Re: gta02-core (was Re: OM future)
Em 25-02-2010 01:39, Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) escreveu: boys with the big pots of money are surprisingly close there. rome wasn't built in one day. fight the battles you can win - dont fight the impossible ones. sure - it's not as glorious. it's not as sexy. but it gets you one small step closer to where you'd like to be. you may never get it. that's the nature of compromises. but you can get some of it at least. Oh come on, don't beat them with a stick, if you don't have people working on this now, then when the time comes there will be pretty much nothing to show and all the time of development will have to start *then* instead of now :) The beauty of these communities thing is that one resource spent in developping gta02-core is not one resource not spent in SHR because (and I might be wrong here because I'm not into gta02-core) most likely gta02-core people don't feel as excited writing software for a smartphone environment (PIM, call support, other apps, etc...). As such, gta02-core people are not diminishing SHR people, but complementing. Hugs, Rui ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: MC Navi released
On Thu, 11 Feb 2010 10:47:55 -0800 (PST) Mike Crash m...@mikecrash.com (MC) wrote: After preview about month ago here is finally first public version of MC Navi. Keep in mind it is still in hard development and this day I found some bugs, which are not yet fixed in this release (I didn't want to stop the release, because it is never-ending story). Sounds cools, thank you! But Mike, kde je ceska mapa? :)) Cheers -- Petr ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: gta02-core (was Re: OM future)
On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 08:41:42 + Rui Miguel Silva Seabra r...@1407.org said: Em 25-02-2010 01:39, Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) escreveu: boys with the big pots of money are surprisingly close there. rome wasn't built in one day. fight the battles you can win - dont fight the impossible ones. sure - it's not as glorious. it's not as sexy. but it gets you one small step closer to where you'd like to be. you may never get it. that's the nature of compromises. but you can get some of it at least. Oh come on, don't beat them with a stick, if you don't have people working on this now, then when the time comes there will be pretty much nothing to show and all the time of development will have to start *then* instead of now :) The beauty of these communities thing is that one resource spent in developping gta02-core is not one resource not spent in SHR because (and I might be wrong here because I'm not into gta02-core) most likely gta02-core people don't feel as excited writing software for a smartphone environment (PIM, call support, other apps, etc...). As such, gta02-core people are not diminishing SHR people, but complementing. ask werner. he's waiting for the pot of gold to make gta02-core go from files and plans to product. waiting and waiting for it... and he's right - he needs the pot of gold. and while he waits - the design ages, components become rarer ads they age... unlike software - which has pretty much 0 cost of entry, modification and distribution other than time and effort - hardware doesn't. thats a fundamental difference. anyone - if they have source, can modify, improve or whatever some code with the only real cost being time, production, distribution is basically free (via compiling+tarring up+download/internet). hardware is not. every Download is a hefty cost - and that cost is also entirely based on how much stock you prepare for download first (100, 1000, 10,000, 100,000, 1,000,000 etc.) and for the lower numbers sometimes production just wont happen as no one is willing to produce so few. minimum production numbers etc. you could do a fully open phone 1 at a time. it'd cost $1mil+ per phone. got the pot of gold to make your own $1mil+ phone? :) -- - Codito, ergo sum - I code, therefore I am -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: MC Navi released
After preview about month ago here is finally first public version of MC Navi. Keep in mind it is still in hard development and this day I found some bugs, which are not yet fixed in this release (I didn't want to stop the release, because it is never-ending story). Sounds cools, thank you! But Mike, kde je ceska mapa? :)) found it: http://www.gps-routes.info/index.php?name=Downloadsd_op=viewdownloadcid=3 Petr ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: MC Navi released
Zkus to zde: http://www.gps-routes.info/index.php?name=Downloadsd_op=viewdownloadcid=3 I have improved convertor and fixed a lot of bugs, so soon will be new version and also more maps for download. On 25.2.2010 9:52, Petr Vanek [via Openmoko Public Mailinglists] wrote: On Thu, 11 Feb 2010 10:47:55 -0800 (PST) Mike Crash [hidden email] http://n2.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=nodenode=4631280i=0 (MC) wrote: After preview about month ago here is finally first public version of MC Navi. Keep in mind it is still in hard development and this day I found some bugs, which are not yet fixed in this release (I didn't want to stop the release, because it is never-ending story). Sounds cools, thank you! But Mike, kde je ceska mapa? :)) Cheers -- Petr ___ Openmoko community mailing list [hidden email] http://n2.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=nodenode=4631280i=1 http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community View message @ http://n2.nabble.com/MC-Navi-released-tp4556580p4631280.html To unsubscribe from MC Navi released, click here (link removed) ==. -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/MC-Navi-released-tp4556580p4631368.html Sent from the Openmoko Community mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: gta02-core (was Re: OM future)
Community can be another pot of gold. You can preorder the phones, raise funds, etc (see blender, or wikipedia...). That's how the small team behind the openpandora was successful. Yes, the openpandora is not a phone and thus needs less paperwork, administrative authorization and license fees, but on the other hand they build a gadget that was top-notch technology at the time of design (and still far from being outperformed by competition). ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: gta02-core (was Re: OM future)
On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 11:07:54 +0100 ri...@happyleptic.org said: Community can be another pot of gold. You can preorder the phones, raise funds, etc (see blender, or wikipedia...). That's how the small team behind the openpandora was successful. Yes, the openpandora is not a phone and thus needs less paperwork, administrative authorization and license fees, but on the other hand they build a gadget that was top-notch technology at the time of design (and still far from being outperformed by competition). successful? when they took your money 1.5 years ago promised to ship 1.25 years ago.. and still have not? sitting on your money? aweesome. trust me - it's already outperformed by things like the nexus-1 or a slew of other htc stuff - the new snapdragon based soc's and more. by double or more. and it still has yet to ship a single unit. these others have been shipping for ages (1ghz shnapragon windows mobile toshiba phone been going for a while now). openpandora is a wonderful example of a big fat FAIL on this. it's last time my money goes to any such group/venture. -- - Codito, ergo sum - I code, therefore I am -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: gta02-core (was Re: OM future)
What about the Ben NanoNote (http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Main_Page). They showed how the process is done, from the beginning to the end (I don't know about the funding). Although it's not a phone, I do have a working ultra-portable now for a reasonable price :) (It just needs some software-ports, but that is part of the fun). Ghislain http://www.basetrend.nl BaseTrend - http://www.openmobile.nl openmobile.nl -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/gta02-core-was-Re-OM-future-tp4628177p4631684.html Sent from the Openmoko Community mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: gta02-core (was Re: OM future)
-[ Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 09:20:56PM +1100, Carsten Haitzler ] openpandora is a wonderful example of a big fat FAIL on this. it's last time my money goes to any such group/venture. The fact is they proved community does not need to be backed up by an industrial pot of gold to build this kind of hardware. Your personal feelings about the overall outcome is not on topic but as far as I can tell from the gp32x forums many people do not consider the project as a failure. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: gta02-core (was Re: OM future)
On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 11:50:36 +0100 ri...@happyleptic.org said: -[ Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 09:20:56PM +1100, Carsten Haitzler ] openpandora is a wonderful example of a big fat FAIL on this. it's last time my money goes to any such group/venture. The fact is they proved community does not need to be backed up by an industrial pot of gold to build this kind of hardware. Your personal feelings about the overall outcome is not on topic but as far as I can tell from the gp32x forums many people do not consider the project as a failure. they created a pot of gold by lieing to people and getting them to part with their money. they said it would be shipped by a date (2 or 3 months after you paid). it still has not shipped. i dont call that a success. i dont care how much it might be but that was unexpected delays. a few weeks ok - a few months. ok. almost 1.5 years of delay and still not shipped - after asking for money and giving a shipping date almost 1.5 years ago - fail. -- - Codito, ergo sum - I code, therefore I am -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: gta02-core (was Re: OM future)
On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 02:36:22 -0800 (PST) ghislain ghisl...@basetrend.nl said: What about the Ben NanoNote (http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Main_Page). They showed how the process is done, from the beginning to the end (I don't know about the funding). i dont need yet another mini pda. i have a small army of them - that dont replace the phone junk in my pocket. i - and i would say the vast majority of people, dont want multiple things in their pockets - why do u think pda's are dead? they want 1, and the phone trumped all of it for communications reasons. if you dont have a phone you instantly made your potential market a lot smaller. if it doesnt fit in a pocket easily - you just shrunk your market significantly. the more you move your product into a market niche, the more likely it is to fail due to just not making enough volume. open products is already a niche. Although it's not a phone, I do have a working ultra-portable now for a reasonable price :) (It just needs some software-ports, but that is part of the fun). Ghislain http://www.basetrend.nl BaseTrend - http://www.openmobile.nl openmobile.nl -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/gta02-core-was-Re-OM-future-tp4628177p4631684.html Sent from the Openmoko Community mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- - Codito, ergo sum - I code, therefore I am -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: gta02-core (was Re: OM future)
Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman)-2 wrote: On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 02:36:22 -0800 (PST) ghislain ghisl...@basetrend.nl said: What about the Ben NanoNote (http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Main_Page). They showed how the process is done, from the beginning to the end (I don't know about the funding). i dont need yet another mini pda. i have a small army of them - that dont replace the phone junk in my pocket. i - and i would say the vast majority of people, dont want multiple things in their pockets - why do u think pda's are dead? they want 1, and the phone trumped all of it for communications reasons. if you dont have a phone you instantly made your potential market a lot smaller. if it doesnt fit in a pocket easily - you just shrunk your market significantly. the more you move your product into a market niche, the more likely it is to fail due to just not making enough volume. open products is already a niche. It was not an example of what you need, it was an example of how they did it and what we can learn of it. Also, it's not 'yet another mini pda', because of it's openness you can use it the way you want, just use your imagination and your programming skills :) Your statement 'open products is already a niche' is the exact statement I heard 15-years ago about open-software. We are just at the beginning, just give it some time. :) Ghislain http://www.basetrend.nl BaseTrend - http://www.openmobile.nl openmobile.nl -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/gta02-core-was-Re-OM-future-tp4628177p4631828.html Sent from the Openmoko Community mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: gta02-core (was Re: OM future)
Ghislain, They showed how the process is done, from the beginning to the end (I don't know about the funding). even that is open :-) (scroll down to second part) http://en.qi-hardware.com/pipermail/developer/2010-February/001918.html Although it's not a phone, I do have a working ultra-portable now for a reasonable price :) (It just needs some software-ports, but that is part of the fun). Phone is super hard. I finally agree with rasterman on something and share most of what he said earlier in this thread about the economics of getting an 'open' hardware project going. It's tough. And the phone is the toughest of them all. OpenPandora took 4000 pre-orders and financed it that way, hopefully they will make it, they still have a long way to go, product wise and company wise. For the phone, what do you guys think about the osmocom project by Harald and friends? http://bb.osmocom.org From what I understand so far, they will continue to hack their way to make a GPL GSM stack work with Calypso RF/DSP chips, and later maybe MTK chips. The RF chips themselves are way out of reach for any of us (to make our own open version), even way harder than the GPL'ed Milkymist SoC I think we will get eventually [1] [2]. So to build a phone around osmocom, we have to reuse MTK RF/DSP chips? Anybody interested in financing it? :-) raster - do you want to pre-order one osmocom phone for 1M USD as you said? You have OpenPandora experience already, this one could only be better. On steroids! What do you think? Wolfgang [1] http://www.milkymist.org [2] http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Milkymist_One On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 02:36:22AM -0800, ghislain wrote: What about the Ben NanoNote (http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Main_Page). They showed how the process is done, from the beginning to the end (I don't know about the funding). Although it's not a phone, I do have a working ultra-portable now for a reasonable price :) (It just needs some software-ports, but that is part of the fun). Ghislain http://www.basetrend.nl BaseTrend - http://www.openmobile.nl openmobile.nl -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/gta02-core-was-Re-OM-future-tp4628177p4631684.html Sent from the Openmoko Community mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: gta02-core (was Re: OM future)
On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 03:10:21 -0800 (PST) ghislain ghisl...@basetrend.nl said: Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman)-2 wrote: On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 02:36:22 -0800 (PST) ghislain ghisl...@basetrend.nl said: What about the Ben NanoNote (http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Main_Page). They showed how the process is done, from the beginning to the end (I don't know about the funding). i dont need yet another mini pda. i have a small army of them - that dont replace the phone junk in my pocket. i - and i would say the vast majority of people, dont want multiple things in their pockets - why do u think pda's are dead? they want 1, and the phone trumped all of it for communications reasons. if you dont have a phone you instantly made your potential market a lot smaller. if it doesnt fit in a pocket easily - you just shrunk your market significantly. the more you move your product into a market niche, the more likely it is to fail due to just not making enough volume. open products is already a niche. nanonote is a fair bit simpler than a phone - much less RF, no complex fcc testing (and every body on the planet) to get certification, no modem at all so skipping one of the big problem areas - its very simple. its not a bad little toy - but its a far cry from a phone. ask wolfgang - he's behind nanonote - ex openmoko. he didnt learn from nanonote - he learned from om to make nanonote. why do u think its not a phone? because a phone is way more expensive - and harder. It was not an example of what you need, it was an example of how they did it and what we can learn of it. Also, it's not 'yet another mini pda', because of it's openness you can use it the way you want, just use your imagination and your programming skills :) sure - i can do that with my smartq5 too and my other myriad of toys. none of them replace my phone - and making a phone is complex and expensive. Your statement 'open products is already a niche' is the exact statement I heard 15-years ago about open-software. We are just at the beginning, just give it some time. :) and it *IS* a niche. by open products i mean the ones where you open up everything - source and hardware and the target market DEMANDS open or you wont sell anything. that market will remain niche for a very long time - if ever. the general i dont care much as long as it has cool apps and makes calls and does its job market will be 95% (number pulled out of arse - meaning vast majority) of the market. thats that's what the big boys cater to. and thats where all the best hardware is - the kind nerds so dearly want to be open so they too can play with it. the way to go (imho) is to make that 95% have more openness to it - android was a big start - maemeo is also a big positive there - as is moblin.. and now the meego. no - not 100% open, but its working its way there. if you are going to hanging out and wait for gta02-core to make a p0hone - you may be waiting forever. if it does happen you'll find yourself comparing to iphone 4g or nexus 2 or whatever is now out in the 95% of the market. and then crying why it sucks so much in comparison. that was already the case for freerunner. like it or not there is an expectation of at least being in the same ballpark - and as such the big-boys ballpark keeps drifting further away from the open one. i think it's better to make the big ballpark have more open in it than to stick to the dminishing distant pure open island far from everything interesting :( Ghislain http://www.basetrend.nl BaseTrend - http://www.openmobile.nl openmobile.nl -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/gta02-core-was-Re-OM-future-tp4628177p4631828.html Sent from the Openmoko Community mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- - Codito, ergo sum - I code, therefore I am -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: gta02-core (was Re: OM future)
On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 11:16:46 + Wolfgang Spraul wolfg...@sharism.cc said: Ghislain, They showed how the process is done, from the beginning to the end (I don't know about the funding). even that is open :-) (scroll down to second part) http://en.qi-hardware.com/pipermail/developer/2010-February/001918.html and it's rather cute. :) Although it's not a phone, I do have a working ultra-portable now for a reasonable price :) (It just needs some software-ports, but that is part of the fun). Phone is super hard. I finally agree with rasterman on something and share most of what he said earlier in this thread about the economics of getting an 'open' hardware project going. It's tough. And the phone is the toughest of them all. wow! woflgang... we agree? next the earth will spin backwards... :) (seriously- nice work on nanonote. i'm just being harshly realistic here to not let people get too optimistic - all for open devices... but its hard. hyper-hard if its a phone. the simpler the device, the easier it is). OpenPandora took 4000 pre-orders and financed it that way, hopefully they will make it, they still have a long way to go, product wise and company wise. indeed. 4000 orders at $330 each - no modem to deal with either and much less pain wrt RF and miniaturisation to make it small. thats $1.3mil in the bank just to get it oign.. and then it's still 1.5 years and no product. a phone to make 40k units would be easily double that - if not triple. and thats 2g only. 3g will bump that up again. i did the sums - to do an open phone equivalent to iphone/pal pre/n900 etc. world - it'd cost about $13mil - and that was to get to being profitable (ie your profits now pay to run the operation. so u'd need to find $13mil of money to make it happen. otherwise u will eventually run yourself out of money and cease operation. $13mil would get you over the hump - just. this is why i too gave up on trying to do an open phone - the money needed was just astronomical. and that money didnt include marketing, sales, logisitcs, etc. etc. - it assumes word-of-mouth publicity (and hoping to get onto digg/reddit/slashdot etc.), an expensive $600-700 or so unit price and direct sales - not allowing for margins for resellers. (wolfgang - would i be far off the mark here? i don't think so). For the phone, what do you guys think about the osmocom project by Harald and friends? http://bb.osmocom.org interesting - from a research point of view. the real question is.. what is the reality of getting it onto a real 3g (hspa+) or lte capable chipset in the future. even then there is the fear that the hw is so raw and able to be squeeze by code, that such code should never be open as mobile networks are very fragile - and no company wants to be known as the one that sells phones that can easily bring down the telcos networks with some malicious firmware. the best i see here is firmware being open, but its signed and only signed binaries get run - do in the end this thwarts a major goal of being open anyway. i wish it would be better, but i wouldnt hold out a lot of hope here beyond this being a cool research project or ending up as above - signed only binaries will run. :( From what I understand so far, they will continue to hack their way to make a GPL GSM stack work with Calypso RF/DSP chips, and later maybe MTK chips. The RF chips themselves are way out of reach for any of us (to make our own open version), even way harder than the GPL'ed Milkymist SoC I think we will get eventually [1] [2]. So to build a phone around osmocom, we have to reuse MTK RF/DSP chips? Anybody interested in financing it? :-) raster - do you want to pre-order one osmocom phone for 1M USD as you said? hahahahaha.. yeah right :) thats my point :) the prices get so silly in small volume - u'd have to be a mark shuttleworth to do this. i am not in that league by a long shot :) if theres a multi-squillionaire floating here with nothing better to do with their money.. by all means! make this elusive open phone! it can be done - price tag above for a modern one (map3 based, 3g hspa module etc.) is about $13mil. get that money together and you have a shot. :) You have OpenPandora experience already, this one could only be better. On steroids! What do you think? Wolfgang [1] http://www.milkymist.org [2] http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Milkymist_One if you can get your milkymist as an asic with good speed - we might be talking. add in a good cotrex-a8 soc.. and you have a possible open acceleration engine (can be used for 3d, 2d etc.) and a powerful soc - u can leave out the 3d unit from it so not to confuse people (or keep it in for those that are happy with a closed driver). but again - need the pot of gold above :) On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 02:36:22AM -0800, ghislain wrote: What about the Ben NanoNote (http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Main_Page). They showed how the process is done, from the beginning to the
Re: gta02-core (was Re: OM future)
raster, may be waiting forever. if it does happen you'll find yourself comparing to iphone 4g or nexus 2 or whatever is now out in the 95% of the market. and then crying why it sucks so much in comparison. that was already the case for freerunner. like it or not there is an expectation of at least being in the same ballpark - and as such the big-boys ballpark keeps drifting further away from the open one. i think it's better to make the big ballpark have more I do think there is a 3rd way. The gigahertz/gigabyte race is not the only race in town. Let them have it. A product that just works very well always has a chance. Usability race. Put people and their real needs and real ability to understand and use products in the center. Don't give a damn if everybody around you goes from 2GHz to 3GHz. Again, no hard feelings, let them have it their way. But there is room for slow made (but still high-tech) products. Product cycles that are so long that they allow real feedback to trickle back from users to creators. What we have now is that most feedback is ignored because by the time it reaches the creators, they are already 2 generations ahead. Plus I have to say - the industry is turning into a produce trash throw-away trash industry so fast I couldn't even imagine. Even I gave in now: When I shop for a DVD player, I buy the cheapest. Absolutely the cheapest. No prisoners taken. Inevitably, some X months later, I run into the first (officially bought) DVD with latest-and-greatest DRM tricks on it that won't play. Now I throw away my player and get a new one (of course cheapest again). This system works quite well. But it's insane! The phone industry is cranking out 1+ billion phones a year. Very soon they need to increase the crappiness and won't fix features in their products so they have a chance to sell the billions more already in the pipeline. There definitely is another way. Must be. Business opportunity! Let's see how long people will be using their FreeRunners, and how long they will be using their N900... If the FreeRunner would be bug free, I'm sure people would still use them in 10+ years, easily. Way to go gta02-core, and way to go osmocom! Wolfgang On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 10:24:22PM +1100, Carsten Haitzler wrote: On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 03:10:21 -0800 (PST) ghislain ghisl...@basetrend.nl said: Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman)-2 wrote: On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 02:36:22 -0800 (PST) ghislain ghisl...@basetrend.nl said: What about the Ben NanoNote (http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Main_Page). They showed how the process is done, from the beginning to the end (I don't know about the funding). i dont need yet another mini pda. i have a small army of them - that dont replace the phone junk in my pocket. i - and i would say the vast majority of people, dont want multiple things in their pockets - why do u think pda's are dead? they want 1, and the phone trumped all of it for communications reasons. if you dont have a phone you instantly made your potential market a lot smaller. if it doesnt fit in a pocket easily - you just shrunk your market significantly. the more you move your product into a market niche, the more likely it is to fail due to just not making enough volume. open products is already a niche. nanonote is a fair bit simpler than a phone - much less RF, no complex fcc testing (and every body on the planet) to get certification, no modem at all so skipping one of the big problem areas - its very simple. its not a bad little toy - but its a far cry from a phone. ask wolfgang - he's behind nanonote - ex openmoko. he didnt learn from nanonote - he learned from om to make nanonote. why do u think its not a phone? because a phone is way more expensive - and harder. It was not an example of what you need, it was an example of how they did it and what we can learn of it. Also, it's not 'yet another mini pda', because of it's openness you can use it the way you want, just use your imagination and your programming skills :) sure - i can do that with my smartq5 too and my other myriad of toys. none of them replace my phone - and making a phone is complex and expensive. Your statement 'open products is already a niche' is the exact statement I heard 15-years ago about open-software. We are just at the beginning, just give it some time. :) and it *IS* a niche. by open products i mean the ones where you open up everything - source and hardware and the target market DEMANDS open or you wont sell anything. that market will remain niche for a very long time - if ever. the general i dont care much as long as it has cool apps and makes calls and does its job market will be 95% (number pulled out of arse - meaning vast majority) of the market. thats that's what the big boys cater to. and thats where all the best hardware is - the kind nerds so dearly want to be open so they too
Re: gta02-core (was Re: OM future)
On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 11:54:35 + Wolfgang Spraul wolfg...@sharism.cc said: raster, may be waiting forever. if it does happen you'll find yourself comparing to iphone 4g or nexus 2 or whatever is now out in the 95% of the market. and then crying why it sucks so much in comparison. that was already the case for freerunner. like it or not there is an expectation of at least being in the same ballpark - and as such the big-boys ballpark keeps drifting further away from the open one. i think it's better to make the big ballpark have more I do think there is a 3rd way. The gigahertz/gigabyte race is not the only race in town. Let them have it. A product that just works very well always has a chance. Usability race. Put people and their real needs and real ability to understand and use products in the center. Don't give a damn if everybody around you goes from 2GHz to 3GHz. Again, no hard feelings, let them have it their way. But there is room for slow made (but still high-tech) products. Product cycles that are so long that they allow real feedback to trickle back from users to creators. What we have now is that most feedback is ignored because by the time it reaches the creators, they are already 2 generations ahead. Plus I have to say - the industry is turning into a produce trash throw-away trash industry so fast I couldn't even imagine. Even I gave in now: When I shop for a DVD player, I buy the cheapest. Absolutely the cheapest. No prisoners taken. Inevitably, some X months later, I run into the first (officially bought) DVD with latest-and-greatest DRM tricks on it that won't play. Now I throw away my player and get a new one (of course cheapest again). This system works quite well. But it's insane! The phone industry is cranking out 1+ billion phones a year. Very soon they need to increase the crappiness and won't fix features in their products so they have a chance to sell the billions more already in the pipeline. There definitely is another way. Must be. Business opportunity! Let's see how long people will be using their FreeRunners, and how long they will be using their N900... If the FreeRunner would be bug free, I'm sure people would still use them in 10+ years, easily. Way to go gta02-core, and way to go osmocom! Wolfgang aaah - the race to the bottom. indeed. thats one way - but that kind of solves itself - whatever the smartphones used 3-4 years ago now is cheap as chips. also remember - dvds havent changed. its the same requirement as when they came out. phones and pc's are in a different world - well if the phone does more than just make calls. they have to deal with apps.. and worse - the internet. the web. and that evolves and changes every day - needing more and more resources on your interface to the internude. were it to be like dvd's where the requirements dont change... it'd get awesomely cheap - but luckily for the hw industry.. thats not the case... so they get to sell u faster/bigger/better.. just to keep up with the internet how it is now. :) let's see - if things get smaller/faster/more efficient web etc. wise.. this may change - but i dont see that happening any time soon. -- - Codito, ergo sum - I code, therefore I am -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: gta02-core (was Re: OM future)
* Wolfgang Spraul wrote, Il 25/02/2010 12:54: There definitely is another way. Must be. Business opportunity! Let's see how long people will be using their FreeRunners, and how long they will be using their N900... If the FreeRunner would be bug free, I'm sure people would still use them in 10+ years, easily. I agree here, totally. And IMHO openess *should* be different in this aspect: it *must* be detached from a consumerism centered economy. But these products must be really bug free and working very well. Unfortunately it's still not the case of the FreeRunner (hardware side *and* software side). -- Andrea ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [qtmoko] New significant speedups coming to FreeRunner
Dnia 13 lutego 2010 12:42 ghislain ghisl...@basetrend.nl napisał(a): Timo Juhani Lindfors wrote: How can kernel modules affect graphics performance? Maybe because some of the necessary modules can't be loaded now. I use this kernel on QtMoko and graphics are very fast, this was the only reason I could think of. Yes, i think this is because of QtMoko v19 nodebug kernel so syslogs are not slowing down all drivers. Thx Radek this kernel kicks ass. Gui is very resonsive, as never before. Best regards. Bartek ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: gta02-core (was Re: OM future)
Glad I read this. I completely agree, yet I would like to add another thing : Lets consider the whole market for mobile devices. It's composed for one part of the yupee techno addicts that want the latest gadget around, and for the other part by other people that have either no special attraction to technology, or not the budget to buy the latest gadget, or not the desire to confront the latest, buggiest and more complex devices. Like the PC market is composed for one part of the gamers who want the latest chips and can endure painful configuration and frequent crashes, and for the other part by normal people with simple needs who are more than happy with an EEE desktop (for instance). Due to our occupation and jobs we are probably all surrounded by the former kind of person, plus the advertisements everywhere suggest that everyone have or want the latest gadget, but honestly which part of the market looks like a niche ? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: gta02-core (was Re: OM future)
-[ Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 10:47:35PM +1100, Carsten Haitzler ] a phone to make 40k units would be easily double that - if not triple. and thats 2g only. 3g will bump that up again. I don't know for other countries, but here in France the majority of 3g subscribers never use it. All day long you can see adds on TV trying to sell video calls, TV on phone, etc, yet you could pack in a bus all the people that actually _use_ these services. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: gta02-core (was Re: OM future)
On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 16:00:49 +0100 ri...@happyleptic.org said: -[ Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 10:47:35PM +1100, Carsten Haitzler ] a phone to make 40k units would be easily double that - if not triple. and thats 2g only. 3g will bump that up again. I don't know for other countries, but here in France the majority of 3g subscribers never use it. All day long you can see adds on TV trying to sell video calls, TV on phone, etc, yet you could pack in a bus all the people that actually _use_ these services. internet. need i say more. as such its actually used here in australia, and in japan, and korea, and the usa, etc. - people really do use phones for looking up stuff, maps (yes downloading the maps as you go), blogging, instant messaging and email - oh god email. sure - video calls, tv etc. are pretty moot - but the other things definitely use 3g - there is a big difference between 2g and 3g for speed when it comes to loading web pages. not to mention cost-wise - 2g and 3g get priced differently with 3g being much much much cheaper for data in au than 2g generally (cheapest telco for data is 3 and they are 3g only - 2g data rates are just silly. 3g data is cheap). but - u'd need a phone that actually uses such things nicely and still most people dont have one. you'd need an iphone, modern android or palm webos device for this to really work. then it becomes a different game as your phone can make use of all that data... -- - Codito, ergo sum - I code, therefore I am -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: gta02-core (was Re: OM future)
As rasterman knows quite a bit more about hardware than most people I know, I'm curious to know his opinion on the Flow G1.5 and up-coming G2 from Gizmo for you? http://www.gizmoforyou.net/site/ Sounds at least as open hardware-wise and Openmoko was and seems to actually be available for a price, though a rather high one. I also find the game platform and general-purpose daughter card rather interesting. Cheers, John Gay ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
gta02-core (was Re: OM future)
Wolfgang Spraul wolfg...@sharism.cc wrote: If the FreeRunner would be bug free, I'm sure people would still use them in 10+ years, easily. The truth is that even though the Freerunner is buggy as hell, some people will still be using them in 10+ years. Face it, we are now in the same boat as the Apple Newton fanatics. We play with phones, because we enjoy playing with phones. There is no viable business model here. None. Openmoko Inc had a far better shot at success than any open phone manufacturer will have again for the foreseeable future. When the Neo 1973 came out, there were no mass-market linux phones available. The competition was relatively weak back then. And still Openomoko was not able to make a go of it. Perhaps better management would have made a difference. But that doesn't matter now. If you go to the maemo IRC channel these days, it's like an Openmoko reunion. The people who want to make applications for a linux phone have moved on. They were a significant part of the Openmoko community, and they want a linux phone that works. If a gta03 were to go on sale tomorrow, I believe it would sell more poorly than the gta02 did. And the gta02 didn't sell enough units to keep Openmoko Inc in the phone business. The gta02-core and gta03 are of interest only to a proper subset of the people who were originally interested in Openmoko phones. As Raster has pointed out, the idea that a group of hobbyists is going to make a viable phone in their spare time, using parts which are collecting dust in Sean's closet, is risible. The other possible future for OM software is anti-vendor ports. It's hard to imagine that the OM software running on something like the Palm Pre will work more smoothly than the same software running on the OM hardware, for which the developers did not have to reverse engineer many things. So if the anti-vendor ports are successful, we'll end up being able to turn something like the Palm Pre into a buggy hobbyist toy like the FreeRunner. Hooray! Some in the OM community seem to suggest that if vendors *just knew* that they could have the wonderful SHR software for free, they'd design phones around it. I disagree. There is very little incentive for vendors and telecoms to support open systems, and plenty of reasons for them not to. From a vendor's point of view, selling a phone that the user has full control of is a nightmare. If something like the SHR stack ever actually entered widespread use, it would be the perfect platform for malware. Users would be bricking their phones right and left. Calls to service centers would go way up. Phone networks would be subject to DOS attacks. The only reason that PCs are general purpose computers is a historical accident - PCs grew out of the hobbyist market, and hobbyists wanted a machine they could program. There was no threat of external malware in the early 1980s. The constant fight against PC malware is the price we now pay for that heritage. Most PC users would be better off with a machine that came with a web browser, a few tools for photo manipulation and multimedia, and which could not have any additional software installed. With smart phones, the industry has a chance to replay history. They can make the platform closed, and largely prevent the whole malware nightmare. They can reduce the universe of software configurations they have to support. It makes sense for them to do that. Sad as it is for us, the most sensible approach for phone makers is probably Apple's. I enjoy playing with my Freerunners, and my Neo 1973. Others do too. But be honest with yourself - these phones are a dead end. At this point we are like the nut-cases who want to run linux on their iPods. Ken ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: gta02-core (was Re: OM future)
internet. need i say more. as such its actually used here in australia, and in japan, and korea, and the usa, etc. - people really do use phones for looking up stuff, maps (yes downloading the maps as you go), blogging, instant messaging and email - oh god email. sure - video calls, tv etc. are pretty moot - but the other things definitely use 3g - there is a big difference between 2g and 3g for speed when it comes to loading web pages. not to mention cost-wise - 2g and 3g get priced differently with 3g being much much much cheaper for data in au than 2g generally (cheapest telco for data is 3 and they are 3g only - 2g data rates are just silly. 3g data is cheap). but - u'd need a phone that actually uses such things nicely and still most people dont have one. you'd need an iphone, modern android or palm webos device for this to really work. then it becomes a different game as your phone can make use of all that data... Lets take the desktop analogy further I use a 2004 Tosiba laptop with a celeron processor (ubuntu ) as my main laptop still. 6 years down the line the modern internet runs perfectly on it (modern games pretty much don't :). Firefox renders pretty much everything, Java works, maps, banking, server hosted apps, social networking sites; everything really does work. Now I have two employees in my 3 people company and both my employees have had their laptops upgraded (at my cost). One has a fancy HP with one of the latest intel processors and the other a macbook. Did they really need these upgardes to use the modern evolving web? No. But they definitely felt that they needed the latest hardware to be productive in their work. Why am i mentioning all these anecdotes. Because I feel that they highlight the fact that people will always want the latest and fanciest hardware they can afford but at the sametime its just BS to say you need the latest hardware to run the evolving internet. Snapdragon is cool but the 233 MHz samsung in the Neo 1973 is still more than capable of handling anything the mobile internet has thrown up till now (if designed properly - like raster is right about the qvga screen in the OM phones). I do buy the 3G module and lisense cost issues and till date I don't see how this can be worked around for a fully open phone. Anyway Qi's roadmap does say Open Phone in 2012 http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Roadmap So we continue to dream :) Rakshat -- - Codito, ergo sum - I code, therefore I am -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- -- Please use Firefox as your web browser. Its protects you from spyware and is also a very feature rich browser. www.firefox.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: gta02-core (was Re: OM future)
Hello, --- On Thu, 2/25/10, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra r...@1407.org wrote: Em 25-02-2010 01:39, Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) escreveu: boys with the big pots of money are surprisingly close [snip] compromises. but you can get some of it at least. Oh come on, don't beat them with a stick, if you don't have people working on this now, then when the time comes there will be pretty much nothing to show and all the time of development will have to start *then* instead of now :) The beauty of these communities thing is that one resource spent in developping gta02-core is not one resource not spent in SHR because (and I might be wrong here because I'm not into gta02-core) most likely gta02-core people don't feel as excited writing software for a smartphone environment (PIM, call support, other apps, etc...). As such, gta02-core people are not diminishing SHR people, but complementing. You are right and that is my point. The other bits around about big companies with money doing propietary stuff is off topic; since the original thread mail was intended to talk about community projects which learn the proper software/hardware development processes needed for an open mobile phone, no about who is going to do a product for the 95% of the market and which is that product. Sorry for my english guys, maybe I did not explain the idea very well. Rafael ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [debian] ssh hangs
nope. and not with other targets. only the fr, which makes me suspect it What if you ssh to localhost on FR itself? while trying that it occurs to me, that there's no way to answer that: - i still have not found how reliably reproduce the issue -- it happens pretty frequently, but, you know, a watched kettle never boils - the only sensbile way to try that, is by connecting via ssh from my box and then locally on the fr -- but, if the connection freezes again, how do i tell whether it was caused by the local or the remote one? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: gta02-core (was Re: OM future)
rakshat hooja escribió: Anyway Qi's roadmap does say Open Phone in 2012 http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Roadmap So we continue to dream :) It says 2011 :) Cheers! Kosa - Un mundo mejor es posible - ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [debian] minor enhancements
On 28 January 2010 10:24, Michael 'Mickey' Lauer mic...@vanille-media.de wrote: Am Donnerstag, den 28.01.2010, 08:24 +0200 schrieb Timo Jyrinki: Well, I think you could discuss with FSO team if you could commit rights to the zhone repository there. It's the most obvious/known place anyway, and I'd think it'd bring more visibility to the patches in your tree if they would be there. Absolutely. If you want to get commit access to zhone, drop me your ssh key. Just to let anyone interested know: I have now pushed some commits to the zhone repository at git.freesmartphone.org, and I intend to continue doing so from time to time, which I think that changes are stable and safe enough. For what it's worth, I think that zhone is a very attractive phone application, and so well worth a bit of continuing work. All interested parties: please do keep an eye on the repository from time to time, and let me know if you have any concerns. Also, if you have any suggestions, requests or patches, please feel free to send them to me. Regards, Neil ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
[PATCH] frameworkd battery status reporting
On 5 February 2010 22:44, Neil Jerram neiljer...@googlemail.com wrote: On 14 January 2010 22:41, Neil Jerram neiljer...@googlemail.com wrote: I've just installed Timo's kernel from http://users.tkk.fi/~tajyrink/moko/kernel_20100108_nodebug_nopreempt/uImage-moredrivers-GTA02_oma-andy-2a04ce8203d7d0f1.bin, [...] But I noticed two apparent changes/regressions. 1. The openmoko-panel-plugin battery icon doesn't notice changes to the battery charging state. I can force it to notice by clicking on the icon, but it doesn't notice itself. I guess that means that the dbus signals for charging status are not working. I think I've fixed this one. Apparently kobject notification has changed behaviour in the case where the /sys paths that frameworkd watches are symbolic links. When the Python-level notification callback is called, the path given is a canonical link, not the original symbolic link path. I'd like to get the attached frameworkd patch upstream, if people think it is correct. But it occurs to me that I don't recall hearing this problem being reported by SHR users - and so I'm wondering if that might mean that the patch isn't right for SHR. Is the current SHR kernel significantly different (older?) from Timo's no-debug kernel at the location above? In particular, can anyone pin down whether it contains the same (apparent) sysfs change as described above? (I'm afraid I haven't yet managed to find that change in the andy-tracking git log.) Alternatively, does SHR do battery status reporting in some completely different way, which would be unaffected by this patch? Thanks in advance for any enlightenment... Neil From 14eef5a5bfc1e9d1b673fa1af050a4bb8a3118d4 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001 From: Neil Jerram neiljer...@googlemail.com Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2010 22:35:40 + Subject: [PATCH] Fix battery status reporting with latest andy-tracking kernel --- framework/patterns/kobject.py |4 1 files changed, 4 insertions(+), 0 deletions(-) diff --git a/framework/patterns/kobject.py b/framework/patterns/kobject.py index fec201b..adc44fa 100644 --- a/framework/patterns/kobject.py +++ b/framework/patterns/kobject.py @@ -108,6 +108,10 @@ class KObjectDispatcher( object ): def _addMatch( self, action, path, callback ): logger.debug( _addMatch %s, %s, %s % ( action, path, callback ) ) +path = os.path.realpath( /sys%s % path ) +logger.debug( real /sys path for addMatch is %s % path ) +path = path[4:] +logger.debug( real path for addMatch is %s % path ) #print action='%s', path='%s' % ( action, path ) if action == '*': self._addMatch( add, path, callback ) -- 1.7.0 ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: RFC: FSOSHRCON 2010 kickoff
On Thu, 11.02.2010 at 02:15:22 +0100, Frederik Sdun frederik.s...@googlemail.com wrote: yes of course. The U in FSOSHRUDCON stands for user and it's public conference, but hotelrooms might be limited. It's probably not too far away from my home, so it means that I hope to be able to attend. Anyway, I think that the OM idea has to move forward. :) What about registration etc.pp.? Kind regards, --Toni++ ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Fwd: Your message to community awaits moderator approval
Does this list actually have any active moderators? If not, who has the authority to appoint a new one? Or should the list config be loosened? I sent an email with lots of diagnostics about non-reported SMSes, and it seems to have been swallowed by a black hole. Regards, Neil -- Forwarded message -- From: community-boun...@lists.openmoko.org Date: 6 February 2010 15:19 Subject: Your message to community awaits moderator approval To: neiljer...@googlemail.com Your mail to 'community' with the subject Re: Investigation of failure to report received SMS Is being held until the list moderator can review it for approval. The reason it is being held: Message body is too big: 56729 bytes with a limit of 40 KB Either the message will get posted to the list, or you will receive notification of the moderator's decision. If you would like to cancel this posting, please visit the following URL: http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/confirm/community/068718d019a4fc038b90d099c9a86cf672f5e62f ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Problems with NWA
On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 3:34 PM, Davide Scaini dsca...@gmail.com wrote: yes.. you have to use qt libs from noko repos dalle libqt* 4.4.3-r3 (while in shr repos you find 4.6.0-r14.1.4). It's a problem in cflgs when compiling qts on shr... nicola (the developer of nwa) is aware of this, and shr guys I think too... d [...] Martin fixed qt builds (thanks again), and Ben just reported that NWA works again after upgrading. Regards Niko ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Fwd: Your message to community awaits moderator approval
sounds like you should create a bug and post a summary here when it gets that big. BillK On Thu, 2010-02-25 at 23:04 +, Neil Jerram wrote: Does this list actually have any active moderators? If not, who has the authority to appoint a new one? Or should the list config be loosened? I sent an email with lots of diagnostics about non-reported SMSes, and it seems to have been swallowed by a black hole. Regards, Neil -- Forwarded message -- From: community-boun...@lists.openmoko.org Date: 6 February 2010 15:19 Subject: Your message to community awaits moderator approval To: neiljer...@googlemail.com Your mail to 'community' with the subject Re: Investigation of failure to report received SMS Is being held until the list moderator can review it for approval. The reason it is being held: Message body is too big: 56729 bytes with a limit of 40 KB Either the message will get posted to the list, or you will receive notification of the moderator's decision. If you would like to cancel this posting, please visit the following URL: http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/confirm/community/068718d019a4fc038b90d099c9a86cf672f5e62f ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- William Kenworthy bi...@iinet.net.au Home in Perth! ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: gta02-core (was Re: OM future)
On Fri, 2010-02-26 at 02:10 +1100, Carsten Haitzler wrote: On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 16:00:49 +0100 ri...@happyleptic.org said: -[ Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 10:47:35PM +1100, Carsten Haitzler ] a phone to make 40k units would be easily double that - if not triple. and thats 2g only. 3g will bump that up again. I don't know for other countries, but here in France the majority of 3g subscribers never use it. All day long you can see adds on TV trying to sell video calls, TV on phone, etc, yet you could pack in a bus all the people that actually _use_ these services. internet. need i say more. as such its actually used here in australia, and in japan, and korea, and the usa, etc. - people really do use phones for looking up stuff, maps (yes downloading the maps as you go), blogging, instant messaging and email - oh god email. sure - video calls, tv etc. are pretty moot - but the other things definitely use 3g - there is a big difference between 2g and 3g for speed when it comes to loading web pages. not to mention cost-wise - 2g and 3g get priced differently with 3g being much much much cheaper for data in au than 2g generally (cheapest telco for data is 3 and they are 3g only - 2g data rates are just silly. 3g data is cheap). but - u'd need a phone that actually uses such things nicely and still most people dont have one. you'd need an iphone, modern android or palm webos device for this to really work. then it becomes a different game as your phone can make use of all that data... Also dont forget progress - here in Western Australia GSM coverage is static and may even be shrinking, where 3G is already far greater and expanding. The freerunner is a phone only as long as a network is available to connect to - as I found out when on holiday last year. Think driving hundreds of kilometers with no connection at all, where a 3G phone at least had a connection at many places. GSM obsolete here :( BillK ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
[shr-u 20100212] what has happened to mickeyterm?
so i reflashed to 20100212 a while ago. but i was overseas and did not have a working sim card. back home i go and try to makes some phone calls only to discovery everyone is complaining about my call quality. i, not wanting to annoy people, go to check the mickeyterm settings for noise and what now. only to find -sh: mickeyterm: not found. so, where has it gone? is it dead? is there a replacement? was it simply just missing from the 20100212 build? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Fwd: Your message to community awaits moderator approval
Ether that or use something like Pastebin for all the debugging output and other large amounts of text, but the best thing in a case like that would be to open a bug report. On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 6:26 PM, William Kenworthy bi...@iinet.net.auwrote: sounds like you should create a bug and post a summary here when it gets that big. BillK On Thu, 2010-02-25 at 23:04 +, Neil Jerram wrote: Does this list actually have any active moderators? If not, who has the authority to appoint a new one? Or should the list config be loosened? I sent an email with lots of diagnostics about non-reported SMSes, and it seems to have been swallowed by a black hole. Regards, Neil -- Forwarded message -- From: community-boun...@lists.openmoko.org Date: 6 February 2010 15:19 Subject: Your message to community awaits moderator approval To: neiljer...@googlemail.com Your mail to 'community' with the subject Re: Investigation of failure to report received SMS Is being held until the list moderator can review it for approval. The reason it is being held: Message body is too big: 56729 bytes with a limit of 40 KB Either the message will get posted to the list, or you will receive notification of the moderator's decision. If you would like to cancel this posting, please visit the following URL: http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/confirm/community/068718d019a4fc038b90d099c9a86cf672f5e62f ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- William Kenworthy bi...@iinet.net.au Home in Perth! ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: gta02-core (was Re: OM future)
On Fri, 26 Feb 2010 07:31:48 +0800 William Kenworthy bi...@iinet.net.au said: but - u'd need a phone that actually uses such things nicely and still most people dont have one. you'd need an iphone, modern android or palm webos device for this to really work. then it becomes a different game as your phone can make use of all that data... Also dont forget progress - here in Western Australia GSM coverage is static and may even be shrinking, where 3G is already far greater and expanding. The freerunner is a phone only as long as a network is available to connect to - as I found out when on holiday last year. Think driving hundreds of kilometers with no connection at all, where a 3G phone at least had a connection at many places. GSM obsolete here :( just wait until the LTE (or whatever comes after 3.5g) craze comes. gsm likely will start being dismantled - i know if i travel to korea or japan i NEED a 3g phone. 2g just doesnt work as they have no gsm/gprs etc. networks at all - only 3g. -- - Codito, ergo sum - I code, therefore I am -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: gta02-core (was Re: OM future)
On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 22:18:31 +0530 rakshat hooja raks...@gmail.com said: but - u'd need a phone that actually uses such things nicely and still most people dont have one. you'd need an iphone, modern android or palm webos device for this to really work. then it becomes a different game as your phone can make use of all that data... Lets take the desktop analogy further I use a 2004 Tosiba laptop with a celeron processor (ubuntu ) as my main laptop still. 6 years down the line the modern internet runs perfectly on it (modern games pretty much don't :). Firefox renders pretty much everything, Java works, maps, banking, server hosted apps, social networking sites; everything really does work. probably because you're a nerd and don't use what regular people do - regular peolpe use sites covered in flash - and with a 2ghz celeron and 2gb of ram... things bog down... and i hear the whingeing all the time. i keep saying close firefox - dont have 12 tabs open each with 5 flash ads and so on but that doesnt change. behavior doesnt change - there is an insistence that no matter what they do - things work properly. and it gets worse month after month. yes - it's linux. people do more and want more. and the internet requires more. i 100% disagree that the itnernet of 1997 uses the same browser and local resources of the internet 2010 for the vast majority of people. it squarely does not. and every year those resources needed goes up. Now I have two employees in my 3 people company and both my employees have had their laptops upgraded (at my cost). One has a fancy HP with one of the latest intel processors and the other a macbook. Did they really need these upgardes to use the modern evolving web? No. But they definitely felt that they needed the latest hardware to be productive in their work. Why am i mentioning all these anecdotes. Because I feel that they highlight the fact that people will always want the latest and fanciest hardware they can afford but at the sametime its just BS to say you need the latest hardware to run the evolving internet. Snapdragon is cool but the 233 MHz samsung in the Neo 1973 is still more than capable of handling anything the mobile internet has thrown up till now (if designed properly - like raster is right about the qvga screen in the OM phones). but at vga.. it's pushing it. and as more stuff becomes js and ajax.. html5 - this wil change. as you dont have flash - you havent noticed. add flash in and you'll think otherwise. and dont go blaming flash - flash uses those resoruces because of the richer things it does and people like and WANT those. and as js +html5/ajax etc. do more of what flash has been doing you will see the same resource issues in regular browsers. I do buy the 3G module and lisense cost issues and till date I don't see how this can be worked around for a fully open phone. Anyway Qi's roadmap does say Open Phone in 2012 http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Roadmap aaah roadmaps. how many i have seen and how many of them are filled with complete bunk - by this i mean there is little to no REALITY behind them - they are wishlists, not firm schedules that can be done. i do hope qi manages to get there - i wish wolfgan all the best in getting there - but i know how hard it really is - he does too. it's monumentally difficult. and its difficult even if you have a pot of gold. -- - Codito, ergo sum - I code, therefore I am -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: gta02-core (was Re: OM future)
On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 11:04:26 -0500 Gay, John (GE Infra, Energy, Non-GE) john@ge.com said: As rasterman knows quite a bit more about hardware than most people I know, I'm curious to know his opinion on the Flow G1.5 and up-coming G2 from Gizmo for you? http://www.gizmoforyou.net/site/ Sounds at least as open hardware-wise and Openmoko was and seems to actually be available for a price, though a rather high one. I also find the game platform and general-purpose daughter card rather interesting. i think it's interesting. it's about the closest you can come to the guys with a pot of gold and some hw. but - comparing it to a normal smartphone is hard. it'd rough/ its bulky - very bulky. it's pretty old technology - except for the cpu *gumstix) unit. the 3g unit seems decent. no idea of reception etc. that price of 586 eur ($793 - lets say $800) (plus shipping etc.) is also double the freerunner. and people bitched on how expensive it was (it wasn't really they are just used to subsidised prices). now it's unclear if they include the gumstix daughterboards or not as its the same price. i think you need to buy them in addition (add $219 or $149 + shipping for these from gumstix (the $219 will approximate a phone like the pre/n900 etc. as you get bt, wifi 3d and dsp - the $149 earth has no wifi, bt, dsp or 3d - so you lose all of them for the drop in price). so... $800 + $220 + 2 lots of shipping (lets say $20 shipping for each - really generous as it can be a LOT more (or a little less))... so... $800 + $220 + $20 + $20 - $1060. so.. thats your price for a rough phone - yes. it's pretty open. yes - it's a tinkerers dream. but its more than 2x the price of an n900 - and the n900 is even a little smaller (same thickness) and comes with hw keyboard and better resolution screen, mountains more onboard flash (32m) as well as the micro-sd slot. so as such just comparing the devices - the n900 is 50% of the price and a better unit - but it's not open. and the n900 is one of the bulkiest things around in recent times. also you get no warranty :) but thats the price of tinkerability. so - flow - interesting. rather cool actually, but pretty rough and ugly, expensive, troublesome (need to put it together yourself). also it's android - so you'll need to port shr/debian/whatever to it (well get it up) if you dont want android (if all you want is android theres lots more nicer devices that are cheaper - but you may be a i must have open hardware guy so who knows). so all in all it's as close as you get if you must have open hw you can swizzle - but you pay a hefty premium for it. it's also bulky and rather rough (looks-wise). i don't think i'd pay for it. but thats my choice. it simply doesnt present good value compared to the hardware that's there. -- - Codito, ergo sum - I code, therefore I am -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: gta02-core (was Re: OM future)
On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 11:41:24 -0800 (PST) Rafael Ignacio Zurita rizur...@yahoo.com said: Hello, --- On Thu, 2/25/10, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra r...@1407.org wrote: Em 25-02-2010 01:39, Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) escreveu: boys with the big pots of money are surprisingly close [snip] compromises. but you can get some of it at least. Oh come on, don't beat them with a stick, if you don't have people working on this now, then when the time comes there will be pretty much nothing to show and all the time of development will have to start *then* instead of now :) The beauty of these communities thing is that one resource spent in developping gta02-core is not one resource not spent in SHR because (and I might be wrong here because I'm not into gta02-core) most likely gta02-core people don't feel as excited writing software for a smartphone environment (PIM, call support, other apps, etc...). As such, gta02-core people are not diminishing SHR people, but complementing. You are right and that is my point. The other bits around about big companies with money doing propietary stuff is off topic; since the original thread mail was intended to talk about community projects which learn the proper software/hardware development processes needed for an open mobile phone, no about who is going to do a product for the 95% of the market and which is that product. Sorry for my english guys, maybe I did not explain the idea very well. i'm getting at the fact that the hw side is stuck - it wont work without a pot of gold. the hw side that WORKS are the big companies with lots of pots of gold already. if you want to make something work - work with them on the software side... but you are free to ignore this advice and continue with your idea that you need to work on the process as you'll be working on it without anything being produced for a vry long time (read - never) unless you find a pot of gold. it's the hw side that has these costs that unlike software, can't be replaced by someone simply spending their time on evenings/weekends. it costs real money - get your pot of gold and it can happen, or ork with those who already have the pots of gold - and produce hardware. until then you're an armchair sportsman. you can yell about how that pass was bad or whatever... you won't affect the game - ever. you'll just cover your tv with spittle. :) -- - Codito, ergo sum - I code, therefore I am -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: gta02-core (was Re: OM future)
On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 11:28:18 -0500 (EST) Ken Young r...@cfa.harvard.edu said: Wolfgang Spraul wolfg...@sharism.cc wrote: If the FreeRunner would be bug free, I'm sure people would still use them in 10+ years, easily. The truth is that even though the Freerunner is buggy as hell, some people will still be using them in 10+ years. Face it, we are now in the same boat as the Apple Newton fanatics. We play with phones, because we enjoy playing with phones. There is no viable business model here. None. Openmoko Inc had a far better shot at success than any open phone manufacturer will have again for the foreseeable future. When the Neo 1973 came out, there were no mass-market linux phones available. The competition was relatively weak back then. And still Openomoko was not able to make a go of it. Perhaps better management would have made a difference. But that doesn't matter now. If you go to the maemo IRC channel these days, it's like an Openmoko reunion. oh indeed. the community has dwindled to like 5% of what it was - as the 95% (numbers out of arse again) are not as fanatical about having schemtics, cad designs and every single thing open - they want mostly open - open enough so closed doesnt get in the way of making apps and doing development - modifying even the base system (to a reasonable extent). thats what the vast majority are happy with. closed OpenGL-ES drivers become an issue to them - as they sometimes crash or dont work and there is little hope of debugging your app as its linking to a closed blob. they care about the practicalities of open source. i'm in that boat myself. :) The people who want to make applications for a linux phone have moved on. They were a significant part of the Openmoko community, and they want a linux phone that works. If a gta03 were to go on sale tomorrow, I believe it would sell more poorly than the gta02 did. And the gta02 didn't sell enough units to keep Openmoko Inc in the phone business. The gta02-core and gta03 are of interest only to a proper subset of the people who were originally interested in Openmoko phones. As Raster has pointed out, the idea that a group of hobbyists is going to make a viable phone in their spare time, using parts which are collecting dust in Sean's closet, is risible. The other well ok - you're harsher... i just wanted to inject reality into it - that it wont happen without a lot of money - or with hyper-expensive hardware that is probably well behind the existing out there mass market products possible future for OM software is anti-vendor ports. It's hard to imagine that the OM software running on something like the Palm Pre will work more smoothly than the same software running on the OM hardware, for which the developers did not have to reverse engineer many things. So if the anti-vendor ports are successful, we'll end up being able to turn something like the Palm Pre into a buggy hobbyist toy like the FreeRunner. Hooray! ahahhaha :) tho palm pre would be relatively easy - it's openembedded. its omap3 where most of it is documented and open (excluding 3d unit). but... i get your point :) Some in the OM community seem to suggest that if vendors *just knew* that they could have the wonderful SHR software for free, they'd design phones around it. I disagree. There is very little incentive for vendors and telecoms to support open systems, and plenty of reasons for them not to. From a vendor's point of view, selling a phone that the user has full control of is a nightmare. If something like the SHR stack ever actually entered widespread use, it would be the perfect platform for malware. Users would be bricking their phones right and left. Calls to service centers would go way up. Phone networks would be subject to DOS attacks. well that's a bit extreme - as technically android and the nexus one or adp1 are pretty much this too. but you are right - this is a big fear inside companies - you can rave on about open and benefits all you like - they are scared of this kind of scenario and the bad publicity that comes along with it. you need to loll them in gently one little thing at a time so they gain confidence. let them get a little more open, see that it has no big bad side effects - of anything positive ones, then the next small little thing. tryin big-bang to do everything from hw to sw open is going to net you no love from an existing maker. doing your own i dont see as viable - so you need to take a new strategy. as i've explained already. :) The only reason that PCs are general purpose computers is a historical accident - PCs grew out of the hobbyist market, and hobbyists wanted a machine they could program. There was no threat of external malware in the early 1980s. The constant fight against PC malware is the price we now pay for that heritage. Most PC users would be better off with a machine that came with a web
Re: [shr-u 20100212] what has happened to mickeyterm?
On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 06:50:42PM -0800, jeremy jozwik wrote: so i reflashed to 20100212 a while ago. but i was overseas and did not have a working sim card. back home i go and try to makes some phone calls only to discovery everyone is complaining about my call quality. i, not wanting to annoy people, go to check the mickeyterm settings for noise and what now. only to find -sh: mickeyterm: not found. so, where has it gone? is it dead? is there a replacement? was it simply just missing from the 20100212 build? mterm2 -- uin:136542059jid:martin.ja...@gmail.com Jansa Martin sip:jama...@voip.wengo.fr JaMa ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
