Stus-List Racing rules question
I hope some of the racers among the list might want to chime in on the following. Before the start this weekend, 2 boats 'barged' down the line, one immediately to windward and starboard of me (WP) who I protested immediately after the incident, hailed that I(WP) protested him (NC) and flew the red flag. He (NC) did not protest the boat to weather of him until all of us were near the weather mark. Either for that or another technical reason, his (NC) protest was thrown out (details unknown since the protest was not heard at a hearing/meeting as yet) but I was informed of it by his email. My question for the list is the following: AFAIK, I (WP) could not protest any boat except the one nearest to me (NC), which I did. He (NC) protested the boat to his starboard/windward (Q) which he could not take up because that boat (Q) did not yield his position, as he should have. Probably would have forced him over the starting line but immaterial AFAIK. There were no obstructions involved. Am I out of luck since his (the middle boat) protest (NC) was thrown out? I know from a similar past experience when the middle boat did not protest the boat to his starboard/windward side before the start, that he (the middle boat) was exonerated since he was prevented from going up by another boat and did not bother to protest the boat to windward of him. Thus I was 'hosed' since he was exonerated and the real culprit (the boat to his starboard/windward side) got off with no penalty. The current situation is identical except the middle boat (NC) did protest the most windward boat (Q), but his protest was thrown out on a technicality (likely not timely enough). I have an inkling that a BOHICA moment is approaching, as in Bend Over Here It Comes Again!! Charlie Nelson Water Phantom C&C 36 XL/kcb cenel...@aol.com ___ This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Racing rules question
Hi Charlie, I don't know all the details, but assuming you had rights to head up the other boat (the middle one) and you actually attempted to, then what happens between the middle boat and other boats above her is irrelevant. Your protest is valid. As far as I know, the middle boat cannot be exonerated from your protest because the boats or boats above them did not respond. That seems like a judging error to me. Mike Sent wirelessly from my BlackBerry device on the Bell network. Envoyé sans fil par mon terminal mobile BlackBerry sur le réseau de Bell. ___ This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Racing rules question
My understanding - You are not out of luck. NC"s protest was as you say likely thrown out as he did not protest properly in a timely manner (61.1 a). This just prevents NC for being exonerated by the actions/ inactions of Q. NC is still on the hook for fouling you - and unless he did his penalty turns as specified in the Sailing Instructions should be disqualified by the Protest Committee -- Jonathan Indigo C&C 35III SOUTHPORT CT > On Oct 20, 2014, at 10:36, Charlie Nelson via CnC-List > wrote: > > I hope some of the racers among the list might want to chime in on the > following. > > Before the start this weekend, 2 boats 'barged' down the line, one > immediately to windward and starboard of me (WP) who I protested immediately > after the incident, hailed that I(WP) protested him (NC) and flew the red > flag. He (NC) did not protest the boat to weather of him until all of us were > near the weather mark. Either for that or another technical reason, his (NC) > protest was thrown out (details unknown since the protest was not heard at a > hearing/meeting as yet) but I was informed of it by his email. > > My question for the list is the following: > > AFAIK, I (WP) could not protest any boat except the one nearest to me (NC), > which I did. > > He (NC) protested the boat to his starboard/windward (Q) which he could not > take up because that boat (Q) did not yield his position, as he should have. > Probably would have forced him over the starting line but immaterial AFAIK. > There were no obstructions involved. > > Am I out of luck since his (the middle boat) protest (NC) was thrown out? > > I know from a similar past experience when the middle boat did not protest > the boat to his starboard/windward side before the start, that he (the middle > boat) was exonerated since he was prevented from going up by another boat and > did not bother to protest the boat to windward of him. Thus I was 'hosed' > since he was exonerated and the real culprit (the boat to his > starboard/windward side) got off with no penalty. > > The current situation is identical except the middle boat (NC) did protest > the most windward boat (Q), but his protest was thrown out on a technicality > (likely not timely enough). > > I have an inkling that a BOHICA moment is approaching, as in Bend Over Here > It Comes Again!! > > Charlie Nelson > Water Phantom > C&C 36 XL/kcb > > > > > > > > > > cenel...@aol.com > ___ > This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album > > Email address: > CnC-List@cnc-list.com > To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go bottom of page > at: > http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com > ___ This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Racing rules question
Charlie: If NC (the middle boat) cannot head up when you try to take her up, she will be exonerated at your protest hearing if she protested the windward boat at the first reasonable opportunity and she raised her protest flag at the first reasonable opportunity . Otherwise, her protest will not be heard, the windward boat will get off even though she broke a rule, and at your protest hearing, NC should be disqualified. In the past experience that you referred to, the middle boat should have been disqualified, unless she took a two turns penalty. If she didn't do her turns, the protest committee erred by exonerating her. Rule 61 and sub paragraphs of the RRS cover protest requirements. It's always a good idea to protest a boat that has broken a rule, since it might make a difference between exoneration and disqualification. Alan Bergen 35 Mk III Thirsty Rose City YC Portland, OR I hope some of the racers among the list might want to chime in on the following. Before the start this weekend, 2 boats 'barged' down the line, one immediately to windward and starboard of me (WP) who I protested immediately after the incident, hailed that I(WP) protested him (NC) and flew the red flag. He (NC) did not protest the boat to weather of him until all of us were near the weather mark. Either for