Re: Fwd: [openmoko-announce] OpenMoko Phase 0 has started

[Bartlomiej Zdanowski AutoGuard Ltd.]

Sergi Blanch i Torné napisa?(a):

I a nosaltres no ens arribarà? encara?

  

Amigo, inglés del uso, por favor.

Respeto
--
*Bartlomiej Zdanowski*
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Product Research Department
AutoGuard & Insurance Ltd.

Omulewska 27 street
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Poland
phone +48 22 611 69 23
www.autoguard.pl 
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Real world bluetooth range?

[Sven Neuhaus]

Hi,

now that some phase 0 units have arrived, could someone please check the
real-world bluetooth range that can be achieved? I wonder if one bluetooth
AP can cover an entire flat (for VoIP etc). According to the wiki, the
bluetooth in the Neo is of class 2, so the range should be around 10 meters.
It'd be best if you have a class 1 bluetooth dongle (100 meter range) to
test the range of course, so the Neo is the limiting factor and not the PC
bluetooth dongle.

Thanks,
-Sven


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Re: Real world bluetooth range?

[Bartłomiej Zdanowski DRP AC2]

Hello.
Sven Neuhaus napisał(a):

Hi,

now that some phase 0 units have arrived, could someone please check the
real-world bluetooth range that can be achieved? I wonder if one bluetooth
AP can cover an entire flat (for VoIP etc). According to the wiki, the
bluetooth in the Neo is of class 2, so the range should be around 10 meters.
It'd be best if you have a class 1 bluetooth dongle (100 meter range) to
test the range of course, so the Neo is the limiting factor and not the PC
bluetooth dongle.
  
Point-to-point range depends on weaker device's performance, so Neo 
limits bluetooth range. I say that 10 meters is in open space. Try to 
connect through walls...
It is very idea to put BT class 1 to Neo in future releases but of 
course it depends on costs and what will designers say on that.

This is a question to FIC: is it possible to mount BT class 1 in future?

Regards
--
*Bartlomiej Zdanowski*
Programmer
Product Research Department
AutoGuard & Insurance Ltd.

Omulewska 27 street
04-128 Warsaw
Poland
phone +48 22 611 69 23
www.autoguard.pl 
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Re: GPS for 911 calls

[Harald Welte]

On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 07:59:14AM -0700, Michael Welter wrote:
> What is the protocol for sending the GPS coordinates to the 911 dispatcher?

I am not aware that GSM carriers in the US use GPS at all.  To the best
of my knowledge, only CDMA carriers do.

In the Neo1973 we don't have any such facility or protocol.  And to be
honest: I'm more than happy about that, for data protection reasons.

Unless such a feature is configurable by the user, it would cause
exactly this "out of control" situation that is predominant due to the
traditional close cooperation between operators and device
manufacturers.

Our user has to be in control whether GSM and/or GPS are switched on, or
are allowed to talk to the network or not.

-- 
- Harald Welte <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  http://openmoko.org/

Software for the world's first truly open Free Software mobile phone

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Re: Near field communication

[Harald Welte]

On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 07:41:43PM +0100, Bruce Deschamps wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> My name is Bruce, I recently subscribe to the community list and I have been
> reading a few of the very interesting threads you've been talking about. I
> was wondering if  any of you had thought about near field communication
> capabilities like using RFID reader and chips to deal with payment,
> ticketing, infotainment, or entreprise solutions like tracking by using the
> neo1973 and openMoko Framework?

Please note that I as one of the core people behind the software, and
now also Neo1973 hardware, have spent much time over the last years with
the development of projects like

http://openmrtd.org/projects/librfid/
http://openmrtd.org/projects/libmrtd/index.html
http://www.openpcd.org/
http://www.openpcd.org/openpicc.0.html
http://www.openbeacon.org/

So we definitely know about RFID and NFC stuff ;)

> on. I was wondering if there was any possibility to integrate this
> functionnality into our upcoming Neo and openMoko?

For Neo1973: No way.  We are happy to deliver "a very basic smartphone"
from the hardware point of it.  As you have noticed, even something as
simple as that (from the hardware point of view) has caused delays and
delays.

