Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone
On 2013-08-23 07:26, openm...@pulster.de wrote:
the GTA04 is a ready-to-use OpenSource smartphone.
The GTA04 *is* out of production and no longer for sale. It *could* be
the motherboard in a ready-to-use smartphone but it *isn't*.
There are no other
reasons why it isnt available, just damn investment $$ are missing.
If money is the only problem then why is nobody running a fundraising
campaign? I don't think money is the only problem.
--
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Re: Building a new totally free phone
joerg Reisenweber jo...@openmoko.org wrote: I invite you to visit me at my home If you meant it seriously, you might as well give your address or GPS coords (by unicast if you prefer) - but I highly doubt that you meant it seriously. trying to force me to hand to you Hand to me? What me? There is no me - I could be dead tomorrow and absolutely *nothing* will change. I have never, ever, ever asked any of you Openmoko bastards to give anything to me. Instead I have merely voiced the demand that the materials be released freely to all Humanity - with a capital 'H' - and yes, I have indeed contemplated being the one to sacrifice my life in order for the remaining 7 billion people on Earth to gain free unrestricted access to a working turnkey GSM firmware package in the form of COFF objects with full symbolic information - a format which any embedded software engineer worth his or her salt should have no problem working with. [FYI, there is a patch to GNU Binutils which enables objcopy and objdump to read TI's COFF. The support isn't perfect, but it can easily be improved if need be - and I also invite you to grep for my name in the binutils ChangeLog files.] the MOST SECRIT SOURCES that everybody [...] had access to since ~2011. The reference to ~2011 makes me suspect that you are talking about the TSM30 version - it was indeed late 2011 when this code (first released in 2004 apparently) became widely available once again - and the latter happened because *I* had sent it to Cryptome on a CD-R. And you know as well as I do (or would know at least, if you ever actually *looked* at the modem code you're sitting on) that the TSM30 version is drastically different from what you got from TI as Om-Inc: different RTOS (Nucleus vs. SOS), different code structure, different flash file system, totally different hardware (ABB, RF and probably a different Calypso variant), almost everything is different. Heck, the TSM30 code isn't even TI, it's Purple Labs, a company that bit the dust. OTOH, if you are talking about something *other* than the TSM30 code, something that everybody passing the idiot test supposedly has access to, why don't you try being transparent once for a change, and actually post a URL? everybody passing the idiot test Like anyone else, I have my own strengths and weaknesses. What I'm good at is designing and writing embedded software, and some hardware too. I've been doing it professionally since ~2000 (and as a hobby long before that), and I make enough money doing it to support not one, but two full households on my sole income - so I guess I probably do it pretty well. I do it on the hobby side of my life too, so you can look at any of my projects and judge for yourselves. Like this one, for example: http://ifctfvax.Harhan.ORG/OpenWAN/ I'm sending this email through the Internet connection served by that SDSL modem designed and built by me: hardware, firmware and the logic in the FPGA - not to mention all the reverse engineering that was needed to get to this point. But I have my weaknesses too. I am NOT good with people, and I am NOT good with finding information that is passed around in a hush-hush manner. I don't do *anything* hush-hush: if I have or find something that may potentially be of value to others, I announce it publicly and openly, on the relevant mailing list. I absolutely do not understand how someone can be like you. I absolutely do not understand how ANY human being (or so-called human being) can be as cruel and callous as the three of you (JR, HW and PF). It's one thing to be slow with releasing things on occasion. I've been slow with releasing my software many a time, mostly because of my handicaps with modern technologies and my heavy use of seriously ancient gear - as well as my fear and distrust of any servers or online services other than my own. But it's an *entirely* different thing when you are holding something that someone else is very willing to DIE for, something that you could easily share with the whole world at absolutely zero cost, risk, loss or other detriment to you, and yet you STILL refuse to share. It absolutely baffles and boggles my mind that there are such cruel people living on this planet, and *especially* in the so-called community of so-called freedom and openness. And because it is so totally incomprehensible to my mind how someone can be like you, and be able to live with yourself while watching someone else's life wither away because of your selfishness, I find myself at a complete loss as to how one should interact with people like you. And I even promise I won't call the police or any other officials. It doesn't matter whether you call them or not - I am still the most wanted criminal in their eyes. Your country is a police state, no different from the way it was in WW II and just before, and I have no desire to go anywhere near it. Unless, of course, I were to enter it in the same manner in which both of
Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone
On Fri 23 August 2013 10:35:38 Bob Ham wrote: On 2013-08-23 07:26, openm...@pulster.de wrote: the GTA04 is a ready-to-use OpenSource smartphone. The GTA04 *is* out of production and no longer for sale. Says who? It *could* be the motherboard in a ready-to-use smartphone but it *isn't*. UHUH! There are no other reasons why it isnt available, just damn investment $$ are missing. If money is the only problem then why is nobody running a fundraising campaign? I don't think money is the only problem. I think it's up to you to answer your own question, instead of implicitly accusing highly honored guys like Nikolaus and Christoph of not telling the truth. To be utterly clear: hardware talks louder than (your) words, I had a complete GTA04 in my mail, and everybody (even you) can start a fundraiser. /j -- () ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail /\ www.asciiribbon.org - against proprietary attachments (alas the above page got scrapped due to resignation(!!), so here some supplementary links:) http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil.shtml http://www.nonhtmlmail.org/campaign.html http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil_still.shtml http://www.gerstbach.at/2004/ascii/ (German) signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone
On 2013-08-23 09:38, joerg Reisenweber wrote:
On Fri 23 August 2013 10:35:38 Bob Ham wrote:
On 2013-08-23 07:26, openm...@pulster.de wrote:
The GTA04 *is* out of production and no longer for sale.
Says who?
Says Golden Delicious:
Note: we currently have no stock since we need to collect at least
200 orders so that we can produce in big enough batches.
-- First sentence on https://shop.goldelico.com/wiki.php?page=GTA04
There are no other
reasons why it isnt available, just damn investment $$ are
missing.
If money is the only problem then why is nobody running a
fundraising
campaign? I don't think money is the only problem.
I think it's up to you to answer your own question, instead of
implicitly
accusing highly honored guys like Nikolaus and Christoph of not
telling the
truth.
There seems to be a misunderstanding here. I'm not accusing anybody of
hiding problems. I'm saying that there are problems other than money
which are preventing the successful production of a free phone. Those
other problems have been discussed openly on this list and others.
everybody (even you) can start a fundraiser.
Of course they *can*. But they're *not*. That's the point.
--
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Re: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3
On 2013-08-23 10:02, openm...@pulster.de wrote:
Its not out of Production, but production is stopped
Err..
What's the difference between out of Production and production is
stopped?
