core.logic: Dividing the knowledge base

[JvJ]

I'm creating something with core.logic that involves multiple "agents"(not 
the same as a clojure agent!) which each have distinct knowledge.  I'd like 
to know the best way of going about separating the knowledge base so that 
it can be accessed by each agent individually.

The simplest thing I can think of is to define each relation with an 
additional agent parameter, but that seems sloppy and I'm not sure if it 
would be efficient.  Is this a good approach, or is there something better 
I can do?

Thanks

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Re: core.logic: Dividing the knowledge base

[David Nolen]

Sounds like an interesting idea though I can't give much guidance about how
to approach it. Curious to know how it goes though!


On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 3:50 PM, JvJ  wrote:

>
> I'm creating something with core.logic that involves multiple "agents"(not
> the same as a clojure agent!) which each have distinct knowledge.  I'd like
> to know the best way of going about separating the knowledge base so that
> it can be accessed by each agent individually.
>
> The simplest thing I can think of is to define each relation with an
> additional agent parameter, but that seems sloppy and I'm not sure if it
> would be efficient.  Is this a good approach, or is there something better
> I can do?
>
> Thanks
>
> --
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Re: core.logic: Dividing the knowledge base

[JvJ]

Thanks for the quick reply.  I guess I'll go through with my initial plan 
and see what happens.  Thanks.

On Wednesday, 27 February 2013 16:14:49 UTC-5, David Nolen wrote:
>
> Sounds like an interesting idea though I can't give much guidance about 
> how to approach it. Curious to know how it goes though!
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 3:50 PM, JvJ >wrote:
>
>>
>> I'm creating something with core.logic that involves multiple 
>> "agents"(not the same as a clojure agent!) which each have distinct 
>> knowledge.  I'd like to know the best way of going about separating the 
>> knowledge base so that it can be accessed by each agent individually.
>>
>> The simplest thing I can think of is to define each relation with an 
>> additional agent parameter, but that seems sloppy and I'm not sure if it 
>> would be efficient.  Is this a good approach, or is there something better 
>> I can do?
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> -- 
>> -- 
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>>  
>>  
>>
>
>

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Re: core.logic: Dividing the knowledge base

[JvJ]

Actually, I have a quick question.  How could I modify the following code 
to add some metadata to he newly defined relation?

(defmacro defkrel
  "Macro for defining knowledge-based relations."
  [nme & rest]
  `(defrel ~nme
 ~'agent
 ~@rest))



On Wednesday, 27 February 2013 16:17:30 UTC-5, JvJ wrote:
>
> Thanks for the quick reply.  I guess I'll go through with my initial plan 
> and see what happens.  Thanks.
>
> On Wednesday, 27 February 2013 16:14:49 UTC-5, David Nolen wrote:
>>
>> Sounds like an interesting idea though I can't give much guidance about 
>> how to approach it. Curious to know how it goes though!
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 3:50 PM, JvJ  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I'm creating something with core.logic that involves multiple 
>>> "agents"(not the same as a clojure agent!) which each have distinct 
>>> knowledge.  I'd like to know the best way of going about separating the 
>>> knowledge base so that it can be accessed by each agent individually.
>>>
>>> The simplest thing I can think of is to define each relation with an 
>>> additional agent parameter, but that seems sloppy and I'm not sure if it 
>>> would be efficient.  Is this a good approach, or is there something better 
>>> I can do?
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> -- 
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>>>  
>>>  
>>>
>>
>>

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Re: core.logic: Dividing the knowledge base

[David Nolen]

Hrm, how are you going to consume that metadata?


On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 4:26 PM, JvJ  wrote:

> Actually, I have a quick question.  How could I modify the following code
> to add some metadata to he newly defined relation?
>
> (defmacro defkrel
>   "Macro for defining knowledge-based relations."
>   [nme & rest]
>   `(defrel ~nme
>  ~'agent
>  ~@rest))
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, 27 February 2013 16:17:30 UTC-5, JvJ wrote:
>>
>> Thanks for the quick reply.  I guess I'll go through with my initial plan
>> and see what happens.  Thanks.
>>
>> On Wednesday, 27 February 2013 16:14:49 UTC-5, David Nolen wrote:
>>>
>>> Sounds like an interesting idea though I can't give much guidance about
>>> how to approach it. Curious to know how it goes though!
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 3:50 PM, JvJ  wrote:
>>>

 I'm creating something with core.logic that involves multiple
 "agents"(not the same as a clojure agent!) which each have distinct
 knowledge.  I'd like to know the best way of going about separating the
 knowledge base so that it can be accessed by each agent individually.

