[atomic-wg] Issue #295: Start using new mailing list/IRC channel around f26 release time

[Joe Brockmeier]

jzb added a new comment to an issue you are following:
``
+1 to jberkus' proposal. 
``

To reply, visit the link below or just reply to this email
https://pagure.io/atomic-wg/issue/295
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[atomic-wg] Issue #295: Start using new mailing list/IRC channel around f26 release time

[Joe Brockmeier]

jzb added a new comment to an issue you are following:
``
+1
``

To reply, visit the link below or just reply to this email
https://pagure.io/atomic-wg/issue/295
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Re: Fedora Atomic Host has gone missing entirely?

[Joe Brockmeier]

Would this be under the Web team's responsibility?

On Tue, Jul 5, 2016 at 1:21 PM, Josh Berkus <jber...@redhat.com> wrote:
> Folks,
>
> I know we've had some issues with availabilty of the Fedora 24 Atomic
> images, but Atomic Host seems to have been removed from Downloads entirely:
>
> https://getfedora.org/en/cloud/download/index.html
>
> Note that the Atomic tag is missing.
>
> WTH?
>
> Issue created:
>
> https://fedorahosted.org/cloud/ticket/164

Adding the websites@ list to see if we can get some assistance.

Best,

jzb
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Re: No Fedora 24 container?

[Joe Brockmeier]

On Thu, Jun 23, 2016 at 11:37 AM, Adam Miller
<maxamill...@fedoraproject.org> wrote:
> Following the moving target idea of a "next" tag, would "next" then
> point to Rawhide when we're in the limbo period of "post GA, pre
> Branched" ?

I think so, yes?

And again - I'm just trying to think through this as a potential
consumer, so folks doing work with the images in this fashion please
chime in. Or if I propose something insanely complicated for rel-eng.

Best,

jzb

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Re: No Fedora 24 container?

[Joe Brockmeier]

On Wed, Jun 22, 2016 at 11:28 AM, Adam Miller
<maxamill...@fedoraproject.org> wrote:
> My main concern is that we would then introduce a concept of "next"
> that isn't well defined within the Release Engineering vocabulary or
> the Fedora Project at large as any sort of milestone deliverable.
> (Where as in debian land "stable", "testing", and "unstable"/"sid" are
> well defined streams of code/content).
>
> What we could do is release Fedora N+1 at Alpha, Beta, and Final times
> and tag is as N-alpha, N-beta, and then finally just N (and latest).
>
> Example:
>
> Fedora 24 is current stable -> docker image:tag fedora:24 and
> fedora:latest point to this.
>
> Fedora 25 Alpha is released -> push docker image:tag fedora:25-alpha to the 
> Hub
>
> Fedora 25 Beta is released -> push docker image:tag fedora:25-beta to
> the Hub (removing fedora:25-alpha tag)
>
> Fedora 25 GA is released -> push docker image:tag fedora:25 (removing
> the fedora:25-beta tag and update fedora:latest to point to fedora:25)
>
> Fedora Rawhide continues rolling along as it does fedora:rawhide (we
> tend to update this roughly once a month right now)
>
> Thoughts?

So this fits with our engineering processes, I guess, but I'm
considering the end consumer.

If I'm building images and just want to test with "the next release of
Fedora" I don't know I want to be fiddling with the tags continually.
Especially if I'm doing some kind of workflow with CI/CD and just
checking "did something break"? This feels like a lot of manual
fiddling required. We'll also wind up with a LOT of tags on Docker Hub
(can we delete those?).

I'm mostly hypothesizing, though - I would be interested in hearing
from people consuming the images.

> Also, as an aside. Whatever we decide should be brought up with Fedora
> RelEng as a meeting ticket to make sure the proposal is workable from
> a release perspective (though I suspect it will be and will volunteer
> to take that on). I'll also volunteer write up a SOP doc for Fedora
> RelEng Documentation so that this information persists and is well
> defined if there's future questions about it.

+1

Best,

jzb

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Re: No Fedora 24 container?

[Joe Brockmeier]

On Wed, Jun 22, 2016 at 8:43 AM, Dusty Mabe <du...@dustymabe.com> wrote:
>
> I could definitely see value in having these images be more
> accessible. We could even make it be a different name than `fedora`
> so that people know they are using something that is pre-release.
>
> `fedora24prerelease` with tags of date timestamps and `latest` follows
> latest prerelease.
>
> I don't know how hard this is to achieve, just describing ideal
> scenarios.

tl;dr - I'm going to suggest we add a 'next' tag for the upcoming
releases if that's feasible.

Anybody know how other projects handle this? What's the most useful
flow for people building on our container images?

* Alpine has tags for 3.1 -> 3.4 (also "latest") and then "edge"
* Debian has 8.5, 8, jessie, latest and then oldstable, sid, stretch,
testing, unstable...
* Ubuntu, afaik, doesn't have any pre-release images. They have 16.04,
15.10, 14.04, etc. (also with their release names, xenial, wily,
trusty, etc.)

My thought is we'd want all current versions still receiving updates,
plus rawhide, plus the upcoming release. My suggestion would be to add
a tag for "next" that is the upcoming Fedora release.

Thoughts, comments, flames?

Best,

jzb
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Fwd: REMINDER: Submission deadline for System Wide Changes of Fedora 25 in three weeks

[Joe Brockmeier]

Do we have any system-wide changes we need to propose for F25?

Also, seems weird to have this deadline looming before we even release
F24... :-)

-- Forwarded message --
From: Jan Kurik <jku...@redhat.com>
Date: Tue, Jun 14, 2016 at 2:31 AM
Subject: REMINDER: Submission deadline for System Wide Changes of Fedora 25
in three weeks
To: devel-annou...@lists.fedoraproject.org, Development discussions related
to Fedora <de...@lists.fedoraproject.org>


Hi everyone!

The submission deadline for System Wide Changes of Fedora 25 [1] is
coming pretty soon - in three weeks on July 5th. Alpha release of
Fedora 25 is planned on August 23rd.

Please, submit your System Wide Changes by this deadline, earlier
better. As the deadline applies for System Wide Changes it is always
good to have most of Self Contained Changes proposed as well. In case
you'll need any help with your Change proposals, feel free to contact
me.

Best Regards,
Jan

[1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/25/Schedule

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Re: DRAFT: Feedback by Tuesday morning, please!

[Joe Brockmeier]

OK, I"ve heard no complaints, comments, or feedback of any kind.

Going to put this up on community blog + link from Project Atomic.

On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 2:44 PM, Joe Brockmeier <j...@redhat.com> wrote:

> Any suggestions, fixes, etc. for this post?
>
> https://public.etherpad-mozilla.org/p/fad-summary-2016-june
>
> Please shoot them my way by EOD tomorrow. If you have any _major_ changes,
> please put them in [[double brackets]] so I can see what's changed.
>
> Also, several folks helped with this write-up, who else should be on the
> byline?
>
> Best,
>
> jzb
>
>
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Re: Strange behavior of rpm command in nightly Atommic F23 image

[Joe Brockmeier]

On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 3:06 PM, Kushal Das  wrote:

>
> rpm command is showing no packages are installed in the latest nightly
> build of F23 Atomic image [1]. It is same for the Vagrant box images
> [2]. I am not being able to find out the exact cause of this. If anyone
> has time to look into this matter, please do so, or let me know I missed
> any discussion on the same.


I think Dusty reported that the packagedb is missing?
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DRAFT: Feedback by Tuesday morning, please!

[Joe Brockmeier]

Any suggestions, fixes, etc. for this post?

https://public.etherpad-mozilla.org/p/fad-summary-2016-june

Please shoot them my way by EOD tomorrow. If you have any _major_ changes,
please put them in [[double brackets]] so I can see what's changed.

Also, several folks helped with this write-up, who else should be on the
byline?

Best,

jzb
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Regrets (was Re: [Fedocal] Reminder meeting : Fedora Cloud Workgroup)

[Joe Brockmeier]

In Portland for meetings/PyCon. Will have to miss this one. I think Josh
and Kushal are also affected.

Best,

jzb

On Mon, May 30, 2016 at 1:00 PM,  wrote:

> Dear all,
>
> You are kindly invited to the meeting:
>Fedora Cloud Workgroup on 2016-06-01 from 17:00:00 to 18:00:00 UTC
>At fedora-meetin...@irc.freenode.net
>
> The meeting will be about:
> Standing meeting for the Fedora Cloud Workgroup
>
>
> Source: https://apps.fedoraproject.org/calendar/meeting/1999/
>
> ___
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PROPOSED Re: [Marketing] Re: [MAGAZINE PROPOSAL] Fwd: [DRAFT] Why we're retiring 32-bit Images

[Joe Brockmeier]

On 04/22/2016 11:58 AM, Paul W. Frields wrote:
> * I will expect Joe B from the Cloud WG to tell us authoritatively
>   through the *marketing* list exactly what should happen next, since
>   he (correctly) raised the issue of ensuring zero confusion over
>   publishing these articles.
> 
> Ideally this should have been settled between Cloud WG and rel-eng
> before an article was proposed.  But failing that, we shouldn't
> schedule any Magazine post about changes in deliverables without
> clearly knowing it's decided.  (To be fair, that seemed to be the case
> for at least a week, until dgilmore raised an objection.)  Better
> communication will fix similar problems in the future.

Correct. This *was* decided, and then a question was raised. I don't
want to second-guess the second-guessing, because it was
well-intentioned and we're all communicating in like 15 different venues
and ... ugh. Communication is hard, kids.

I agree with Dusty's post earlier, I think we should stick with the
message that we are doing away with 32-bit cloud images irrespective of
other 32-bit images/etc. We don't at the moment have the resources, or
frankly interest, in doing much with 32-bit x86 cloud images.

I'm CC'ing Dennis directly in case cloud@ and marketing@ are not on his
"read immediately" list. :-)

WG folks: Please respond with a +1 or -1. Other votes welcome too.

Alternate proposals welcomed, but we should move quickly. Happy Friday.


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Re: [Marketing] Re: [MAGAZINE PROPOSAL] Fwd: [DRAFT] Why we're retiring 32-bit Images

[Joe Brockmeier]

On 04/22/2016 09:44 AM, Paul W. Frields wrote:
> The article apparently was left in Scheduled status -- I moved it back
> to Pending Review status, and Patrick Uiterwijk kindly stripped it
> from the Fedora Planet so it wouldn't confuse anyone.  It was out
> there for a few hours, though, FYI.

I got at least one ping on Twitter asking if we meant F24 and not F23,
so it was read by a few folks. (On the positive side, we know people are
reading!)

I'm on PTO Monday & Tuesday, but I hope we can finish this discussion
about 32-bit and publish *after* the cloud wg meeting on Wednesday.

