Polishing the F22 Cloud talking points [was Re: Starting the Talking Points for F22]
On Mon, Apr 06, 2015 at 10:15:35AM -0400, Joe Brockmeier wrote: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_22_talking_points What we want to get to is a coherent story for Fedora 22 so marketing can weave that into the beta and final announcements, plus Ambassadors can use the talking points when they're at events (etc.), and for anybody who's talking to press about the F22 release. Hey everyone! Any progress / ideas for this? The cloud section needs some help! -- Matthew Miller mat...@fedoraproject.org Fedora Project Leader ___ cloud mailing list cloud@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/cloud Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Starting the Talking Points for F22
On 04/14/2015 09:14 PM, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote: the next best thing is a CentOS Atomic that tracks RHEL Atomic. The CentOS SIG is planning this. -- Joe Brockmeier | Principal Cloud Storage Analyst j...@redhat.com | http://community.redhat.com/ Twitter: @jzb | http://dissociatedpress.net/ signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ cloud mailing list cloud@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/cloud Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Starting the Talking Points for F22
On Thu, Apr 09, 2015 at 08:31:49AM -0400, Joe Brockmeier wrote: Here's what I'd say, lemme know if this sounds sane: [...] So we've decided that while the technologies are maturing so rapidly, it's better have a fast-moving remix or spin that gives users the opportunity to use a Fedora-based Atomic Host and gives our developers the ability to move fast and break things if needed. That works for me. Any volunteers for actually working on making http://atomic.fedoraproject.org/? -- Matthew Miller mat...@fedoraproject.org Fedora Project Leader ___ cloud mailing list cloud@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/cloud Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Starting the Talking Points for F22
On Tue, Apr 14, 2015 at 06:14:13PM -0700, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote: That seems like a missing step in the test / QA process - one which I've been force to script in my own testing process for releasing on F22. Weren't the F21 Docker images posted to Docker Hub for anyone to test at some point before final release? Admittedly I haven't looked at the formal test pages on the wiki so I don't know if it's there or not. Also, the test compose / release candidate cycle doesn't always deliver a Docker image tarball - RC1 had one but RC2 doesn't. Part of the problem is that the docker image upload process is actually a manual pull request on github. I cc'd Lokesh, who has been handling this (thanks Lokesh!) and can maybe fill in more. [and, switching topics] My Atomic use case is quite narrow and outside what I think is the mainstream Atomic use case. I'm using it as a Docker host running under Windows 8.1 and Windows 10 Client Hyper-V in place of Boot2Docker or Docker Machine. Almost any Atomic build will do that now but I'm looking for something that is slower-moving than a full release every two weeks. A full release every Fedora release is ideal but since that's been ruled out, the next best thing is a CentOS Atomic that tracks RHEL Atomic. It's not completely ruled out; we're just not feeling ready for it yet. -- Matthew Miller mat...@fedoraproject.org Fedora Project Leader ___ cloud mailing list cloud@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/cloud Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Starting the Talking Points for F22
On Tue, Apr 14, 2015 at 03:26:36PM -0700, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote: 1. *Fedora* Atomic host and its release media / disk images / Vagrant boxes Right. 2. Fedora 22 Docker image (which right now is a tarball and not available on Docker Hub) There *is* an official docker image on the hub, at https://registry.hub.docker.com/_/fedora/. F22 will go there when it is released. As I understand it, they didn't want it filled up with alha and beta images. 3. fedora-dockerfiles package Plus, layered images built from these on top of the base image. Those are available in the Docker Hub too (https://hub.docker.com/u/fedora/), and possibly on a Fedora-run registry at some point. Personally, I'd make the Docker image on Docker Hub a final release blocker, document the workflow for fedora-dockerfiles and Docker image extensively as part of Workstation, which is indeed at least half of how I spend my time on Workstation. I'd be happy to contribute what I can from the OSJourno project. More documentation for that would be _very_ welcome. I think the pivot moving Atomic out of the Fedora process is a problem for developers, but given how fast Docker and Kubernetes are moving it's unavoidable. My Atomic use case will be well-served by the upcoming CentOS effort to make a CentOS Atomic that tracks RHEL Atomic. As with CentOS itself, the development path will be from this updated-every-two-weeks Fedora Atomic to its slower-moving downstreams, but as I understand the plan, on a _much_ faster timeframe. So, it's great to be involved at both levels. -- Matthew Miller mat...@fedoraproject.org Fedora Project Leader ___ cloud mailing list cloud@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/cloud Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Starting the Talking Points for F22