--
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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone
Am 23.08.2013 um 12:08 schrieb Bob Ham: On 2013-08-23 09:38, joerg Reisenweber wrote: On Fri 23 August 2013 10:35:38 Bob Ham wrote: On 2013-08-23 07:26, openm...@pulster.de wrote: The GTA04 *is* out of production and no longer for sale. Says who? Says Golden Delicious: Note: we currently have no stock since we need to collect at least 200 orders so that we can produce in big enough batches. -- First sentence on https://shop.goldelico.com/wiki.php?page=GTA04 There are no other reasons why it isnt available, just damn investment $$ are missing. If money is the only problem then why is nobody running a fundraising campaign? I don't think money is the only problem. I think it's up to you to answer your own question, instead of implicitly accusing highly honored guys like Nikolaus and Christoph of not telling the truth. There seems to be a misunderstanding here. I'm not accusing anybody of hiding problems. I'm saying that there are problems other than money which are preventing the successful production of a free phone. Those other problems have been discussed openly on this list and others. To some extent you are right. There is a problem one would call a structural problem. Sort of an equation system with 0 solutions. everybody (even you) can start a fundraiser. Of course they *can*. But they're *not*. That's the point. We see from this discussion that everybody wants something else, but not what would be easily available. If 200 people agree to put 599 EUR on the table we could start production tomorrow (well, we need 6-8 weeks to get the components) and 200 GTA04 boards would be available in November. We could also order 200 3D-printed cases, earpieces etc. to make complete phones. One issue is that we have just ~70 display modules, and they are out of production for a long time. But there may be some remaining stock in Asia, so it appears to be a solvable problem. Doing a redesign for a different display, different case (N900) is also possible, but takes more time (estimate 4-6 months). But it also needs 200 * 599 EUR on the table. Not to start design or production (that has become my hobby), but to buy components. Now back to the everyone wants something different issue of the problem: * people want a different device (N900 keyboard) * people want an Überphone (Ubuntu Edge) * people want 100% freedom in WLAN, UMTS modem etc. (discussions on this list) * people want to have a device more innovative than Apple and Samsung together And of course - as Christoph points out - cheaper than anything else. I can completely understand all these wishes. Even that it should be cheaper than everythin else. But having the best at the lowest price is a contradiction in itself. It can be fulfilled better, the higher the production volume is. It is a basic law of economy that only #1 and #2 producers can get big margins, big enough to stay #1 and #2 by spending a lot of money for innovation. It is a law that nobody can break - like force of gravity... If you want to study this, please ask yourself why you get the high capacity memory chips you would like to see in a GTA0x only from Micron, Samsung these days and nobody else. At what position are we? We (with this I mean any team formed from the community) are probably #5000 in the smart phone or portable computer business... From this, I think nobody is doing fundraisers or developing a new GTA0x because they either know and see these economical implications or at least have a good gut feeling that they can only loose money they don't have. There are unsuccessful campaigns (Ubuntu edge) and successful ones. If you go deeper into successful campaigns, they offer something really new (wrist phones, wrist displays) which the big companies do not even have. So for a short time frame the early innovator is #1 (Pebble) and #2 (Meta-Watch). But as soon as Apple and Samsung will enter the game arena, things will change rapidly... There is only one factor I can see that would change the game: if more people see a real value in supporting what we all would like to see. And supporting by paying more (and not expecting less). -- hns ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3
Am 23.08.2013 um 12:10 schrieb Bob Ham: On 2013-08-23 10:02, openm...@pulster.de wrote: Its not out of Production, but production is stopped Err.. What's the difference between out of Production and production is stopped? Compare with a train: stopped: is at the railway station and waiting for a green light out of operation: is at the depot and nobody is caring about and knows if it is still operable If there is a better wording, please let me know and we can change it. -- hns ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3
On 2013-08-23 10:38, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
Am 23.08.2013 um 12:10 schrieb Bob Ham:
What's the difference between out of Production and production is
stopped?
Compare with a train:
stopped: is at the railway station and waiting for a green light
I don't understand. What is the green light with respect to the GTA04?
--
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Re: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3
El día Friday, August 23, 2013 a las 10:10:58AM +, Bob Ham escribió: stopped? Concerning stop, can we please stop this SPAM? If you (Bob) have a proposal, how to continue, put it on the table and let's discuss this. Thanks matthias -- Matthias Apitz | /\ ASCII Ribbon Campaign: www.asciiribbon.org E-mail: g...@unixarea.de | \ / - No HTML/RTF in E-mail WWW: http://www.unixarea.de/ | X - No proprietary attachments phone: +49-170-4527211 | / \ - Respect for open standards ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3
On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 12:47 PM, Bob Ham wrote: I don't understand. What is the green light with respect to the GTA04? That was already mentioned; money for components being available. -- bye, pabs ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3
On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 10:47:14AM +, Bob Ham wrote: On 2013-08-23 10:38, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: Am 23.08.2013 um 12:10 schrieb Bob Ham: What's the difference between out of Production and production is stopped? Compare with a train: stopped: is at the railway station and waiting for a green light I don't understand. What is the green light with respect to the GTA04? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3
Am 23.08.2013 um 12:47 schrieb Bob Ham: On 2013-08-23 10:38, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: Am 23.08.2013 um 12:10 schrieb Bob Ham: What's the difference between out of Production and production is stopped? Compare with a train: stopped: is at the railway station and waiting for a green light I don't understand. What is the green light with respect to the GTA04? green light: close to 200 preorders or wishlist entries in the shop. It is like a train (without fixed schedule) waiting at the station for enough paying passengers. Not people just visiting or looking or discussing that the train should run on a different track. Yes, a vintage train is perhaps a good comparison with our GTA04. It costs a lot of money and volunteer work to keep it in operation at a very irregular schedule. And it is more for fun than for real transportation so that passengers pay twice or three times a ticket would cost for the same distance in a modern and more comfortable train. And having a fixed schedule. But 99% of the world population would never see a benefit in riding a vintage train to go from A to B, e.g. for going to daily work. Which is similar to our situation that 99,99% of the world population doesn't see a benefit or an impulse to buy a 100% open device or a community built hardware or an Überphone (which is what the Ubuntu Edge campaign has clearly demonstrated). ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3
On 2013-08-23 10:56, Paul Wise wrote:
On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 12:47 PM, Bob Ham wrote:
I don't understand. What is the green light with respect to the
GTA04?
That was already mentioned; money for components being available.
The fact that there is *no* money was mentioned. Here you seem to be
implying some kind of transition from there being no money to money
being available. How is that transition going to happen? What's going
to cause the green light to go on?
