Re: [CODE4LIB] back to minorities question, seeking guidance [link]
On May 6, 2013, at 11:08 AM, Eric Lease Morgan emor...@nd.edu wrote: The second is a cool gender visualization brought to my attention by a colleague here in the Libraries -- Lauren Ajamie. (Again, Thank you.) It illustrates the percentage of women to men in the publishing of scholarly content. There has got to be an API under there somewhere, but I haven't found it. Duh! http://www.eigenfactor.org/gender/ --Earache Least Moron
Re: [CODE4LIB] back to minorities question, seeking guidance
I think math is essential, but what they teach in schools these days isn't math. It's arithmetic. Some intro philosophy courses teach math. I'll stop before I start ranting. On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 12:04 AM, Kelly Lucas klu...@isovera.com wrote: On Sat, Feb 23, 2013 at 2:57 AM, Thomas Krichel kric...@openlib.org wrote: Wilhelmina Randtke writes Pretty much the whole entire entry level programming class for the average class covers using code to do things that you can do much more easily without code. Probably it was the wrong course. I think coding should start with building web pages. A calculator can't do that. Cheers, Thomas Krichelhttp://openlib.org/home/krichel http://authorprofile.org/pkr1 skype: thomaskrichel -- Kelly R. Lucas Senior Developer Isovera, Inc. klu...@isovera.com http://www.isovera.com http://drupal.org/user/271780 twitter: @bp1101
Re: [CODE4LIB] back to minorities question, seeking guidance
What both Kelly and David say is true here: David: programming needs math, not arithmetic. Kelly: computers are good at arithmetic on their own. To which I'll add: the related skill that I see as necessary here is quantitative reasoning - not the crunching of numbers but the correct assembly of the formulae, articulating the systematization of the problem. What I'm less certain of is what sort of training tend to lead to that sort of conceptual skill. Ken On Feb 27, 2013, at 8:44 AM, David Faler dfa...@tlcdelivers.com wrote: I think math is essential, but what they teach in schools these days isn't math. It's arithmetic. Some intro philosophy courses teach math. I'll stop before I start ranting. On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 12:04 AM, Kelly Lucas klu...@isovera.com wrote: On Sat, Feb 23, 2013 at 2:57 AM, Thomas Krichel kric...@openlib.org wrote: Wilhelmina Randtke writes Pretty much the whole entire entry level programming class for the average class covers using code to do things that you can do much more easily without code. Probably it was the wrong course. I think coding should start with building web pages. A calculator can't do that. Cheers, Thomas Krichelhttp://openlib.org/home/krichel http://authorprofile.org/pkr1 skype: thomaskrichel -- Kelly R. Lucas Senior Developer Isovera, Inc. klu...@isovera.com http://www.isovera.com http://drupal.org/user/271780 twitter: @bp1101
Re: [CODE4LIB] back to minorities question, seeking guidance
Probably it was the wrong course. I think coding should start with building web pages. A calculator can't do that. HTML is called markup language, but does anyone here really think it's a programming language? Even though is gets more complicated over time, it pretty much doesn't have variables or do interactive things, and is for displaying things, not manipulating things. My point about math and programming is that the curriculum for the average intro programming class appears to have been developed circa 1972 and never tweaked. I'm in Programming for Engineers right now, which is the prerequisite for the classes that looked useful. So far we have written lots of small programs to add numbers, find modulos, make a simple loop. All this would have been exciting before calculators. But, yeah, we have calculators now. And, actually, we had calculators before we had widespread access to affordable computers. Writing a page long program to add some numbers makes no sense. It's probably the least efficient way to solve the problem. Nothing about the coursework shows computers as useful at solving problems. Everything about the coursework shows computers as clunky inefficient, difficult to use calculators. And... here is something we haven't done... We have not yet called a function from inside a function. So, the whole object oriented thing has not yet appeared, and it's past midterm time. From having looked at a bunch of syllabi online for different intro level programming classes, I think my experiences are the norm. The intro classes cover things you can do more easily without coding. This type of curriculum is off putting to at least some people. It also isn't necessary. I think it's possible to design a curriculum where students could have something to show that would be worthwhile now, as opposed to worthwhile in 1972 when adding many numbers at once was a big deal. -Wilhelmina Randtke On Sat, Feb 23, 2013 at 1:57 AM, Thomas Krichel kric...@openlib.org wrote: Wilhelmina Randtke writes Pretty much the whole entire entry level programming class for the average class covers using code to do things that you can do much more easily without code. Probably it was the wrong course. I think coding should start with building web pages. A calculator can't do that. Cheers, Thomas Krichelhttp://openlib.org/home/krichel http://authorprofile.org/pkr1 skype: thomaskrichel
Re: [CODE4LIB] back to minorities question, seeking guidance
I think Wilhelmina has touched on an very important point that, for some, in order to learn--or want to learn--something, the material has to be relevant to them. Some folks can get through the boring, calculators can do this parts of because they anticipate the long-term benefit while others learn more effectively if the material helps them achieve a goal they already have or a goal that is within their area of expertise or interest. Christina George (Hi! I'm new to this listserv) -Original Message- From: Code for Libraries [mailto:CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU] On Behalf Of Wilhelmina Randtke Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2013 8:47 AM To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] back to minorities question, seeking guidance Probably it was the wrong course. I think coding should start with building web pages. A calculator can't do that. HTML is called markup language, but does anyone here really think it's a programming language? Even though is gets more complicated over time, it pretty much doesn't have variables or do interactive things, and is for displaying things, not manipulating things. My point about math and programming is that the curriculum for the average intro programming class appears to have been developed circa 1972 and never tweaked. I'm in Programming for Engineers right now, which is the prerequisite for the classes that looked useful. So far we have written lots of small programs to add numbers, find modulos, make a simple loop. All this would have been exciting before calculators. But, yeah, we have calculators now. And, actually, we had calculators before we had widespread access to affordable computers. Writing a page long program to add some numbers makes no sense. It's probably the least efficient way to solve the problem. Nothing about the coursework shows computers as useful at solving problems. Everything about the coursework shows computers as clunky inefficient, difficult to use calculators. And... here is something we haven't done... We have not yet called a function from inside a function. So, the whole object oriented thing has not yet appeared, and it's past midterm time. From having looked at a bunch of syllabi online for different intro level programming classes, I think my experiences are the norm. The intro classes cover things you can do more easily without coding. This type of curriculum is off putting to at least some people. It also isn't necessary. I think it's possible to design a curriculum where students could have something to show that would be worthwhile now, as opposed to worthwhile in 1972 when adding many numbers at once was a big deal. -Wilhelmina Randtke On Sat, Feb 23, 2013 at 1:57 AM, Thomas Krichel kric...@openlib.org wrote: Wilhelmina Randtke writes Pretty much the whole entire entry level programming class for the average class covers using code to do things that you can do much more easily without code. Probably it was the wrong course. I think coding should start with building web pages. A calculator can't do that. Cheers, Thomas Krichelhttp://openlib.org/home/krichel http://authorprofile.org/pkr1 skype: thomaskrichel
Re: [CODE4LIB] back to minorities question, seeking guidance
Christina George, hello! and welcome. WR, idly, I wonder whether this intro to programming but-not-for-programmers course might be taught by an underqualified or overworked adjunct or grad student slave, or if not, whether instead by a bored research professor. It doesn't sound like fun. Sympathy. Greetings to all 2292 recipients. -- Al Matthews Software Developer, Digital Services Unit Atlanta University Center, Robert W. Woodruff Library email: amatth...@auctr.edu; office: 1 404 978 2057 On 2/27/13 11:11 AM, George, Christina Rose georg...