 The simplest thing I can think of is to define each relation with an
 additional agent parameter, but that seems sloppy and I'm not sure if it
 would be efficient.  Is this a good approach, or is there something better
 I can do?

 Thanks

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Re: core.logic: Dividing the knowledge base

[JvJ]

Actually, I figured it out.  I just didn't realize you had to do the #' 
thing to get the meta from a function.

But!  I'm basically going to write a variation of run* that binds an agent 
to the first argument of any "knowledge-based" relations.  So, if they have 
something like {:knowledge true} in their metadata, the first argument is 
replaced with the agent.

On Wednesday, 27 February 2013 16:29:24 UTC-5, David Nolen wrote:
>
> Hrm, how are you going to consume that metadata?
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 4:26 PM, JvJ >wrote:
>
>> Actually, I have a quick question.  How could I modify the following code 
>> to add some metadata to he newly defined relation?
>>
>> (defmacro defkrel
>>   "Macro for defining knowledge-based relations."
>>   [nme & rest]
>>   `(defrel ~nme
>>  ~'agent
>>  ~@rest))
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wednesday, 27 February 2013 16:17:30 UTC-5, JvJ wrote:
>>>
>>> Thanks for the quick reply.  I guess I'll go through with my initial 
>>> plan and see what happens.  Thanks.
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, 27 February 2013 16:14:49 UTC-5, David Nolen wrote:

 Sounds like an interesting idea though I can't give much guidance about 
 how to approach it. Curious to know how it goes though!


 On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 3:50 PM, JvJ  wrote:

>
> I'm creating something with core.logic that involves multiple 
> "agents"(not the same as a clojure agent!) which each have distinct 
> knowledge.  I'd like to know the best way of going about separating the 
> knowledge base so that it can be accessed by each agent individually.
>
> The simplest thing I can think of is to define each relation with an 
> additional agent parameter, but that seems sloppy and I'm not sure if it 
> would be efficient.  Is this a good approach, or is there something 
> better 
> I can do?
>
> Thanks
>
> -- 
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
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> .
>  
>  
>

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>>  
>>  
>>
>
>

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Re: core.logic: Dividing the knowledge base

[Norman Richards]

On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 2:50 PM, JvJ  wrote:

>
> I'm creating something with core.logic that involves multiple "agents"(not
> the same as a clojure agent!) which each have distinct knowledge.  I'd like
> to know the best way of going about separating the knowledge base so that
> it can be accessed by each agent individually.
>
> The simplest thing I can think of is to define each relation with an
> additional agent parameter, but that seems sloppy and I'm not sure if it
> would be efficient.  Is this a good approach, or is there something better
> I can do?
>


Threatgrid had the problem of wanting to have distinct datasets over the
same relations.  Our solutions was to declare facts in to a persistent
logic db and refer them explicitly when performing queries.  I've released
part of that work here:

https://github.com/threatgrid/pldb

There's a branch with indexing support on my fork, and I have a few other
enhancements queued up.  We use this code on some very large datasets and
it is working well for us.

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Re: core.logic: Dividing the knowledge base

[David Nolen]

I'm also enthusiastic about eventually replacing the current core.logic
defrel/fact stuff with this excellent work.

David


On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 4:45 PM, Norman Richards wrote:

>
>
> On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 2:50 PM, JvJ  wrote:
>
>>
>> I'm creating something with core.logic that involves multiple
>> "agents"(not the same as a clojure agent!) which each have distinct
>> knowledge.  I'd like to know the best way of going about separating the
>> knowledge base so that it can be accessed by each agent individually.
>>
>> The simplest thing I can think of is to define each relation with an
>> additional agent parameter, but that seems sloppy and I'm not sure if it
>> would be efficient.  Is this a good approach, or is there something better
>> I can do?
>>
>
>
> Threatgrid had the problem of wanting to have distinct datasets over the
> same relations.  Our solutions was to declare facts in to a persistent
> logic db and refer them explicitly when performing queries.  I've released
> part of that work here:
>
> https://github.com/threatgrid/pldb
>
> There's a branch with indexing support on my fork, and I have a few other
> enhancements queued up.  We use this code on some very large datasets and
> it is working well for us.
>
>
>
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>

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Re: core.logic: Dividing the knowledge base

[JvJ]

Wow.  Thanks, this will probably help a lot!