--
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Re: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3
Am 23.08.2013 um 13:18 schrieb Bob Ham: On 2013-08-23 10:56, Paul Wise wrote: On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 12:47 PM, Bob Ham wrote: I don't understand. What is the green light with respect to the GTA04? That was already mentioned; money for components being available. The fact that there is *no* money was mentioned. Here you seem to be implying some kind of transition from there being no money to money being available. How is that transition going to happen? What's going to cause the green light to go on? People deciding to spend some money instead of complaining that it is too expensive. How would you change the mindset of people without brain-washing? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Building a new totally free phone
Your free phone idea appeals to me enormously, Michael. And I, (unlike I suspect some others on the list) very much like your framing of the issues, too. I fully support the idea that if a law makes private conversation illegal, it is a bad law, and regulatory blocks on GSM that forbid inspectable and modifiable cannot but be such. However, can GSM really be a base for secure communication anyway? I've heard that the encryption used is really crappy, and while some things like MITM forced reregistration to disable encryption and ease surveillance could be countered by appropriate phone settings, if the best encryption algorithm available can be cracked by a home PC in a few days, you're still screwed. A truly free phone is a worthy and very important thing for other reasons, but could such a thing be strongly secure too? Or is the only solution there to rely on something like ZRTP in voip, and give up wishing that GSM could provide security? I've always been somewhat vague about how modems and their processors interact with other parts of a system. Am I correct in thinking that once the first firmware part of your project was complete, one could flash load that the GTA02 modem, and have a (far more 'smart' and Linux-y than you're ultimately planning) free openmoko phone? Or would the modem firmware have to be programmed differently for the GTA02 compared to your feature phone? While I am more interested in a feature phone than a 'smart' phone, I would be very happy to have a really free modem firmware on my GTA02 in the meantime. It's interesting to think of the meanings of 'free' in your message. Because one of the nice things of free software traditionally has been the ability to say it's free software, so I can do what I like with it, and you can't invoke state violence against me for doing so, due to a careful 'respect' of the copyrights of people who don't want their stuff to be free. While regulatory reigimes seemingly make this impossible anyway with GSM, I don't relish the idea of essentially giving more power to other people to wield the law against the project or its' users. But I understand that writing a firmware from scratch for something like the Calypso would be a massive amount of work, and I would rather have a reusable and inspectable firmware that breaks copyright law, than none at all, particularly for something as directly dangerous to one's security as a phone. With this in mind, I do wonder why the OsmocomBB work isn't appropriate as a base for your work? Can you explain this a bit more why it isn't? Is it just that they are quite a long way from producing a complete firmware for a phone? And because it is so totally incomprehensible to my mind how someone can be like you, and be able to live with yourself while watching someone else's life wither away because of your selfishness, I find myself at a complete loss as to how one should interact with people like you. I do think you need to be more careful, kind, and forgiving of perceived differences, when speaking to others in the community. We're all in a similar position here, working towards helping people communicate freely. Sure, people have different things they will compromise in order to try to effect this, but ultimately I find it hard to believe that anybody in the openmoko community isn't here in large part because of their wish to see people able to freely communicate. It's fine and healthy to not always agree with others about what compromises are appropriate, and to argue to try to figure out what the best course of action is, but it is unjust to assume malice, and saying what I've quoted above (regardless of how true it may feel) is likely to just turn people off to you. We need all the solidarity we can muster, and we need to celebrate the work people are doing, and try to respect them, and their differences. Even - nay, especially - if there are major differences that you can't understand. I look forward very much to hearing your progress with your project. If there's something I as an enthusiastic but comparitively ignorant volunteer can do to help, let me know! Nick ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Building a new totally free phone
Nick, you raised very good questions. I believe, that we don't need GSM at all. I don't use it for two years now. When we use GSM we use carrier services. Can we be sure that carrier does not track us, don't record our calls etc? For instance, in my country secret service has direct access to the carrier's switches, and can follow calls of any person in real time. They also can write a paper and request this or that person's locations from the carrier. We don't use gmail, because we know they are watching us, then why do we use carriers? The way to be secure is to use trusted service providers, and carriers are too big to be trusted. However we can use own SIP or XMPP servers, we can create small community servers where we trust our service providers. And use them for chat/talk. Should I mention that we use encryption, in both cases - server to server, and client to server. Here we have connectivity problem. Okay, everybody has a wifi at home (or may have). But what if you would like to call someone from the forest? Here what we can do: get an Internet only tariff, use it for making calls/chat etc. But our location still can be tracked if the carrier requires you to identiy yourself when buying a sim card. Here we can do nothing except may be mass exchange of sim cards with random people. Like make an action, when 1000 people goes to get a card, and then they all exchange cards with people they don't even know and won't see most probably in the future. This also has another plus: why pay for each sms? We can chat in internet as long as we wish. --- sent with alpine https://spyurk.am/u/norayr http://norayr.arnet.am/weblog On Fri, 23 Aug 2013, Nick wrote: Your free phone idea appeals to me enormously, Michael. And I, (unlike I suspect some others on the list) very much like your framing of the issues, too. I fully support the idea that if a law makes private conversation illegal, it is a bad law, and regulatory blocks on GSM that forbid inspectable and modifiable cannot but be such. However, can GSM really be a base for secure communication anyway? I've heard that the encryption used is really crappy, and while some things like MITM forced reregistration to disable encryption and ease surveillance could be countered by appropriate phone settings, if the best encryption algorithm available can be cracked by a home PC in a few days, you're still screwed. A truly free phone is a worthy and very important thing for other reasons, but could such a thing be strongly secure too? Or is the only solution there to rely on something like ZRTP in voip, and give up wishing that GSM could provide security? I've always been somewhat vague about how modems and their processors interact with other parts of a system. Am I correct in thinking that once the first firmware part of your project was complete, one could flash load that the GTA02 modem, and have a (far more 'smart' and Linux-y than you're ultimately planning) free openmoko phone? Or would the modem firmware have to be programmed differently for the GTA02 compared to your feature phone? While I am more interested in a feature phone than a 'smart' phone, I would be very happy to have a really free modem firmware on my GTA02 in the meantime. It's interesting to think of the meanings of 'free' in your message. Because one of the nice things of free software traditionally has been the ability to say it's free software, so I can do what I like with it, and you can't invoke state violence against me for doing so, due to a careful 'respect' of the copyrights of people who don't want their stuff to be free. While regulatory reigimes seemingly make this impossible anyway with GSM, I don't relish the idea of essentially giving more power to other people to wield the law against the project or its' users. But I understand that writing a firmware from scratch for something like the Calypso would be a massive amount of work, and I would rather have a reusable and inspectable firmware that breaks copyright law, than none at all, particularly for something as directly dangerous to one's security as a phone. With this in mind, I do wonder why the OsmocomBB work isn't appropriate as a base for your work? Can you explain this a bit more why it isn't? Is it just that they are quite a long way from producing a complete firmware for a phone? And because it is so totally incomprehensible to my mind how someone can be like you, and be able to live with yourself while watching someone else's life wither away because of your selfishness, I find myself at a complete loss as to how one should interact with people like you. I do think you need to be more careful, kind, and forgiving of perceived differences, when speaking to others in the community. We're all in a similar position here, working towards helping people communicate freely. Sure, people have different things they will compromise in order to try to effect this, but ultimately I find it
Re: Building a new totally free phone
However, can GSM really be a base for secure communication anyway? IMHO the need for the GSM stack being open sourced is largely overestimated. Security experts say that the question is how to secure communication over an unsecure communication medium. Depending on which level you want to work, you can try to make GSM more secure because it is communicating over an inherently unsecure/open medium (electro-magnetical wave broadcast). Or you can just use what others have built into a black box (i.e. a modem with some AT commands). They promise that it is secure enough. But if you want to be really secure, just wrap the potentially unsecure channel and encrypt the data sent over it. BTW: all the recent nsa/prism things have shown that it is not sufficient to make a fully transparent (aka open sourced) terminal - if it is easy enough to tap the network nodes. Or the servers you are communicating with. I.e. securing yourself is best done if you put yourself into eremitage... So in my view, spending additional work to get an open sourced GSM or even UMTS firmware stack is a nice excercise for embedded and real time communication protocol engineering, but does not make anything more safe or secure than using a black box module, because it just tries to increase security of one small hop instead of end-to-end. In other words: security measures must be done on the highest layers of the OSI reference model, not on the lowest ones. And that is the area of the application processor and OS. And of course documented schematics help to understand if there are potential backdoors to circumvent the OS or not. So we need a device where you have control over the OS, but not necessarily over the inner workings of all peripherals. -- hns ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Building a new totally free phone
Security experts have moved on from that line of thinking long ago I think. The problem with it is that a GSM/3G/LTE modem is not just a communications channel. It is a generic processor running software. Probably buggy, insecure, proprietary software. Same goes for GPS, WiFi, Ethernet and other external-facing firmware. Depending on the architecture of your device and the simplicity and security of the interface between your modem and your, attackers may be able to turn their probably relatively-easy-to-aquire modem beachhead into full control and monitoring of the whole system. This is the reason the Replicant folks strongly recommend against Qualcomm devices, where the CPU is controlled by the modem. Based on the talks I saw at OHM2013, the SIM card may be a similar threat. The good news is that some SIM cards are insecure enough that you (and remote attackers) can calculate the Ki, remove the SIM and use the Ki instead. OHM2013 also taught me that the carrier networks are full of juicy insecure Linux based systems, so you don't just have to worry about carrier collaboration with nation-state adversaries. Yes, we need better protocols but we also need libre embedded software and carriers who run libre software and have some ethics. -- bye, pabs ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3
On 2013-08-23 11:27, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
Am 23.08.2013 um 13:18 schrieb Bob Ham:
On 2013-08-23 10:56, Paul Wise wrote:
On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 12:47 PM, Bob Ham wrote:
I don't understand. What is the green light with respect to the
GTA04?