@umsystem.edu wrote: I think Wilhelmina has touched on an very important point that, for some, in order to learn--or want to learn--something, the material has to be relevant to them. Some folks can get through the boring, calculators can do this parts of because they anticipate the long-term benefit while others learn more effectively if the material helps them achieve a goal they already have or a goal that is within their area of expertise or interest. Christina George (Hi! I'm new to this listserv) -Original Message- From: Code for Libraries [mailto:CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU] On Behalf Of Wilhelmina Randtke Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2013 8:47 AM To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] back to minorities question, seeking guidance Probably it was the wrong course. I think coding should start with building web pages. A calculator can't do that. HTML is called markup language, but does anyone here really think it's a programming language? Even though is gets more complicated over time, it pretty much doesn't have variables or do interactive things, and is for displaying things, not manipulating things. My point about math and programming is that the curriculum for the average intro programming class appears to have been developed circa 1972 and never tweaked. I'm in Programming for Engineers right now, which is the prerequisite for the classes that looked useful. So far we have written lots of small programs to add numbers, find modulos, make a simple loop. All this would have been exciting before calculators. But, yeah, we have calculators now. And, actually, we had calculators before we had widespread access to affordable computers. Writing a page long program to add some numbers makes no sense. It's probably the least efficient way to solve the problem. Nothing about the coursework shows computers as useful at solving problems. Everything about the coursework shows computers as clunky inefficient, difficult to use calculators. And... here is something we haven't done... We have not yet called a function from inside a function. So, the whole object oriented thing has not yet appeared, and it's past midterm time. From having looked at a bunch of syllabi online for different intro level programming classes, I think my experiences are the norm. The intro classes cover things you can do more easily without coding. This type of curriculum is off putting to at least some people. It also isn't necessary. I think it's possible to design a curriculum where students could have something to show that would be worthwhile now, as opposed to worthwhile in 1972 when adding many numbers at once was a big deal. -Wilhelmina Randtke On Sat, Feb 23, 2013 at 1:57 AM, Thomas Krichel kric...@openlib.org wrote: Wilhelmina Randtke writes Pretty much the whole entire entry level programming class for the average class covers using code to do things that you can do much more easily without code. Probably it was the wrong course. I think coding should start with building web pages. A calculator can't do that. Cheers, Thomas Krichelhttp://openlib.org/home/krichel http://authorprofile.org/pkr1 skype: thomaskrichel - ** The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential. They are intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager or the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to anyone or make copies. ** IronMail scanned this email for viruses, vandals and malicious content. ** **
Re: [CODE4LIB] back to minorities question, seeking guidance
OMG. I used to tell everyone that arithmetic is not math. Amazingly nobody (who is not into math) cares. Just ask my wife. Cary On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 5:43 AM, David Faler dfa...@tlcdelivers.com wrote: I think math is essential, but what they teach in schools these days isn't math. It's arithmetic. Some intro philosophy courses teach math. I'll stop before I start ranting. On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 12:04 AM, Kelly Lucas klu...@isovera.com wrote: On Sat, Feb 23, 2013 at 2:57 AM, Thomas Krichel kric...@openlib.org wrote: Wilhelmina Randtke writes Pretty much the whole entire entry level programming class for the average class covers using code to do things that you can do much more easily without code. Probably it was the wrong course. I think coding should start with building web pages. A calculator can't do that. Cheers, Thomas Krichelhttp://openlib.org/home/krichel http://authorprofile.org/pkr1 skype: thomaskrichel -- Kelly R. Lucas Senior Developer Isovera, Inc. klu...@isovera.com http://www.isovera.com http://drupal.org/user/271780 twitter: @bp1101 -- Cary Gordon The Cherry Hill Company http://chillco.com
Re: [CODE4LIB] back to minorities question, seeking guidance
I think that the programming / scripting / markup language discussion is not helpful. Any time you key in something, run it on a computer, and something else comes out (hopefully what is expected), to me, that qualifies as programming. Why not? Cary On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 6:47 AM, Wilhelmina Randtke rand...@gmail.comwrote: Probably it was the wrong course. I think coding should start with building web pages. A calculator can't do that. HTML is called markup language, but does anyone here really think it's a programming language? Even though is gets more complicated over time, it pretty much doesn't have variables or do interactive things, and is for displaying things, not manipulating things. My point about math and programming is that the curriculum for the average intro programming class appears to have been developed circa 1972 and never tweaked. I'm in Programming for Engineers right now, which is the prerequisite for the classes that looked useful. So far we have written lots of small programs to add numbers, find modulos, make a simple loop. All this would have been exciting before calculators. But, yeah, we have calculators now. And, actually, we had calculators before we had widespread access to affordable computers. Writing a page long program to add some numbers makes no sense. It's probably the least efficient way to solve the problem. Nothing about the coursework shows computers as useful at solving problems. Everything about the coursework shows computers as clunky inefficient, difficult to use calculators. And... here is something we haven't done... We have not yet called a function from inside a function. So, the whole object oriented thing has not yet appeared, and it's past midterm time. From having looked at a bunch of syllabi online for different intro level programming classes, I think my experiences are the norm. The intro classes cover things you can do more easily without coding. This type of curriculum is off putting to at least some people. It also isn't necessary. I think it's possible to design a curriculum where students could have something to show that would be worthwhile now, as opposed to worthwhile in 1972 when adding many numbers at once was a big deal. -Wilhelmina Randtke On Sat, Feb 23, 2013 at 1:57 AM, Thomas Krichel kric...@openlib.org wrote: Wilhelmina Randtke writes Pretty much the whole entire entry level programming class for the average class covers using code to do things that you can do much more easily without code. Probably it was the wrong course. I think coding should start with building web pages. A calculator can't do that. Cheers, Thomas Krichelhttp://openlib.org/home/krichel http://authorprofile.org/pkr1 skype: thomaskrichel -- Cary Gordon The Cherry Hill Company http://chillco.com
Re: [CODE4LIB] back to minorities question, seeking guidance
I'm forced to agree that arithmetic isn't math. In fact, I'd go further and say that arithmetic isn't even arithmetic. At best it's accounting. (Accounting, on the other hand, is way more than accounting, so please don't take offense if you're an accountant.) On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 12:57 PM, Cary Gordon listu...@chillco.com wrote: OMG. I used to tell everyone that arithmetic is not math. Amazingly nobody (who is not into math) cares. Just ask my wife. Cary On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 5:43 AM, David Faler dfa...@tlcdelivers.com wrote: I think math is essential, but what they teach in schools these days isn't math. It's arithmetic. Some intro philosophy courses teach math. I'll stop before I start ranting. On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 12:04 AM, Kelly Lucas klu...@isovera.com wrote: On Sat, Feb 23, 2013 at 2:57 AM, Thomas Krichel kric...@openlib.org wrote: Wilhelmina Randtke writes Pretty much the whole entire entry level programming class for the average class covers using code to do things that you can do much more easily without code. Probably it was the wrong course. I think coding should start with building web pages. A calculator can't do that. Cheers, Thomas Krichelhttp://openlib.org/home/krichel http://authorprofile.org/pkr1 skype: thomaskrichel -- Kelly R. Lucas Senior Developer Isovera, Inc. klu...@isovera.com http://www.isovera.com http://drupal.org/user/271780 twitter: @bp1101 -- Cary Gordon The Cherry Hill Company http://chillco.com
Re: [CODE4LIB] back to minorities question, seeking guidance
Salve! I'm forced to agree that arithmetic isn't math. In fact, I'd go further and say that arithmetic isn't even arithmetic. At best it's accounting. (Accounting, on the other hand, is way more than accounting, so please don't take offense if you're an accountant.) http://xkcd.com/899/ That is all. Cheers, Brooke
Re: [CODE4LIB] back to minorities question, seeking guidance
I don't know. Saying math is essential to modern day programming/coding is like saying it's essential to auto mechanics. I mean, I guess, but not really. I regularly joke about my inability to add/subtract as that's what computers are for. While reading code, initial programming statements may resemble Algebra 1 formulas but they quickly devolve into verbose patterns and human styles that feel more in line with my verbal than my quantitative side. On Sat, Feb 23, 2013 at 2:57 AM, Thomas Krichel kric...@openlib.org wrote: Wilhelmina Randtke writes Pretty much the whole entire entry level programming class for the average class covers using code to do things that you can do much more easily without code. Probably it was the wrong course. I think coding should start with building web pages. A calculator can't do that. Cheers, Thomas Krichelhttp://openlib.org/home/krichel http://authorprofile.org/pkr1 skype: thomaskrichel -- Kelly R. Lucas Senior Developer Isovera, Inc. klu...@isovera.com http://www.isovera.com http://drupal.org/user/271780 twitter: @bp1101
Re: [CODE4LIB] back to minorities question, seeking guidance
