Re: Stus-List Battery power

[Jim Watts via CnC-List]

One way to make your batteries last longer and still guarantee starting in
the morning is to go to a dedicated start battery and combine the existing
pair into one house bank. Your depth of discharge will be much less for a
given draw, so the house batteries last much longer, and if you wire it
right you will never draw your starting battery down. I have 3 Group 31's
in my house bank (345 AH) and a Group 24 starting battery. The starting
battery dates from the purchase of the boat, so 12 years; it's time to
replace it.

Jim Watts
Paradigm Shift
C 35 Mk III
Victoria, BC

On 12 February 2018 at 20:23, Marek Dziedzic via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> One thing that should not be overlooked is that your big alternator could
> hardly ever be used at full power. Your batteries won’t absorb even half of
> that in the last 20% of the charging capacity. Since you have solar, you
> can use it for long (and slow) final charging. Also, your alternator may
> quite easily overheat if used at full power over longer time and without
> good cooling.
>
>
>
> I might be stating the obvious, but if you don’t have the time or capacity
> to fully charge your batteries, you should really consider that what you
> have available is roughly 30% of your (current or real (vs. the nominal))
> battery capacity (between 50% and 80% of SOC).
>
>
>
> Another obvious thing is to make sure that for a large capacity alternator
> you have an external regulator with proper temperature sending and that
> your v-belt can drive it (serpentine or double).
>
>
>
> Just a few thoughts
>
>
>
> Marek
>
> 1994 C270 “legato”
>
> Ottawa
>
>
>
> Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
> Windows 10
>
>
>
> *From: *Josh Muckley via CnC-List <cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
> *Sent: *Monday, February 12, 2018 17:44
> *To: *C List <cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
> *Cc: *Josh Muckley <muckl...@gmail.com>
> *Subject: *Re: Stus-List Battery power
>
>
>
> First, I completely agree with everyone else about amp hours and meters
> and the sort.
>
>
>
> But
>
>
>
> Just looking at the voltage, the easiest way is to think of the available
> capacity as 1 volt from 11.7v to 12.7v.  Each 0.1 (tenth) of a volt is
> roughly equal to 10% of usable capacity.
>
>
>
> *Long winded explanation:*
>
> This is actually pretty conservative since minimum voltage of a dead
> battery is 10.5v (0%)  Full is 12.7v (100%).  A difference of 2.2v battery
> service life (think warranty or years before replacement) decreases
> exponentially the further discharged you get.  Normally a service life
> measurement is based on 50% discharge cycles.  Imagine that the battery is
> rated for 200 cycles @ 50% for its entire life.  That number might drop to
> 100 cycles @ 70%, and increase to 400 @ 20%.  Because of all of this, *the
> typical recommendation is to minimize depth of discharge overall but to
> absolutely avoid discharging deeper than 50%*.  Using the assumption of a
> linear relationship of 2.2v between 0% and 100% we can extrapolate that our
> 50% minimum to 100% is equal to 1.1v.  Since its just easier to say one
> volt, and 12.7v is easy to associate with 11.7v.  I come full circle to the
> 10% = 0.1v.
>
>
>
> Did I explain that well enough?
>
>
>
> Josh Muckley
>
> S/V Sea Hawk
>
> 1989 C 37+
>
> Solomons, MD
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Feb 12, 2018 3:02 PM, "David Knecht via CnC-List" <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
> This discussion raises an issue I have struggled with as I have started
> cruising more: deciding how much battery power I have.   I have 2 AGM
> batteries, one house, one starting and a panel voltmeter for monitoring.
> My batteries are now separated so I no longer have to worry about being
> able to start the engine if I run the house too low. The fridge is the only
> major power draw, so I usually am just conservative, running it only
> periodically to make sure I don’t overdraw the battery.  So what is the
> most efficient way to figure out how much I can safely run the fridge?  If
> I just watch the voltage, how do I decide if I can leave the fridge on
> overnight?  Dave
>
>
>
> Aries
>
> 1990 C 34+
>
> New London, CT
>
>
> pastedGraphic.tiff
>
>
>
> On Feb 12, 2018, at 2:33 PM, Josh Muckley via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Much of your problem is a matter of battery capacity as much as a matter
> of charging capacity.  I have ~450 Ah of capacity on one bank, a 90 Amp
> alternator that never reaches full load, and 200 watts of solar.  Even
> without the solar I was abl

Re: Stus-List Battery power

[Marek Dziedzic via CnC-List]

One thing that should not be overlooked is that your big alternator could 
hardly ever be used at full power. Your batteries won’t absorb even half of 
that in the last 20% of the charging capacity. Since you have solar, you can 
use it for long (and slow) final charging. Also, your alternator may quite 
easily overheat if used at full power over longer time and without good cooling.

I might be stating the obvious, but if you don’t have the time or capacity to 
fully charge your batteries, you should really consider that what you have 
available is roughly 30% of your (current or real (vs. the nominal)) battery 
capacity (between 50% and 80% of SOC).

Another obvious thing is to make sure that for a large capacity alternator you 
have an external regulator with proper temperature sending and that your v-belt 
can drive it (serpentine or double).

Just a few thoughts

Marek
1994 C270 “legato”
Ottawa

Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10

From: Josh Muckley via CnC-List<mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 17:44
To: C List<mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
Cc: Josh Muckley<mailto:muckl...@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Stus-List Battery power

First, I completely agree with everyone else about amp hours and meters and the 
sort.

But

Just looking at the voltage, the easiest way is to think of the available 
capacity as 1 volt from 11.7v to 12.7v.  Each 0.1 (tenth) of a volt is roughly 
equal to 10% of usable capacity.

