Stus-List Fw: Atomic 4
I'm forwarding this earlier thread with link to stats from USGC on boat accidents. Interesting info there, especially Rick picking out the 1 out of 86 fires occurring in a sailboat. -Original Message- From: Rick Brass Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2014 1:31 PM To: 'Peter Fell' ; cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: RE: Stus-List Atomic 4 Very interesting statistics. Among other things, it seems 7 times as many people died swimming after boats or gear that had drifted away from the dock (see table 3) as had died in fires. Of 86 fires, only one was in a sailboat. As a matter of fact, 60% of all fires happened in open motorboats or jet skis (PWCs). I wonder just how many boats are registered in the US? Maybe 500,000? Call it 250, 000 to be conservative. So the chance of a fire is something like 86/250,000=0.034% For myself, I've always thought the concern over gas power vs. diesel on a sailboat was way overblown. Emotional not logical. And I think it was Danny made the case very well that the DIY installation of a remanufactured A4 for around $4k in one day makes a lot of sense compared to installing a diesel, tank, prop, shaft, wiring, engine panel, etc. for $10-12k. Rick Brass -Original Message- From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Peter Fell Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2014 1:50 PM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Atomic 4 Interesting stats from USCG: http://www.uscgboating.org/statistics/accident_statistics.aspx I haven't read through the entire document but from 2012: Out of 2454 accidents related to operation of vessel, 21 were a caused by failure to ventilate. 0 deaths. Out of 468 accidents related to failure of boat or boat equipment, 12 fuel system failures and 6 ventilation failures. 0 deaths. Out of 694 accidents related to miscellaneous causes, 66 were caused by ignition of fuel or vapor. 1 death. I'm assuming that the miscellaneous category includes ignition of other sources such as propane heating / cooking and perhaps alcohol stoves. If you have a gas outboard on your boat then you already carry gasoline. Given that the tank usually isn't internal but still I think the percentages overall are quite low and of course those stats would include accidents related to outboards, I am fairly sure. When I rebuilt my A4 I replaced the old aluminum fuel tank and all my fuel lines and fittings at the same time since with the engine in-place, the old tank wasn't coming out without some significant surgery. The new tank I can fit through the cockpit locker no problem. I also made sure that the low-oil pressure cut-off switch for the fuel pump was replaced and working and properly fused. The existing switch was not working and had been bypassed!! ... I am pretty sure by a mechanic!! (since the PO did not do any of his own maintenance or repairs). -Original Message- From: OldSteveH Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2014 9:06 AM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Atomic 4 Three years ago I was doing work up my mast about 100 ft away from a 40` wooden Chriscraft which exploded during refuelling. It was shocking and there was no warning for those nearby. My point - it's more than rhetoric or something you only hear about. It can actually happen. Second observation - a friend rebuilt his A4 last winter, reinstalled in the spring and found out his tranny was seized. RR all over again. The message - take the time to go over everything and rebuild/refurbish as necessary. You don't want to take it out twice. Of course same goes for any engine. 3rd - my 3GM will use about 1/4 tank of fuel motoring and motor sailing for 13 hours. How will that compare with gasoline - I think there's a big difference. Not criticizing the idea of keeping an A4, just being aware of some risks and differences. Cheers, Steve Hood S/V Diamond Girl CC 34 Lions Head ON -- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2014 15:26:16 GMT From: djhaug...@juno.com djhaug...@juno.com To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Atomic 4 Message-ID: 20140129.102616.2156...@webmail-beta01.vgs.untd.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Every time someone brings up the A4, the diesel suggestions start to flow. LOL Okay the guy needs a head, he can buy a completely new aftermarket one from Moyer for $450 and be back on the water in, literally hours after receiving it... OOORRR... he can buy a used diesel for $2500 and replace that and all the fuel lines and fuel tank and filters and whatever else for a minimum of another probably $1500 or $2000 in parts and periferals like what prop, shaft, whatever, and install it all himself in, oh i don't know, 2 or 3 weekends... Then there is all the adjustments and testing another weekend at least. What is the gain, It's sail boat, isn't the idea to be sailing and not chugging along under power for days at a time? I mean the diesel