That was already mentioned; money for components being available.
The fact that there is *no* money was mentioned. Here you seem to
be implying some kind of transition from there being no money to money
being available. How is that transition going to happen? What's
going to cause the green light to go on?
People deciding to spend some money instead of complaining that it is
too expensive.
What is going to cause people to decide that?
--
Bob Ham r...@settrans.net
for (;;) { ++pancakes; }
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Re: Building a new totally free phone
Am 23.08.2013 14:41, schrieb Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller: However, can GSM really be a base for secure communication anyway? IMHO the need for the GSM stack being open sourced is largely overestimated. Security experts say that the question is how to secure communication over an unsecure communication medium. Depending on which level you want to work, you can try to make GSM more secure because it is communicating over an inherently unsecure/open medium (electro-magnetical wave broadcast). Or you can just use what others have built into a black box (i.e. a modem with some AT commands). They promise that it is secure enough. But if you want to be really secure, just wrap the potentially unsecure channel and encrypt the data sent over it. BTW: all the recent nsa/prism things have shown that it is not sufficient to make a fully transparent (aka open sourced) terminal - if it is easy enough to tap the network nodes. Or the servers you are communicating with. I.e. securing yourself is best done if you put yourself into eremitage... So in my view, spending additional work to get an open sourced GSM or even UMTS firmware stack is a nice excercise for embedded and real time communication protocol engineering, but does not make anything more safe or secure than using a black box module, because it just tries to increase security of one small hop instead of end-to-end. In other words: security measures must be done on the highest layers of the OSI reference model, not on the lowest ones. And that is the area of the application processor and OS. And of course documented schematics help to understand if there are potential backdoors to circumvent the OS or not. So we need a device where you have control over the OS, but not necessarily over the inner workings of all peripherals. -- hns ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community I think so, too. At first, everyone is complaining about NSA/PRISM and Orwell. And then, same poeple discuss this topic on Facefuck and other social media sites, there they have to make an total data strip. It does not make sense! So, the better way is to create an phone with an free and save OS, reliable hard- and software, without spyware infected apps. I think, this can make the Moko interessting for bussiness use! One major problem for companies is, the data security (contacts, dates, ...). Most spyware apps send the data from infected phones via internet connection to the criminals/ competitors. Reaching this potential market can acquire customers, those are willing and able to pay more for an smartphone. The idea of getting an communication over GSM/ UMTS without the ability of being observed by the secret services can not be realized, because they have not to crack Your phone, they can get an link into Your communication at the next router in Your carriers network (the provider are forced by law to make this possible). So do not waste time in this idea, there are other issues to solve: - ability to use the Moko in sunlight (!) = other display (other case is required!) - reliability of hard- and software - other display, so then change to Multitouch (I do not need it really, but needed for creater market acceptance and increasing number of users) - greatest issue: marketing! (actually there is a real chance to place the Moko- idea in peoples mind: [1] so apple and co. are loosing there cool image bit by bit) - maybe, HDMI-output - working cam, not usable right now :-( (still pin striped picture) - better support for data sync (adressbook, dates, ...), not only with Google (everyone using this, should not discuss about security!) - maybe: LTE - ..[to be continued].. [1] http://www.cinema.de/film/apple-stories,5693840.html -- Regards Sebastian Reinhardt ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3
On Fri, 23 Aug 2013 13:45:20 + Bob Ham r...@settrans.net wrote: On 2013-08-23 11:27, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: Am 23.08.2013 um 13:18 schrieb Bob Ham: On 2013-08-23 10:56, Paul Wise wrote: On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 12:47 PM, Bob Ham wrote: I don't understand. What is the green light with respect to the GTA04? That was already mentioned; money for components being available. The fact that there is *no* money was mentioned. Here you seem to be implying some kind of transition from there being no money to money being available. How is that transition going to happen? What's going to cause the green light to go on? People deciding to spend some money instead of complaining that it is too expensive. We all know * there is no customer * there is no money * there is no campaign * there is no prospect * there is no website (that could attract anybody) * people on this list gave up their dream or just don't care May the last point be controversial, one has to admit that the below following thoughts are neither hard to obtain nor new. What is going to cause people to decide that? The well meaning father interrogating it's children. I don't take it as trolling, as this community is lacking exactly that kind of straight thinking. So I try to answer. First one could ask, how many people are interested in such a phone? According to the just failed campaign a lot. Second also money was not their problem, but the ridiculous threshold. Third our community watched them failing without even trying to raise awareness for our community phone. Fourth there is no nice advertising I could forward to people in my family (or anybody with money). It's just all made by and for nerds. Fifth there is some expectation in the air me to come up with a new website design. So I better stop here for the next hours to hack something which will hopefully be better than what we have. I doubt it will make the key change alone. But it's already good to have a nice and clear website with downloadable PDF to print out posters to hang out in shops/hackerspaces/cityhalls/trains or any kind of alternative shops like the ones where you get already registered ready to use SIM cards from as these are the places where people care about anonymity. Kardan -- Kardan kar...@riseup.net Encrypt your email: http://gnupg.org/documentation Public GPG key 9D6108AE58C06558 at hkp://pool.sks-keyservers.net fpr: F72F C4D9 6A52 16A1 E7C9 AE94 9D61 08AE 58C0 6558 signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3
Am 23.08.2013 um 15:45 schrieb Bob Ham: On 2013-08-23 11:27, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: Am 23.08.2013 um 13:18 schrieb Bob Ham: On 2013-08-23 10:56, Paul Wise wrote: On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 12:47 PM, Bob Ham wrote: I don't understand. What is the green light with respect to the GTA04? That was already mentioned; money for components being available. The fact that there is *no* money was mentioned. Here you seem to be implying some kind of transition from there being no money to money being available. How is that transition going to happen? What's going to cause the green light to go on? People deciding to spend some money instead of complaining that it is too expensive. What is going to cause people to decide that? What do you think the reason is? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3
