Re: Stus-List Venetian parade - now inverters

[Joe Della Barba via CnC-List]

I agree that charging laptops and cell phones is usually better done with a 12 
volt charger for the device in question than an inverter. By “appliance” I 
thought you meant things like vacuums, blenders, drills, etc. My boat computer 
has a 12 volt charger and so does my phone. The computer actually can run on 
straight 12 volts with no charger at all, but it won’t charge the internal 
battery. It needs about 16-18 volts for that. Inverters have two different 
efficiency issues to keep in mind. One is conversion efficiency and the other 
is idling power consumption. My big 1200 watt inverter draws about 0.8-0.9 amps 
just doing nothing. This is fine when I am doing something that draws 50-80 
amps on the DC side, but it would be terrible if left on for charging a phone 
or running a laptop. The little inverter draws about 0.1-0.2 amps at idle, so 
it gets used for anything it can handle. My wife has a CPAP machine that needs 
to run all night and the little inverter handles that fine.

 

Joe Della Barba

j...@dellabarba.com <mailto:j...@dellabarba.com> 

 

Coquina

C 35 MK I

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Josh Muckley 
via CnC-List
Sent: Saturday, December 19, 2015 4:19 PM
To: C List <cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
Cc: Josh Muckley <muckl...@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Stus-List Venetian parade - now inverters

 

Easy Joe, I didn't say it was impossible to install an inverter properly and 
neither did my surveyor.  It was simply his opinion that they had serious 
potential to cause more trouble than they were worth since a proper 
installation was difficult.  In his experience he had seem quite a few fires or 
potential fires.

As for the efficiency I was referring to the inverter losses.  Folks here have 
shared their own experiences charging cell phones and laptops from inverters 
vice 12v adapters.  The inverter losses can be significant and that loss equals 
heat which is often the problem with installs.  Too much heat in a tucked away 
corner which is probably further than 4' from the batteries.

In this case, for Xmas lights, it seems that a temporary install with a clamp 
on is a perfect solution.  I don't disagree that replacing the clamps with lugs 
would probably be smart and not significantly decrease the portability.

Josh Muckley
S/V Sea Hawk
1989 C 37+
Solomons, MD 

On Dec 19, 2015 12:18 PM, "Joe Della Barba via CnC-List" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
<mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> > wrote:

Your surveyor is quite wrong. I have installed a number of fixed mount 
inverters ranging from 1,000  to 3,000 watts or so and the installations 
require nothing exotic, just the correct size of wire and fuse. A skilled 
marine electrician will do these installations correctly as a routine matter. 
It is large portable inverters that are dangerous. A jumper cable clamp is not 
a safe way to carry 100 amps for very long and few to none of these setups will 
have correct fusing on either the AC or DC side.

I have permanently installed 300 and 1200 watt inverters on my boat. I usually 
have the 300 watt unit switched on for charging phones, radios, and computers. 
I can throw a switch and use the 1200 watt unit for tools, hair dryers, the 
shop-vac,  or any other large load. It draws about .9 amps at idle so I don’t 
use it routinely. I bought a hydraulic wire crimper from Harbor Freight to get 
all the battery cable crimps done right and it was an easy job making up all 
the wiring. I got a Kisae auto-switch from West to switch the outlets over from 
shore power to inverter when the shore power is turned off and then back again 
when it comes on.

As for 12 volt appliances, most of them are much more expensive than the 120 
volt version and by definition cannot be more efficient if they have the same 
power (except for inverter loses). I did discover that my little Dirt Devil 120 
volt vacuum is WAY more powerful than a 12 volt car vacuum. It does use more 
power, but gets the dirt the first pass, not after 5 passes, so it evens out in 
the end.

 

Joe Della Barba

j...@dellabarba.com <mailto:j...@dellabarba.com> 

 

Coquina

C 35 MK I

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com 
<mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com> ] On Behalf Of Josh Muckley via CnC-List
Sent: Saturday, December 19, 2015 9:34 AM
To: C List <cnc-list@cnc-list.com <mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> >
Cc: Josh Muckley <muckl...@gmail.com <mailto:muckl...@gmail.com> >
Subject: Re: Stus-List Venetian parade

 

A clamp on inverter is temporary and more powerful than a cigarette lighter 
inverter but still considerably less powerful than a permanent installation 
type.  It has jumper cable clamps for attaching to the battery studs.  The 
following is just one example.