For our 2008 device plans:  We're keeping an eye on it.  For something
ISO14443-1/2/3/4 compliant it would be possible, since that is open
enough.  The other side is the chipset.  I'm currently not aware of any
NFC chipsets that would even allow the driver and other software to be
Free Software.  And that is a sort of a blocker issue for us.

-- 
- Harald Welte <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  http://openmoko.org/

Software for the world's first truly open Free Software mobile phone

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Re: OpenMoko Phase 0 has started

[Harald Welte]

On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 09:40:12PM -0700, Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
> Igor Foox writes:
> >Just wanted to send a big Congratulations to the core OpenMoko team
> >for this first shipment of phones. You guys are doing a great job and  
> >even
> >with the delays the community is (or at least I am) 100% behind you!
> 
> Absolutely!
> 
> And I think I'm speaking for far too many people when I ask:  what's
> happening to the last 14 phones? :)

we have such a severe lack of [working] hardware within the project,
that we are more than happy about this unexpected additional hardware.

e.g. we're currently in the process of growing our [paid/hired] team,
and we wouldn't have hardware for them otherwise.  Also, some of them
will be used as samples for FCC/CE/... style certifications, I've been
told by the HW team.

So for example, all phase 0 users now have _later_ hardware than either
Werner, Mickey or me have - since all our boards have defunct Bluetooth.

We really made that phase 0 possible at a time where the status of
hardware availability can rarely afford it.  So _please_ don't even try
to snatch one of those phones.  It's deemed to be futile and just causes
additional overhead on our side to respond with all those "NO" mails.

Cheers,
-- 
- Harald Welte <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  http://openmoko.org/

Software for the world's first truly open Free Software mobile phone

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Re: GPS for 911 calls

[Harald Welte]

On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 06:56:08PM -0500, Perry E. Metzger wrote:
> 
> Ian Stirling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > Michael Welter wrote:
> >> What is the protocol for sending the GPS coordinates to the 911 dispatcher?
> >
> > I don't think there is one protocol.
> > Unfortunately, I suspect a 'say GPS coordinates' button on the 911
> > screen may be the most compatible way.
> 
> Wireless Enhanced 911 for mobiles, including GPS or other
> radiolocation data, is a US standard. I don't know how the signaling
> works, but if you are selling a new phone in the US, it is mandatory
> that you comply.

Please see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E911#Wireless_Enhanced_911:

"however. TDMA and GSM networks such as Cingular and T-Mobile use TDOA"
which is location singulation based purely on the network.  No device
support and no GPS needed for that.

-- 
- Harald Welte <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  http://openmoko.org/

Software for the world's first truly open Free Software mobile phone

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Re: what about localized versions of wiki?

[Denis Kot]

2007/3/7, Jon Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

On Tue, 2007-03-06 at 15:05 +0200, Denis Kot wrote:
> something like ru.wiki.openmoko.org, de.wiki.openmoko.org etc?
> I'm ready to maintain Russian version of wiki.

Just go ahead and use what is there to translate...



already doing

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Re: community Digest, Vol 17, Issue 9

[Jarod Wang]

2007/3/7, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

From: "Denis Kot" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "OpenMoko -- OpenMoko" 
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 15:05:42 +0200
Subject: what about localized versions of wiki?
something like ru.wiki.openmoko.org, de.wiki.openmoko.org etc?
I'm ready to maintain Russian version of wiki.


I'm also translating some pages of the wiki into Chinese Simplified (zh_cn).

But I just make new pages adding suffix "/zh_cn" to existing pages
such as http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Main_Page/zh_cn

--
Best regards,

Jarod Wang

School of Computer Science
Wuhan University of Technology, Wuhan, P. R. China

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Re: Near field communication

[Bruce Deschamps]

Hi Harald,

Well, if I can contribute to the project in any way I would be very happy to
help!
Cheers
Bruce

2007/3/7, Harald Welte <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:


On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 07:41:43PM +0100, Bruce Deschamps wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> My name is Bruce, I recently subscribe to the community list and I have
been
> reading a few of the very interesting threads you've been talking about.
I
> was wondering if  any of you had thought about near field communication
> capabilities like using RFID reader and chips to deal with payment,
> ticketing, infotainment, or entreprise solutions like tracking by using
the
> neo1973 and openMoko Framework?

