Re: [CODE4LIB] Linux Public Computers - time and ticket reservation system
Hi Ben -- This is very close to what I've been searching for -- thanks for the link ... Darrell Eifert Lane Memorial Library Benjamin Daeuber wrote: On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 1:08 PM, Erik Hetzner erik.hetz...@ucop.edu wrote: Groovix claims to be GPLed, though they do not make it easy to get the software. Here is some info: http://wiki.groovix.org/index.php?title=GroovixSoftwareInstaller The time management they are using is GPL: http://freshmeat.net/projects/pre-book/ It's actually from Userful.
Re: [CODE4LIB] Linux Public Computers - time and ticket reservation system
hi Darrell, thanks for your intriguing post. a few of observations; 1) this is one instance of the use of a GNU/Linux system which may seem to be at odds with the very premise of free (in the GNU sense) software, and that is, to NOT limit the ability of users to do things. so your use cases may seem odd at first, but you have a valid and important case. 2) many open source programmers may not be familiar with commercial software products (and may not want to be), so you might have a better chance of getting an answer if you do the groundwork of listing the features you are in search of yourself, rather than asking the list to go learn them. 3) it seems that a good desktop linux distro would allow an administrator or programmer to create a system (based on the existing pieces you mention) that might consist of a some shell scripts, perhaps a lite database, a web server, and client- and server-side scripts to accomplish the features that you list, and then provide hooks for that system to be made into a distributable package (e.g. Ubuntu). i wouldn't be surprised if your listing the desired features explicitly might seed some capable programmers mind to suggest (or even spend some time coding something up) which may help you right away. or, it may just prompt someone to remember that something _does_ already exist that answers your needs. (i think Francis' LibPrint suggestion seems very helpful) just keep in mind that the very nature of the linux system is organic, and the workforce is distributed and lasseiz-faire. it doesn't seem to be very agile in responding to monolithic deficiencies (just look at how we ended up with the linux kernel vs. hurd :). /st...@archive.org On 12/30/08 12:37 PM, Darrell Eifert wrote: Hi Folks -- Nicolaie Constantinescu recommended that I contact this list with my questions after posting a query to the Linux in Libraries group. I will be presenting an introduction to Desktop Linux at the New Hampshire Library Association next year, and would like some help on answering a question that is sure to arise from my prospective audience. Many librarians are intrigued by the possibility of lowering IT costs and maintenance time, especially for their public-use computers. Right now however, there doesn't seem to be any open source versions of a reservation / ticket system (such as the excellent WinXP Time Limit Manager from Fortres) and a desktop security application such as Deep Freeze. There are commercial options from Groovix or Userful, but that pretty much defeats the practical goal of lowering IT costs, or the ideological goal of moving to free and open-source applications. All the 'bits and pieces' for a good reservation and security system seem to be out there. Edubuntu gives us a LTSP solution with a central server and the ability to see 'screenshots' of individual PCs if necessary. CUPS gives a very fine-grained control over printing, and perhaps can be modified to function as a print-upon-payment release station. A MySQL / PhP module could handle generating and storing random passwords / logins, while a small program to set folder permissions may be able to lock down a Gnome or KDE desktop to prevent users from changing icons, menus, or wallpaper. Web content filtering is available from several sources if necessary. A browser-based central server module might help to make the project distro agnostic. I think many small and medium-sized libraries would be much more likely to consider the advantages of choosing Linux for their public-use computers if a polished open-source reservation and printing control system was available. In the world of commercial software, an entrepreneur or company sees an opportunity, programs a solution, and sells the product. On that model we have the afore mentioned Time Limit Manager for XP (which we use here at the Lane Library and highly recommend) at a one-time cost of only $20 per PC. In the world of Linux and open-source software, how does one go about getting a programmer or group of programmers to provide a free solution (with regular maintenance and updates) to a pressing need? Would Canonical (for example) be interested in creating the program as a way to popularize Ubuntu with the thousands who use library computers every day? Would anyone on this list be interested in spearheading such a project? Is there a place to float such a project before a group of up-and-coming programmers (Google Summer of Code??) that would give them bragging rights on a resume? Any ideas (including ideas on a basic programming framework or project how to) would be more than welcome ... Cheers,
