Re: community@lists.openmoko.org

[Simon]

Carlo, thanks for this post.

I was thinking about writting a similar one, but since my english
isn't super, you did a much better job.

Just like all of us, I'm looking forward to have a Neo and start
hacking the little thing.  But the Neo is just the start of a long
story of freedom.

Patience is one thing we can all practice meanwhile.
Programming is another!
Working out the documentation is yet another.

On the other hand, I believe it is important as a community to
recognize that impatience exists and that it is normal.  That there is
no reason to flame someone for not having googled, searched the wiki
and mailing list archived before asking a question.  If there is a
nice and easy place to find the info, why not point the guy there,
with a smile. There are hundreds of others who read the mailing list,
they will follow the link and learn.

Good luck!

Simon

On 10/25/07, Carlo E. Prelz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Subject: community@lists.openmoko.org
> Date: mer 24 ott 07 03:48:18 -0600
>
> Quoting Mark ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):
>
> > You need to keep in mind that:
> >
> > - It takes maybe a couple of minutes at most to fire off a
> > one-paragraph email.
>
> and then it takes untold time and energy to extinguish the fire if the
> promises made in that two-minute, one-paragraph e-mail eventually
> prove to have been too optimist.
>
> here we are not talking about describing the past or present, but
> about foreseeing the future. If you are careful, and make appropriate
> use of past experience, there are good, solid possibilities that your
> forecast may prove true. Two minutes are way too short for this sort
> of exercises.
>
> > - If somebody, anybody, had taken 30 seconds to post a message to the
> > list we wouldn't be having this flood of posts on this topic right
> > now.
>
> No. The flood is caused by lack of patience. An unripe message that
> were to make wild promises may only work as a painkiller.
> Painkillers remove the symptom, but they do not cure the problem.
>
> > - Nobody is asking for an "official", press-release-ready corporate
> > announcement. All we're asking for is something like this:
> >
> > "Sorry, folks, but due to circumstances beyond our control we are not
> > going to be able to make the release at the previously announced time.
> > We are working on the issues and hope to be ready for sale in
> > December."
>
> During the life of this project I have seen several announcements of
> this kind. Coming at the right time.
>
> I prefer not to see messages and to know the energy of the team is
> focused towards having a working hardware as soon as possible, rather
> than to have my impatience quelled by official postponements that have
> no base in real events.
>
> I rest comforted by the facts that a) it is their jobs, not mine, that
> are in relation with a speedy delivery of both openmoko and the neo,
> and b) if, come the worst, no functional phone were to eventually
> surface from this project, well, my old treo still works OK...
>
> The best we can do to help is to provide support and encouragement to
> the hard-working team. And to exercise the subtle art of patience.
>
> Carlo
>
> --
>   * Se la Strada e la sua Virtu' non fossero state messe da parte,
> * K * Carlo E. Prelz - [EMAIL PROTECTED] che bisogno ci sarebbe
>   *   di parlare tanto di amore e di rettitudine? (Chuang-Tzu)
>
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>

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Re: community@lists.openmoko.org

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

I must admit that I can't follow the "patience" idea.

Some facts:
* FIC is a commercial company and they want to sell devices to finaly  
make money
* impatience generates market demand - patient people wait forever.  
This is no good business model.


What happens if the impatient people buy an iPhone and the patient  
ones sit there and simply wait for announcements? This list will  
become quite inactive (in my subjective observation it is already).  
FIC will have to decide that nobody is here anymore impatiently  
waiting for them to deliver anything. And they will finally have to  
cancel the project because it will not be able to meet their  
financial goals.


Impatience shows interested people eagerly waiting for the heroes to  
deliver something extraordinary!


And note: developers are the early adopters. Patient people  
(marketing speak calls them "laggards") are the last to buy something.


And talking about being a customer or not. I do also not agree  
completely that we are developers and not customers and therefore are  
not allowed to demand anything.


Developers have paid (or will pay) for a hardware. Well, we have not  
paid for technical support. But the whole OpenMoko project assumes a  
substantial contribution from the developers towards the project  
success. I.e. we do even invest our time to push the project. So, we  
pay in addition to the device hardware for getting this open  
platform. Therefore, we can IMHO expect some more insight into what  
is going on because we pay more...


Finally, I also wonder a little about the expectation that the hero  
(core) developers should only develop (behind some curtain and not be  
disturbed) and somebody else should write announcements,  
documentation, help, etc. This attitude fits more to closed companies.


Nikolaus Schaller

-
Golden Delicious Computers GmbH&Co. KG
http://www.goldelico.com
Digital Tools for Independent People
-


Am 25.10.2007 um 09:18 schrieb Simon:


Carlo, thanks for this post.

I was thinking about writting a similar one, but since my english
isn't super, you did a much better job.

Just like all of us, I'm looking forward to have a Neo and start
hacking the little thing.  But the Neo is just the start of a long
story of freedom.

Patience is one thing we can all practice meanwhile.
Programming is another!
Working out the documentation is yet another.

On the other hand, I believe it is important as a community to
recognize that impatience exists and that it is normal.  That there is
no reason to flame someone for not having googled, searched the wiki
and mailing list archived before asking a question.  If there is a
nice and easy place to find the info, why not point the guy there,
with a smile. There are hundreds of others who read the mailing list,
they will follow the link and learn.

Good luck!