On 2/21/13 7:48 PM, Emily Morton-Owens wrote: This was just the right thing to say, because he was connecting it to something that I consider myself talented at (languages), rather than something I don't (math). I want to clear up the math is hard and programming is math myths. First, the ratio of women to men in graduate math programs is approaching 50/50, although women are still struggling to be hired and gain tenure in math departments. So math is hard for many of us, but it's not necessarily a gender thing. (I'm looking for the cite for this -- I've done too much random reading recently and didn't mark this. May be book below.) Math skills are not required for programming. There was a time when silicon valley was desperate for programmers, and some companies advertised that they were looking for folks with music skills and they would teach them programming -- because they had found that musicians make for good programmers. It's the ability to deal with complex patterns that makes a difference. Which is why it annoys me when programming instruction begins with a list of mathematical functions that most programmers will never need. I believe that Rosy was the first to recommend this, but the IEEE publication: Gender Codes - why women are leaving computing/ edited by Thomas Misa, 2010 is essential reading. You can get it as a Kindle or Nook book. isbn 978-0470-59719-4 (paper) 978-1118-03513-9 (ebook) kc Hi Folks, I'm teaching systems analysis at SILS (UNC CH) this semester. Though the course is required for the IS degree, it's not required for the LS degree. However, the majority of my students this semester are LS. And the vast majority are women. Apropos of the part of the thread that dealt with numbers: For those of you who came into this community and at some point went through a MSLS or MSIS program I am wondering if there are things I could try to do that might have an impact on better aligning the ratio of men to women in code4lib and the technology end of the field in general to that in the general population? Was there a moment of clarity? A person who said or modeled the right thing? A project that helped uncover a skill you didn't know you had? And, I am not just interested in what I can do through one class, but also what the curriculum and school could do more holistically. Thanks, Tim -- Karen Coyle kco...@kcoyle.net http://kcoyle.net ph: 1-510-540-7596 m: 1-510-435-8234 skype: kcoylenet
Re: [CODE4LIB] back to minorities question, seeking guidance
While comprehensive specific math skill set might not be necessary in programming, an understanding of mathematics beyond arithmetic can be very useful. Relational database theory, for example, maps pretty neatly to set theory. Mathematics in general delivers a lot of insight into dealing with complex patterns. Is a solid math background necessary to program? Of course not. Sooner or later though, programmers need a solid understanding of logic. Thanks, Cary On Fri, Feb 22, 2013 at 7:30 AM, Karen Coyle li...@kcoyle.net wrote: On 2/21/13 7:48 PM, Emily Morton-Owens wrote: This was just the right thing to say, because he was connecting it to something that I consider myself talented at (languages), rather than something I don't (math). I want to clear up the math is hard and programming is math myths. First, the ratio of women to men in graduate math programs is approaching 50/50, although women are still struggling to be hired and gain tenure in math departments. So math is hard for many of us, but it's not necessarily a gender thing. (I'm looking for the cite for this -- I've done too much random reading recently and didn't mark this. May be book below.) Math skills are not required for programming. There was a time when silicon valley was desperate for programmers, and some companies advertised that they were looking for folks with music skills and they would teach them programming -- because they had found that musicians make for good programmers. It's the ability to deal with complex patterns that makes a difference. Which is why it annoys me when programming instruction begins with a list of mathematical functions that most programmers will never need. I believe that Rosy was the first to recommend this, but the IEEE publication: Gender Codes - why women are leaving computing/ edited by Thomas Misa, 2010 is essential reading. You can get it as a Kindle or Nook book. isbn 978-0470-59719-4 (paper) 978-1118-03513-9 (ebook) kc Hi Folks, I'm teaching systems analysis at SILS (UNC CH) this semester. Though the course is required for the IS degree, it's not required for the LS degree. However, the majority of my students this semester are LS. And the vast majority are women. Apropos of the part of the thread that dealt with numbers: For those of you who came into this community and at some point went through a MSLS or MSIS program I am wondering if there are things I could try to do that might have an impact on better aligning the ratio of men to women in code4lib and the technology end of the field in general to that in the general population? Was there a moment of clarity? A person who said or modeled the right thing? A project that helped uncover a skill you didn't know you had? And, I am not just interested in what I can do through one class, but also what the curriculum and school could do more holistically. Thanks, Tim -- Karen Coyle kco...@kcoyle.net http://kcoyle.net ph: 1-510-540-7596 m: 1-510-435-8234 skype: kcoylenet -- Cary Gordon The Cherry Hill Company http://chillco.com
Re: [CODE4LIB] back to minorities question, seeking guidance
On Feb 22, 2013, at 11:39 AM, Cary Gordon listu...@chillco.com wrote: Is a solid math background necessary to program? Of course not. Sooner or later though, programmers need a solid understanding of logic. I concur. The reason mathematics is so closely tied to computer programming is because both mathematics and computer programing require rigorous and systematic thinking. Both mathematics and computer programming start out with a simple and rudimentary set of syntax and semantics. Improper use of the syntax outputs nothing. Poor semantics creates confusion. Use them correctly, and systems are created. It is a lot like music as well. Here is the tool -- a flute. Here are the notes it can play. Combine the notes to create beautiful music. Combine the functions of computers to create beautiful solutions. Combine the elements of mathematics to create beautiful descriptions. -- Eric Lease Morgan
Re: [CODE4LIB] back to minorities question, seeking guidance
On 2/22/13 8:39 AM, Cary Gordon wrote: While comprehensive specific math skill set might not be necessary in programming, an understanding of mathematics beyond arithmetic can be very useful. Relational database theory, for example, maps pretty neatly to set theory. In fact, Cary, you can do relational databases just fine without set theory. If it maps to set theory when you do know it, that's fine. But in all the years in which I've worked on databases, only one person involved in the design was a mathematician, and she didn't work directly on defining the database design. Just because some of coding can be explained with math doesn't mean that you *need* math to explain it. Mathematics did not invent the concept of sets; you can go back to Aristotle and find, pre-mathematical set theory, a good philosophical basis for that thinking. Mathematics in general delivers a lot of insight into dealing with complex patterns. As do music, language, clothing manufacture and building. And if you may recall, the punch card and the first programming came from weaving machinery. There are lots of activities that use complex patterns. Is a solid math background necessary to program? Of course not. Sooner or later though, programmers need a solid understanding of logic. Yes, but there are many sources for that solid understanding. To insist that the understanding has to come from mathematics is to essentially take a very narrow view of human thought. This is one of the things that bothers me about some proponents of mathematics: there seems to be a view that math is the one true approach. If that were the case, our world would be sadly uniform and uncreative. kc Thanks, Cary On Fri, Feb 22, 2013 at 7:30 AM, Karen Coyle li...@kcoyle.net wrote: On 2/21/13 7:48 PM, Emily Morton-Owens wrote: This was just the right thing to say, because he was connecting it to something that I consider myself talented at (languages), rather than something I don't (math). I want to clear up the math is hard and programming is math myths. First, the ratio of women to men in graduate math programs is approaching 50/50, although women are still struggling to be hired and gain tenure in math departments. So math is hard for many of us, but it's not necessarily a gender thing. (I'm looking for the cite for this -- I've done too much random reading recently and didn't mark this. May be book below.) Math skills are not required for programming. There was a time when silicon valley was desperate for programmers, and some companies advertised that they were looking for folks with music skills and they would teach them programming -- because they had found that musicians make for good programmers. It's the ability to deal with complex patterns that makes a difference. Which is why it annoys me when programming instruction begins with a list of mathematical functions that most programmers will never need. I believe that Rosy was the first to recommend this, but the IEEE publication: Gender Codes - why women are leaving computing/ edited by Thomas Misa, 2010 is essential reading. You can get it as a Kindle or Nook book. isbn 978-0470-59719-4 (paper) 978-1118-03513-9 (ebook) kc Hi Folks, I'm teaching systems analysis at SILS (UNC CH) this semester. Though the course is required for the IS degree, it's not required for the LS degree. However, the majority of my students this semester are LS. And the vast majority are women. Apropos of the part of the thread that dealt with numbers: For those of you who came into this community and at some point went through a MSLS or MSIS program I am wondering if there are things I could try to do that might have an impact on better aligning the ratio of men to women in code4lib and the technology end of the field in general to that in the general population? Was there a moment of clarity? A person who said or modeled the right thing? A project that helped uncover a skill you didn't know you had? And, I am not just interested in what I can do through one class, but also what the curriculum and school could do more holistically. Thanks, Tim -- Karen Coyle kco...@kcoyle.net http://kcoyle.net ph: 1-510-540-7596 m: 1-510-435-8234 skype: kcoylenet -- Karen Coyle kco...@kcoyle.net http://kcoyle.net ph: 1-510-540-7596 m: 1-510-435-8234 skype: kcoylenet
Re: [CODE4LIB] back to minorities question, seeking guidance