Re: [CODE4LIB] Linux Public Computers - time and ticket reservation system
Actually, I meant 'free' in both senses, but mostly in the sense of 'free of charge'. I hate to be blunt, but I think it's pretty safe to say that Ubuntu, Koha, GIMP, OpenOffice, Joomla and even the option of Linux itself would never exist or have gained traction and a developer base if these products were not freely available. Groovix and Userful are selling proprietary public-use computer management packages at a higher cost than their XP equivalents. If an open source LTSP solution were available under Linux (as in the Edubuntu package for schools) I would be much happier about recommending Linux as a solution for public-use computers in small to medium-sized independent public libraries. Again, I would invite those interested in providing help on this project to look at the feature list of 'Time Limit Manager' from Fortres -- that's what I want in an LTSP package. (As an analogy, remember that Koha was once just an idea floating around in some idealistic New Zealander's head.) http://www.fortresgrand.com/products/tlm/tlm.htm Cheers, -- Darrell Erik Hetzner wrote: At Tue, 30 Dec 2008 14:28:44 -0800, Karen Coyle li...@kcoyle.net wrote: Darrell Eifert wrote: There are commercial options from Groovix or Userful, but that pretty much defeats the practical goal of lowering IT costs, or the ideological goal of moving to free and open-source applications. I have a hard time considering free (as in not paying for) as ideological. If linux is a good desktop, the freeness is icing on the cake. (And it's only free as in the purchase price; you still pay in some way to maintain it.) If you need to purchase apps to make your library work as it should, then you should budget for that. I think we need to see free and open source as two different properties that MAY intersect but do not necessarily intersect. kc (who prefers linux to windows, and is looking forward to being able to purchase my favorite apps for linux as they become available) I think that Darrell probably meant ‘free’ in the GNU sense: http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html best, Erik ;; Erik Hetzner, California Digital Library ;; gnupg key id: 1024D/01DB07E3 -- - Darrell Eifert Head of Adult Services Lane Memorial Library, Hampton NH Beware the man of only one book Old Latin proverb
Re: [CODE4LIB] Linux Public Computers - time and ticket reservation system
At Mon, 5 Jan 2009 11:02:31 -0500, Darrell Eifert deif...@hampton.lib.nh.us wrote: Actually, I meant 'free' in both senses, but mostly in the sense of 'free of charge'. Thanks for the clarification. In that case I have to agree with Karen. Free (as in beer) software tends to be a property that results from the principles of free (as in speech) software, but it is not an goal in itself of most free/open source software developers. I hate to be blunt, but I think it's pretty safe to say that Ubuntu, Koha, GIMP, OpenOffice, Joomla and even the option of Linux itself would never exist or have gained traction and a developer base if these products were not freely available. Probably - but they certainly never would have gained a developer base if they were not free in the sense of having the source code available, and allowing modifications. Freedom is more important to community building than giving the software away without cost. Groovix and Userful are selling proprietary public-use computer management packages at a higher cost than their XP equivalents. If an open source LTSP solution were available under Linux (as in the Edubuntu package for schools) I would be much happier about recommending Linux as a solution for public-use computers in small to medium-sized independent public libraries. Again, I would invite those interested in providing help on this project to look at the feature list of 'Time Limit Manager' from Fortres -- that's what I want in an LTSP package. (As an analogy, remember that Koha was once just an idea floating around in some idealistic New Zealander's head.) http://www.fortresgrand.com/products/tlm/tlm.htm Groovix claims to be GPLed, though they do not make it easy to get the software. Here is some info: http://wiki.groovix.org/index.php?title=GroovixSoftwareInstaller best, Erik pgpzjohkt6SmU.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [CODE4LIB] Linux Public Computers - time and ticket reservation system