that or another technical reason, his (NC) protest was thrown out (details unknown since the protest was not heard at a hearing/meeting as yet) but I was informed of it by his email. My question for the list is the following: AFAIK, I (WP) could not protest any boat except the one nearest to me (NC), which I did. He (NC) protested the boat to his starboard/windward (Q) which he could not take up because that boat (Q) did not yield his position, as he should have. Probably would have forced him over the starting line but immaterial AFAIK. There were no obstructions involved. Am I out of luck since his (the middle boat) protest (NC) was thrown out? I know from a similar past experience when the middle boat did not protest the boat to his starboard/windward side before the start, that he (the middle boat) was exonerated since he was prevented from going up by another boat and did not bother to protest the boat to windward of him. Thus I was 'hosed' since he was exonerated and the real culprit (the boat to his starboard/windward side) got off with no penalty. The current situation is identical except the middle boat (NC) did protest the most windward boat (Q), but his protest was thrown out on a technicality (likely not timely enough). I have an inkling that a BOHICA moment is approaching, as in Bend Over Here It Comes Again!! Charlie Nelson Water Phantom C&C 36 XL/kcb ___ This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Racing rules question
That is pretty much my understanding regarding the boat to starboard/windward of me (NC). Unfortuntely, the 'real' culprit in this scenario escapes (Q) without any penalty since the boat able to protest him (NC) screwed up their protest. So NC gets disqualified (because of a technicallity on her protest) and the most culpable boat in this scenario (Q) 'skates' with no penalty! This effectively encourages skippers caught in this 'middle' position to not file a protest. For instance, if NC had not filed, they would have been exonerated, not disqualified, since they were prevented from following the rules by the boat to windward of them. In fact, NC only filed his protest because I told him I was filing against him. I did this in an effort to get the real culprit disqualified (Q). This seems like an area that should be handled differently by the RRS IMHO, at least if I understand the rules correcty. Apparently I can only protest the boat that directly fouled me, even if that boat was acting properly by avoiding a collision with the boat to windward of her. BOHICA Charlie Nelson Water Phantom C&C 36 XL/kcb cenel...@aol.com -Original Message- From: Indigo To: cenelson ; cnc-list Sent: Mon, Oct 20, 2014 11:37 am Subject: Re: Stus-List Racing rules question My understanding - You are not out of luck. NC"s protest was as you say likely thrown out as he did not protest properly in a timely manner (61.1 a). This just prevents NC for being exonerated by the actions/ inactions of Q. NC is still on the hook for fouling you - and unless he did his penalty turns as specified in the Sailing Instructions should be disqualified by the Protest Committee -- Jonathan Indigo C&C 35III SOUTHPORT CT On Oct 20, 2014, at 10:36, Charlie Nelson via CnC-List wrote: I hope some of the racers among the list might want to chime in on the following. Before the start this weekend, 2 boats 'barged' down the line, one immediately to windward and starboard of me (WP) who I protested immediately after the incident, hailed that I(WP) protested him (NC) and flew the red flag. He (NC) did not protest the boat to weather of him until all of us were near the weather mark. Either for that or another technical reason, his (NC) protest was thrown out (details unknown since the protest was not heard at a hearing/meeting as yet) but I was informed of it by his email. My question for the list is the following: AFAIK, I (WP) could not protest any boat except the one nearest to me (NC), which I did. He (NC) protested the boat to his starboard/windward (Q) which he could not take up because that boat (Q) did not yield his position, as he should have. Probably would have forced him over the starting line but immaterial AFAIK. There were no obstructions involved. Am I out of luck since his (the middle boat) protest (NC) was thrown out? I know from a similar past experience when the middle boat did not protest the boat to his starboard/windward side before the start, that he (the middle boat) was exonerated since he was prevented from going up by another boat and did not bother to protest the boat to windward of him. Thus I was 'hosed' since he was exonerated and the real culprit (the boat to his starboard/windward side) got off with no penalty. The current situation is identical except the middle boat (NC) did protest the most windward boat (Q), but his protest was thrown out on a technicality (likely not timely enough). I have an inkling that a BOHICA moment is approaching, as in Bend Over Here It Comes Again!! Charlie Nelson Water Phantom C&C 36 XL/kcb cenel...@aol.com ___ This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Racing rules question
Hmm. Sounds like a Mexican divorce. you wrote: Unfortuntely, the 'real' culprit in this scenario escapes (Q) without any penalty since the boat able to protest him (NC) screwed up their protest. So NC gets disqualified (because of a technicallity on her protest) and the most culpable boat in this scenario (Q) 'skates' with no penalty! ___ This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Racing rules question
I believe you could have protested both boats. Rule 60.1 allows a right to protest if your boat is "involved in or saw the incident". Assuming that you hailed but didn't go up to avoid a collision, and middle boat did likewise, I think a committee would find against third boat and exonerate the boat nearest you, which feels right. Dave Perry's "100 Best Racing Rules Quizzes" is great winter reading. I may be all wet. Bill Walker Evening Star Pentwater, Mi. Sent from my HTC - Reply message - From: "Wally Bryant via CnC-List" To: Subject: Stus-List Racing rules question Date: Mon, Oct 20, 2014 3:19 PM Hmm. Sounds like a Mexican divorce. you wrote: > Unfortuntely, the 'real' culprit in this scenario > escapes (Q) without any penalty since the boat able to protest him (NC) > screwed up their protest. So NC gets disqualified (because of a > technicallity on her protest) and the most culpable boat in this scenario (Q) > 'skates' with no penalty! ___ This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com___ This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