Long winded explanation:
This is actually pretty conservative since minimum voltage of a dead battery is 
10.5v (0%)  Full is 12.7v (100%).  A difference of 2.2v battery service life 
(think warranty or years before replacement) decreases exponentially the 
further discharged you get.  Normally a service life measurement is based on 
50% discharge cycles.  Imagine that the battery is rated for 200 cycles @ 50% 
for its entire life.  That number might drop to 100 cycles @ 70%, and increase 
to 400 @ 20%.  Because of all of this, the typical recommendation is to 
minimize depth of discharge overall but to absolutely avoid discharging deeper 
than 50%.  Using the assumption of a linear relationship of 2.2v between 0% and 
100% we can extrapolate that our 50% minimum to 100% is equal to 1.1v.  Since 
its just easier to say one volt, and 12.7v is easy to associate with 11.7v.  I 
come full circle to the 10% = 0.1v.

Did I explain that well enough?

Josh Muckley
S/V Sea Hawk
1989 C 37+
Solomons, MD



On Feb 12, 2018 3:02 PM, "David Knecht via CnC-List" 
<cnc-list@cnc-list.com<mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:
This discussion raises an issue I have struggled with as I have started 
cruising more: deciding how much battery power I have.   I have 2 AGM 
batteries, one house, one starting and a panel voltmeter for monitoring.  My 
batteries are now separated so I no longer have to worry about being able to 
start the engine if I run the house too low. The fridge is the only major power 
draw, so I usually am just conservative, running it only periodically to make 
sure I don’t overdraw the battery.  So what is the most efficient way to figure 
out how much I can safely run the fridge?  If I just watch the voltage, how do 
I decide if I can leave the fridge on overnight?  Dave

Aries
1990 C 34+
New London, CT

pastedGraphic.tiff

On Feb 12, 2018, at 2:33 PM, Josh Muckley via CnC-List 
<cnc-list@cnc-list.com<mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:

Much of your problem is a matter of battery capacity as much as a matter of 
charging capacity.  I have ~450 Ah of capacity on one bank, a 90 Amp alternator 
that never reaches full load, and 200 watts of solar.  Even without the solar I 
was able to comfortably keep the the fridge running and the lights on when 
cruising for ~2 weeks.  The half hour to hour of engine operation to anchor or 
moore in the evening and the same in the morning was always enough to keep the 
batteries charged.

Keep in mind that the battery capacity should be at least 4x of the charge 
capacity for flooded lead acid and at least 2x for AGM.  So a 400 Ah or 200 Ah 
respectively for a 100 amp alternator.

Josh Muckley
S/V Sea Hawk
1989 C 37+
Solomons, MD


On Mon, Feb 12, 2018, 12:55 PM Damian Greene via CnC-List 
<cnc-list@cnc-list.com<mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:
A question for your collective wisdom:

I am scoping out upgrading my stock 55A alternator to a 100A Balmar, and 
related upgrades to the controls. I had a very productive discussion with Rod 
Collins at Compass Marine (mainesail), and we worked out the details. 
Unfortunately he's booked out through the spring, so this job will wait until 
next winter.

So thinking then about keeping the batteries charged, and the fridge running on 
our long summer cruise - where we may go for weeks without access to shore 
power, I got wondering about using a portable generator to charge 

Re: Stus-List Battery power

[Frederick G Street via CnC-List]

Not as far as inverter control, it’s manufacturer-specific; Heart Interface 
became Xantrex years ago.

— Fred

Fred Street -- Minneapolis
S/V Oceanis (1979 C Landfall 38) -- on the hard in Bayfield, WI   :^(

> On Feb 12, 2018, at 4:50 PM, svrebeccaleah via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
> Fred, will the link 2000 work on a Prosine 2.5 inverter/charger? 
> 
> Doug Mountjoy 
> Rebecca Leah 
> LF39 
> POYC 

___

Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use PayPal 
to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

Re: Stus-List Battery power

[Bruce Whitmore via CnC-List]

Not only explained simply, it's memorable. 

Thanks Josh, 
 Bruce Whitmore

(847) 404-5092 (mobile)
bwhitm...@sbcglobal.net


  From: Josh Muckley via CnC-List <cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
 To: C List <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
Cc: Josh Muckley <muckl...@gmail.com>
 Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 5:44 PM
 Subject: Re: Stus-List Battery power
   
First, I completely agree with everyone else about amp hours and meters and the 
sort.
But
Just looking at the voltage, the easiest way is to think of the available 
capacity as 1 volt from 11.7v to 12.7v.  Each 0.1 (tenth) of a volt is roughly 
equal to 10% of usable capacity.
Long winded explanation:This is actually pretty conservative since minimum 
voltage of a dead battery is 10.5v (0%)  Full is 12.7v (100%).  A difference of 
2.2v battery service life (think warranty or years before replacement) 
decreases exponentially the further discharged you get.  Normally a service 
life measurement is based on 50% discharge cycles.  Imagine that the battery is 
rated for 200 cycles @ 50% for its entire life.  That number might drop to 100 
cycles @ 70%, and increase to 400 @ 20%.  Because of all of this, the typical 
recommendation is to minimize depth of discharge overall but to absolutely 
avoid discharging deeper than 50%.  Using the assumption of a linear 
relationship of 2.2v between 0% and 100% we can extrapolate that our 50% 
minimum to 100% is equal to 1.1v.  Since its just easier to say one volt, and 
12.7v is easy to associate with 11.7v.  I come full circle to the 10% = 0.1v.
Did I explain that well enough?
Josh MuckleyS/V Sea Hawk 1989 C 37+Solomons, MD


On Feb 12, 2018 3:02 PM, "David Knecht via CnC-List" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
wrote:

