Re: emulator something like greenphone vmware?

[Rodney Arne Karlsen]

On Friday 26 January 2007 08:12, Richi Plana wrote:
> On Thu, 2007-01-25 at 19:08 -0700, Richi Plana wrote:
> > If I understand the original poster correctly, he's looking for a
> > hardware emulator. Personally, I would like to see an emulator for the
> > Samsung s3c2410 as well. What instruction set does it use? Its own? ARM?
> > Is there an emulator? Can the emulator be set to emulate all the devices
> > (or whatever is attached to the host computer)?
>
> Well, apparently the Samsung S3C2410 runs ARM920T. Is there an existing,
> free software emulator for the ARM920T on linux? Or how about projects
> in-the-works? I Googled a few related keywords but couldn't find
> anything.
> --
>
> Richi
>
>
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Hi all

A quick look in Gentoo's portage shows an emulator called SoftGun 
(http://softgun.sourceforge.net/) which is an ARM emulator. Not sure if it 
will be helpfull here, but it might be a place to start looking.

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Re: WiFi

[Gabriel Ambuehl]

On Friday 26 January 2007 06:35:41 Richi Plana wrote:
> I guess it's just as well that the first version didn't contain WiFi as
> the specs for 802.11n seems all but finished
> (http://linuxdevices.com/news/NS9415304733.html). Hopefully Intel and
> Atheros come out with embeddable chips and release the drivers. Intel
> might actually stick to its words and release the specs or the source
> for a linux driver for their chipset.

Not sure just how 802.11n is useful on a *phone*. Just about everything the 
CPU can reasonably be expected to handle runs just fine on 11G


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Re: emulator something like greenphone vmware?

[Denis Kot]

No, I don't need hardware emulator. I need "interface emulator" :).
Where I can play with phone's interface and maybe onboard software w/o
buying the phone. It's ok if it will be compiled for i386 or whatever.

2007/1/26, Richi Plana <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

On Thu, 2007-01-25 at 21:14 +0100, Rodolphe Ortalo wrote:
> Le jeudi 25 janvier 2007 à 10:20 +0200, Denis Kot a écrit :
> > Hi all
> > I did searching by lists but didn't find anything about emulator, so
> > my question is:
> > is there will be something like emulator like greenphone has? so I
> > (and others) can play with phone virtualy and make decision to buy it
> > or not.
>
> If I understood correctly, the simplest way is to use xoo (nested X11
> server with surrounding decoration) and run OpenMoko applications (Intel
> version) on it.

If I understand the original poster correctly, he's looking for a
hardware emulator. Personally, I would like to see an emulator for the
Samsung s3c2410 as well. What instruction set does it use? Its own? ARM?
Is there an emulator? Can the emulator be set to emulate all the devices
(or whatever is attached to the host computer)?
--

Richi



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Re: celluar data network speed comparison WAS: Re: verizon and openmoko

[Gabriel Ambuehl]

On Friday 26 January 2007 02:32:53 Todd W wrote:
> OpenMoko is definitely another great tool for the toolbox, but just so
> everyone knows, there are already much more advanced wireless data
> interfaces available.

Comparing EVDO to GSM is like comparing modern trucks to steam locomotives. 
There's UMTS and HSDPA (which would then likely be the equivalent of a TGV 
like high speed train), you know...


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Re: dialer interface questions

[Jeff Andros]

hmmm, I think all we're really doing is searching multiple lists... so I
think a case could be made that this doesn't apply, I've got a vague idea
about how some of the patent stuff works, but there's orders of magnitude
more that I don't know compared to what I do.

anyways, you've got a right to be proud if you worked on this, from the
little I can see on their site, it looks really tight... I hope you can give
us a hand with this stuff without getting yourself in trouble.

Thanks

On 1/25/07, Richi Plana <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


I don't mean to toot my own horn (up till June of 2006, I worked for Zi
Corporation as a developer), but you should really check out Qix
. Unfortunately, most of that stuff is
likely patented. I'm not even sure how I can go about developing for
OpenMoko since I worked as an embedded software engineer at Zi.

At any rate, Qix is fantastic. I'd rather not talk about it (since I
might mention something not official), but do go read about it on their
web site and discuss how we could come up with a better interface that
doesn't violate their patent.

On Thu, 2007-01-25 at 23:28 -0700, Jeff Andros wrote:
> something I've been wondering about for a long time, but haven't
> asked:
>
> in the interface shots, it looks like the phone is looking up contacts
> as you type... or maybe it's just showing a list of recent/common
> contacts.  if it's just showing a list of recent/favorite contacts,
> that's cool, we can change it after the release, but it would be
> pretty sweet if the phone could look up people as you type via some
> kind of lookup method(T9/start dialing a number that's stored in the
> phonebook/call lists and it completes it/other ideas that I haven't
> come up with).  in other words, whether you want a phone number you
> have memorized or a person's name via T9/multipress you just start
> typing and the list below starts getting pared down
>
> my other thought is to enable the dialer to look up a phone number via
> internet directories... I understand you can't make a data and a voice
> call at the same time, but it would be nice sometimes to see that it's
> some business calling... or to have the name of a previous caller
> filled in after the call (wouldn't have to go "who was 602-555-8956 on
> monday at 12:00?").
>
> I'll put these up on the wiki, but I wanted to know if there was any
> feedback on this.
> anyways, not trying to contribute to the noise, but those have been
> kind of sizzling on the back burner for a while now, wanted to get
> them off before they burned (because that really stinks up the place)
--

Richi


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O|||O
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Re: dialer interface questions

[Richi Plana]

I don't mean to toot my own horn (up till June of 2006, I worked for Zi
Corporation as a developer), but you should really check out Qix
. Unfortunately, most of that stuff is
likely patented. I'm not even sure how I can go about developing for
OpenMoko since I worked as an embedded software engineer at Zi.

At any rate, Qix is fantastic. I'd rather not talk about it (since I
might mention something not official), but do go read about it on their
web site and discuss how we could come up with a better interface that
doesn't violate their patent.

On Thu, 2007-01-25 at 23:28 -0700, Jeff Andros wrote:
> something I've been wondering about for a long time, but haven't
> asked:
> 
> in the interface shots, it looks like the phone is looking up contacts
> as you type... or maybe it's just showing a list of recent/common
> contacts.  if it's just showing a list of recent/favorite contacts,
> that's cool, we can change it after the release, but it would be
> pretty sweet if the phone could look up people as you type via some
> kind of lookup method(T9/start dialing a number that's stored in the
> phonebook/call lists and it completes it/other ideas that I haven't
> come up with).  in other words, whether you want a phone number you
> have memorized or a person's name via T9/multipress you just start
> typing and the list below starts getting pared down 
> 
> my other thought is to enable the dialer to look up a phone number via
> internet directories... I understand you can't make a data and a voice
> call at the same time, but it would be nice sometimes to see that it's
> some business calling... or to have the name of a previous caller
> filled in after the call (wouldn't have to go "who was 602-555-8956 on
> monday at 12:00?"). 
> 
> I'll put these up on the wiki, but I wanted to know if there was any
> feedback on this.
> anyways, not trying to contribute to the noise, but those have been
> kind of sizzling on the back burner for a while now, wanted to get
> them off before they burned (because that really stinks up the place) 
--

Richi


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Re: idea for Neo 2nd generation: Accelerometer

[Jeff Andros]

as I understand it, you can get more value out of the accellerometer than
that

in the simplest case, we know a gps can be off by a certain percent.  say
you leave the phone still for a long time, you could average the error and
get more precise over time (yeah, there'll be some skew... but we can trust
the law of averages to help us out some)

now, say you were aware of the motion of the device, you could still account
for that motion in the averaging process (A-meter says I've gone 2 feet, gps
says I've gone 3... pretty safe to say I'm between those)

one of the real weaknesses of the accellerometer(INS) are long-term
integration errors, and the biggest weakness of gps is short term
precision... put the two together and they complement each other REALLY
well.  our (US) military has been using this combination for years with
really great(horrible?) results... it'd be great to put this to a peaceful
use as well
--
Jeff
O|||O

On 1/25/07, Marcus Bauer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


On Thu, 2007-01-25 at 20:00 +0100, Ortwin Regel wrote:
> The only situation where I can see the
> accelerometer being really useful is where Apple is using it: For
> changing the screen orientation of things according to how you hold
> the phone.

An accelerometer is a nice to have for navigation too. When losing the
GPS signal, i.e. in a tunnel, you can go on doing dead reckoning.

And it helps to get the vector map data coordinated with the GPS
position.


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Re: LiMo foundation

[Richi Plana]

On Thu, 2007-01-25 at 16:02 -0500, Anthony Taylor wrote:
> Well, now. This is interesting:
> 
> http://www.limofoundation.org/sf/sfmain/do/home

I would like to know whether OpenMoko intends to meander its way towards
following one of the eventual standards. Personally, I'd like to see a
common platform that developers can develop to. When an ecosystem like
this is starting out, I don't think it's such a good idea to have more
than 1 or 2 choices. It makes it easier for well-established companies
with clout (WinCE? Symbian?) to stomp out competition if they're all
small and busy with in-fighting. Just browse down to the bottom of this
article: http://linuxdevices.com/news/NS2923387573.html ... 'Mobile
Linux "standards" -- an embarrassment of niches?'

I was just browsing through Planet Gnome a few days ago when someone
asked why the Neo1973 wasn't using Maemo ... another fine and open
application / development platform. As a developer and user, I find the
scattered, non-cooperative efforts towards developing embedded Linux
devices, in general, and Linux-based phones, specifically, to be
appalling.

Don't get me wrong. I've already decided to contribute my time and
effort towards developing for OpenMoko because it's the first
Linux-based cellphone to offer an open development platform and is cheap
enough that I can afford it (the ImCoSys doesn't count 'cause I can't
even buy the blasted thing). But it saddens me to think of how the same
apps get written over and over again just because they're on different
platforms (even though the underlying kernel is still Linux) and none of
these efforts go towards helping each other much.
--

Richi


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RE: celluar data network speed comparison WAS: Re: verizon and openmoko

[Dean Collins]

Thanks Todd, I'm sure the Qualcomm investors will be pleased :)

 

Regards,

Dean Collins
Cognation Pty Ltd
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
+1-212-203-4357 Ph
+1-917-207-3420 Mb
+61-2-9016-5642 (Sydney in-dial).


-Original Message-
From: Todd W [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Thursday, 25 January 2007 8:33 PM
To: Dean Collins; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; community@lists.openmoko.org
Subject: celluar data network speed comparison WAS: Re: verizon and
openmoko


From: "Dean Collins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


> It doesn't make sense for FIC to offer a CDMA handset just for the
USA,
> it's a dieing technology and GSM is more widely operated in almost all
> countries outside of the USA.

 Hello,

Contrarily, this is FUD. The only way CDMA is dieing is because it is
being
upgraded to allow greater upload speeds (among other things). Also, the
new
network is backwards compatible, so saying it is dieing is... simply
put,
wrong.

To put things in perspective, GSM's download speeds are slower than
EVDO's
current upload speeds.

On my Qualcomm PPC 6700, I can run IRC (group chat), IM (individual
chat),
browse the web, and SSH (secure shell), and terminal services all at the
same time. Or if I want, I can connect my phone to my laptop, and
instantiate arbitrary network traffic that way.

Oh, and it has a WiFi client in it. I hardly use it, because the EVDO
network performs my network intensive tasks quite acceptably :-)

You'd be hard pressed to perform all of these tasks simultaneously on a
CDMA
network.

Indeed, for this reason alone myself and many others will not be
acquiring
an iPhone:

http://www.informationweek.com/news/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=19690020
0

For those of you who skipped the article, here is the first line of the
story:

"The first customers of Apple's iPhone won't be traveling in the fast
broadband lane much of the time. Transmission speeds over Cingular
Wireless's Edge data network often drop down to dial-up speeds."

OpenMoko fills the void of open developer access, but for me the slow
data
networks provided to it still make my Windows Mobile 5 device MUCH more
attractive.

Thats why Sprint has things like SprintTV and Verizon thier YouTube
interface and Cingular has none of these.

OpenMoko is definitely another great tool for the toolbox, but just so
everyone knows, there are already much more advanced wireless data
interfaces available.

Todd W.



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dialer interface questions

[Jeff Andros]

something I've been wondering about for a long time, but haven't asked:

in the interface shots, it looks like the phone is looking up contacts as
you type... or maybe it's just showing a list of recent/common contacts.  if
it's just showing a list of recent/favorite contacts, that's cool, we can
change it after the release, but it would be pretty sweet if the phone could
look up people as you type via some kind of lookup method(T9/start dialing a
number that's stored in the phonebook/call lists and it completes it/other
ideas that I haven't come up with).  in other words, whether you want a
phone number you have memorized or a person's name via T9/multipress you
just start typing and the list below starts getting pared down

my other thought is to enable the dialer to look up a phone number via
internet directories... I understand you can't make a data and a voice call
at the same time, but it would be nice sometimes to see that it's some
business calling... or to have the name of a previous caller filled in after
the call (wouldn't have to go "who was 602-555-8956 on monday at 12:00?").

I'll put these up on the wiki, but I wanted to know if there was any
feedback on this.
anyways, not trying to contribute to the noise, but those have been kind of
sizzling on the back burner for a while now, wanted to get them off before
they burned (because that really stinks up the place)

--
Jeff
O|||O
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Re: emulator something like greenphone vmware?

