Re: [CODE4LIB] Linux Public Computers - time and ticket reservation system

2009-01-26 Thread Darrell Eifert

Hi Ben --

This is very close to what I've been searching for -- thanks for the 
link ...


Darrell Eifert
Lane Memorial Library

Benjamin Daeuber wrote:

On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 1:08 PM, Erik Hetzner erik.hetz...@ucop.edu wrote:
  

Groovix claims to be GPLed, though they do not make it easy to get the
software. Here is some info:

http://wiki.groovix.org/index.php?title=GroovixSoftwareInstaller




The time management they are using is GPL:

http://freshmeat.net/projects/pre-book/

It's actually from Userful.

  


Re: [CODE4LIB] Linux Public Computers - time and ticket reservation system

2009-01-05 Thread st...@archive.org

hi Darrell,

thanks for your intriguing post.

a few of observations; 1) this is one instance of the use
of a GNU/Linux system which may seem to be at odds with the
very premise of free (in the GNU sense) software, and that
is, to NOT limit the ability of users to do things. so your
use cases may seem odd at first, but you have a valid and
important case.

2) many open source programmers may not be familiar with
commercial software products (and may not want to be), so
you might have a better chance of getting an answer if you
do the groundwork of listing the features you are in search
of yourself, rather than asking the list to go learn them.

3) it seems that a good desktop linux distro would allow
an administrator or programmer to create a system (based on
the existing pieces you mention) that might consist of a
some shell scripts, perhaps a lite database, a web server,
and client- and server-side scripts to accomplish the
features that you list, and then provide hooks for that
system to be made into a distributable package (e.g. Ubuntu).

i wouldn't be surprised if your listing the desired features
explicitly might seed some capable programmers mind to suggest
(or even spend some time coding something up) which may help
you right away. or, it may just prompt someone to remember
that something _does_ already exist that answers your needs.
(i think Francis' LibPrint suggestion seems very helpful)

just keep in mind that the very nature of the linux system
is organic, and the workforce is distributed and lasseiz-faire.
it doesn't seem to be very agile in responding to monolithic
deficiencies (just look at how we ended up with the linux
kernel vs. hurd :).


/st...@archive.org



On 12/30/08 12:37 PM, Darrell Eifert wrote:

Hi Folks --

Nicolaie Constantinescu recommended that I contact this list with my 
questions after posting a query to the Linux in Libraries group.  I 
will be presenting an introduction to Desktop Linux at the New Hampshire 
Library Association next year, and would like some help on answering a 
question that is sure to arise from my prospective audience.  Many 
librarians are intrigued by the possibility of lowering IT costs and 
maintenance time, especially for their public-use computers.  Right now 
however, there doesn't seem to be any open source versions of a 
reservation / ticket system (such as the excellent WinXP Time Limit 
Manager from Fortres) and a desktop security application such as Deep 
Freeze.   There are commercial options from Groovix or Userful, but that 
pretty much defeats the practical goal of lowering IT costs, or the 
ideological goal of moving to free and open-source applications.


All the 'bits and pieces' for a good reservation and security system 
seem to be out there.  Edubuntu gives us a LTSP solution with a central 
server and the ability to see 'screenshots' of individual PCs if 
necessary.  CUPS gives a very fine-grained control over printing, and 
perhaps can be modified to function as a print-upon-payment release 
station.  A MySQL / PhP module could handle generating and storing 
random passwords / logins, while a small program to set folder 
permissions may be able to lock down a Gnome or KDE desktop to prevent 
users from changing icons, menus, or wallpaper.  Web content filtering 
is available from several sources if necessary.  A browser-based central 
server module might help to make the project distro agnostic.


I think many small and medium-sized libraries would be much more likely 
to consider the advantages of choosing Linux for their public-use 
computers if a polished open-source reservation and printing control 
system was available.  In the world of commercial software, an 
entrepreneur or company sees an opportunity, programs a solution, and 
sells the product.  On that model we have the afore mentioned Time 
Limit Manager for XP (which we use here at the Lane Library and highly 
recommend) at a one-time cost of only $20 per PC.
In the world of Linux and open-source software, how does one go about 
getting a programmer or group of programmers to provide a free solution 
(with regular maintenance and updates) to a pressing need?  Would 
Canonical (for example) be interested in creating the program as a way 
to popularize Ubuntu with the thousands who use library computers every 
day?  Would anyone on this list be interested in spearheading such a 
project?  Is there a place to float such a project before a group of 
up-and-coming programmers (Google Summer of Code??) that would give them 
bragging rights on a resume?


