Re: [Commons-l] Preferred licenses

2010-07-28 Thread David Gerard 
On 28 July 2010 20:57, Ryan Kaldari  wrote:

> Improving Commonist would be a good start. Especially the installation
> process, which is arcane to anyone who doesn't use a command line.


And OpenJDK is now GPL all the way through. Yay free software!


- d.

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Re: [Commons-l] Preferred licenses

2010-07-28 Thread Ryan Kaldari 
Improving Commonist would be a good start. Especially the installation 
process, which is arcane to anyone who doesn't use a command line.


Ryan Kaldari

On 7/28/10 11:43 AM, Maarten Dammers wrote:

Hi Ryan,

Op 23-7-2010 19:47, Ryan Kaldari schreef:



Fifth, we develop some solid client-side uploading tools so that 
regular contributors don't have to bother with the web interface at 
all :)


What about improving Commonist?
Could be moved to Wikimedia svn so more people can work on it.

Maarten


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Re: [Commons-l] Preferred licenses

2010-07-28 Thread Maarten Dammers 

Hi Ryan,

Op 23-7-2010 19:47, Ryan Kaldari schreef:



Fifth, we develop some solid client-side uploading tools so that 
regular contributors don't have to bother with the web interface at all :)


What about improving Commonist?
Could be moved to Wikimedia svn so more people can work on it.

Maarten
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Re: [Commons-l] Preferred licenses

2010-07-24 Thread David Gerard 
On 23 July 2010 18:47, Ryan Kaldari  wrote:

> First of all, the upload form should not be a venue for educating people on
> copyright and free licenses. As painful as it may be, we need to abandon our
> maternal instincts and assume that the uploader knows what they're doing and
> give them the option of learning more if they want to, not spamming the
> interface with endless explanations and caveats.


Yes. Like so many things on Wikimedia, it's at the point of
overwhelming instruction creep attempting to legislate clue.


- d.

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Re: [Commons-l] Preferred licenses

2010-07-23 Thread Ryan Kaldari 
IMO, the license/upload problem is not as complicated as everyone makes 
it out to be.


First of all, the upload form should /not/ be a venue for educating 
people on copyright and free licenses. As painful as it may be, we need 
to abandon our maternal instincts and assume that the uploader knows 
what they're doing and give them the option of learning more /if they 
want to/, not spamming the interface with endless explanations and caveats.


Secondly, we need to keep it simple. If the uploader owns the image, 
give them 3 options:

* CC-zero (public domain)
* CC-by (attribution)
* CC-by-sa (attribution share-alike)
If they don't own the image, expose the rest of the options.

Thirdly, we should let each user set a default upload license for images 
they own. They get to choose one of the 3 options above in their 
preferences and that option is then preselected whenever the user starts 
uploading an image they own.


Fourth, we leave the old crappy upload interface in place at some 
alternate URL that is linked in microscopic text from the new upload 
page and we rename it "Advanced Upload".


Fifth, we develop some solid client-side uploading tools so that regular 
contributors don't have to bother with the web interface at all :)


Ryan Kaldari

On 7/22/10 7:20 PM, Gnangarra wrote:
LIcensing is a legal contract between the author, wikimedia and any 
reusers we should be ensuring the integrity of the authors choice in 
the matter especially since we are effectively requiring the author to 
abandon their rights altogether.


From what I've just read this is going ahead irreguardless in that 
case I think that there should be at the very least a barrier/flag 
before its usable like rollback, file mover and handful of other 
functions  
where by an editor requests the function then an admin can assign it 
to them. That at least gives an opportunity for a review and an 
attempt at ensuring that the user at least understands what they are 
doing. It also gives us a time stamp/ip/username which we can point to 
that the user accepted/acknowledged that they are agreeing to an 
automated licensing process and accept responsibility for the end result.


A bookmark list of the users common licensing choices would be a 
useful function to include because very few users only contribute one 
type of image, personally I have 3 types that I'd use frequently 
primarily CC-by(own photographs) also PD(self made maps), and 
PD-Aust(old photographs from Australia)


On 23 July 2010 02:55, Platonides > wrote:


Gnangarra wrote:
> Admins have always look unfavourably at deletion request because the
> loader says they didnt intend releasing the work for commercial
use or
> thought they were only releasing for educational use or some other
> reason, we can do that because the person made the choice with
each and
> every upload not us. Automatically prefilling the upload form with a
> license removes the choice/decision to over come that we would
then need
> an alternative check box for the uploader to acknowledge that they
> understand the rights they are releasing.
>
> We need people to freely release media, we need them to do in
such away
> that we can be confident that what ever licensing the uploader
chooses
> it is them making the choice not us.