Simon

On 10/25/07, Carlo E. Prelz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Subject: community@lists.openmoko.org
Date: mer 24 ott 07 03:48:18 -0600

Quoting Mark ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):


You need to keep in mind that:

- It takes maybe a couple of minutes at most to fire off a
one-paragraph email.


and then it takes untold time and energy to extinguish the fire if  
the

promises made in that two-minute, one-paragraph e-mail eventually
prove to have been too optimist.

here we are not talking about describing the past or present, but
about foreseeing the future. If you are careful, and make appropriate
use of past experience, there are good, solid possibilities that your
forecast may prove true. Two minutes are way too short for this sort
of exercises.

- If somebody, anybody, had taken 30 seconds to post a message to  
the

list we wouldn't be having this flood of posts on this topic right
now.


No. The flood is caused by lack of patience. An unripe message that
were to make wild promises may only work as a painkiller.
Painkillers remove the symptom, but they do not cure the problem.


- Nobody is asking for an "official", press-release-ready corporate
announcement. All we're asking for is something like this:

"Sorry, folks, but due to circumstances beyond our control we are  
not
going to be able to make the release at the previously announced  
time.

We are working on the issues and hope to be ready for sale in
December."


During the life of this project I have seen several announcements of
this kind. Coming at the right time.

I prefer not to see messages and to know the energy of the team is
focused towards having a working hardware as soon as possible, rather
than to have my impatience quelled by official postponements that  
have

no base in real events.

I rest comforted by the facts that a) it is their jobs, not mine,  
that

are in relation with a speedy delivery of both openmoko and the neo,
and b) if, come the worst, no functional phone were to eventually
surface from this pr

New input method demo!

[Lars Hallberg]

New demo, download 3key package at:

https://projects.openmoko.org/frs/?group_id=42

Short intro:

3key demo - input method for touchscreen (both finger and stylus).

All good things are three. This is my third demo and it uses three keys!

goal

* Be usable with one hand (hold phone and type with the thumb).
- Reached in full.

* Use little space on the screen. The application should have it!
- Reached in full (take less space then the qwerty keyboard).

* Be usable without visual contact (type in Your pocket).
- Reached.

* Reach all chars and functions and be extendable.
- Reached in full, extendability not implemented in the demo.

* Be usable without training, even if slow.
- Reached, You should get it under one minute.

* Reach descent speed, even if it takes training.
- Reached, but takes allot of training and is still no high speed
  method. The speed is approximately twice as good with stylus vs
  one handed thumb writing. Two handed typing with one finger is
  somewhere in the middle.

/LaH


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Re: New input method demo!

[Simon]

This kind of keyboard looks quite impressive to me.
The only detail is it might be nice to optimize it for different
things such as programming or english text.
I couldn't try it out, but have you thought sorting the characters in
order of "difficulty to type them" according to their "popularity" (in
english text, irc style text with ;) and for programing with lots of
symbols).

I believe it could be possible to ask the user to provide (the
software) an example of documents they most often work on. (For me
C++) And the prog would count the chars and update the keyboard
mapping to adjust for that.  Chars that were not found in document
will take the default popularity...

Anyway, might be a good addition to the wishlist! =)

Simon

On 10/25/07, Lars Hallberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> New demo, download 3key package at:
>
> https://projects.openmoko.org/frs/?group_id=42
>
> Short intro:
>
> 3key demo - input method for touchscreen (both finger and stylus).
>
> All good things are three. This is my third demo and it uses three keys!
>
> goal
>
> * Be usable with one hand (hold phone and type with the thumb).
> - Reached in full.
>
> * Use little space on the screen. The application should have it!
> - Reached in full (take less space then the qwerty keyboard).
>
> * Be usable without visual contact (type in Your pocket).
> - Reached.
>
> * Reach all chars and functions and be extendable.
> - Reached in full, extendability not implemented in the demo.
>
> * Be usable without training, even if slow.
> - Reached, You should get it under one minute.
>
> * Reach descent speed, even if it takes training.
> - Reached, but takes allot of training and is still no high speed
>method. The speed is approximately twice as good with stylus vs
>one handed thumb writing. Two handed typing with one finger is
>somewhere in the middle.
>
> /LaH
>
>
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Re: community@lists.openmoko.org

[Karsten Ensinger]

First of all, on 28. of September Michael Shiloh made the
"announcement" that the GTA02 will be delayed at least until
mid to end of december. EVERYBODY should have been able to
find this "announcement" easily.
So please do NOT complain that this information was not given
early enough. [flame] If you weren't subscribed then, why haven't
you searched the archive before asking (and especially before
complaining that no information was given at all)? [/flame]

Also do not complain that the Wiki is not updated immediately.
Most of the incriminated articles were written by community
members and not by official openmoko employees. So it should
be the responsibility for that members to keep them updated.
If they are to lazy to do this, they should have linked to an
official side instead of stating a "fixed" date. Whatever you
do, but do not blame others.

And because a lot of people claim for "announcements", one should
take into account that "announcements" should only be made for
something, which is already finished. Everything else just
generates "vaporware" (and we already have to much of that kind
of products). This is at least true for commercial products
and the Neo is still in development, hence not a "commercial
product" YET.

I am already a customer of FIC (GTA01v4) and will definitely
also get one of the GTA02 gadgets. In addition to this, I also
started to write an application especially focused on the Neo.
But it appears to me as if most of the people on this community
list just complain about THEIR OWN DREAMS not coming true.
If you want to take part into the community, get a GTA01 and
start making your dreams come true, but please do not complain
that all the fruits within your neighbours backyard (aka. GTA02)
are sweeter than yours (aka. GTA01).