[Richi Plana]

On Thu, 2007-01-25 at 19:08 -0700, Richi Plana wrote:
> If I understand the original poster correctly, he's looking for a
> hardware emulator. Personally, I would like to see an emulator for the
> Samsung s3c2410 as well. What instruction set does it use? Its own? ARM?
> Is there an emulator? Can the emulator be set to emulate all the devices
> (or whatever is attached to the host computer)?

Well, apparently the Samsung S3C2410 runs ARM920T. Is there an existing,
free software emulator for the ARM920T on linux? Or how about projects
in-the-works? I Googled a few related keywords but couldn't find
anything.
--

Richi


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Re: WiFi

[Richi Plana]

On Sun, 2007-01-21 at 15:11 +, Tom Berger wrote:
> I'm new to the list, so I don't know whether this was already
> discussed, but I'm surprised (and a bit sorry) that the OpenMoKo spec
> doesn't include WiFi

I guess it's just as well that the first version didn't contain WiFi as
the specs for 802.11n seems all but finished
(http://linuxdevices.com/news/NS9415304733.html). Hopefully Intel and
Atheros come out with embeddable chips and release the drivers. Intel
might actually stick to its words and release the specs or the source
for a linux driver for their chipset.

I hope the initial prices won't be prohibitive.
--

Richi


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A cool device must have a powerfull e-book reader

[Ketut P. Kumajaya]

I have ported FBReader for Motorola E680i/A780 mobile phone and I am sure 
FBReader author only need a couple hour time to make it run on OpenMoko if he 
has access to OpenMoko device.

http://only.mawhrin.net/fbreader
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Re: Possibilities for commercial software?

[Mikhail Gusarov]

Twas brillig at 01:17:56 26.01.2007 UTC+01 when Ortwin Regel did gyre and 
gimble:

 OR> I share your opinions but try to tell that to some
 OR> developers... :-/ They feel safer if they can bind their program
 OR> to only work with one hotsync ID, one device, one SD card...

I bet it's not the developers, but management who enforces this.

-- 
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Re: Some thoughts about the real importanted dates for OpenMoko/Neo1973 3GSM World 2007 Barcelona this year ...Re: Developers phone also fit for early adopters?

[Marcus Bauer]

On Fri, 2007-01-26 at 03:42 +0100, Robert Michel wrote:
> I don't think that people buy a new phone to going on holiday with the
> new phone - AFAIK the most phones are sold November-January.

People buy phones all year round. And those that do so before their
holidays will come back and make perfect mouth-to-mouth propaganda. And
when November comes the others will base their buying decision on
exactly that. It is perfect leverage at zero cost that you miss out.

I bet that in the christmas season 2008 (not this year) you will have
plenty of phones with GPS and VGA screens. And plenty of big companies
throwing big marketing dollars at it.


> After the flame ware GNU Linux I fear the next flame on this list.
> Marcus your sound was absolutly childish, ego-based and unproductive.

Not at all. The best thing that could happen is a success of OpenMoko
and FIC. Waiting with the phone until after the summer season is a huge
loss in free marketing. Just keep my mail and re-read it in two years.


> On the long term for nobody of us is it important to start in January,
> or March

That's not true. It is a waste of first mover advantage. Once Google
comes out with a phone (unless they buy from FIC and use OpenMoko) the
market gets really tight.

Marcus


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Re: The man behind it all

[Todd W]

From: "Jonathon Suggs" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>



Sometimes it helps to put a face with a name.  Anyway, found this link
and thought the community might want to see who is leading the charge.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRvtAAXTIlg


Wow that's really cool. Very interesting to watch.

The excitement about it is very contagious :-)

Todd W.

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Re: Developers phone also fit for early adopters?

[Jason Elwell]

I'd also like to know if the hardware is likely to change between March and 
September.   I *am* a developer, but that doesn't mean I want to buy another 
phone is 6-8 months :)

-Jason


On Thursday 25 January 2007 19:49, Pranav Desai wrote:
> On 1/25/07, Michael 'Mickey' Lauer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Marcel de Jong wrote:
> > > Hello all,
> > >
> > > I was wondering. I'm not a developer, at least not by profession; I do
> > > have a degree in it but my coding skills are very rusty, I'm a
> > > software tester (TMAP, but not yet certified).
> > >
> > > So I'm not really a developer, but  I'd still like to get me a phone
> > > in March. (can't wait till November or what was it again) :)
> > >
> > > Will the developers phone be ready for usage for non-developers too?
> >
> > Absolutely not, sorry. This is really "release early and often". It
> > will definitely be too rough for non-developers -- that's why we are
> > targetting September for mass market.
>
> What about the hardware, will that be the same for March and September
> ? or can that also change, due to some issue with the developer
> phones.
> I am not a developer in the embedded space, but I dont mind updating
> the phone with new software (kernel, apps, etc.), whenever one is
> released. And I am also fine with it not working sometimes, but it
> will be difficult to buy a new phone in September, coz some chip in
> the developer version doesnt work as expected.
>
> Thanks
> -- Pranav
>
> > Regards,
> >
> > :M:
> >
> > --
> > Michael 'Mickey' Lauer | IT-Freelancer | http://www.vanille-media.de
> >
> >
> > ___
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> > https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community

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Re: Developers phone also fit for early adopters?

[Marcus Bauer]

On Fri, 2007-01-26 at 02:16 +0100, Stefan Schmidt wrote:

> An you mean insulting people and guessing about facts helps us here? I
> don't think so.
> 
> Stop insulting

I'll refrain from harsh words.

>  buy your phone in march

I'd buy it today already if it would be available. 

> and show us what _you_ can do.

I guess you started Schoeppenstedt. Have a look at the following link -
I think you can imagine the amount of work:

http://www.openstreetmap.org/index.html?lat=43.700235601223476&lon=7.271795248877549&zoom=15

I just rendered Schoeppenstedt and uploaded it. Tip for you: the streets
in Schoeppenstedt only get rendered if they have a highway
key/value-pair.

Apart from spending lots of time and energy getting open map data ready
for an open phone, I have the whole OE stack running, have a port of
maemo-mapper running on an iPAQ with CF-sleeve, a desktop version and
would just be happy to get it onto the phone. C, Gtk, gnomevfs,
gdkpixbuf, gconf - all fine with me.

I have been running and developping for familiar, installing it on the
iPAQ via serial line (at least in the begining). I had a look into maemo
and simply believe that OE is the far most advanced platform/build
environment. IMHO it is just so appealing to developers, that you simply
need to get out the bare phone with a bootloader on it and the
developers will flock into the project. 

The differentiation between Universe/Multiverse will still leave lots of
steering opportunity for Sean, Michael, Harald - which is good imho.

Marcus




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Re: Developers phone also fit for early adopters?

[Joe Pfeiffer]

Pranav Desai writes:
>
>What about the hardware, will that be the same for March and September
>? or can that also change, due to some issue with the developer
>phones.

I'm really hoping that V.2 will have some of the ideas that have been
proposed here, especially the compass and camera.

I wish I could be optimistic about wi-fi, but I don't know of anything
coming down the pike that will fix the low power + open interface
troubles that are keeping it off V.1.

I really don't care about accelerometer.  I don't play many games, and
those seem to be the motivation for that.

And I'm *really* hoping there's a good hardware upgrade program!

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Some thoughts about the real importanted dates for OpenMoko/Neo1973 3GSM World 2007 Barcelona this year ...Re: Developers phone also fit for early adopters?

[Robert Michel]

Salve Marcus,*!

On Fri, 26 Jan 2007, Marcus Bauer wrote:

> On Fri, 2007-01-26 at 01:53 +0100, Michael 'Mickey' Lauer wrote:
> > Marcus, please watch your tone on this mailing list.
> 
> It shall be.
It?

Respect is the absolute basic for communication and cooperation.

> The fact that I didn't answer to that mail doesn't mean I didn't read
> it. Should I now say you obviously didn't follow your own annoucements
> and didn't read the topic you set on IRC because you said the phone
> would come out in January?
> 
> But the point is not to get into a fight with you. GPS on a phone is
> still a unique selling point, as is the vga screen. People will be adore
> to have GPS in summer season while travelling. Publishing it in
> September is missing out a whole year.

I don't think that people buy a new phone to going on holyday with the
new phone - AFAIK the most phones are sold November-Januar.

> The competitors wont sleep and there will be at least 20 phones with a
> vga screen and GPS next year.
It's not just the hardware wich count. So it could be an advantage
when thousands of people buy a Neo1973 in Juni and traval with it 
into their hollyday.

> It is the most perfect opportunity for Linux (call it GNU or not) to be
> the market leader. Stop talking about releasing early, just do it. All
> that is needed is a dialing application.

Did you took a deeper look to the roadmap:
2007-02-11   Phase 0: Developer Preview
Why this date?

My guess:
   12-14.February:
   http://3gsmworldcongress.com/
   the most important date of the year for GSM communication.

   So even when 10 devices on the 2007-02-11 would be ready and running,
   it would be great. But just only with dialing application you would get
   laughter in Barcenlona.


   Probably the anouncment that *only* on 11. February the
   devices will give to some developers for free has boosted
   "I will have some of the first" on this list.

   On the other hand I'm shure that Barcelona is a very important
   date, so in the next week, we, the starting community is not (yet)
   so important, like some good talks in Barcelona.


So even when we have a close contact to Sean, Harald,
and even when there is no big marketing department or network provider
dictating when the device has to be ready, I think all of this guys
are under a high stress to have a smart running device ready untill
007-02-11

I head in mind that they wanted to have 100 preproduced devices,
http://planet.openmoko.org/ is saying about 50.
Small number production are quite expensive.

After the flame ware GNU Linux I fear the next flame on this list.
Marcus your sound was absolutly childish, ego-based and unproductive.


We should support the core developer team now with patience.
They need their full energie to bring this baby to the world
so they should get our full support with _patience_
and no stress, nagging or even abuse like your mail!


On the long term for nobody of us is it important to start in January,
or March - let us trust into Sean and his team to do the right in general,
especialy when to ship the first devices.


I was the first one who became active on this list, 
but I wouldn't worry if I would have to wait longer
then others, IMHO you should share my point/approach as well.


It would be a pitty when Linux GNU/Linux flamewares (at the most wrong time)
wrangling who's getting the first and who's getting one for free would
poisioning the atmosphere here on this list. That would kill creativity, 
motivation and the enthusiasm to share and cooperate.

So please everybody here on this list, while waiting for your device,
could you behave in a way that you are supporting the core team,
instead of dispossess them/their energie?

Thank you!
rob






















> 

> Marcus
> 
> 
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Re: emulator something like greenphone vmware?

[Richi Plana]

On Thu, 2007-01-25 at 21:14 +0100, Rodolphe Ortalo wrote:
> Le jeudi 25 janvier 2007 à 10:20 +0200, Denis Kot a écrit :
> > Hi all
> > I did searching by lists but didn't find anything about emulator, so
> > my question is:
> > is there will be something like emulator like greenphone has? so I
> > (and others) can play with phone virtualy and make decision to buy it
> > or not.
> 
> If I understood correctly, the simplest way is to use xoo (nested X11
> server with surrounding decoration) and run OpenMoko applications (Intel
> version) on it.

If I understand the original poster correctly, he's looking for a
hardware emulator. Personally, I would like to see an emulator for the
Samsung s3c2410 as well. What instruction set does it use? Its own? ARM?
Is there an emulator? Can the emulator be set to emulate all the devices
(or whatever is attached to the host computer)?
--

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Re: idea for Neo 2nd generation: Accelerometer

[Bryce Leo]

On 1/25/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Please refrain from making any comments of a sexist or sexual orientation
nature.


What exactly would be "of a sexual orientation nature." He's not
saying that you have to impress ladies. You could impress men, little
children, cats, dogs, goats, or even your neighbors Venus fly trap
that you've been lusting over for the past few decades.

He mocked no one, nor did he force his views on others. He didn't say
that you could only use it to impress ladies he simply suggest a use
for anyone whom considers them self a man and is attracted to women,
or for women who are interested in other women. He didn't say anything
that could possibly be seen as offensive, he only made a suggestion,
he made no statement about sexual orientation, nor did he make
perverse sexual comments. And impressing does not always mean in a
sexual way as you seem to have taken it, I can impress my co-workers
with my wit and that gains me respect, and anyone can do that.

Please relax and think about what you saying and realize that he was
not being hurtful mean or degrading and that you should leave him
alone.

Thank you.

Bryce Leo

**I will clarify for Michael Shiloh and all other parties that "you"
(in the first paragraph of my response) in this case refers to a
general "you" and not "you" as in Michael Shiloh whom I'm responding
to. This clarification should not be necessary however due to his
thinking that the saying "impress the ladies" is demeaning, degrading
or generally bad is what causes me to express this distinction.

And Ortwin I think you're completely right that would be awesome. And
feel free to ignore Michael Shiloh, you did nothing wrong. Just
continue to be respectful and genuine and you'll be ok.

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Re: Developers phone also fit for early adopters?

[Pranav Desai]

On 1/25/07, Michael 'Mickey' Lauer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Marcel de Jong wrote:
> Hello all,

> I was wondering. I'm not a developer, at least not by profession; I do
> have a degree in it but my coding skills are very rusty, I'm a
> software tester (TMAP, but not yet certified).