What about offering a "bookmark" of licenses? So you could save
the 2-3
licenses you tend to use, and still need a click to apply them to the
upload.



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Re: [Commons-l] Preferred licenses

2010-07-22 Thread Gnangarra 
LIcensing is a legal contract between the author, wikimedia and any reusers
we should be ensuring the integrity of the authors choice in the matter
especially since we are effectively requiring the author to abandon their
rights altogether.

>From what I've just read this is going ahead irreguardless in that case I
think that there should be at the very least a barrier/flag before its
usable like rollback, file mover and handful of other
functionswhere
by an editor requests the function then an admin can assign it to
them. That at least gives an opportunity for a review and an attempt at
ensuring that the user at least understands what they are doing. It also
gives us a time stamp/ip/username which we can point to that the user
accepted/acknowledged that they are agreeing to an automated licensing
process and accept responsibility for the end result.

A bookmark list of the users common licensing choices would be a useful
function to include because very few users only contribute one type of
image, personally I have 3 types that I'd use frequently primarily CC-by(own
photographs) also PD(self made maps), and PD-Aust(old photographs from
Australia)

On 23 July 2010 02:55, Platonides  wrote:

> Gnangarra wrote:
> > Admins have always look unfavourably at deletion request because the
> > loader says they didnt intend releasing the work for commercial use or
> > thought they were only releasing for educational use or some other
> > reason, we can do that because the person made the choice with each and
> > every upload not us. Automatically prefilling the upload form with a
> > license removes the choice/decision to over come that we would then need
> > an alternative check box for the uploader to acknowledge that they
> > understand the rights they are releasing.
> >
> > We need people to freely release media, we need them to do in such away
> > that we can be confident that what ever licensing the uploader chooses
> > it is them making the choice not us.
>
> What about offering a "bookmark" of licenses? So you could save the 2-3
> licenses you tend to use, and still need a click to apply them to the
> upload.
>
>
>
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Re: [Commons-l] Preferred licenses

2010-07-22 Thread Platonides 
Gnangarra wrote:
> Admins have always look unfavourably at deletion request because the
> loader says they didnt intend releasing the work for commercial use or
> thought they were only releasing for educational use or some other
> reason, we can do that because the person made the choice with each and
> every upload not us. Automatically prefilling the upload form with a
> license removes the choice/decision to over come that we would then need
> an alternative check box for the uploader to acknowledge that they
> understand the rights they are releasing.
> 
> We need people to freely release media, we need them to do in such away
> that we can be confident that what ever licensing the uploader chooses
> it is them making the choice not us.

What about offering a "bookmark" of licenses? So you could save the 2-3
licenses you tend to use, and still need a click to apply them to the
upload.



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Re: [Commons-l] Preferred licenses

2010-07-22 Thread Neil Kandalgaonkar 
On 7/21/10 10:05 PM, John Vandenberg wrote:

> My upload of non-free "Bulogo.gif" went ahead because it was uploaded
> _before_ I was presented with the licensing dilemma.  Will there be an
> automatic purge of incomplete uploads?

Correct.

When we're finished, it won't even touch the database until you've given 
it a license and appropriately described it and so on.

It may seem a bit weird to upload and then add metadata but this is the 
best solution we could come up with that works in all current browsers. 
It's also a workflow that more people are familiar with anyway.

Previously, Commons has been extremely careful to ensure that every last 
bit of metadata was right before uploading, but not in a very friendly 
way (in our testing, many users lost the data they entered *multiple* 
times before being able to complete an upload).

We also do the upload before adding metadata because it helps usability 
-- the server can give you a nice thumbnail, and by analyzing EXIF and 
the filename it can prefill certain fields. Very modern browsers are 
actually able to do that all in Javascript, so perhaps one day we'll 
perform the upload at the end of the wizard.

Generally, our goal is to strengthen policies around having an 
appropriate license for media, not just for Commons but any MediaWiki 
that needs it.

Currently the list of appropriate licenses is managed in a very ad-hoc 
way, via hacking and then parsing translation strings. Not only is this 
fragile and extremely obscure, it only works on Commons. In the 
UploadWizard, any MediaWiki can configure (a) whether the wiki requires 
a license (b) exactly which licenses (or kinds of licenses) are acceptable.

Of course, nothing stops people from mucking with the license after the 
fact, since it's just a template, but this is a step in the right direction.


> My upload of PD-US "MajorGeneralHood.jpg" hung in the "Describe" phase.

It's a prototype and that tends to happen right now, sorry.

> IMO, the only safe use for a preferred license is in the case of
> 'entirely my own work'.

That was what I meant -- perhaps I didn't make that clear.

> The ability to upload multiple files would be a nice feature, however
> given that the licensing phase of the wizard is simplifying the
> options, the design needs to be careful to ensure that the user
> confirms that all uploads files are of the same license type.