Best,

jzb
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Re: [Marketing] Re: [MAGAZINE PROPOSAL] Fwd: [DRAFT] Why we're retiring 32-bit Images (was Re: Retiring 32-bit images)

[Joe Brockmeier]

Hi all,

Somehow despite me sending this last night - this was published. How can
we prevent communication breakdowns like this in the future?

This was sent prior to or during the magazine meeting, if I'm not mistaken.

If there's *any* uncertainty around something like this, it should not
be published.

Best,

jzb

On 04/21/2016 05:10 PM, Joe Brockmeier wrote:
> On 04/21/2016 05:04 PM, Paul W. Frields wrote:
>> I can't make tonight's Magazine meeting, but I'm +1 to get this out
>> ASAP.  I've moved this article to Pending Review, but I already
>> reviewed it and it looks fine.  I added a couple additional links for
>> SEO power.
>>
>> Anything Justin OK's for schedule for this is fine by me, assume
>> +1. :-) And I'll be happy to help with social media, just please leave
>> me an email or IRC message to do so and I'll catch it in the morning.
> 
> I'd like to put this up too, but I don't think we've settled the
> question on 32-bit that Dennis raised. Will check again.
> 


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Re: [Marketing] Re: [MAGAZINE PROPOSAL] Fwd: [DRAFT] Why we're retiring 32-bit Images (was Re: Retiring 32-bit images)

[Joe Brockmeier]

On 04/21/2016 05:04 PM, Paul W. Frields wrote:
> I can't make tonight's Magazine meeting, but I'm +1 to get this out
> ASAP.  I've moved this article to Pending Review, but I already
> reviewed it and it looks fine.  I added a couple additional links for
> SEO power.
> 
> Anything Justin OK's for schedule for this is fine by me, assume
> +1. :-) And I'll be happy to help with social media, just please leave
> me an email or IRC message to do so and I'll catch it in the morning.

I'd like to put this up too, but I don't think we've settled the
question on 32-bit that Dennis raised. Will check again.

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Regrets or at least partial attention

[Joe Brockmeier]

Hey all,

In all-day meetings today and may be able to peek in on IRC but won't be
able to pay 100% attention to the meeting today. Sorry for short notice.

Best,

jzb
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Re: [Marketing] Re: [MAGAZINE PROPOSAL] Fwd: [DRAFT] Why we're retiring 32-bit Images (was Re: Retiring 32-bit images)

[Joe Brockmeier]

On 04/15/2016 05:28 PM, Joe Brockmeier wrote:
> On 04/15/2016 10:38 AM, Dennis Gilmore wrote:
>> I would like us to demote them to secondary.
> 
> Why? We've already decided to drop. I'm not opposed, just curious why.
> IIRC we were hitting a major problem with kernel compat as well?

Pinging on this - I thought we'd reached a decision and wanted to
publicize that sooner than later.

If there's a reason to prefer move to secondary, let's discuss.

Best,

jzb
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Re: [Marketing] Re: [MAGAZINE PROPOSAL] Fwd: [DRAFT] Why we're retiring 32-bit Images (was Re: Retiring 32-bit images)

[Joe Brockmeier]

On 04/15/2016 10:38 AM, Dennis Gilmore wrote:
> I would like us to demote them to secondary.

Why? We've already decided to drop. I'm not opposed, just curious why.
IIRC we were hitting a major problem with kernel compat as well?

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Re: Chairing Cloud Meetings?

[Joe Brockmeier]

On 04/13/2016 05:00 PM, Clint Savage wrote:
> This might be frowned upon, but I like the idea of a monthly chair. The
> value is that they are prepared for a few weeks at a time. Changing
> every week seems like it might be taxing on the new person, they might
> forget, too.
> 
> Just a thought.

I'm good however folks want to slice it. The only problem I'd have with
monthly is I have literally zero months with no travel on a Wednesday.

Best,

jzb
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Chairing Cloud Meetings?

[Joe Brockmeier]

Hey all,

While we're discussing meeting times, I'd also like to discuss rotating
chair duties so that 1) nobody is saddled with it all the time, and 2)
the Chair 'o the Week (TM) shows up prepared to run the meeting.

That means:

- Has the action items from the last meeting at hand to run through those
- Has the Trac report at hand to go through
- Has called for any new items that are urgent: So, for example if we
have something really pressing it can go before just churning through
tickets and #actions
- Will send the meeting minutes to the mailing list after the meeting

I added a section to the wiki:

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Cloud#Meetings

With the next seven meeting dates. Can we have folks step up and claim
chair? (Should be a member of the working group, ideally, or at least
regular participant.)

Thoughts, comments, flames? Any volunteers?

Best,

jzb
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Re: New meeting time

[Joe Brockmeier]

On 03/24/2016 05:25 PM, Dusty Mabe wrote:
> It seems as if people are overbooked at the current meeting time (17:00 UTC). 
> Shall we 
> try to find an alternative? 

I'm good with finding a new time, though typically all times wind up
being bad because we're all very busy humans.

But if we'd like to find a new time maybe send out a whenisgood or
similar to let people choose?

Best,

jzb
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Meeting Minutes for 13 April 2016

[Joe Brockmeier]

Minutes are here:

https://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting-1/2016-04-13/fedora_cloud_working_group.2016-04-13-17.03.html

And text below:

=
#fedora-meeting-1: Fedora Cloud Working Group
=


Meeting started by jzb at 17:03:44 UTC. The full logs are available at
https://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting-1/2016-04-13/fedora_cloud_working_group.2016-04-13-17.03.log.html
.



Meeting summary
---
* Origin on Fedora  (jzb, 17:08:31)
  * LINK: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FAD_Cloud_WG_2016   (tflink,
17:09:23)
  * ACTION: jzb create Wiki page for OpenShift work  (jzb, 17:21:41)

* last week's actions  (jzb, 17:28:58)
  * ACTION: jberkus to update Fedora-Dockerfiles examples for Kubernetes
(ticket #125)  (jzb, 17:30:04)
  * ACTION: imcleod wrangle karma for Factory updates (Ticket 131)
(jzb, 17:30:38)
  * ACTION: imcleod take ticket 136 on vagrant file fixups  (jzb,
17:30:47)
  * ACTION: kushal to drop a mail to the list after creating a ticket
for new base image release for f23  (jzb, 17:31:08)

* Fedora Activity Day  (jzb, 17:40:50)
  * ACTION: kushal add flight info to FAD page  (jzb, 17:43:06)
  * LINK: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/How_to_organize_a_FAD   (nb,
17:46:00)

* open floor  (jzb, 17:46:41)
  * LINK: https://rdoproject.org/ "  (puiterwijk, 17:50:17)

Meeting ended at 17:54:38 UTC.




Action Items

* jzb create Wiki page for OpenShift work
* jberkus to update Fedora-Dockerfiles examples for Kubernetes (ticket
  #125)
* imcleod wrangle karma for Factory updates (Ticket 131)
* imcleod take ticket 136 on vagrant file fixups
* kushal to drop a mail to the list after creating a ticket for new base
  image release for f23
* kushal add flight info to FAD page




Action Items, by person
---
* jberkus
  * jberkus to update Fedora-Dockerfiles examples for Kubernetes (ticket
#125)
* jzb
  * jzb create Wiki page for OpenShift work
* **UNASSIGNED**
  * imcleod wrangle karma for Factory updates (Ticket 131)
  * imcleod take ticket 136 on vagrant file fixups
  * kushal to drop a mail to the list after creating a ticket for new
base image release for f23
  * kushal add flight info to FAD page




People Present (lines said)
---
* jzb (114)
* scollier (59)
* jberkus (39)
* puiterwijk (37)
* dustymabe (25)
* zodbot (20)
* maxamillion (20)
* jbrooks (16)
* goern][ (10)
* nzwulfin (7)
* rtnpro (6)
* nirik (5)
* tflink (4)
* nb (4)
* bcl (2)
* pryanka (1)
* trishnag (1)
* roshi (1)




Generated by `MeetBot`_ 0.1.4

.. _`MeetBot`: http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot
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Re: [Marketing] Re: [MAGAZINE PROPOSAL] Fwd: [DRAFT] Why we're retiring 32-bit Images (was Re: Retiring 32-bit images)

[Joe Brockmeier]

On 04/07/2016 06:59 PM, Joe Brockmeier wrote:
> On 04/07/2016 06:47 PM, Ryan Lerch wrote:
>> Will it just be a featured image? Or are there other graphics required?
>>
> Just the featured image. Thanks!

OK, looks like we have the featured image here:

https://pagure.io/fedoramagazine-images/issue/12

Is this ready to go? Is there a specific date to target or run it now,
or...?

Best,

jzb

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[DRAFT] Why we're retiring 32-bit Images (was Re: Retiring 32-bit images)

[Joe Brockmeier]

On 03/31/2016 02:17 PM, Kushal Das wrote:
> 
>> > Did we ever put a post up on fedmag about this? Can we do one now?
> No iirc. We may want to do one.

Hed: Retiring 32-bit Cloud Images

Body: The Fedora Cloud Working Group has decided to retire the 32-bit
Cloud images. As of the __ release, we will no longer produce the 32-bit
images. We will, of course, continue to make 64-bit cloud images available.

Why are we doing this? We've been producing 32-bit images for years, and
it's a solved problem, right? Surely it's as easy as "just keep doing
it," right?

Not so much. There are several reasons we're retiring them. First and
foremost, our data suggests that 32-bit images are not that popular.
That doesn't mean *no one* uses 32-bit images, but the user community
for 32-bit only seems to be passingly small.

The second reason is that 32-bit packages and images require their own
testing. If it was as simple as a little bit of CPU time and disk space
to produce images, we'd just keep doing it until the number of users hit
zero. But it has a human cost in terms of time and opportunity lost
doing one thing when we could do another. So we've chosen to focus on
64-bit images, working on making Atomic Host more awesome, and other work.

If you have questions, feel free to ask in #fedora-cloud on Freenode, or
ask on cloud@lists.fedoraproject.org.

 # # #

Thoughts?

Best,

jzb

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Re: New meeting time

[Joe Brockmeier]

On 03/28/2016 02:19 PM, Kushal Das wrote:
> This is still the best time for me.

It's OK for me, but not optimal. Kushal, are you sure the time is the
best? It seems to be kinda late for you.

Best,

jzb
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[DISCUSS] Talking points for alpha release + Fedora 24 cycle

[Joe Brockmeier]

Hey all,

We're tracking Fedora 24 cycle features here:

https://fedorahosted.org/cloud/ticket/143

Right now the list of "talking points" I'm curating looks like this:

* Fedora Atomic as a 1st class platform for OpenShift Origin

* Atomic Developer Mode

* Layered Image Build System

* Using storage with Fedora Atomic

* (open question) rkt in Fedora Atomic

A) anything I'm missing?
B) Anything that's not going to be discussable by alpha?

Also - we need a broader story. I think our main story for this release
is "continued iteration around container technologies,"

We can say it nicer than that, but that's the gist so far.