hi Darrell, thanks for your intriguing post. a few observations; 1) this is one instance of the use of a GNU/Linux system which may seem to be at odds with the very premise of free (in the GNU sense) software, and that is; to NOT limit the ability of users to do things. so your use cases may seem odd at first, but you have a valid and important case. 2) many open source programmers may not be familiar with commercial software products (and may not want to be), so you might have a better chance of getting an answer if you do the groundwork of listing the features you are in search of yourself, rather than asking the list to go learn them. 3) it seems that a good desktop linux distro would allow an administrator or programmer to create a system (based on the existing pieces you mention) that might consist of a some shell scripts, perhaps a lite database, a web server, and client- and server-side scripts to accomplish the features that you list, and then provide hooks for that system to be made into a distributable package (e.g. Ubuntu). i wouldn't be surprised if your listing the desired features explicitly might seed some capable programmer's mind to suggest (or even spend some time coding something up) which may help you right away. or, it may just prompt someone to remember that something _does_ already exist that answers your needs. (i think Francis' LibPrint suggestion seems very helpful) just keep in mind that the very nature of the linux system is organic, and the workforce is distributed and lasseiz-faire. it doesn't seem to be very agile in responding to monolithic deficiencies (just look at how we ended up with the linux kernel vs. hurd :). /st...@archive.org
Re: [CODE4LIB] Linux Public Computers - time and ticket reservation system
On Tue, 30 Dec 2008, Darrell Eifert wrote: Hi Folks -- Nicolaie Constantinescu recommended that I contact this list with my questions after posting a query to the Linux in Libraries group. [trimmed] In the world of Linux and open-source software, how does one go about getting a programmer or group of programmers to provide a free solution (with regular maintenance and updates) to a pressing need? Would Canonical (for example) be interested in creating the program as a way to popularize Ubuntu with the thousands who use library computers every day? Would anyone on this list be interested in spearheading such a project? Is there a place to float such a project before a group of up-and-coming programmers (Google Summer of Code??) that would give them bragging rights on a resume? Usually, it comes to down to a 'build it and they will come' type situation -- you see what you want, so you start it (either on your own, or with a team), and put it out there for people to use / comment on / add to / etc. So, as you have the vision, I'd suggest you spearhead it yourself -- even if that doesn't mean programming, but trying to get some programmers interested in the project while you deal more with requirements analysis. As for where to find programmers, I'd suggest you try selling the project on the oss4lib list: http://www.oss4lib.org/mailing-list (there's a fair bit of cross-over of membership between oss4lib and code4lib, but that's probably a closer fit to what you're trying to do) - Joe Hourcle
[CODE4LIB] Linux Public Computers - time and ticket reservation system
Hi Folks -- Nicolaie Constantinescu recommended that I contact this list with my questions after posting a query to the Linux in Libraries group. I will be presenting an introduction to Desktop Linux at the New Hampshire Library Association next year, and would like some help on answering a question that is sure to arise from my prospective audience. Many librarians are intrigued by the possibility of lowering IT costs and maintenance time, especially for their public-use computers. Right now however, there doesn't seem to be any open source versions of a reservation / ticket system (such as the excellent WinXP Time Limit Manager from Fortres) and a desktop security application such as Deep Freeze. There are commercial options from Groovix or Userful, but that pretty much defeats the practical goal of lowering IT costs, or the ideological goal of moving to free and open-source applications. All the 'bits and pieces' for a good reservation and security system seem to be out there. Edubuntu gives us a LTSP solution with a central server and the ability to see 'screenshots' of individual PCs if necessary. CUPS gives a very fine-grained control over printing, and perhaps can be modified to function as a print-upon-payment release station. A MySQL / PhP module