On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 5:30 PM, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@goldelico.com wrote: Am 23.08.2013 um 15:45 schrieb Bob Ham: On 2013-08-23 11:27, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: Am 23.08.2013 um 13:18 schrieb Bob Ham: On 2013-08-23 10:56, Paul Wise wrote: On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 12:47 PM, Bob Ham wrote: I don't understand. What is the green light with respect to the GTA04? That was already mentioned; money for components being available. The fact that there is *no* money was mentioned. Here you seem to be implying some kind of transition from there being no money to money being available. How is that transition going to happen? What's going to cause the green light to go on? People deciding to spend some money instead of complaining that it is too expensive. What is going to cause people to decide that? What do you think the reason is? I have mixed feeling about basing our media presence on Openmoko project. While we know that Openmoko did amazing job pioneering with freeing mobile phones, and personally I'm still big fan of the project and I like how OpenPhoenux goes back to its roots, general public just associates it with failure (provided that they know what Openmoko is at the first place). We know (to some extend) what was the reason (or reasons) of Openmoko failure, they don't. They only got clear message: open/free phone is utopia, Openmoko tried it and failed, we have to go for something that's free enough and for many, Android, Ubuntu or Firefox OS phones are free enough. Especially when you add price into the account - it makes them even more enough. People should know the difference. People should know that free phone *is* possible. It may not be as free as RMS would like it to be, but seeing how many people consider Android good enough, we're still at better position. We just have to tell people what's the difference, and do that in a way even non-techie would understand (or just give him/her an impression of understanding ;)). They should be also aware why price is so high and how can it be lowered. I don't think there is some universal source we may refer people to and I'm tired of everyone repeating the same questions again and again when I mention GTA04 in slashdot comments or anywhere else. If they are not aware what GTA04 can give them, they never won't pay for it when there's such a difference in price. Well, I know it's easy to tell we should do this, we should do that and it's harder to actually start doing that, but I hope I'll be able to show you something soon. It's high time to be useful to this community once again! :) -- Sebastian Krzyszkowiak, dos http://dosowisko.net/ ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3
Hi What's going to cause the green light to go on? People deciding to spend some money instead of complaining that it is too expensive. What is going to cause people to decide that? branding. But it's already good to have a nice and clear website with downloadable PDF to print out posters What should be the message of such posters? nobody on this list can answer that. we're not *that* type of people. you need input from outside. $2c, *-pike ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3
Am 23.08.2013 um 17:05 schrieb kardan: On Fri, 23 Aug 2013 13:45:20 + Bob Ham r...@settrans.net wrote: On 2013-08-23 11:27, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: Am 23.08.2013 um 13:18 schrieb Bob Ham: On 2013-08-23 10:56, Paul Wise wrote: On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 12:47 PM, Bob Ham wrote: I don't understand. What is the green light with respect to the GTA04? That was already mentioned; money for components being available. The fact that there is *no* money was mentioned. Here you seem to be implying some kind of transition from there being no money to money being available. How is that transition going to happen? What's going to cause the green light to go on? People deciding to spend some money instead of complaining that it is too expensive. We all know * there is no customer * there is no money * there is no campaign * there is no prospect * there is no website (that could attract anybody) * people on this list gave up their dream or just don't care May the last point be controversial, one has to admit that the below following thoughts are neither hard to obtain nor new. What is going to cause people to decide that? The well meaning father interrogating it's children. I don't take it as trolling, as this community is lacking exactly that kind of straight thinking. So I try to answer. First one could ask, how many people are interested in such a phone? According to the just failed campaign a lot. I would consider 20k backers of the Ubuntu Edge not as a lot. Please calculate what 300 million smartphones (mostly iOS and Android) sold per year means to be sold per hour. That is a lot. And, the Ubuntu Edge did not have the same targets as anyone of us has. Rather, they did not even care much about openness and freedom. Their key goal is about convergence between computer and smartphone and to catch attention by Über-features. Second also money was not their problem, but the ridiculous threshold. Which threshold? The 32 million USD? Well, they have to solve the same issue that we have: building a lower number of units (which a lower threshold would imply) increases component and production cost. I.e. if they had set the limit at 12 Mio they would have had to increase the price to 795 USD. At 795 USD they would have reached 8 Mio only. So they would have had to set the price at 895 USD. etc. I don't think the threshold was just some arbitrary value. It was based on the economics inside the production process. Third our community watched them failing without even trying to raise awareness for our community phone. Well, what could we have done? How could we have changed their campain? No, I think we can only learn from the outcome of their campaign, which we are currently discussion if I remember the starting point correctly... Fourth there is no nice advertising I could forward to people in my family (or anybody with money). It's just all made by and for nerds. Because it is not a device for the general public, but nerds. You can't advertize meat to a vegetarian. Fifth there is some expectation in the air me to come up with a new website design. So I better stop here for the next hours to hack something which will hopefully be better than what we have. I doubt it will make the key change alone. But it's already good to have a nice and clear website with downloadable PDF to print out posters to hang out in shops/hackerspaces/cityhalls/trains or any kind of alternative shops like the ones where you get already registered ready to use SIM cards from as these are the places where people care about anonymity. What should be the message of such posters? -- hns ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3
Am 23.08.2013 17:05, schrieb kardan: Fifth there is some expectation in the air me to come up with a new website design. So I better stop here for the next hours to hack something which will hopefully be better than what we have. I doubt it will make the key change alone. But it's already good to have a nice and clear website with downloadable PDF to print out posters to hang out in shops/hackerspaces/cityhalls/trains or any kind of alternative shops like the ones where you get already registered ready to use SIM cards from as these are the places where people care about anonymity. Again, I'd like to out point to some website designs I did quite some time ago, maybe for others to evaluate and improve upon: GTA04 project page: http://slyon.de/gta04/index.old.php OpenPhoenux preorder/crowd-funding page: http://slyon.de/gta04/preorder.html Regards, Lukas signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3
could everybody please stop answering without checking and fixing the damn subject?! THANKS! /j -- () ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail /\ www.asciiribbon.org - against proprietary attachments (alas the above page got scrapped due to resignation(!!), so here some supplementary links:) http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil.shtml http://www.nonhtmlmail.org/campaign.html http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil_still.shtml http://www.gerstbach.at/2004/ascii/ (German) signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Building a new totally free phone
Nick openmoko-commun...@njw.me.uk wrote: Your free phone idea appeals to me enormously, Michael. Yay, one more supporter! However, can GSM really be a base for secure communication anyway? I see that after your post, the thread on the mailing list veered off into a discussion of security. But that diversion totally misses the point: it isn't so much about secure communication as it is about the Four Freedoms of software: http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html When it comes to the matters of free software philosophy, I am very much like RMS. I have a major problem with carrying a device in my pocket containing firmware for which I lack the source - not because it is a security threat, but because it's morally wrong. The only difference between me and RMS/FSF is on the matter of legalities. While I define free software in terms of exactly the same 4 freedoms as the FSF, RMS and the conventional free sw camp add an additional condition that these 4 freedoms be exercised legally - whereas I add no such extra clause: whether it's legally free or illegally free, it's still free software to me. There also are some practical considerations that affect only feature phones and not smartphones. I have yet to encounter a phone UI design that doesn't suck, and I hope that most people on this list will agree with me that being able to customize the UI to one's preferences is an essential freedom that a geeky, empowered phone user should have - and I mean *really* customize the UI, not just twiddle menu settings, but being able to study, modify or even totally rewrite the UI code. Smartphones have a separate application processor to run the UI, so you can indeed play with the UI on Linux to your heart's content while keeping the modem as a black box. But this approach does not work for a feature phone where the UI and the modem are tightly