RE: documentation for managers, was HP-SOAP Server announcement
Peter Robins wrote: snip/ meaning that Cocoon can only be implemented by specialist consultants working in an ad hoc manner? That doesn't sound like a very large install base to me. I would say Applications built on Cocoon are currently being implemented by ... At the moment - and due to the nature of the current Cocoon release - this is the case (unless anyone corrects me). You see Cocoon is a framework - so after installing it you really do not have anything. You still need to build whatever application you require. And Cocoon provides a great deal that will help you do that. What is currently missing is addtional documentation and practices that make the application building part easier (when do I use which component or concept to do what). But again, that can depend on your specific scenario. So, as Andrew wrote, I think the learning curve is quite steep - but there _are_ people out there who can help flatten the curve - and the journey up the hill is worth making. And things will start to become easier as the technology is adopted, documentation is written and applications are built. Matthew -- Open Source Group sunShine - Lighting up e:Business = Matthew Langham, SN AG, Klingenderstrasse 5, D-33100 Paderborn Tel:+49-5251-1581-30 [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.s-und-n.de Weblogging at: http://www.need-a-cake.com Cocoon book: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0735712352 = - Please check that your question has not already been answered in the FAQ before posting. http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faqs.html To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: documentation for managers, was HP-SOAP Server announcement
On 11 Apr 2002 at 10:46, Peter Robins wrote: In principle, Cocoon is of interest, but the key question is: is it worth the effort and the extra overhead of using Java? A very relevant point. I suppose this is an issue facing all of the Jakarta projects, the fact that besides selling open-source solutions (a challenge itself in many organizations), you're also requiring the introduction of a whole new platform. This is problematic for some of my colleagues on this project; they would have to go through lengthy approval processes in their respective organizations before they could consider using Java/Cocoon in production. This is something that Jakarta overall could probably spend a little more time educating users about. What I'm looking for (and don't find in the documentation) is answers to basic management questions like 'what advantages does Cocoon provide, i.e. what business objectives does it help meet and how?' 'how easy is it to implement?' 'what resources (time, skills level of staff) does it require to (a) get up and running (b) maintain?' plus standard operational questions like performance and security. Agreed, though certainly no one can be faulted for this. I was a documentation manager at one time in my, er, varied career, and I know that it's not possible to write comprehensive docs until the product is mature and stable. I do get the feeling that Cocoon is pretty near ready for primetime by now, however. Time to make the business case, as you say. - Brent Eades, Almonte, Ontario http://www.almonte.com http://www.bankofcanada.ca - Please check that your question has not already been answered in the FAQ before posting. http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faqs.html To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: documentation for managers, was HP-SOAP Server announcement
Brent Eades wrote: approval processes in their respective organizations before they could consider using Java/Cocoon in production. This is something that Jakarta overall could probably spend a little more time educating users about. Well, we have been selling Cocoon based solutions to our customers for over a year now - and when we started out the hardest discussions we had where on the use of an open source solution. Many major German organisations already have Java and application servers set up, so that part was easy. As a vendor of the solution (be it a project or a product) you have to be able to provide the support the organisation will need. At the end of the day if some bug in Cocoon causes the production environment to grind to a halt - then it will by YOUR problem - even if you had nothing to do with say the caching system in Cocoon. You also need to be able to provide additional documentation and educate the organisation in using and running the solution. These are some of the reasons we set up a dedicated open source group here at SN. Open source doesn't just land on your desk - you need to be able to integrate the open source into your own development environment, project lifecycle, quality assurance testing etc. And - in my opinion - you need to be able to participate. What I'm looking for (and don't find in the documentation) is answers to basic management questions like 'what advantages does Cocoon provide, i.e. what business objectives does it help meet and how?' 'how easy is it to implement?' 