ERic, see what I wrote to Cary. Again, math is not the only route to beautiful solutions. It is not the only rigorous thinking. These hegemonic arguments are beneath our intelligence. - kc On 2/22/13 8:53 AM, Eric Lease Morgan wrote: On Feb 22, 2013, at 11:39 AM, Cary Gordon listu...@chillco.com wrote: Is a solid math background necessary to program? Of course not. Sooner or later though, programmers need a solid understanding of logic. I concur. The reason mathematics is so closely tied to computer programming is because both mathematics and computer programing require rigorous and systematic thinking. Both mathematics and computer programming start out with a simple and rudimentary set of syntax and semantics. Improper use of the syntax outputs nothing. Poor semantics creates confusion. Use them correctly, and systems are created. It is a lot like music as well. Here is the tool -- a flute. Here are the notes it can play. Combine the notes to create beautiful music. Combine the functions of computers to create beautiful solutions. Combine the elements of mathematics to create beautiful descriptions. -- Eric Lease Morgan -- Karen Coyle kco...@kcoyle.net http://kcoyle.net ph: 1-510-540-7596 m: 1-510-435-8234 skype: kcoylenet
Re: [CODE4LIB] back to minorities question, seeking guidance
Sadly Karen, I can't take credit for recommending the publication you mentioned, but I would like to thank whoever did. It looks really great. On Fri, Feb 22, 2013 at 10:30 AM, Karen Coyle li...@kcoyle.net wrote: On 2/21/13 7:48 PM, Emily Morton-Owens wrote: This was just the right thing to say, because he was connecting it to something that I consider myself talented at (languages), rather than something I don't (math). I want to clear up the math is hard and programming is math myths. First, the ratio of women to men in graduate math programs is approaching 50/50, although women are still struggling to be hired and gain tenure in math departments. So math is hard for many of us, but it's not necessarily a gender thing. (I'm looking for the cite for this -- I've done too much random reading recently and didn't mark this. May be book below.) Math skills are not required for programming. There was a time when silicon valley was desperate for programmers, and some companies advertised that they were looking for folks with music skills and they would teach them programming -- because they had found that musicians make for good programmers. It's the ability to deal with complex patterns that makes a difference. Which is why it annoys me when programming instruction begins with a list of mathematical functions that most programmers will never need. I believe that Rosy was the first to recommend this, but the IEEE publication: Gender Codes - why women are leaving computing/ edited by Thomas Misa, 2010 is essential reading. You can get it as a Kindle or Nook book. isbn 978-0470-59719-4 (paper) 978-1118-03513-9 (ebook) kc Hi Folks, I'm teaching systems analysis at SILS (UNC CH) this semester. Though the course is required for the IS degree, it's not required for the LS degree. However, the majority of my students this semester are LS. And the vast majority are women. Apropos of the part of the thread that dealt with numbers: For those of you who came into this community and at some point went through a MSLS or MSIS program I am wondering if there are things I could try to do that might have an impact on better aligning the ratio of men to women in code4lib and the technology end of the field in general to that in the general population? Was there a moment of clarity? A person who said or modeled the right thing? A project that helped uncover a skill you didn't know you had? And, I am not just interested in what I can do through one class, but also what the curriculum and school could do more holistically. Thanks, Tim -- Karen Coyle kco...@kcoyle.net http://kcoyle.net ph: 1-510-540-7596 m: 1-510-435-8234 skype: kcoylenet
Re: [CODE4LIB] back to minorities question, seeking guidance
I do not find drawing a line between philosophy and mathematics to be useful, as they have pretty vast overlap. Plato and Aristotle talked about math, whether they called it math or not. Whether set theory has its roots in math or philosophy is irrelevant. I don't believe that I said that mathematics was essential to programming, and I did not intend to imply that. I have certainly found it useful, but having said that, I find everything that I studied in school, with the possible exception of weight training, useful in almost every endeavor. (My other PE, skiing, is quite useful) I did say that logic is needed, and I'll stand by that. It doesn't matter where you get it. On Fri, Feb 22, 2013 at 8:59 AM, Karen Coyle li...@kcoyle.net wrote: On 2/22/13 8:39 AM, Cary Gordon wrote: While comprehensive specific math skill set might not be necessary in programming, an understanding of mathematics beyond arithmetic can be very useful. Relational database theory, for example, maps pretty neatly to set theory. In fact, Cary, you can do relational databases just fine without set theory. If it maps to set theory when you do know it, that's fine. But in all the years in which I've worked on databases, only one person involved in the design was a mathematician, and she didn't work directly on defining the database design. Just because some of coding can be explained with math doesn't mean that you *need* math to explain it. Mathematics did not invent the concept of sets; you can go back to Aristotle and find, pre-mathematical set theory, a good philosophical basis for that thinking. Mathematics in general delivers a lot of insight into dealing with complex patterns. As do music, language, clothing manufacture and building. And if you may recall, the punch card and the first programming came from weaving machinery. There are lots of activities that use complex patterns. Is a solid math background necessary to program? Of course not. Sooner or later though, programmers need a solid understanding of logic. Yes, but there are many sources for that solid understanding. To insist that the understanding has to come from mathematics is to essentially take a very narrow view of human thought. This is one of the things that bothers me about some proponents of mathematics: there seems to be a view that math is the one true approach. If that were the case, our world would be sadly uniform and uncreative. kc Thanks, Cary On Fri, Feb 22, 2013 at 7:30 AM, Karen Coyle li...@kcoyle.net wrote: On 2/21/13 7:48 PM, Emily Morton-Owens wrote: This was just the right thing to say, because he was connecting it to something that I consider myself talented at (languages), rather than something I don't (math). I want to clear up the math is hard and programming is math myths. First, the ratio of women to men in graduate math programs is approaching 50/50, although women are still struggling to be hired and gain tenure in math departments. So math is hard for many of us, but it's not necessarily a gender thing. (I'm looking for the cite for this -- I've done too much random reading recently and didn't mark this. May be book below.) Math skills are not required for programming. There was a time when silicon valley was desperate for programmers, and some companies advertised that they were looking for folks with music skills and they would teach them programming -- because they had found that musicians make for good programmers. It's the ability to deal with complex patterns that makes a difference. Which is why it annoys me when programming instruction begins with a list of mathematical functions that most programmers will never need. I believe that Rosy was the first to recommend this, but the IEEE publication: Gender Codes - why women are leaving computing/ edited by Thomas Misa, 2010 is essential reading. You can get it as a Kindle or Nook book. isbn 978-0470-59719-4 (paper) 978-1118-03513-9 (ebook) kc Hi Folks, I'm teaching systems analysis at SILS (UNC CH) this semester. Though the course is required for the IS degree, it's not required for the LS degree. However, the majority of my students this semester are LS. And the vast majority are women. Apropos of the part of the thread that dealt with numbers: For those of you who came into this community and at some point went through a MSLS or MSIS program I am wondering if there are things I could try to do that might have an impact on better aligning the ratio of men to women in code4lib and the technology end of the field in general to that in the general population? Was there a moment of clarity? A person who said or modeled the right thing? A project that helped uncover a skill you didn't know you had? And, I am not just interested in what I can do through one class, but also what the curriculum and school could do more holistically. Thanks, Tim -- Karen Coyle
Re: [CODE4LIB] back to minorities question, seeking guidance
I can't tell whether you're agreeing with me, or disagreeing with me, or just riffing off of what I said, but I hope you didn't take what I said to imply that women think math is hard, or are bad at math, or that I presently think I'm terrible at math! Actually, through learning programming, I got into formal computer science, and discovered a form of math (discrete math/algorithms) that I aced! Which would have shocked a younger me. But I never would've gotten there by a path that related coding to math in the way I pictured it at the high school/college level. Math - coding isn't a leap I would've taken. Languages - coding - algorithms worked for me. Maybe for someone else the path would be to relate coding to something else they like, such as business analysis, or gaming, or some other connection that's equally relevant and more personally motivating. A good mentor could find that connection for a student. If we're talking at cross purposes here, it's probably because of the difference between programming and computer science. As others have said, you can get a lot of good coding done with a natural aptitude for logic and pattern, not necessarily math or computer science. On Fri, Feb 22, 2013 at 7:30 AM, Karen Coyle li...@kcoyle.net wrote: On 2/21/13 7:48 PM, Emily Morton-Owens wrote: This was just the right thing to say, because he was connecting it to something that I consider myself talented at (languages), rather than something I don't (math). I want to clear up the math is hard and programming is math myths. First, the ratio of women to men in graduate math programs is approaching 50/50, although women are still struggling to be hired and gain tenure in math departments. So math is hard for many of us, but it's not necessarily a gender thing. (I'm looking for the cite for this -- I've done too much random reading recently and didn't mark this. May be book below.)