This discussion raises an issue I have struggled with as I have started 
cruising more: deciding how much battery power I have.   I have 2 AGM 
batteries, one house, one starting and a panel voltmeter for monitoring.  My 
batteries are now separated so I no longer have to worry about being able to 
start the engine if I run the house too low. The fridge is the only major power 
draw, so I usually am just conservative, running it only periodically to make 
sure I don’t overdraw the battery.  So what is the most efficient way to figure 
out how much I can safely run the fridge?  If I just watch the voltage, how do 
I decide if I can leave the fridge on overnight?  Dave
Aries1990 C 34+New London, CT


On Feb 12, 2018, at 2:33 PM, Josh Muckley via CnC-List <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
wrote:
Much of your problem is a matter of battery capacity as much as a matter of 
charging capacity.  I have ~450 Ah of capacity on one bank, a 90 Amp alternator 
that never reaches full load, and 200 watts of solar.  Even without the solar I 
was able to comfortably keep the the fridge running and the lights on when 
cruising for ~2 weeks.  The half hour to hour of engine operation to anchor or 
moore in the evening and the same in the morning was always enough to keep the 
batteries charged.  
Keep in mind that the battery capacity should be at least 4x of the charge 
capacity for flooded lead acid and at least 2x for AGM.  So a 400 Ah or 200 Ah 
respectively for a 100 amp alternator.
Josh MuckleyS/V Sea Hawk 1989 C 37+Solomons, MD 


On Mon, Feb 12, 2018, 12:55 PM Damian Greene via CnC-List 
<cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

A question for your collective wisdom:
I am scoping out upgrading my stock 55A alternator to a 100A Balmar, and 
related upgrades to the controls. I had a very productive discussion with Rod 
Collins at Compass Marine (mainesail), and we worked out the details. 
Unfortunately he's booked out through the spring, so this job will wait until 
next winter.
So thinking then about keeping the batteries charged, and the fridge running on 
our long summer cruise - where we may go for weeks without access to shore 
power, I got wondering about using a portable generator to charge the batteries 
- as an alternative to many hours of running the diesel. There are a couple of 
Hondas that might do the trick 2000 Watt, weighing 47#, 1000 Watt weighing 29#.
Have any of you tried this? What could (would) go wrong if I plugged this 
generator into my inverter, to charge the batteries?
Regards,
Damian
1986 Sabre 38 FreefallPreviously 1984 C 34 GhostBass Harbor, 
Maine__ _

Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use PayPal 
to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/ stumurray


__ _

Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use PayPal 
to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/ stumurray




__ _

Thanks everyone for supporting this list

Re: Stus-List Battery power

[svrebeccaleah via CnC-List]

Fred, will the link 2000 work on a Prosine 2.5 inverter/charger? 
Doug Mountjoy Rebecca Leah LF39 POYC 


Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device
 Original message From: Frederick G Street via CnC-List 
<cnc-list@cnc-list.com> Date: 2/12/18  12:39  (GMT-08:00) To: 
cnc-list@cnc-list.com Cc: Frederick G Street <f...@postaudio.net> Subject: Re: 
Stus-List Battery power 
If you don’t have a Xantrex charger/inverter, I’d suggest the Xantrex LinkPRO 
instead of the Link 2000:
http://www.xantrex.com/power-products/power-accessories/linkpro-battery-monitor.aspx
It’s very reasonably priced (around $250.00 for the two-bank monitor), and made 
for standalone operation.
— Fred


Fred Street -- Minneapolis
S/V Oceanis (1979 C Landfall 38) -- on the hard in Bayfield, WI   :^(


On Feb 12, 2018, at 2:23 PM, Edd Schillay via CnC-List <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
wrote:
David,
While there are calculations you can use, rate of battery discharge is also 
affected by battery age and temperature. 
And, since I’m really, really good at spending other people’s money, I’d 
suggest installing a Battery Monitoring System: 
https://www.defender.com/product3.jsp?path=-1%7C328%7C2289954%7C2289950=1130644
  
I have a similar system on the Enterprise — A Heart Interface Link 2000. See 
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Xantrex-Heart-Interface-Link-2000-Complete/132499499047?_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIM.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160908110712%26meid%3Dfe0fb3de9f6c425585c79ccae997251d%26pid%3D100677%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D4%26sd%3D302615330618%26itm%3D132499499047&_trksid=p2385738.c100677.m4598
 Properly installed and programed, you can see how much time you have left on 
your house bank with the draw you are using at any given time. 

All the best,
Edd

Edd M. SchillayStarship EnterpriseC 37+ | Sail No: NCC-1701-BCity Island, NY 
Starship Enterprise's Captain's Log
___

Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use PayPal 
to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

Re: Stus-List Battery power

[Josh Muckley via CnC-List]

First, I completely agree with everyone else about amp hours and meters and
the sort.

But

Just looking at the voltage, the easiest way is to think of the available
capacity as 1 volt from 11.7v to 12.7v.  Each 0.1 (tenth) of a volt is
roughly equal to 10% of usable capacity.

*Long winded explanation:*
This is actually pretty conservative since minimum voltage of a dead
battery is 10.5v (0%)  Full is 12.7v (100%).  A difference of 2.2v battery
service life (think warranty or years before replacement) decreases
exponentially the further discharged you get.  Normally a service life
measurement is based on 50% discharge cycles.  Imagine that the battery is
rated for 200 cycles @ 50% for its entire life.  That number might drop to
100 cycles @ 70%, and increase to 400 @ 20%.  Because of all of this, *the
typical recommendation is to minimize depth of discharge overall but to
absolutely avoid discharging deeper than 50%*.  Using the assumption of a
linear relationship of 2.2v between 0% and 100% we can extrapolate that our
50% minimum to 100% is equal to 1.1v.  Since its just easier to say one
volt, and 12.7v is easy to associate with 11.7v.  I come full circle to the
10% = 0.1v.