Any ideas (including ideas on a basic programming framework or project 
how to) would be more than welcome ...


Cheers,



Re: [CODE4LIB] Linux Public Computers - time and ticket reservation system

2009-01-05 Thread Darrell Eifert
Actually, I meant 'free' in both senses, but mostly in the sense of 
'free of charge'.  I hate to be blunt, but I think it's pretty safe to 
say that Ubuntu, Koha, GIMP, OpenOffice, Joomla and even the option of 
Linux itself would never exist or have gained traction and a developer 
base if these products were not freely available.  Groovix and Userful 
are selling proprietary public-use computer management packages at a 
higher cost than their XP equivalents.  If an open source LTSP solution 
were available under Linux (as in the Edubuntu package for schools) I 
would be much happier about recommending Linux as a solution for 
public-use computers in small to medium-sized independent public 
libraries.  

Again, I would invite those interested in providing help on this project 
to look at the feature list of 'Time Limit Manager' from Fortres -- 
that's what I want in an LTSP package.  (As an analogy, remember that 
Koha was once just an idea floating around in some idealistic New 
Zealander's head.)


http://www.fortresgrand.com/products/tlm/tlm.htm

Cheers,
-- Darrell


Erik Hetzner wrote:

At Tue, 30 Dec 2008 14:28:44 -0800,
Karen Coyle li...@kcoyle.net wrote:
  

Darrell Eifert wrote:

There are commercial options from Groovix or Userful, but that pretty 
much defeats the practical goal of lowering IT costs, or the 
ideological goal of moving to free and open-source applications.


  
I have a hard time considering free (as in not paying for) as 
ideological. If linux is a good desktop, the freeness is icing on the 
cake. (And it's only free as in the purchase price; you still pay in 
some way to maintain it.) If you need to purchase apps to make your 
library work as it should, then you should budget for that. I think we 
need to see free and open source as two different properties that 
MAY intersect but do not necessarily intersect.


kc
(who prefers linux to windows, and is looking forward to being able to 
purchase my favorite apps for linux as they become available)



I think that Darrell probably meant ‘free’ in the GNU sense:

http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html

best, Erik
  



;; Erik Hetzner, California Digital Library
;; gnupg key id: 1024D/01DB07E3
  


--
-
Darrell Eifert
Head of Adult Services
Lane Memorial Library, Hampton NH

Beware the man of only one book
Old Latin proverb


Re: [CODE4LIB] Linux Public Computers - time and ticket reservation system

2009-01-05 Thread Erik Hetzner
At Mon, 5 Jan 2009 11:02:31 -0500,
Darrell Eifert deif...@hampton.lib.nh.us wrote:

 Actually, I meant 'free' in both senses, but mostly in the sense of
 'free of charge'.

Thanks for the clarification. In that case I have to agree with Karen.
Free (as in beer) software tends to be a property that results from
the principles of free (as in speech) software, but it is not an goal
in itself of most free/open source software developers.

 I hate to be blunt, but I think it's pretty safe to say that Ubuntu,
 Koha, GIMP, OpenOffice, Joomla and even the option of Linux itself
 would never exist or have gained traction and a developer base if
 these products were not freely available.

Probably - but they certainly never would have gained a developer base
if they were not free in the sense of having the source code
available, and allowing modifications. Freedom is more important to
community building than giving the software away without cost.

 Groovix and Userful are selling proprietary public-use computer
 management packages at a higher cost than their XP equivalents. If
 an open source LTSP solution were available under Linux (as in the
 Edubuntu package for schools) I would be much happier about
 recommending Linux as a solution for public-use computers in small
 to medium-sized independent public libraries.

 Again, I would invite those interested in providing help on this
 project to look at the feature list of 'Time Limit Manager' from
 Fortres -- that's what I want in an LTSP package. (As an analogy,
 remember that Koha was once just an idea floating around in some
 idealistic New Zealander's head.)

 http://www.fortresgrand.com/products/tlm/tlm.htm

Groovix claims to be GPLed, though they do not make it easy to get the
software. Here is some info:

http://wiki.groovix.org/index.php?title=GroovixSoftwareInstaller

best, Erik


pgpzjohkt6SmU.pgp
Description: PGP signature


Re: [CODE4LIB] Linux Public Computers - time and ticket reservation system

2009-01-05 Thread st...@archive.org

hi Darrell,

thanks for your intriguing post.

a few observations; 1) this is one instance of the use of
a GNU/Linux system which may seem to be at odds with the
very premise of free (in the GNU sense) software, and that
is; to NOT limit the ability of users to do things. so your
use cases may seem odd at first, but you have a valid and
important case.