could handle generating and storing random passwords / logins, while a small program to set folder permissions may be able to lock down a Gnome or KDE desktop to prevent users from changing icons, menus, or wallpaper. Web content filtering is available from several sources if necessary. A browser-based central server module might help to make the project distro agnostic. I think many small and medium-sized libraries would be much more likely to consider the advantages of choosing Linux for their public-use computers if a polished open-source reservation and printing control system was available. In the world of commercial software, an entrepreneur or company sees an opportunity, programs a solution, and sells the product. On that model we have the afore mentioned Time Limit Manager for XP (which we use here at the Lane Library and highly recommend) at a one-time cost of only $20 per PC. In the world of Linux and open-source software, how does one go about getting a programmer or group of programmers to provide a free solution (with regular maintenance and updates) to a pressing need? Would Canonical (for example) be interested in creating the program as a way to popularize Ubuntu with the thousands who use library computers every day? Would anyone on this list be interested in spearheading such a project? Is there a place to float such a project before a group of up-and-coming programmers (Google Summer of Code??) that would give them bragging rights on a resume? Any ideas (including ideas on a basic programming framework or project how to) would be more than welcome ... Cheers, -- - Darrell Eifert Head of Adult Services Lane Memorial Library, Hampton NH Beware the man of only one book Old Latin proverb
Re: [CODE4LIB] Linux Public Computers - time and ticket reservation system
Grand Rapids Public Library System (Kent District Library) in Michigan has done some type of time reservation thing in Linux, and other open source public you may want to check into.. -Original Message- From: Code for Libraries on behalf of Darrell Eifert Sent: Tue 12/30/2008 3:37 PM To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU Subject: [CODE4LIB] Linux Public Computers - time and ticket reservation system Hi Folks -- Nicolaie Constantinescu recommended that I contact this list with my questions after posting a query to the Linux in Libraries group. I will be presenting an introduction to Desktop Linux at the New Hampshire Library Association next year, and would like some help on answering a question that is sure to arise from my prospective audience. Many librarians are intrigued by the possibility of lowering IT costs and maintenance time, especially for their public-use computers. Right now however, there doesn't seem to be any open source versions of a reservation / ticket system (such as the excellent WinXP Time Limit Manager from Fortres) and a desktop security application such as Deep Freeze. There are commercial options from Groovix or Userful, but that pretty much defeats the practical goal of lowering IT costs, or the ideological goal of moving to free and open-source applications. All the 'bits and pieces' for a good reservation and security system seem to be out there. Edubuntu gives us a LTSP solution with a central server and the ability to see 'screenshots' of individual PCs if necessary. CUPS gives a very fine-grained control over printing, and perhaps can be modified to function as a print-upon-payment release station. A MySQL / PhP module could handle generating and storing random passwords / logins, while a small program to set folder permissions may be able to lock down a Gnome or KDE desktop to prevent users from changing icons, menus, or wallpaper. Web content filtering is available from several sources if necessary. A browser-based central server module might help to make the project distro agnostic. I think many small and medium-sized libraries would be much more likely to consider the advantages of choosing Linux for their public-use computers if a polished open-source reservation and printing control system was available. In the world of commercial software, an entrepreneur or company sees an opportunity, programs a solution, and sells the product. On that model we have the afore mentioned Time Limit Manager for XP (which we use here at the Lane Library and highly recommend) at a one-time cost of only $20 per PC. In the world of Linux and open-source software, how does one go about getting a programmer or group of programmers to provide a free solution (with regular maintenance and updates) to a pressing need? Would Canonical (for example) be interested in creating the program as a way to popularize Ubuntu with the thousands who use library computers every day? Would anyone on this list be interested in spearheading such a project? Is there a place to float such a project before a group of up-and-coming programmers (Google Summer of Code??) that would give them bragging rights on a resume? Any ideas (including ideas on a basic programming framework or project how to) would be more than welcome ... Cheers, -- - Darrell Eifert Head of Adult Services Lane Memorial Library, Hampton NH Beware the man of only one book Old Latin proverb