> So I'm not really a developer, but  I'd still like to get me a phone
> in March. (can't wait till November or what was it again) :)

> Will the developers phone be ready for usage for non-developers too?

Absolutely not, sorry. This is really "release early and often". It
will definitely be too rough for non-developers -- that's why we are
targetting September for mass market.



What about the hardware, will that be the same for March and September
? or can that also change, due to some issue with the developer
phones.
I am not a developer in the embedded space, but I dont mind updating
the phone with new software (kernel, apps, etc.), whenever one is
released. And I am also fine with it not working sometimes, but it
will be difficult to buy a new phone in September, coz some chip in
the developer version doesnt work as expected.

Thanks
-- Pranav



Regards,

:M:
--
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--

--
http://pd.dnsalias.org

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Re: Developers phone also fit for early adopters?

[Marcus Bauer]

On Fri, 2007-01-26 at 01:53 +0100, Michael 'Mickey' Lauer wrote:
> Marcus, please watch your tone on this mailing list.

It shall be.

> 
> You obviously didn't follow the news closely otherwise you would have
> already known about
> http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/announce/2007-January/00.html,
> which clearly indicates the roadmap and talks about September for mass
> market release.

The fact that I didn't answer to that mail doesn't mean I didn't read
it. Should I now say you obviously didn't follow your own annoucements
and didn't read the topic you set on IRC because you said the phone
would come out in January?

But the point is not to get into a fight with you. GPS on a phone is
still a unique selling point, as is the vga screen. People will be adore
to have GPS in summer season while travelling. Publishing it in
September is missing out a whole year.

The competitors wont sleep and there will be at least 20 phones with a
vga screen and GPS next year. The concept of Openembedded is just
magnificent and currently it is a huge window of opportunity. If you get
the production line up and running, just get the bloody phone out.

Somebody posted about the limofoundation today. What do you think
Motorola, NEC, Panasonic, Samsung and NTT are doing? Watching FIC
outgrowing them?

It is the most perfect opportunity for Linux (call it GNU or not) to be
the market leader. Stop talking about releasing early, just do it. All
that is needed is a dialing application.

Marcus


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Re: Need info on AGPS

[Sven Gothel]

On Wednesday 24 January 2007 17:01, Michael 'Mickey' Lauer wrote:
> Hammerhead
http://www.infineon.com/cgi-bin/ifx/portal/ep/channelView.do?channelId=-65315&channelPage=%2Fep%2Fchannel%2FproductOverview.jsp&pageTypeId=17099

They state

Multiple mode operation

* MS-based (calculation of position in mobile handset)
* MS-assisted (calculation of position in base station
* Autonomous (no assistance by network)
* Enhanced autonomous (position computed at mobile device using four day 
assistance data)

So .. it runs without assistance (network .. etc) as well ?

Is that mode software supported ?

Cheers, Sven

-- 
health & wealth
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http://www.jausoft.ca/gpg/
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Timezone MST: EST-2, UTC-7, CET-8 ; MDT: EDT-2, UTC-6, CEDT-8


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celluar data network speed comparison WAS: Re: verizon and openmoko

[Todd W]

From: "Dean Collins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>



It doesn't make sense for FIC to offer a CDMA handset just for the USA,
it's a dieing technology and GSM is more widely operated in almost all
countries outside of the USA.


Hello,

Contrarily, this is FUD. The only way CDMA is dieing is because it is being
upgraded to allow greater upload speeds (among other things). Also, the new
network is backwards compatible, so saying it is dieing is... simply put,
wrong.

To put things in perspective, GSM's download speeds are slower than EVDO's
current upload speeds.

On my Qualcomm PPC 6700, I can run IRC (group chat), IM (individual chat),
browse the web, and SSH (secure shell), and terminal services all at the
same time. Or if I want, I can connect my phone to my laptop, and
instantiate arbitrary network traffic that way.

Oh, and it has a WiFi client in it. I hardly use it, because the EVDO
network performs my network intensive tasks quite acceptably :-)

You'd be hard pressed to perform all of these tasks simultaneously on a CDMA
network.

Indeed, for this reason alone myself and many others will not be acquiring
an iPhone:

http://www.informationweek.com/news/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=196900200

For those of you who skipped the article, here is the first line of the
story:

"The first customers of Apple's iPhone won't be traveling in the fast
broadband lane much of the time. Transmission speeds over Cingular
Wireless's Edge data network often drop down to dial-up speeds."

OpenMoko fills the void of open developer access, but for me the slow data
networks provided to it still make my Windows Mobile 5 device MUCH more
attractive.

Thats why Sprint has things like SprintTV and Verizon thier YouTube
interface and Cingular has none of these.

OpenMoko is definitely another great tool for the toolbox, but just so
everyone knows, there are already much more advanced wireless data
interfaces available.

Todd W.



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Please no spreading flame wars about licence and free software in every thread!

[Robert Michel]

Salve Dave and all others who loves to discuss about eggs from an unborn bird!

I hope that this thread will not blow up like the GNU/Linux discussion,
by people which hasn't consider that Harald Welte is behind OpenMoko nor 
Seans presentation in Amsterdam that making money with OpenMoko/Neo1973 will
be possible.

I'm active on this list since the beginning, as a student very
interested in this project with absolutly trust in Sean and his team
that it will be a very good and open project.

My intention with my mails on this list was starting this mailinglist becomming
active and motivate people to join - to share their ideas. To find
together examples that shows how operfull OpenMoko/Neo1973 could be
when mobil computer, GSM/GPRS, (indoor)GPS, GNU/Linux and good and
creative people come to gether.

Since last Sunday I'm disappointed about this mailinglist - I never
thought that the GNU Linux thread would grow to such a flame war and
including starting become personal.

Huuu - hey did you forget that:
- this project is about creating something new? 
- And that this phone is around communications power based on open
  software?
- That is is about cooperation?

So this means:
- respect for the others,
- patience, e.g. untill this project starts for the public
- and the willingness to join compromises.

Dave Crossland schrieb am Donnerstag, den 25. Januar 2007 um 22:56h:

> On 25/01/07, Robert Michel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> I was
> >> thinking, if the OpenMoko phone had an easy  way for people to add
> >> applications like the Widgets, the average user would like it.  ( I
> >> would be willing to pay the developer after a trial).
> >
> >I guess the most software will be free...
> 
> Many free software projects accept donations, and if you are willing
> to pay the developers after enjoying their software, I feel it is
> important to donate a little.

I've not this feeling about money.

> Free software is about 'without restrictions' not 'without paying,'
> like "free speech" instead of "free beer" :-)

Please do not start here a general discussion here - when you will not
strengthen my feeling that some people start writing on this list with
the primary interest to harm OpenMoko/Neo1973. :(((


You are right, I wanted to write that I expect that the most core
software will be available without paying like openwrt or debian,
this is something that I want to stress because I have the feeling
that some people started to be interested in OpenMoko/Neo1973 without
having using GNU/Linux, yet.

And of course IMHO could a Neo1973 coustomer expect that the core software
will be free for him and get updates, especialy security updates. ;)

So my answer was just for those is unclear what we mean when talking about
apt-get install software
that e.g. Debian is a sytem/distribution with 15.000 precompiled packages,
getting all from one source - I choose between 15.000 programs, can get
them, install and use them without the need to pay 1 cent! 
Totaly leagal - and I get a more secure system, like with most of
commercial software - much more secure then normal 
M$+personalfirewalls+viruscans+shareware sytems.

Why do you started a new "flame war" here and adding the mail adress
of the original poster Marry again in the header?
Do you know what I thought as I wrote:
> > It seems that we haven't scare you away with all our "ideas" "maybe"
> > "next version..."
It seems that we haven't scare you away with this unsake GNU Linux
thread!

BTW please take a look here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harald_Welte


When you claim that everybody who is using free software is bind in honour
to donate (money) to the developers, that are you fare away from the
common sence of GNU/Linux.

You can't publish your software under a free licence and than yammer
that the users have the honour to donate.


AFAIK will OpenMoko not become a shareware portal, where the users
get software with the premission to test it for a while and than to
have to pay the developers.

When the user like the OpenMoko software instead of spending money 
telling others about it, helping others to start with OpenMoko, writing
(positive) about OpenMoko, helping with writing the documentation
could be more productive/better 

And short, when you do not see the sence to spend time without paiment
hacking and development should be fun, and about learning new skills.
Also consider, as more populare OpenMoko/Neo1973 will be, as more 
knowledge and reputation you have with OpenMoko as developer, as more 
likly is that you can get a well paid job like frome a agency which 
likes to  have 10.000 devices with a special software solution.


GNU/Linux adult and since years ready that commerial and non-commerial
projects are thrive and prosper parallel and in cooperation and there
are realy many strategies how a cooperation of non-commerial community
and a commercial side will looks like.

I do 100% trust Sean, Harald and the others that they find a strategie
t

Re: Developers phone also fit for early adopters?

[Stefan Schmidt]

Hello.

On Fri, 2007-01-26 at 01:47, Marcus Bauer wrote:
> On Fri, 2007-01-26 at 01:00 +0100, Michael 'Mickey' Lauer wrote:
> > Marcel de Jong wrote:
> > 
> > > Will the developers phone be ready for usage for non-developers too?
> > 
> > Absolutely not, sorry. This is really "release early and often". It
> > will definitely be too rough for non-developers -- that's why we are
> > targetting September for mass market.
> 
> That's the most braindead shit I've heard since a long time. First it
> should come out in January, now it is September. Do you think the other
> companies are sleeping? Why are you suddenly playing the weenies? Does
> Sean not get the production line up and running?

An you mean insulting people and guessing about facts helps us here? I
don't think so.

Stop insulting, buy your phone in march and show us what _you_ can do.

regrads
Stefan Schmidt


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Re: Developers phone also fit for early adopters?

[Michael 'Mickey' Lauer]

Marcus, please watch your tone on this mailing list.

You obviously didn't follow the news closely otherwise you would have
already known about
http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/announce/2007-January/00.html,
which clearly indicates the roadmap and talks about September for mass
market release.

-- 
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Michael 'Mickey' Lauer | OpenMoko Software Team


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Re: Developers phone also fit for early adopters?

[Marcus Bauer]

On Fri, 2007-01-26 at 01:00 +0100, Michael 'Mickey' Lauer wrote:
> Marcel de Jong wrote:
> > Hello all,
> 
> > I was wondering. I'm not a developer, at least not by profession; I do
> > have a degree in it but my coding skills are very rusty, I'm a
> > software tester (TMAP, but not yet certified).
> 
> > So I'm not really a developer, but  I'd still like to get me a phone
> > in March. (can't wait till November or what was it again) :)
> 
> > Will the developers phone be ready for usage for non-developers too?
> 
> Absolutely not, sorry. This is really "release early and often". It
> will definitely be too rough for non-developers -- that's why we are
> targetting September for mass market.

That's the most braindead shit I've heard since a long time. First it
should come out in January, now it is September. Do you think the other
companies are sleeping? Why are you suddenly playing the weenies? Does
Sean not get the production line up and running?

You constantly talk about "release early and release often", but the SVN
isn't even available. Do you need a huge Carrara-marble tomb-stone with
"Mickey, the inventor of OpenMoko"? We'll give that to you. Really. You
want to make the decisions? Great! Every project needs somebody to give
it directions.

Just get the shit out and stop talking about September. Get the brain
share into it -  nobody will mind if you keep doing the decisions.

This is a great opportunity for Linux/Open Source (add GNU to your
liking. It is called first mover advantage and emerging market. Jeez,
you are Mr. OE, just get that stuff running and the rest will happen by
itself. And yes, it is a good thing if you keep steering it for a while
like a dictator. 


Marcus





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Re: Developers phone also fit for early adopters?

[Joe Pfeiffer]

Marcel de Jong writes:
>>
>> Those of us drooling for one of the early phones, knowing what we're
>> letting ourselves in for, are the beta testers...
>>
>
>Heh, you've got a point there. I know I'm drooling for one of those.
>And if we can somehow backup the phone to do some testing, that'd
>would be great.

As long as rsync works and I've got some hope of recovery if a kernel
install goes bad, I'll be happy.

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Re: Developers phone also fit for early adopters?

[Michael 'Mickey' Lauer]

Marcel de Jong wrote:
> On 1/26/07, Michael 'Mickey' Lauer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Marcel de Jong wrote:
>> > Hello all,
>>
>> > I was wondering. I'm not a developer, at least not by profession; I do
>> > have a degree in it but my coding skills are very rusty, I'm a
>> > software tester (TMAP, but not yet certified).
>>
>> > So I'm not really a developer, but  I'd still like to get me a phone
>> > in March. (can't wait till November or what was it again) :)
>>
>> > Will the developers phone be ready for usage for non-developers too?
>>
>> Absolutely not, sorry. This is really "release early and often". It
>> will definitely be too rough for non-developers -- that's why we are
>> targetting September for mass market.

> But the software needs to be tested, right? You can't exactly expect
> the public to be your beta testers.

Of course not, that's why we have scheduled a 6 month phase where
everyone can buy the phone but needs to be clear that he buys a
developer device, not an end-user device.

I mean, if you want, go ahead and buy one in March. I just want to
prevent false hopes.