On Wednesday, 27 February 2013 16:45:07 UTC-5, Norman Richards wrote:
>
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 2:50 PM, JvJ >wrote:
>
>>
>> I'm creating something with core.logic that involves multiple 
>> "agents"(not the same as a clojure agent!) which each have distinct 
>> knowledge.  I'd like to know the best way of going about separating the 
>> knowledge base so that it can be accessed by each agent individually.
>>
>> The simplest thing I can think of is to define each relation with an 
>> additional agent parameter, but that seems sloppy and I'm not sure if it 
>> would be efficient.  Is this a good approach, or is there something better 
>> I can do?
>>
>
>  
> Threatgrid had the problem of wanting to have distinct datasets over the 
> same relations.  Our solutions was to declare facts in to a persistent 
> logic db and refer them explicitly when performing queries.  I've released 
> part of that work here:
>
> https://github.com/threatgrid/pldb 
>
> There's a branch with indexing support on my fork, and I have a few other 
> enhancements queued up.  We use this code on some very large datasets and 
> it is working well for us. 
>
>
>
>

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Re: core.logic: Dividing the knowledge base

[JvJ]

It states that retractions aren't yet implemented.  Is there any way to 
delete facts?

On Wednesday, 27 February 2013 16:45:07 UTC-5, Norman Richards wrote:
>
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 2:50 PM, JvJ >wrote:
>
>>
>> I'm creating something with core.logic that involves multiple 
>> "agents"(not the same as a clojure agent!) which each have distinct 
>> knowledge.  I'd like to know the best way of going about separating the 
>> knowledge base so that it can be accessed by each agent individually.
>>
>> The simplest thing I can think of is to define each relation with an 
>> additional agent parameter, but that seems sloppy and I'm not sure if it 
>> would be efficient.  Is this a good approach, or is there something better 
>> I can do?
>>
>
>  
> Threatgrid had the problem of wanting to have distinct datasets over the 
> same relations.  Our solutions was to declare facts in to a persistent 
> logic db and refer them explicitly when performing queries.  I've released 
> part of that work here:
>
> https://github.com/threatgrid/pldb 
>
> There's a branch with indexing support on my fork, and I have a few other 
> enhancements queued up.  We use this code on some very large datasets and 
> it is working well for us. 
>
>
>
>

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Re: core.logic: Dividing the knowledge base

[Norman Richards]

On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 4:03 PM, JvJ  wrote:

> It states that retractions aren't yet implemented.  Is there any way to
> delete facts?


This is something I want to add, and if it's something you could use now,
I'll bump up priority of getting that in.   What we do is just build a new
logic db for each runs with different facts, which is why it hasn't been
implemented yet.

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Re: core.logic: Dividing the knowledge base

[JvJ]

If it's not too much trouble, it's something I'd like to see, but I'm sure 
I can find a way around it somehow.

On Wednesday, 27 February 2013 17:08:24 UTC-5, Norman Richards wrote:
>
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 4:03 PM, JvJ >wrote:
>
>> It states that retractions aren't yet implemented.  Is there any way to 
>> delete facts?
>
>
> This is something I want to add, and if it's something you could use now, 
> I'll bump up priority of getting that in.   What we do is just build a new 
> logic db for each runs with different facts, which is why it hasn't been 
> implemented yet.
>  

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Re: core.logic: Dividing the knowledge base

[JvJ]

One more thing I'd like to ask.  Is it possible to combine the databases in 
a way?

For instance, I'd like to have a universal database that every agent can 
access, as well as agent-specific databases.  I understand that databases 
can be modified in a purely functional way (which is great), but I'm 
wondering if there's a way for changes in the universal database to be 
reflected in the others.

On Wednesday, 27 February 2013 17:12:24 UTC-5, JvJ wrote:
>
> If it's not too much trouble, it's something I'd like to see, but I'm sure 
> I can find a way around it somehow.
>
> On Wednesday, 27 February 2013 17:08:24 UTC-5, Norman Richards wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 4:03 PM, JvJ  wrote:
>>
>>> It states that retractions aren't yet implemented.  Is there any way to 
>>> delete facts?
>>
>>
>> This is something I want to add, and if it's something you could use now, 
>> I'll bump up priority of getting that in.   What we do is just build a new 
>> logic db for each runs with different facts, which is why it hasn't been 
>> implemented yet.
>>  
>

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Re: core.logic: Dividing the knowledge base

[Norman Richards]

On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 4:32 PM, JvJ  wrote:

> One more thing I'd like to ask.  Is it possible to combine the databases
> in a way?
>
> For instance, I'd like to have a universal database that every agent can
> access, as well as agent-specific databases.  I understand that databases
> can be modified in a purely functional way (which is great), but I'm
> wondering if there's a way for changes in the universal database to be
> reflected in the others.
>

I think it should be possible to support relations over multiple logic
databases.  I'm going to add that to the feature list.  I will try to get a
new release out this weekend.

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Re: core.logic: Dividing the knowledge base

[Norman Richards]

On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 4:03 PM, JvJ  wrote:

> It states that retractions aren't yet implemented.  Is there any way to
> delete facts?