BESTEK 2 AC Outlets 1000W Power Inverter with Battery Clamps and Car Cigarette 
Lighter Plug 
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B007SLDDHQ/ref=cm_sw_r_other_awd_NGwDwbG6

Re: Stus-List Venetian parade - now inverters

[Josh Muckley via CnC-List]

Easy Joe, I didn't say it was impossible to install an inverter properly
and neither did my surveyor.  It was simply his opinion that they had
serious potential to cause more trouble than they were worth since a proper
installation was difficult.  In his experience he had seem quite a few
fires or potential fires.

As for the efficiency I was referring to the inverter losses.  Folks here
have shared their own experiences charging cell phones and laptops from
inverters vice 12v adapters.  The inverter losses can be significant and
that loss equals heat which is often the problem with installs.  Too much
heat in a tucked away corner which is probably further than 4' from the
batteries.

In this case, for Xmas lights, it seems that a temporary install with a
clamp on is a perfect solution.  I don't disagree that replacing the clamps
with lugs would probably be smart and not significantly decrease the
portability.

Josh Muckley
S/V Sea Hawk
1989 C 37+
Solomons, MD
On Dec 19, 2015 12:18 PM, "Joe Della Barba via CnC-List" <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> Your surveyor is quite wrong. I have installed a number of fixed mount
> inverters ranging from 1,000  to 3,000 watts or so and the installations
> require nothing exotic, just the correct size of wire and fuse. A skilled
> marine electrician will do these installations correctly as a routine
> matter. It is large portable inverters that are dangerous. A jumper cable
> clamp is not a safe way to carry 100 amps for very long and few to none of
> these setups will have correct fusing on either the AC or DC side.
>
> I have permanently installed 300 and 1200 watt inverters on my boat. I
> usually have the 300 watt unit switched on for charging phones, radios, and
> computers. I can throw a switch and use the 1200 watt unit for tools, hair
> dryers, the shop-vac,  or any other large load. It draws about .9 amps at
> idle so I don’t use it routinely. I bought a hydraulic wire crimper from
> Harbor Freight to get all the battery cable crimps done right and it was an
> easy job making up all the wiring. I got a Kisae auto-switch from West to
> switch the outlets over from shore power to inverter when the shore power
> is turned off and then back again when it comes on.
>
> As for 12 volt appliances, most of them are much more expensive than the
> 120 volt version and by definition cannot be more efficient if they have
> the same power (except for inverter loses). I did discover that my little
> Dirt Devil 120 volt vacuum is WAY more powerful than a 12 volt car vacuum.
> It does use more power, but gets the dirt the first pass, not after 5
> passes, so it evens out in the end.
>
>
>
> Joe Della Barba
>
> j...@dellabarba.com
>
>
>
> Coquina
>
> C 35 MK I
>
> *From:* CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] *On Behalf Of *Josh
> Muckley via CnC-List
> *Sent:* Saturday, December 19, 2015 9:34 AM
> *To:* C List 
> *Cc:* Josh Muckley 
> *Subject:* Re: Stus-List Venetian parade
>
>
>
> A clamp on inverter is temporary and more powerful than a cigarette
> lighter inverter but still considerably less powerful than a permanent
> installation type.  It has jumper cable clamps for attaching to the battery
> studs.  The following is just one example.
>
> BESTEK 2 AC Outlets 1000W Power Inverter with Battery Clamps and Car
> Cigarette Lighter Plug
> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B007SLDDHQ/ref=cm_sw_r_other_awd_NGwDwbG6XRHSP
>
> To my surprise, my marine surveyor actually advised against permanent
> installation style inverters.  He explained that a typical 2000w inverter
> can draw so much current that a "proper" and safe install is challenging.
> He had apparently seen quite a few fires as a result of bad inverters or
> poor installations (inadequate conductor size, insufficient cooling, too
> small of a battery bank).  He advised that most appliances can be found in
> 12v variants and are more efficient.  If/when the occasional need (xmas
> lights) for 120v presents itself a clamp-on is what he recommended.
>
> Josh Muckley
> S/V Sea Hawk
> 1989 C 37+
> Solomons, MD
>
> On Dec 19, 2015 8:30 AM, "William Walker via CnC-List" <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
> What is a clamp on inverter?
> Bill Walker
>
> Sent from AOL Mobile Mail
> --
>
> On Friday, December 18, 2015 Josh Muckley via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
> Cigarette lighter inverter should be able to power a good number of LED
> strings.  A clamp on inverter would be an even better guarantee of
> sufficient power.
>
> Josh Muckley
> S/V Sea Hawk
> 1989 C 37+
> Solomons, MD
>
> On Dec 18, 2015 10:08 PM, "William Walker via CnC-List" <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
> I would love to hear ideas for lighting the boat for Venetian parades.
> LED?  Can I use Christmas lights that are on sale?  No generator on board.
> Bill Walker
> CnC 36
>
> Sent from AOL Mobile Mail
>
>
> ___
>
> 