Did I explain that well enough?

Josh Muckley
S/V Sea Hawk
1989 C 37+
Solomons, MD



On Feb 12, 2018 3:02 PM, "David Knecht via CnC-List" 
wrote:

> This discussion raises an issue I have struggled with as I have started
> cruising more: deciding how much battery power I have.   I have 2 AGM
> batteries, one house, one starting and a panel voltmeter for monitoring.
> My batteries are now separated so I no longer have to worry about being
> able to start the engine if I run the house too low. The fridge is the only
> major power draw, so I usually am just conservative, running it only
> periodically to make sure I don’t overdraw the battery.  So what is the
> most efficient way to figure out how much I can safely run the fridge?  If
> I just watch the voltage, how do I decide if I can leave the fridge on
> overnight?  Dave
>
> Aries
> 1990 C 34+
> New London, CT
>
>
> On Feb 12, 2018, at 2:33 PM, Josh Muckley via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
> Much of your problem is a matter of battery capacity as much as a matter
> of charging capacity.  I have ~450 Ah of capacity on one bank, a 90 Amp
> alternator that never reaches full load, and 200 watts of solar.  Even
> without the solar I was able to comfortably keep the the fridge running and
> the lights on when cruising for ~2 weeks.  The half hour to hour of engine
> operation to anchor or moore in the evening and the same in the morning was
> always enough to keep the batteries charged.
>
> Keep in mind that the battery capacity should be at least 4x of the charge
> capacity for flooded lead acid and at least 2x for AGM.  So a 400 Ah or 200
> Ah respectively for a 100 amp alternator.
>
> Josh Muckley
> S/V Sea Hawk
> 1989 C 37+
> Solomons, MD
>
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018, 12:55 PM Damian Greene via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
>> A question for your collective wisdom:
>>
>> I am scoping out upgrading my stock 55A alternator to a 100A Balmar, and
>> related upgrades to the controls. I had a very productive discussion with
>> Rod Collins at Compass Marine (mainesail), and we worked out the details.
>> Unfortunately he's booked out through the spring, so this job will wait
>> until next winter.
>>
>> So thinking then about keeping the batteries charged, and the fridge
>> running on our long summer cruise - where we may go for weeks without
>> access to shore power, I got wondering about using a portable generator to
>> charge the batteries - as an alternative to many hours of running the
>> diesel. There are a couple of Hondas that might do the trick 2000 Watt,
>> weighing 47#, 1000 Watt weighing 29#.
>>
>> Have any of you tried this? What could (would) go wrong if I plugged this
>> generator into my inverter, to charge the batteries?
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Damian
>>
>> 1986 Sabre 38 Freefall
>> Previously 1984 C 34 Ghost
>> Bass Harbor, Maine
>> ___
>>
>> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each
>> and every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list -
>> use PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>>
>> ___
>
> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each
> and every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list -
> use PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>
>
>
> ___
>
> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each
> and every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list -
> use PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>
>
>
___

Thanks everyone for 

Re: Stus-List Battery power

[Edd Schillay via CnC-List]

David,

I don’t know much about the LinkPro, so I can’t say how it shows you data (but 
I bet Street-Smarts Fred Street can.)

On my Link 2000, it shows me time left at the current draw. For example, if I 
put on my cabin LEDs, it shows 250 hours. When I put on my running lights, I’ll 
see 230 hours and so on. I would imagine running my fridge would really take 
that down. As a personal general rule, I never want my batteries to drop below 
50%. 

I do not have to know the the draw of specific items. The key is in 
installation (placement of the shunt.) 

All the best,

Edd


Edd M. Schillay
Starship Enterprise
C 37+ | Sail No: NCC-1701-B
City Island, NY 
Starship Enterprise's Captain's Log 






> On Feb 12, 2018, at 4:24 PM, David Knecht via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi Edd- I have considered one of those devices, but it seems you have to 
> still have to know the rate of draw of the refridgerator,fans,lights and what 
> is the acceptable lowest voltage/charge of the house battery.  I guess that 
> device will tell you the rate of draw in amps.  If I know those parameters, 
> it seems to me it should be just as good to look at the voltage in the 
> evening and know that you do or do not need to charge the battery before 
> going to bed or turn off the fridge.  So I guess the question is:
> 1.  What is the lowest voltage you can safely let your house battery get to?
> 2.  How would you measure the overnight draw on the battery if power is left 
> on to fans +fridge + lights to prevent going lower than that battery voltage 
> given that the fridge draw is not continuous.  
> Dave
> 
>> On Feb 12, 2018, at 3:23 PM, Edd Schillay via CnC-List 
>> > wrote:
>> 
>> David,
>> 
>> While there are calculations you can use, rate of battery discharge is also 
>> affected by battery age and temperature. 
>> 
>> And, since I’m really, really good at spending other people’s money, I’d 
>> suggest installing a Battery Monitoring System: 
>> https://www.defender.com/product3.jsp?path=-1%7C328%7C2289954%7C2289950=1130644
>>  
>> 
>>   
>> 
>> I have a similar system on the Enterprise — A Heart Interface Link 2000. See 
>> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Xantrex-Heart-Interface-Link-2000-Complete/132499499047?_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIM.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160908110712%26meid%3Dfe0fb3de9f6c425585c79ccae997251d%26pid%3D100677%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D4%26sd%3D302615330618%26itm%3D132499499047&_trksid=p2385738.c100677.m4598
>>  
>> 
>>  Properly installed and programed, you can see how much time you have left 
>> on your house bank with the draw you are using at any given time. 
>> 
>> All the best,
>> 
>> Edd
>> 
>> 
>> Edd M. Schillay
>> Starship Enterprise
>> C 37+ | Sail No: NCC-1701-B
>> City Island, NY 
>> Starship Enterprise's Captain's Log 
>> 
>> 
>>  
>>> 
>>> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 3:01 PM, David Knecht via CnC-List 
>>> > wrote:
>>> This discussion raises an issue I have struggled with as I have started 
>>> cruising more: deciding how much battery power I have.   I have 2 AGM 
>>> batteries, one house, one starting and a panel voltmeter for monitoring.  
>>> My batteries are now separated so I no longer have to worry about being 
>>> able to start the engine if I run the house too low. The fridge is the only 
>>> major power draw, so I usually am just conservative, running it only 
>>> periodically to make sure I don’t overdraw the battery.  So what is the 
>>> most efficient way to figure out how much I can safely run the fridge?  If 
>>> I just watch the voltage, how do I decide if I can leave the fridge on 
>>> overnight?  Dave
>>> 
>>> Aries
>>> 1990 C 34+
>>> New London, CT
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
 On Feb 12, 2018, at 2:33 PM, Josh Muckley via CnC-List 
 > wrote:
 