Re: Stus-List Fw: Atomic 4
fascinating link, thanks. But there's a much bigger denominator - 12.5 million boats registered http://www.nmma.org/news.aspx?id=18028 Basic math says we keep making boats, so the water's going to get crowded unless we increase the sinking rate Nate Sarah Jean 1980 30-1 Siskiwit Bay Marina Lake Superior On Tue, Jul 8, 2014 at 1:55 PM, Peter Fell via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: I'm forwarding this earlier thread with link to stats from USGC on boat accidents. Interesting info there, especially Rick picking out the 1 out of 86 fires occurring in a sailboat. -Original Message- From: Rick Brass Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2014 1:31 PM To: 'Peter Fell' ; cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: RE: Stus-List Atomic 4 Very interesting statistics. Among other things, it seems 7 times as many people died swimming after boats or gear that had drifted away from the dock (see table 3) as had died in fires. Of 86 fires, only one was in a sailboat. As a matter of fact, 60% of all fires happened in open motorboats or jet skis (PWCs). I wonder just how many boats are registered in the US? Maybe 500,000? Call it 250, 000 to be conservative. So the chance of a fire is something like 86/250,000=0.034% For myself, I've always thought the concern over gas power vs. diesel on a sailboat was way overblown. Emotional not logical. And I think it was Danny made the case very well that the DIY installation of a remanufactured A4 for around $4k in one day makes a lot of sense compared to installing a diesel, tank, prop, shaft, wiring, engine panel, etc. for $10-12k. Rick Brass -Original Message- From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Peter Fell Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2014 1:50 PM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Atomic 4 Interesting stats from USCG: http://www.uscgboating.org/statistics/accident_statistics.aspx I haven't read through the entire document but from 2012: Out of 2454 accidents related to operation of vessel, 21 were a caused by failure to ventilate. 0 deaths. Out of 468 accidents related to failure of boat or boat equipment, 12 fuel system failures and 6 ventilation failures. 0 deaths. Out of 694 accidents related to miscellaneous causes, 66 were caused by ignition of fuel or vapor. 1 death. I'm assuming that the miscellaneous category includes ignition of other sources such as propane heating / cooking and perhaps alcohol stoves. If you have a gas outboard on your boat then you already carry gasoline. Given that the tank usually isn't internal but still I think the percentages overall are quite low and of course those stats would include accidents related to outboards, I am fairly sure. When I rebuilt my A4 I replaced the old aluminum fuel tank and all my fuel lines and fittings at the same time since with the engine in-place, the old tank wasn't coming out without some significant surgery. The new tank I can fit through the cockpit locker no problem. I also made sure that the low-oil pressure cut-off switch for the fuel pump was replaced and working and properly fused. The existing switch was not working and had been bypassed!! ... I am pretty sure by a mechanic!! (since the PO did not do any of his own maintenance or repairs). -Original Message- From: OldSteveH Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2014 9:06 AM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Atomic 4 Three years ago I was doing work up my mast about 100 ft away from a 40` wooden Chriscraft which exploded during refuelling. It was shocking and there was no warning for those nearby. My point - it's more than rhetoric or something you only hear about. It can actually happen. Second observation - a friend rebuilt his A4 last winter, reinstalled in the spring and found out his tranny was seized. RR all over again. The message - take the time to go over everything and rebuild/refurbish as necessary. You don't want to take it out twice. Of course same goes for any engine. 3rd - my 3GM will use about 1/4 tank of fuel motoring and motor sailing for 13 hours. How will that compare with gasoline - I think there's a big difference. Not criticizing the idea of keeping an A4, just being aware of some risks and differences. Cheers, Steve Hood S/V Diamond Girl CC 34 Lions Head ON -- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2014 15:26:16 GMT From: djhaug...@juno.com djhaug...@juno.com To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Atomic 4 Message-ID: 20140129.102616.2156...@webmail-beta01.vgs.untd.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Every time someone brings up the A4, the diesel suggestions start to flow. LOL Okay the guy needs a head, he can buy a completely new aftermarket one from Moyer for $450 and be back on the water in, literally hours after receiving it... OOORRR... he can buy a used
Re: Stus-List Fw: Atomic 4