I am deeply grateful that FIC let me take part in this early
phase of development, but I am really pissed of by all this
people here which "got a hand" by FIC and now try to rip off
the complete arm (sorry for my bad english but I am not well
trained in english sayings; that was another german one translated
into english). The Neo is, was, and will be, a product for geeks
and therefore never was intended to be a mass market product.
Geeks do not look at fancy glamour but for useful attributes.
But also geeks do not want to buy faulty hardware (software is
a different beast, in particular if it is open source).
If you want a fancy glamourous mobile, go and get an IPhone.
If you want to hack an open source mobile, go and get a GTA01.
If you want to have the "jack of all trades" aka. GTA02 there
is nothing left but to be patient.
And it won't get any faster if you ask every week when it will be
ready. And only dumb managers expect to get a precise timeframe
if they ask a developer how long it will take to solve a not yet
known problem. And ... no it is not smarter to ask for a vague
estimation, because that would be reading tea leaves and nothing
serious. And ... no it is also not smarter if you accept an
vague estimation just to maintain hope. You only will get disappointed,
because no developer will met a former estimation he made, ever!

I apologize in advance for every indignities someone will find
within my mail, which HE thinks is aimed at him personally.

Regards
Karsten

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Sv: New input method demo!

[Mikkel Meyer Andersen]

Hi,

I've also tried to develop a keyboard for finger-use. I started with
developing a dictionary library, and have only made a very simple GUI to use
it.

I haven't seen you keyboard yet, but I'm really looking forward to. In
addition to this, I hope to be able to incorporate the dictionary I've made.

Regards,
Mikkel

- Original Besked 
fra: List for OpenMoko community discussion 
Til: List for OpenMoko community discussion 
Emne: Re: New input method demo!
Dato: 25/10/07 11:29

> 
> This kind of keyboard looks quite impressive to me.
> The only detail is it might be nice to optimize it for different
> things such as programming or english text.
> I couldn't try it out, but have you thought sorting the characters in
> order of "difficulty to type them" according to their "popularity" (in
> english text, irc style text with ;) and for programing with lots of
> symbols).
> 
> I believe it could be possible to ask the user to provide (the
> software) an example of documents they most often work on. (For me
> C++) And the prog would count the chars and update the keyboard
> mapping to adjust for that.  Chars that were not found in document
> will take the default popularity...
> 
> Anyway, might be a good addition to the wishlist! =)
> 
> Simon
> 
> On 10/25/07, Lars Hallberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > New demo, download 3key package at:
> >
> > https://projects.openmoko.org/frs/?group_id=42
> >
> > Short intro:
> >
> > 3key demo - input method for touchscreen (both finger and stylus).
> >
> > All good things are three. This is my third demo and it uses three keys!
> >
> > goal
> >
> > * Be usable with one hand (hold phone and type with the thumb).
> > - Reached in full.
> >
> > * Use little space on the screen. The application should have it!
> > - Reached in full (take less space then the qwerty keyboard).
> >
> > * Be usable without visual contact (type in Your pocket).
> > - Reached.
> >
> > * Reach all chars and functions and be extendable.
> > - Reached in full, extendability not implemented in the demo.
> >
> > * Be usable without training, even if slow.
> > - Reached, You should get it under one minute.
> >
> > * Reach descent speed, even if it takes training.
> > - Reached, but takes allot of training and is still no high speed
> >method. The speed is approximately twice as good with stylus vs
> >one handed thumb writing. Two handed typing with one finger is
> >somewhere in the middle.
> >
> > /LaH
> >
> >
> > ___
> > OpenMoko community mailing list
> > community@lists.openmoko.org
> > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
> >
> 
> ___
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> 



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Re: New input method demo!

[Jose Manrique Lopez de la Fuente]

Any screenshot?

Thanks,

2007/10/25, Lars Hallberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> New demo, download 3key package at:
>
> https://projects.openmoko.org/frs/?group_id=42
>
> Short intro:
>
> 3key demo - input method for touchscreen (both finger and stylus).
>
> All good things are three. This is my third demo and it uses three keys!
>
> goal
>
> * Be usable with one hand (hold phone and type with the thumb).
> - Reached in full.
>
> * Use little space on the screen. The application should have it!
> - Reached in full (take less space then the qwerty keyboard).
>
> * Be usable without visual contact (type in Your pocket).
> - Reached.
>
> * Reach all chars and functions and be extendable.
> - Reached in full, extendability not implemented in the demo.
>
> * Be usable without training, even if slow.
> - Reached, You should get it under one minute.
>
> * Reach descent speed, even if it takes training.
> - Reached, but takes allot of training and is still no high speed
>method. The speed is approximately twice as good with stylus vs
>one handed thumb writing. Two handed typing with one finger is
>somewhere in the middle.
>
> /LaH
>
>
> ___
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>


-- 
J. Manrique López de la Fuente
http://www.jsmanrique.es

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Re: New input method demo!

[Zalunin Pavel]

yeah, please let us see

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Best Regards , Zalunin Pavel
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Re: Exact release date of GTA02v4?

[andutt]

Hi Steven

Thats no problem, i can be very patient. I think what the community want is
just a date, when the device is "planned" to be shipped.

