recommendation.


 On Sat, May 18, 2013 at 7:12 AM, Julian 
 > wrote:

> If you had a hobbyist interest in representing S-expressions in 
> assembler - then you could take a look at the tutorial written by 
> Abdulaziz 
> Ghuloum called "Compilers: Backend to Frontend and Back to Front Again". 
> It 
> used to be available here: 
> http://www.cs.indiana.edu/~aghuloum/compilers-tutorial-2006-09-16.pdf
>
> I don't know if it available anywhere else on the internet - but I 
> grabbed another copy and put it here: 
> https://sites.google.com/site/juliangamble/Home/Compilers%20Tutorial%202006-09-16.pdf?attredirects=0&d=1
>
> For a more serious representation of Clojure's persistent data 
> structures, I don't recommend trying to implement them in ASM. 
>
> Cheers
> Julian
>
>
> On Friday, 17 May 2013 22:06:45 UTC+10, Alan D. Salewski wrote:
>
>> On Fri, May 17, 2013 at 02:10:02PM +0300, atkaaz spake thus: 
>> > Ok, weird question: is there some clojure port on assembler yet? 
>> Even 
>> > if(/especially if) it doesn't have jvm/java/javalibs support 
>> > 
>> > Or should I just check 
>> > https://github.com/clojure/**clojure-clr?
>> >  
>> > 
>> > I'm mainly interested in low memory footprint and fast startup 
>> times (does 
>> > clojure-clr have that?) 
>>
>> You may want to check out ClojureScript, too. ClojureScript programs 
>> leveraging nodejs for host interop have fast startup times: 
>>
>> 
>> https://github.com/clojure/**clojurescript/wiki
>>  
>>
>> -- 
>> --**--**- 
>>
>> a l a n   d.   s a l e w s k i   sale...@att.net 
>> 1024D/FA2C3588 EDFA 195F EDF1 0933 1002  6396 7C92 5CB3 FA2C 3588 
>> --**--**- 
>>
>>
>  -- 
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "Clojure" group.
> To post to this group, send email to c

Re: asm-based clojure yet?

[Gary Trakhman]

It's hard to really appreciate java and clojure until you actually write
some C/C++ or ASM.. I have some minor experience with that stuff, and it
still haunts me from time to time.

Sometimes we make tradeoffs without knowing we did.  By choosing a
language, or having the choice made for us, we accept a set of abstractions
as our bottom level of thinking for a problem-space.  Only old-timers and
people that make a point to care about low-level stuff will notice the
implications of what they're doing along the abstraction stack.  People
with ingrained habits just won't find it easy to think functionally, but
I'm young and irreverent, so it doesn't bother me :-).

C++ is fun because of all the bolted-on kludges that 'mitigate' these
problems.  You can use operator-overloading on pointer operations to
perform automatic reference counting, deallocating objects when things that
point to them go out of scope, but I think implementing a PersistentHashMap
this way would be very difficult.  Also, pretty sure it can't handle cycles.

I guess the point is, I appreciate any effort to understand such issues,
it's been a useful thing for me to know in the 0.05% of time that knowledge
is needed.

But, people who don't know just won't be able to get past those problems.
 And, you generally can't easily find a _really_ full-stack guy to glance
at it for you when it would be useful to have one.

On Sat, May 18, 2013 at 11:24 AM, atkaaz  wrote:

> your comment caused me to be reading this
> http://prog21.dadgum.com/134.html
>   (at least)
>
>
> On Sat, May 18, 2013 at 6:17 PM, Gary Trakhman wrote:
>
>> Immutability, persistence, closures without a serious garbage collector
>> sounds hard.
>>
>>
>> On Sat, May 18, 2013 at 1:09 AM, atkaaz  wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks very much everyone! I'm looking into all of those, but currently
>>> planning to read Julian's pdf. I didn't want to say anything until I had
>>> something definite, but just letting y'all know that I'm considering each
>>> recommendation.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, May 18, 2013 at 7:12 AM, Julian  wrote:
>>>
 If you had a hobbyist interest in representing S-expressions in
 assembler - then you could take a look at the tutorial written by Abdulaziz
 Ghuloum called "Compilers: Backend to Frontend and Back to Front Again". It
 used to be available here:
 http://www.cs.indiana.edu/~aghuloum/compilers-tutorial-2006-09-16.pdf