Re: Stus-List Venetian parade - now inverters

[Joe Della Barba via CnC-List]

Your surveyor is quite wrong. I have installed a number of fixed mount 
inverters ranging from 1,000  to 3,000 watts or so and the installations 
require nothing exotic, just the correct size of wire and fuse. A skilled 
marine electrician will do these installations correctly as a routine matter. 
It is large portable inverters that are dangerous. A jumper cable clamp is not 
a safe way to carry 100 amps for very long and few to none of these setups will 
have correct fusing on either the AC or DC side.

I have permanently installed 300 and 1200 watt inverters on my boat. I usually 
have the 300 watt unit switched on for charging phones, radios, and computers. 
I can throw a switch and use the 1200 watt unit for tools, hair dryers, the 
shop-vac,  or any other large load. It draws about .9 amps at idle so I don’t 
use it routinely. I bought a hydraulic wire crimper from Harbor Freight to get 
all the battery cable crimps done right and it was an easy job making up all 
the wiring. I got a Kisae auto-switch from West to switch the outlets over from 
shore power to inverter when the shore power is turned off and then back again 
when it comes on.

As for 12 volt appliances, most of them are much more expensive than the 120 
volt version and by definition cannot be more efficient if they have the same 
power (except for inverter loses). I did discover that my little Dirt Devil 120 
volt vacuum is WAY more powerful than a 12 volt car vacuum. It does use more 
power, but gets the dirt the first pass, not after 5 passes, so it evens out in 
the end.

 

Joe Della Barba

j...@dellabarba.com  

 

Coquina

C 35 MK I

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Josh Muckley 
via CnC-List
Sent: Saturday, December 19, 2015 9:34 AM
To: C List 
Cc: Josh Muckley 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Venetian parade

 

A clamp on inverter is temporary and more powerful than a cigarette lighter 
inverter but still considerably less powerful than a permanent installation 
type.  It has jumper cable clamps for attaching to the battery studs.  The 
following is just one example.

BESTEK 2 AC Outlets 1000W Power Inverter with Battery Clamps and Car Cigarette 
Lighter Plug 
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B007SLDDHQ/ref=cm_sw_r_other_awd_NGwDwbG6XRHSP

To my surprise, my marine surveyor actually advised against permanent 
installation style inverters.  He explained that a typical 2000w inverter can 
draw so much current that a "proper" and safe install is challenging.  He had 
apparently seen quite a few fires as a result of bad inverters or poor 
installations (inadequate conductor size, insufficient cooling, too small of a 
battery bank).  He advised that most appliances can be found in 12v variants 
and are more efficient.  If/when the occasional need (xmas lights) for 120v 
presents itself a clamp-on is what he recommended.

Josh Muckley 
S/V Sea Hawk
1989 C 37+
Solomons, MD 

On Dec 19, 2015 8:30 AM, "William Walker via CnC-List"  > wrote:

What is a clamp on inverter?
Bill Walker

Sent from AOL Mobile Mail

  _  

On Friday, December 18, 2015 Josh Muckley via CnC-List  > wrote:

Cigarette lighter inverter should be able to power a good number of LED 
strings.  A clamp on inverter would be an even better guarantee of sufficient 
power.

Josh Muckley
S/V Sea Hawk
1989 C 37+
Solomons, MD 

On Dec 18, 2015 10:08 PM, "William Walker via CnC-List"  > wrote:

I would love to hear ideas for lighting the boat for Venetian parades.  LED?  
Can I use Christmas lights that are on sale?  No generator on board. 
Bill Walker
CnC 36

Sent from AOL Mobile Mail


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