 Much of your problem is a matter of battery capacity as much as a matter 
 of charging capacity.  I have ~450 Ah of capacity on one bank, a 90 Amp 
 alternator that never reaches full load, and 200 watts of solar.  Even 
 without the solar I was able to comfortably keep the the fridge running 
 and the lights on when cruising for ~2 weeks.  The half hour to hour of 
 engine operation to anchor or moore in the evening and the same in the 
 morning was always enough to keep the batteries charged.  
 
 Keep in mind that the battery capacity should be at least 4x of the charge 
 capacity for flooded lead acid and at least 2x for AGM.  So a 400 Ah or 
 200 Ah 

Re: Stus-List Battery power

[Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List]

If you use more than 50% of the battery, the lifespan drops but you also get 
more AH per $. Solar energy studies showed the best cost per AH came in at 
using cheap golf cart batteries and running them very hard – up to 80%C. I use 
gels that last longer and cost way more. They die very fast when charged wrong, 
but deep cycling is OK with them.
Joe
Coquina


From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of David Knecht 
via CnC-List
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 4:24 PM
To: CnC CnC discussion list
Cc: David Knecht
Subject: Re: Stus-List Battery power

Hi Edd- I have considered one of those devices, but it seems you have to still 
have to know the rate of draw of the refridgerator,fans,lights and what is the 
acceptable lowest voltage/charge of the house battery.  I guess that device 
will tell you the rate of draw in amps.  If I know those parameters, it seems 
to me it should be just as good to look at the voltage in the evening and know 
that you do or do not need to charge the battery before going to bed or turn 
off the fridge.  So I guess the question is:
1.  What is the lowest voltage you can safely let your house battery get to?
2.  How would you measure the overnight draw on the battery if power is left on 
to fans +fridge + lights to prevent going lower than that battery voltage given 
that the fridge draw is not continuous.
Dave

On Feb 12, 2018, at 3:23 PM, Edd Schillay via CnC-List 
<cnc-list@cnc-list.com<mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:

David,

While there are calculations you can use, rate of battery discharge is also 
affected by battery age and temperature.

And, since I’m really, really good at spending other people’s money, I’d 
suggest installing a Battery Monitoring System: 
https://www.defender.com/product3.jsp?path=-1%7C328%7C2289954%7C2289950=1130644<https://www.defender.com/product3.jsp?path=-1|328|2289954|2289950=1130644>

I have a similar system on the Enterprise — A Heart Interface Link 2000. See 
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Xantrex-Heart-Interface-Link-2000-Complete/132499499047?_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIM.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160908110712%26meid%3Dfe0fb3de9f6c425585c79ccae997251d%26pid%3D100677%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D4%26sd%3D302615330618%26itm%3D132499499047&_trksid=p2385738.c100677.m4598<https://www.ebay.com/itm/Xantrex-Heart-Interface-Link-2000-Complete/132499499047?_trkparms=aid=222007=SIM.MBE=1=20160908110712=fe0fb3de9f6c425585c79ccae997251d=100677=1=4=302615330618=132499499047&_trksid=p2385738.c100677.m4598>
 Properly installed and programed, you can see how much time you have left on 
your house bank with the draw you are using at any given time.

All the best,

Edd


Edd M. Schillay
Starship Enterprise
C 37+ | Sail No: NCC-1701-B
City Island, NY
Starship Enterprise's Captain's Log<http://enterpriseb.blogspot.com/>




On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 3:01 PM, David Knecht via CnC-List 
<cnc-list@cnc-list.com<mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:
This discussion raises an issue I have struggled with as I have started 
cruising more: deciding how much battery power I have.   I have 2 AGM 
batteries, one house, one starting and a panel voltmeter for monitoring.  My 
batteries are now separated so I no longer have to worry about being able to 
start the engine if I run the house too low. The fridge is the only major power 
draw, so I usually am just conservative, running it only periodically to make 
sure I don’t overdraw the battery.  So what is the most efficient way to figure 
out how much I can safely run the fridge?  If I just watch the voltage, how do 
I decide if I can leave the fridge on overnight?  Dave

Aries
1990 C 34+
New London, CT



On Feb 12, 2018, at 2:33 PM, Josh Muckley via CnC-List 
<cnc-list@cnc-list.com<mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:

Much of your problem is a matter of battery capacity as much as a matter of 
charging capacity.  I have ~450 Ah of capacity on one bank, a 90 Amp alternator 
that never reaches full load, and 200 watts of solar.  Even without the solar I 
was able to comfortably keep the the fridge running and the lights on when 
cruising for ~2 weeks.  The half hour to hour of engine operation to anchor or 
moore in the evening and the same in the morning was always enough to keep the 
batteries charged.