/Andreas U

On 10/24/07, Steven ** <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Note that that is an estimated timeline created by a community member.
> Don't take those dates as gospel and then get upset if they're missed.
>
> We all want the GTA02 ASAP.  But we also want the hardware to be in
> perfect working order.  If it's rushed, there's a much larger chance of
> issues being found after it's been delivered.  We don't want that.  So,
> let's all just be a little patient here.
>
> -Steven
>
> On 10/24/07, Andreas Utterberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > Thanx...
> >
> > Thats the post i have been waiting on
> >
> > /Andreas
> >
> > On 10/24/07, Mark < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > > Since no one else has seen fit to make an appropriate post, I'm
> > > pasting this from the one place on the site that has some information:
> > >
> > >
> > > Estimated time line
> > > * Sep 20 - GTA02v3 design finalized.
> > > * Sep 25 - GTA02v3 serious flaw found, GTA02v4 needed.
> > > * Oct 15 - GTA02v4 design finalized.
> > > * Oct 30 - GTA02v4 design produced, and shipped to qualified
> > > developers.
> > > * Nov 20 - GTA02v4 design verified through testing by developers.
> > > * Dec 10 - GTA02v4 produced in moderate volume
> > > * Dec 20 - GTA02v4 goes on sale
> > > * Dec 25 - GTA02v4 arrives. See Santa's Sleigh Package Service.
> > >
> > >
> > > However, I suggest everyone take this with a grain of salt and not
> > > expect anything until well after the New Year.
> > >
> > > Wolfmane
> > >
> > > ___
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> > > community@lists.openmoko.org
> > > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Andreas Utterberg
> > Thundera AB
> > ___
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> > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
> >
> >
>
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>
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Re: New input method demo!

[Vincent]

On 25/10/2007, Zalunin Pavel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> yeah, please let us see
>

I've made a screencast:

Ogg - http://download185.mediafire.com/ydgn9myztddg/8gv01d9fq7j/out.ogg
Avi - http://www.viddler.com/show_movie!orgFile.action?movieToken=b6ed9b11
Flash - http://www.viddler.com/explore/Vincentt/videos/16/

__
>
> Best Regards , Zalunin Pavel
>

Best,

-- 
Vincent
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Event: Future of Mobile

[john]

Will anyone from OpenMoko or the community be attending Future of
Mobile in London?

http://www.future-of-mobile.com/

I plan to go so let me know if you are and fancy meeting up.

Cheers,

John.

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Re: Exact release date of GTA02v4?

[Frans Grotepass]

On Thursday 25 October 2007, andutt wrote:
> Hi Steven
>
> Thats no problem, i can be very patient. I think what the community want is
> just a date, when the device is "planned" to be shipped.

The problem with that is that a company feels pressurised to release something 
that can't meet the expectations that were planned. Most businesses are 
rather quiet about planned releases. That is not without reason.


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Telemobilityforum

[Paolo Cavallini]

Hi all.
We have been invited to Telemobilityforum, where we have a space for a
conference:
http://wiki.gfoss.it/index.php/Telemobilityforum
We would be happy if someone from OpenMoko community could come to talk
about OM potential for mobility. Preferably the talk should be in
Italian, but that's not an absolute necessity (most people speaks en
anyway).
Anyone available? I think it is a very good occasion for the community.
All the best.
pc
-- 
Paolo Cavallini, see: http://www.faunalia.it/pc



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Re: New input method demo!

[Lars Hallberg]

Vincent skrev:
On 25/10/2007, *Zalunin Pavel* 

yeah, please let us see 


I've made a screencast:


Thanks /LaH


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Re: Telemobilityforum

[Marco Crociani - Tyrael]

Hi,
I has a Neo 1973 (base version) and I live at 24km from Monza.
The problem is talking "about OM potential for mobility." I'm not
expert in mobility.

2007/10/25, Paolo Cavallini <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Hi all.
> We have been invited to Telemobilityforum, where we have a space for a
> conference:
> http://wiki.gfoss.it/index.php/Telemobilityforum
> We would be happy if someone from OpenMoko community could come to talk
> about OM potential for mobility. Preferably the talk should be in
> Italian, but that's not an absolute necessity (most people speaks en
> anyway).
> Anyone available? I think it is a very good occasion for the community.
> All the best.
> pc
> --
> Paolo Cavallini, see: http://www.faunalia.it/pc
>
>
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>
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-- 
Marco Crociani - Tyrael
* Perchè usare Formati Aperti? - http://www.openformats.org
* Apri la mente, libera i tuoi pensieri. Usa Software Libero.
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Feature request -- SMS spam blocking?

[Derek Pressnall]

Question about how SMS messages work.  Does the software stack have to
perform a a seperate action to retrieve an inbound sms message, or is
the message text actually part of the alert from the gsm chip?  If a
seperate action has to be taken to retrieve the sms message, then do
the phone carriers charge for the message regardless if it is
retrieved?
If the inbound sms alert contains a source phone number, then it would
be a nice option for the messaging app to accept only messages from
people in your address book (ie., whitelisting).  Could be an
effective way to block sms spams.

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Re: community@lists.openmoko.org

[Jeff Andros]

On 10/25/07, Karsten Ensinger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> 

[flame] If you weren't subscribed then, why haven't
> you searched the archive before asking (and especially before
> complaining that no information was given at all)? [/flame]
> 
>
> Regards
> Karsten
>
>
> I can see what you're saying, people who subscribed right after one of
Micheal or Sean's really important emails might wait for a while before the
next one.  To them, it would appear that these things never go out, and that
they're in the dark.

It seems to me that we see these kind of conversations start about every
other month.

What about creating a "state of the project" email that is sent on
subscribe, kind of a welcome to openmoko, here's what's going on: a 2 minute
blurb to bring people up to speed, and reference them to the appropriate
wiki pages to find out what else they need?  This would need to be kept
reasonably up to date, probably revised after every big announcement, and
after the bi-weekly emails.