Please note that I as one of the core people behind the software, and
now also Neo1973 hardware, have spent much time over the last years with
the development of projects like

http://openmrtd.org/projects/librfid/
http://openmrtd.org/projects/libmrtd/index.html
http://www.openpcd.org/
http://www.openpcd.org/openpicc.0.html
http://www.openbeacon.org/

So we definitely know about RFID and NFC stuff ;)

> on. I was wondering if there was any possibility to integrate this
> functionnality into our upcoming Neo and openMoko?

For Neo1973: No way.  We are happy to deliver "a very basic smartphone"
from the hardware point of it.  As you have noticed, even something as
simple as that (from the hardware point of view) has caused delays and
delays.

For our 2008 device plans:  We're keeping an eye on it.  For something
ISO14443-1/2/3/4 compliant it would be possible, since that is open
enough.  The other side is the chipset.  I'm currently not aware of any
NFC chipsets that would even allow the driver and other software to be
Free Software.  And that is a sort of a blocker issue for us.

--
- Harald Welte <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
http://openmoko.org/


Software for the world's first truly open Free Software mobile phone





--
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1380, route d'Antibes
Hameau des Oliviers
06560 Valbonne
Mobile: 06 61 68 72 17
Dom.:04 92 98 18 64
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: community Digest, Vol 17, Issue 9

[Denis Kot]

2007/3/7, Jarod Wang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

2007/3/7, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> From: "Denis Kot" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "OpenMoko -- OpenMoko" 
> Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 15:05:42 +0200
> Subject: what about localized versions of wiki?
> something like ru.wiki.openmoko.org, de.wiki.openmoko.org etc?
> I'm ready to maintain Russian version of wiki.

I'm also translating some pages of the wiki into Chinese Simplified (zh_cn).

But I just make new pages adding suffix "/zh_cn" to existing pages
such as http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Main_Page/zh_cn


Great!
Russian translators can start translating from this page:
http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Main_Page/ru

--
Denis Kot
denis?jabber.org.by
ICQ: 13680126
Mobil: +375 29 6-1234-78

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Re: GPS for 911 calls

[Perry E. Metzger]

Harald Welte <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>> Wireless Enhanced 911 for mobiles, including GPS or other
>> radiolocation data, is a US standard. I don't know how the signaling
>> works, but if you are selling a new phone in the US, it is mandatory
>> that you comply.
>
> Please see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E911#Wireless_Enhanced_911:
>
> "however. TDMA and GSM networks such as Cingular and T-Mobile use TDOA"
> which is location singulation based purely on the network.  No device
> support and no GPS needed for that.

Ah, so the network does the work, not the phone. On CDMA I believe all
the phones do the signaling.

Perry

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Re: Yet another finger keybord (gui mock-up).

[Lars Hallberg]

Lars Hallberg skrev:

Gabriel Ambuehl skrev:
I meant for the second level, where they are essentially already in a 
hexagonal shape...


Yes, hexagons is better then yes.. just harder to mock up ;-)


Thinking more on it... hexagons is not best... as the splash pops up in 
the center of the press, the middle button need not be big (just cover 
for accidental slip). Better to increase the drag targets (making it 
more of a drag vector thing.


Updated: http://www.micropp.se/openmoko/ with new 'splash' design and 
more explanation.


Thanks everyone for the feedback so far.

/LaH


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Re: Neologics

[Richard Franks]

On 3/7/07, Jon Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

This is interesting to see the larger ambitions of the project. It might
also help to expand upon what types of devices could be constructed with
this logic, in addition to neo1973. I'm thinking remotes, media players,
watches, etc...


What if you mated Elite with Yahoo Pipes - instead of RSS feeds, you
have extensible data streams.. and instead of planets you have
conceptual nodes. Instead of trade routes, by clicking on a node you
can see and edit which data streams it imports and exports, and can be
anything from a simple wrapper to the GPS device, to a user, an
application or represent a physical device such as your desktop or
Neo.

Here's an early demo picture, although the lack of structure makes it
look rather too complex at the moment:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/413592619/

Instead of adding a security layer later, each node could have its own
private/public key combo from birth, and would (by default) be
authenticated by the node representing the physical device layer. The
user node may use a third-party to authenticate themselves, which
would allow them to travel between devices, or may choose to operate
in a reduced security domain which allows local authentication -
simply drag a new node from your 'parent' user-node, un-check the
security domains you don't want it to access, and allow password
authentication for that 'child' node.