Thoughts, comments, flames?
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Regrets today's meeting

[Joe Brockmeier]

Hey all,

I'm going to have to send regrets this week - I have two in-person
meetings that are going to mean I can't make it to the IRC meeting.

Will send a separate email about my big item of the week.

Best,

jzb
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Re: Deletion of AMIs in the EC2

[Joe Brockmeier]

On 02/03/2016 09:24 AM, Hannes Schmidt wrote:
> 
> So EOL implies that no one should ever be able to launch a VM for it?
> Makes no sense to me.

It's no longer receiving updates, so that does actually make sense.

Can you describe the use case for an EOL release that might persuade us
that we should continue paying for the storage required to host EOL AMIs
and risking that users might deploy them without realizing they are no
longer receiving security updates?

Best,

jzb
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Regrets for today's meeting

[Joe Brockmeier]

Apologies - I am going to be in a metal tube all day and won't be able
to make the meeting.
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Re: Compose check emails: please allow mails from rawhide@fp.o

[Joe Brockmeier]

On 01/22/2016 04:50 PM, Matthew Miller wrote:
> Yeah, they were in the moderation queue along with a ton of spam.
> However, with mailman3, I don't see a way to accept and add to an
> accept filter and then, I don't see a way to add an accept filter
> _at all_. The only option might be to subscribe the sending account to
> the list. :-/

Ah. I think I may have found the hidden admin interface and I am an
admin. I subscribed this address and set delivery to "no" - that should
do, yes?
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Re: Updating getfedora.org with atlas.hashicorp information

[Joe Brockmeier]

On 01/14/2016 03:51 PM, Lalatendu Mohanty wrote:
>>
> 
> Should I open a track ticket for this?

This would be for the Web team, I think?


Best,

jzb
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Regrets for today's meeting

[Joe Brockmeier]

Hey all - have to send regrets for today's meeting. In in-person
meetings today.

Best,

jzb
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Fwd: Changes in F24 schedule - two weeks slip

[Joe Brockmeier]

Hi folks,

For those who may have missed this via devel-announce, the release is
slipping by two weeks and therefore the F24 Changes submission deadline
has slipped to the 26th:

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/24/Schedule#Key_Milestones

(Completion deadline is now 1 March for "testable" and 12 April for 100%
complete.)

Best,

jzb


 Forwarded Message 
Subject: Changes in F24 schedule - two weeks slip
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2016 03:23:55 +0100
From: Jan Kurik <jku...@redhat.com>
Reply-To: de...@lists.fedoraproject.org
To: devel-annou...@lists.fedoraproject.org, Development discussions
related to Fedora <de...@lists.fedoraproject.org>

Hi Fedora people,

let me inform you about changes in Fedora 24 schedule.

There is a will to accommodate GCC6 compiler in F24 and use it to
compile all the binaries delivered in this release [1]. To make this
happen we need to do mass rebuild which was not originally scheduled
for this release. On FESCo meeting the last Friday has been decided to
go on with GCC6 and do the mass rebuild. This causes slip of F24
schedule for 2 weeks. Please check the updated schedule at
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/24/Schedule#Key_Milestones .
Dates for the most important milestones follows:

2016-03-15 Alpha Release
2016-04-26 Beta Release
2016-05-31 Fedora 24 Final Release (GA)

Regards,
Jan

[1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/GCC6
[2] https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1519
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F24 Change? Re: Fedora 23 Cloud Atomic Developer Mode Preview

[Joe Brockmeier]

Hi Jonathan,

On 01/11/2016 12:01 PM, Jonathan Lebon wrote:
> Just uploaded a newer image (available at [1]) which
> addresses some of the feedback received:
> - The generated passwords should now be easier to type,
>   with no easily misidentified letters.
> - Helper message to explicitly say how to log into
>   Cockpit.
> - New tmux terminals and easy shortcuts for switching
>   between them.

Are you considering putting this in as a change for Fedora 24? The
deadline is tomorrow. You can find a lot of change examples here:

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Category:SelfContainedChange

Best,

jzb
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Re: Putting Networkd on cloud Atomic and base image for F24

[Joe Brockmeier]

On 12/18/2015 09:05 PM, Peter Robinson wrote:
> What other distros are doing, whether Ubuntu above, or CoreOS, or any
> of them is completely irrelevant for a discussion about Fedora.

Well, no it's not, actually.

If we're trying to appeal to folks who are already using other
distributions or tools, it does actually matter. See also discussions
about cloud-init we've had in the past.

It's not a case of "me-too-ism" (though, frankly, it'd be nice to see
more "me too" and less NIH in the FOSS world as a whole), it's a matter of:

1) offering tools that users expect
2) pointing to successful implementations

When somebody says X or Y distro is using something successfully, that
is a good indicator that it may be ready for prime time.

And yes, we're aware of the need for a testing plan. Thank you for so
diplomatically mentioning it.

Best,

jzb
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Re: Putting Networkd on cloud Atomic and base image for F24

[Joe Brockmeier]

On 12/14/2015 08:00 PM, Itamar wrote:
> +1 for systemd-networkd, RH should add it into rhel.

That's not really our call. :-)

Best,

jzb
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Re: Putting Networkd on cloud Atomic and base image for F24

[Joe Brockmeier]

On 12/14/2015 03:23 PM, Kushal Das wrote:
> The third choice is already in the images along with systemd. We are
> talking about enabling it as default networking stack. Ubuntu already
> has a beta implementation in place with network instead of networking
> scripts.
> 
> If we have to stay ahead in innovation, we have to do things for the
> "First" of our four foundation. We were ahead in adopting systemd, we
> should do the same for Networkd.

Anybody willing to put together (or already have) a list of PMI[1] info
about the options so we can make a decision?

When do we need to decide by? Can we switch like, now, and then back it
out if we find that it breaks all the things?

[1] Plus, Minus, Interesting

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Re: Cloud Atomic ISO, missing items for baremetal usage

[Joe Brockmeier]

On 12/13/2015 07:11 PM, Chris Murphy wrote:
> OK at this moment I'm thinking hdparm and smartmontools just need to
> go on the ISO, along with iotop.

What's the usage scenario you're picturing here? This feels to me like a
"pet" usage scenario where you're caring a whole lot about a single
server install.
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Re: Fedora Atomic edition "pivot" next steps

[Joe Brockmeier]

On 12/11/2015 02:01 PM, Colin Walters wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 9, 2015, at 12:31 PM, Matthew Miller wrote:
>> At Flock and on this list and elsewhere, we've talked about making
>> Fedora Atomic our main edition-level deliverable (while still producing
>> Cloud Base as something akin to a Spin).
>>
>> As I understand it, this is officially agreed, but not everyone is
>> really bought in. I'd like to advocate for and advance this further,
>> especially since Two Week Atomic is off the ground and running (see
>> https://getfedora.org/en/cloud/download/atomic.html — thanks
>> everyone!). Are we ready for the next steps, here?

I think we're Very Close(TM). It'd be good to have one or two more Two
Week Atomic releases under our belts and an "official" process for doing
the go/no-gos on those, and ensure we have enough hands to keep updates
coming through and fixes.

For example, this week folks stepped up to give Karma to the Docker
update and keep it flowing through the system - which is awesome. And I
know Jason and some other folks were looking at the loopback regression
- though I'm not sure that's fixed yet.

When we're hitting those things consistently for a few releases in a
row, then I think that it's pivot time.

> There's been a lot of work indeed so far, and more to come with
> things like the layered builder - but do we have an idea what those
> next steps would be for Cloud beyond the things that are already
> queued as Features?  Are there things missing from the Features
> list?

I think the big thing on my list will be OpenShift Origin, which IIRC is
under review as a package?

We won't be "done" at that point, but I think that gives us all the
major features we need to really shine as the focus.

Anything we're missing on other folks' list?

Best,

jzb
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Docker 1.9.1-4 needs testing

[Joe Brockmeier]

Hey all,

We need a few more eyeballs on this:

https://bodhi.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2015-5917f166c6

Version currently in stable has a few annoying bugs, like "docker
search" not working with default settings.

If you have time today to test + give karma (if you find it worthy)
please do!

Thanks,

jzb
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Re: Docker 1.9.1-4 needs testing

[Joe Brockmeier]

On 12/10/2015 09:55 AM, Haïkel wrote:
> I tested it this morning and gave it good karma so it should be pushed.

Thanks!

If we can team up on these updates it will help a lot.

Best,

jzb
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Fedora Cloud Working Group Meeting Minutes 2 December 2015

[Joe Brockmeier]

I don't think I sent these last week, apologies if this is a duplicate:

=
#fedora-meeting-1: Fedora Cloud Working Group
=


Meeting started by jzb at 17:03:27 UTC. The full logs are available at
http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting-1/2015-12-02/fedora_cloud_working_group.2015-12-02-17.03.log.html
.



Meeting summary
---
* Cloud FAD  (jzb, 17:06:22)
  * LINK: https://fedorahosted.org/cloud/ticket/115   (jzb, 17:06:25)

* Producing 2 week atomic images  (jzb, 17:13:27)
  * LINK: https://getfedora.org/en/cloud/download/atomic.html
(maxamillion, 17:14:08)
  * ACTION: jzb write up release announcement for magazine / project
atomic site.  (jzb, 17:14:21)

* Fedora Cloud QA  (jzb, 17:34:59)

* make docker archived image get imported with lowercase tag  (jzb,
  17:43:51)
  * LINK: https://fedorahosted.org/cloud/ticket/131   (jzb, 17:43:57)
  * LINK: https://fedorahosted.org/cloud/ticket/131   (dustymabe,
17:44:57)
  * ACTION: imcleod going to work on a fix for Ticket 131  (jzb,
17:47:31)

* Fedora-Dockerfiles examples for Kubernetes  (jzb, 17:49:16)
  * LINK: https://fedorahosted.org/cloud/ticket/125   (jzb, 17:49:27)

* open floor  (jzb, 18:01:36)

Meeting ended at 18:03:27 UTC.




Action Items

* jzb write up release announcement for magazine / project atomic site.
* imcleod going to work on a fix for Ticket 131




Action Items, by person
---
* imcleod
  * imcleod going to work on a fix for Ticket 131
* jzb
  * jzb write up release announcement for magazine / project atomic
site.
* **UNASSIGNED**
  * (none)




People Present (lines said)
---
* jzb (108)
* dustymabe (40)
* maxamillion (38)
* zodbot (15)
* scollier (11)
* linuxmodder (7)
* trishnag (6)
* number80 (6)
* pryanka (5)
* misc (4)
* imcleod (3)
* siXy (1)
* jbrooks (0)




Generated by `MeetBot`_ 0.1.4

.. _`MeetBot`: http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot
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Re: openQA nightly testing of Cloud Atomic installer image

[Joe Brockmeier]

On 12/09/2015 03:48 PM, Chris Murphy wrote:
> Does anyone else think it'd be useful to
> have the nightly atomic installer ISO listed at
> https://apps.fedoraproject.org/releng-dash/ ? Or maybe even an Atomic
> specific section on the dashboard?