On Tue, Apr 14, 2015, at 09:41 AM, Matthew Miller wrote: On Thu, Apr 09, 2015 at 08:31:49AM -0400, Joe Brockmeier wrote: Here's what I'd say, lemme know if this sounds sane: [...] So we've decided that while the technologies are maturing so rapidly, it's better have a fast-moving remix or spin that gives users the opportunity to use a Fedora-based Atomic Host and gives our developers the ability to move fast and break things if needed. That works for me. Any volunteers for actually working on making http://atomic.fedoraproject.org/? And to clarify, we're then backing out all of the Atomic bits in Fedora 22 mainline rel-eng such as the repository and cloud image, vagrant box, and installer? ___ cloud mailing list cloud@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/cloud Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Starting the Talking Points for F22
On Tue, Apr 14, 2015 at 6:58 AM, Joe Brockmeier j...@redhat.com wrote: On 04/14/2015 09:50 AM, Colin Walters wrote: On Tue, Apr 14, 2015, at 09:41 AM, Matthew Miller wrote: On Thu, Apr 09, 2015 at 08:31:49AM -0400, Joe Brockmeier wrote: Here's what I'd say, lemme know if this sounds sane: [...] So we've decided that while the technologies are maturing so rapidly, it's better have a fast-moving remix or spin that gives users the opportunity to use a Fedora-based Atomic Host and gives our developers the ability to move fast and break things if needed. That works for me. Any volunteers for actually working on making http://atomic.fedoraproject.org/? And to clarify, we're then backing out all of the Atomic bits in Fedora 22 mainline rel-eng such as the repository and cloud image, vagrant box, and installer? No - the plan is still to deliver F22 Atomic, though it's non-blocking. But we will not be doing an official F23 Atomic. Best, jzb -- Joe Brockmeier | Principal Cloud Storage Analyst j...@redhat.com | http://community.redhat.com/ Twitter: @jzb | http://dissociatedpress.net/ ___ cloud mailing list cloud@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/cloud Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct So then we need talking points for F22 Atomic Cloud that clearly define the pieces and their roadmaps, right? Pieces: 1. *Fedora* Atomic host and its release media / disk images / Vagrant boxes 2. Fedora 22 Docker image (which right now is a tarball and not available on Docker Hub) 3. fedora-dockerfiles package Personally, I'd make the Docker image on Docker Hub a final release blocker, document the workflow for fedora-dockerfiles and Docker image extensively as part of Workstation, which is indeed at least half of how I spend my time on Workstation. I'd be happy to contribute what I can from the OSJourno project. I think the pivot moving Atomic out of the Fedora process is a problem for developers, but given how fast Docker and Kubernetes are moving it's unavoidable. My Atomic use case will be well-served by the upcoming CentOS effort to make a CentOS Atomic that tracks RHEL Atomic. -- OSJourno: Robust Power Tools for Digital Journalists http://www.znmeb.mobi/stories/osjourno-robust-power-tools-for-digital-journalists Remember, if you're traveling to Bactria, Hump Day is Tuesday and Thursday. ___ cloud mailing list cloud@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/cloud Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Starting the Talking Points for F22
On 04/07/2015 02:27 PM, Matthew Miller wrote: On Tue, Apr 07, 2015 at 10:40:48AM -0700, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote: And I also added a question how do we want to talk about Atomic in this release? Features, benefits and advantages ;-) Yes, those, please. :) But, also, are we going to talk about it in context of the planned every-two-week releases, and as graduating from the cloud umbrella, or about its at-F22 state and as a Cloud SIG/WG output? Here's what I'd say, lemme know if this sounds sane: What we've found so far is that the Fedora Project is a great home for the kind of work we're doing to develop Atomic Hosts and keep up with changes in the various projects that require changes all the way up the stack. However, the Fedora *release* schedule is actually a bit of a constraint - and we also don't want to cause Fedora releases to slip because we may have a bug that only affects production of the Atomic host and none of the other editions, including the standard Cloud offering. So we've decided that while the technologies are maturing so rapidly, it's better have a fast-moving remix or spin that gives users the opportunity to use a Fedora-based Atomic Host and gives our developers the ability to move fast and break things if needed. Thoughts, comments, flames? Best, jzb -- Joe Brockmeier | Principal Cloud Storage Analyst j...@redhat.com | http://community.redhat.com/ Twitter: @jzb | http://dissociatedpress.net/ signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ cloud mailing list cloud@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/cloud Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Starting the Talking Points for F22
On Mon, Apr 06, 2015 at 10:15:35AM -0400, Joe Brockmeier wrote: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_22_talking_points [this reply to cloud sig only] I added a bit about Vagrant. What else do we have? And I also added a question how do we want to talk about Atomic in this release? -- Matthew Miller mat...@fedoraproject.org Fedora Project Leader ___ cloud mailing list cloud@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/cloud Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Starting the Talking Points for F22