Keep in mind that the battery capacity should be at least 4x of the charge 
capacity for flooded lead acid and at least 2x for AGM.  So a 400 Ah or 200 Ah 
respectively for a 100 amp alternator.

Josh Muckley
S/V Sea Hawk
1989 C 37+
Solomons, MD


On Mon, Feb 12, 2018, 12:55 PM Damian Greene via CnC-List 
<cnc-list@cnc-list.com<mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:
A question for your collective wisdom:

I am scoping out upgrading my stock 55A alternator to a 100A Balmar, and 
related upgrades to the controls. I had a very productive discussion with Rod 
Collins at Compass Marine (mainesail), and we worked out the details. 
Unfortuna

Re: Stus-List Battery power

[David Knecht via CnC-List]

Hi Edd- I have considered one of those devices, but it seems you have to still 
have to know the rate of draw of the refridgerator,fans,lights and what is the 
acceptable lowest voltage/charge of the house battery.  I guess that device 
will tell you the rate of draw in amps.  If I know those parameters, it seems 
to me it should be just as good to look at the voltage in the evening and know 
that you do or do not need to charge the battery before going to bed or turn 
off the fridge.  So I guess the question is:
1.  What is the lowest voltage you can safely let your house battery get to?
2.  How would you measure the overnight draw on the battery if power is left on 
to fans +fridge + lights to prevent going lower than that battery voltage given 
that the fridge draw is not continuous.  
Dave

> On Feb 12, 2018, at 3:23 PM, Edd Schillay via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
> David,
> 
> While there are calculations you can use, rate of battery discharge is also 
> affected by battery age and temperature. 
> 
> And, since I’m really, really good at spending other people’s money, I’d 
> suggest installing a Battery Monitoring System: 
> https://www.defender.com/product3.jsp?path=-1%7C328%7C2289954%7C2289950=1130644
>  
> 
>   
> 
> I have a similar system on the Enterprise — A Heart Interface Link 2000. See 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Xantrex-Heart-Interface-Link-2000-Complete/132499499047?_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIM.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160908110712%26meid%3Dfe0fb3de9f6c425585c79ccae997251d%26pid%3D100677%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D4%26sd%3D302615330618%26itm%3D132499499047&_trksid=p2385738.c100677.m4598
>  
> 
>  Properly installed and programed, you can see how much time you have left on 
> your house bank with the draw you are using at any given time. 
> 
> All the best,
> 
> Edd
> 
> 
> Edd M. Schillay
> Starship Enterprise
> C 37+ | Sail No: NCC-1701-B
> City Island, NY 
> Starship Enterprise's Captain's Log 
> 
> 
>   
>> 
>> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 3:01 PM, David Knecht via CnC-List 
>> > wrote:
>> This discussion raises an issue I have struggled with as I have started 
>> cruising more: deciding how much battery power I have.   I have 2 AGM 
>> batteries, one house, one starting and a panel voltmeter for monitoring.  My 
>> batteries are now separated so I no longer have to worry about being able to 
>> start the engine if I run the house too low. The fridge is the only major 
>> power draw, so I usually am just conservative, running it only periodically 
>> to make sure I don’t overdraw the battery.  So what is the most efficient 
>> way to figure out how much I can safely run the fridge?  If I just watch the 
>> voltage, how do I decide if I can leave the fridge on overnight?  Dave
>> 
>> Aries
>> 1990 C 34+
>> New London, CT
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Feb 12, 2018, at 2:33 PM, Josh Muckley via CnC-List 
>>> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> Much of your problem is a matter of battery capacity as much as a matter of 
>>> charging capacity.  I have ~450 Ah of capacity on one bank, a 90 Amp 
>>> alternator that never reaches full load, and 200 watts of solar.  Even 
>>> without the solar I was able to comfortably keep the the fridge running and 
>>> the lights on when cruising for ~2 weeks.  The half hour to hour of engine 
>>> operation to anchor or moore in the evening and the same in the morning was 
>>> always enough to keep the batteries charged.  
>>> 
>>> Keep in mind that the battery capacity should be at least 4x of the charge 
>>> capacity for flooded lead acid and at least 2x for AGM.  So a 400 Ah or 200 
>>> Ah respectively for a 100 amp alternator.
>>> 
>>> Josh Muckley
>>> S/V Sea Hawk 
>>> 1989 C 37+
>>> Solomons, MD 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018, 12:55 PM Damian Greene via CnC-List 
>>> > wrote:
>>> A question for your collective wisdom:
>>> 
>>> I am scoping out upgrading my stock 55A alternator to a 100A Balmar, and 
>>> related upgrades to the controls. I had a very productive discussion with 
>>> Rod Collins at Compass Marine (mainesail), and we worked out the details. 
>>> Unfortunately he's booked out through the spring, so this job will wait 
>>> until next winter.
>>> 
>>> So thinking then about keeping the batteries charged, and the fridge 
>>> running on our long summer cruise - where we may go for weeks without 
>>> access to shore power, I got wondering about using a portable generator to 
>>> charge the batteries - as an alternative to many hours of running the 
>>> diesel. 

Re: Stus-List Battery power

[Frederick G Street via CnC-List]

If you don’t have a Xantrex charger/inverter, I’d suggest the Xantrex LinkPRO 
instead of the Link 2000:

http://www.xantrex.com/power-products/power-accessories/linkpro-battery-monitor.aspx
 


It’s very reasonably priced (around $250.00 for the two-bank monitor), and made 
for standalone operation.