Re: [CODE4LIB] back to minorities question, seeking guidance
Emily, no, I didn't mean to imply that you thought math was hard, although that is a myth (remember Barbie Math is hard?) about women. So I wanted to make the point that math isn't any harder for women than men, other than the social prescriptions that lead to Barbie-isms. What does rather shock me is that the response of some on the list is to defend math, and a mathematical view of coding, just when they have been told that doesn't always work for everyone. I will use Bess's talk at c4l13 as an example: paraphrasing Bess: I was going to call my talk being an evangelist for your open source project. A friend who is Jewish told me he isn't comfortable with evangelist because it is a Christian-themed term. So, I changed the name of my talk. Another approach she could have taken was to explain to her friend that 1) his feeling is wrong and 2) evangelist is not only just fine as a term, and is even the best term for what she means. I agree with what you say here: you can get a lot of good coding done with a natural aptitude for logic and pattern, not necessarily math or computer science. But someone will undoubtedly feel threatened by that and will explain that to be a GOOD coder or a REAL coder, you've got to know math. In other words, there's an us and them, and US is better than them. I despair of ever getting through to some folks. kc On 2/22/13 10:08 AM, Emily Morton-Owens wrote: I can't tell whether you're agreeing with me, or disagreeing with me, or just riffing off of what I said, but I hope you didn't take what I said to imply that women think math is hard, or are bad at math, or that I presently think I'm terrible at math! Actually, through learning programming, I got into formal computer science, and discovered a form of math (discrete math/algorithms) that I aced! Which would have shocked a younger me. But I never would've gotten there by a path that related coding to math in the way I pictured it at the high school/college level. Math - coding isn't a leap I would've taken. Languages - coding - algorithms worked for me. Maybe for someone else the path would be to relate coding to something else they like, such as business analysis, or gaming, or some other connection that's equally relevant and more personally motivating. A good mentor could find that connection for a student. If we're talking at cross purposes here, it's probably because of the difference between programming and computer science. As others have said, you can get a lot of good coding done with a natural aptitude for logic and pattern, not necessarily math or computer science. On Fri, Feb 22, 2013 at 7:30 AM, Karen Coyle li...@kcoyle.net wrote: On 2/21/13 7:48 PM, Emily Morton-Owens wrote: This was just the right thing to say, because he was connecting it to something that I consider myself talented at (languages), rather than something I don't (math). I want to clear up the math is hard and programming is math myths. First, the ratio of women to men in graduate math programs is approaching 50/50, although women are still struggling to be hired and gain tenure in math departments. So math is hard for many of us, but it's not necessarily a gender thing. (I'm looking for the cite for this -- I've done too much random reading recently and didn't mark this. May be book below.) -- Karen Coyle kco...@kcoyle.net http://kcoyle.net ph: 1-510-540-7596 m: 1-510-435-8234 skype: kcoylenet
Re: [CODE4LIB] back to minorities question, seeking guidance
The math you get in an introductory programming class is 4th grade math: add, subtract, divide, multiply, mod. It isn't the stuff that matters for big structural problems. And it's not practical. For a few numbers, I can do it faster with a calculator. For many numbers, I can do it quickly with a spreadsheet. If I want to print Hello World I can just type it into a text editor, or write it with a pencil. Why bother to write a program and fuss with a compiler? Pretty much the whole entire entry level programming class for the average class covers using code to do things that you can do much more easily without code. Even a programmer would just use a calculator to add some numbers. It's the opposite of useful. What to start with instead is an open question. When I was a child, Silicon Beach Software released WorldBuilder. This was something like a developer tool to make the kind of games Infocom made after they put pictures in games. I think it may have been derived from an Infocom developer tool. Anyway, it had basic objects you make - rooms, characters, items - and then for each you could attach code to it in a scripting language that was specific to the WorldBuilder platform. So you could call a random number generator from within a room, and based on the number returned, you could call or not call a character (ie. monster). You could attach to a character, the chance to bring a different character instead, and so could have a variety of characters with some probability of appearing. For an item you could give rules about it that change things, like switch one room for another, so that using a key switches a room with locked door for one with open door that allows movement in more directions. It was scripting for simple dungeon games and a simple drawing and photo import tool to make room images and sprites. It's a little worrying that there aren't introductory programming platforms that let someone do something interesting at a simple level (ie. just making a dungeon, based on a map, but not having any puzzles in the dungeon is still creative, and you can show it to someone to walk through), and then have added functionality you can reach via code (ie. probabilities that objects and other characters will appear in a room, items where possessing the item changes how a room works, so coding lets the static map become more interactive). Introductory level programming classes have no practical or impractical but fun applications to the world. Code doesn't do anything better, or faster, or previously impossible until way too far into formal education. Being useless is a huge turn off for me, and probably lots of other people. -Wilhelmina Randtke On Fri, Feb 22, 2013 at 10:39 AM, Cary Gordon listu...@chillco.com wrote: While comprehensive specific math skill set might not be necessary in programming, an understanding of mathematics beyond arithmetic can be very useful. Relational database theory, for example, maps pretty neatly to set theory. Mathematics in general delivers a lot of insight into dealing with complex patterns. Is a solid math background necessary to program? Of course not. Sooner or later though, programmers need a solid understanding of logic. Thanks, Cary On Fri, Feb 22, 2013 at 7:30 AM, Karen Coyle li...@kcoyle.net wrote: On 2/21/13 7:48 PM, Emily Morton-Owens wrote: This was just the right thing to say, because he was connecting it to something that I consider myself talented at (languages), rather than something I don't (math). I want to clear up the math is hard and programming is math myths. First, the ratio of women to men in graduate math programs is approaching 50/50, although women are still struggling to be hired and gain tenure in math departments. So math is hard for many of us, but it's not necessarily a gender thing. (I'm looking for the cite for this -- I've done too much random reading recently and didn't mark this. May be book below.) Math skills are not required for programming. There was a time when silicon valley was desperate for programmers, and some companies advertised that they were looking for folks with music skills and they would teach them programming -- because they had found that musicians make for good programmers. It's the ability to deal with complex patterns that makes a difference. Which is why it annoys me when programming instruction begins with a list of mathematical functions that most programmers will never need. I believe that Rosy was the first to recommend this, but the IEEE publication: Gender Codes - why women are leaving computing/ edited by Thomas Misa, 2010 is essential reading. You can get it as a Kindle or Nook book. isbn 978-0470-59719-4 (paper) 978-1118-03513-9 (ebook) kc Hi Folks, I'm teaching systems analysis at SILS (UNC CH) this semester. Though the course is required for the IS degree, it's not required for the
Re: [CODE4LIB] back to minorities question, seeking guidance
On 2/22/2013 1:09 PM, Wilhelmina Randtke wrote: It's a little worrying that there aren't introductory programming platforms that let someone do something interesting at a simple level Wilhelmina, Would you consider something like ROSALIND to be what you are describing? It focuses a little more on BI but is with basic programming. You learn to doing BI through figuring out your code. http://rosalind.info/problems/locations/ Abigail -- Abigail Goben Assistant Information Services Librarian and Assistant Professor University of Illinois at Chicago Library of the Health Sciences - Chicago (M/C 763) 1750 W. Polk Street Chicago, Illinois 60612 312.996.8292
Re: [CODE4LIB] back to minorities question, seeking guidance