Yes. We have tried to make that very explicit. Some users still had 
difficulties so we have a few more interfaces we want to test about 
this. Stay tuned.

-- 
Neil Kandalgaonkar  |) 

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Re: [Commons-l] Preferred licenses

2010-07-22 Thread Neil Kandalgaonkar 
On 7/21/10 6:50 PM, Gnangarra wrote:
> While default license is a good idea we need to remember that the
> uploaders are making a choice to release their work
>
> With that they should be making the choice and not having us(some
> automated process) do it for them

The discussion was about letting users set a preferred license for their 
own uploads, where it's their own work.

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Re: [Commons-l] Preferred licenses

2010-07-21 Thread John Vandenberg 
On Wed, Jul 21, 2010 at 8:31 AM, Neil Kandalgaonkar  wrote:
> For the new uploader I'm working on[1], we want it to remember your
> previous preferences about what license to use and maybe a few other things.
>..
>
> [1] http://commons.prototype.wikimedia.org/ -- this is JUST a prototype,
> we're changing a lot

My upload of non-free "Bulogo.gif" went ahead because it was uploaded
_before_ I was presented with the licensing dilemma.  Will there be an
automatic purge of incomplete uploads?

My upload of PD-US "MajorGeneralHood.jpg" hung in the "Describe" phase.

On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 11:50 AM, Gnangarra  wrote:
> While default license is a good idea we need to remember that the uploaders
> are making a choice to release their work
>
> With that they should be making the choice and not having us(some automated
> process) do it for them because they are giving away rights to their work. A
> prefilled form could be argued as taking the licensing options away from the
> uploader, and therefore Commons taking responsability for the release of the
> material.
>..

I was going to voice similar concerns! ;-)

The breakdown on [[Commons:Upload]] is quite important.

IMO, the only safe use for a preferred license is in the case of
'entirely my own work'.

If the upload is 'a derivative work of a file from Commons' or 'from
another Wikimedia project', the uploaders preferred license is not
relevant.

The ability to upload multiple files would be a nice feature, however
given that the licensing phase of the wizard is simplifying the
options, the design needs to be careful to ensure that the user
confirms that all uploads files are of the same license type.

--
John Vandenberg

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Re: [Commons-l] Preferred licenses

2010-07-21 Thread Gnangarra 
While default license is a good idea we need to remember that the uploaders
are making a choice to release their work

With that they should be making the choice and not having us(some automated
process) do it for them because they are giving away rights to their work. A
prefilled form could be argued as taking the licensing options away from the
uploader, and therefore Commons taking responsability for the release of the
material.

Admins have always look unfavourably at deletion request because the loader
says they didnt intend releasing the work for commercial use or thought they
were only releasing for educational use or some other reason, we can do that
because the person made the choice with each and every upload not us.
Automatically prefilling the upload form with a license removes the
choice/decision to over come that we would then need an alternative check
box for the uploader to acknowledge that they understand the rights they are
releasing.

We need people to freely release media, we need them to do in such away that
we can be confident that what ever licensing the uploader chooses it is them
making the choice not us.

As for a catergory option how do we distinguish the license choice where we
have two or more different licensing options the Mark Twain example

let say I have access to the a complete set of original books I lay them out
in a display s as to show different features(not a reproduction of each
book) I then categorise it under

Photographs by me -- i use (cc-by-2.5)
Books by Mark Twain -- PD-old

the license because there is effort and originality in the composition I am
the copyright holder of that image the license is CC-by-2.5, I was to then
photograph each book individually and the image was entirely the book/page
then it would be PD, no automotion process can distinguish between these two
images to make a valid choice nor should it again because its the uploaders
responsability to upload the images with the appropriate license.



On 22 July 2010 03:32, Maarten Dammers  wrote:

> Op 21-7-2010 4:48, Neil Kandalgaonkar schreef:
> > On 7/20/10 7:28 PM, Stephen Bain wrote:
> >
> >
> >> Perhaps a checkbox could be displayed when the licence field is filled
> >> with the default preference but the user inputs something else, asking
> >> if they would like to update their preference?
> >>
> >>
> > That might not be too bad. I think I'd put question that *after* the
> > upload was done though.
> >
> >
> Just give the user the option to set a default license for own work
> files. If the user doesn't select own work in the upload form -> don't
> set the default license.
>
> Maarten
>
>
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Re: [Commons-l] Preferred licenses

2010-07-21 Thread Maarten Dammers 
Op 21-7-2010 4:48, Neil Kandalgaonkar schreef:
> On 7/20/10 7:28 PM, Stephen Bain wrote:
>
>
>> Perhaps a checkbox could be displayed when the licence field is filled
>> with the default preference but the user inputs something else, asking
>> if they would like to update their preference?
>>
>>  
> That might not be too bad. I think I'd put question that *after* the
> upload was done though.
>
>
Just give the user the option to set a default license for own work 
files. If the user doesn't select own work in the upload form -> don't 
set the default license.