 I don't know if it available anywhere else on the internet - but I
 grabbed another copy and put it here:
 https://sites.google.com/site/juliangamble/Home/Compilers%20Tutorial%202006-09-16.pdf?attredirects=0&d=1

 For a more serious representation of Clojure's persistent data
 structures, I don't recommend trying to implement them in ASM.

 Cheers
 Julian


 On Friday, 17 May 2013 22:06:45 UTC+10, Alan D. Salewski wrote:

> On Fri, May 17, 2013 at 02:10:02PM +0300, atkaaz spake thus:
> > Ok, weird question: is there some clojure port on assembler yet?
> Even
> > if(/especially if) it doesn't have jvm/java/javalibs support
> >
> > Or should I just check 
> > https://github.com/clojure/**clojure-clr?
> >
> > I'm mainly interested in low memory footprint and fast startup times
> (does
> > clojure-clr have that?)
>
> You may want to check out ClojureScript, too. ClojureScript programs
> leveraging nodejs for host interop have fast startup times:
>
> 
> https://github.com/clojure/**clojurescript/wiki
>
> --
> --**--**-
> a l a n   d.   s a l e w s k i   sale...@att.net
> 1024D/FA2C3588 EDFA 195F EDF1 0933 1002  6396 7C92 5CB3 FA2C 3588
> --**--**-
>
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 --
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>>>
>>>  --
>>> --
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
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>>> To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com
>>> Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be

Re: asm-based clojure yet?

[atkaaz]

your comment caused me to be reading this http://prog21.dadgum.com/134.html
  (at least)


On Sat, May 18, 2013 at 6:17 PM, Gary Trakhman wrote:

> Immutability, persistence, closures without a serious garbage collector
> sounds hard.
>
>
> On Sat, May 18, 2013 at 1:09 AM, atkaaz  wrote:
>
>> Thanks very much everyone! I'm looking into all of those, but currently
>> planning to read Julian's pdf. I didn't want to say anything until I had
>> something definite, but just letting y'all know that I'm considering each
>> recommendation.
>>
>>
>> On Sat, May 18, 2013 at 7:12 AM, Julian  wrote:
>>
>>> If you had a hobbyist interest in representing S-expressions in
>>> assembler - then you could take a look at the tutorial written by Abdulaziz
>>> Ghuloum called "Compilers: Backend to Frontend and Back to Front Again". It
>>> used to be available here:
>>> http://www.cs.indiana.edu/~aghuloum/compilers-tutorial-2006-09-16.pdf
>>>
>>> I don't know if it available anywhere else on the internet - but I
>>> grabbed another copy and put it here:
>>> https://sites.google.com/site/juliangamble/Home/Compilers%20Tutorial%202006-09-16.pdf?attredirects=0&d=1
>>>
>>> For a more serious representation of Clojure's persistent data
>>> structures, I don't recommend trying to implement them in ASM.
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>> Julian
>>>
>>>
>>> On Friday, 17 May 2013 22:06:45 UTC+10, Alan D. Salewski wrote:
>>>
 On Fri, May 17, 2013 at 02:10:02PM +0300, atkaaz spake thus:
 > Ok, weird question: is there some clojure port on assembler yet? Even
 > if(/especially if) it doesn't have jvm/java/javalibs support
 >
 > Or should I just check 
 > https://github.com/clojure/**clojure-clr?
 >
 > I'm mainly interested in low memory footprint and fast startup times
 (does
 > clojure-clr have that?)