integrated into a single whole. Exercising full freedom over the UI code in a feature phone requires having a complete and rebuildable source for the firmware suite as a whole. (Having the GSM stack pieces as binary objects to be linked with the UI source would work too, but then one gets tied to a proprietary compiler toolchain, etc. In any case we already have full source for the GSM stack thanks to the TSM30 and LoCosto leaks, so it's a solved problem now.) Now look at the situation from the perspective of a user who does NOT want his or her phone to be anything other than a plain phone. For such a user, a non-smart feature phone ought to be ideal, but if the user also wants the freedom to fully own the UI design, s/he currently has to pay for an otherwise completely unnecessary application processor. And when I say pay for, I'm *not* referring to the purchase price of the device - I would gladly pay a lot more for my ideal Free Dumb Phone than the most expensive GTA04 or Ubuntu Edge or whatever. Instead I mean pay for in terms of carrying extra weight, extra power consumption, extra system complexity otherwise unneeded, many additional points of failure, etc. *That* is what I seek to rectify with my Free Dumb Phone project, aside from the moral issue. Freedom is a right that all phone users should enjoy, not a privilege that's limited to just Linux smartphones to the exclusion of non-smart feature phones. I've heard that the encryption used is really crappy, and while some things like MITM forced reregistration to disable encryption and ease surveillance could be countered by appropriate phone settings, if the best encryption algorithm available can be cracked by a home PC in a few days, you're still screwed. The GSM encryption is a red herring - it makes absolutely no difference whether it's there or not. Imagine if the GSM encryption were perfect and unbreakable - what would change? Nothing. The over-the-air encryption is only between the mobile station and the network. In a public phone network, where you can dial the phone number of any stranger and hear each other's voices if the other party answers, encryption can't be end-to-end. The network has to be able to decrypt with one end's key and re-encrypt with a different key for the other end, so the network itself has (and must have) access to the cleartext form of your digitized voice. If I am the world's most wanted criminal and enemy #1 of all major governments, and they want to spy on my phone conversations, they aren't going to bother with cracking GSM over-the-air encryption, they'll just put in a lawful intercept at the switch. The only way to render all lawful intercept mechanisms ineffective is to use end-to-end encryption. That won't work when calling strangers, or calling the transit line to check bus/train schedules etc, but it's a very feasible mechanism for private and secure communication mechanism among family members, friends etc. Here in USA we have one advantage over the EU etc lands where most people on this list seem to be located: CSD (circuit-switched
Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone
I don't think money is the only problem. the missing money is just the indicator for this project's failure to create sufficient public interest or even awareness. while the GTA01/2 was a nice idea, it was already slightly outdated when it appeared -- and since then nothing has changed, the gap between what's considered standard and what the GTAxx is prepared to deliver rather has widened. to get even close to standard (and thus being a realistic alternative for smartphone users), the project would need backing of a far more potent entity than this tiny community is -- both money- and publicitywise. since the GTA02 i spend about 2000€ on this project, maybe more (well, i can afford it and it was worth supporting the idea behind it), and in my very personal and subjective opinion, the GTA04 has been a huge disappointment. i wouldn't spend the equivalent of a highend, state-of-art smartphone or even tablet just to buy yet another even more outdated device, free or not. compared to the shortcomings of the GTA04, even complete freedom is not sufficient to justify that amount of money. whenever i told somebody who had heard of OpenMoko that there's a successor, they were surprised -- and when i told them the features and the price, i got an incredulous grin and the question if someone really believed that people would spend that amount for such a device. i am still undecided if i should admire or pity the thread starter, if he honestly believed that this community would be able to succeed where ubuntu failed -- and on top of that to jump from todays GTA04 to the device as imagined by ubuntu ... all things considered, the realistic path is imo to cater to a tiny niche of institutional customers -- like jörg(?) proposed. while i am personally rather fond of the original GTA01 case (and think that's almost the only tangible unique feature), i, too, would prefer it to pick up where the n900 left. maybe then it could even tap into the pool of still active n900 fans ... ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3
On Fri, 2013-08-23 at 17:30 +0200, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
Am 23.08.2013 um 15:45 schrieb Bob Ham:
On 2013-08-23 11:27, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
Am 23.08.2013 um 13:18 schrieb Bob Ham:
On 2013-08-23 10:56, Paul Wise wrote:
On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 12:47 PM, Bob Ham wrote:
I don't understand. What is the green light with respect to the GTA04?
That was already mentioned; money for components being available.
The fact that there is *no* money was mentioned. Here you seem to be
implying some kind of transition from there being no money to money being
available. How is that transition going to happen? What's going to
cause the green light to go on?
People deciding to spend some money instead of complaining that it is
too expensive.
What is going to cause people to decide that?
What do you think the reason is?
I can't see anything that people will cause people to make that
decision. This is why I'm wondering what cause *you* see. You said
you're waiting. What do you believe is going to happen? What are you
waiting *for*? What is going to occur that will cause people to decide
to spend money on the GTA04?
I can't see any reason. A train stopped at a disconnected signal light
waiting for it to go green, doesn't make any sense to me.
--
Bob Ham r...@settrans.net
for (;;) { ++pancakes; }
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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone
On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 1:21 PM, arne anka openm...@ginguppin.de wrote: i am still undecided if i should admire or pity the thread starter, if he honestly believed that this community would be able to succeed where ubuntu failed -- and on top of that to jump from todays GTA04 to the device as imagined by ubuntu ... Go with admire. :) I'm not saying we'd succeed, I'm just suggesting that we could do with failing the way Ubuntu did. By putting out a bold idea, Ubuntu moved the idea of an open source phone forward from the standard it's gotta be Android mentality, spurred themselves to innovate, and proved there was a demand for something else. Of course, what that something else is is different for everybody, but we don't have to please everyone. Our community's niche is not in being the most whizbang or the cheapest or the prettiest. I believe the folks in this community have the ability to offer the only free-as-in-freedom phone/computer and that's worth something. Not to everybody, but to some percent. Ubuntu's failure included over 5000 orders for units at $700 each. Could we have 5% as much fail as Ubuntu? Yes. But we'd need to get the word out and I'm just suggesting now might be a good time, while people are still wondering what to do with that extra $700 PayPal just refunded to them. :) —Ben ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Building a new totally free phone