To set up communication between nodes, the device authentication layer
would handle the swapping of public keys - transparently if requested
between multiple physical devices, but the utility arises from this
ability to dynamically create overlapping security domains (e.g. my
work, friends, family, spouse, etc).

I think I've failed in the description somewhat, as I'm still in the
early-prototype stages - but I think it could provide access to
conceptual and physical resources as simple building blocks, which is
fundamental for emergence to flourish.

Richard

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Re: coverage at linuxdevices.com

[Attila Csipa]

On Monday 05 March 2007 07:01, Sean Moss-Pultz wrote:
> > As I understand it Andreas, the hackers lunchbox is including the dev
> > board
> > connecting thru the JTAG interface of the phone. You would purchace
> > your
> > phone seperatly.
> >
> > Someone please correct me if I missunderstand.
>
> This is correct.

Could we get a photo of the dev board (or perhaps a pointer to the appropriate 
page, I couldn't find anything substantial in the wiki about it) ? Something 
like http://www.mikroe.com/en/tools/easypic3/ , but of course it doesn't need 
to be as detailed, just a high res photo and 5 minutes in kolourpaint or gimp 
to highlight points of interest. There are dev boards and 'dev boards', and 
200$ is enough for me to get curious to find out what that dev board actually 
contains/looks like :)

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Re: coverage at linuxdevices.com

[Ian Stirling]

Attila Csipa wrote:

On Monday 05 March 2007 07:01, Sean Moss-Pultz wrote:

As I understand it Andreas, the hackers lunchbox is including the dev
board
connecting thru the JTAG interface of the phone. You would purchace
your
phone seperatly.

Someone please correct me if I missunderstand.

This is correct.


Could we get a photo of the dev board (or perhaps a pointer to the appropriate 
page, I couldn't find anything substantial in the wiki about it) ? Something 
like http://www.mikroe.com/en/tools/easypic3/ , but of course it doesn't need 
to be as detailed, just a high res photo and 5 minutes in kolourpaint or gimp 
to highlight points of interest. There are dev boards and 'dev boards', and 
200$ is enough for me to get curious to find out what that dev board actually 
contains/looks like :)



http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Connecting_Neo1973_with_Debug_Board_v2

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Re: GPS for 911 calls

[Martin Lefkowitz]

It will be interesting to see how that pans out too.  My understanding
is that the CDMA systems started out trying this method and then wen't
to the idea of adding GPS HW.

Marty

> From: "Perry E. Metzger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Harald Welte
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>>> >> Wireless Enhanced 911 for mobiles, including GPS or other
>>> >> radiolocation data, is a US standard. I don't know how the signaling
>>> >> works, but if you are selling a new phone in the US, it is mandatory
>>> >> that you comply.
>>>   
>> >
>> > Please see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E911#Wireless_Enhanced_911:
>> >
>> > "however. TDMA and GSM networks such as Cingular and T-Mobile use TDOA"
>> > which is location singulation based purely on the network.  No device
>> > support and no GPS needed for that.
>> 
>
> Ah, so the network does the work, not the phone. On CDMA I believe all
> the phones do the signaling.
>
> Perry


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Re: Real world bluetooth range?

[michael]

On Wed, 7 Mar 2007, Sven Neuhaus wrote:


Hi,

now that some phase 0 units have arrived, could someone please check the
real-world bluetooth range that can be achieved? I wonder if one bluetooth
AP can cover an entire flat (for VoIP etc). According to the wiki, the
bluetooth in the Neo is of class 2, so the range should be around 10 meters.
It'd be best if you have a class 1 bluetooth dongle (100 meter range) to
test the range of course, so the Neo is the limiting factor and not the PC
bluetooth dongle.

Thanks,
-Sven


I will be happy to do so. Unfortunately I am slammed at work this week but
will do this next week.

The device as shipped doesn't have many apps ready to use, but I'm sure there
are command line utilities to poke and prod the bluetooth hardware. I really
haven't yet had time to read the online documentation nor to explore my
device.

I would expect this range to vary with the strength and quality of the radio
in the device I'm communicating with. I don't suppose there is a standard,
e.g. a particular headset (make and model) such that comparisons are valid?

Michael

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Re: Yet another finger keybord (gui mock-up).