Regards,

:M:
-- 
Michael 'Mickey' Lauer | IT-Freelancer | http://www.vanille-media.de


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Re: Developers phone also fit for early adopters?

[Ortwin Regel]

I'll risk it anyway... Guess it'll be a rough ride, then, but I'm up
for that. Can't wait another six months for the phone of my dreams. :P

On 1/26/07, Marcel de Jong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

On 1/26/07, Joe Pfeiffer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Marcel de Jong writes:
> >On 1/26/07, Michael 'Mickey' Lauer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> Marcel de Jong wrote:
> >>
> >> > I was wondering. I'm not a developer, at least not by profession; I do
> >> > have a degree in it but my coding skills are very rusty, I'm a
> >> > software tester (TMAP, but not yet certified).
> >>
> >> > So I'm not really a developer, but  I'd still like to get me a phone
> >> > in March. (can't wait till November or what was it again) :)
> >>
> >> > Will the developers phone be ready for usage for non-developers too?
> >>
> >> Absolutely not, sorry. This is really "release early and often". It
> >> will definitely be too rough for non-developers -- that's why we are
> >> targetting September for mass market.
> >
> >But the software needs to be tested, right? You can't exactly expect
> >the public to be your beta testers. (though in this 'web2.0'-age that
> >seems to be the general approach)
>
> Those of us drooling for one of the early phones, knowing what we're
> letting ourselves in for, are the beta testers...
>

Heh, you've got a point there. I know I'm drooling for one of those.
And if we can somehow backup the phone to do some testing, that'd
would be great.

---
Marcel de Jong

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Re: Possibilities for commercial software?

[Marcel de Jong]

On 1/26/07, Ortwin Regel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

I share your opinions but try to tell that to some developers... :-/
They feel safer if they can bind their program to only work with one
hotsync ID, one device, one SD card... Even if it does not work.
It would be nice if some more developers could be convinced that
selling without restrictions can work. However, that makes a central
marketplace even more important: It has to be easier to find a legal
copy of the game than to find a pirated one.



I think that most developers that are on this list have a pretty
strong opinion against DRM.

---
Marcel de Jong

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Re: Developers phone also fit for early adopters?

[Marcel de Jong]

On 1/26/07, Joe Pfeiffer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Marcel de Jong writes:
>On 1/26/07, Michael 'Mickey' Lauer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Marcel de Jong wrote:
>>
>> > I was wondering. I'm not a developer, at least not by profession; I do
>> > have a degree in it but my coding skills are very rusty, I'm a
>> > software tester (TMAP, but not yet certified).
>>
>> > So I'm not really a developer, but  I'd still like to get me a phone
>> > in March. (can't wait till November or what was it again) :)
>>
>> > Will the developers phone be ready for usage for non-developers too?
>>
>> Absolutely not, sorry. This is really "release early and often". It
>> will definitely be too rough for non-developers -- that's why we are
>> targetting September for mass market.
>
>But the software needs to be tested, right? You can't exactly expect
>the public to be your beta testers. (though in this 'web2.0'-age that
>seems to be the general approach)

Those of us drooling for one of the early phones, knowing what we're
letting ourselves in for, are the beta testers...



Heh, you've got a point there. I know I'm drooling for one of those.
And if we can somehow backup the phone to do some testing, that'd
would be great.

---
Marcel de Jong

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Possibilities for commercial software?

[Ortwin Regel]

I share your opinions but try to tell that to some developers... :-/
They feel safer if they can bind their program to only work with one
hotsync ID, one device, one SD card... Even if it does not work.
It would be nice if some more developers could be convinced that
selling without restrictions can work. However, that makes a central
marketplace even more important: It has to be easier to find a legal
copy of the game than to find a pirated one.

On 1/26/07, Marcel de Jong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Hello Ortwin,

On 1/25/07, Ortwin Regel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I like open source and stuff but some things, especially games, are
> closed in many cases. What are the possibilities for selling closed
> software for OpenMoko devices? Will there be a central online
> marketplace?
I think that there will be places for people to sell closed software.

> What about DRM, is there a way to bind a program to a
> sync ID like it's usually done with PalmOS or to a device ID? (It
> should be possible to bind it to an SD card ID, right?) Any creative
> ideas how to solve the usual issues people have with stupid DRM
> systems etc. and still being able to get money for software
> development?

It's pretty clear that DRM does not work (just look at the recent
'cracking' of HDDVD and BluRay discs by one person). And I personally
hope that there will be no DRM on this device. (which would be pretty
hard, considering that almost everything about the phone is open
source)
My experience with DRM'ed products is that they only hinder your
honest customers, and not the pirates. If someone wants to get your
software for free, chance are (s)he can get it.

The best way is just to trust your customers.

sincerely,
Marcel de Jong

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Re: Developers phone also fit for early adopters?

[Joe Pfeiffer]

Marcel de Jong writes:
>On 1/26/07, Michael 'Mickey' Lauer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Marcel de Jong wrote:
>>
>> > I was wondering. I'm not a developer, at least not by profession; I do
>> > have a degree in it but my coding skills are very rusty, I'm a
>> > software tester (TMAP, but not yet certified).
>>
>> > So I'm not really a developer, but  I'd still like to get me a phone
>> > in March. (can't wait till November or what was it again) :)
>>
>> > Will the developers phone be ready for usage for non-developers too?
>>
>> Absolutely not, sorry. This is really "release early and often". It
>> will definitely be too rough for non-developers -- that's why we are
>> targetting September for mass market.
>
>But the software needs to be tested, right? You can't exactly expect
>the public to be your beta testers. (though in this 'web2.0'-age that
>seems to be the general approach)

Those of us drooling for one of the early phones, knowing what we're
letting ourselves in for, are the beta testers...

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Re: Developers phone also fit for early adopters?

[Marcel de Jong]

On 1/26/07, Michael 'Mickey' Lauer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Marcel de Jong wrote:
> Hello all,

> I was wondering. I'm not a developer, at least not by profession; I do
> have a degree in it but my coding skills are very rusty, I'm a
> software tester (TMAP, but not yet certified).

> So I'm not really a developer, but  I'd still like to get me a phone
> in March. (can't wait till November or what was it again) :)

> Will the developers phone be ready for usage for non-developers too?

Absolutely not, sorry. This is really "release early and often". It
will definitely be too rough for non-developers -- that's why we are
targetting September for mass market.


But the software needs to be tested, right? You can't exactly expect
the public to be your beta testers. (though in this 'web2.0'-age that
seems to be the general approach)

---
Marcel de Jong

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Re: Possibilities for commercial software?

[Marcel de Jong]

Hello Ortwin,

On 1/25/07, Ortwin Regel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

I like open source and stuff but some things, especially games, are
closed in many cases. What are the possibilities for selling closed
software for OpenMoko devices? Will there be a central online
marketplace?

I think that there will be places for people to sell closed software.


What about DRM, is there a way to bind a program to a
sync ID like it's usually done with PalmOS or to a device ID? (It
should be possible to bind it to an SD card ID, right?) Any creative
ideas how to solve the usual issues people have with stupid DRM
systems etc. and still being able to get money for software
development?


It's pretty clear that DRM does not work (just look at the recent
'cracking' of HDDVD and BluRay discs by one person). And I personally
hope that there will be no DRM on this device. (which would be pretty
hard, considering that almost everything about the phone is open
source)
My experience with DRM'ed products is that they only hinder your
honest customers, and not the pirates. If someone wants to get your
software for free, chance are (s)he can get it.

The best way is just to trust your customers.

sincerely,
Marcel de Jong

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Re: Developers phone also fit for early adopters?

[Michael 'Mickey' Lauer]

Marcel de Jong wrote:
> Hello all,

> I was wondering. I'm not a developer, at least not by profession; I do
> have a degree in it but my coding skills are very rusty, I'm a
> software tester (TMAP, but not yet certified).

> So I'm not really a developer, but  I'd still like to get me a phone
> in March. (can't wait till November or what was it again) :)

> Will the developers phone be ready for usage for non-developers too?

Absolutely not, sorry. This is really "release early and often". It
will definitely be too rough for non-developers -- that's why we are
targetting September for mass market.

Regards,

:M:
-- 
Michael 'Mickey' Lauer | IT-Freelancer | http://www.vanille-media.de


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Re: Free This Mailing List! (was Re: GNU discussion (was re:Free your phone))

[Marcel de Jong]

I think we've heard the viewpoints of both sides...

In my humble opinion, this whole discussion (while it showed some good
viewpoints on both sides) is a bit premature. We haven't seen any
documentation from the Openmoko team that suggests that they use one
notation or the other.
As Sean already stated; they will acknowledge the importance of GNU;
how they do that is their decision. So please, let this discussion
die.

sincerely,
Marcel de Jong

On 1/25/07, Renaissance Man <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Are you denying that you lied about people "making demands"? No one has made
any "demands." It is not a personal attack to point out that this is a bald
faced lie.

It appears farcical that you keep adding to this thread while complaining
that it is being continued. If you don't like the discussion, stay out of
it. But I understand why you want to drag the discussion into the gutter;
you can't argue your point of view rationally so you attempt to drag the
discussion down, accuse your opponents of "religious fervour," and then
declare the discussion silly and over.

Renaissance Man




On 25 Jan 2007, at 9:32 pm, David Schlesinger wrote:
 >It might help things if you didn't continue to make bald face lies David.


 Not as much it would "help things" if you'd stop behaving like a
four-year-old, and stop wasting everyone's time with exactly the sort of
"personal attacks" you were whining about just a couple of days ago. You
(still) seem to be the one who's most guilty of making them.

 Consistency isn't your strong suit, is it?



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Developers phone also fit for early adopters?

[Marcel de Jong]

Hello all,

I was wondering. I'm not a developer, at least not by profession; I do
have a degree in it but my coding skills are very rusty, I'm a
software tester (TMAP, but not yet certified).

So I'm not really a developer, but  I'd still like to get me a phone
in March. (can't wait till November or what was it again) :)

Will the developers phone be ready for usage for non-developers too?

greetings,
Marcel de Jong

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Re: Reactions From Other People to News of OpenMoko

[Dave Crossland]

On 25/01/07, Robert Michel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I was
> thinking, if the OpenMoko phone had an easy  way for people to add
> applications like the Widgets, the average user would like it.  ( I
> would be willing to pay the developer after a trial).

I guess the most software will be free...


Many free software projects accept donations, and if you are willing
to pay the developers after enjoying their software, I feel it is
important to donate a little.

Free software is about 'without restrictions' not 'without paying,'
like "free speech" instead of "free beer" :-)

--
Regards,
Dave

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Re: Reactions From Other People to News of OpenMoko

[Robert Michel]

Salve Mary!

Welcome here on the OpenMoko community list :)

On Thu, 25 Jan 2007, Mary Stovel wrote:

> Just a few thoughts.  I recently  discovered  OpenMoko while  
> researching the Apple iphone.  I am not a developer, but enjoy  
> reading this forum.   
:)

> I do not think  the average user knows much  
> about... the concept of locked and unlocked... much less open.  I am  
> your general user, looking for an innovative, easy to use phone 
It seems that we haven't scare you away with all our "ideas" "maybe"
"next version..."

> I was  
> thinking, if the OpenMoko phone had an easy  way for people to add  
> applications like the Widgets, the average user would like it.  ( I  
> would be willing to pay the developer after a trial).
I guess the most software will be free...

> I don't know  
> any average users that care about using their phone to browse the  
> web, but I do know a few that would like having a phone that would  
> let you use one phone at home and away ( like the T-Mobile  
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] project in Seattle)  
Because it will become Bluetooth (yepiieeeh) using Voip at home
will be possibe (to hack..)

> I would buy the  
> OpenMoko phone when it is available, because it has great  
> possibilities and I want to watch it evolve.

You could influence this evolvement, feel free to go on to 
chare your thoughts, questions, whishes or ideas...

Phoning will be an important core function of OpenMoko/Neo1973,
but it will be more than just a mobil phone or PDA or navigator...
it will be a powerfull combination of it.

On a PDA you could have a shopping list. Imagine you and your partner 
would use OpenMoko/Neo1973 than could this be a common task "buy milk"
and the one of both who came first to the shop can buy it and it will
be visual "done" for his partner. 
So no need to call the other one who may deep in stress ("ahh and you
are now calling because of the unimportant milk??")

Have you every used a PDA? Than expect to do all this with the Neo1973
but with the power of Connection and GPS localisation.
Passing a paper show will remind you to buy envelopes...

Or you a shopping organizer will route your through a city to buy
the 3 items you want with the most shortest way...

Beeing on holyday - the Neo1973 could become a tourist guide
"On your right side you see..."

So you were looking for a new phone, 
but OpenMoko/Neo1973 has the potential
to become much more
:))

Cheers,
rob


















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Re: Free This Mailing List! (was Re: GNU discussion (was re:Free your phone))

[Renaissance Man]

Are you denying that you lied about people "making demands"? No one  
has made any "demands." It is not a personal attack to point out that  
this is a bald faced lie.


It appears farcical that you keep adding to this thread while  
complaining that it is being continued. If you don't like the  
discussion, stay out of it. But I understand why you want to drag the  
discussion into the gutter; you can't argue your point of view  
rationally so you attempt to drag the discussion down, accuse your  
opponents of "religious fervour," and then declare the discussion  
silly and over.