Yes! I totally think it would.

Best,

jzb
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OFFLINE November 6-15

[Joe Brockmeier]

Hey all,

Just a quick note to say I will be hard offline from 6 November to 15
November. Not sure how decent the Internet connectivity will be where
I'm at, but I don't really plan on looking at email very often in any
event.

Best,

jzb
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Re: Alternatives to cloud-init (was Re: [DISCUSS] Cloud and Server Workgroup relationship)

[Joe Brockmeier]

On 11/03/2015 11:24 AM, Adam Miller wrote:
> I've been a fan of testcloud for this use case because I'm of the
> opinion that vagrant is overkill when all I want to do is boot a cloud
> image and ssh in.

I've lost track, have we packaged that for F23? I would love to
recommend it.

Best,

jzb
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Re: RC* Atomic images are broken

[Joe Brockmeier]

On 10/30/2015 05:21 PM, Colin Walters wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 28, 2015, at 08:06 PM, Matthew Miller wrote:
>> On Wed, Oct 28, 2015 at 06:45:09PM -0400, Dusty Mabe wrote:
>>> Right now the last booting atomic image is TC11. If we don't do
>>> another compose then we won't have an atomic image for release.
>>
>> Can we release the two-week-atomic autocloud build?
> 
> My understanding in the state of
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1276775#c4
> is that F23 Atomic Host will release with the rest of F23,
> but I don't think it makes sense to do so with this bug.
> 
> Can we drop it out of the release set of images and then
> revisit doing it in two weeks?

Question: Will this affect rpm-ostree upgrades?

Will workarounds be too onerous for 2 weeks?

I'm OK with pushing Atomic release out two weeks if we are relatively
confident in a release and having this fixed by then. (That would be 17
November, right?)

Best,

jzb


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Alternatives to cloud-init (was Re: [DISCUSS] Cloud and Server Workgroup relationship)

[Joe Brockmeier]

On 10/28/2015 08:21 PM, Josh Boyer wrote:
> The *could* be the same thing,
> except cloud-init is terrible and I hate it and if that was the single
> offering we had for some kind of C WG I would cry.  I hate it
> because it is ridiculous to use in a non-cloud environment, and Server
> very much has that as part of it's reach.

Forking this thread briefly because I think this deserves its own
discussion.

Is your objection primarily to the concept of cloud-init or the
implementation? If it's the concept, not much we can help with there. If
it's the implementation...

We've talked about replacing cloud-init a few times in the past, but
there are two objections:

- cloud-init is "standard" and we have an uphill marketing battle to get
our image adopted with something else.
- lack of a great alternative.

Mike has talked about a "rich boot process" previously, and I wonder if
we're ready to start working on that?

Also, one of the CentOS GSoC projects was "Flamingo" "a lightweight
contextualization tool that aims to handle initialization of cloud
instances." [1] Maybe this is something we could look at for F24? CC'ing
Tamer Tas, the student who worked on that. (It's targeted at being a
cloud-init replacement for Atomic, so...)

[1] https://github.com/tmrts/flamingo
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Re: Alternatives to cloud-init (was Re: [DISCUSS] Cloud and Server Workgroup relationship)

[Joe Brockmeier]

On 10/29/2015 09:33 AM, Michael McGrath wrote:
> If you hate cloud-init, then you'll love rich boot.  Which is
> essentially a handoff at boot time from cloud-init to Ansible for
> further configuration.

What's the state of this at the moment?
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Re: Alternatives to cloud-init (was Re: [DISCUSS] Cloud and Server Workgroup relationship)

[Joe Brockmeier]

On 10/29/2015 09:50 AM, Josh Boyer wrote:
> Did they tell anyone they were doing that?  I'm curious if we have two
> groups that could be working together here that are now duplicating
> effort simply because of lack of communication.

C'mon Josh. That *never* happens.

Best,

jzb
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Re: [DISCUSS] Cloud and Server Workgroup relationship

[Joe Brockmeier]

On 10/28/2015 03:03 PM, Josh Boyer wrote:
> Could you provide a bit more context without necessarily offering your
> suggestions?  It's somewhat hard to discuss this without it going
> everywhere without some kind of background into the overlaps or
> disparities that you see.

I can try to give some context, and yes we probably need some scope. To
be clear, this isn't so much disparities/overlaps that *I* see - I just
took the AI to start the discussion.

Cloud ticket 127 from roshi opened the discussion about the server WG
wanting "to do some coordination with workstation and cloud" and asked
for brainstorming. And then discussion followed which I won't try to
summarize because I may not do it justice, so please see [1].

Some useful questions, though:

- Does the current set of editions make sense, as produced by the Cloud
and Server WG?

- Is the distinction between Cloud and Server wrong?

There's a lot of history here - the Cloud group really started as a
place to look at packaging OpenStack, OpenShift, Eucalyptus, CloudStack
for Fedora. Then it evolved into cloud images and then a focus on Atomic.

- Should we have a "server" image in the cloud? Is the current suite of
editions confusing?

And most importantly - what started the initial initial conversation,
how should the Cloud & Server folks work together next release?

[1] https://fedorahosted.org/cloud/ticket/127
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Re: [atomic-devel] Introducing sen: terminal user interface for docker engine

[Joe Brockmeier]

On Tuesday, October 27, 2015 10:13:17 AM Stef Walter wrote:
> On 27.10.2015 09:59, Tomas Tomecek wrote:
> > Quoting Joe Brockmeier (2015-10-27 01:55:17)
> > 
> >> Any chance this is going to be a Cloud feature for Fedora 24?
> >> (Probably jst a bit late to slip into F23 now.)
> >> 
> >> Best,
> >> 
> >> jzb
> > 
> > Way too late for f23 since I just made it work recently and I'm sure
> > it's full of bugs (and missing features).
> > 
> > I'm planning to package this to Fedora, no question. Can submit it
> > as a f24 feature.

Nice. I'm CC'ing the cloud working group here as well. 

> > One could think that sen is directly competing with cockpit. That's
> > true. The difference is target audience -- sen is meant for folks
> > who are not fans of webuis and prefer terminal instead. Not sure if
> > this should be mentioned in the feature proposal.

Nope, totally different audience. 
 
> Yup. Doesn't compete with Cockpit at all. In fact you could use it
> within Cockpit's terminal, if you were feeling really funky ...

I like this. Container-ception? 

Best, 

jzb
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Re: Becoming comaintainer for Fedora-Dockerfiles

[Joe Brockmeier]

On 10/08/2015 07:55 AM, Matthew Miller wrote:
> Well, let's say we want to ship a Fedora Server role as an Atomic App.
> Or, say, Kolab. Where would the nulecule files for that live?

So - we're currently keeping working examples here:

https://github.com/projectatomic/nulecule/tree/master/examples

I would love to see a central repo for any Nulecule / Atomic Apps.

For users, if they're pulling a pre-made app it should live on Docker
Hub. So they'd just need "sudo atomic run fedora/kolab" or similar to
grab it.

(I suppose Fedora could have its own registry for containers, but not
sure we want to / are ready to go there.)

Best,

jzb
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Canceling today's cloud Working Group meeting

[Joe Brockmeier]

Hey all,

A number of folks are indisposed today, so unless there's a strong
objection, let's cancel today's (30 September 2015) meeting.

If there's any tickets or issues that require immediate attention, let's
discuss on list.

Best,

jzb
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Re: Beta Announcement Highlights?

[Joe Brockmeier]

On 09/17/2015 02:26 PM, Matthew Miller wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 16, 2015 at 07:32:09PM -0400, Joe Brockmeier wrote:
>> We're sneaking up on the beta release, and the readiness meeting is
>> tomorrow.
>> I need some highlights for the beta release from folks who are working
>> on cloud, server, and workstation. Please send to me via email (e.g.,
>> here) or add to the wiki here:
>> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/F23_Beta_release_announcement
> 
> Hey everyone. We're getting down to the crunch on this and Joe can't do
> it alone. I'm going to set aside a block of time (say, 17:00-19:00 UTC)
> tomorrow to hack on this. Join me in #fedora-mktg if you're able to
> help -- or just put things in the wiki. It doesn't even really need to
> be polished... need content first.
> 
> Desktop, Server, Cloud WG people -- we could really use your help with
> talking points. What are the coolest, best-selling features from your
> point of view? (For reference, the Alpha annoucement is
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/F23_Alpha_release_announcement.) it's
> fine, but not super-exciting. Can we do better?

Howdy cloudians - anything to add for the beta? Do we have anything to
show off?

Best,

jzb

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Re: Agenda item proposal -- Explore the possibilities of SCAP for the benefits of Fedora Cloud WG (whole Fedora)

[Joe Brockmeier]

On 09/18/2015 08:29 AM, Jan Lieskovsky wrote:
> 
> Hello folks,
> 
>   (not sure this is the expected way how to propose a new meeting agenda item
> for some of the future WG meetings. If not, kindly point me to the right way.
> Thanks).

This is a great start. Usually we ask to put ticket in track and tag it
with the keyword "meeting."

Also, uh, show up at the meeting and be ready to discuss. :-) If you
have any trouble with Trac let us know & someone on the Cloud Working
Group can throw this into Trac to, uh, track it.

>   Would like to propose item -- explore the possibilities of SCAP for the
>   benefits of Fedora Cloud WG
> 
>   Purpose of the meeting:
>   * we would like to introduce the SCAP Security Guide project / OpenSCAP 
> ecosystem
> to the WG (the set of packages we are currently working at),
>   * issues (related with functionality provided by the WG) we see
> right now when developing SCAP content,
>   * proposal for possible cooperation -- in order to be able to enhance
> the list of rules applicable for the Cloud product, we would like to:
> * hear Fedora Cloud WG expectations on the content,
> * share our expectations on the content && get feedback on them,
> * maybe set up a way for more close cooperation
> 
>   Our expectation is to present short slides (introduce SCAP to the WG,
>   what's already done, what we would like to implemented yet, would like
>   to hear your feedback on those, and areas where we need input from the
>   WG in order to progress better / more quickly [mainly related with which
>   tasks to prioritize etc.]).
> 
> Thank you && Regards, Jan.
> --
> Jan iankko Lieskovsky / Red Hat Security Technologies Team
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Beta Announcement Highlights?

[Joe Brockmeier]

Hey all,

We're sneaking up on the beta release, and the readiness meeting is
tomorrow.