To a new subscriber though, it would give them an "official" answer about
what's going on, until they can see some of the updates that get sent out.

What do people think? Might this solve some of the problem?

-- 
Jeff
O|||O
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Re: Feature request -- SMS spam blocking?

[Doug Sutherland]

Regarding SMS, a few basic comments on how it works ...
First, there is a message service center address, that is the 
link to the provider and is set with the +CSCA command.
The device (phone) can be set to allow originations (send),
terminations (receive) and broadcast type messages, set 
with the +CMCS (select message service). 

There is an alert called new message indicator, the behavior 
of which is set with +CNMI (New Message Indications).
There is command to list messages +CMGL. And yes there
is command to receive message +CMGR. 

The billing of messaging is entirely carrier dependent. 
There is no generic rule that can apply to everyone. 
Some carriers for example may not charge for incoming
messages while others will. As far as I know there is no
way to block specific origins in a way that would stop
billing of messages. So the answer is it is technically 
possibly to only receive (+CMGR) messages in your 
address book, that could be effective in blocking spam
messages, but afaik that has no impact on billing. How 
it is billed depends on your carrier, and which plan or
messaging feature you have.

Doug Sutherland
Proficio Research
http://www.proficio.ca/

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Re: Exact release date of GTA02v4?

[Michael Shiloh]

Hello Andreas, and everyone else,

Andreas writes:
> Thats no problem, i can be very patient. I think what the community
> want is just a date, when the device is "planned" to be shipped.

Many years ago, I had a running joke with a co-worker. Every time 
someone said "just" we would role our eyes at each other and repeat the 
sentence, emphasizing the word "just".


As others here have explained, we are involving the community in the 
process of designing, manufacturing, and distributing in a way that is 
simply not done. We are experimenting and learning as we go along. There 
are no models for this sort of project, no experts to turn to to ask 
"how is this done".


It seems so simple, but in fact it is extremely complicated.

If you look at the history of this mailing list, you will see that Sean, 
Harald, and others started off being very generous with their 
information, and then having to spend a tremendous amount of energy 
calming angry readers when deadlines were missed. As you continue to 
study the history of this mailing list, you will notice an increasing 
level of frustration in all parties.


This is one reason I was brought in. Having come from the community, I 
hopefully represent the community well, but now in the company, I 
hopefully can balance being in both worlds.


My goal is not to get as frustrated as Sean or Harald or the others who 
have gone before me. Perhaps since I'm in the middle, I'm supposed to 
get half as frustrated :-)


In fact this is very complicated. Since everyone in OpenMoko knows that 
I am the channel to the community, I suspect there is a certain 
reluctance to being completely open with me. Believe me, I have as hard 
a time getting updates from OpenMoko people as you have getting it from 
me. (Again, since I'm in the middle, perhaps this is exactly as it 
should be.) On the other hand, the community knows that I know more than 
they do, and don't understand why I can't share all this information.


So to answer your question, Andreas: We can not give the community the 
date for when the device is planned to ship, because we do not have such 
a date.


What we have is a plan that gets increasingly vague as it moves into the 
future.


What I know for sure:

We, and Harald in particular, are quite happy with GTA02v3.

GTA02v4 has been made and should be showing up on Harald's desk any day 
now. True, I said this a couple of days ago, and I have not yet received 
any confirmation that the device has shown up on his desk, so I must 
presume it has not yet.


Once GTA02v4 shows up on Harald's desk, there will follow a period of 
very careful inspection and testing. Only when there is a high level of 
confidence will we move forward.


How long will this take? We don't know. It depends on what we find.

For example, remember that the drivers aren't all finished. This means 
that the testing will sometimes be delayed pending drivers, and other 
times will be tested with test software that (we hope) is very similar 
to the drivers, but whether it is sufficiently similar we won't know 
until the driver is finished. So someone might need to make the decision 
of whether to approve of the subsystem under test after having been 
verified by the test software, or whether to wait for the driver itself. 
Obviously such a decision depends on how confident they are in the test 
software, and how much longer the "real" driver is expected to take, and 
how risky it is to find a flaw in this subsystem after say 1000 units 
have been sent out to customers.


Quite a big responsibility. If I were in their shoes, I would be very 
tempted to wait for the driver. Even though the community is anxious to 
get the hardware, even if the software isn't finished.


As others have said so eloquently, we are doing our best. We are far 
from perfect, but we are trying.


My personal goal is to continue improving both the quantity and quality 
of information that I bring from the company to you.


Regards,
Michael


andutt wrote:

Hi Steven

Thats no problem, i can be very patient. I think what the community want 
is just a date, when the device is "planned" to be shipped.


/Andreas U

On 10/24/07, *Steven *** <[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> wrote:


Note that that is an estimated timeline created by a community
member.  Don't take those dates as gospel and then get upset if
they're missed.

We all want the GTA02 ASAP.  But we also want the hardware to be in
perfect working order.  If it's rushed, there's a much larger chance
of issues being found after it's been delivered.  We don't want
that.  So, let's all just be a little patient here.

-Steven

On 10/24/07, *Andreas Utterberg* < [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:

Thanx...

Thats the post i have been waiting on

/Andreas


On 10/24/07, *Mark* < [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:

Since no one 

Re: Telemobilityforum

[Michael Shiloh]

Hi Marco,

You could give a generic introduction to what OpenMoko is, why Open 
Source is a different approach, and how Open Source can foster 
innovation in any area (including mobility) in ways closed source simply 
can't.