Renaissance Man

On 25 Jan 2007, at 9:32 pm, David Schlesinger wrote:

>It might help things if you didn't continue to make bald face lies  
David.


Not as much it would “help things” if you’d stop behaving like a  
four-year-old, and stop wasting everyone’s time with exactly the  
sort of “personal attacks” you were whining about just a couple of  
days ago. You (still) seem to be the one who’s most guilty of  
making them.


Consistency isn’t your strong suit, is it?



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Re: Possibilities for commercial software?

[Robert Michel]

Salve Ortwin!

On Thu, 25 Jan 2007, Ortwin Regel wrote:

> I like open source and stuff but some things, especially games, are
> closed in many cases. What are the possibilities for selling closed
> software for OpenMoko devices?
Nearly the same like with GNU/Linux.

The PalmPilot hasn't DRM and commercial softare hast been sold 
succsessfull - I bought several licence.
For GNU/Linux I have a selfpaid student licence for microstation and 
maple and I would buy other close source for GNU/Linux - 
e.G. a navigation system with good maps. 

Of course would I let this close source software run in a own
vserver guest... ;)

So my motivation is not to get everything for free...
and when the commercial software is combinated with a good 
service.. it would become more attractive :) 

What I would dislike when the service page is full with external
advertisment google.analytics.scripts and that it smells like
that this company is selling my adress, interests and my user behavior.

Greetings
rob


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Re: idea for Neo 2nd generation: Accelerometer

[Marcus Bauer]

michael, when did you last time visit your shrink? you should
immediately make an appointment with him^W it!

believe me michael, "ladies" is by all accounts a politically correct
word.

On Thu, 2007-01-25 at 11:25 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Please refrain from making any comments of a sexist or sexual orientation
> nature.
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> >  Great stuff to impress the ladies! ;)
> 
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Re: intelligent (system-wide) profile switching. gestures and events (Was: Re: Why not switching automaticaly? Re: Gesture command)

[Robert Michel]

Salve Declan!

Maybe is a general system-wide profile switching not intelligent
enough? Of course it will be usefull but maybe there will be more
possible.

Declan Naughton schrieb am Donnerstag, den 25. Januar 2007 um 20:58h:

> Reading this, a potentially handy feature hit me, so I'm letting it out.
> 
> We should (and we probably will/do.. my nokia 6310 or whatever it is
> does, like pretty much all nokias, and all phones) support multiple,

Just a system-wide profile is working, but not so flexible...

People you will have a date with in the next our could automaticaly
become a higher importance

The Screen has 480x640 pixel - good enough for how many pictures 
with names? So there is no need to stay on the low level of a nokia 6310.

> Also, events should be triggerable between/at specific times, and when
> the GPS system notices you've entered/are in a certain area... a 250m
> radius around my school, say, where I'd like to phone to stay on
> silent.

Consider the chance of a voice menue and answering machine - when you
select that your are busy your selection or your calendar can be used
for a smart voice meneu "Hello this is Declan, I'm busy - leave a
message with informations and questions and will care about this in
the next 2 hours - only if it can't wait, press 2."

So there will be no binare black/white solution, more will be possible

So we will play with new posibilities:
- GPS
- VGA coulored touchscreen
- open source
- big creative community
- no filter of a marketing department
- no filter of network provider


Also the list of missed calls
Rob 104 times 20:58h
damm how was this counter this afternoon, 103 or 94?
Did he called now one or 10 times?

And much more on normal phones is unsmart.


We will have much fun and I'm convinced that looking on 
existing phones will not give us so much creativity like
looking on what will be possible withe OpenMoko/Neo1973
and what did I hate most, what did I wish...
what will be smart
And sharing our ideas - reading the ideas and seeing/using the solution
from others will create new ideas it will outperform existing
phone solutions :))

asterisk.org will be a good tool to play on the Neo1973 with new
ideas how to manage calls

We will have much fun, for shure! ;)

Cheers,
rob









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Reactions From Other People to News of OpenMoko

[Mary Stovel]

Just a few thoughts.  I recently  discovered  OpenMoko while  
researching the Apple iphone.  I am not a developer, but enjoy  
reading this forum.   I do not think  the average user knows much  
about... the concept of locked and unlocked... much less open.  I am  
your general user, looking for an innovative, easy to use phone that  
I can use with any provider...which leaves out the Apple iphone.  I  
looked at the Nokia E and N series unlocked phones, but expensive and  
too many gadgets and programs I don't need or want.


  The OpenMoko appeals to me because it is innovative and cool  
looking.   Also, I am tired of having to replace my phone...I have 5  
right now that are useless.  I want a phone that can update and add  
applications that  I want.   I want a phone that I can just slip in a  
sim from what ever provider gives me the best deal.I was  
thinking, if the OpenMoko phone had an easy  way for people to add  
applications like the Widgets, the average user would like it.  ( I  
would be willing to pay the developer after a trial).   I don't know  
any average users that care about using their phone to browse the  
web, but I do know a few that would like having a phone that would  
let you use one phone at home and away ( like the T-Mobile  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] project in Seattle)  A phone that could be used with  
Truephone or Gizmo Project would be great.  Sorry to be mentioning  
the wi-fi thing again.I understand  that will be a future thing  
for Moko.  Or perhaps, one of you has or will come up with an idea of  
another way to connect for free or low cost call.  I use T-Mobile  
prepaid and Sunrocket Voip cancelled my landline 2 years ago.  I  
live in Portland Oregon where free wi-fi is being wired to the whole  
city, thus my interest in a wi-fi capable phone.   I would buy the  
OpenMoko phone when it is available, because it has great  
possibilities and I want to watch it evolve.

Mary


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Re: Free This Mailing List! (was Re: GNU discussion (was re:Free your phone))

[David Schlesinger]

>It might help things if you didn't continue to make bald face lies David.
> 
Not as much it would ³help things² if you¹d stop behaving like a
four-year-old, and stop wasting everyone¹s time with exactly the sort of
³personal attacks² you were whining about just a couple of days ago. You
(still) seem to be the one who¹s most guilty of making them.

Consistency isn¹t your strong suit, is it?


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Re: Possibilities for commercial software?

[Oleg Gusev]

Am Donnerstag, 25. Januar 2007 22:04 schrieb Ortwin Regel:
>
> What about DRM

Defective by design ?

> is there a way to bind a program to a 
> sync ID like it's usually done with PalmOS or to a device ID? (It
> should be possible to bind it to an SD card ID, right?) 
>

Don't forget that all data goes through the kernel.

 Oleg.

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Re: How to get involved (HELP!!!)

[Rodolphe Ortalo]

Le jeudi 25 janvier 2007 à 20:40 +0100, Marcin Juszkiewicz a écrit :
> Dnia czwartek, 25 stycznia 2007 20:02, Rodolphe Ortalo napisał:
> [...]
> > Is it mandatory to use a different build directory or is it possible to
> > do this under the same build dir? (I am trying, but maybe you can save
> > me some re-compilation time...)
> 
> It depends, but I prefer to use one build for dir.

Currently, bitbake perl does not work in the "native" build dir, while
it works with MACHINE="ep93xx". (I did a pull+update with monotone and
retried, but same error.) Without perl, most gpe apps do not build.

Isn't this strange?

> http://www.hrw.one.pl/2006/11/22/my-openembedded-environment-ii/

Thanks for the link.

Rodolphe



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LiMo foundation

[Anthony Taylor]

Well, now. This is interesting:

http://www.limofoundation.org/sf/sfmain/do/home

As posted at Linux Weekly News:

http://lwn.net/Articles/219062/


"To support their goal of creating the world's first globally 
competitive, Linux-based software platform for mobile devices, Motorola, 
NEC, NTT DoCoMo, Panasonic Mobile Communications, Samsung Electronics, 
and Vodafone announced today the official launch of the LiMo Foundation."


First? Oh, I think not.

- Tony

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Possibilities for commercial software?

[Ortwin Regel]

I like open source and stuff but some things, especially games, are
closed in many cases. What are the possibilities for selling closed
software for OpenMoko devices? Will there be a central online
marketplace? What about DRM, is there a way to bind a program to a
sync ID like it's usually done with PalmOS or to a device ID? (It
should be possible to bind it to an SD card ID, right?) Any creative
ideas how to solve the usual issues people have with stupid DRM
systems etc. and still being able to get money for software
development?

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Re: idea for Neo 2nd generation: Accelerometer

[Ortwin Regel]

If you want me to... :-/

On 1/25/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Please refrain from making any comments of a sexist or sexual orientation
nature.

Thank you.

>  Great stuff to impress the ladies! ;)

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intelligent (system-wide) profile switching. gestures and events (Was: Re: Why not switching automaticaly? Re: Gesture command)

[Declan Naughton]

Reading this, a potentially handy feature hit me, so I'm letting it out.

We should (and we probably will/do.. my nokia 6310 or whatever it is
does, like pretty much all nokias, and all phones) support multiple,
renamable profiles, defining ringing tone & volume, background image,
/perhaps Bluetooth profiles/ (which, I must point out, I don't
understand because I've never used BT and have never been interested
in it) and the like... One of these system-wide profiles are in use at
a given time.

Gestures trigger events, and events, as well as being able to make
calls, unlock the screen, trigger BT profiles etc, can be configured
to switch the system-wide profile.

Also, events should be triggerable between/at specific times, and when
the GPS system notices you've entered/are in a certain area... a 250m
radius around my school, say, where I'd like to phone to stay on
silent.




On 1/25/07, Robert Michel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Salve Foucault!

On Thu, 25 Jan 2007, Foucault de Bonneval wrote:
> I was thinking of BT profiles and of people who constantly move form
> home to car to office to client ...
>
> So changing BT profile must be easier that calling a number or
> accessing diary, phonebook.
matter of personal priorities...

> So what do you think about having gesture recognition running to call
> events such as :
> - unlock and lock screen (move up and down)
> - call BT home profile (one up one right)
> - call BT car profile (one up one left)

The PalmPilot had several hacks that allows the user to define
actions  like this to special key strokes - IMHO should the user
be able to define what must be easier than other,,,

Hmm why not switching automaticaly by using Bluetooth scans and
GPS localisation?

E.g. arriving home and switching of the car will swith your
Bluetooth profile from car to home automaticaly.
And leaving home will start scanning if your car is on.

You see, OpenMoko/Neo1973 will give us much freedom for our
phone. :)))

Greetings,
rob

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--
Declan Naughton

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Re: Free This Mailing List! (was Re: GNU discussion (was re:Free your phone))

[Renaissance Man]

On 24 Jan 2007, at 7:13 pm, David Schlesinger wrote:

Where did I, or anybody else, DEMAND that OpenMoko give credit to  
GNU?


Dave Crossland's demanded it on a couple of occasions. Go back and  
reread his latest messages, particularly his message of 6:13 am  
this morning.


It might help things if you didn't continue to make bald face lies  
David.


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The man behind it all

[Jonathon Suggs]

Sometimes it helps to put a face with a name.  Anyway, found this link
and thought the community might want to see who is leading the charge.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRvtAAXTIlg

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Why not switching automaticaly? Re: Gesture command

[Robert Michel]

Salve Foucault!

On Thu, 25 Jan 2007, Foucault de Bonneval wrote:
> I was thinking of BT profiles and of people who constantly move form
> home to car to office to client ...
> 
> So changing BT profile must be easier that calling a number or
> accessing diary, phonebook.
matter of personal priorities... 

> So what do you think about having gesture recognition running to call
> events such as :
> - unlock and lock screen (move up and down)
> - call BT home profile (one up one right)
> - call BT car profile (one up one left)

The PalmPilot had several hacks that allows the user to define
actions  like this to special key strokes - IMHO should the user
be able to define what must be easier than other,,,

Hmm why not switching automaticaly by using Bluetooth scans and 
GPS localisation?

E.g. arriving home and switching of the car will swith your
Bluetooth profile from car to home automaticaly.
And leaving home will start scanning if your car is on.

You see, OpenMoko/Neo1973 will give us much freedom for our
phone. :)))

Greetings,
rob

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Re: emulator something like greenphone vmware?

[Rodolphe Ortalo]

Le jeudi 25 janvier 2007 à 10:20 +0200, Denis Kot a écrit :
> Hi all
> I did searching by lists but didn't find anything about emulator, so
> my question is:
> is there will be something like emulator like greenphone has? so I
> (and others) can play with phone virtualy and make decision to buy it
> or not.

If I understood correctly, the simplest way is to use xoo (nested X11
server with surrounding decoration) and run OpenMoko applications (Intel
version) on it.

> of course it will not have full functionality, but at least I can view
> at interface, menu and maybe some onboard software :)

As the OpenMoko source code will be available, we can expect that such
an emulator would have nearly all the functionality (except true GPS and
GSM functionality of course) and that you can compile it yourself. (I
hope I will not stand corrected...)

Rodolphe


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Re: idea for Neo 2nd generation: Accelerometer

[Tomasz Zielinski]

2007/1/25, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:


>  Great stuff to impress the ladies! ;)
Please refrain from making any comments of a sexist or sexual orientation
nature.


Am I allowed to reveal my gender? I'm affraid it can be offensive, too...