2) many open source programmers may not be familiar with
commercial software products (and may not want to be), so
you might have a better chance of getting an answer if you
do the groundwork of listing the features you are in search
of yourself, rather than asking the list to go learn them.

3) it seems that a good desktop linux distro would allow
an administrator or programmer to create a system (based on
the existing pieces you mention) that might consist of a
some shell scripts, perhaps a lite database, a web server,
and client- and server-side scripts to accomplish the
features that you list, and then provide hooks for that
system to be made into a distributable package (e.g. Ubuntu).

i wouldn't be surprised if your listing the desired features
explicitly might seed some capable programmer's mind to suggest
(or even spend some time coding something up) which may help
you right away. or, it may just prompt someone to remember
that something _does_ already exist that answers your needs.
(i think Francis' LibPrint suggestion seems very helpful)

just keep in mind that the very nature of the linux system
is organic, and the workforce is distributed and lasseiz-faire.
it doesn't seem to be very agile in responding to monolithic
deficiencies (just look at how we ended up with the linux
kernel vs. hurd :).


/st...@archive.org


Re: [CODE4LIB] Linux Public Computers - time and ticket reservation system

2009-01-05 Thread Joe Hourcle

On Tue, 30 Dec 2008, Darrell Eifert wrote:


Hi Folks --

Nicolaie Constantinescu recommended that I contact this list with my 
questions after posting a query to the Linux in Libraries group.


[trimmed]

In the world of Linux and open-source software, how does one go about getting 
a programmer or group of programmers to provide a free solution (with regular 
maintenance and updates) to a pressing need?  Would Canonical (for example) 
be interested in creating the program as a way to popularize Ubuntu with the 
thousands who use library computers every day?  Would anyone on this list be 
interested in spearheading such a project?  Is there a place to float such a 
project before a group of up-and-coming programmers (Google Summer of Code??) 
that would give them bragging rights on a resume?



Usually, it comes to down to a 'build it and they will come' type 
situation -- you see what you want, so you start it (either on your own, 
or with a team), and put it out there for people to use / comment on / add 
to / etc.


So, as you have the vision, I'd suggest you spearhead it yourself -- even 
if that doesn't mean programming, but trying to get some programmers 
interested in the project while you deal more with requirements analysis.


As for where to find programmers, I'd suggest you try selling the project 
on the oss4lib list:


http://www.oss4lib.org/mailing-list

(there's a fair bit of cross-over of membership between oss4lib and 
code4lib, but that's probably a closer fit to what you're trying to do)


-
Joe Hourcle


[CODE4LIB] Linux Public Computers - time and ticket reservation system

2008-12-30 Thread Darrell Eifert

Hi Folks --

Nicolaie Constantinescu recommended that I contact this list with my 
questions after posting a query to the Linux in Libraries group.  I 
will be presenting an introduction to Desktop Linux at the New Hampshire 
Library Association next year, and would like some help on answering a 
question that is sure to arise from my prospective audience.  Many 
librarians are intrigued by the possibility of lowering IT costs and 
maintenance time, especially for their public-use computers.  Right now 
however, there doesn't seem to be any open source versions of a 
reservation / ticket system (such as the excellent WinXP Time Limit 
Manager from Fortres) and a desktop security application such as Deep 
Freeze.   There are commercial options from Groovix or Userful, but that 
pretty much defeats the practical goal of lowering IT costs, or the 
ideological goal of moving to free and open-source applications.


All the 'bits and pieces' for a good reservation and security system 
seem to be out there.  Edubuntu gives us a LTSP solution with a central 
server and the ability to see 'screenshots' of individual PCs if 
necessary.  CUPS gives a very fine-grained control over printing, and 
perhaps can be modified to function as a print-upon-payment release 
station.  A MySQL / PhP module could handle generating and storing 
random passwords / logins, while a small program to set folder 
permissions may be able to lock down a Gnome or KDE desktop to prevent 
users from changing icons, menus, or wallpaper.  Web content filtering 
is available from several sources if necessary.  A browser-based central 
server module might help to make the project distro agnostic.