'what resources (time, skills level of staff) does it require to (a) get up and running (b) maintain?' plus standard operational questions like performance and security. The documentation available so far has been written (mainly) by developers to help other developers understand what is available in Cocoon. This is part of the bootstrap process that is necessary (to build the community). The next wave of documentation took place in the last couple of months where we have seen articles on Cocoon appear on Web sites and in magazines etc. This is raising public awareness for Cocoon. The next step is the availability of documentation in the form of books. These books will not just stick to documenting Cocoon APIs but will also answer some of the issues raised above. But you know, questions like: what business objectives does it help meet and how are really difficult to answer in a way that would suit all scenarios. This isn't Word where you install from a CD and you know from the start what it can - and cannot do (ok, so maybe you find that out later). We are using Cocoon in a great variety of different projects, to do completely different things (portal, web site, xml workflow system, application service providing, controlling self service devices, aggregating financial information, web printing). Imagine trying to combine all the different requirements etc. into one easy to read document. That being said, I also think we need some form of Applied Cocoon - whether that be additional documentation such as best practices, tutorials. But it could also be tools, education, get-togethers, workshops,... I do get the feeling that Cocoon is pretty near ready for primetime by now, however. Time to make the business case, as you say. Agreed. But I feel this will be something that is done on a per case basis. Tell me your problem and I will tell you how Cocoon (+ any additions) can solve it (assuming it can). Oversimplified - probably - but it's Friday :-). Matthew -- Open Source Group sunShine - Lighting up e:Business = Matthew Langham, SN AG, Klingenderstrasse 5, D-33100 Paderborn Tel:+49-5251-1581-30 [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.s-und-n.de Weblogging at: http://www.need-a-cake.com Cocoon book: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0735712352 = - Please check that your question has not already been answered in the FAQ before posting. http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faqs.html To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: documentation for managers, was HP-SOAP Server announcement
On Friday 12 Apr 2002 12:43, Matthew Langham wrote: But you know, questions like: what business objectives does it help meet and how are really difficult to answer in a way that would suit all scenarios. I would certainly agree with that. Even trying to define what Cocoon is is not so simple. But then that's true of many useful things (such as computers, internet, electricity ...) Nevertheless, it has to be clear what the benefits of Cocoon are, i.e. why you would want to install it, and this has to be explained - together with the drawbacks - in a manner that non-specialists, especially decision-makers, can understand. That being said, I also think we need some form of Applied Cocoon - whether that be additional documentation such as best practices, tutorials. I consider 'applied' to be the key word there. Start from the objective (I want to publish my data in 5 languages on the web) and show how Cocoon can meet it and what it takes. To some extent, the existing samples do that, but the information is scattered around and it takes a lot of time to follow it all through - time which most of us simply don't have. I feel this will be something that is done on a per case basis. Tell me your problem and I will tell you how Cocoon (+ any additions) can solve it (assuming it can). meaning that Cocoon can only be implemented by specialist consultants working in an ad hoc manner? That doesn't sound like a very large install base to me. - Please check that your question has not already been answered in the FAQ before posting. http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faqs.html To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: documentation for managers, was HP-SOAP Server announcement
On Fri, 12 Apr 2002, Peter Robins wrote: meaning that Cocoon can only be implemented by specialist consultants working in an ad hoc manner? That doesn't sound like a very large install base to me. It's the same with any new technology - it takes a while for a body of work to build up, and for documentation and examples to mature. Cocoon 2 is relatively young still, and until the books come out and the rough edges are knocked off by increasing use and refactoring, it will have a steep learning curve for new adopters. Linux used to be a beast to install, configure and use, and look where that is now ;-) Andrew. -- Andrew SavoryEmail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Managing Director Tel: +44 (0)870 741 6658 Luminas Internet Applications Fax: +44 (0)870 28 47489 This is not an official statement or order.Web:www.luminas.co.uk - Please check that your question has not already been answered in the FAQ before posting. http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faqs.html To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: documentation for managers, was HP-SOAP Server announcement