I need some highlights for the beta release from folks who are working
on cloud, server, and workstation. Please send to me via email (e.g.,
here) or add to the wiki here:

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/F23_Beta_release_announcement

Thanks,

jzb
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Re: Mo's proposed fedora atomic logo

[Joe Brockmeier]

On 09/15/2015 02:23 PM, Matthew Miller wrote:
> https://mattdm.fedorapeople.org/misc/newfedoratomiclogomockup.png
> 
> With Fedora Atomic Host as primary, the current Fedora Cloud logo would
> be still used for the Cloud Base image, but would probably be
> de-colored (see the non-Edition logos on https://arm.fedoraproject.org/
> for an example).
> 
> Feedback? I think it looks great.
> 
Love it. +1

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Re: Two-Week Atomic actual deliverables

[Joe Brockmeier]

On 09/11/2015 11:59 AM, Matthew Miller wrote:
> Since VirtualBox is the format the vast majority of Vagrant users will
> want, that's... kind of a big deal. *sigh* Options I can see here are:
> 
> A) Scramble to find some way to do the VirtualBox testing.
> 
> B) Don't publish the VirtualBox images.
> 
> C) Publish the VirtualBox images, but put them in a Penalty Box with
>extra warnings
> 
> Any other ideas? Preferences? B seems the most responsible, yet also
> the most sad. A would be highly unusual for our infrastructure. C could
> expose us to looking bad if support breaks and no one notices.

Is there a way we can test it out-of-band? I'm willing to do some manual
testing as needed at least until we can come up with a longer term fix.

A and/or C seem like the most useful options. B would be, as you say, sad.

Best,

jzb
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Re: Two-Week Atomic actual deliverables

[Joe Brockmeier]

On 09/11/2015 12:59 PM, Adam Miller wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 10:59 AM, Matthew Miller
> <mat...@fedoraproject.org> wrote:
>> On Thu, Sep 10, 2015 at 01:02:10PM -0400, Matthew Miller wrote:
>>> * Vagrant boxes:
>>>   - same tunir-based test suite in VM environemnt
>>
>> Followup! Kushal points out that we are testing the KVM vagrant images
>> in this way, but not testing VirtualBox. (Because we don't have
>> VirtualBox in Fedora or EPEL, because out-of-tree kernel modules.).
>> Like the qcow2->ec2 thing, these are the same bits as something that
>> _is_ autotested, but run in a different environment. Unlike qcow2->ec2,
>> we aren't even doing a boot test.
>>
>>
>> Things which could go wrong which I see are:
>>
>> * some VirtualBox-specific thing with booting an updated kernel or
>>   grub2 (for example, updated kernel missing some drivers or something
>>   that VirtualBox needs)
>>
>> * some corruption or something in the image conversion
>>
>> These seem mostly unlikely, but far from impossible.
>>
>>
>> Since VirtualBox is the format the vast majority of Vagrant users will
>> want, that's... kind of a big deal. *sigh* Options I can see here are:
>>
>> A) Scramble to find some way to do the VirtualBox testing.
>>
>> B) Don't publish the VirtualBox images.
>>
>> C) Publish the VirtualBox images, but put them in a Penalty Box with
>>extra warnings
>>
>> Any other ideas? Preferences? B seems the most responsible, yet also
>> the most sad. A would be highly unusual for our infrastructure. C could
>> expose us to looking bad if support breaks and no one notices.
> 
> I'm pretty neutral on B or C. I don't really care and also don't think it
> should even remotely be a concern of ours. Not only do we not have
> testing for it but we don't even have the building blocks in place to
> work towards testing it. VirtualBox is bad and those who use it should
> feel bad.[0]

Damn, man. That's harsh and probably not a great way to bring people
into the fold.

("should feel bad" I mean. I don't disagree on the merits of VB, it's
not good.)

> This is probably not a popular opinion and I'm fine with that, but we
> would have to install something that we very publicly speak out
> against in order to test this. I'm not yet ready to throw out Fedora's
> values for the sake of some OS X user's convenience but that's just
> me.

Which of the values would we be compromising here to test something with
GPL'ed software? I realize that out of band modules aren't awesome, but
I wasn't aware this was a project-level value [1].

The "some OS X user" that we're trying to reach with VirtualBox-friendly
images today is a potential Fedora desktop user tomorrow. I would
totally agree we shouldn't compromise by using proprietary software, but
using fully GPL'ed software to test something... that doesn't seem like
a violation of Fedora values to me. (Note I'm differentiating between
"values" and best practices/packaging guidelines/etc. here.)

[1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Overview#Our_Core_Values

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Re: 2 week Atomic Host release ready for testing

[Joe Brockmeier]

On 09/10/2015 02:21 PM, Michael McGrath wrote:
> Latest Atomic Host build is ready for testing:

Any reason not to put this up on the Atomic blog (with the caveat that
this is not considered "ready for prime time")?

> http://dl.fedoraproject.org/pub/alt/fedora-atomic/images/testing/
> 
> kernel: 4.1.6-200
> docker: 1.7.1-8
> etcd: 2.0.13-2
> kubernetes: 1.1.0-0.5
> cloud-init: 0.7.6-3
> ostree: 2015.6-2
> atomic: 1.1-1
> 
> -Mike
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Re: [proposal] Joint meetings between upstream Atomic/Fedora Cloud WG

[Joe Brockmeier]

On 09/09/2015 02:02 PM, Haïkel wrote:
> So I suggest that every two weeks, we hold joint meetings as in merging
> our weekly meetings not adding a new one. This will enable us to work
> together more efficiently.
> 
> Your thoughts?

So - we don't do separate Project Atomic meetings - there's the CentOS
SIG meeting and Fedora Cloud. I'm amenable to doing just one joint
meeting or finding some way to merge them, though.

Also cc'ing the CentOS devel list.
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Re: atomic, kubernetes, etc on non x86_64

[Joe Brockmeier]

On 08/28/2015 10:40 AM, Troy Dawson wrote:
 
 On Fri, Aug 28, 2015 at 8:45 AM, Adam Miller
 maxamill...@fedoraproject.org mailto:maxamill...@fedoraproject.org
 wrote:
 
 On Fri, Aug 28, 2015 at 7:26 AM, Dennis Gilmore den...@ausil.us
 mailto:den...@ausil.us wrote:
  Hi all,
 
  Last night I had some time to myself, I decided to look at what it 
 would take
  to get atomic running on arm. after having to tweak some of the json 
 files.
  the hardcoded ref in it if not flexible at all
  -ref: fedora-atomic/rawhide/x86_64/docker-host,
  +ref: fedora-atomic/rawhide/armhfp/docker-host,
 
  Neither is the hardcoded packages,
  -grub2, grub2-efi, ostree-grub2,
  -efibootmgr, shim,
  +extlinux-bootloader,
 
  the packages in every other part of our deliverables are dealt with by 
 using
  comps and yum/dnf skipping over missing things. Which made me curious 
 about
  how it was envisioned to support atomic on multiple arches as it seems 
 to be
  designed around a single arch silo.
 
  However once I got past that I discovered that atomic and kubernetes 
 both had
  ExclusiveArch: x86_64 in the spec files (Violating packaging 
 guidelines in
  the process) but they do actually build just fine for all the primary 
 arches
  and are installable on arm at least. I was able to make a atomic repo 
 in the
  end.  I plan to throw together a kickstart and attempt to install it as 
 soon
  as I can.
 
 This is awesome, let me know if you have something that you'd like
 help testing. I have a spare TrimSlice that's currently sitting idle
 and would love to see some Atomic action on it. :)
 
 
  What will it take to fix the packaging and get people on board for 
 supporting
  the greater world?  could it be something we work with someone like
  https://www.scaleway.com/ who have arm based cloud servers today to
 support?
 
 How do we do that? Is there an official avenue to pursue working with
 cloud vendors? What was the process to get the Fedora Cloud image into
 IaaS providers with fedimg? (I assume some sort of relationship has to
 be established between Fedora as a project and the cloud provider)
 
 -AdamM
 
 
 Send the scaleway people an email, letting them know you are asking
 officially on behalf of Fedora cloud.
 In my personal dealings, they have been very nice to work with.
 I don't know how it came about, but I know that centos has 4 machines
 dedicated to them.  I'm not saying that will happen, just saying it.

It looks like we already have Fedora on Scaleway?

https://www.scaleway.com/imagehub/fedora/

Best,

jzb
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[VOTE] Make Atomic the primary focus of the Cloud Working Group

[Joe Brockmeier]

See ticket: https://fedorahosted.org/cloud/ticket/117

Thanks!

jzb
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Re: [DISCUSS] Making Atomic the cloud edition

[Joe Brockmeier]

On 08/24/2015 10:52 AM, Brian (bex) Exelbierd wrote:
 I'm well past the 72 hours, so this is probably able to be ignored, but ...
 
 On 08/21/2015 06:15 PM, Joe Brockmeier wrote:
 But I'd also disagree we need to spin up a new SIG around this when the
 mapping of the Cloud SIG and Atomic interest is close to (if not
 exactly) 1:1.
 
 It sounds like we are talking about creating sub-working groups of
 fedora-cloud for base, atomic, and docker image.  That does start to
 smell a bit like SIGs to me ...

To me, this feels like spinning up unnecessary committees. Folks who are
interested in working on Atomic host specifically will work on that,
folks who want to work on docker images will work on that, etc. All of
that fits the same umbrella and eventual story (we don't have a complete
story without Atomic host, we don't have a complete story without a good
Fedora Docker image, and we don't have a complete story unless the host
works well in public/private cloud) so I don't know that spinning up
SIGs for each piece gets us anywhere.

Also - those are implementation details *if* the working group decides
it wants to pursue Atomic as the main story for Cloud.

Can we take a vote today during the Cloud meeting?

Best,

jzb
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Re: [DISCUSS] Making Atomic the cloud edition

[Joe Brockmeier]

On 08/18/2015 08:34 PM, Josh Boyer wrote:
 
 On Aug 18, 2015 5:54 PM, Joe Brockmeier j...@redhat.com
 mailto:j...@redhat.com wrote:
 We also will continue to do the base cloud image - that won't go away -
 but it won't be the focus of the working group or its marketing.
 
 If it won't be the focus of the cloud work group, who do you expect to
 monitor its creation and correct operation?  I worry that it will fall
 by the wayside and bit rot into a state of disrepair.

Realized this morning that I responded face-to-face on this but not in
email. D'oh!

Most of the work that would go into making the base image is happening
already. We need to test it, but there doesn't seem to be a lot of churn
or major lifting required to keep creating the image. We don't seem to
have a lot of ideas for making the image more interesting - so there
won't be a lot of work from release to release there. (If we were
proposing a radical overhaul of some sort and saying it's not the main
focus then I would agree it's going to be problematic.)

Does anybody else feel we are unable to maintain the image as a sort of
basic offering for folks not ready to jump on Atomic?

Best,

jzb


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Re: [DISCUSS] Making Atomic the cloud edition

[Joe Brockmeier]

On 08/21/2015 06:49 AM, Matt Micene wrote:
 Given:
 
  jzb
 
 Given that a great deal of interesting work is going into the Fedora
 Atomic host, we'd like to make Atomic the main deliverable/focus for the
 Cloud Working Group and Cloud edition. 
 
 
 and
 
 mattdm
 
 For that, we need the Cloud Base to have *internal* visibility and
 connections, but it doesn't need to confuse the marketing message.
 