On Fri 23 August 2013 21:07:14 Michael Spacefalcon wrote: I would be very happy to have a really free modem firmware on my GTA02 in the meantime. Then maybe you should try talking some sense into Joerg etc - maybe they'll listen to you more than they are willing to listen to me. I wonder how a single brain can produce that much nonsense and be that dull. You seem a smart guy otherwise, so I really don't grok how you can be so weird in this single issue. I told you everybody who been interested - except you - got access to the sources you're so terribly _not_ wanting (I wonder what now. Do you need them or not? And if you do, then for what since you already got the full radio stack which OM never had, and you're not interested in the AT interpreter of GTA0x modem but rather in any UI which obviously OM also never had). Everybody except you since I don't give access to stuff that's under NDA to a guy who's calling OM a bunch of rogue idiots and threatening to shoot me. Also you clearly say you're not asking for me handing that stuff to you (verbatim, see your prev mail) , you want me to PUBLISH it under my full name and stating loud that I don't give a flying F about the NDA contracts I'm under, thus ruining my professional career just to meet your idea of how industry and FOSS and community and the world at large works or should or ought work. Grow up, dude! You're biting the hand that feeds you, like a rabid dog. Won't happen (again, recall glamo?). You're seriously blaming OM and its employees for not violating the agreements they had to sign (and believe me, we tried hard to avoid signing any such agreements, since OM was planned to be as open as feasible), to make the whole project possible? I honestly wonder what kind of mater is inside your skull. YOU are not even worth this lengthy answer, and nobody else got the problem YOU have with OM calypso firmware sources, since everybody else asking kindly had access to all the stuff since 2011, and nobody found it worth doing much leaking about it. Since in some regard, the calypso firmware *is* OSS, it's just not FOSS. Get that! Wrap your head around it. And stop throwing darts at my picture at your wall, you honestly need to find a new and better reason for living. Good bye! /j [ps: trying hard to not elaborate on a guy like you talking about morally correct behaviour, and about the paradox you're exposing there in just 2 sentences] -- () ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail /\ www.asciiribbon.org - against proprietary attachments (alas the above page got scrapped due to resignation(!!), so here some supplementary links:) http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil.shtml http://www.nonhtmlmail.org/campaign.html http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil_still.shtml http://www.gerstbach.at/2004/ascii/ (German) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3
On Fri 23 August 2013 22:45:05 Bob Ham wrote: I can't see anything that people will cause people to make that decision. This is why I'm wondering what cause *you* see. You said you're waiting. What do you believe is going to happen? What are you waiting *for*? What is going to occur that will cause people to decide to spend money on the GTA04? I can't see any reason. A train stopped at a disconnected signal light waiting for it to go green, doesn't make any sense to me. So WHAT? What's your point??? Waiting is a sustainable and valid state. When you can't see any reason then why do you insist in any sort of answer from somebody else? I don't think we owe you something. Can't you finally come up with some *suggestions* or - even better - real actions that would help? Instead you perpetuate this moot arguing about if there's sth that can be done or if it's reasonable or even allowable to *wait* for 200 preorders, instead of simply declaring the whole thing out of production or discontinued as you seem to insist it is. /j -- () ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail /\ www.asciiribbon.org - against proprietary attachments (alas the above page got scrapped due to resignation(!!), so here some supplementary links:) http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil.shtml http://www.nonhtmlmail.org/campaign.html http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil_still.shtml http://www.gerstbach.at/2004/ascii/ (German) signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: SIM card backup
Four years ago this worked for getting data from a SIM card: http://www.mail-archive.com/community@lists.openmoko.org/msg55862.html qtmoko SMS messages are saved in an sqlite3 file under Applications/qtopiamail/ On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:22 PM, Алексей fl...@member.fsf.org wrote: 1) How may I backup and restore all the data including sms messages and phonebook from a sim card? 2) How to backup qtmoko sms messages and phonebook? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3
On the Road --- hns Am 23.08.2013 um 22:45 schrieb Bob Ham r...@settrans.net: On Fri, 2013-08-23 at 17:30 +0200, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: Am 23.08.2013 um 15:45 schrieb Bob Ham: On 2013-08-23 11:27, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: Am 23.08.2013 um 13:18 schrieb Bob Ham: On 2013-08-23 10:56, Paul Wise wrote: On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 12:47 PM, Bob Ham wrote: I don't understand. What is the green light with respect to the GTA04? That was already mentioned; money for components being available. The fact that there is *no* money was mentioned. Here you seem to be implying some kind of transition from there being no money to money being available. How is that transition going to happen? What's going to cause the green light to go on? People deciding to spend some money instead of complaining that it is too expensive. What is going to cause people to decide that? What do you think the reason is? I can't see anything that people will cause people to make that decision. This is why I'm wondering what cause *you* see. You said you're waiting. What do you believe is going to happen? What are you waiting *for*? What is going to occur that will cause people to decide to spend money on the GTA04? I can't see any reason. A train stopped at a disconnected signal light waiting for it to go green, doesn't make any sense to me. Why are you still a member of this community and participating in this discussion? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re. Building a totally new smart phone
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 I would like to add my vote to the proposal of a totally new non-smart phone. A recent article in 'The Futurist' has flagged the demise of the current model of the 'smartphone' in favour of less intrusive devices such as glasses and watches. http://www.wfs.org/futurist/2013-issues-futurist/september-october-2013-vol-47-no-5/top-10-disappearing-futures/disap-7 I have not been able to find working links to freecalypso-sw anywhere. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calypso_Technology I think there is increasing demand for a secure non-smart phone. Good luck, Adam. - -- Adam Bogacki adam.boga...@clear.net.nz http://www.independent.academia.edu/AdamBogacki -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.14 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Icedove - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJSF/iOAAoJELXBCnrK+Nj6ViAH/3Cu4kB1DBunLIL82JCwhRoi KGXPrK6+ycIl6ime6wFkZdm5A3kSJgV1ZRkYKcbhcWbEFYb913tcgDFCqJlUUWd7 tmjXffh1K6ueXV70blSUHhakHp/LMy9vx27Pn/wmNOr79UauqAvKTrCJqY2v88QR nVNpwIlSDk5lIVe0PUgeMFi8e4JhTicsxSrAI7/2h18MwQmEKmk4qbs7wERcCVCa GeSMoDQgxgiS8D3lTJVuHBKJr2H3v8BbLL+jhB+V4BzVeQ80actmua/O2KAUEOjz R0RIcgo+DQvRZbcGlnT1VtxAjMjqt/jEv9FdmBnhRDPmINbJCsgQdj6CtMGYQEs= =QVKc -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Releasing GTA04 hardware source files (was: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3)
On Sat, 2013-08-24 at 00:20 +0200, joerg Reisenweber wrote:
Can't you finally come up with some *suggestions* or - even
better - real actions that would help?
At present the community is beholden to a particular company which
produces something the community depends on. That company has a
monopoly on production within the community. It does not share the
source files for its work and does not allow others to contribute to
designs.
This is the same situation as a community that is beholden to a company
producing proprietary software. The GTA04 is like proprietary hardware.
We have schematics in a .pdf file but nothing else. There is no shared
repository containing the source files for the schematics or the PCB
designs. Nobody can commit design fixes. The community is not
iterating the GTA04 design. The community is not working together to
create a free phone. Instead, all we do is discuss and argue about one
company's product.
A lot of people have come up with various ideas for modifications to the
GTA04. Some of them simply require some soldering which is no problem.
However, some require a redesign of the board. To my recollection,
nobody has ever pointed out that this isn't possible unless Golden
Delicious do it. The fact that only Golden Delicious can do it is bad.
Despite describing the GTA04 as Open Hardware¹ and stating that the
aims of the community are for DIY hardware², Golden Delicious does not
release any source files for the hardware it produces. There is no
community of hardware hackers contributing to shared PCB designs.
I suggest that the community changes from consuming hardware designed
and built by a single controlling entity to producing one or more Open
Source Hardware³ phone designs which can be taken as a base, modified
and manufactured by any party. For example, a board design could be
used in the same fashion as the GTA04, as a replacement for GTA01/02
boards but could also be modified by the N900 community to provide an
updated board for their phone.
I suggest that Golden Delicious release the source files for the GTA04
board in order to assist this effort and act as a base for the first
community phone design.
¹ http://www.openphoenux.org/
² http://lists.goldelico.com/pipermail/community/2013-May/000324.html
³ http://www.ohanda.org/
--
Bob Ham r...@settrans.net
for (;;) { ++pancakes; }
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Re: Re. Building a totally new smart phone
On Sat 24 August 2013 02:04:45 Adam Bogacki wrote: I would like to add my vote to the proposal of a totally new non-smart phone. [...] I think there is increasing demand for a secure non-smart phone. There IS NO secure phone! See any of the dozen other mails in this very thread about that topic. Or rather, there's not even any insecure phone - means you can't make it more secure by reviewing the firmware of the modem, since there IS NOTHING insecure in the firmware. It's not like you could kick out any rogue hidden backdoors since there aren't any, I won't elaborate again why that's evident. There are also no flaws in any security related encryptions or whatever that you could fix in the phone firmware, since those flaws (if any relevant) exist in the protocol spec and you need to fix both ends, mobile and BTS. And this still leaves all the other vulnerabilities of all public networks which always allow eavesdropping on a multitude of levels not under the control of the phone's firmware. Increasing demand for secure phone? I offer the only solution: adjust your habits, improve your knowledge. The phone is as secure as the user who operates it. /j -- () ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail /\ www.asciiribbon.org - against proprietary attachments (alas the above page got scrapped due to resignation(!!), so here some supplementary links:) http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil.shtml http://www.nonhtmlmail.org/campaign.html http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil_still.shtml http://www.gerstbach.at/2004/ascii/ (German) signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Releasing GTA04 hardware source files (was: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3)
On Sat 24 August 2013 02:10:55 Bob Ham wrote: On Sat, 2013-08-24 at 00:20 +0200, joerg Reisenweber wrote: Can't you finally come up with some *suggestions* or - even better - real actions that would help? At present the community is beholden to a particular company which produces something the community depends on. That company has a monopoly on production within the community. It does not share the source files for its work and does not allow others to contribute to designs. stopped reading here, since obvious BS. Get your facts sorted! Stop spamming! /j -- () ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail /\ www.asciiribbon.org - against proprietary attachments (alas the above page got scrapped due to resignation(!!), so here some supplementary links:) http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil.shtml http://www.nonhtmlmail.org/campaign.html http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil_still.shtml http://www.gerstbach.at/2004/ascii/ (German) signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re. Building a totally new smart phone
Adam Bogacki adam.boga...@clear.net.nz wrote: I have not been able to find working links to freecalypso-sw anywhere. Not able to find *working* links? So the link I had posted earlier in this thread: ftp://ftp.ifctf.org/pub/GSM/FreeCalypso/snapshots/freecalypso-sw-SE52Fru5.tar.bz2 is not working for you? There is also a Mercurial source repository where the development takes place: https://bitbucket.org/falconian/freecalypso-sw But if it gets taken down because some suppressive person reports it, don't blame me. Of course Mercurial is a distributed SCM just like git, hence even if bitbucket.org takes it down, no source or history will be lost - but it will make the project inaccessible to others (except via the occasional snapshots which I post on my FTP site) until we (the FreeCalypso community, currently consisting of one developer and a few supporters watching from the sidelines) find a new Hg webhost. VLR, SF ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Re. Building a totally new smart phone
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 .. the ftp*bz2 link works and I have unpacked it. Now that I have dir 'freecalypso-sw-SE52Fru5' I am not quite sure what to do. Is there some documentation available, or a man page ? Searching by 'calypso' or 'freecalypso' did not show anything relevant when using 'www.deeperweb.com' Regards, Adam. On 24/08/13 13:28, Michael Spacefalcon wrote: Adam Bogacki adam.boga...@clear.net.nz wrote: I have not been able to find working links to freecalypso-sw anywhere. Not able to find *working* links? So the link I had posted earlier in this thread: ftp://ftp.ifctf.org/pub/GSM/FreeCalypso/snapshots/freecalypso-sw-SE52Fru5.tar.bz2 is not working for you? There is also a Mercurial source repository where the development takes place: https://bitbucket.org/falconian/freecalypso-sw But if it gets taken down because some suppressive person reports it, don't blame me. Of course Mercurial is a distributed SCM just like git, hence even if bitbucket.org takes it down, no source or history will be lost - but it will make the project inaccessible to others (except via the occasional snapshots which I post on my FTP site) until we (the FreeCalypso community, currently consisting of one developer and a few supporters watching from the sidelines) find a new Hg webhost. VLR, SF - -- Adam Bogacki adam.boga...@clear.net.nz http://www.independent.academia.edu/AdamBogacki -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.14 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Icedove - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJSGBzLAAoJELXBCnrK+Nj6J8IH/2jz92N6LSLRGk/UNv9fxO/F BdSVqjfssAwGkRyP47B0lsgFjBBLS+1hDbR1egeBHhbjNkB2mz2JqC7Z7ysnzCTJ 7uZbt3ey0FFEAM5o/gr2KJRkBknqawdUC/yLgweX5mUTpbbjvwj3tBYYFK0eWV9h lOFtI3Lo1pAfuHIyzhe8ctTC8QCrKsHb5SRcKzOZ8x/qqf7Y+o8TBYcBIQRbcVqL oPUmTNxQzN3ZgJVA6zfhUdC3FGbiip6Ktv+2vLLjwEJ/hJabHK5oCwy5yKDtj5kI ERM2Hj2tWZPCIsNaukBMac5FIdDNcwtFBITsWletKLA3jo4/a0/mmdJgrXreE6Q= =6s6W -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Re. Building a totally new smart phone
Adam Bogacki adam.boga...@clear.net.nz wrote: Now that I have dir 'freecalypso-sw-SE52Fru5' I am not quite sure what to do. Is there some documentation available, or a man page ? No documentation has been written yet, because there is nothing to document yet: all that's there is a FreeNucleus RTOS skeleton and some host tools for pushing code images to the Calypso. See my earlier posts in this thread for my planned roadmap of adding meat to this skeleton. The FreeCalypso project is still in a very early stage - most projects aren't even announced at all when they are this early in the development process. The only reason why I'm releasing this code at all is to satisfy the moral requirement: on my planet it is a crime to have some ware and not share it, no matter what the ware is. If you want to play with the current code just for fun (there isn't anything more that you would be able to do with it), you should be able to at least compile it, and if you have one of the two supported phone models (DP-L10 or GTA02), even run it and see the serial output from the FreeNucleus demo app. The steps are: 1. Build and install the arm-elf cross-compile toolchain. Look in the toolchain directory and it should be obvious. 2. Using that toolchain, compile the target-utils part. (Just run make in the target-utils subdir with the toolchain in your PATH.) You'll get the loadagent.srec image. 3. Compile loadtools - again, just run make in the corresponding directory. These are host tools, so they need to run on whatever Unix/Linux machine you'll be using to push code to the Calypso. If you are doing this with a Pirelli phone, FreeCalypso loadtools need to run on your PC/desktop/laptop. If you are playing with a GTA02 instead, you will need to either make a special cable to get to the Calypso via the headphone jack, or build loadtools to run on the GTA02 AP. 4. Once you've got loadtools, loadagent.srec and a compatible Calypso phone, you can actually try running this stuff. If you have successfully passed steps 1 through 3, but are having difficulties with this step, ask and I'll help you. If you are still struggling with one of the previous steps, work on that first. A command like this (from a laptop with a Pirelli DP-L10 phone connected and showing up as /dev/ttyUSB0): fc-loadtool -h pirelli /dev/ttyUSB0 or like this (from the GTA02 AP, talking to the Calypso part of the same phone): fc-loadtool -h gta02 /dev/ttySAC0 should produce output that looks like this: Sending beacons to /dev/ttyUSB0 Got beacon response, attempting download p command successful, switching to 115200 baud Sending image payload [a long line of dots]Sending checksum c command successful, sending b b command successful: downloaded image should now be running! FreeCalypso loadagent running Loaded via UART 1 (IrDA) at baud rate #0 TCXO clock input autodetected to be 26 MHz Executing init script pirelli.init Script command: w16 fb00 00A4 Script command: w16 fb02 00A4 Script command: w16 fb06 00A4 Script command: w16 fffef006 0008 loadtool The 3 lines beginning with FreeCalypso loadagent running will be printed by code running on the Calypso chip itself, which you would have built in step 2. Once you are at the loadtool prompt, you are interacting with the host utility you would have built in step 3, which is in turn communicating over a serial channel with loadagent.srec running on the Calypso. Loadtool has commands for things like peeking and poking registers, dumping and programming flash, etc. But right now the only documentation is the source code. Type exit, quit or ^D when you are done - it'll reboot the Pirelli phone or power off the GTA02 GSM modem. 5. The Nucleus-based skeleton for what is meant to become the main GSM firmware lives in the nuc-fw directory. You can build it as soon as you've got the arm-elf toolchain from step 1. Unlike loadagent, which is meant to remain universal for all Calypso phones (just like TI's FLUID), the main firmware obviously has to be configured for a specific target. The snapshot you are looking at has the beginnings of the configuration mechanism, but the latter doesn't do anything yet. For now all that's there is the Nucleus demo, and it happens to be the same for all phones, so just type make in the nuc-fw directory with the toolchain from step 1 in your PATH. You'll get ramImage.srec, which you can run on your Calypso phone with the fc-xram utility: fc-xram -h pirelli /dev/ttyUSB0 ramImage.srec If you are doing this with a Pirelli DP-L10, you should see the output from the demo app pouring on your terminal when you run the above command. Type ^\ to kill the fc-xram process on your host, but to stop the demo app running on the phone and make the phone usable again, you'll have to pull the battery and put it back in. (And then reset the clock, as this phone doesn't have a separate RTC