On Wednesday 10 Apr 2002 12:58, Brent Eades wrote: I do agree with comments in an earlier thread about the need for more detailed docs for Cocoon. My colleagues and I are of similar skill levels: we're managers with IT and communications backgrounds, all of whom do a little coding as required, but we're primarily project leaders. We're not hard-core developers. And I know we do find aspects of Cocoon (and server-side Java in general) a little baffling still. A lot of unfamiliar concepts and procedures to master. I have the same problem, tho from a different standpoint. I do a lot of consultancy for small businesses and non-profits, most of whom have tiny IT budgets - many have no IT staff at all. In principle, Cocoon is of interest, but the key question is: is it worth the effort and the extra overhead of using Java? What I'm looking for (and don't find in the documentation) is answers to basic management questions like 'what advantages does Cocoon provide, i.e. what business objectives does it help meet and how?' 'how easy is it to implement?' 'what resources (time, skills level of staff) does it require to (a) get up and running (b) maintain?' plus standard operational questions like performance and security. I've been trying to evaluate Cocoon for several months now (off and on), but still don't really have the answers. For an organisation that is already supporting a servlet environment with XML etc, implementing Cocoon would probably be quite straightforward, but for those I'm dealing with who just want a good way to maintain a website? Ok, it may well use 'pipelined SAX processing' and an 'abstracted environment' - so what? I too would be happy to help out with documentation, but don't really see how, given that I don't really know that much about Cocoon. I'll write the questions; someone else can write the answers :-) - Please check that your question has not already been answered in the FAQ before posting. http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faqs.html To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: HP-SOAP Server announcement
Greate news! This is definitaly a stuff that should be placed on the Cocoon site front page. The more this kind of news - the more popular is Cocoon. We definitely need a volunteer with good writing/advertising skills to create a promotional front page for Cocoon. -- Konstantin Piroumian [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: DZIEMBOWSKI,KINGA (HP-NewJersey,ex2) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 7:02 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: HP-SOAP Server announcement Hi All, I would like to announce the general availability release of HP Web Services Platform 2.0, a standards-based platform for developing, deploying, registering, discovering, and invoking Web services. Key components include the following: * HP-SOAP 2.0 - SOAP server and XML document processing pipeline controlled by the Apache Cocoon2 framework * listener framework - transport listeners that support http, https, smtp * plug-and-play framework that allows for protocol-neutral or protocol-specific (eg. ebXML, BizTalk) processing of SOAP messages. * Integrated security - support XML Digital Signatures * XML Digital Signature security pack * HP Service Composer - graphical tool for creating and mapping WSDL interfaces and for automatic deployment to HP Application Server 8.0 * HP Registry Composer - graphical tool for registering and discovering Web services in UDDI registries via UDDI4J Java API * Useful trail map tutorials, documentation, and use case examples to expedite the Web services learning process HP Web Services Platform 2.0 is J2EE application server agnostic and has been tested with HP-AS 8.0, Tomcat, BEA WebLogic 5.1 and 6.1. A 30 day no charge evaluation copy of HP Web Services Platform 2.0 can be downloaded from http://www.hpmiddleware.com/download. Hope this proves useful and instructive to the entire Cocoon community. We are looking forward to you guys building on what we've developed so far. Kinga (and team) _ Kinga Dziembowski Hewlett Packard HP Bluestone Middleware Division 6000 Irwin Road Mt. Laurel, NJ 08054 856.638.6065 - Please check that your question has not already been answered in the FAQ before posting. http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faqs.html To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Please check that your question has not already been answered in the FAQ before posting. http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faqs.html To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: HP-SOAP Server announcement
On 10 Apr 2002 at 15:07, Konstantin Piroumian wrote: This is definitaly a stuff that should be placed on the Cocoon site front page. The more this kind of news - the more popular is Cocoon. We definitely need a volunteer with good writing/advertising skills to create a promotional front page for Cocoon. Well, I'd be happy to do so, once I understand Cocoon a little better. It's difficult to write persuasive copy without an in-depth knowledge of the subject matter; otherwise you just end up writing meaningless marketing drivel. The more I explore and tinker with Cocoon, the more impressed I become. But when I try to explain its capabilities to colleagues, I tend to get bogged down in jargon: Well, it uses pipelined SAX processing to, uh... well... it's pretty cool, anyway. :) My interest in Cocoon arises