 
 I think moving the focus of Cloud SIG to focus on Atomic would confuse
 folks more than the currently slim messaging around the Cloud SIG
 goals.  I think CentOS has the right approach with a separate Atomic
 SIG, and I propose that we follow that model.  Split Atomic into it's
 own SIG, continue the Cloud SIG to focus on cloud things.

The question is what cloud things? In talking to other folks about
this - e.g. what could or should we be doing to make cloud more
interesting - I haven't heard a lot of ideas.

The message right now is we have an image you can use, it does the
standard things... we're kind of out of ideas to make it more interesting.

 Atomic is a new way of doing everything.  OS management changes, package
 management changes, Docker + K8S + Nulecule + Atomicapp + ? + ? + ?.  We
 are trying to move at a much more rapid pace than the rest of the Fedora
 Project products (see the 2 week release proposal).  We are breaking
 things at a much more rapid pace than other products as well.  Lots of
 initial answers on ask / IRC wind up as, update the tree see if it's
 still broken.
 
 I  don't think that if you say the word cloud in a room of IT folks
 today, that over 1% are going to think Atomic.  They think OpenStack,
 OpenShift, CloudFoundry, Eucalyptus, AWS, ownCloud, etc.  Fedora as
 foundation, Fedora as tenant, Fedora as a Service!  The new Cloud SIG
 draft reflects those use cases:
 https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Cloud_SIG-new-draft.  Fedora saying well
 when *we* say cloud we mean Atomic not what you think and having to
 explain it doesn't sound like a win.

That draft is from 2013. It's a bit out of date.

Note name of sig != name of deliverable. There's no reason we have to
keep a strong association with the name cloud on the site / marketing
materials.

But I'd also disagree we need to spin up a new SIG around this when the
mapping of the Cloud SIG and Atomic interest is close to (if not
exactly) 1:1.

Note also there's not a lot of work in things like OpenStack on Fedora
because it's so fast moving. The RDO folks tend to target CentOS rather
than Fedora, though I *think* that running on Fedora is also w/in scope.
(I'm CC'ing Rich Bowen here b/c he's far more in the know about our
OpenStack/RDO efforts than I.)

 And while there's overlap in uses like cloud-init, Atomic is much more
 likely to want a completely new compatible implementation because the
 dependency tree makes maintenance more complex than a Fedora OpenStack
 guest image will need to care about.  (See my previous rants on sizing
 ;-) ).  Or a Fedora Server optimized for running nova-compute.  The
 Cloud Base Image and the Atomic host or the Docker Base Image don't and
 shouldn't have much in common because the use cases are different.
  
 I do think that the Cloud SIG does need better messaging about its
 intents and goals.  The new SIG draft looks like a step in the right
 direction to me.  Define major focus areas (run IaaS on Fedora, run
 Fedora in IaaS, etc) then layer in use cases and projects from the group.

Again - it's several years old, so I'm not sure that the new draft is
applicable here. :-)

 A new Atomic SIG would focus on stabilizing the Atomic host, the
 delivery process, and the Docker base image.  Atomic hosts are all about
 running Docker workloads, so that makes sense to couple.  As
 containerization grows, I could see the need for moving Docker image
 management somewhere else.
 
 Did I miss the 72 hr window?

Not quite. Other thoughts?

Best,

jzb
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Re: [DISCUSS] Making Atomic the cloud edition

[Joe Brockmeier]

On 08/19/2015 10:34 AM, Lalatendu Mohanty wrote:
 
 Does it mean that we are assuming that we have considerable users using
 current fedora atomic image

It means we are seeing more activity and excitement in this area, more
room for growth, and ultimately think it's going to be more widely used.

Matthew's slides at Flock indicated that there was some decent adoption
of Atomic but we don't have huge numbers yet. But we've only had two
releases and this is still an early area...

Best,

jzb
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[DISCUSS] Making Atomic the cloud edition

[Joe Brockmeier]

Hi all,

For the folks who were at Flock last week, this is a recap of the
discussion we had and what I recall as the general agreement in the
room. If my memory has failed me, please add or correct as necessary.

For folks who weren't at Flock (or were, but not in the cloud working
group meeting), this is a brief recap of what we discussed and is
proposed - but *not* decided. I would like to reach a decision /
consensus here, so let's discuss here and I'll ask the working group
members to explicitly +1 (or not) within 72 hours. But absent any hard
-1s, better proposals, etc. then I'd like to close the discussion within
that timeframe so we can move on to discussing with FESCo and other
groups (Websites, marketing) who we'll need to sync with.

Given that a great deal of interesting work is going into the Fedora
Atomic host, we'd like to make Atomic the main deliverable/focus for the
Cloud Working Group and Cloud edition.

However, we know that Atomic doesn't fit well in the standard Fedora
six-month cycle, so we'd further propose making the two-week releases
the default deliverable - and work on appropriate testing so that users
who are using Fedora Atomic can expect that their containers and
Kubernetes orchestration won't break, but also will not need to care
whether the underlying release is based on F23, rawhide, etc.

This is going to require a lot of work to be done on testing so we can
ensure that we're not breaking anything and containers just work on
Atomic as users follow the updates on the 2-week cycle.

This will, I believe, need to go to FESCo and we'll have to put in some
serious cycles on documentation and work on marketing this. It's also
worth noting that this will mean very frequent releases and marketing
touchpoints as opposed to just alpha, beta, and final releases every six
months.

We also will continue to do the base cloud image - that won't go away -
but it won't be the focus of the working group or its marketing.

Finally, we also discussed that the host was only part of the larger
effort - we also need to pour some attention into improving the Docker
image, making that smaller and a better option.

Thoughts, comments, flames? Did I miss anything?

(Apologies if this is not the most coherent summary - I'm typing this
from the floor of LinuxCon North America and not able to give this the
amount of revision I would usually give for something of this
importance. However, time is a factor as the decision is required to
move forward on other items.)

Thanks,

jzb
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Re: Fedora Atomic Web site

[Joe Brockmeier]

On 08/11/2015 03:09 PM, Robert Mayr wrote:
 
 I remember we talked a bit about this on IRC but this topic needs to be
 discussed further indeed.
 I'm actually traveling to Rochester, so if you (and all involved)  are
 there I'm happy to talk about it.

Excellent. Let's chat in person and then carry back a summary to the
list. Any other folks at Flock are welcome to join in - and if anybody
not attending has an interest in working on this please let us know.

Thanks,

jzb
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Re: Fedora Atomic Web site

[Joe Brockmeier]

- Original Message -
 From: S.Kemter sirko.kem...@gmail.com
 To: Joe Brockmeier j...@redhat.com, Fedora Marketing team 
 market...@lists.fedoraproject.org
 Cc: Robert Mayr robyd...@fedoraproject.org, 
 cloud@lists.fedoraproject.org, websi...@lists.fedoraproject.org
 Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2015 7:45:34 AM
 Subject: Re: Fedora Atomic Web site
 
 Hi,
 
 Joe, Matt came a while ago to us with it and we said, he should put that
 into design clinic we have at flock anyway, that is what we thought this
 worshop for.

I guess we had some gaps in communication there, I didn't know this was on an 
agenda specifically for Flock. 

This is the Friday workshop at 5? I'll actually be heading out slightly before 
that, unfortunately. 

Best, 

jzb

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Re: F23 talking points draft

[Joe Brockmeier]

On 08/04/2015 07:49 AM, Gabriele Trombini wrote:
 Hi all,
 
 as usual marketing team drafted the talking points page [1].
 
 I'm not sure about the correct splitting up between the flavours and,
 of course, I'll be glad if you do correct any mistake in that page.
 
 [1]https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_23_talking_points

Hey - this is fantastic, thanks so much! Only one or two
comments/observations:

- Should we have an elevator pitch for this release, and what would it
be? What's the overall theme for Fedora 23?

- Should there be something about GCC in this set of talking points?

Best,

jzb
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Regrets for today's meeting

[Joe Brockmeier]

Hey all,

Apologies for missing meetings lately, and... won't be able to make this
week either due to attending OSCON. :-(

Will try to keep an eye on meeting minutes to see if there's anything
needed on my end. Summer/conference season is cray cray.

Best,

jzb
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Re: SCLs and Cloud Re: Cloud image use cases

[Joe Brockmeier]

On 07/10/2015 12:39 PM, Matt Micene wrote:
 
 I just know I really like SCLs, how they work, and the capabilities. 
 It's a big differentiator for the distro at large, and could be really
 useful for the envisioned Cloud end-user.  I don't want to step on
 nuanced discussions of over 18+ months though.

If I'm not mistaken, though - the 'nuanced discussions' are pretty much
at a standstill at this point?

Best,

jzb
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Re: Cloud image use cases

[Joe Brockmeier]

On 07/10/2015 12:59 PM, Josh Boyer wrote:
 
 The atomic image is squarely targeted at being small, and for running
 containers.  It is somewhat positioned as a CoreOS solution.  With
 that being the case, I'm curious how the cloud image is different and
 not a repetitive image simply not using the atomic mechanisms.

That's sort of a key difference -- atomic == I can't just dnf install
things. cloud == I can add on what I want the way I'm used to doing.
(e.g., not containerized)
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Re: Cloud image use cases

[Joe Brockmeier]

On 07/10/2015 04:42 PM, Josh Boyer wrote:
 On Fri, Jul 10, 2015 at 11:26 AM, Joe Brockmeier j...@redhat.com wrote:
 On 07/10/2015 12:59 PM, Josh Boyer wrote:

 The atomic image is squarely targeted at being small, and for running
 containers.  It is somewhat positioned as a CoreOS solution.  With
 that being the case, I'm curious how the cloud image is different and
 not a repetitive image simply not using the atomic mechanisms.

 That's sort of a key difference -- atomic == I can't just dnf install
 things. cloud == I can add on what I want the way I'm used to doing.
 (e.g., not containerized)
 
 Yes, absolutely.  However, if that is the only difference then I'm not
 sure how compelling it is when you compare it to all the other images
 provided elsewhere that let you do that already.  Conversely, atomic
 is compelling _because_ of the Atomic platform.  Atomic has novelty
 (for now), decent technical advantages, and a lot more marketing
 behind it.

Well, I mean... it's compelling for us because we want people to have
Fedora available $all_the_places, right?

So having only Atomic means we'd basically be saying if you want to do
things in the cloud, either do them the Atomic way or use another
project, right?

 So what I'm really after is what sets Fedora Cloud apart from every
 other distro cloud image.  What use cases is it better at than {Ubuntu,
 SuSE, whatever}.  How should it be positioned so the people want to
 use it over those, etc.  Fedora, in the Cloud space, is still behind
 in market share compared to the rest of the Linux world.  I'm really
 curious if that can be overcome, or if instead the focus should be on
 Atomic entirely because it has a better chance.