Community? Anything to add?

Michael



Marco Crociani - Tyrael wrote:

Hi,
I has a Neo 1973 (base version) and I live at 24km from Monza.
The problem is talking "about OM potential for mobility." I'm not
expert in mobility.

2007/10/25, Paolo Cavallini <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

Hi all.
We have been invited to Telemobilityforum, where we have a space for a
conference:
http://wiki.gfoss.it/index.php/Telemobilityforum
We would be happy if someone from OpenMoko community could come to talk
about OM potential for mobility. Preferably the talk should be in
Italian, but that's not an absolute necessity (most people speaks en
anyway).
Anyone available? I think it is a very good occasion for the community.
All the best.
pc
--
Paolo Cavallini, see: http://www.faunalia.it/pc


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"state of the project" message sent upon subscription

[Michael Shiloh]

Jeff,

That's a great idea. I'll look into implementing this.

Thanks,
Michael

Jeff Andros wrote:



What about creating a "state of the project" email that is sent on 
subscribe, kind of a welcome to openmoko, here's what's going on: a 2 
minute blurb to bring people up to speed, and reference them to the 
appropriate wiki pages to find out what else they need?  This would need 
to be kept reasonably up to date, probably revised after every big 
announcement, and after the bi-weekly emails.


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Re: community@lists.openmoko.org

[Adam]

The GTA02 redesign is what caused the delay.  Mass produce GTA01 with an 
unfinished software stack, no WiFi, no smedia graphics accelerator, no 
accelerometer, no working aGPS; waiting four months to release the mass 
produced GTA02 with all those things in it. 
You get all the iphone comparisons, customers complaining about buggy 
software, and customers complaining about the GTA02 being released four 
months later.  I think this way would be a disservice to openmoko and 
embedded linux systems.


Or produce limited numbers of GTA01, until GTA02 is ready, hopefully 
fixing the software stack and aGPS by then.  You must have patience with 
this choice though.  If this was a normal company all you would receive 
is a press release or a footnote buried in an annual report about a 
"delay."  I think they are doing the right thing overall.


Adam


Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:

I must admit that I can't follow the "patience" idea.

Some facts:
* FIC is a commercial company and they want to sell devices to finaly 
make money
* impatience generates market demand - patient people wait forever. 
This is no good business model.


What happens if the impatient people buy an iPhone and the patient 
ones sit there and simply wait for announcements? This list will 
become quite inactive (in my subjective observation it is already). 
FIC will have to decide that nobody is here anymore impatiently 
waiting for them to deliver anything. And they will finally have to 
cancel the project because it will not be able to meet their financial 
goals.


Impatience shows interested people eagerly waiting for the heroes to 
deliver something extraordinary!


And note: developers are the early adopters. Patient people (marketing 
speak calls them "laggards") are the last to buy something.


And talking about being a customer or not. I do also not agree 
completely that we are developers and not customers and therefore are 
not allowed to demand anything.


Developers have paid (or will pay) for a hardware. Well, we have not 
paid for technical support. But the whole OpenMoko project assumes a 
substantial contribution from the developers towards the project 
success. I.e. we do even invest our time to push the project. So, we 
pay in addition to the device hardware for getting this open platform. 
Therefore, we can IMHO expect some more insight into what is going on 
because we pay more...


Finally, I also wonder a little about the expectation that the hero 
(core) developers should only develop (behind some curtain and not be 
disturbed) and somebody else should write announcements, 
documentation, help, etc. This attitude fits more to closed companies.


Nikolaus Schaller

-
Golden Delicious Computers GmbH&Co. KG
http://www.goldelico.com
Digital Tools for Independent People
-


Am 25.10.2007 um 09:18 schrieb Simon:


Carlo, thanks for this post.

I was thinking about writting a similar one, but since my english
isn't super, you did a much better job.

Just like all of us, I'm looking forward to have a Neo and start
hacking the little thing.  But the Neo is just the start of a long
story of freedom.

Patience is one thing we can all practice meanwhile.
Programming is another!
Working out the documentation is yet another.

On the other hand, I believe it is important as a community to
recognize that impatience exists and that it is normal.  That there is
no reason to flame someone for not having googled, searched the wiki
and mailing list archived before asking a question.  If there is a
nice and easy place to find the info, why not point the guy there,
with a smile. There are hundreds of others who read the mailing list,
they will follow the link and learn.

Good luck!

Simon

On 10/25/07, Carlo E. Prelz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Subject: community@lists.openmoko.org
Date: mer 24 ott 07 03:48:18 -0600

Quoting Mark ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):


You need to keep in mind that:

- It takes maybe a couple of minutes at most to fire off a
one-paragraph email.


and then it takes untold time and energy to extinguish the fire if the
promises made in that two-minute, one-paragraph e-mail eventually
prove to have been too optimist.

here we are not talking about describing the past or present, but
about foreseeing the future. If you are careful, and make appropriate
use of past experience, there are good, solid possibilities that your
forecast may prove true. Two minutes are way too short for this sort
of exercises.


- If somebody, anybody, had taken 30 seconds to post a message to the
list we wouldn't be having this flood of posts on this topic right
now.


No. The flood is caused by lack of patience. An unripe message that
were to make wild promises may only work as a painkiller.
Painkillers remove the symptom, but they do not cure the problem.


- Nobody is asking for an "official", press-release-ready

Re: Exact release date of GTA02v4?