Having gone through two A4 rebuilds and then a replacement of A4 with DIY rebuild of westerbeake 4-108, I can say that I do feel safer with diesel under my cockpit, only because I don't have to look for leaks as often. I was comfortable with gasoline because I was aware of what is going on in my engine room. So long as you are aware that you are sitting on a 20 gallon bomb that is waiting to explode at any smallest mishap and you take the preventive actions with that in mind, you are ok. I did have numerous occasions of gasoline leaks, from small plastic inline filters to hoses near clamps/fittings, to gasket on the fuel tank, to fuel pumps, to carburetor, some of them on the high seas, some at the dock. But the most important thing is I would stick my head in the engine room almost daily, and would catch those things almost instantly. I also did have explosive fume detector located directly under the carburetor and my blower was running whenever A4 was on. My sense of smell was also highly tuned to the smell of gasoline. Petar Horvatic Sundowner 76 CC 38MkII Newport, RI -Original Message- From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Peter Fell via CnC-List Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2014 2:56 PM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Stus-List Fw: Atomic 4 I'm forwarding this earlier thread with link to stats from USGC on boat accidents. Interesting info there, especially Rick picking out the 1 out of 86 fires occurring in a sailboat. -Original Message- From: Rick Brass Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2014 1:31 PM To: 'Peter Fell' ; cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: RE: Stus-List Atomic 4 Very interesting statistics. Among other things, it seems 7 times as many people died swimming after boats or gear that had drifted away from the dock (see table 3) as had died in fires. Of 86 fires, only one was in a sailboat. As a matter of fact, 60% of all fires happened in open motorboats or jet skis (PWCs). I wonder just how many boats are registered in the US? Maybe 500,000? Call it 250, 000 to be conservative. So the chance of a fire is something like 86/250,000=0.034% For myself, I've always thought the concern over gas power vs. diesel on a sailboat was way overblown. Emotional not logical. And I think it was Danny made the case very well that the DIY installation of a remanufactured A4 for around $4k in one day makes a lot of sense compared to installing a diesel, tank, prop, shaft, wiring, engine panel, etc. for $10-12k. Rick Brass -Original Message- From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Peter Fell Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2014 1:50 PM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Atomic 4 Interesting stats from USCG: http://www.uscgboating.org/statistics/accident_statistics.aspx I haven't read through the entire document but from 2012: Out of 2454 accidents related to operation of vessel, 21 were a caused by failure to ventilate. 0 deaths. Out of 468 accidents related to failure of boat or boat equipment, 12 fuel system failures and 6 ventilation failures. 0 deaths. Out of 694 accidents related to miscellaneous causes, 66 were caused by ignition of fuel or vapor. 1 death. I'm assuming that the miscellaneous category includes ignition of other sources such as propane heating / cooking and perhaps alcohol stoves. If you have a gas outboard on your boat then you already carry gasoline. Given that the tank usually isn't internal but still I think the percentages overall are quite low and of course those stats would include accidents related to outboards, I am fairly sure. When I rebuilt my A4 I replaced the old aluminum fuel tank and all my fuel lines and fittings at the same time since with the engine in-place, the old tank wasn't coming out without some significant surgery. The new tank I can fit through the cockpit locker no problem. I also made sure that the low-oil pressure cut-off switch for the fuel pump was replaced and working and properly fused. The existing switch was not working and had been bypassed!! ... I am pretty sure by a mechanic!! (since the PO did not do any of his own maintenance or repairs). -Original Message- From: OldSteveH Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2014 9:06 AM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Atomic 4 Three years ago I was doing work up my mast about 100 ft away from a 40` wooden Chriscraft which exploded during refuelling. It was shocking and there was no warning for those nearby. My point - it's more than rhetoric or something you only hear about. It can actually happen. Second observation - a friend rebuilt his A4 last winter, reinstalled in the spring and found out his tranny was seized. RR all over again. The message - take the time to go over everything and rebuild/refurbish as necessary. You don't want to take it out twice. Of course same goes for any engine. 3rd - my 3GM will use about 1/4 tank of fuel motoring and motor sailing