I think many small and medium-sized libraries would be much more likely 
to consider the advantages of choosing Linux for their public-use 
computers if a polished open-source reservation and printing control 
system was available.  In the world of commercial software, an 
entrepreneur or company sees an opportunity, programs a solution, and 
sells the product.  On that model we have the afore mentioned Time 
Limit Manager for XP (which we use here at the Lane Library and highly 
recommend) at a one-time cost of only $20 per PC. 

In the world of Linux and open-source software, how does one go about 
getting a programmer or group of programmers to provide a free solution 
(with regular maintenance and updates) to a pressing need?  Would 
Canonical (for example) be interested in creating the program as a way 
to popularize Ubuntu with the thousands who use library computers every 
day?  Would anyone on this list be interested in spearheading such a 
project?  Is there a place to float such a project before a group of 
up-and-coming programmers (Google Summer of Code??) that would give them 
bragging rights on a resume?


Any ideas (including ideas on a basic programming framework or project 
how to) would be more than welcome ...


Cheers,

--
-
Darrell Eifert
Head of Adult Services
Lane Memorial Library, Hampton NH

Beware the man of only one book
Old Latin proverb


Re: [CODE4LIB] Linux Public Computers - time and ticket reservation system

2008-12-30 Thread Brent Ferguson
Grand Rapids Public Library System (Kent District Library) in Michigan has done 
some type of time reservation thing in Linux, and other open source public you 
may want to check into..

 

-Original Message-
From: Code for Libraries on behalf of Darrell Eifert
Sent: Tue 12/30/2008 3:37 PM
To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU
Subject: [CODE4LIB] Linux Public Computers - time and ticket reservation system
 
Hi Folks --

Nicolaie Constantinescu recommended that I contact this list with my 
questions after posting a query to the Linux in Libraries group.  I 
will be presenting an introduction to Desktop Linux at the New Hampshire 
Library Association next year, and would like some help on answering a 
question that is sure to arise from my prospective audience.  Many 
librarians are intrigued by the possibility of lowering IT costs and 
maintenance time, especially for their public-use computers.  Right now 
however, there doesn't seem to be any open source versions of a 
reservation / ticket system (such as the excellent WinXP Time Limit 
Manager from Fortres) and a desktop security application such as Deep 
Freeze.   There are commercial options from Groovix or Userful, but that 
pretty much defeats the practical goal of lowering IT costs, or the 
ideological goal of moving to free and open-source applications.

All the 'bits and pieces' for a good reservation and security system 
seem to be out there.  Edubuntu gives us a LTSP solution with a central 
server and the ability to see 'screenshots' of individual PCs if 
necessary.  CUPS gives a very fine-grained control over printing, and 
perhaps can be modified to function as a print-upon-payment release 
station.  A MySQL / PhP module could handle generating and storing 
random passwords / logins, while a small program to set folder 
permissions may be able to lock down a Gnome or KDE desktop to prevent 
users from changing icons, menus, or wallpaper.  Web content filtering 
is available from several sources if necessary.  A browser-based central 
server module might help to make the project distro agnostic.

I think many small and medium-sized libraries would be much more likely 
to consider the advantages of choosing Linux for their public-use 
computers if a polished open-source reservation and printing control 
system was available.  In the world of commercial software, an 
entrepreneur or company sees an opportunity, programs a solution, and 
sells the product.  On that model we have the afore mentioned Time 
Limit Manager for XP (which we use here at the Lane Library and highly 
recommend) at a one-time cost of only $20 per PC. 

In the world of Linux and open-source software, how does one go about 
getting a programmer or group of programmers to provide a free solution 
(with regular maintenance and updates) to a pressing need?  Would 
Canonical (for example) be interested in creating the program as a way 
to popularize Ubuntu with the thousands who use library computers every 
day?  Would anyone on this list be interested in spearheading such a 
project?  Is there a place to float such a project before a group of 
up-and-coming programmers (Google Summer of Code??) that would give them 
bragging rights on a resume?

Any ideas (including ideas on a basic programming framework or project 
how to) would be more than welcome ...