 You may want to check out ClojureScript, too. ClojureScript programs
 leveraging nodejs for host interop have fast startup times:

 
 https://github.com/clojure/**clojurescript/wiki

 --
 --**--**-
 a l a n   d.   s a l e w s k i   sale...@att.net
 1024D/FA2C3588 EDFA 195F EDF1 0933 1002  6396 7C92 5CB3 FA2C 3588
 --**--**-

>>>  --
>>> --
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>>>
>>>
>>
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Re: asm-based clojure yet?

[Gary Trakhman]

Immutability, persistence, closures without a serious garbage collector
sounds hard.


On Sat, May 18, 2013 at 1:09 AM, atkaaz  wrote:

> Thanks very much everyone! I'm looking into all of those, but currently
> planning to read Julian's pdf. I didn't want to say anything until I had
> something definite, but just letting y'all know that I'm considering each
> recommendation.
>
>
> On Sat, May 18, 2013 at 7:12 AM, Julian  wrote:
>
>> If you had a hobbyist interest in representing S-expressions in assembler
>> - then you could take a look at the tutorial written by Abdulaziz Ghuloum
>> called "Compilers: Backend to Frontend and Back to Front Again". It used to
>> be available here:
>> http://www.cs.indiana.edu/~aghuloum/compilers-tutorial-2006-09-16.pdf
>>
>> I don't know if it available anywhere else on the internet - but I
>> grabbed another copy and put it here:
>> https://sites.google.com/site/juliangamble/Home/Compilers%20Tutorial%202006-09-16.pdf?attredirects=0&d=1
>>
>> For a more serious representation of Clojure's persistent data
>> structures, I don't recommend trying to implement them in ASM.
>>
>> Cheers
>> Julian
>>
>>
>> On Friday, 17 May 2013 22:06:45 UTC+10, Alan D. Salewski wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, May 17, 2013 at 02:10:02PM +0300, atkaaz spake thus:
>>> > Ok, weird question: is there some clojure port on assembler yet? Even
>>> > if(/especially if) it doesn't have jvm/java/javalibs support
>>> >
>>> > Or should I just check 
>>> > https://github.com/clojure/**clojure-clr?
>>> >
>>> > I'm mainly interested in low memory footprint and fast startup times
>>> (does
>>> > clojure-clr have that?)
>>>
>>> You may want to check out ClojureScript, too. ClojureScript programs
>>> leveraging nodejs for host interop have fast startup times:
>>>
>>> 
>>> https://github.com/clojure/**clojurescript/wiki
>>>
>>> --
>>> --**--**-
>>> a l a n   d.   s a l e w s k i   sale...@att.net
>>> 1024D/FA2C3588 EDFA 195F EDF1 0933 1002  6396 7C92 5CB3 FA2C 3588
>>> --**--**-
>>>
>>  --
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>> Groups "Clojure" group.
>> To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com
>> Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with
>> your first post.
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>>
>>
>
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Re: asm-based clojure yet?

[atkaaz]

Thanks very much everyone! I'm looking into all of those, but currently
planning to read Julian's pdf. I didn't want to say anything until I had
something definite, but just letting y'all know that I'm considering each
recommendation.


On Sat, May 18, 2013 at 7:12 AM, Julian  wrote:

> If you had a hobbyist interest in representing S-expressions in assembler
> - then you could take a look at the tutorial written by Abdulaziz Ghuloum
> called "Compilers: Backend to Frontend and Back to Front Again". It used to
> be available here:
> http://www.cs.indiana.edu/~aghuloum/compilers-tutorial-2006-09-16.pdf
>
> I don't know if it available anywhere else on the internet - but I grabbed
> another copy and put it here:
> https://sites.google.com/site/juliangamble/Home/Compilers%20Tutorial%202006-09-16.pdf?attredirects=0&d=1
>
> For a more serious representation of Clojure's persistent data structures,
> I don't recommend trying to implement them in ASM.
>
> Cheers
> Julian
>
>
> On Friday, 17 May 2013 22:06:45 UTC+10, Alan D. Salewski wrote:
>
>> On Fri, May 17, 2013 at 02:10:02PM +0300, atkaaz spake thus:
>> > Ok, weird question: is there some clojure port on assembler yet? Even
>> > if(/especially if) it doesn't have jvm/java/javalibs support
>> >
>> > Or should I just check 
>> > https://github.com/clojure/**clojure-clr?
>> >
>> > I'm mainly interested in low memory footprint and fast startup times
>> (does
>> > clojure-clr have that?)
>>
>> You may want to check out ClojureScript, too. ClojureScript programs
>> leveraging nodejs for host interop have fast startup times:
>>
>> 
>> https://github.com/clojure/**clojurescript/wiki
>>
>> --
>> --**--**-
>> a l a n   d.   s a l e w s k i   sale...@att.net
>> 1024D/FA2C3588 EDFA 195F EDF1 0933 1002  6396 7C92 5CB3 FA2C 3588
>> --**--**-
>>
>  --
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "Clojure" group.
> To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com
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Re: asm-based clojure yet?