Or something like LiveCode/HyperCard? ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HyperCard; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LiveCode) Because there's currently a Kickstarter campaign ( http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1755283828/open-source-edition-of-livecode) to create an open-source edition of LiveCode for use in education, and if one reads their arguments for why LiveCode is the best way to teach computer programming in high schools ( http://www.runrev.com/education/k12.html), it seems to address a lot of these problems. Also, this: http://www.volokh.com/2013/02/18/hypercard-redux/ Disclaimer: I know nothing about LiveCode, HyperCard, or the people behind it that I didn't read at one of those links in the past few days. Julia On Fri, Feb 22, 2013 at 1:46 PM, Abigail Goben ago...@uic.edu wrote: On 2/22/2013 1:09 PM, Wilhelmina Randtke wrote: It's a little worrying that there aren't introductory programming platforms that let someone do something interesting at a simple level Wilhelmina, Would you consider something like ROSALIND to be what you are describing? It focuses a little more on BI but is with basic programming. You learn to doing BI through figuring out your code. http://rosalind.info/problems/**locations/http://rosalind.info/problems/locations/ Abigail -- Abigail Goben Assistant Information Services Librarian and Assistant Professor University of Illinois at Chicago Library of the Health Sciences - Chicago (M/C 763) 1750 W. Polk Street Chicago, Illinois 60612 312.996.8292
Re: [CODE4LIB] back to minorities question, seeking guidance
Hi Folks, This is a great discussion and it continues to be helpful to me on many different levels. It started late enough after code4lib that I plunged ahead with my class. FWIW, Impostor Syndrome (thanks Jason Griffey) was an eye opener, and a chance for me to offer my own sense of some things. In case it's useful, I reflected that in my experience: *Impostor Syndrome is a common theme in the whole field, not just in technology end of it. *That I think I see mangers and administrators who feel it just as much as fresh graduates, but from the other side. They feel their understanding of technology and shifts in the information ecosystem is atrophying and that these kids keep showing up talking about discovery layers, analytics, solr, and web services when what they think all they know is opacs, gate counts, rdbms, and consortial agreements. *And I gave the students a pep talk. I.e. they're smart, they're going to get good jobs, and that they have gobs and gobs to contribute. And I see this every time we meet or they turn in an assignment. While I *will* continue to aspire to be in a boy band, I loved and will use the idea of emphasizing that you can always get into technology, there is no aging out. As indicated above, I've learned a lot from these discussions and plan to try to put what I can into practice. I'm responding specifically to this thread in the tapestry because it resonates with my feeling about education in general. I once was in a setting/talk with Doris Betts and she was griping about how kids are taught to write and read in many classrooms and homes. Educators begin with the spelling and grammar and what you're doing wrong. When educators should be imparting the fun, the *opening of the door* that written communication offers. It's playful, it's liberating, it's escape, it's transfer of wisdom and emotion. Get them hooked and only then worry about the whys and wherefores. The deal for me is that applications and the systems that undergird them empower us to do more than we can without them. They support human endeavor. Like written language they can be playful, liberating, escape, or support the transfer of information (and wisdom?). If we learn the fun and useful stuff first, we get hooked. After you're hooked, then you can and may even want to follow up with the whys and wherefores. Some of those whys and wherefores include mathematics, logic, and even circuit design (honestly I didn't really feel completely on solid footing until I dealt with logic gates and could map those to on and off). Knowing, later, that there were people doing the things I did and that they had language and theory was something I was ready for. It made programming courses seem not like work but like pulling away the screen and letting me see inside. There are many paths to technology. Mine was being lazy. Being certain there had to be a way to make a machine do the clearly redundant work I was being asked to do in a technical services department. Getting that these things support *us* (until skynet, of course). That the virtual world is really a physical world. That you can do it. These are the things that serve one well when beginning in IT. Of course, I've also come to believe that like all systems, we're good at them when we learn to think like them. And that can be bad and even dangerous. I tend to do apply a specific brand of logic to a lot of problems that might be better resolved via poetry. Remembering that the things we develop support human endeavor is something that serves us well later in our careers when we're journey or even expert. I meet too many IT folks who serve the machines and forget why they're doing so. Thanks so much for all your help and please feel free to keep weaving the thread (or hit me directly if you want to keep it off-list for any of the various reasons that may occur to you; say getting the impression this isn't the right venue). Tim On 2/22/13 2:09 PM, Wilhelmina Randtke rand...@gmail.com wrote: The math you get in an introductory programming class is 4th grade math: add, subtract, divide, multiply, mod. It isn't the stuff that matters for big structural problems. And it's not practical. For a few numbers, I can do it faster with a calculator. For many numbers, I can do it quickly with a spreadsheet. If I want to print Hello World I can just type it into a text editor, or write it with a pencil. Why bother to write a program and fuss with a compiler? Pretty much the whole entire entry level programming class for the average class covers using code to do things that you can do much more easily without code. Even a programmer would just use a calculator to add some numbers. It's the opposite of useful. What to start with instead is an open question. When I was a child, Silicon Beach Software released WorldBuilder. This was something like a developer tool to make the kind of games Infocom made after they put pictures in
Re: [CODE4LIB] back to minorities question, seeking guidance
Hello, Those not well versed in Geometry shall not enter -Plato- Thanks, Cornel Darden Jr. MSLIS Librarian Kennedy-King College City Colleges of Chicago Work 773-602-5449 Cell 708-705-2945 On Feb 22, 2013, at 11:20 AM, Cary Gordon listu...@chillco.com wrote: I do not find drawing a line between philosophy and mathematics to be useful, as they have pretty vast overlap. Plato and Aristotle talked about math, whether they called it math or not. Whether set theory has its roots in math or philosophy is irrelevant. I don't believe that I said that mathematics was essential to programming, and I did not intend to imply that. I have certainly found it useful, but having said that, I find everything that I studied in school, with the possible exception of weight training, useful in almost every endeavor. (My other PE, skiing, is quite useful) I did say that logic is needed, and I'll stand by that. It doesn't matter where you get it. On Fri, Feb 22, 2013 at 8:59 AM, Karen Coyle li...@kcoyle.net wrote: On 2/22/13 8:39 AM, Cary Gordon wrote: While comprehensive specific math skill set might not be necessary in programming, an understanding of mathematics beyond arithmetic can be very useful. Relational database theory, for example, maps pretty neatly to set theory. In fact, Cary, you can do relational databases just fine without set theory. If it maps to set theory when you do know it, that's fine. But in all the years in which I've worked on databases, only one person involved in the design was a mathematician, and she didn't work directly on defining the database design. Just because some of coding can be explained with math doesn't mean that you *need* math to explain it. Mathematics did not invent the concept of sets; you can go back to Aristotle and find, pre-mathematical set theory, a good philosophical basis for that thinking. Mathematics in general delivers a lot of insight into dealing with complex patterns. As do music, language, clothing manufacture and building. And if you may recall, the punch card and the first programming came from weaving machinery. There are lots of activities that use complex patterns. Is a solid math background necessary to program? Of course not. Sooner or later though, programmers need a solid understanding of logic. Yes, but there are many sources for that solid understanding. To insist that the understanding has to come from mathematics is to essentially take a very narrow view of human thought. This is one of the things that bothers me about some proponents of mathematics: there seems to be a view that math is the one true approach. If that were the case, our world would be sadly uniform and uncreative. kc Thanks, Cary On Fri, Feb 22, 2013 at 7:30 AM, Karen Coyle li...