Retractions are now supported.  DB merging and cross-DB logic queries are
still coming.  Feel free to comment on the github issues if you have
specific use cases in mind you would like to see this support.  I have some
specific ideas for things we want to do with this at Threatgrid, but that's
only one use case.

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Re: core.logic: Dividing the knowledge base

[JvJ]

Thanks so much!  I'll check it out tomorrow!

On Monday, 4 March 2013 10:51:48 UTC-5, Norman Richards wrote:
>
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 4:03 PM, JvJ >wrote:
>
>> It states that retractions aren't yet implemented.  Is there any way to 
>> delete facts?
>
>
> Retractions are now supported.  DB merging and cross-DB logic queries are 
> still coming.  Feel free to comment on the github issues if you have 
> specific use cases in mind you would like to see this support.  I have some 
> specific ideas for things we want to do with this at Threatgrid, but that's 
> only one use case.
>  

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Re: core.logic: Dividing the knowledge base

[JvJ]

I'm not sure how else to go about contacting you about this, but I've found 
some problems in pldb.  The system just doesn't seem to work at all with 
the core.logic 0.8.0 builds.  I'm not too familiar with the guts of pldb or 
core.logic, but I'm wondering if maybe some implementation changes lead to 
this?

On Monday, 4 March 2013 10:51:48 UTC-5, Norman Richards wrote:
>
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 4:03 PM, JvJ >wrote:
>
>> It states that retractions aren't yet implemented.  Is there any way to 
>> delete facts?
>
>
> Retractions are now supported.  DB merging and cross-DB logic queries are 
> still coming.  Feel free to comment on the github issues if you have 
> specific use cases in mind you would like to see this support.  I have some 
> specific ideas for things we want to do with this at Threatgrid, but that's 
> only one use case.
>  

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Re: core.logic: Dividing the knowledge base

[David Nolen]

That's likely though pldb is so small I don't really think it would require
much in the way of changes.


On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 5:15 PM, JvJ  wrote:

> I'm not sure how else to go about contacting you about this, but I've
> found some problems in pldb.  The system just doesn't seem to work at all
> with the core.logic 0.8.0 builds.  I'm not too familiar with the guts of
> pldb or core.logic, but I'm wondering if maybe some implementation changes
> lead to this?
>
>
> On Monday, 4 March 2013 10:51:48 UTC-5, Norman Richards wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 4:03 PM, JvJ  wrote:
>>
>>> It states that retractions aren't yet implemented.  Is there any way to
>>> delete facts?
>>
>>
>> Retractions are now supported.  DB merging and cross-DB logic queries are
>> still coming.  Feel free to comment on the github issues if you have
>> specific use cases in mind you would like to see this support.  I have some
>> specific ideas for things we want to do with this at Threatgrid, but that's
>> only one use case.
>>
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Re: core.logic: Dividing the knowledge base

[Craig Brozefsky]

JvJ  writes:

>I'm not sure how else to go about contacting you about this, but I've
>found some problems in pldb.  The system just doesn't seem to work at
>all with the core.logic 0.8.0 builds.  I'm not too familiar with the
>guts of pldb or core.logic, but I'm wondering if maybe some
>implementation changes lead to this?

You could use the Issues system in github for reporting this to pldb's
maintainers.  Details of what "not works at all" looks like would help
them too.

-- 
Craig Brozefsky 
Premature reification is the root of all evil

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Re: core.logic: Dividing the knowledge base

[Norman Richards]

On Mar 14, 2013, at 4:15 PM, JvJ  wrote:

> I'm not sure how else to go about contacting you about this, but I've found 
> some problems in pldb.  The system just doesn't seem to work at all with the 
> core.logic 0.8.0 builds.  I'm not too familiar with the guts of pldb or 
> core.logic, but I'm wondering if maybe some implementation changes lead to 
> this?

PLDB was written against the current core.logic release.  I have not yet 
started testing with the 0.8 pre releases, but judging from the recent 
core.logic announcement, now is probably a good time to start. :)

You can report issues on the github project page. Also, feel free to grab me on 
the clojure IRC channel at any time.  

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Re: core.logic: Dividing the knowledge base

[David Nolen]

On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 7:18 PM, Norman Richards wrote:

> PLDB was written against the current core.logic release.  I have not yet
> started testing with the 0.8 pre releases, but judging from the recent
> core.logic announcement, now is probably a good time to start. :)


Please do. I'll probably just go ahead release 0.8.0 over the weekend. If
you find issues please file tickets and we'll get things cleaned up for
0.8.1 shortly.

Thanks,
David

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