[Julian]

If you had a hobbyist interest in representing S-expressions in assembler - 
then you could take a look at the tutorial written by Abdulaziz Ghuloum 
called "Compilers: Backend to Frontend and Back to Front Again". It used to 
be available 
here: http://www.cs.indiana.edu/~aghuloum/compilers-tutorial-2006-09-16.pdf

I don't know if it available anywhere else on the internet - but I grabbed 
another copy and put it 
here: 
https://sites.google.com/site/juliangamble/Home/Compilers%20Tutorial%202006-09-16.pdf?attredirects=0&d=1

For a more serious representation of Clojure's persistent data structures, 
I don't recommend trying to implement them in ASM. 

Cheers
Julian

On Friday, 17 May 2013 22:06:45 UTC+10, Alan D. Salewski wrote:
>
> On Fri, May 17, 2013 at 02:10:02PM +0300, atkaaz spake thus: 
> > Ok, weird question: is there some clojure port on assembler yet? Even 
> > if(/especially if) it doesn't have jvm/java/javalibs support 
> > 
> > Or should I just check https://github.com/clojure/clojure-clr ? 
> > 
> > I'm mainly interested in low memory footprint and fast startup times 
> (does 
> > clojure-clr have that?) 
>
> You may want to check out ClojureScript, too. ClojureScript programs 
> leveraging nodejs for host interop have fast startup times: 
>
> https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/wiki 
>
> -- 
> - 
> a l a n   d.   s a l e w s k i   sale...@att.net 
> 1024D/FA2C3588 EDFA 195F EDF1 0933 1002  6396 7C92 5CB3 FA2C 3588 
> - 
>

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Re: asm-based clojure yet?

[Alan D. Salewski]

On Fri, May 17, 2013 at 02:10:02PM +0300, atkaaz spake thus:
> Ok, weird question: is there some clojure port on assembler yet? Even
> if(/especially if) it doesn't have jvm/java/javalibs support
> 
> Or should I just check https://github.com/clojure/clojure-clr ?
> 
> I'm mainly interested in low memory footprint and fast startup times (does
> clojure-clr have that?)

You may want to check out ClojureScript, too. ClojureScript programs
leveraging nodejs for host interop have fast startup times:

https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/wiki

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Re: asm-based clojure yet?

[Gary Trakhman]

I think these qualify as low-footprint clojures:

https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript on node..
https://github.com/takeoutweight/clojure-scheme compiles to native
https://github.com/halgari/mjolnir llvm targets.


On Fri, May 17, 2013 at 7:10 AM, atkaaz  wrote:

> Ok, weird question: is there some clojure port on assembler yet? Even
> if(/especially if) it doesn't have jvm/java/javalibs support
>
> Or should I just check https://github.com/clojure/clojure-clr ?
>
> I'm mainly interested in low memory footprint and fast startup times (does
> clojure-clr have that?)
>
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asm-based clojure yet?

[atkaaz]

Ok, weird question: is there some clojure port on assembler yet? Even
if(/especially if) it doesn't have jvm/java/javalibs support

Or should I just check https://github.com/clojure/clojure-clr ?

I'm mainly interested in low memory footprint and fast startup times (does
clojure-clr have that?)

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