--
Tomek Z.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: Reactions From Other People to News of OpenMoko

[Dave Crossland]

On 25/01/07, Wil Chung <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


I'd imagine if you draw parallels to the internet, the issue of malware and
viruses inevitably crop up.  Just telling people "Linux is more secure"
probably doesn't alleviate fears.  I probably wouldn't know what to say.
Anyone wanna take that one?


Malware and viruses occur in proprietary software, because they rely
on problems that go unfixed. When software is free, the problems get
fixed very quickly in the short term - like in hours or days instead
of week or months. In the long term, smart ways to do things in
general are used, and these mean problems are not even possible to
arise in the first place.

That's basically how I field this question when it comes up in my
GNU/Linux speeches :-)

--
Regards,
Dave

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Re: How to get involved (HELP!!!)

[Marcin Juszkiewicz]

Dnia czwartek, 25 stycznia 2007 20:02, Rodolphe Ortalo napisał:
> > MACHINE = "native" will use your host toolchain and will build
> > binaries for your environment. You can also use MACHINE = "progear"
> > (its my x86 webpad config) and then use resulting packages/rootfs
> > under chroot or qemu.
>
> Is it mandatory to use a different build directory or is it possible to
> do this under the same build dir? (I am trying, but maybe you can save
> me some re-compilation time...)

It depends, but I prefer to use one build for dir.

http://www.hrw.one.pl/2006/11/22/my-openembedded-environment-ii/

-- 
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OpenEmbedded developer/consultant

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Re: Neo1973: Mobile Phone or Mobile Computer?

[David Schlesinger]

On 1/25/07 2:33 AM, "Dave Crossland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> It is proprietary software, and using proprietary software is
> unethical and unsustainable.

I'm sorry, let me make sure I understand you correctly: making a choice to
use proprietary software is _unethical_!?

I happen to use Photoshop and Illustrator for digital artwork, because
they're miles ahead of the open source alternatives in functionality and
usability, not to mention the wide range of add-on and plug-in capabilities
available.

Are you telling me I'm doing something _unethical_ by making that choice?

For someone who's so into "freedom", you seem to be spending a lot of time
trying to limit the choices other people can make.

Why's that?



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Re: idea for Neo 2nd generation: Accelerometer

[Marcus Bauer]

On Thu, 2007-01-25 at 20:00 +0100, Ortwin Regel wrote:
> The only situation where I can see the
> accelerometer being really useful is where Apple is using it: For
> changing the screen orientation of things according to how you hold
> the phone.

An accelerometer is a nice to have for navigation too. When losing the
GPS signal, i.e. in a tunnel, you can go on doing dead reckoning.

And it helps to get the vector map data coordinated with the GPS
position. 


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Re: idea for Neo 2nd generation: Accelerometer

[michael]

Please refrain from making any comments of a sexist or sexual orientation
nature.

Thank you.


 Great stuff to impress the ladies! ;)


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Yes it will have vibra alarm Re: idea for Neo 2nd generation: Accelerometer

[Robert Michel]

Salve Gervais!

On Thu, 25 Jan 2007, Gervais Mulongoy wrote:

> The Neo vibrates?
According to Sean, yes :))
http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2006-November/000398.html  

Phone without vibra would be very un-civilised 
and the vibra allows to give some feedback to the user
by using the touchscreen and diffrent vibra would help
to use it for navigation while it is in the pocket

like:
w ww  wwr wrr (turn right)
wrr wrr wrrr  wrrr wrrr wrrr  (turn left)
w (turn back)

Greetings,
rob

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Re: idea for Neo 2nd generation: Accelerometer

[Ortwin Regel]

I love the idea of adding an accelerometer (and other sensors) to the
next gen phone. I just bought an accelerometer addon for my Nintendo
DS and it's pretty impressive (even though there hasn't been much
development for it, yet. The only situation where I can see the
accelerometer being really useful is where Apple is using it: For
changing the screen orientation of things according to how you hold
the phone. Most other things that come to my mind are games but that's
ok since I love games. :D
A compass would be very useful, especially since it has GPS already.
Those two things connected with an accelerometer and touch and you've
got a map that you rotate by rotating the device, tilt by tilting it
and zoom by touching the screen. Great stuff to impress the ladies! ;)

Ortwin

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Re: How to get involved (HELP!!!)

[Rodolphe Ortalo]

Le mercredi 24 janvier 2007 à 23:37 +0100, Marcin Juszkiewicz a écrit :
> Dnia środa, 24 stycznia 2007 23:00, Rodolphe Ortalo napisał:
> 
> > Thanks for the hint!
> 
> Please reply UNDER post.

OK.

> > Btw, is it possible to build the applications in the native (build
> > host) format too for running under xoo or are they built only in the
> > target format (armv4t IIUC)?
> 
> MACHINE = "native" will use your host toolchain and will build binaries 
> for your environment. You can also use MACHINE = "progear" (its my x86 
> webpad config) and then use resulting packages/rootfs under chroot or 
> qemu.

Is it mandatory to use a different build directory or is it possible to
do this under the same build dir? (I am trying, but maybe you can save
me some re-compilation time...)

Rodolphe



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Re: idea for Neo 2nd generation: Accelerometer

[Gervais Mulongoy]

The Neo vibrates?

On 1/24/07, Tim Newsom <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Yeah.. I was using the accelerometer in my example to tell the program
what the phone orientation was so that you could limit distance without
having to touch the interface.  If you had it set up to run from a free
external button, you could push it
And orient the phone and point and the phone could vibrate a little when
it found the answer.  Then you can look at the face to see what it was.

On Wed, 24 Jan 2007 9:27, Gabriel Ambuehl wrote:
> On Wednesday 24 January 2007 17:04, Tim Newsom wrote:
>>  For GeoPointing to work right, you would also need an electronic
>> compass
>>  module in the phone
>
> I think that's actually the only thing you really need for it to work.
> Not
> sure how an accelerometer would help figuring out what direction the
> phone
> has?
>
> ___
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--Tim

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Re: planet.openmoko.org

[Marcin Juszkiewicz]

Dnia czwartek, 25 stycznia 2007 17:46, Justyn Butler napisał:

> Sorry if this is old news, but Harald Welte has announced on his blog
> that planet.openmoko.org is up. It's great to read some blog posts from
> people that I didn't even know were involved.

As one of persons on planet.openmoko.org I want to write one thing to be 
sure:

I'm not (yet) involved in OpenMoko. I'm one of core OpenEmbedded 
developers.

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Re: Idea for OpenMoko: Kid Mode

[Gervais Mulongoy]

Hello all,

This doesn't have to be a feature restricted to kids. I routinely go over
what is alloted by my current phone plan. And the carrier I am with isn't
very forgiving. The bills pile up rapidly.

Being able to define usage restrictions could be very useful as one could
setup the profile based on the plan they have. The profile can then be used
in two ways. The first being the an absolute restrictions mode where the
usage rules can not be broken by the user, and the second (let's call it
costly mode) where the user is reminded that they are additional usage will
incur extra costs from their carrier etc.

Such a mode could also go into effect as soon as the user/phone is in
roaming mode.

-Gervais

On 1/24/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


That is brilliant. As the parent of an 11-year old, I'd want a highly
configurable profile:

* Allow calls to/from (parents/grandparents/babysitter/etc.) anytime
* Allow calls to/from (list of friends) between 4pm and 9pm weekdays,
10-10pm
   weekends only
* Allow a maximum of (x) outgoing calls to friends per month
* as above for incoming
* as above for text messages

Of course good parenting encourages us to build better trust with our
children
rather than depending on technology to solve our parenting problems but
that's
another discussion..

Perhaps consider this "technology-assisted good parenting".

Cool idea!

Michael


On Wed, 24 Jan 2007, Paul Jimenez wrote:

>
> How about a locked-down 'kid version' of the UI with touchable pictures
for 'mommy', 'daddy', etc ?  Maybe not even labelled, but just the pictures?
>
>  --pj

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Re: Reactions From Other People to News of OpenMoko

[Wil Chung]

> Finally, by far the largest camp is the indifferent class.  Many
> people are quick to ask, "Why would you want an open source phone?"
> Answers of the, "So I know exactly what my phone is doing at all times
> - no secrets," variety typically get you labeled paranoid.  Answers of
> the, "Because I will be able to modify absolutely anything about it,"
> yield further questions to which further answers like, "I don't know,
> but *something*," are not enough.  And, there's always the, "Well, I'm
> perfectly happy with what I have now," people.  My feeling is that
> these people won't be convinced until there's considerable buzz from
> many people who have actually tried OpenMoko and like some specific
> feature about it.
>
> Has anyone else had a different variety of reactions?



That's about what I'd expect, I think.  As developers, we have skills to
create, so we are excited about possibilities, whereas your general user
can't create, and therefore doesn't care about possibilities.  They just
care that they can do whatever it is that they need to do, easily, quickly,
and a nice interface if they've got it.

Perhaps the angle that we should go for is that "open possibilities benefit
you."  Explain that Caller ID took so long to get to everyone cuz it was
closed.  If telephone networks were open, someone would have implemented it
much more quickly.  Use the wide range of internet web tools and apps as an
example.  Anyone can put together something and put it up, so other people
benefit also.  Without possibilities, there'd be no jib jab.  no youtube, no
myspace(for better or worse), no boing boing, no [insert web thingee], no
wikipedia, no flickr.  We geeks want the same possibilities on the phone, so
we can make other cool useful stuff for you to use.

"When geeks have open possibilities in their medium of choice, you get
useful stuff, if not funny stuff.  And when geeks can get artists in their
foray, you get beautiful stuff."

I guess that'd be my sell.

I'd imagine if you draw parallels to the internet, the issue of malware and
viruses inevitably crop up.  Just telling people "Linux is more secure"
probably doesn't alleviate fears.  I probably wouldn't know what to say.
Anyone wanna take that one?
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Re: planet.openmoko.org

[Stefan Schmidt]

Hello.

On Thu, 2007-01-25 at 16:46, Justyn Butler wrote:
> 
> Can't seem to subscribe to the whole planet through RSS though (only
> individuals), perhaps I'm being dense.

http://planet.openmoko.org/rss20.xml

There is no link on the site for it. Anyway, it's standard
planetplanet. :)

regards
Stefan Schmidt


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Re: Some thoughts: "1GB flash hack possible? Or why not shipping 1GB directly?"

[Pierre Hébert]

On Thursday 25 January 2007 16:16, Harald Welte wrote:
> The Neo1973 is accessing NAND flash directly via a industry-standard
> NAND flash interface, which is a special-purpose interface where you
> serially shift in the address and parallel read back of the data.

Yes you're right !

Pierre.

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Re: GPS Power Requirements

[Marcus Bauer]

On Thu, 2007-01-25 at 11:08 -0600, Jonathon Suggs wrote:
> Marcus Bauer wrote:
> 5mW if you get a fix every ten seconds.
> 
> 10 seconds is a pretty big interval.  Where did you get that information
> from?

I don't have a link at hand, but the GL chip consumes 50mW in continuous
mode and gets a fix within one second, i.e. ~50mW-s energy per fix. 

> Who is working on the drivers?

Global Locate does. They don't publish the protocol of the serial
interface of the chip. That's why this is closed source, called "Global
Locate Library".

The following are Global Locate's own statements about their chips on
their Website:

  * Autonomous or aided operation
  * -
  * The new hardware approach can make use of aiding, such as
  * satellite orbit data, to compute the satellite
  * Doppler frequency.
  * 
  * However,
  * in a situation where aiding is not available, the
  * hardware approach can still operate, by using
  * the frequency feedback and by demodulating the
  * satellite data. In this mode the new design
  * operates almost like a conventional GPS
  * receiver, except that acquisition times are about
  * one thousand times faster, thanks to the
  * presence of the real time convolution processor.

The whole document repeats over and over again how good, fast and
precise their chips are *without any AGPS* at all. And they repeatedly
state to be able to get a fix in real-time.


Marcus


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RE: open-source Java VM for openmoko?

[Bob Deanna]

Scott,

Thanks for the info!

I personally have no preference between Java and .NET.  

I am also equally interested in support for ikvm on openmoko as well.

There was a thread of discussion on this topic on the ikvm development
email list.

J2ME CDC would be just fine, but as you state J2SE would be better...and
ikvm even better.

That would pave the way for really strong application development!

Thanks again!
Bob 

-Original Message-
From: Scott Oberg [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2007 10:59 AM
To: Bob Deanna
Cc: community@lists.openmoko.org
Subject: Re: open-source Java VM for openmoko?

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

There is a jamvm package that is checked into the OpenEmbedded
(jamvm_1.3.0-jamvm_1.4.2), so I think that it will be available soon
after the release.

Koen Kooi did some initial work on testing a CDC build, see the
following link.  Thanks Koen! I'm starting to test out building phoneme
- - so that other existing J2ME phone apps can run on the openmoko.
However, like yourself, I'm also more interested in full J2SE support.
I'm not a Java nut case, but I think it's important to get it working on
the openmoko.
http://lists.linuxtogo.org/pipermail/openembedded-devel/2006-December/00
1036.html

Scott

Bob Deanna wrote:
> Hello all,
>  
> Will a Java VM, such as JamVM (see http://jamvm.sourceforge.net/) be a

> part of the openmoko software stack?
>  
> I think this is a very exciting effort!
>  
> Regards,
> Bob
> 
> 
> --
> --
> 
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Gesture command

[Foucault de Bonneval]

Hi all,

I was thinking of BT profiles and of people who constantly move form
home to car to office to client ...