[michael]

On Wed, 7 Mar 2007, Lars Hallberg wrote:


Lars Hallberg skrev:

 Gabriel Ambuehl skrev:
>  I meant for the second level, where they are essentially already in a 
>  hexagonal shape...


 Yes, hexagons is better then yes.. just harder to mock up ;-)


Thinking more on it... hexagons is not best... as the splash pops up in the 
center of the press, the middle button need not be big (just cover for 
accidental slip). Better to increase the drag targets (making it more of a 
drag vector thing.


Updated: http://www.micropp.se/openmoko/ with new 'splash' design and more 
explanation.


Thanks everyone for the feedback so far.

/LaH


By the way, your mock ups are beautiful, well documented, and very
professionally presented. You must be a graphic or industrial designer (or
something like that) in your day job.

Thanks for your work in this area.

Michael

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Re: coverage at linuxdevices.com

[Jeff Andros]

> to highlight points of interest. There are dev boards and 'dev boards', and
> 200$ is enough for me to get curious to find out what that dev board actually
> contains/looks like :)
>
http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Connecting_Neo1973_with_Debug_Board_v2


http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Debug_Board
It's got a little more detail... and some basic component descriptions


--
Jeff
O|||O

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Re: GPS for 911 calls

[Wolfgang S. Rupprecht]

Harald Welte <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> I am not aware that GSM carriers in the US use GPS at all.  To the best
> of my knowledge, only CDMA carriers do.
>
> In the Neo1973 we don't have any such facility or protocol.  And to be
> honest: I'm more than happy about that, for data protection reasons.

I'm curious does anyone know if there is a protocol for remotely
turning on the microphone?  I recall reading about a case where the US
FBI got into trouble with the courts for remotely bugging a suspected
Mafia member's Onstar gps-equipped car phone.

http://news.com.com/2100-1029-6140191.html

While such a feature might be useful if the phone were ever stolen, it
would also be nice to know that any features like this are under the
phone owner's full control.

-wolfgang
-- 
Wolfgang S. Rupprechthttp://www.wsrcc.com/wolfgang/


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Re: Neologics

[Jon Phillips]

On Wed, 2007-03-07 at 09:11 -0500, Richard Franks wrote:
> On 3/7/07, Jon Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > This is interesting to see the larger ambitions of the project. It might
> > also help to expand upon what types of devices could be constructed with
> > this logic, in addition to neo1973. I'm thinking remotes, media players,
> > watches, etc...
> 
> What if you mated Elite with Yahoo Pipes - instead of RSS feeds, you
> have extensible data streams.. and instead of planets you have
> conceptual nodes. Instead of trade routes, by clicking on a node you
> can see and edit which data streams it imports and exports, and can be
> anything from a simple wrapper to the GPS device, to a user, an
> application or represent a physical device such as your desktop or
> Neo.
> 
> Here's an early demo picture, although the lack of structure makes it
> look rather too complex at the moment:
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/413592619/
> 
> Instead of adding a security layer later, each node could have its own
> private/public key combo from birth, and would (by default) be
> authenticated by the node representing the physical device layer. The
> user node may use a third-party to authenticate themselves, which
> would allow them to travel between devices, or may choose to operate
> in a reduced security domain which allows local authentication -
> simply drag a new node from your 'parent' user-node, un-check the
> security domains you don't want it to access, and allow password
> authentication for that 'child' node.
> 
> To set up communication between nodes, the device authentication layer
> would handle the swapping of public keys - transparently if requested
> between multiple physical devices, but the utility arises from this
> ability to dynamically create overlapping security domains (e.g. my
> work, friends, family, spouse, etc).
> 
> I think I've failed in the description somewhat, as I'm still in the
> early-prototype stages - but I think it could provide access to
> conceptual and physical resources as simple building blocks, which is
> fundamental for emergence to flourish.

Well, please put on the wiki: http://wiki.openmoko.org and flesh it out
some more :)

Jon

> Richard
> 
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USA PH 510.499.0894
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Re: GTA01Bv3 to share

[Tomasz Zielinski]

2007/3/7, Richi Plana <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:


 If no one in the EU takes it, please let me know. I'm in Canada. I don't
mind paying the extra fees for an early look (even if it is "buggy").


ACK - I save your mail and let you know if no one else responds.