I don't think the use case for a generic, modifiable image is going away
anytime soon. As far as features go - I'm not sure there's tons of
daylight between what Ubuntu and Fedora do -- just (as you mention
below) there's more in common between two Linux distros on the desktop
than not.

Open to suggestions as to what we could do to make Fedora massively more
compelling.

I think we'd be sending the wrong message by abandoning the generic
cloud image, though.

 (To be fair, Workstation and Server also have the same questions to
 answer in comparison to their peers.  However, they have both history
 and familiarity on their side.  Fedora has traditionally been a
 desktop OS and Server can feed off of RHEL which dominates the
 enterprise space.  Cloud doesn't share that luxury.)


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Re: User feedback gathering plans?

[Joe Brockmeier]

On 07/08/2015 07:17 PM, Honza Horak wrote:
 
 Thus, I'd like to find out whether there are some ideas already how to
 gather feedback from your users or whether you plan to do something
 where we can participate.

I'm not aware of any, but we should probably discuss this - anybody have
thoughts here?

Best,

jzb
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Re: Cloud image use cases

[Joe Brockmeier]

On 07/10/2015 05:01 PM, Josh Boyer wrote:
 On Fri, Jul 10, 2015 at 11:51 AM, Joe Brockmeier j...@redhat.com wrote:
 On 07/10/2015 04:42 PM, Josh Boyer wrote:
 On Fri, Jul 10, 2015 at 11:26 AM, Joe Brockmeier j...@redhat.com wrote:
 On 07/10/2015 12:59 PM, Josh Boyer wrote:

 The atomic image is squarely targeted at being small, and for running
 containers.  It is somewhat positioned as a CoreOS solution.  With
 that being the case, I'm curious how the cloud image is different and
 not a repetitive image simply not using the atomic mechanisms.

 That's sort of a key difference -- atomic == I can't just dnf install
 things. cloud == I can add on what I want the way I'm used to doing.
 (e.g., not containerized)

 Yes, absolutely.  However, if that is the only difference then I'm not
 sure how compelling it is when you compare it to all the other images
 provided elsewhere that let you do that already.  Conversely, atomic
 is compelling _because_ of the Atomic platform.  Atomic has novelty
 (for now), decent technical advantages, and a lot more marketing
 behind it.

 Well, I mean... it's compelling for us because we want people to have
 Fedora available $all_the_places, right?
 
 Not always.  We don't want people to have Fedora on their phones. :)

We don't? I mean, I do - that doesn't mean we're invested in that,
specifically, but that'd be cool. I'd certainly buy a Fedora phone. :-)

 So having only Atomic means we'd basically be saying if you want to do
 things in the cloud, either do them the Atomic way or use another
 project, right?
 
 The perception I've seen already indicates we're going that way.  If
 all the hype is around containers these days, even the Fedora cloud
 download page plays Atomic up.  It positions Atomic as the solution
 for containers and makes no mention of the fact that the base image
 would work too.  It just says it's flexible.

It is. There are a number of scenarios where I can't imagine someone
adopting Atomic right now. Remember, we don't even know how many people
may be consuming the cloud image quietly...

 I think we'd be sending the wrong message by abandoning the generic
 cloud image, though.
 
 Sure, maybe.  So instead maybe try sending just as strong of a message
 for the Cloud image as is done for the Atomic image.  This is really
 primarily a marketing issue.  The more I try and figure this all out,
 the more I think Cloud is being overshadowed by Atomic and keeping
 them together is detrimental in the long run.
 
 My perspective is going to be much different from someone that lives
 and breaths cloud on a daily basis.  But if I'm confused, there are
 other people out there wondering the same thing and clearing it up
 will help more than just me.

So, I guess I'm unclear on the ask here? What is the desired outcome
you're looking for? Separate workgroups? A new product specifically
around Atomic, or...?


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SCLs and Cloud Re: Cloud image use cases

[Joe Brockmeier]

On 07/10/2015 04:59 PM, Matt Micene wrote:
 I think the Cloud SIG should be jumping up and down on getting SCLs back
 on track.

What would this entail? I haven't been following that closely. I'm aware
that SCLs have been... contentious.
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Re: /usr/bin/ps missing from fedora:22 docker base image

[Joe Brockmeier]

On 07/07/2015 05:25 PM, Haïkel wrote:
 Looks like a bad idea, you don't need it in a container.

That may be, but doesn't really answer the question of how it was
decided that it be dropped. If it's an incidental/accidental thing, we
should have a discussion of whether there's general agreement on this
assertion.

(Presumably it's always possible to pull in ps or other tools in a
container, so this isn't quite as drastic as deciding to drop something
in an Atomic Host...)

Best,

jzb
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Re: Testing Docker images (and possibly other cloud images) in CentOS CI

[Joe Brockmeier]

On 07/02/2015 10:42 AM, Matthew Miller wrote:
 
 As a first step, does anyone have a problem with saying to CentOS,
 Cool! Start running those tests! Thanks! — even if we don't know what
 exactly what we're going to do with any results? 

Heck no, no problem whatsoever. Surely we subscribe to the idea that
anybody should be free to run or test our software as part of the
freedom we promote with Fedora. Totally happy to see the CentOS folks
doing this.

Best,

jzb
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Re: PRD Update (Review needed)

[Joe Brockmeier]

On 06/18/2015 07:35 PM, Mike Ruckman wrote:
 Hey fellow cloudies!
 
 I've updated the PRD [0] with the discussion points from the Talk
 [1] page. I think I got everything in there where people had it in mind.
 Please take a look at the PRD and edit it or leave more feedback on the
 Talk page.
 
 The Council is wanting this submitted for their review ASAP - so I'll be
 submitting this as our F23 PRD at 1800 UTC tomorrow. They meet on Monday
 to go over it. Please let me know if I missed anything!

There's a lot here that really needs updating. If I'm not mistaken, the
council is skipping Monday's meeting due to so many people at Summit.

Perhaps we can continue to work on this in the meantime?

Best,

jzb
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Re: basic plan for two-week atomic images

[Joe Brockmeier]

On 06/12/2015 11:00 AM, Adam Miller wrote:
 
 I'm not sure how much people actually care about this since I never
 got a response to my previous email. However, I did at least want to
 follow up with a status update because this is something I have a
 personal interest in as I'm a big fan of Atomic and really want to
 make sure it succeeds.

I, for one, care a lot - but have been buried. Sorry.

Thanks much for the update!

Best,

jzb
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Re: Fedora 22 is out, Fedora 23 is coming :)

[Joe Brockmeier]

On 06/11/2015 02:45 PM, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:
 But do they need different install media? Or can they live within one
 release image that has selectable options?
 
 I think a Workstation Live image, a netinstall image and a server DVD
 image are sufficient to create any Fedora laptop, desktop, server or
 cloud installation you want. Is that not the case? For an install
 without internet there would be some packages that aren't on the DVD
 image but you could have them on your intranet.

As Matthew said, we've had this conversation before.

I don't want to take a DVD or any kind of install image and spin it up
to craft an AMI or image for OpenStack or whatever - I want a premade
image I can spin up *immediately*. I want it tailored *for that
environment* and that's it.
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Re: [Cloud WG] meeting time change request

[Joe Brockmeier]

On 06/10/2015 02:54 PM, Haïkel wrote:
 I request that we change the meeting time to 5PM UTC.
 It should be fine for most of us, and we can't keep that current
 schedule.
 Please vote in that thread (-1/+0/+1)

AFAICT, my schedule is clear at 5 p.m. UTC right now.

+1

Best,

jzb
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Re: Fedora 22 is out, Fedora 23 is coming :)

[Joe Brockmeier]

On 06/01/2015 06:46 PM, Rickard von Essen wrote:
 I think there is one good (nearly) point and click installer that we
 could use (more): vagrant. Currently there is only boxes for VirtualBox
 and libvirt, maybe it would be possible to provide boxes for VMware,
 Parallels, KVM etc. It would also be great to publish the meta-info
 on https://atlas.hashicorp.com to allow something like vagrant init
 fedora/atomic-23.

we should add this to the PRD / features for F23. Note that it's not
always trivial to add support for new box types. (Note, KVM is implied
with libvirt, so we have that covered. Does Vagrant have a Parallels
provider? VMware seems like an important target.)

 If we are looking for a more boot2docker like solution it is good to
 know that boot2docker (cli) is being deprecated by docker machine which
 actually (soon) have a decent number of drivers (VirtualBox, VMware
 etc). Docker machine just downloads and uses the boot2docker.iso. It
 should be possible to use another iso as long as it follows some
 expectations by docker machine. In the near future there will also be a
 GUI for docker machine called https://kitematic.com/ .

I haven't tried docker machine, we should look into this...

Best,

jzb
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For Fedora 23: Atomic App Nulecule Specification

[Joe Brockmeier]

Hey all,

Would like to start a conversation about featuring the Atomic App +
Nulecule specification for Fedora 23. These are related to Atomic, but
not actually dependent on an Atomic Host.

Nulecule spec here: https://github.com/projectatomic/nulecule

Atomic App here: https://github.com/projectatomic/atomicapp

Post by Christoph Görn about Atomic App 0.1.1 here:

http://www.projectatomic.io/blog/2015/05/atomic-app-0-1-0/

Best,

jzb
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Fedora Cloud Working Group Meeting Minutes from 6 May 2015

[Joe Brockmeier]

=
#fedora-meeting-1: Fedora Cloud Working Group
=


Meeting started by jzb at 19:04:42 UTC. The full logs are available at
http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting-1/2015-05-06/fedora-meeting-1.2015-05-06-19.04.log.html
.



Meeting summary
---
* Care and Feeding, Fedora Dockerfiles  (jzb, 19:09:25)
  * LINK: https://fedorahosted.org/cloud/ticket/84   (jzb, 19:09:36)
  * ACTION: jbrooks create repo/branch for fedora-dockerfiles package
and submit branch to docker hub for auto-building.  (jzb, 19:23:02)

* Considering a host UID/GID upgrade discontinuity  (jzb, 19:26:16)
  * LINK: https://fedorahosted.org/cloud/ticket/102   (jzb, 19:26:25)
  * LINK:

https://lists.projectatomic.io/projectatomic-archives/atomic-devel/2015-April/msg00081.html
(jzb, 19:26:40)

* open floor  (jzb, 19:47:05)
  * ACTION: scollier write a blog post and create a video on how to get
started with the Containers Best Practices Guide on Project
Atomic.  (jzb, 19:49:06)

Meeting ended at 20:08:05 UTC.




Action Items

* jbrooks create repo/branch for fedora-dockerfiles package and submit
  branch to docker hub for auto-building.
* scollier write a blog post and create a video on how to get started
  with the Containers Best Practices Guide on Project Atomic.