— Fred

Fred Street -- Minneapolis
S/V Oceanis (1979 C Landfall 38) -- on the hard in Bayfield, WI   :^(

> On Feb 12, 2018, at 2:23 PM, Edd Schillay via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
> David,
> 
> While there are calculations you can use, rate of battery discharge is also 
> affected by battery age and temperature. 
> 
> And, since I’m really, really good at spending other people’s money, I’d 
> suggest installing a Battery Monitoring System: 
> https://www.defender.com/product3.jsp?path=-1%7C328%7C2289954%7C2289950=1130644
>  
> 
>   
> 
> I have a similar system on the Enterprise — A Heart Interface Link 2000. See 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Xantrex-Heart-Interface-Link-2000-Complete/132499499047?_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIM.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160908110712%26meid%3Dfe0fb3de9f6c425585c79ccae997251d%26pid%3D100677%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D4%26sd%3D302615330618%26itm%3D132499499047&_trksid=p2385738.c100677.m4598
>  
> 
>  Properly installed and programed, you can see how much time you have left on 
> your house bank with the draw you are using at any given time. 
> 
> All the best,
> 
> Edd
> 
> 
> Edd M. Schillay
> Starship Enterprise
> C 37+ | Sail No: NCC-1701-B
> City Island, NY 
> Starship Enterprise's Captain's Log 
___

Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use PayPal 
to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

Re: Stus-List Battery power

[Edd Schillay via CnC-List]

David,

While there are calculations you can use, rate of battery discharge is also 
affected by battery age and temperature. 

And, since I’m really, really good at spending other people’s money, I’d 
suggest installing a Battery Monitoring System: 
https://www.defender.com/product3.jsp?path=-1%7C328%7C2289954%7C2289950=1130644
  
 

I have a similar system on the Enterprise — A Heart Interface Link 2000. See 
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Xantrex-Heart-Interface-Link-2000-Complete/132499499047?_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIM.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160908110712%26meid%3Dfe0fb3de9f6c425585c79ccae997251d%26pid%3D100677%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D4%26sd%3D302615330618%26itm%3D132499499047&_trksid=p2385738.c100677.m4598
 

 Properly installed and programed, you can see how much time you have left on 
your house bank with the draw you are using at any given time. 

All the best,

Edd


Edd M. Schillay
Starship Enterprise
C 37+ | Sail No: NCC-1701-B
City Island, NY 
Starship Enterprise's Captain's Log 



> 
> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 3:01 PM, David Knecht via CnC-List 
> > wrote:
> This discussion raises an issue I have struggled with as I have started 
> cruising more: deciding how much battery power I have.   I have 2 AGM 
> batteries, one house, one starting and a panel voltmeter for monitoring.  My 
> batteries are now separated so I no longer have to worry about being able to 
> start the engine if I run the house too low. The fridge is the only major 
> power draw, so I usually am just conservative, running it only periodically 
> to make sure I don’t overdraw the battery.  So what is the most efficient way 
> to figure out how much I can safely run the fridge?  If I just watch the 
> voltage, how do I decide if I can leave the fridge on overnight?  Dave
> 
> Aries
> 1990 C 34+
> New London, CT
> 
> 
> 
>> On Feb 12, 2018, at 2:33 PM, Josh Muckley via CnC-List 
>> > wrote:
>> 
>> Much of your problem is a matter of battery capacity as much as a matter of 
>> charging capacity.  I have ~450 Ah of capacity on one bank, a 90 Amp 
>> alternator that never reaches full load, and 200 watts of solar.  Even 
>> without the solar I was able to comfortably keep the the fridge running and 
>> the lights on when cruising for ~2 weeks.  The half hour to hour of engine 
>> operation to anchor or moore in the evening and the same in the morning was 
>> always enough to keep the batteries charged.  
>> 
>> Keep in mind that the battery capacity should be at least 4x of the charge 
>> capacity for flooded lead acid and at least 2x for AGM.  So a 400 Ah or 200 
>> Ah respectively for a 100 amp alternator.
>> 
>> Josh Muckley
>> S/V Sea Hawk 
>> 1989 C 37+
>> Solomons, MD 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018, 12:55 PM Damian Greene via CnC-List 
>> > wrote:
>> A question for your collective wisdom:
>> 
>> I am scoping out upgrading my stock 55A alternator to a 100A Balmar, and 
>> related upgrades to the controls. I had a very productive discussion with 
>> Rod Collins at Compass Marine (mainesail), and we worked out the details. 
>> Unfortunately he's booked out through the spring, so this job will wait 
>> until next winter.
>> 
>> So thinking then about keeping the batteries charged, and the fridge running 
>> on our long summer cruise - where we may go for weeks without access to 
>> shore power, I got wondering about using a portable generator to charge the 
>> batteries - as an alternative to many hours of running the diesel. There are 
>> a couple of Hondas that might do the trick 2000 Watt, weighing 47#, 1000 
>> Watt weighing 29#.
>> 
>> Have any of you tried this? What could (would) go wrong if I plugged this 
>> generator into my inverter, to charge the batteries?
>> 
>> Regards,
>> 
>> Damian
>> 
>> 1986 Sabre 38 Freefall
>> Previously 1984 C 34 Ghost
>> Bass Harbor, Maine
>> ___
>> 
>> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
>> every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use 
>> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray 
>> 
>> 
>> ___
>> 
>> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
>> every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use 
>> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray 
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> 

Re: Stus-List Battery power

[Joel Aronson via CnC-List]

David,

You need to calculate the amp/hours the fridge uses to know how long you
can run it before drawing your battery below the appropriate SOC.  Even if
its on, its not running all the time.

Somewhere I have a spreadsheet that estimates all of my daily power needs.
Its on a different computer, but if you ping me tomorrow I can email it to
you.