Cheers,

-- 
-
Darrell Eifert
Head of Adult Services
Lane Memorial Library, Hampton NH

Beware the man of only one book
Old Latin proverb


Re: [CODE4LIB] Linux Public Computers - time and ticket reservation system

2008-12-30 Thread Shawn Boyette ☠
On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 3:37 PM, Darrell Eifert
deif...@hampton.lib.nh.us wrote:
  a small
 program to set folder permissions may be able to lock down a Gnome or KDE
 desktop to prevent users from changing icons, menus, or wallpaper.

Option 1: Why lockdown?. Simply make a snapshot of the desktop As You
Want It, and everytime someone logs in, overwrite the dotfiles with
the stock ones. Everyone gets the default desktop everytime they
login, no matter what. Unix is all text files; take advantage of it.

Option 2: Why lockdown? If you have persistent user identifiers of any
sort, *stash* the user's desktop at logout and *restore* it at login.
If someone horks things beyond repair, log 'em out, nuke their config
set, and they get the default on next login. Everybody gets *their*
desktop, everytime they login, no matter what. Unix is all text files;
take advantage of it.

-- 
Shawn Boyette (feeling contrarian)
sboye...@gmail.com


Re: [CODE4LIB] Linux Public Computers - time and ticket reservation system

2008-12-30 Thread Darrell Eifert

Hi Shawn --

Thanks for the options.  I'm familiar with some of the ways to restore a 
desktop to its' original configuration at the next login -- I need a way 
(as in Deep Freeze) to *prevent* the user from changing icons or the 
desktop wallpaper during the session.  We have a small contingent of YAs 
who love to play shock the librarian with their choice of  (ahem) 
scenery ...  To my knowledge this type of lockdown is a standard feature 
for most programs written to help manage public-use computers in a 
library setting.


-- Darrell

Shawn Boyette ☠ wrote:

On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 3:37 PM, Darrell Eifert
deif...@hampton.lib.nh.us wrote:
  

 a small
program to set folder permissions may be able to lock down a Gnome or KDE
desktop to prevent users from changing icons, menus, or wallpaper.



Option 1: Why lockdown?. Simply make a snapshot of the desktop As You
Want It, and everytime someone logs in, overwrite the dotfiles with
the stock ones. Everyone gets the default desktop everytime they
login, no matter what. Unix is all text files; take advantage of it.

Option 2: Why lockdown? If you have persistent user identifiers of any
sort, *stash* the user's desktop at logout and *restore* it at login.
If someone horks things beyond repair, log 'em out, nuke their config
set, and they get the default on next login. Everybody gets *their*
desktop, everytime they login, no matter what. Unix is all text files;
take advantage of it.

  


--
-
Darrell Eifert
Head of Adult Services
Lane Memorial Library, Hampton NH

Beware the man of only one book
Old Latin proverb


Re: [CODE4LIB] Linux Public Computers - time and ticket reservation system

2008-12-30 Thread Karen Coyle

Darrell Eifert wrote:
There are commercial options from Groovix or Userful, but that pretty 
much defeats the practical goal of lowering IT costs, or the 
ideological goal of moving to free and open-source applications.




I have a hard time considering free (as in not paying for) as 
ideological. If linux is a good desktop, the freeness is icing on the 
cake. (And it's only free as in the purchase price; you still pay in 
some way to maintain it.) If you need to purchase apps to make your 
library work as it should, then you should budget for that. I think we 
need to see free and open source as two different properties that 
MAY intersect but do not necessarily intersect.


kc
(who prefers linux to windows, and is looking forward to being able to 
purchase my favorite apps for linux as they become available)


--
---
Karen Coyle / Digital Library Consultant
kco...@kcoyle.net http://www.kcoyle.net
ph.: 510-540-7596   skype: kcoylenet
fx.: 510-848-3913
mo.: 510-435-8234



Re: [CODE4LIB] Linux Public Computers - time and ticket reservation system

2008-12-30 Thread Francis Kayiwa

On Dec 30, 2008, at 2:37 PM, Darrell Eifert wrote:

.



I think many small and medium-sized libraries would be much more  
likely to consider the advantages of choosing Linux for their public- 
use computers if a polished open-source reservation


http://sourceforge.net/projects/mrbs/

s/room/computer/g



and printing control system was available.


...there is...

https://www-s2.library.uiuc.edu/lp/docs/intro.pl

in both cases some assembly will be required.

./fxk

=
Francis Kayiwa
Library Systems
http://www.uic.edu/~kayiwa