Action Items, by person
---
* jbrooks
  * jbrooks create repo/branch for fedora-dockerfiles package and submit
branch to docker hub for auto-building.
* scollier
  * scollier write a blog post and create a video on how to get started
with the Containers Best Practices Guide on Project Atomic.
* **UNASSIGNED**
  * (none)




People Present (lines said)
---
* jzb (84)
* scollier (43)
* dustymabe (32)
* walters (26)
* sgallagh (19)
* adimania (15)
* zodbot (9)
* jbrooks (9)




Generated by `MeetBot`_ 0.1.4

.. _`MeetBot`: http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot
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Re: Starting the Talking Points for F22

[Joe Brockmeier]

On 04/14/2015 09:14 PM, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:
 the next best thing is a CentOS
 Atomic that tracks RHEL Atomic.

The CentOS SIG is planning this.

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Re: Starting the Talking Points for F22

[Joe Brockmeier]

On 04/07/2015 02:27 PM, Matthew Miller wrote:
 On Tue, Apr 07, 2015 at 10:40:48AM -0700, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:
 And I also added a question  how do we want to talk about Atomic in
 this release?
 Features, benefits and advantages ;-)
 
 Yes, those, please. :)
 
 But, also, are we going to talk about it in context of the planned
 every-two-week releases, and as graduating from the cloud umbrella,
 or about its at-F22 state and as a Cloud SIG/WG output?

Here's what I'd say, lemme know if this sounds sane:

What we've found so far is that the Fedora Project is a great home for
the kind of work we're doing to develop Atomic Hosts and keep up with
changes in the various projects that require changes all the way up the
stack. However, the Fedora *release* schedule is actually a bit of a
constraint - and we also don't want to cause Fedora releases to slip
because we may have a bug that only affects production of the Atomic
host and none of the other editions, including the standard Cloud offering.

So we've decided that while the technologies are maturing so rapidly,
it's better have a fast-moving remix or spin that gives users the
opportunity to use a Fedora-based Atomic Host and gives our developers
the ability to move fast and break things if needed.

Thoughts, comments, flames?

Best,

jzb


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Urgent: Bug 1210428 - Cloud images won't successfully reboot

[Joe Brockmeier]

Hey all,

So bug 1210428 was adopted as a blocker for beta, we need to get this
addressed ASAP to avoid holding up the release any longer than necessary.

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1210428

I haven't actually had time to look at this yet, do we have anybody on this?

Best,

jzb
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Fwd: [atomic-devel] incorrect permissions

[Joe Brockmeier]

For folks not subscribed to atomic-devel.

- Forwarded Message -
From: Scott Collier emailscottcoll...@gmail.com
To: atomic-de...@projectatomic.io
Sent: Friday, April 3, 2015 1:34:38 AM
Subject: [atomic-devel] incorrect permissions

I was testing cockpit on the F22 Atomic image and ran into this issue.  
Cockpit would start, but I could not connect to it because SSH was 
having a problem.  The error cockpit gave after trying to login to the 
web interface was:

Couldn't connect or authenticate: no-host

This may have been brought up before, I didn't dig into existing issues.

The problem was permissions on these two files:

/etc/ssh/ssh_host_ecdsa_key
/etc/ssh/ssh_host_rsa_key

The message from systemctl status sshd was:

# systemctl status sshd
● sshd.service - OpenSSH server daemon
Loaded: loaded (/usr/lib/systemd/system/sshd.service; enabled; 
vendor preset: enabled)
Active: active (running) since Fri 2015-04-03 05:27:21 UTC; 7s ago
  Docs: man:sshd(8)
man:sshd_config(5)
  Main PID: 5183 (sshd)
Memory: 844.0K
CGroup: /system.slice/sshd.service
└─5183 /usr/sbin/sshd -D

Apr 03 05:27:21 atomic-00.localdomain sshd[5183]: 
@@@
Apr 03 05:27:21 atomic-00.localdomain sshd[5183]: @ WARNING: 
UNPROTECTED PRIVATE KEY FILE!  @
Apr 03 05:27:21 atomic-00.localdomain sshd[5183]: 
@@@
Apr 03 05:27:21 atomic-00.localdomain sshd[5183]: Permissions 0640 for 
'/etc/ssh/ssh_host_rsa_key' are too open.
Apr 03 05:27:21 atomic-00.localdomain sshd[5183]: It is required that 
your private key files are NOT accessible by others.
Apr 03 05:27:21 atomic-00.localdomain sshd[5183]: This private key will 
be ignored.
Apr 03 05:27:21 atomic-00.localdomain sshd[5183]: key_load_private: bad 
permissions
Apr 03 05:27:21 atomic-00.localdomain sshd[5183]: Could not load host 
key: /etc/ssh/ssh_host_rsa_key
Apr 03 05:27:21 atomic-00.localdomain sshd[5183]: Server listening on 
0.0.0.0 port 22.
Apr 03 05:27:21 atomic-00.localdomain sshd[5183]: Server listening on :: 
port 22.

So, I changes the permissions on both files to 600 and restarted sshd, 
then cockpit was able to connect.

Version:

# atomic host status
   TIMESTAMP (UTC) VERSION   ID OSNAME REFSPEC
* 2015-04-02 10:45:23 22.29 0db0777dfb fedora-atomic 
fedora-atomic:fedora-atomic/f22/x86_64/docker-host
   2015-03-05 11:02:11 22.6  e1e60980f1 fedora-atomic 
fedora-atomic:fedora-atomic/f22/x86_64/docker-host

-scott


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Starting the Talking Points for F22

[Joe Brockmeier]

Hey all,

Have put up the page for talking points for this release:

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_22_talking_points

What we want to get to is a coherent story for Fedora 22 so marketing
can weave that into the beta and final announcements, plus Ambassadors
can use the talking points when they're at events (etc.), and for
anybody who's talking to press about the F22 release.

Cross-posting to working group lists to get feedback on the Cloud,
Server, and Workstation editions.

Best,

jzb
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Re: Review: Using Fedora 22 Atomic Vagrant Boxes

[Joe Brockmeier]

On 04/01/2015 06:29 PM, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:
 Did this get published? The paste seems to have vanished.

Yes, a long time ago.
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Re: Atomic 2 Week Proposal

[Joe Brockmeier]

On 03/25/2015 07:10 PM, Matthew Miller wrote:
 On Wed, Mar 25, 2015 at 03:00:05PM -0400, Joe Brockmeier wrote:
 https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Cloud/Atomic-2-Week-Proposal
 
 One thing to think about, not necessarily as a blocker or to tie this
 up, but related to the effect section With the product/edition
 strategy, we're trying to make nice, tailored elevator pitches for
 each. Fedora Workstation is the best desktop for software developers.
 Fedora Server makes it easy to manage small server environments with
 pushbutton deployment of complex services. Fedora Atomic runs
 containerized applications.
 
 The Fedora Cloud Base image is a great place to start for just about
 _anything_ you want to build up in a cloud environment, but what can we
 offer beyond that? If you're already planning on using Fedora and then
 want a cloud guest image, it's perfect, but what's the hook for using
 Fedora rather than some other Linux base?

As you say - that's not entirely tied to this. I would agree that we
need more hook for cloud base, but I'm concerned Atomic is bogged down
by the current release cycle.

Maybe start a separate discussion on that issue?

Best,

jzb



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Regrets for today's meeting

[Joe Brockmeier]

Hi all, 

Am in all-day meeting, I may be able to poke my head in but I don't think that 
I will be able to be fully engaged today. 

I do have the proposal I promised here:

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Cloud/Atomic-2-Week-Proposal

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Re: Non-atomic Vagrant images?

[Joe Brockmeier]

- Original Message -
 From: Matthew Miller mat...@fedoraproject.org
 To: Fedora Cloud SIG cloud@lists.fedoraproject.org
 Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2015 7:31:13 AM
 Subject: Re: Non-atomic Vagrant images?
 
 On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 08:41:55PM -0400, Matthew Miller wrote:
   I think Matthew Miller said he added the kickstart file, need to see
   what else needs to be done there.
   Someone needs to test that it works, and make any needed changes.
   Send me the kickstart file and I'll spin a version using packer
  Cool.
  https://git.fedorahosted.org/cgit/spin-kickstarts.git/tree/fedora-cloud-base-vagrant.ks
  You'll probably need to flatten the includes.
 
 Was someone able to test this? I'm not really a vagrant user

If we have images, I can test them today. 

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Re: Fedora Cloud Docs

[Joe Brockmeier]

On 03/24/2015 01:01 PM, Jared K. Smith wrote:
 
 If there's a particular cloud-related topic you'd like to write about --
 go write!  And then we can worry about the tooling, once there's some
 content to work with.

I agree...ish. If Kushal, myself, mattdm, and jbrooks (for example) are
collaborating on a document, we really need a single format to target.

Best,

jzb
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Re: Cloud image lifetimes

[Joe Brockmeier]

On 03/19/2015 12:11 AM, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:
 
 If you have raw data, I'd be happy to explore it for you - email me
 off-list if you need an NDA or something like that.

Any data we have should be shared with all or none. We don't have a
Fedora NDA AFAIK.

Best,

jzb
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Re: Cloud image lifetimes

[Joe Brockmeier]

On 03/18/2015 06:38 PM, David Gay wrote:
 Greetings!
 
 We sort of ran out of time in today's Cloud WG meeting, but I did want
 to ask:
 
 What are your thoughts on AMI lifetimes? That is to say, how long should
 EC2 AMIs exist before they're deleted? A few points to consider:

I feel like I should know this, but I don't.

If a user spins up an AMI and then it's deleted by the provider, do they
still have their instance(s) or do they lose the ability to create new
images?

That would color my response a bit.

Do we know how other projects handle theirs? If I go to spin up a Foo
Linux release from 2 years ago, is the AMI still there?

At minimum, we should probably delete any AMIs that are no longer a
supported version of Fedora, and I'd also be for deleting any TC, alpha,
beta, etc. AMIs - especially once a release is published. So, for
instance, any F21 alpha, beta, etc. AMIs can probably go to the great
bit bucket in the sky at this point.

Also wonder if this is something we need to have ACK'ed by FESCo?

Best,

jzb
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Re: Cloud SIG meeting minutes (2015-03-18)

[Joe Brockmeier]

On 03/18/2015 06:13 PM, Matthew Miller wrote:
 On Wed, Mar 18, 2015 at 06:04:22PM -0400, Jason Brooks wrote:
 * jzb help find scollier additional maintainer for dockerfiles
 On this item, I believe that the CentOS folks are interested 
 in working together on Dockerfiles maintenance. Perhaps
 CentOS Dockerfiles and Fedora Dockerfiles could live together
 under Project Atomic?
 
 That'd definitely be interesting. (As would a combined registry of
 images!)

I'd be for this - any objections? I'm CC'ing Scott and Jim Perrin to see
how they feel about it.

Refs:
https://fedorahosted.org/cloud/ticket/84
https://fedorahosted.org/cloud/ticket/97
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