Joel
joel.aron...@gmail.com



Virus-free.
www.avg.com

<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 3:01 PM, David Knecht via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> This discussion raises an issue I have struggled with as I have started
> cruising more: deciding how much battery power I have.   I have 2 AGM
> batteries, one house, one starting and a panel voltmeter for monitoring.
> My batteries are now separated so I no longer have to worry about being
> able to start the engine if I run the house too low. The fridge is the only
> major power draw, so I usually am just conservative, running it only
> periodically to make sure I don’t overdraw the battery.  So what is the
> most efficient way to figure out how much I can safely run the fridge?  If
> I just watch the voltage, how do I decide if I can leave the fridge on
> overnight?  Dave
>
> Aries
> 1990 C 34+
> New London, CT
>
>
> On Feb 12, 2018, at 2:33 PM, Josh Muckley via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
> Much of your problem is a matter of battery capacity as much as a matter
> of charging capacity.  I have ~450 Ah of capacity on one bank, a 90 Amp
> alternator that never reaches full load, and 200 watts of solar.  Even
> without the solar I was able to comfortably keep the the fridge running and
> the lights on when cruising for ~2 weeks.  The half hour to hour of engine
> operation to anchor or moore in the evening and the same in the morning was
> always enough to keep the batteries charged.
>
> Keep in mind that the battery capacity should be at least 4x of the charge
> capacity for flooded lead acid and at least 2x for AGM.  So a 400 Ah or 200
> Ah respectively for a 100 amp alternator.
>
> Josh Muckley
> S/V Sea Hawk
> 1989 C 37+
> Solomons, MD
>
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018, 12:55 PM Damian Greene via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
>> A question for your collective wisdom:
>>
>> I am scoping out upgrading my stock 55A alternator to a 100A Balmar, and
>> related upgrades to the controls. I had a very productive discussion with
>> Rod Collins at Compass Marine (mainesail), and we worked out the details.
>> Unfortunately he's booked out through the spring, so this job will wait
>> until next winter.
>>
>> So thinking then about keeping the batteries charged, and the fridge
>> running on our long summer cruise - where we may go for weeks without
>> access to shore power, I got wondering about using a portable generator to
>> charge the batteries - as an alternative to many hours of running the
>> diesel. There are a couple of Hondas that might do the trick 2000 Watt,
>> weighing 47#, 1000 Watt weighing 29#.
>>
>> Have any of you tried this? What could (would) go wrong if I plugged this
>> generator into my inverter, to charge the batteries?
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Damian
>>
>> 1986 Sabre 38 Freefall
>> Previously 1984 C 34 Ghost
>> Bass Harbor, Maine
>> ___
>>
>> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each
>> and every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list -
>> use PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>>
>> ___
>
> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each
> and every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list -
> use PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>
>
>
> ___
>
> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each
> and every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list -
> use PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>
>
>


-- 
Joel
301 541 8551
___

Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use PayPal 
to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

Re: Stus-List Battery power

[David Knecht via CnC-List]

This discussion raises an issue I have struggled with as I have started 
cruising more: deciding how much battery power I have.   I have 2 AGM 
batteries, one house, one starting and a panel voltmeter for monitoring.  My 
batteries are now separated so I no longer have to worry about being able to 
start the engine if I run the house too low. The fridge is the only major power 
draw, so I usually am just conservative, running it only periodically to make 
sure I don’t overdraw the battery.  So what is the most efficient way to figure 
out how much I can safely run the fridge?  If I just watch the voltage, how do 
I decide if I can leave the fridge on overnight?  Dave

Aries
1990 C 34+
New London, CT



> On Feb 12, 2018, at 2:33 PM, Josh Muckley via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
> Much of your problem is a matter of battery capacity as much as a matter of 
> charging capacity.  I have ~450 Ah of capacity on one bank, a 90 Amp 
> alternator that never reaches full load, and 200 watts of solar.  Even 
> without the solar I was able to comfortably keep the the fridge running and 
> the lights on when cruising for ~2 weeks.  The half hour to hour of engine 
> operation to anchor or moore in the evening and the same in the morning was 
> always enough to keep the batteries charged.  
> 
> Keep in mind that the battery capacity should be at least 4x of the charge 
> capacity for flooded lead acid and at least 2x for AGM.  So a 400 Ah or 200 
> Ah respectively for a 100 amp alternator.
> 
> Josh Muckley
> S/V Sea Hawk 
> 1989 C 37+
> Solomons, MD 
> 
> 
> 
> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018, 12:55 PM Damian Greene via CnC-List 
> > wrote:
> A question for your collective wisdom:
> 
> I am scoping out upgrading my stock 55A alternator to a 100A Balmar, and 
> related upgrades to the controls. I had a very productive discussion with Rod 
> Collins at Compass Marine (mainesail), and we worked out the details. 
> Unfortunately he's booked out through the spring, so this job will wait until 
> next winter.
> 
> So thinking then about keeping the batteries charged, and the fridge running 
> on our long summer cruise - where we may go for weeks without access to shore 
> power, I got wondering about using a portable generator to charge the 
> batteries - as an alternative to many hours of running the diesel. There are 
> a couple of Hondas that might do the trick 2000 Watt, weighing 47#, 1000 Watt 
> weighing 29#.
> 
> Have any of you tried this? What could (would) go wrong if I plugged this 
> generator into my inverter, to charge the batteries?
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Damian
> 
> 1986 Sabre 38 Freefall
> Previously 1984 C 34 Ghost
> Bass Harbor, Maine
> ___
> 
> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
> every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use 
> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray 
> 
> 
> ___
> 
> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
> every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use 
> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
> 

___

Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use PayPal 
to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray