2 beginner questions

[rakshat hooja]

I just got my neo 1973 by mail today and I will try to flash the image and
load rootfs sometime in the evening. Just had a couple of questions as i am
new here.

1. Is there a place where the latest tested image and rootfs is available
for download. the wiki links to a number of files and one is not sure which
image matches the rootfs.
2. When I have connected the usb cable to a powered usb port and the neo is
switched off is it charging (there is no indicator)

thanks

Rakshat

PS i am going through the wiki but if there is a forum where these questions
have already been answered please guide me there so i don't mail the entire
list every time.

On 11/5/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
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>
>1. Community Update GPS comments... (Paul Breed)
>
>
> -- Forwarded message --
> From: Paul Breed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: community@lists.openmoko.org
> Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007 16:27:44 -0700
> Subject: Community Update GPS comments...
> At the lowest level GPS runs hardware ranges or   time offsets from
> each satellite.
> This does not directly give you a position. Some significant
> spherical trig is necessary to turn this into position.
>
> A lot of (AGPS) phones only have that hardware and rely on some system
> software
> (maybe not even on the phone) to turn that into a location. It makes
> a lot of sense that if you
> have a powerful CPU you don;t need to add another powerful CPU to
> turn this GPS
> base band info into PVT (position velocity and time).
>
> The second issue with GPS is that if you are going to take raw data
> and generate PVT then
> you have to do the GPS limitations that keep the system from being a
> ballistic missile guidance
> system IE you cant report position if altitude > 60K ft and
> velocity > 1000 knots or some such.
> So if you plan to sell such hardware in the US then unless it has
> these limits encoded
> in a way that is not trivial to defeat it become a ITAR controlled
> munition.
>
> It sounds like the origional GTA01 used a standard phone AGPS that
> does not directly calculate position,
> a great technical solution, but it does not work in real partical US
> political world with the ITAR
> GPS restrictions.
>
> for details on what it takes to calculate position from the raw data see:
> http://home-2.worldonline.nl/~samsvl/software.htm
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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-- 
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Please use Firefox as your web browser. Its protects you from spyware and is
also a very feature rich browser.
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google open phone platform

[Robin Paulson]

the digg and /. readers here have probably seen it already:

http://www.engadget.com/2007/11/05/live-coverage-of-googles-android-gphone-mobile-os-announcement

looks like google are announcing an open-source linux based phone OS,
supported by a lot of big names in the hardware industry - htc,
qualcomm, motorola. no nokia though and no specifics on things like
open drivers/hardware specs

is this about to swamp the sterling work of FIC and openmoko?

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Google's "Android" open phone stack announced

[Mark Arvidson]

http://www.news.com/Google-unveils-cell-phone-software-and-alliance/2100-1039_3-6217001.html

Did they not see Openmoko.org? It looks like the Google name carries weight
and can roll over juggernaut style like MS.

What does this mean in the long run for OpenMoko, and how will these two
project parallelize?

--sagacis
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Re: Google's "Android" open phone stack announced

[Tim Shannon]

In an ideal world, this would be only good for open moko.  More open source
apps for mobile phones.  Hopefully interoperability between the two
platforms will fall into place.

On 11/5/07, Mark Arvidson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> http://www.news.com/Google-unveils-cell-phone-software-and-alliance/2100-1039_3-6217001.html
>
> Did they not see Openmoko.org? It looks like the Google name carries
> weight and can roll over juggernaut style like MS.
>
> What does this mean in the long run for OpenMoko, and how will these two
> project parallelize?
>
> --sagacis
>
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RE: google open phone platform

[Dean Collins]

Yep pretty much.

There is a time and a window for technology releases like this and FIC's
time has come and gone. I hate to put it bluntly but; 

It's not hard to think about things like an opensource mobile OS's.

It's not even that hard to convince someone to invest in it.

It is hard to get out Beta and then retail 1.0 but the really hard part
is being able to invest time and time again in new ideas to be on the
breaking edge of technology and innovation.

It was FIC's window 6-8 months ago but now when the industry stalwarts
are crashing at your door it's time to close up shop, sit on the beach
and think of the next coolest thing.

Next time maybe"speed to market' can be part of your business plan.


Regards,

Dean Collins
Cognation Pty Ltd
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
+1-212-203-4357 Ph
+61-2-9016-5642 (Sydney in-dial).


> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:community-
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Robin Paulson
> Sent: Monday, 5 November 2007 2:37 PM
> To: List for OpenMoko community discussion
> Subject: google open phone platform
> 
> the digg and /. readers here have probably seen it already:
> 
>
http://www.engadget.com/2007/11/05/live-coverage-of-googles-android-gpho
ne-
> mobile-os-announcement
> 
> looks like google are announcing an open-source linux based phone OS,
> supported by a lot of big names in the hardware industry - htc,
> qualcomm, motorola. no nokia though and no specifics on things like
> open drivers/hardware specs
> 
> is this about to swamp the sterling work of FIC and openmoko?
> 
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Re: 2 beginner questions

[andy selby]

> 1. Is there a place where the latest tested image and rootfs is available
> for download. the wiki links to a number of files and one is not sure which
> image matches the rootfs.

Well blow me down, the tested kernel/rootfs wiki page has been updated
at last, http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Phase_1_Software_Testing
with a build from yesterday, scroll down to the bottom and try that.
Otherwise click on the links in the repositories page
http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Repositories and then click on 'last
modified' twice to bring the latest added to the top of the page,
although these may not have any feedback about them.

> 2. When I have connected the usb cable to a powered usb port and the neo is
> switched off is it charging (there is no indicator)

The neo is charging when it is off, when my neo is on and connected to
my pc it disconnects my usb modem so I _only_ charge it via usb when
it is off.
By the way, in my bios I have set 'halt' to 'all but keyboard' so my
usb periphs are on even when the pc is off so I can charge the neo
when the pc is off, though it may be only 100ma

> thanks
>
> Rakshat
>
> PS i am going through the wiki but if there is a forum where these questions
> have already been answered please guide me there so i don't mail the entire
> list every time.

There is a forum,I forget where but its low volume, instead type into google
your search term here site:wiki.openmoko.org
to search the wiki using google.
If you want to ask questions about the neo1973 you should post to the
device owners mailing list.

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Re: google open phone platform

[Thorsten Flohr]

Hi,

I don't mind googles plan to deliver an open source operating system for
mobile phones. I also don't mind that 30 big companies are involved in the
development. Why don't I? Because I don't want this operating system. It
can't be something good, because every one of the members of this alliance
only wants my money... and my data.

Let's go one step back. One year ago I started using the google service. I
started up with gmail and now I'm using intensively gmail, calendar and
reader. Why do I? Because it's the only really working thing to use a
comfortable environment for mail, appointments and news at home and at work.
Also I need all the stuff on my palm, but I dont want to enter it there.
With goosync I get what I want.

Often I think that it can't be good to offer google my data, but in the end
I do it, because it's so comfortable and for the few ads adblock plus is my
friend. But in the end, I trust google less every day. The more I see how
big they become the more I think, that I need to move my data to a different
place. But to which place?

At least, I really don't like ads. And what I can't imagine is that I will
use a mobile phone os which shows me ads in context to the last call I did,
and offer the other 30 companies my data for their services. No way.

So, please do me a favor. Bring the cool openmoko to the market. On this OS
I know my data is save, and I don't get those annoying ads.

Google will not free my phone, it will be just a new way to make me
dependent on their services.

Free my phone with OpenMoKo. Free my life.

-- 
Best regards

Thorsten
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RE: google open phone platform

[morricone]

Dean Collins wrote:

> [snip]

Actually this whole Open Handset Alliance is a farce. Haven't you read the
FAQ [1]?

>Why did you pick the Apache v2 open source license?
> Apache is a commercial-friendly open-source license. The Apache license
>allows manufacturers and mobile operators to innovate using the platform
>without the requirement to contribute those innovations back to the
>open-source community. Because these innovations and differentiated
>features can be kept proprietary, manufacturers and mobile operators are
>protected from the "viral infection" problem often associated with other
>licenses.

This Alliance just shows how they fear that Openmoko might be successful.

Regards

[1] http://www.openhandsetalliance.com/android_faq.html


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Re: google open phone platform

[Thomas Gstädtner]

They talk about open standards, not full open source.
Seems the basic components will be Apache Licenced, but I'm pretty sure the
low-level software will be closed.

On 11/5/07, Dean Collins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Yep pretty much.
>
> There is a time and a window for technology releases like this and FIC's
> time has come and gone. I hate to put it bluntly but;
>
> It's not hard to think about things like an opensource mobile OS's.
>
> It's not even that hard to convince someone to invest in it.
>
> It is hard to get out Beta and then retail 1.0 but the really hard part
> is being able to invest time and time again in new ideas to be on the
> breaking edge of technology and innovation.
>
> It was FIC's window 6-8 months ago but now when the industry stalwarts
> are crashing at your door it's time to close up shop, sit on the beach
> and think of the next coolest thing.
>
> Next time maybe"speed to market' can be part of your business plan.
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Dean Collins
> Cognation Pty Ltd
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> +1-212-203-4357 Ph
> +61-2-9016-5642 (Sydney in-dial).
>
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:community-
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Robin Paulson
> > Sent: Monday, 5 November 2007 2:37 PM
> > To: List for OpenMoko community discussion
> > Subject: google open phone platform
> >
> > the digg and /. readers here have probably seen it already:
> >
> >
> http://www.engadget.com/2007/11/05/live-coverage-of-googles-android-gpho
> ne-
> > mobile-os-announcement
> >
> > looks like google are announcing an open-source linux based phone OS,
> > supported by a lot of big names in the hardware industry - htc,
> > qualcomm, motorola. no nokia though and no specifics on things like
> > open drivers/hardware specs
> >
> > is this about to swamp the sterling work of FIC and openmoko?
> >
> > ___
> > OpenMoko community mailing list
> > community@lists.openmoko.org
> > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
>
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Re: google open phone platform

[Shawn Rutledge]

On 11/5/07, Dean Collins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> It was FIC's window 6-8 months ago but now when the industry stalwarts
> are crashing at your door it's time to close up shop, sit on the beach
> and think of the next coolest thing.

I would not be advising FIC to give up yet.  A big consortium,
especially one including the likes of Motorola, isn't likely to be
moving that fast.  There's plenty of time for some cross-pollination.
After whatever they have now has been fully revealed, I doubt we will
see much change for a couple years.  Their new ideas can inspire some
of our future ones, too.  The trouble is they work hard in secret for
a couple years and then make a big splash, whereas in the free
software world we make incremental small improvements more slowly (and
take some steps backwards sometimes too).  The sneaking around is the
annoying part - it's all about helping their bottom line and market
perception rather than being "about" freedom.  If this plan were known
before, it could have had some positive effects on this project.

I'm guessing they just made some improvements to Java to improve the
performance to the point that it could actually be practical.  No
reason the new improved VM couldn't run on FIC phones.  And it helps
that Sun's versions of Java are more fully open-source now.

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Re: google open phone platform

[Jeffrey Thomas]

>Why did you pick the Apache v2 open source license?
Correct, its a developer-friendly licenses, as they put it.  I prefer the GPL 
because its a USER-friendly license.

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Re: google open phone platform

[Justyn Butler]

The base platform from OHA will be being kept open, under
Apache2, which means we will be able to make our open source
apps run on phones running that platform easily. This increases
the chance that our apps will be adopted by big companies on
their phones.

So this is good news for open source mobile software!

Also please remember that Apache 2 is "compatible" with GPLv3 (not
v2). See here for the Free Software Foundation statement about
Apache2:
http://www.fsf.org/licensing/licenses/#apache2

And here for the FSF definition of "software compatibility".
http://www.fsf.org/licensing/licenses/compat.html

The compatibility is only one-way. So we can use bits of the Open
Handset Alliance code, which is Apache2, in our GPLv3 software. But
they can't use ours in there code.

Justyn

On 05/11/2007, Shawn Rutledge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 11/5/07, Dean Collins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > It was FIC's window 6-8 months ago but now when the industry stalwarts
> > are crashing at your door it's time to close up shop, sit on the beach
> > and think of the next coolest thing.
>
> I would not be advising FIC to give up yet.  A big consortium,
> especially one including the likes of Motorola, isn't likely to be
> moving that fast.  There's plenty of time for some cross-pollination.
> After whatever they have now has been fully revealed, I doubt we will
> see much change for a couple years.  Their new ideas can inspire some
> of our future ones, too.  The trouble is they work hard in secret for
> a couple years and then make a big splash, whereas in the free
> software world we make incremental small improvements more slowly (and
> take some steps backwards sometimes too).  The sneaking around is the
> annoying part - it's all about helping their bottom line and market
> perception rather than being "about" freedom.  If this plan were known
> before, it could have had some positive effects on this project.
>
> I'm guessing they just made some improvements to Java to improve the
> performance to the point that it could actually be practical.  No
> reason the new improved VM couldn't run on FIC phones.  And it helps
> that Sun's versions of Java are more fully open-source now.
>
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"Rumors of OpenMoko's demise are greatly exaggerated"

[Ian Darwin]

It was FIC's window 6-8 months ago but now when the industry stalwarts
are crashing at your door it's time to close up shop, sit on the beach
and think of the next coolest thing.


This project has shown remarkable resilience in the past; people said 
the same thing when QTopia was GPL'd.  Harald Welte then said the same 
thing that (for example) OpenBSD leader de Raadt often says: "Choice is 
good". OpenBSD is not a Fortune-50 household word but it's a damn sight 
better than some of its competition. So is OpenMoko.


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Re: "Rumors of OpenMoko's demise are greatly exaggerated"

[Edwin Lock]

Exactly, and as far as I can see Openmoko has come a long way. And the
hardware is important too, I really like the GTA02 and am looking forward to
buying it. Once Openmoko is a stable and powerful OS I will be able to do so
much with it. Much better than an OSS-android and CSS software by the
manufacturers of the specific phones. Also I wouldn't be looking forward to
googles ads on a mobile.. Just imagine getting ad-sms based on your regular
personal content!
So, I think there are enough reasons why Openmoko is better, and FIC would
be very thoughtless to let it die..
But I would be very interested by an (un)official statement by one of the
openmoko guys about android!
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Re: Google's "Android" open phone stack announced

[enaut]

Mark Arvidson schrieb:
> http://www.news.com/Google-unveils-cell-phone-software-and-alliance/2100-1039_3-6217001.html
>
> Did they not see Openmoko.org ? It looks like the
> Google name carries weight and can roll over juggernaut style like MS.
>
> What does this mean in the long run for OpenMoko, and how will these
> two project parallelize?
>
> --sagacis
Imagin all the free drivers that are released by that "open aliance".
Anyway a bad thing that could happen is, that FIC is not interested in
"competition" and therefore cancels the development... but that would be
highly unlikely.

mfg enaut

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Re: google open phone platform

[AVee]

On Monday 05 November 2007 21:05, Dean Collins wrote:
> Yep pretty much.
>
> There is a time and a window for technology releases like this and FIC's
> time has come and gone. I hate to put it bluntly but;
>
> It's not hard to think about things like an opensource mobile OS's.
>
> It's not even that hard to convince someone to invest in it.
>
> It is hard to get out Beta and then retail 1.0 but the really hard part
> is being able to invest time and time again in new ideas to be on the
> breaking edge of technology and innovation.
>
> It was FIC's window 6-8 months ago but now when the industry stalwarts
> are crashing at your door it's time to close up shop, sit on the beach
> and think of the next coolest thing.

It's not gone yet. However it is not uncommon for big companies to try and 
make a lot off fuss about a non yet existing product, just to create enough 
anticipation to keep people from moving elswhere. As Microsoft when WinFS 
will be finished, it was supposed to be in XP, it's still not there in Vista. 
But all the time it was a reason not to switch to an OS with a better 
filesystem, because WinFS was going to deliver that 'Really Soon Now(TM)'. 
The same thing is happening here, they said "handsets will be available in 
the second half of 2008." That's another 6 months at the very least. 
Normally 'the second half of the year' means, we really hope to get it done 
this year, but we might not be able to make it. 
The reason they announce so early is simply to create enough buzz so people 
will postpone buying a new phone until they are done. If FIC manages to 
deliver before the first google phone they are still in the game. 

And if the software Google is planning really is as open as they claim it is 
the Neo might even become the first phone that will run this stuff. They 
said, "minimum reqs is about a 200MHz ARM9" so that shouldn't be the problem. 
If that works out Google may just have jumpstarted the launch of the Neo, 
time will tell.

AVee

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RE: google open phone platform

[thomas.cooksey]

>http://www.engadget.com/2007/11/05/live-coverage-of-googles-android-gphone-mobile-os-announcement

>looks like google are announcing an open-source linux based phone OS,
>supported by a lot of big names in the hardware industry 

Look at the smaller names tho. One court my eye, I remember stumbling across 
them about 6-months ago when I was researching GUI stacks - TAT (The 
Astonishing Tribe): www.tat.se

You can be sure the stack they'll be releasing will be based on TAT's Kastor. 
Look at the quality of the interface, it's truly amazing. All the apps are 
written in XML - sounds very google-friendly to me. I guess it must use 
JavaScript or similar to tie all the elements together. The graphics engine 
supports OpenGL ES 2 hardware acceleration too, so those screen casts are going 
to be what you'll get on the device. 

I'm just surprised the likes of Imagination Technologies & Arm aren't members. 
It also seems odd that Arm announced their own Linux stack only last month - I 
wonder if they just weren't invited.


I do hope they really mean that the whole stack will be open source - I can't 
imagine E.g. Nvidia releasing open source drivers for the GoForce.


Cheers,

Tom

PS: What are the chances that the first demo phones we see turn out to be Neos?

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Re: Google's "Android" open phone stack announced

[Randall Mason]

I think it's cool that this technology will be available.  It will provide a
safe haven for developers.  People can run both something powerful and
customizable and have a featureless stable platform.  I hope it works well
with OKL4 virtualization.  That way we may get some of both worlds.

I don't know if we should expect drivers.  That's the whole apache2
license.  People can develop their own proprietary parts and not have to
release it.

On 11/5/07, enaut <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Mark Arvidson schrieb:
> >
> http://www.news.com/Google-unveils-cell-phone-software-and-alliance/2100-1039_3-6217001.html
> >
> > Did they not see Openmoko.org ? It looks like the
> > Google name carries weight and can roll over juggernaut style like MS.
> >
> > What does this mean in the long run for OpenMoko, and how will these
> > two project parallelize?
> >
> > --sagacis
> Imagin all the free drivers that are released by that "open aliance".
> Anyway a bad thing that could happen is, that FIC is not interested in
> "competition" and therefore cancels the development... but that would be
> highly unlikely.
>
> mfg enaut
>
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-- 
Randall Mason
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Community update: The 850 MHz issue

[Michael Shiloh]

Hello Community,

I've just arrived in Taiwan and have figured out the quad band issue.

The chipset is capable of quad band but the board was laid out to only 
support 3 bands. So, 850Mhz is not supported on the GTA01 board. Instead 
we support 900/1800/1900MHz.


Anyone interested in more details is welcome to email me.

Michael

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Re: google open phone platform

[GWMobile]

Also people always want choices.
Having goolge out there would draw attention to this concept and have 
4000 times as many people looking for a device.

Some of those will choose neo.

On Mon, 5 Nov 2007 3:48 pm, AVee wrote:

On Monday 05 November 2007 21:05, Dean Collins wrote:

 Yep pretty much.

 There is a time and a window for technology releases like this and 
FIC's

 time has come and gone. I hate to put it bluntly but;

 It's not hard to think about things like an opensource mobile OS's.

 It's not even that hard to convince someone to invest in it.

 It is hard to get out Beta and then retail 1.0 but the really hard 
part

 is being able to invest time and time again in new ideas to be on the
 breaking edge of technology and innovation.

 It was FIC's window 6-8 months ago but now when the industry stalwarts
 are crashing at your door it's time to close up shop, sit on the beach
 and think of the next coolest thing.


It's not gone yet. However it is not uncommon for big companies to try 
and
make a lot off fuss about a non yet existing product, just to create 
enough
anticipation to keep people from moving elswhere. As Microsoft when 
WinFS
will be finished, it was supposed to be in XP, it's still not there in 
Vista.

But all the time it was a reason not to switch to an OS with a better
filesystem, because WinFS was going to deliver that 'Really Soon 
Now(TM)'.
The same thing is happening here, they said "handsets will be available 
in

the second half of 2008." That's another 6 months at the very least.
Normally 'the second half of the year' means, we really hope to get it 
done

this year, but we might not be able to make it.
The reason they announce so early is simply to create enough buzz so 
people

will postpone buying a new phone until they are done. If FIC manages to
deliver before the first google phone they are still in the game.

And if the software Google is planning really is as open as they claim 
it is
the Neo might even become the first phone that will run this stuff. 
They
said, "minimum reqs is about a 200MHz ARM9" so that shouldn't be the 
problem.
If that works out Google may just have jumpstarted the launch of the 
Neo,

time will tell.

AVee

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Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue

[Randall Mason]

Will the GTA02 have the quad band board (full working quad band capabilities
to end users)?

On 11/5/07, Michael Shiloh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Hello Community,
>
> I've just arrived in Taiwan and have figured out the quad band issue.
>
> The chipset is capable of quad band but the board was laid out to only
> support 3 bands. So, 850Mhz is not supported on the GTA01 board. Instead
> we support 900/1800/1900MHz.
>
> Anyone interested in more details is welcome to email me.
>
> Michael
>
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Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue

[Michael Shiloh]

Unfortunately, this also affects the GTA02, which is now far too close 
to production to try to enable quad-band operation.


An 850/1800/1900MHz variant has been suggested but this is not yet 
determined.


Michael


Randall Mason wrote:
Will the GTA02 have the quad band board (full working quad band 
capabilities to end users)?


On 11/5/07, *Michael Shiloh* < [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> wrote:


Hello Community,

I've just arrived in Taiwan and have figured out the quad band issue.

The chipset is capable of quad band but the board was laid out to only
support 3 bands. So, 850Mhz is not supported on the GTA01 board. Instead
we support 900/1800/1900MHz.

Anyone interested in more details is welcome to email me.

Michael

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Re:Community update: The 850 MHz issue

[Joe Pfeiffer]

Michael Shiloh writes:
>
>The chipset is capable of quad band but the board was laid out to only 
>support 3 bands. So, 850Mhz is not supported on the GTA01 board. Instead 
>we support 900/1800/1900MHz.

How does the board layout affect the supported bands?  Is it a jumper
or something?

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Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue

[Steve]

Thanks for letting us know so quickly.  This definitely gives me
something to think about purchase wise.  Please keep us informed as to
any future plans for alternate tri-band or quad-band hardware.

-Steve

Michael Shiloh wrote:
> Unfortunately, this also affects the GTA02, which is now far too close
> to production to try to enable quad-band operation.
> 
> An 850/1800/1900MHz variant has been suggested but this is not yet
> determined.
> 
> Michael
> 
> 
> Randall Mason wrote:
>> Will the GTA02 have the quad band board (full working quad band
>> capabilities to end users)?
>>
>> On 11/5/07, *Michael Shiloh* < [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> > wrote:
>>
>> Hello Community,
>>
>> I've just arrived in Taiwan and have figured out the quad band issue.
>>
>> The chipset is capable of quad band but the board was laid out to
>> only
>> support 3 bands. So, 850Mhz is not supported on the GTA01 board.
>> Instead
>> we support 900/1800/1900MHz.
>>
>> Anyone interested in more details is welcome to email me.
>>
>> Michael
>>

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Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue

[Michael Shiloh]

Joe Pfeiffer wrote:

Michael Shiloh writes:
The chipset is capable of quad band but the board was laid out to only 
support 3 bands. So, 850Mhz is not supported on the GTA01 board. Instead 
we support 900/1800/1900MHz.


How does the board layout affect the supported bands?  Is it a jumper
or something?


Would that it were a jumper. Unfortunately it's much more complicated: 
it's a combination of circuit, components, firmware, and certification.


Michael

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Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue

[Tupshin Harper]

FWIW, I was planning on buying a GTA02 as soon as its available, but no 
850 is a deal breaker since I would be using it on AT&T's network in 
California. I would certainly be willing to buy it without 900MHZ 
support, though.


-Tupshin

Michael Shiloh wrote:
Unfortunately, this also affects the GTA02, which is now far too close 
to production to try to enable quad-band operation.


An 850/1800/1900MHz variant has been suggested but this is not yet 
determined.


Michael


Randall Mason wrote:
Will the GTA02 have the quad band board (full working quad band 
capabilities to end users)?


On 11/5/07, *Michael Shiloh* < [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> wrote:


Hello Community,

I've just arrived in Taiwan and have figured out the quad band 
issue.


The chipset is capable of quad band but the board was laid out to 
only
support 3 bands. So, 850Mhz is not supported on the GTA01 board. 
Instead

we support 900/1800/1900MHz.

Anyone interested in more details is welcome to email me.

Michael

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Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue

[Michael Shiloh]

Will do.

Michael

Steve wrote:

Thanks for letting us know so quickly.  This definitely gives me
something to think about purchase wise.  Please keep us informed as to
any future plans for alternate tri-band or quad-band hardware.

-Steve

Michael Shiloh wrote:

Unfortunately, this also affects the GTA02, which is now far too close
to production to try to enable quad-band operation.

An 850/1800/1900MHz variant has been suggested but this is not yet
determined.

Michael


Randall Mason wrote:

Will the GTA02 have the quad band board (full working quad band
capabilities to end users)?

On 11/5/07, *Michael Shiloh* < [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:

Hello Community,

I've just arrived in Taiwan and have figured out the quad band issue.

The chipset is capable of quad band but the board was laid out to
only
support 3 bands. So, 850Mhz is not supported on the GTA01 board.
Instead
we support 900/1800/1900MHz.

Anyone interested in more details is welcome to email me.

Michael



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Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue

[Jon]

On Nov 5, 2007 5:58 PM, Michael Shiloh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>
> Would that it were a jumper. Unfortunately it's much more complicated:
> it's a combination of circuit, components, firmware, and certification.
>
> Michael
>
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I think then the question is (for us slightly less technically adept):  How
do we find out what support we have in our area?

I know there have been alot of people complaining that they only have 850 in
their respective area, and a phone without 850 coverage is of no use to
them.  I don't want to be a nay-sayer, but it makes me worry.  I don't know
what band coverage I have.  Personally I have an AT&T RAZR, which the option
to select the network between "Automatic", "850/1900" and "900/1800".  Just
now I set it to 900/1800 to test, and I no longer have service.  Obviously,
I don't want to spent several hundred dollars on a phone that doesn't work
where I live, or _might_ work on the other band in the area.  Additionally,
how does this bode for traveling?  If 850mhz is widely used for AT&T - then
I would be in trouble.

Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of the OpenMoko and really really really
want to get one of the GTA02's (I'm sure many others will agree).  But I'm
worried, and I'm sure I'm not alone.

-Jon.
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Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue

[Joshua Layne]

I hate to add to the fire on this one, but no 850 is a definite deal 
breaker.
No quad-band is a serious limitation, as it has been marketed since 
inception as a quad-band phone.  I'm not sure that I am willing to spend 
$450 for a non-world phone.


Regards,
joshua
Tupshin Harper wrote:
FWIW, I was planning on buying a GTA02 as soon as its available, but 
no 850 is a deal breaker since I would be using it on AT&T's network 
in California. I would certainly be willing to buy it without 900MHZ 
support, though.


-Tupshin

Michael Shiloh wrote:
Unfortunately, this also affects the GTA02, which is now far too 
close to production to try to enable quad-band operation.


An 850/1800/1900MHz variant has been suggested but this is not yet 
determined.


Michael


Randall Mason wrote:
Will the GTA02 have the quad band board (full working quad band 
capabilities to end users)?


On 11/5/07, *Michael Shiloh* < [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> wrote:


Hello Community,

I've just arrived in Taiwan and have figured out the quad band 
issue.


The chipset is capable of quad band but the board was laid out 
to only
support 3 bands. So, 850Mhz is not supported on the GTA01 board. 
Instead

we support 900/1800/1900MHz.

Anyone interested in more details is welcome to email me.

Michael

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Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue

[Joe Pfeiffer]

Michael Shiloh writes:
>> 
>> How does the board layout affect the supported bands?  Is it a jumper
>> or something?
>
>Would that it were a jumper. Unfortunately it's much more complicated: 
>it's a combination of circuit, components, firmware, and certification.

Drat -- when firmware gets into it, it becomes problematic...

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Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue

[Justin Wong]

Quick (sorta stupid) question.  I'm in Vancouver, Canada.  What does not
having 850 support mean?

Thanks,
Justin


On Nov 5, 2007 6:08 PM, Tupshin Harper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> FWIW, I was planning on buying a GTA02 as soon as its available, but no
> 850 is a deal breaker since I would be using it on AT&T's network in
> California. I would certainly be willing to buy it without 900MHZ
> support, though.
>
> -Tupshin
>
> Michael Shiloh wrote:
> > Unfortunately, this also affects the GTA02, which is now far too close
> > to production to try to enable quad-band operation.
> >
> > An 850/1800/1900MHz variant has been suggested but this is not yet
> > determined.
> >
> > Michael
> >
> >
> > Randall Mason wrote:
> >> Will the GTA02 have the quad band board (full working quad band
> >> capabilities to end users)?
> >>
> >> On 11/5/07, *Michael Shiloh* < [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> > wrote:
> >>
> >> Hello Community,
> >>
> >> I've just arrived in Taiwan and have figured out the quad band
> >> issue.
> >>
> >> The chipset is capable of quad band but the board was laid out to
> >> only
> >> support 3 bands. So, 850Mhz is not supported on the GTA01 board.
> >> Instead
> >> we support 900/1800/1900MHz.
> >>
> >> Anyone interested in more details is welcome to email me.
> >>
> >> Michael
> >>
> >> ___
> >> OpenMoko community mailing list
> >> community@lists.openmoko.org 
> >> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Randall Mason
> >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> >>
> >>
> >>
> 
> >>
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> >
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Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue

[Michael Shiloh]

That's a good point, Tupshin. You (and the community) can guide us as we 
try to figure out how to proceed.


How many of you must have 850 MHz support, and would be satisfied with 
an 850/1800/1900MHz variant, and how many of you  must have full quad-band?


Please put your answers on

http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:November_6%2C_2007_Community_Update

Michael


Tupshin Harper wrote:
FWIW, I was planning on buying a GTA02 as soon as its available, but no 
850 is a deal breaker since I would be using it on AT&T's network in 
California. I would certainly be willing to buy it without 900MHZ 
support, though.


-Tupshin

Michael Shiloh wrote:
Unfortunately, this also affects the GTA02, which is now far too close 
to production to try to enable quad-band operation.


An 850/1800/1900MHz variant has been suggested but this is not yet 
determined.


Michael


Randall Mason wrote:
Will the GTA02 have the quad band board (full working quad band 
capabilities to end users)?


On 11/5/07, *Michael Shiloh* < [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> wrote:


Hello Community,

I've just arrived in Taiwan and have figured out the quad band 
issue.


The chipset is capable of quad band but the board was laid out to 
only
support 3 bands. So, 850Mhz is not supported on the GTA01 board. 
Instead

we support 900/1800/1900MHz.

Anyone interested in more details is welcome to email me.

Michael

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Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue

[digger vermont]

That's to bad.  Like many people I've been looking forward to getting a
Neo and using OM. Now I'm not sure if I will.  I do a fair amount of
camping and canoeing, at times in rural areas.  I wonder how often the
lack of the 850 band would cause problems?  I looked around some and
couldn't find any good info on where 850 is used.

Seems like this could affect a lot of people's decision to get the
GTA02.

digger

On Tue, 2007-11-06 at 09:35 +0800, Michael Shiloh wrote:
> Unfortunately, this also affects the GTA02, which is now far too close 
> to production to try to enable quad-band operation.
> 
> An 850/1800/1900MHz variant has been suggested but this is not yet 
> determined.
> 
> Michael



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Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue

[Jon]

On Nov 5, 2007 6:23 PM, Michael Shiloh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> That's a good point, Tupshin. You (and the community) can guide us as we
> try to figure out how to proceed.
>
> How many of you must have 850 MHz support, and would be satisfied with
> an 850/1800/1900MHz variant, and how many of you  must have full
> quad-band?
>
> Please put your answers on
>
> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:November_6%2C_2007_Community_Update
>
> Michael
>
>
I've already put myself down on the list for the 850 tri-mode.  That'll work
"good nuff" for me.  But I also did some digging around on GSM  World to
hopefully answer my questions and others.  If you take a quick look at
http://www.gsmworld.com/roaming/gsminfo/cou_us.shtml which is the US list
for GSM based operators, you will see it is universally 850 or 1900 (or
both).  In the case of AT&T you can take a quick look at the two coverage
maps:  850:  http://www.gsmworld.com/cgi-bin/ni_map.pl?cc=us&net=b2  and
1900:  http://www.gsmworld.com/cgi-bin/ni_map.pl?cc=us&net=be

>From what I can see in the maps for AT&T is that 850mhz isn't as well rolled
out, but where it is, has better coverage.  1900mhz is better deployed, but
seems to be spotty when it comes to the fringes.  But the short version is
that without 850 access on the moko, I personally would be unable to use
half the towers around here.  I'm going to go as far as saying that 850 is
critical for U.S. GSM.

I'd suggest everyone find their country on GSM World:
http://www.gsmworld.com/roaming/gsminfo/index.shtml and check their
providers.  Unfortunately some of the maps don't differentiate between 850
and 1900 (for example Rogers Wireless in Canada).  The other two Canadian
carriers listed, and the Mexican seem to be 1900 only.  So it looks like the
US just wants to be different, as usual.

-Jon
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Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue

[Michael Shiloh]

I agree.

We realize that this is a very grave issue and are treating it with the 
utmost concern.


Michael


digger vermont wrote:

That's to bad.  Like many people I've been looking forward to getting a
Neo and using OM. Now I'm not sure if I will.  I do a fair amount of
camping and canoeing, at times in rural areas.  I wonder how often the
lack of the 850 band would cause problems?  I looked around some and
couldn't find any good info on where 850 is used.

Seems like this could affect a lot of people's decision to get the
GTA02.

digger

On Tue, 2007-11-06 at 09:35 +0800, Michael Shiloh wrote:
Unfortunately, this also affects the GTA02, which is now far too close 
to production to try to enable quad-band operation.


An 850/1800/1900MHz variant has been suggested but this is not yet 
determined.


Michael




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Re: google open phone platform

[Doug Sutherland]

Well so far it's a bunch of hot air.
Let's see what this SDK looks like.
Supposedly an "early look" within one week.
I'm a bit skeptical on the whole thing for now.

  -- Doug

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Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue

[Mathew Davis]

Is there a way to do both?  Can you have the 900/1800/1900MHz phones
along with the 850/1800/1900MHz variant?  I don't know if that would
raise cost or anything.  That way at order time you could select which
one you would like.  Who uses the 900 band does anyone know?  I would
think the 850/1800/1900MHz variant would work for anyone in USA as it
covers T-Mobile, and both bands of AT&T right?

On Nov 5, 2007 5:48 PM, Michael Shiloh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello Community,
>
> I've just arrived in Taiwan and have figured out the quad band issue.
>
> The chipset is capable of quad band but the board was laid out to only
> support 3 bands. So, 850Mhz is not supported on the GTA01 board. Instead
> we support 900/1800/1900MHz.
>
> Anyone interested in more details is welcome to email me.
>
> Michael
>
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Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue

[Randall Mason]

Generally, my rule of thumb is that rural places have more 850MHz, urban
places have the 1900MHz.  The only place I would usually see 850MHz was on
road trips, but now that I live on the North Shore, there is only about 50%
coverage for 1900MHz (and it's always like 1 bar).

Randall (ClashTheBunny)

On 11/5/07, Michael Shiloh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I agree.
>
> We realize that this is a very grave issue and are treating it with the
> utmost concern.
>
> Michael
>
>
> digger vermont wrote:
> > That's to bad.  Like many people I've been looking forward to getting a
> > Neo and using OM. Now I'm not sure if I will.  I do a fair amount of
> > camping and canoeing, at times in rural areas.  I wonder how often the
> > lack of the 850 band would cause problems?  I looked around some and
> > couldn't find any good info on where 850 is used.
> >
> > Seems like this could affect a lot of people's decision to get the
> > GTA02.
> >
> > digger
> >
> > On Tue, 2007-11-06 at 09:35 +0800, Michael Shiloh wrote:
> >> Unfortunately, this also affects the GTA02, which is now far too close
> >> to production to try to enable quad-band operation.
> >>
> >> An 850/1800/1900MHz variant has been suggested but this is not yet
> >> determined.
> >>
> >> Michael
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
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Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue

[Doug Sutherland]

The big deal about 850Mhz vs 1900Mhz is that 850Mhz specification
is higher power. Higher power means different, and probably more 
stringent, testing and certification requirements. Presumably that is why
it's more than just a software/firmware issue requiring board design
and component changes. Sigh.

  -- Doug

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Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue

[Michael Shiloh]

I would guess that if we make such a variant, we would offer both, but I 
don't know for sure.


Please realize that I'm just asking the question in anticipation that 
the information might be useful at some point. I'm not suggesting that 
we have any plans yet to do so.


Michael

Mathew Davis wrote:

Is there a way to do both?  Can you have the 900/1800/1900MHz phones
along with the 850/1800/1900MHz variant?  I don't know if that would
raise cost or anything.  That way at order time you could select which
one you would like.  Who uses the 900 band does anyone know?  I would
think the 850/1800/1900MHz variant would work for anyone in USA as it
covers T-Mobile, and both bands of AT&T right?

On Nov 5, 2007 5:48 PM, Michael Shiloh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Hello Community,

I've just arrived in Taiwan and have figured out the quad band issue.

The chipset is capable of quad band but the board was laid out to only
support 3 bands. So, 850Mhz is not supported on the GTA01 board. Instead
we support 900/1800/1900MHz.

Anyone interested in more details is welcome to email me.

Michael

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Re: google open phone platform

[Doug Sutherland]

Google the search engine company announces vapourware
and that means FIC's time is come and gone? That doesn't
make much sense. Did you see what the "partners" are 
saying? They say "we are happy to be a part of this". 

This is the equivant of for example HP saying "we are 
announcing that we will be working closely with XYZ".
Nothing has been agreed on, except we will be working
on it. 

Ever seen how "consortiums" operate and how long it 
takes companies to agree on things. There is also two 
levels of agreement here. First the participants is this 
"open platform" (btw let's see what that really means)
need to agree. Then they need agreement of the 
wireless providers, who most likely will not be as 
peppy on saying "we're happy to be part of this".

Such knee jerk reaction from one announcement, 
makes no sense in "technology announcements".
Tech companies often announce things before they
even have a conceptual idea of what it will be.
It's the "spaghetti on the wall" methodology. 
Throw spaghetti on the wall and see what sticks. 
And google, per said company's roots, will surely
have an agenda beyond an "open platform".
Adware based on voice recognition? 
I will never buy a google anything, thanks.

  -- Doug

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Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue

[Doug Sutherland]

Mathew Davis:
> Who uses the 900 band does anyone know?

Nobody in North America uses 900 or 1800.

Originally all GSM phones were 900Mhz. The GSM specs were 
created in Europe. Due to congestion on the 900Mhz band most
providers added support for 1800Mhz. 

North America was late in the GSM game due to old networks
and therefore much prior investment. However, it is basically 
unheard of now to buy a GSM phone in North America that 
does not support 850/1900, the two North American bands.
These two are must have for North American customers in 
general. Quad band should be the goal.

Good GSM coverage info here
http://www.gsmworld.com/roaming/gsminfo/index.shtml

  -- Doug

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Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue

[ian douglas]

Agreed, I'm in California as well, and though I bought a pre-paid T 
Mobile card, it doesn't work either because of the 3G issue.


It would seem the 850 issue plus the 3G issue has just 'bricked' my Neo 
(in a metaphorical sense) without me writing a single line of code.


And given that the GTA02 will have the same 850 issue, plus that we 
haven't heard any new news on the 3G firmware upgrade for quite a while, 
my dream of developing for the Neo is starting to fade away. (Michael 
informed us back on Oct 13th that they were just working out the 
'distribution terms' for giving us a firmware patch -- what's the status?)


I don't want to start another thread like the other guy did a few months 
back bout "convince me to keep my Neo" but now I've got two major 
strikes against me using this phone. What's next?


-id


Tupshin Harper wrote:
FWIW, I was planning on buying a GTA02 as soon as its available, but no 
850 is a deal breaker since I would be using it on AT&T's network in 
California. I would certainly be willing to buy it without 900MHZ 
support, though.



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"Google's Android has long road ahead"

[Ian Darwin]

http://news.zdnet.com/2100-9588_22-6217131.html

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Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue

[Shawn Rutledge]

On Nov 5, 2007 7:36 PM, Jon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> http://www.gsmworld.com/roaming/gsminfo/cou_us.shtml which is the US list
> for GSM based operators, you will see it is universally 850 or 1900 (or
> both).  In the case of AT&T you can take a quick look at the two coverage

I guess I'm in luck - TMobile only has 1900 anyway according to that.
It just means no roaming in some cases when I otherwise could have, I
guess.

Well hey it's a developer phone, but when it goes to mass market it's
hard to imagine shipping without 850, if that's going to leave all the
rural areas uncovered.

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Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue

[Michael Shiloh]

I hear you.

Now that the 850MHz update is posted, I'll turn my attention to the 3G 
issue (GSM firmware update) and the GPS driver.


I've only just starting to look into these (since I arrived in Taiwan) 
and I'll report in a new thread once I get a bit more information.


Michael

ian douglas wrote:
Agreed, I'm in California as well, and though I bought a pre-paid T 
Mobile card, it doesn't work either because of the 3G issue.


It would seem the 850 issue plus the 3G issue has just 'bricked' my Neo 
(in a metaphorical sense) without me writing a single line of code.


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Re: google open phone platform

[Ofek Doron [Ofek BIZ]]

Hi,


You are basically right.

But, I can not agree with you, because:


1. the time frame for the technology start when you have a competition. 
which mean that the end of 2007 and the first quarter of 2008 is the 
time to do something (don't forget the google will not sell the phone 
and the partners need some time). it is a marketing issue and not 
technical issue.



2. "time to market" is very important in our world, and as I said, I 
think that OpenMoko have the time frame for the next 4-5 months.  but 
someone have to do something.



I not sure, but if the opensource community is good enough to help the 
development process, maybe it's good enough to help deliver the solution 
- something like community based marketing plan. the oss community have 
"ambassadors" all over the world and it's a good point against google  
dominance.





- Ofek Doron






Dean Collins wrote:


Yep pretty much.

There is a time and a window for technology releases like this and FIC's
time has come and gone. I hate to put it bluntly but; 


It's not hard to think about things like an opensource mobile OS's.

It's not even that hard to convince someone to invest in it.

It is hard to get out Beta and then retail 1.0 but the really hard part
is being able to invest time and time again in new ideas to be on the
breaking edge of technology and innovation.

It was FIC's window 6-8 months ago but now when the industry stalwarts
are crashing at your door it's time to close up shop, sit on the beach
and think of the next coolest thing.

Next time maybe"speed to market' can be part of your business plan.


Regards,

Dean Collins
Cognation Pty Ltd
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
+1-212-203-4357 Ph
+61-2-9016-5642 (Sydney in-dial).


  

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:community-
[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Robin Paulson
Sent: Monday, 5 November 2007 2:37 PM
To: List for OpenMoko community discussion
Subject: google open phone platform

the digg and /. readers here have probably seen it already:




http://www.engadget.com/2007/11/05/live-coverage-of-googles-android-gpho
ne-
  

mobile-os-announcement

looks like google are announcing an open-source linux based phone OS,
supported by a lot of big names in the hardware industry - htc,
qualcomm, motorola. no nokia though and no specifics on things like
open drivers/hardware specs

is this about to swamp the sterling work of FIC and openmoko?

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Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue

[Mike Hodson]

On 11/5/07, Jon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I think then the question is (for us slightly less technically adept):  How
> do we find out what support we have in our area?

I have previously worked for a reseller of Cingular/ATT(used to work
at radioshack for 4 years. joy!) and the stores login to their mapping
system hasnt changed, I am able to provide as detailed of a map
regarding 850 vs 1900 coverage as anyone could want.

General rule of thumb: if your market had BOTH cingular AND at&t, you
probably have at least one segment of the local network as 850. This
can cause degraded performance if it works at all.  If it only had 1
or the other, its a tossup and I can look it up.  Mind you, 850 vs
1900 even in the same cities do not cover the same.

Also im willing to field questions regarding cell networks in general
if anyone needs clarifications.

Mike

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Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue

[Mike Hodson]

On 11/6/07, Mike Hodson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 11/5/07, Jon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I think then the question is (for us slightly less technically adept):  How
> > do we find out what support we have in our area?
>
> I have previously worked for a reseller of Cingular/ATT(used to work

Also, if you are wanting to use it with TMobile, the 1900 should work,
as soon as the firmware 3g sim issue can be fixed.

Mike

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