[Gabriel Ambuehl]

On Thursday 25 October 2007 22:07:52 Michael Shiloh wrote:
> As others have said so eloquently, we are doing our best. We are far
> from perfect, but we are trying.
>
> My personal goal is to continue improving both the quantity and quality
> of information that I bring from the company to you.


This is a (nearly) perfect explanation of what's going on. Store it some place 
safe, you'll need it again. If not with GTA02 revision then surely with 
GTA03!


signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
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Re: community@lists.openmoko.org

[AVee]

On Wednesday 24 October 2007 01:25, Richard Reichenbacher wrote:
> Mark wrote:
> > Richard Reichenbacher richard5 at email.arizona.edu
> > Tue Oct 23 21:03:31 CEST 2007
> >
> >> Or perhaps you could continue searching the wiki for updated
> >> information.
> >>
> >> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GTA02
> >>
> >> Scroll down to estimated time line.
> >
> > Oh, yeah, there's a single place in the entire wiki that gives updated
> > information. It's so reasonable to expect everybody to dig through
> > the entire site to find it, amid the multitude of places that still
> > say OCTOBER...
> >
> > All I'm asking for is the occasional update on the "announce" list
> > (what is that list for, anyway, if it's not for exactly this kind of
> > thing?). There hasn't been a post to that list for a month, and
> > that was only a request for help on the Web-shop. The last "real" post
> > to that list was on August 20, more than two months ago. Do you really
> > think that's reasonable
> >
> > If this is the kind of attitude and customer service we can expect
> > after we buy the thing, I'm not so sure I'm interested anymore...

Did you buy a GTA02? No? Well, in that case, your not a customer, so quit 
bitching about 'customer service'. You are getting a peek into the 
development proccess at FIC, that not something you usually get with other 
companies and you surely can't claim some sort of right to be informed about 
this. 
If you can't handle it, unsubscribe from the community list and wait for the 
announcement you telling you the thing is available, *like you would with any 
other product*. Or be happy with whatever information you may get, realizing 
it's all extra.

AVee

-- 
An apple every eight hours will keep three doctors away.

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Re: community@lists.openmoko.org

[Markus Schlichting]

Andreas Utterberg schrieb:
> Nice approach!?. Not!, why flame everyone that have a oppinion?
> Thats what community work is all about.
> Lets face it, the month is wrong and the information is hard to find
> for new customers, users and developers.
>
Hi,
I don't think so -I'm a newbie to OpenMoko and found the updated
schedule during my fist time reading the wiki. It's not so hard to find
nor is it hard to understand why the releasetimes are estimated. AFAIK
this is an Project focussed on the technical plattform instead of a
short time-to-market. Just keep that in mind.

 Markus

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Re: community@lists.openmoko.org

[Tim Boneko]

Mark schrieb:

> - It takes maybe a couple of minutes at most to fire off a one-paragraph 
> email.

Mark,
this is leading nowhere. OpenMoko is a community effort - would you mind
to give some  input? You might become "wiki updater" who gets emails
from the developers and puts the information into that wiki. The only
obstacle is that the developers and other decision makers actually
inform you. Half of the energy you spent in this thread could have
brought the project forward.

Your opinion? Is this idea completely nuts?

timbo

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Re: Telemobilityforum

[Alessandro Iurlano]

On 10/25/07, Michael Shiloh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi Marco,
>
> You could give a generic introduction to what OpenMoko is, why Open
> Source is a different approach, and how Open Source can foster
> innovation in any area (including mobility) in ways closed source simply
> can't.
>
> Community? Anything to add?
>

As the meeting seems to center on GPS solutions, I think that saying
that OpenMoko's GPS is not working at the moment would not be a good
point for the project.
Last news I heard about gllin was that license problem has been worked
out and there is a working chroot for it. Would it be possible to have
a prototype or pre-release of it to have something meaningful to show?
I would very gladly help Marco with the presentation and the software to show.

Here is the english version of the webpage of the meeting:
http://www.telemobilityforum.com/eng/

Regards,
Alessandro

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Re: Fwd: SSH Confusion -- Question

[Jeff Andros]

>
>
> I hope I have not been too much of a bonehead.
>
> I found this (http://www.cpqlinux.com/sshcopy.html) on ssh file copying
> -- which I'll need to do tomorrow as I try to put an image in the sd
> card via my new ssh facility. This information might also be useful for
> newbies like me.
>
> I agree that Google is my friend.
>
> I appreciate the help I have gotten. I'll try not to abuse.
>
> George
>
> The general rule is, the older the list, the less tolerant of such things
they tend to be, this is a pretty young one, so don't worry TOO much.

Also one of the guiding ideals of the project is that it will eventually be
ready for mass-market users (Sean said he wanted it to be a phone his dad
could use) Once that happens, we're going to get a flood of these kind of
questions, unless we're ready for them... asking questions like this helps
tweak that process

I've started a linux newbies section in the "other resources" page on the
wiki(http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Other_Resources) (I'm not sure if that
info should go there or on its own page, but with the current navigation, it
seemed like the best place to put it) and included the previous links.
Eventually it would be nice to have a convenient "look on the wiki here and
it will get you to the right place" link for questions like this.


-- 
Jeff
O|||O
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Re: New input method demo!

[Simon]

Or you can read the Readme, there's an ascii drawing and the two
paragraph helps you understand how it's used.