Maarten


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Re: [Commons-l] Preferred licenses

2010-07-20 Thread Neil Kandalgaonkar 
On 7/20/10 7:28 PM, Stephen Bain wrote:

> Perhaps a checkbox could be displayed when the licence field is filled
> with the default preference but the user inputs something else, asking
> if they would like to update their preference?
>

That might not be too bad. I think I'd put question that *after* the 
upload was done though.

-- 
Neil Kandalgaonkar  |) 

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Re: [Commons-l] Preferred licenses

2010-07-20 Thread Neil Kandalgaonkar 
On 7/20/10 5:46 PM, Sage Ross wrote:

> My preferred behavior would be:
> * If no license is selected under preferences, then it remembers what
> you chose last time.
> * If a license is selected under preferences, then it sticks with that
> one even if you choose a different one for individual uploads.

I thought of doing this, but then I realized this means I effectively 
have to have *two* preferences.

   When set as side effect of form choice...

LicensePref: CC-BY-SA-30
LicensePrefDontUpdateOnChoose: false / empty

   When set by preference:

LicensePref: CC-BY-SA-30
LicensePrefDontUpdateOnChoose: true

Which seems slightly silly, to have a preference about a preference. 
We're supposed to think very, very hard before adding new prefs to 
MediaWiki.


-- 
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Re: [Commons-l] Preferred licenses

2010-07-20 Thread Stephen Bain 
On Wed, Jul 21, 2010 at 10:46 AM, Sage Ross
 wrote:
>
> My preferred behavior would be:
> * If no license is selected under preferences, then it remembers what
> you chose last time.
> * If a license is selected under preferences, then it sticks with that
> one even if you choose a different one for individual uploads.
>
> My default preference stays the same, but for various reasons I
> sometimes want or need to deviate from that.  I would find it
> frustrating if the preference that I set manually got changed every
> time I used a different choice for a single upload.

Perhaps a checkbox could be displayed when the licence field is filled
with the default preference but the user inputs something else, asking
if they would like to update their preference?

-- 
Stephen Bain
stephen.b...@gmail.com

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Re: [Commons-l] Preferred licenses

2010-07-20 Thread Lars Aronsson 
On 07/21/2010 12:31 AM, Neil Kandalgaonkar wrote:
> For the new uploader I'm working on[1], we want it to remember your
> previous preferences about what license to use and maybe a few other things.
>
> Here's what I'm thinking about:
>
> - We add a new preference for preferred license.
> - If present, this prefills the upload form with a license.
> - If absent, no license is prefilled.
>
> - Whatever you pick in this form overwrites the preference. That is,
> uploading a file has the side effect of storing a preference for the
> next time.
>
> I realize this doesn't capture every edge case, but the point is to get
> behaviour that's simple enough that most people can actually use, and
> experienced users can work with.

Another way to solve the problem is to always upload new
files "towards" an existing category, and allow categories
to carry a default license. Users who want to upload their
own photos, should first create a category:photos_by_user_XYZ
and set a default license for this category. This could be
done as part of creating a new account.

If I'm uploading scanned books by Mark Twain, I would
upload them towards category:Books_by_Mark_Twain,
which should contain some PD template, and this would
not depend on my personally preferred license.

If a user wants to upload some photos with one license,
and other illustrations with another license, they could
simply create two categories.

This scheme is not in conflict with yours. You could
use the category's preferred license as the initial
default and fallback to the user's preferred license.


-- 
   Lars Aronsson (l...@aronsson.se)
   Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se



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Re: [Commons-l] Preferred licenses

2010-07-20 Thread Sage Ross 
On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 6:31 PM, Neil Kandalgaonkar  wrote:
> For the new uploader I'm working on[1], we want it to remember your
> previous preferences about what license to use and maybe a few other things.
>
> Here's what I'm thinking about:
>
> - We add a new preference for preferred license.
>   - If present, this prefills the upload form with a license.
>   - If absent, no license is prefilled.
>
> - Whatever you pick in this form overwrites the preference. That is,
> uploading a file has the side effect of storing a preference for the
> next time.

My preferred behavior would be:
* If no license is selected under preferences, then it remembers what
you chose last time.
* If a license is selected under preferences, then it sticks with that
one even if you choose a different one for individual uploads.

My default preference stays the same, but for various reasons I
sometimes want or need to deviate from that.  I would find it
frustrating if the preference that I set manually got changed every
time I used a different choice for a single upload.

-Sage

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