Re: Stus-List Fw: Atomic 4
FWIW I grew up on gas powered fishing boats. The biggest problem we had was the ignition system - a problem largely solved with electronic ignition. We always lifted a hatch to smell for gas and occasionally ran the blower. We never had a problem. That being said, I'm happy to have my Yanmar 30 GMF. At 1800 RPM it burns about 1/3 gallon per hour; at 2500 RPM it burns about 1/2 gallon per hour. When I was boat shopping I only looked at boats with diesels to avoid points, plugs, spark plug wires and all the other things that screwed up fishing trips. It was not a safety issue, but a reliability issue for me. Joel On Tue, Jul 8, 2014 at 3:33 PM, Petar Horvatic via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: Having gone through two A4 rebuilds and then a replacement of A4 with DIY rebuild of westerbeake 4-108, I can say that I do feel safer with diesel under my cockpit, only because I don't have to look for leaks as often. I was comfortable with gasoline because I was aware of what is going on in my engine room. So long as you are aware that you are sitting on a 20 gallon bomb that is waiting to explode at any smallest mishap and you take the preventive actions with that in mind, you are ok. I did have numerous occasions of gasoline leaks, from small plastic inline filters to hoses near clamps/fittings, to gasket on the fuel tank, to fuel pumps, to carburetor, some of them on the high seas, some at the dock. But the most important thing is I would stick my head in the engine room almost daily, and would catch those things almost instantly. I also did have explosive fume detector located directly under the carburetor and my blower was running whenever A4 was on. My sense of smell was also highly tuned to the smell of gasoline. Petar Horvatic Sundowner 76 CC 38MkII Newport, RI -Original Message- From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Peter Fell via CnC-List Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2014 2:56 PM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Stus-List Fw: Atomic 4 I'm forwarding this earlier thread with link to stats from USGC on boat accidents. Interesting info there, especially Rick picking out the 1 out of 86 fires occurring in a sailboat. -Original Message- From: Rick Brass Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2014 1:31 PM To: 'Peter Fell' ; cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: RE: Stus-List Atomic 4 Very interesting statistics. Among other things, it seems 7 times as many people died swimming after boats or gear that had drifted away from the dock (see table 3) as had died in fires. Of 86 fires, only one was in a sailboat. As a matter of fact, 60% of all fires happened in open motorboats or jet skis (PWCs). I wonder just how many boats are registered in the US? Maybe 500,000? Call it 250, 000 to be conservative. So the chance of a fire is something like 86/250,000=0.034% For myself, I've always thought the concern over gas power vs. diesel on a sailboat was way overblown. Emotional not logical. And I think it was Danny made the case very well that the DIY installation of a remanufactured A4 for around $4k in one day makes a lot of sense compared to installing a diesel, tank, prop, shaft, wiring, engine panel, etc. for $10-12k. Rick Brass -Original Message- From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Peter Fell Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2014 1:50 PM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Atomic 4 Interesting stats from USCG: http://www.uscgboating.org/statistics/accident_statistics.aspx I haven't read through the entire document but from 2012: Out of 2454 accidents related to operation of vessel, 21 were a caused by failure to ventilate. 0 deaths. Out of 468 accidents related to failure of boat or boat equipment, 12 fuel system failures and 6 ventilation failures. 0 deaths. Out of 694 accidents related to miscellaneous causes, 66 were caused by ignition of fuel or vapor. 1 death. I'm assuming that the miscellaneous category includes ignition of other sources such as propane heating / cooking and perhaps alcohol stoves. If you have a gas outboard on your boat then you already carry gasoline. Given that the tank usually isn't internal but still I think the percentages overall are quite low and of course those stats would include accidents related to outboards, I am fairly sure. When I rebuilt my A4 I replaced the old aluminum fuel tank and all my fuel lines and fittings at the same time since with the engine in-place, the old tank wasn't coming out without some significant surgery. The new tank I can fit through the cockpit locker no problem. I also made sure that the low-oil pressure cut-off switch for the fuel pump was replaced and working and properly fused. The existing switch was not working and had been bypassed!! ... I am pretty sure by a mechanic!! (since the PO did not do any of his own maintenance or repairs