@kcoyle.net wrote: On 2/21/13 7:48 PM, Emily Morton-Owens wrote: This was just the right thing to say, because he was connecting it to something that I consider myself talented at (languages), rather than something I don't (math). I want to clear up the math is hard and programming is math myths. First, the ratio of women to men in graduate math programs is approaching 50/50, although women are still struggling to be hired and gain tenure in math departments. So math is hard for many of us, but it's not necessarily a gender thing. (I'm looking for the cite for this -- I've done too much random reading recently and didn't mark this. May be book below.) Math skills are not required for programming. There was a time when silicon valley was desperate for programmers, and some companies advertised that they were looking for folks with music skills and they would teach them programming -- because they had found that musicians make for good programmers. It's the ability to deal with complex patterns that makes a difference. Which is why it annoys me when programming instruction begins with a list of mathematical functions that most programmers will never need. I believe that Rosy was the first to recommend this, but the IEEE publication: Gender Codes - why women are leaving computing/ edited by Thomas Misa, 2010 is essential reading. You can get it as a Kindle or Nook book. isbn 978-0470-59719-4 (paper) 978-1118-03513-9 (ebook) kc Hi Folks, I'm teaching systems analysis at SILS (UNC CH) this semester. Though the course is required for the IS degree, it's not required for the LS degree. However, the majority of my students this semester are LS. And the vast majority are women. Apropos of the part of the thread that dealt with numbers: For those of you who came into this community and at some point went through a MSLS or MSIS program I am wondering if there are things I could try to do that might have an impact on better aligning the ratio of men to women in code4lib and the technology end of the field in general to that in the general population? Was
Re: [CODE4LIB] back to minorities question, seeking guidance
Wilhelmina Randtke writes Pretty much the whole entire entry level programming class for the average class covers using code to do things that you can do much more easily without code. Probably it was the wrong course. I think coding should start with building web pages. A calculator can't do that. Cheers, Thomas Krichelhttp://openlib.org/home/krichel http://authorprofile.org/pkr1 skype: thomaskrichel
Re: [CODE4LIB] back to minorities question, seeking guidance
Tim, This too has been sitting in my inbox, and I've been trying to find time to respond. I have to say that I love your questions. Now that Karen has piped up, I'll follow suit. I've addressed each of your questions below to the best of my ability. *For those of you who came into this community and at some point went through a MSLS or MSIS program I am wondering if there are things I could try to do that might have an impact on better aligning the ratio of men to women in code4lib and the technology end of the field in general to that in the general population?* I have to say that I felt really lucky to have some very smart professors teaching me. More importantly, that they were women (specifically Kristin Chaffin and Catherine Blake who are no longer there, and Diane Kelly who happily is still there). I enjoyed having them to look to as examples, it made me feel like what I wanted to do was obtainable. Looking back I realize that the only male I took classes with on the IS side of SILS was Dr. Losee. That being said, when I looked around the room in my IS classes, the majority of the folks were men. And encouraging men at that -- I was lucky enough to graduate with some amazing men. I think being in a space that had a strong female presence (professors) and an encouraging male presence (my classmates) made me feel less conspicuous as one of just a few females in my class. I wonder if the same would have been true if I had taken classes made up mostly of females. I also agree with what Karen said *If anyone says 'I guess I don't get it' or 'I think this is a stupid question, but...' then your response will make a huge difference.* I think that's the moment to step up and say, *'lots of people don't get it right away'* or *'i'm sure lots of people have that question'*. Sometimes people just need a cheerleader. *Was there a moment of clarity? A person who said or modeled the right thing? A project that helped uncover a skill you didn't know you had?* Again I really think my professors pointing out to me that I was doing a great job and encouraging me to do more was what made me move forward -- Catherine Blake taught me Database II and encouraged me to take the programming class with Kristin Chaffin because she thought I was doing so well with databases. I did, and Kristin opened up a world that I had only dabbled in -- and she too encouraged me to do more. I appreciated that and don't know if I would have done it had it not been for them. *And, I am not just interested in what I can do through one class, but also what the curriculum and school could do more holistically.* So I'm of the mind -- and this is something that almost stopped me from going to SILS in the first place -- that the school should be handing out an MLIS. I wasted a lot of time taking classes that I didn't necessarily need. I wish I could have focused more on classes I loved, but because I had to decide between an IS and an LS (and couldn't) I ended up taking all the required classes for both degrees. If I hadn't been forced into a choice, I would have had more time to focus on the things that it turns out I loved -- databases, programming, and systems administration. That's just my two cents. Hope that helps, Rosalyn On Thu, Feb 21, 2013 at 11:43 AM, Karen Coyle li...@kcoyle.net wrote: Timothy, This has been sitting in my in-box as I try to come up with a reply. I went through library school before coding was an issue, although I did do some statistical work on computers (punch cards). But for me the moment was simply being given a task with the assumption that I would be up to it. I also suggest group work, with students selecting their own groups, or opting to work alone. Group work can be less intimidating than having to ask questions in front of an entire class, especially if the class is coed, and especially if it has a few know it alls who like to one-up everyone else. It's the class dynamic (and how you handle it) that is more important than the content of the class for encouraging women. And it is also the hardest thing to get right. ;-) Pay close attention to your students and what they are telling you about how comfortable they feel in the class. If anyone says I guess I don't get it or I think this is a stupid question, but... then your response will make a huge difference. And don't let the class fall prey to the know it alls. They are absolute poison in the learning environment. Good luck! kc On 2/14/13 8:34 AM, Shearer, Timothy J wrote: Hi Folks, I'm teaching systems analysis at SILS (UNC CH) this semester. Though the course is required for the IS degree, it's not required for the LS degree. However, the majority of my students this semester are LS. And the vast majority are women. Apropos of the part of the thread that dealt with numbers: For those of you who came into this community and at some point went through a MSLS or MSIS program I am
Re: [CODE4LIB] back to minorities question, seeking guidance
Like Rosy, I've been sitting on this wondering what to say, and am now following Karen, even though I wish I had more in the way of anthropological or statistical insight... Anyway. I recommend reading Unlocking the Clubhouse, which sheds a lot of light on the sometimes-subtle factors that disincentivize women's study of programming. I'd familiarize yourself with Boston Python Workshop, Railsbridge, and Hacker School -- not just their curricula but what they do to build inclusive cultures (notably Hacker School's explicit social rules: http://marthakelly.github.com/blog/2012/06/04/hacker-school-day-one/ ). The one time I TAed at Boston Python Workshop, I found the things that had the most visible positive impact on students' engagement and confidence were: 1) Naming impostor syndrome when it arose. Telling people it was a real thing with a name and they were not the only ones to experience it. (People's eyes got really wide over this one.) 2) Modeling fallibility: making it normal and okay to not know everything, to need to ask someone else or Google it. Making it clear you don't have to be omniscient to be a real technologist. (Students' relief over this was so strong it was painful to see.) I'd read http://geekfeminism.org/2012/05/21/how-i-got-50-women-speakers-at-my-tech-conference/. Then I'd try to be very aware of who speaks up in class, and whether you might be unintentionally encouraging some people more than others or allowing some to dominate, and keep in mind that people's silence may have more to do with confidence than competence. And I'd try to avoid reinventing the wheel. The Ada Initiative has done some of this work. So has GeekFeminism. So has Open Hatch. Lastly there's really no substitute for building a real thing that works, is there? Getting that high? Do what you can to give your students quick wins, not only so that they get that high, but so that they can build a self-image of themselves as capable of this stuff (which they may need to persevere as the material gets more challenging throughout the semester...) Andromeda On Thu, Feb 14, 2013 at 11:34 AM, Shearer, Timothy J tshea...@email.unc.edu wrote: Hi Folks, I'm teaching systems analysis at SILS (UNC CH) this semester. Though the course is required for the IS degree, it's not required for the LS degree. However, the majority of my students this semester are LS. And the vast majority are women. Apropos of the part of the thread that dealt with numbers: For those of you who came into this community and at some point went through a MSLS or MSIS program I am wondering if there are things I could try to do that might have an impact on better aligning the ratio of men to women in code4lib and the technology end of the field in general to that in the general population? Was there a moment of clarity? A person who said or modeled the right thing? A project that helped uncover a skill you didn't know you had? And, I am not just interested in what I can do through one class, but also what the curriculum and school could do more holistically. Thanks, Tim