--
Tomek Z.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: Pictures of Neo1973 under GFDL for wikipedia

[Sergio Bessa]

Hi,

As you can see here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:1112FIC326x550.jpg
and here
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:1112FIC326x550.jpg

The OpenMoko picture is going to be deleted soon if no one adds the 
required information.


Who can do this?

Regards,

Sergio

Marc Verwerft wrote:

Salve Sean!

Thanks for letting use those pictures. But in order to be _absolutely_ 
sure, the wikipedia people would like something more formal. Please 
have a look at this page 
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Email_templates and send 
them the 'declaration of consent' in the rectangle if you agree. Then 
they know it's legitimate. Can you put me in copy, so I can finish 
that article ;-) ? Sorry I didn't mention it the first time around, 
but I was unaware of it.


Regards,

Marc.

On 1/24/07, *Sean Moss-Pultz* <[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> wrote:


On 1/24/07 4:39 PM, "Marc Verwerft" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:

> can we use the pictures at the openmoko site in wikipedia (all
languages) with
> the permission of FIC under the GNU Free Documentation License
>
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GFDL  > )?

Please do!

-Sean





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Re: GPS for 911 calls

[dwight at supercomputer.org]

On Wednesday 07 March 2007 10:14, Wolfgang S. Rupprecht wrote:
> I'm curious does anyone know if there is a protocol for remotely
> turning on the microphone?  I recall reading about a case where the US
> FBI got into trouble with the courts for remotely bugging a suspected
> Mafia member's Onstar gps-equipped car phone.
>
> http://news.com.com/2100-1029-6140191.html
>
> While such a feature might be useful if the phone were ever stolen, it
> would also be nice to know that any features like this are under the
> phone owner's full control.
>
> -wolfgang

That's Onstar, which is has had this ability from the start (though "bugging" 
a car for Law Enforcement purposes wasn't the original intention IIRC). It's 
really no surprise whatsoever.

There isn't a specific documented protocol for phones that I'm aware of. But 
the way things work is that the Feds usually approach a manufacturer about 
putting in what's called "Lawful Intercept" hooks which basically enable such 
back doors. Representatives from Cisco, for example, have publically stated 
that they would go along with this, oh, about 8 years ago as I recall.

The main "carrot" which is provided is that the manufacturer will then be 
allowed to bid on Government contracts. Considering that the U.S. Government 
is the largest purchaser of IT equipment, this carries a considerable amount 
of weight with large corporations. But the protocols aren't publically 
documented. 

As far as cellphones go, it was revealed last December during the trial of one 
top Mafia honcho that the FBI had tapped his cellphone by remotely turning on 
his cellphone and recording his conversations. Supposedly this was by a hack, 
but the specifics weren't revealed. If memory serves, it was revealed that 
they had the ability to turn on the microphone even if the phone was off.
It was either slashdot or digg which carried this as I recall.

The Feds had apparently determined that this was easier, and less risky, than 
actually bugging his premises.

But this is really kind of old news. This sort of thing was discussed on the 
cypherpunk list 10 years ago.

For Open Source cellphones, all you have to do is to make certain the 
microphone circuitry is designed correctly if you want to prevent this. I 
haven't followed the hardware design here to see to see whether the phone is 
vulnerable to such an attack. Perhaps some of the OpenMoko developers would 
care to comment.

But I can tell you that some of the designs from the Silicon Valley Homebrew
Club will be resistant against such attacks. As well as other attacks. Indeed,
the GSM library that I'm working on (at http://libgsmc.sourceforge.net) is 
specifically designed to be resistant to various attacks from a compromised 
GSM chip (be it lawful intercept or the usual buffer overflows).

Indeed, the main topic at our third gathering was about security, at which I 
gave a talk.

-dwight-

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Re: Neologics

[Sean Moss-Pultz]

On Tue, 2007-03-06 at 08:12 -0500, Richard Franks wrote:
> I found the section on emergence/Neoforms _very_ interesting - I've
> recently been expanding upon this (
> http://www.linuxtogo.org/gowiki/OpenMoko/Ideas/ConceptualFramework )
> from which I've going down similar lines of thought - do you have more
> ideas about Neoforms? 

Yes but would you mind moving this over to wiki.openmoko.org. I would
really rather have this kind of information up in a single location. 

Thanks!

Sean


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