So changing BT profile must be easier that calling a number or
accessing diary, phonebook.

So what do you think about having gesture recognition running to call
events such as :
- unlock and lock screen (move up and down)
- call BT home profile (one up one right)
- call BT car profile (one up one left)
- call mom (right left)
- ...

I'am using mouse geisture in firefox and it's really pleasant and
saves a lot of time.

Projects like Sensiva, wayv, mouse geisture are working that way with a mouse.

Keep working OpenMoko guys, the project is wonderfull.


Foucault

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Re: Reactions From Other People to News of OpenMoko

[michael]

On Thu, 25 Jan 2007, Bryan Fink wrote:


Hi all.  I've been talking up OpenMoko to everyone I know, and I felt
like there may be some people around here who would be interested in
the reactions I've gotten.

The main camps are as you would expect: positively-excited,
negatively-excited, and indifferent.  What I think is interesting, is
why people put themselves in those camps.

Surprisingly, few of the positively-excited people I've "recruited" so
far are coders.  They're actually more interested in the fact that
it's open, and not "controlled" by some faceless corporation.  They're
excited that they won't have to be stuck with Nokia's/Motorolla's/etc.
crappy software and forced upgrade path.  As I'm in the U.S., they're
also surprised and excited to hear that it's naturally "unlocked" so
they can choose whatever provider they want.

I did have one person who ended up positively-excited, but hesitated
briefly before that.  I had been talking up the "freedom to tinker"
line, and they got worried that you would *have* to be a tinkerer to
even get the phone working.  Assuring them of out-of-the-box
functionality and the "OpenMoko Certified" download center was
crucial.

Also surprisingly, the one truly negatively-excited person I met said
exactly this, "Great, so I'll have a phone that just randomly crashes
for no reason."  I know that he has run Red Hat Linux, and codes for a
living.  But, he has had poor experience with linux stability -
specifically around crappy drivers for new graphics accelerators.  So,
just as a warning, mentioning linux in an OpenMoko discussion will not
automatically win you friends.

Finally, by far the largest camp is the indifferent class.  Many
people are quick to ask, "Why would you want an open source phone?"
Answers of the, "So I know exactly what my phone is doing at all times
- no secrets," variety typically get you labeled paranoid.  Answers of
the, "Because I will be able to modify absolutely anything about it,"
yield further questions to which further answers like, "I don't know,
but *something*," are not enough.  And, there's always the, "Well, I'm
perfectly happy with what I have now," people.  My feeling is that
these people won't be convinced until there's considerable buzz from
many people who have actually tried OpenMoko and like some specific
feature about it.

Has anyone else had a different variety of reactions?


Thanks for your observation, Bryan. This is a very interesting thread. I'll
pay more attention to the various responses I get. (So far I've been so excited
by what I'm describing that I didn't really listen to their responses :-)

Regarding your comment about mentioning Linux to someone who had poor
experience with it, you may be amused by today's Dilbert: www.dilbert.com

M

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Re: Reactions From Other People to News of OpenMoko

[Bryan Fink]

On 1/25/07, Bryan Fink <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Alas, I'm no marketing expert, and certainly not privy to Scott &
co.'s plans.  So, like everyone else here, I'm just excited and ready
jump in and see what happens.


Omg.  I can't believe I just called Sean, "Scott".  Many apologies.  :P

-Bryan

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Re: R: Need info on AGPS

[Harald Welte]

On Thu, Jan 25, 2007 at 05:12:09PM +0100, Marcus Bauer wrote:
> On Thu, 2007-01-25 at 16:24 +0100, Harald Welte wrote:
> 
> > > 3. A-GPS involves additional data traffic and thus (potential) additional
> > > costs. Does it use a normal GSM/GPRS IP-based data transfer? does it use
> > > some out-of-band GSM/GPRS control messages? or does it get data from
> > > broadcasts in the local cell (e.g. GSM cell-broadcast)?
> > 
> > AFAIK: GPRS.  so its up to you whether you want that extra traffic (and
> > cost, unless you're flat) or not.
> 
> The Global Locate docs state TCP/IP as one possible way. So via
> USB-network or BT should be possible too.

What do you think do we run on top of usbnet and bluetooth BNEP ? The
answer is: TCP/IP ;)

So anything that uses TCP/IP and can be attached to the phone will be
able to connect the AGPS server[s].

> You need it only once for the first fix. It is ~2KB for all satellites
> and valid for 2-4 hours. Precomputed for a week maybe 1MB.

One thing that we should look into is to have something like an RSS Feed
of that data, which can be downloaded everytime we have a cheap
(bluetooth, usbnet) IP connectivity. Then cache all that data locally.

-- 
- Harald Welte <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  http://openmoko.org/

Software for the worlds' first truly open Free Software mobile phone

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Re: GPS Power Requirements

[Jonathon Suggs]

Marcus Bauer wrote:
5mW if you get a fix every ten seconds.

10 seconds is a pretty big interval.  Where did you get that information
from?  Is there a table that shows the draw/polling interval?

Where is the documentation for the chip?  Can its polling interval be
controlled?  Who is working on the drivers?

Sorry for the inquisition, but this is the type of stuff that will have
to "just work" for "normal" people to use it.

Great ideas are just that...ideas.  We can dream up all sorts of
features to add, but unless they "just work" then they will fall by the
wayside with all of the other could-of-beens.

I hate how things keep getting compared to Apple (and lately the
iPhone), but what they are promising is that it won't do anything new
and earth-shattering.  But what it will do is provide a sleek, extremely
well refined interface.  Things will "just work" and be intuitive.  If
they manage to do it, they can keep the architecture closed, charge a
$1000 and they still won't be able to keep it on the shelves.  Lets not
get so caught up in coming up with new ideas that we forget to not just
implement and move on, but take the time to refine it beyond (well it
works if you download the libraries, update the config, etc).

Sorry for the rant, but this project has potential to be great.  But it
also has the potential to me a geek novelty.  Lets take the time to make
it great!

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Re: open-source Java VM for openmoko?

[Scott Oberg]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

There is a jamvm package that is checked into the OpenEmbedded
(jamvm_1.3.0-jamvm_1.4.2), so I think that it will be available soon
after the release.

Koen Kooi did some initial work on testing a CDC build, see the
following link.  Thanks Koen! I'm starting to test out building phoneme
- - so that other existing J2ME phone apps can run on the openmoko.
However, like yourself, I'm also more interested in full J2SE support.
I'm not a Java nut case, but I think it's important to get it working on
the openmoko.
http://lists.linuxtogo.org/pipermail/openembedded-devel/2006-December/001036.html

Scott

Bob Deanna wrote:
> Hello all,
>  
> Will a Java VM, such as JamVM (see http://jamvm.sourceforge.net/) be a
> part of the openmoko software stack?
>  
> I think this is a very exciting effort!
>  
> Regards,
> Bob
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: Reactions From Other People to News of OpenMoko

[Bryan Fink]

On 1/25/07, Peter A Trotter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

I reckon I'll get a few developer converts for the phone if not to a desktop
flavour of linux.


That's actually something I'm anxious to see.  Given that it's
non-trivial to buy a computer (in the U.S.) with linux pre-loaded, and
that people are generally leery of abandoning their current OS, and
that mobile phones have a larger market and higher penetration than
desktop computers - it will be interesting to see how the name "Linux"
moves through the public consciousness.

Will people be impressed by their cellphone interface, and pleasantly
surprised that they can find something by the same name for their
desktop computer?

I fully expect their to be no such effect on the greater linux
community - there's been no such effect, that I can tell, from things
like Linksys's networking products or other linux phones - but it is
fun to speculate.  :)


From what you've said I think it would be fair to predict a uniform
indifference to the phone from non developers since they are already
bombarded daily by a deluge of new must have handsets. Once we reach general
availability and hopefully have a few more fun apps put together I think
that plenty more people can be swayed.


Agreed.  I think we, as developers and early adopters, will have to
have patience and be persistent to see the OpenMoko market grow.  It's
impossible for OpenMoko to go head-to-head with Nokia/Motorolla's
advertising, but solid "underground" community support could easily
produce a strong following that would grow naturally on its own.

Alas, I'm no marketing expert, and certainly not privy to Scott &
co.'s plans.  So, like everyone else here, I'm just excited and ready
jump in and see what happens.

-Bryan

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planet.openmoko.org

[Justyn Butler]

Sorry if this is old news, but Harald Welte has announced on his blog that
planet.openmoko.org is up. It's great to read some blog posts from people
that I didn't even know were involved.

Can't seem to subscribe to the whole planet through RSS though (only
individuals), perhaps I'm being dense.

Justyn
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Re: Reactions From Other People to News of OpenMoko

[Robert Michel]

Salve Bryan!

You gave an interesting report about the reactions - thank you :)

On Thu, 25 Jan 2007, Bryan Fink wrote:

> Hi all.  I've been talking up OpenMoko to everyone I know, and I felt
> like there may be some people around here who would be interested in
> the reactions I've gotten.

> Finally, by far the largest camp is the indifferent class.  Many
> people are quick to ask, "Why would you want an open source phone?"
> Answers of the, "So I know exactly what my phone is doing at all times
> - no secrets," variety typically get you labeled paranoid.  Answers of
> the, "Because I will be able to modify absolutely anything about it,"
> yield further questions to which further answers like, "I don't know,
> but *something*," are not enough.  And, there's always the, "Well, I'm
> perfectly happy with what I have now," people.

Just my 2cents:

For non-coder or those who never used the power of "apt-get install"
it sounds to complex, to complicated - they are used to buy a product 
and most mobil phones are sold with advertisment about 2-3 features
-2 mega-pix camera
-FM radio
-2 games

So freedom is everything and nothing. 

The idea that the GPS chips serves the information where you are now,
and that the phone profile changed by localisation, time and maybe
activity/noise is to fare away from normal advertisment slogans.

So talking about ideas "what will possible to do" is not realy
convincing normal uses (I think) this has to wait until you could 
demonstrate the first examples...

I think freedom to configurate something will frighten most users,
also the need to learn something (new) - even when anonymous callers
are disturbing the users - they will say "I'm perfectly happy with
what I have now - insteat of saying that they are afraid about something
new"

But they are right, why should they learn every 1-2 years a new menue
of a mobile phone?

IMHO we will win normal users when they got a feeling that they have
not be afraid of knowing not so much like the coders, that they could
benefit from using OpenMoko/Neo1973 and that every start and every step
is easy. This could take some time untill OpenMoko/Neo1973 becomes
full usabel __without__ coders/linux-admin knowledge ;)

And it belongs to us, how fast OpenMoko/Neo1973 will become usable
like Ubuntu (or even more easy...) - so please let us going on to
reflect how normal users thing about OpenMoko/Neo1973.

Greetings,
rob






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Re: GPS Power Requirements

[Marcus Bauer]

On Thu, 2007-01-25 at 10:23 -0600, Jonathon Suggs wrote:
> There has been a lot of talk about GPS recently.  There are some really
> good ideas floating around, but before people start getting really
> excited the BIG question is what is the power draw on the device?  Will
> you be able to keep the GPS receiver on constantly without having the
> battery get drained in a few hours?  If so, then *most* of the ideas are
> going to be pointless.
> 
> For instance, having the device be able to do specific things when you
> come into a certain area (100m from home = queue up music, 100m from
> school = turn off cell phone or just mute, etc).  Those are amazing
> ideas that could make this platform really stand out (if the interface
> is done correctly).  But if you have to remember to turn on the GPS when
> you get close to those areas for that feature to work will completely
> defeat the point.
> 
> So, what is the power requirements for GPS.  Is it a constant draw or
> can it be improved via advanced/better  drivers (polls less frequent if
> stationary, etc).

5mW if you get a fix every ten seconds.


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GPS Power Requirements

[Jonathon Suggs]

There has been a lot of talk about GPS recently.  There are some really
good ideas floating around, but before people start getting really
excited the BIG question is what is the power draw on the device?  Will
you be able to keep the GPS receiver on constantly without having the
battery get drained in a few hours?  If so, then *most* of the ideas are
going to be pointless.

For instance, having the device be able to do specific things when you
come into a certain area (100m from home = queue up music, 100m from
school = turn off cell phone or just mute, etc).  Those are amazing
ideas that could make this platform really stand out (if the interface
is done correctly).  But if you have to remember to turn on the GPS when
you get close to those areas for that feature to work will completely
defeat the point.

So, what is the power requirements for GPS.  Is it a constant draw or
can it be improved via advanced/better  drivers (polls less frequent if
stationary, etc).

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Re: Reactions From Other People to News of OpenMoko

[Peter A Trotter]

Hi Bryan,

That's quite interesting feedback. I have only really brought this subject
up with developer mates and one gadgetophile.

The heavily windows leaning developers have expressed a cool enthusiasm but
that will warm when they can see a product and get an idea for the sort of
apps that are being developed. All of them without exception have been
infuriated by their locked down win mobile 5 phones when they have tried to
customise or even make the most basic layout changes. One of the more
adventurous has gone as far as flashing various bits of firmware at
reasonable risk to achieve these results. They are certainly interested in
the openness aspects but only really have reservations about windows(read
exchange etc) compatibility.

I reckon I'll get a few developer converts for the phone if not to a desktop
flavour of linux.