Re: [CODE4LIB] Linux Public Computers - time and ticket reservation system
On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 3:37 PM, Darrell Eifert deif...@hampton.lib.nh.us wrote: a small program to set folder permissions may be able to lock down a Gnome or KDE desktop to prevent users from changing icons, menus, or wallpaper. Option 1: Why lockdown?. Simply make a snapshot of the desktop As You Want It, and everytime someone logs in, overwrite the dotfiles with the stock ones. Everyone gets the default desktop everytime they login, no matter what. Unix is all text files; take advantage of it. Option 2: Why lockdown? If you have persistent user identifiers of any sort, *stash* the user's desktop at logout and *restore* it at login. If someone horks things beyond repair, log 'em out, nuke their config set, and they get the default on next login. Everybody gets *their* desktop, everytime they login, no matter what. Unix is all text files; take advantage of it. -- Shawn Boyette (feeling contrarian) sboye...@gmail.com
Re: [CODE4LIB] Linux Public Computers - time and ticket reservation system
Hi Shawn -- Thanks for the options. I'm familiar with some of the ways to restore a desktop to its' original configuration at the next login -- I need a way (as in Deep Freeze) to *prevent* the user from changing icons or the desktop wallpaper during the session. We have a small contingent of YAs who love to play shock the librarian with their choice of (ahem) scenery ... To my knowledge this type of lockdown is a standard feature for most programs written to help manage public-use computers in a library setting. -- Darrell Shawn Boyette ☠ wrote: On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 3:37 PM, Darrell Eifert deif...@hampton.lib.nh.us wrote: a small program to set folder permissions may be able to lock down a Gnome or KDE desktop to prevent users from changing icons, menus, or wallpaper. Option 1: Why lockdown?. Simply make a snapshot of the desktop As You Want It, and everytime someone logs in, overwrite the dotfiles with the stock ones. Everyone gets the default desktop everytime they login, no matter what. Unix is all text files; take advantage of it. Option 2: Why lockdown? If you have persistent user identifiers of any sort, *stash* the user's desktop at logout and *restore* it at login. If someone horks things beyond repair, log 'em out, nuke their config set, and they get the default on next login. Everybody gets *their* desktop, everytime they login, no matter what. Unix is all text files; take advantage of it. -- - Darrell Eifert Head of Adult Services Lane Memorial Library, Hampton NH Beware the man of only one book Old Latin proverb
Re: [CODE4LIB] Linux Public Computers - time and ticket reservation system
Darrell Eifert wrote: There are commercial options from Groovix or Userful, but that pretty much defeats the practical goal of lowering IT costs, or the ideological goal of moving to free and open-source applications. I have a hard time considering free (as in not paying for) as ideological. If linux is a good desktop, the freeness is icing on the cake. (And it's only free as in the purchase price; you still pay in some way to maintain it.) If you need to purchase apps to make your library work as it should, then you should budget for that. I think we need to see free and open source as two different properties that MAY intersect but do not necessarily intersect. kc (who prefers linux to windows, and is looking forward to being able to purchase my favorite apps for linux as they become available) -- --- Karen Coyle / Digital Library Consultant kco...@kcoyle.net http://www.kcoyle.net ph.: 510-540-7596 skype: kcoylenet fx.: 510-848-3913 mo.: 510-435-8234
Re: [CODE4LIB] Linux Public Computers - time and ticket reservation system
On Dec 30, 2008, at 2:37 PM, Darrell Eifert wrote: . I think many small and medium-sized libraries would be much more likely to consider the advantages of choosing Linux for their public- use computers if a polished open-source reservation http://sourceforge.net/projects/mrbs/ s/room/computer/g and printing control system was available. ...there is... https://www-s2.library.uiuc.edu/lp/docs/intro.pl in both cases some assembly will be required. ./fxk = Francis Kayiwa Library Systems http://www.uic.edu/~kayiwa