Re: [CODE4LIB] back to minorities question, seeking guidance
Tim, I'll jump in with, from a curriculum standpoint, making sure there are a variety of class levels offered. When I went through my graduate program there was assistance for people who'd never used email, attached documents, created Powerpoints--basic level stuff that was taught by myself and other GAs on a 1-on-1 usually, and there were classes for people who were already systems administrators/programmers/etc. The only mid-level class offered during my tenure was a course on database design and XML. It has proved the most useful class I took. While I imagine the curriculum has changed in the past few years at my alma mater, identifying and having regular offerings for different levels of familiarity would be important to me were I considering programs again. Abigail -- Abigail Goben Assistant Information Services Librarian and Assistant Professor University of Illinois at Chicago Library of the Health Sciences - Chicago (M/C 763) 1750 W. Polk Street Chicago, Illinois 60612 312.996.8292
Re: [CODE4LIB] back to minorities question, seeking guidance
On Thu, Feb 14, 2013 at 8:34 AM, Shearer, Timothy J tshea...@email.unc.eduwrote: Hi Folks, I'm teaching systems analysis at SILS (UNC CH) this semester. Though the course is required for the IS degree, it's not required for the LS degree. However, the majority of my students this semester are LS. And the vast majority are women. Apropos of the part of the thread that dealt with numbers: For those of you who came into this community and at some point went through a MSLS or MSIS program I am wondering if there are things I could try to do that might have an impact on better aligning the ratio of men to women in code4lib and the technology end of the field in general to that in the general population? Was there a moment of clarity? A person who said or modeled the right thing? A project that helped uncover a skill you didn't know you had? And, I am not just interested in what I can do through one class, but also what the curriculum and school could do more holistically. I am de-lurking to say I also really appreciate these questions. I am not a coder or a systems person or anything else like that officially (though I do seem to spend a lot of time on the web committees) -- I'm an academic reference librarian, who has the distinction of being the technical one in my dept. because I am unafraid of my computer. My experience is most of the MLIS's I graduated with -- and me, too -- needed a basic background in CS stuff that we did not have (network administration, simple web programming, basic database stuff), but were also mostly interested in how to be practical in the real library world with it. And so I think the most important set of skills to have is a basic understanding of what underlies the applications we use every day, and what those things do -- and how to approach learning more about things if you need to (I'm not going to remember, say, PHP if you teach it to me in class -- but I may well remember what it is and what it can do and how to recognize it in the wild). The other important issue that I see a lot of when working with librarians is not having a good sense of what's *possible* -- say the tradeoffs between security and flexibility, or making something look pretty versus it being user-editable, etc. (And remember that often means what is possible even though you might be working in a government or academic environment with its own rules -- for instance, the only way I could get away with setting up a server is to do it at home!) Also this may not be as true of students, but many public services folks in the library world may for instance have learned HTML 15 years ago when it was a thing to write your own webpages by hand: but they haven't kept up with web technology over time. So their understanding may be hazy. So: though I wrote faux SQL in my databases class, and that was a necessary and important thing to learn, it would have been more interesting for me to learn how an ILS works, generally. Or what the parts are of a basic digital repository -- even if I didn't get down in to learning the programming language they were written in. Etc. I think for me, I might have ended up on a more technical path than I'm on if it had been more clear to me how technical projects interacted with the aspects of librarianship (reference, collection development, etc) that I loved and figured out more easily. I'll just second what Abigal said too, there are tons of different levels in the MLIS program. I'd poll your class at the outset to see where they are and teach accordingly. And yeah, I don't think many people realize how good technical work can be an approach more than specific knowledge: the instinct for when to google something. -- Phoebe -- * I use this address for lists; send personal messages to phoebe.ayers at gmail.com *
Re: [CODE4LIB] back to minorities question, seeking guidance
I didn't spot this when Tim first posted it, but this question jumped out at me now: A person who said or modeled the right thing? Around the time I was applying to library school, a friend told me Since you love foreign languages and are interested in computers, you might enjoy programming. This was just the right thing to say, because he was connecting it to something that I consider myself talented at (languages), rather than something I don't (math). Also, he suggested it as something I'd enjoy or find satisfying, just on its own. In a library curriculum, you could tie technology topics to technical services/metadata/cataloging topics, which is something students are likely to see as necessary and comparatively unintimidating. That also seems like a realistic model of how a lot of librarians get into coding in the workplace. I don't know if any of the links Andromeda suggested address this, but I see more effort put into getting young women into coding/CS and the high school/college level, and less effort put into reaching out to women who are already in careers. (At least in the context of, say, the Grace Hopper Conference which I've attended a few times--that might be because all the adults there are sort of by definition already in technical careers.) I think some good encouragement could help people realize that while there are some professions you probably can't enter after a certain age, like professional football player or boy band singer, coder is *not *one of those. There isn't some single Rubicon you cross either; you can hop from HTML to CSS to PHP to SQL to Java, and a lot of people have already taken a few of those steps. On Thu, Feb 14, 2013 at 8:34 AM, Shearer, Timothy J tshea...@email.unc.eduwrote: Hi Folks, I'm teaching systems analysis at SILS (UNC CH) this semester. Though the course is required for the IS degree, it's not required for the LS degree. However, the majority of my students this semester are LS. And the vast majority are women. Apropos of the part of the thread that dealt with numbers: For those of you who came into this community and at some point went through a MSLS or MSIS program I am wondering if there are things I could try to do that might have an impact on better aligning the ratio of men to women in code4lib and the technology end of the field in general to that in the general population? Was there a moment of clarity? A person who said or modeled the right thing? A project that helped uncover a skill you didn't know you had? And, I am not just interested in what I can do through one class, but also what the curriculum and school could do more holistically. Thanks, Tim
[CODE4LIB] back to minorities question, seeking guidance
Hi Folks, I'm teaching systems analysis at SILS (UNC CH) this semester. Though the course is required for the IS degree, it's not required for the LS degree. However, the majority of my students this semester are LS. And the vast majority are women. Apropos of the part of the thread that dealt with numbers: For those of you who came into this community and at some point went through a MSLS or MSIS program I am wondering if there are things I could try to do that might have an impact on better aligning the ratio of men to women in code4lib and the technology end of the field in general to that in the general population? Was there a moment of clarity? A person who said or modeled the right thing? A project that helped uncover a skill you didn't know you had? And, I am not just interested in what I can do through one class, but also what the curriculum and school could do more holistically. Thanks, Tim