From what you've said I think it would be fair to predict a uniform

indifference to the phone from non developers since they are already
bombarded daily by a deluge of new must have handsets. Once we reach general
availability and hopefully have a few more fun apps put together I think
that plenty more people can be swayed.

With some of the ease of use ideas floated here, given that the hardware and
software implementation live up to the hype, we should be able to hit quite
a reasonable size target market. However, any serious market penetration in
the UK is going to depend on carrier subsidy since nearly all upgrades here
are free/low cost + contract - even on relatively cheap contracts. If Sean
and the team can make that a reality it certainly puts us on a level playing
field price wise allowing us to push the obvious advantages ;)

I found the truly negatively-excited person pretted amusing actually since
I've had entirely the opposite experience of Windows/Linux with high end
cards, some games even get a better FPS in linux. Guess that's the downside
of such a diverse hardware eco system. Always going to be tough to put a
really stable system together. Anyone who's been running an acer laptop with
one of the newer ATI graphics cards must know what I'm talking about because
the gcard takes win xp down all the time...

-Pete



On 25/01/07, Bryan Fink <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Hi all.  I've been talking up OpenMoko to everyone I know, and I felt
like there may be some people around here who would be interested in
the reactions I've gotten.

The main camps are as you would expect: positively-excited,
negatively-excited, and indifferent.  What I think is interesting, is
why people put themselves in those camps.

Surprisingly, few of the positively-excited people I've "recruited" so
far are coders.  They're actually more interested in the fact that
it's open, and not "controlled" by some faceless corporation.  They're
excited that they won't have to be stuck with Nokia's/Motorolla's/etc.
crappy software and forced upgrade path.  As I'm in the U.S., they're
also surprised and excited to hear that it's naturally "unlocked" so
they can choose whatever provider they want.

I did have one person who ended up positively-excited, but hesitated
briefly before that.  I had been talking up the "freedom to tinker"
line, and they got worried that you would *have* to be a tinkerer to
even get the phone working.  Assuring them of out-of-the-box
functionality and the "OpenMoko Certified" download center was
crucial.

Also surprisingly, the one truly negatively-excited person I met said
exactly this, "Great, so I'll have a phone that just randomly crashes
for no reason."  I know that he has run Red Hat Linux, and codes for a
living.  But, he has had poor experience with linux stability -
specifically around crappy drivers for new graphics accelerators.  So,
just as a warning, mentioning linux in an OpenMoko discussion will not
automatically win you friends.

Finally, by far the largest camp is the indifferent class.  Many
people are quick to ask, "Why would you want an open source phone?"
Answers of the, "So I know exactly what my phone is doing at all times
- no secrets," variety typically get you labeled paranoid.  Answers of
the, "Because I will be able to modify absolutely anything about it,"
yield further questions to which further answers like, "I don't know,
but *something*," are not enough.  And, there's always the, "Well, I'm
perfectly happy with what I have now," people.  My feeling is that
these people won't be convinced until there's considerable buzz from
many people who have actually tried OpenMoko and like some specific
feature about it.

Has anyone else had a different variety of reactions?

-Bryan

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Re: R: Need info on AGPS

[Marcus Bauer]

On Thu, 2007-01-25 at 16:24 +0100, Harald Welte wrote:

> > 3. A-GPS involves additional data traffic and thus (potential) additional
> > costs. Does it use a normal GSM/GPRS IP-based data transfer? does it use
> > some out-of-band GSM/GPRS control messages? or does it get data from
> > broadcasts in the local cell (e.g. GSM cell-broadcast)?
> 
> AFAIK: GPRS.  so its up to you whether you want that extra traffic (and
> cost, unless you're flat) or not.

The Global Locate docs state TCP/IP as one possible way. So via
USB-network or BT should be possible too.

Source (gpsd aka Global Locate Library):
http://www.globallocate.com/SEMICONDUCTORS/SEMI_DRIVER_Frameset.htm

> > 4. if the answer to above is GPRS: is it possible to estimate in advance how
> > much additional traffic (in Kbytes/day of full operation)?
> 
> I am sure it's a quite fixed amount of

You need it only once for the first fix. It is ~2KB for all satellites
and valid for 2-4 hours. Precomputed for a week maybe 1MB.

Marcus


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Re: R: Need info on AGPS

[Marcus Bauer]

On Thu, 2007-01-25 at 16:39 +0100, Andreas Kostyrka wrote:

> Well, it does or not. The question is, does AGPS help with accuracy?

AGPS is a marketing term invented by the mobile industry and their
caterers. The reference docs for the SiRF binary protocol simply calls
these functions "set ephemeris" and "set almanac".

The network can't help the chip at all, execept providing this data so
that the chip can use a satellite in the moment it comes into sight and
doesn't first have to wait 30 seconds while receiving the ephemeris
broadcast.

The accuracy of AGPS and GPS is exactly the same. 

> Just an observation, that my builtin car navigation, which got GPS and
> travel information from the car, sometimes in long parallel running
> streets mistakes the street it is on :(

Then AGPS will do the same mistake.


The way that the 'Global Locate Library' works it is an evil trick to
prevent you from doing this yourself and force you back into the arms of
the mobile operators so that you have to pay for it. I wouldn't be
surprised if the European Comission fines them one day - they have
become quite good in doing so lately.

Nevertheless you don't need the A of AGPS, it is a convenience to get a
quick cold-start positon fix somewhere in the city.

It is just some kind of road toll between you and the free GPS signal
from the sky / ephemeris data from the internet. 

Marcus



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To complete the memory questions - and >128 MB RAM? Re: Some thoughts: "1GB flash hack possible? Or why not shipping 1GB directly?" Reply-To:

[Robert Michel]

Salve Harald!

Thank you for your answer - a litte more information like about the
technical based flash size of 64MB would avoid some speculations... ;)

On Thu, 25 Jan 2007, Harald Welte wrote:
> If there was a technical way how we could have put larger NAND flash in
> the device, we would have done it.  Unfortunately the S3C2410 controller
> only supports 512byte page sized NAND, and all the large NAND chips have
> larger page size.

To complete this quetionary about memory, what's about more RAM? 
Is there a technical way to use more? (In case that someone need it)

Greetings
rob



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Re: Reactions From Other People to News of OpenMoko

[Dave Crossland]

On 25/01/07, Bryan Fink <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Also surprisingly, the one truly negatively-excited person I met said
exactly this, "Great, so I'll have a phone that just randomly crashes
for no reason."  I know that he has run Red Hat Linux, and codes for a
living.  But, he has had poor experience with linux stability -
specifically around crappy drivers for new graphics accelerators.


Maybe you could point out that those drivers are proprietary software,
which is why they are so buggy? :-)

--
Regards,
Dave

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Re: Speakerphone

[Robert Michel]

Salve Harald!

On Thu, 25 Jan 2007, Harald Welte wrote:

> On Mon, Jan 22, 2007 at 09:11:50AM -0500, Gervais Mulongoy wrote:
> > I am not sure how important this "feature" is for others, but will the
> > Neo1973 have a loud speaker?
> 
> The Nei1973 has three speakers in total. Two speakers for stereo
> playback of ringtones, music, etc, and one headset speaker ('receiver')
> used for voice calls.

Where are the places of the speaker?
 _
/  3  \
|  |
|  |
|  |
|  |
---|
\1 M  2/
  

1,2 = R+L Speaker
3   = Mono for voice calls
M   = Mic


Realy no chance for a mic/audio in jack?

Greetings
rob

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Re: R: Need info on AGPS

[Robert Michel]

Salve Harald!

Thank you for feedback.

On Thu, 25 Jan 2007, Harald Welte wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 25, 2007 at 02:38:20PM +0100, Michele Manzato wrote:
> > 5. Are there any known estimations on the overall (A)GPS performance on the
> > Neo (esp. fix time)
> 
> There are some numbers in the data sheet of our GPS chipset vendor, but
> that data sheet is closed.  I will ask them to give us some
> document/numbers that we can publicize.

The (A)GPS chip inside of the Neo1973 will be a very important factor
- many new solutions and services could be created and offered with
this integreated indoor working GPS chip - in combination with an
GNU/Linux running small device :

Documentation will be important to support development but also to
make more populare which power the Neo1973 has - for developers but
also for just users.

> > 8. Is it possible to tell/know which is the A-GPS server currently in use?
> 
> yes.

To support development and popularity of the Neo, what's about the chance 
to use A-GPS server free of charge for Neo1973 from early beginning?

Greetings
rob



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Re: R: Need info on AGPS

[Andreas Kostyrka]

* Marcus Bauer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070125 16:07]:
> As all the TomTom gadgets prove: it isn't. GPS works pretty well without
> the A.

Well, it does or not. The question is, does AGPS help with accuracy?
Just an observation, that my builtin car navigation, which got GPS and
travel information from the car, sometimes in long parallel running
streets mistakes the street it is on :(

Andreas

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Re: R: Need info on AGPS

[Harald Welte]

On Thu, Jan 25, 2007 at 02:38:20PM +0100, Michele Manzato wrote:
> Some additional questions on this subject:
> 
> 1. Is there any "A-GPS standard" whatsoever?

no. It's a broad term for many variants of GPS

> 2. I have heard elsewhere (Wikipedia) that in A-GPS the computation effort
> is shared between the device and the A-GPS Server. According to a previous
> post, the device just downloads the ephemeris table so there isn't any
> actual "computation sharing", but rather a download of a pre-computed table
> download. Correct?

As far as I understand it: yes.  I will ask our GPS engineer to comment
on those questions.

> 3. A-GPS involves additional data traffic and thus (potential) additional
> costs. Does it use a normal GSM/GPRS IP-based data transfer? does it use
> some out-of-band GSM/GPRS control messages? or does it get data from
> broadcasts in the local cell (e.g. GSM cell-broadcast)?

AFAIK: GPRS.  so its up to you whether you want that extra traffic (and
cost, unless you're flat) or not.

> 4. if the answer to above is GPRS: is it possible to estimate in advance how
> much additional traffic (in Kbytes/day of full operation)?

I am sure it's a quite fixed amount of 

> 5. Are there any known estimations on the overall (A)GPS performance on the
> Neo (esp. fix time)

There are some numbers in the data sheet of our GPS chipset vendor, but
that data sheet is closed.  I will ask them to give us some
document/numbers that we can publicize.

> 6. Coming to the Neo1973. In order to save costs, can the "Assisted"
> function in A-GPS be disabled through software API?

yes, it can be disabled through preferences.

> 7. Is it possible to tell whether A-GPS is actually in use or not?

yes. either you have enabled it in preferences or nor ;)

> 8. Is it possible to tell/know which is the A-GPS server currently in use?

yes.

-- 
- Harald Welte <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  http://openmoko.org/

Software for the worlds' first truly open Free Software mobile phone

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Re: OMG wiki license

[Harald Welte]

On Thu, Jan 25, 2007 at 07:29:47AM -0500, Richard Franks wrote:
> then there is no copyright issue as the contributors have implicitly
> put their words into the public domain?

Public domain only exists in the UK/US common law countries. 

I for example, as a German citizan, cannot put something into the public
domain - unless my copyrigt expires some decades after my death.

So, yes, I firmly believe it is problematic to copy that old content
into the new official wiki.

The official wiki will, in the spirit of Wikipedia (and for
compatibility) be using GFDL 1.2.

Cheers,
-- 
- Harald Welte <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  http://openmoko.org/

Software for the worlds' first truly open Free Software mobile phone

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Re: Speakerphone

[Harald Welte]

On Mon, Jan 22, 2007 at 09:11:50AM -0500, Gervais Mulongoy wrote:
> I am not sure how important this "feature" is for others, but will the
> Neo1973 have a loud speaker?

The Nei1973 has three speakers in total. Two speakers for stereo
playback of ringtones, music, etc, and one headset speaker ('receiver')
used for voice calls.

And yes, you can also route the voice call audio to the stereo speakers.

-- 
- Harald Welte <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  http://openmoko.org/

Software for the worlds' first truly open Free Software mobile phone

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Re: Some thoughts: "1GB flash hack possible? Or why not shipping 1GB directly?"

[Harald Welte]

On Wed, Jan 24, 2007 at 09:10:11AM +0100, Pierre Hébert wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> On Wednesday 24 January 2007 01:47, Justyn Butler wrote:
> > So my answer to your question is: perhaps not from your USB memory
> > stick, but you will be able to upgrade the flash chip if you've a
> > little experience with surface mount hacking.
> 
> You cannot simply replace chips like that. The S3C2410 used in the neo, 
> and other devices, is accessing RAM, internal flash and devices through 
> memory mapping, with a 32 bits address. 

No, I'm sorry, it isn't ;)

Only NOR flash is addressed like ROM/RAM/EPROM

The Neo1973 is accessing NAND flash directly via a industry-standard NAND flash
interface, which is a special-purpose interface where you serially shift
in the address and parallel read back of the data.

This has about nothign in common with USB Flash drives, which have a
dedicated microprocessor with firmware to make a NAND flash module
appear as a storage device.

If there was a technical way how we could have put larger NAND flash in
the device, we would have done it.  Unfortunately the S3C2410 controller
only supports 512byte page sized NAND, and all the large NAND chips have
larger page size.
-- 
- Harald Welte <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  http://openmoko.org/

Software for the worlds' first truly open Free Software mobile phone

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