from my involvement in a project with various central banks throughout the world: we're looking at mechanisms whereby we can exchange press releases, research abstracts and statistical data via XML. And Cocoon seems purpose-built for what we're trying to achieve, at least so far. Especially in its ability to pull data out of numerous non-XML sources. Very slick. The recent charting thread is also of great interest. I do agree with comments in an earlier thread about the need for more detailed docs for Cocoon. My colleagues and I are of similar skill levels: we're managers with IT and communications backgrounds, all of whom do a little coding as required, but we're primarily project leaders. We're not hard-core developers. And I know we do find aspects of Cocoon (and server-side Java in general) a little baffling still. A lot of unfamiliar concepts and procedures to master. (Don't get me started on bloody classpaths!! :) Anyway... put me down as a volunteer to help with beefing up the docs and marketing stuff. - Brent Eades, Almonte, Ontario http://www.almonte.com http://www.bankofcanada.ca - Please check that your question has not already been answered in the FAQ before posting. http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faqs.html To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: HP-SOAP Server announcement
Welcome ;) For a start point you can look at Jakarta Struts front page and this message: http://www.mail-archive.com/cocoon-dev@xml.apache.org/msg14374.html Cocoon docs (including the site pages) are written in XML using docbook-v10 format (see xml-cocoon2\src\documentation\xdocs\ directory), but if you feel more comfortable with other formats then it's Ok, just post a patch to Bugzilla with the document or send it to cocoon-dev list and somebody will convert it to XML. -- Konstantin Piroumian [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Brent Eades [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 3:59 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: HP-SOAP Server announcement On 10 Apr 2002 at 15:07, Konstantin Piroumian wrote: This is definitaly a stuff that should be placed on the Cocoon site front page. The more this kind of news - the more popular is Cocoon. We definitely need a volunteer with good writing/advertising skills to create a promotional front page for Cocoon. Well, I'd be happy to do so, once I understand Cocoon a little better. It's difficult to write persuasive copy without an in-depth knowledge of the subject matter; otherwise you just end up writing meaningless marketing drivel. The more I explore and tinker with Cocoon, the more impressed I become. But when I try to explain its capabilities to colleagues, I tend to get bogged down in jargon: Well, it uses pipelined SAX processing to, uh... well... it's pretty cool, anyway. :) My interest in Cocoon arises from my involvement in a project with various central banks throughout the world: we're looking at mechanisms whereby we can exchange press releases, research abstracts and statistical data via XML. And Cocoon seems purpose-built for what we're trying to achieve, at least so far. Especially in its ability to pull data out of numerous non-XML sources. Very slick. The recent charting thread is also of great interest. I do agree with comments in an earlier thread about the need for more detailed docs for Cocoon. My colleagues and I are of similar skill levels: we're managers with IT and communications backgrounds, all of whom do a little coding as required, but we're primarily project leaders. We're not hard-core developers. And I know we do find aspects of Cocoon (and server-side Java in general) a little baffling still. A lot of unfamiliar concepts and procedures to master. (Don't get me started on bloody classpaths!! :) Anyway... put me down as a volunteer to help with beefing up the docs and marketing stuff. - Brent Eades, Almonte, Ontario http://www.almonte.com http://www.bankofcanada.ca - Please check that your question has not already been answered in the FAQ before posting. http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faqs.html To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Please check that your question has not already been answered in the FAQ before posting. http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faqs.html To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: HP-SOAP Server announcement
I will be happy to share that. Kinga -Original Message- From: Stefano Mazzocchi [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 8:37 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: HP-SOAP Server announcement DZIEMBOWSKI,KINGA (HP-NewJersey,ex2) wrote: Hi All, I would like to announce the general availability release of HP Web Services Platform 2.0, a standards-based platform for developing, deploying, registering, discovering, and invoking Web services. Key components include the following: * HP-SOAP 2.0 - SOAP server and XML document processing pipeline controlled by the Apache Cocoon2 framework * listener framework - transport listeners that support http, https, smtp * plug-and-play framework that allows for protocol-neutral or protocol-specific (eg. ebXML, BizTalk) processing of SOAP messages. * Integrated security - support XML Digital Signatures * XML Digital Signature security pack * HP Service Composer - graphical tool for creating and mapping WSDL interfaces and for automatic deployment to HP Application Server 8.0 * HP Registry Composer - graphical tool for registering and discovering Web services in UDDI registries via UDDI4J Java API * Useful trail map tutorials, documentation, and use case examples to expedite the Web services learning process HP Web Services Platform 2.0 is J2EE application server agnostic and has been tested with HP-AS 8.0, Tomcat, BEA WebLogic 5.1 and 6.1. A 30 day no charge evaluation copy of HP Web Services Platform 2.0 can be downloaded from http://www.hpmiddleware.com/download. Hope this proves useful and instructive to the entire Cocoon community. We are looking forward to you guys building on what we've developed so far. Uh, sounds very cool. I'll download and play with it ASAP. And sure, I'll be very interested to know how you guys did that. Thanks. -- Stefano Mazzocchi One must still have chaos in oneself to be able to give birth to a dancing star. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Friedrich Nietzsche - Please check that your question has not already been answered in the FAQ before posting. http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faqs.html To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Please check that your question has not already been answered in the FAQ before posting. http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faqs.html To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: HP-SOAP Server announcement
DZIEMBOWSKI,KINGA (HP-NewJersey,ex2) wrote: Hi All, I would like to announce the general availability release of HP Web Services Platform 2.0, a standards-based platform for developing, deploying, registering, discovering, and invoking Web services. Key components include the following: * HP-SOAP 2.0 - SOAP server and XML document processing pipeline controlled by the Apache Cocoon2 framework * listener framework - transport listeners that support http, https, smtp * plug-and-play framework that allows for protocol-neutral or protocol-specific (eg. ebXML, BizTalk) processing of SOAP messages. * Integrated security - support XML Digital Signatures * XML Digital Signature security pack * HP Service Composer - graphical tool for creating and mapping WSDL interfaces and for automatic deployment to HP Application Server 8.0 * HP Registry Composer - graphical tool for registering and discovering Web services in UDDI registries via UDDI4J Java API * Useful trail map tutorials, documentation, and use case examples to expedite the Web services learning process HP Web Services Platform 2.0 is J2EE application server agnostic and has been tested with HP-AS 8.0, Tomcat, BEA WebLogic 5.1 and 6.1. A 30 day no charge evaluation copy of HP Web Services Platform 2.0 can be downloaded from http://www.hpmiddleware.com/download. Hope this proves useful and instructive to the entire Cocoon community. We are looking forward to you guys building on what we've developed so far. Uh, sounds very cool. I'll download and play with it ASAP. And sure, I'll be very interested to know how you guys did that. Thanks. -- Stefano Mazzocchi One must still have chaos in oneself to be able to give birth to a dancing star. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Friedrich Nietzsche - Please check that your question has not already been answered in the FAQ before posting. http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faqs.html To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
HP-SOAP Server announcement
Hi All, I would like to announce the general availability release of HP Web Services Platform 2.0, a standards-based platform for developing, deploying, registering, discovering, and invoking Web services. Key components include the following: * HP-SOAP 2.0 - SOAP server and XML document processing pipeline controlled by the Apache Cocoon2 framework * listener framework - transport listeners that support http, https, smtp * plug-and-play framework that allows for protocol-neutral or protocol-specific (eg. ebXML, BizTalk) processing of SOAP messages. * Integrated security - support XML Digital Signatures * XML Digital Signature security pack * HP Service Composer - graphical tool for creating and mapping WSDL interfaces and for automatic deployment to HP Application Server 8.0 * HP Registry Composer - graphical tool for registering and discovering Web services in UDDI registries via UDDI4J Java API * Useful trail map tutorials, documentation, and use case examples to expedite the Web services learning process HP Web Services Platform 2.0 is J2EE application server agnostic and has been tested with HP-AS 8.0, Tomcat, BEA WebLogic 5.1 and 6.1. A 30 day no charge evaluation copy of HP Web Services Platform 2.0 can be downloaded from http://www.hpmiddleware.com/download. Hope this proves useful and instructive to the entire Cocoon community. We are looking forward to you guys building on what we've developed so far. Kinga (and team) _ Kinga Dziembowski Hewlett Packard HP Bluestone Middleware Division 6000 Irwin Road Mt. Laurel, NJ 08054 856.638.6065 - Please check that your question has not already been answered in the FAQ before posting. http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faqs.html To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