On Tue, Apr 07, 2015 at 10:40:48AM -0700, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote: And I also added a question how do we want to talk about Atomic in this release? Features, benefits and advantages ;-) Yes, those, please. :) But, also, are we going to talk about it in context of the planned every-two-week releases, and as graduating from the cloud umbrella, or about its at-F22 state and as a Cloud SIG/WG output? -- Matthew Miller mat...@fedoraproject.org Fedora Project Leader ___ cloud mailing list cloud@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/cloud Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Starting the Talking Points for F22
On Tue, Apr 7, 2015 at 10:43 AM, Michael P. McGrath mmcgr...@redhat.com wrote: From: M. Edward (Ed) Borasky zn...@znmeb.net Seriously, though, my sense after struggling with the existing Atomic documentation is that it is a tool only for a very sophisticated class of developer / operations people. So I'd take a look at the marketing materials for RHEL's Atomic and talk about how one can use the Fedora Atomic to do similar things. It's not intended to be though I understand why you'd get that impression. Usability is something that could use some work. It's not so much usability, it's a matter of the intended audience. Most people do *not* have Google-scale or OpenShift-Online / OpenShift-Enterprise-scale problems, and that's my impression of what the sweet spot is for Atomic / Kubernetes. If you're developing for that kind of operation, Atomic / Kubernetes have features / benefits / advantages compared to other PaaS offerings, as I'm sure the RHEL marketing team can show. I'm doing what I'm doing (Atomic under Client Hyper-V on a laptop) because I want to reduce the number of vendors down to Red Hat / Fedora and Microsoft. ;-) While we're on the subject of talking points for cloud, a big part of that is 'fedora-dockerfiles'. That's a lot more interesting to smaller-scale users like me, IMHO. See https://fedorahosted.org/cloud/ticket/84. For the curious, this is what I'm building - https://registry.hub.docker.com/u/znmeb/osjourno-devel/. -- OSJourno: Robust Power Tools for Digital Journalists http://www.znmeb.mobi/stories/osjourno-robust-power-tools-for-digital-journalists Remember, if you're traveling to Bactria, Hump Day is Tuesday and Thursday. ___ cloud mailing list cloud@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/cloud Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Starting the Talking Points for F22
On Tue, Apr 7, 2015 at 5:05 AM, Matthew Miller mat...@fedoraproject.org wrote: On Mon, Apr 06, 2015 at 10:15:35AM -0400, Joe Brockmeier wrote: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_22_talking_points [this reply to cloud sig only] I added a bit about Vagrant. What else do we have? And I also added a question how do we want to talk about Atomic in this release? Features, benefits and advantages ;-) Seriously, though, my sense after struggling with the existing Atomic documentation is that it is a tool only for a very sophisticated class of developer / operations people. So I'd take a look at the marketing materials for RHEL's Atomic and talk about how one can use the Fedora Atomic to do similar things. My own use case (planned - not sure it will be done by F22 release) is deploying web apps as Fedora Docker images to Windows 8.1 (and Windows 10 when it ships) Hyper-V users. I've got the guts of it working but it's not point-and-click and PowerShell-automated and end-user documented. Right now it's a lot easier to just download the Boot2Docker / VirtualBox installer, click the icon and type docker run -d in the hideous console it provides. ___ cloud mailing list cloud@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/cloud Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Starting the Talking Points for F22
On Tue, Apr 07, 2015 at 10:40:48AM -0700, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote: My own use case (planned - not sure it will be done by F22 release) is deploying web apps as Fedora Docker images to Windows 8.1 (and Windows 10 when it ships) Hyper-V users. I've got the guts of it working but it's not point-and-click and PowerShell-automated and end-user documented. Right now it's a lot easier to just download the Boot2Docker / VirtualBox installer, click the icon and type docker run -d in the hideous console it provides. That's pretty nifty, and I think fits with our overall Fedora-for-developers story. Because as much as we'd like to get all software devs running Fedora on their desktops, a lot, lot more are running Windows. So, whichever way we can get in, we should. -- Matthew Miller mat...@fedoraproject.org Fedora Project Leader ___ cloud mailing list cloud@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/cloud Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Starting the Talking Points for F22
Hey all, Have put up the page for talking points for this release: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_22_talking_points What we want to get to is a coherent story for Fedora 22 so marketing can weave that into the beta and final announcements, plus Ambassadors can use the talking points when they're at events (etc.), and for anybody who's talking to press about the F22 release. Cross-posting to working group lists to get feedback on the Cloud, Server, and Workstation editions. Best, jzb -- Joe Brockmeier | Principal Cloud Storage Analyst j...@redhat.com | http://community.redhat.com/ Twitter: @jzb | http://dissociatedpress.net/ signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ cloud mailing list cloud@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/cloud Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