Simon

On 10/25/07, Lars Hallberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Vincent skrev:
> > On 25/10/2007, *Zalunin Pavel*
> >
> > yeah, please let us see
> >
> > I've made a screencast:
>
> Thanks /LaH
>
>
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community@lists.openmoko.org

[Mark]

AVee [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Fri Oct 26 00:40:21 CEST 2007 AVee wrote:
>Did you buy a GTA02? No? Well, in that case, your not a customer, so quit
>bitching about 'customer service'. You are getting a peek into the
>development proccess at FIC, that not something you usually get with other
>companies and you surely can't claim some sort of right to be informed about
>this.
>If you can't handle it, unsubscribe from the community list and wait for the
>announcement you telling you the thing is available, *like you would with any
>other product*. Or be happy with whatever information you may get, realizing
>it's all extra.
>
>AVee

Here's the deal: I'm already a customer in the same way that I'm the
customer of a store the instant I pass the threshold. My experience in
the store determines whether and how much money I spend in the store.
If the employees ignore me (repeatedly) when I ask them a direct
question, and allow other "customers" to scream and yell at me for
simply asking a question, then I certainly will immediately exit the
building and spend my money elsewhere. I also will tell everybody I
know about my experience to prevent them going through the same thing.

Whether you like it or not, OpenMoko will never get off the ground
without the Neo1973, and the Neo1973 will never get off the ground
without early adopters like me to buy it and spread the word. This is
a business venture, not a pet project.

On the other hand, if everything that prospective buyers hear is
negative, that doesn't offer much hope for the future of this project.

Question: Who is it wiser to treat well, someone whose money you
already have, or someone whose money you need?

Anybody here ever hear of the Agenda VR3? Probably very few. History
is littered with multitudes of great ideas and great vaporware that
never made it to mainstream because those behind it either didn't
understand or thought they could get away with ignoring the rules of
business.

The first rule of business is not to alienate potential customers.

Another of the biggest rules of business (and strongly associated with
the first rule) is that when you know you aren't going to make a
deadline (that you have plastered in multiple places all over your Web
site), *before* the deadline passes you let people know what's going
on. Making a single vague reference that buyers may or may not find is
not sufficient.

It's up to you: do the right thing, or go the way of the Agenda VR3.
But if it's the latter, you can't say you haven't been warned.

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"state of the project" message sent upon subscription

[Mark]

Jeff Andros wrote:
>
> What about creating a "state of the project" email that is sent on
> subscribe, kind of a welcome to openmoko, here's what's going on: a 2
> minute blurb to bring people up to speed, and reference them to the
> appropriate wiki pages to find out what else they need?  This would need
> to be kept reasonably up to date, probably revised after every big
> announcement, and after the bi-weekly emails.

That's a good start, but it's not nearly enough. That only addresses
people just joining, and it doesn't take into account the fact that
all the people who are only subscribed because they want to buy will
*not* be subscribing to any other lists. In fact, the instructions to
newcomers direct them to subscribe to the "announce" list, *not* this
one, so they will be completely in the dark. In fact, there may be
hundreds subscribed to the announce list who are expecting, as I was,
any updates to be posted to that list and are still completely unaware
of details of the postponement.

The bottom line is this suggestion is exactly what I was asking for in
the first place, with the one and only difference being that I was
asking for that information to be posted to the announce list.

But my request was somehow unreasonable and this one is not?

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Re: "state of the project" message sent upon subscription

[Pietro "m0nt0" Montorfano]

Michael Shiloh ha scritto:

Jeff,

That's a great idea. I'll look into implementing this.

Thanks,
Michael

Jeff Andros wrote:



What about creating a "state of the project" email that is sent on 
subscribe, kind of a welcome to openmoko, here's what's going on: a 2 
minute blurb to bring people up to speed, and reference them to the 
appropriate wiki pages to find out what else they need?  This would 
need to be kept reasonably up to date, probably revised after every 
big announcement, and after the bi-weekly emails.


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Hi all, it could be also a good idea to have something like this
http://madwifi.org/roadmap
(done with this http://trac.edgewall.org/ software)
to keep anyone updated about the project. Not intended to use it as a 
roadmap with dates and deadlines, but used as a TODO list, so anyone 
could see that the tests with GTA02v3 are on the way and that the 
development of OpenMoko is at this state, the gps is not working 
actually and so on.
I don't think that every possible customer will subscribe to this ml, 
some of my friends didn't (we will buy some Neos to split the shipping 
tax) and when i said that the neo will be out (we hope) on december/jan 
it was a news for them.
So a simple roadmap or also a TODO list web page could be interesting to 
see which are the steps for the project and have a general idea of 
what's going on.
I like ml and i prefer them, but you can't subscribe to any ml to get 
information about all project you are interested in.


What about this idea?

It could be updated by the subscribers of this ml, so the guys from FIC 
could concentrate on testing and noone will "have to do" that because it 
could be annoying for a developer to "write sw, debug, write to the ml, 
change road map status," (at least it could be annoying for some devs).



See Ya

Pietro

[ot I'm from Erba italian friends :D [/ot]

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Re: "state of the project" message sent upon subscription

[Evgeny Ginzburg]

Michael Shiloh wrote:

Jeff,

That's a great idea. I'll look into implementing this.

Thanks,
Michael


Ni Michael
Think deeper, how about automating of this issue?


Software bugs:
10 new | 11 resolved
Hardware bubs:
4 new  | 2 resolved

New Projects this week:
http://projects.openmoko.org/projects/mokogammon/

The page of the week:
http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GPS_Navigation
Jump on and improve it. We need you help.


You can imagine any type of output.
Simple python script can do all the stats, mail to you, you will add 
come comments.

Voilà! You got community update.

Best regards, Evgeny



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