Re: [Gta04-owner] [ANN] GTA04 Keyboard prototype
Hi, Am 11.05.2012 um 21:02 schrieb Lionel Broche: A couple of quick questions about the keyboard prototype: - is this a flexible PCB? Or could it be printed on a flexible substrate so that surface can be bent? The prototype [1] is a 1mm FR4 PCB because pressing the buttons needs a quite stiff counterpart. Bending should be possible, but keep in mind that the buttons we use have 4 solder joints at the corners. I don't know how easily they break when bending the PCB. But if you glue the bent PCB on a rounded stiff substrate it could work well. You could try a company like Leiton (they have an online shop for such flex PCBs): http://www.leiton.de/flex-pcb.html - what are the dimensions of the PCB? how thick should the whole keyboard be with the buttons included? The dimensions are following the current battery cover. I.e. it is 50x109 mm. The radius of the ears is 25mm. I.e. you can think of a 50x59 mm rectangle with two 25mm radius half-circles. But this is just the prototype and making a different keyboard PCB should not be a major challenge... The thickness is 1mm for the PCB and the buttons are Panasonic EVQPQ series (because they are easily available @ DigiKey): http://industrial.panasonic.com/www-data/pdf/ATK/ATKCE1.pdf Thickness is 0.55 mm. I.e. the total thickness is 1.55mm + any mechanics from housing. Hope this answers some questions... Nikolaus [1]: http://www.handheld-linux.com/wiki.php?page=GTA04%3AKeyboard ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [Gta04-owner] [ANN] GTA04 Keyboard prototype
A couple of quick questions about the keyboard prototype: - is this a flexible PCB? Or could it be printed on a flexible substrate so that surface can be bent? - what are the dimensions of the PCB? how thick should the whole keyboard be with the buttons included? Lionel ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [Gta04-owner] [ANN] GTA04 Keyboard prototype
On Monday 07 May 2012 15:44:00 Matthias Apitz wrote: El día Monday, May 07, 2012 a las 03:31:11PM +0200, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller escribió: The idea is that the keyboard is integrated in the back battery cover. And if you remove it, both parts (main body and battery cover/keyboard) are connected through a small ribbon cable. I.e. you remove the keyboard, fold it by 180 degrees so that the keys show in the same direction as the display and you can us the display in landscape format. If that works out with the snap mechanism of the battery cover and/or if it needs some physical connection between both parts has to be worked out. I don't want to be negative (just reaistic), the list of disadvantages of such a solution (keyboard in battery cover, or with hinge) is: (..non-exhaustive...) ;-) 1) works only on desktop or table surface, i.e. not while walking or standing; I think we would (indeed) snap it to the body, and not fold it by 180 degrees, but more 250-ish. It would actually exclude usage on a surface, because the keyboard (+battery?) is too light to balance the phone without pressing it to that surface. 2) open the battery cover many more times (as for hard reset with battery lift) will break the case soon; While we're at it, we have to do some redesign at the case anyway, there might be place for a switch between the battery and the contact points. 3) you are forced to use landscape applications, while most of the apps today are in portait; That is, in many cases, for lacking a hardware keyboard. A browser window of 480x480 + 160x480 for the keyboard is often more handy than a larger keyboard of 160x640 and 320x640 left over for the application. (I'm not counting top bars and maybe a status bar, which indeed take more space in landscape than in portrait). Lacking reliable rotation on Freerunner, I must admit I have not often used applications in landscape; I remember some coping well, others not adjusting to the wider screen. 4) perhaps your battery will fall out (if not secured with something) in a lot of cases, esp. if it is the most important situation :-) ..cases, no pun intended? ;-) I guess we can come up with this securing something for the battery as well. Some cavity the battery slides into, or integration into the key module. to be continued... Yeah! Indeed ;-) With some luck, I'll have access (in a couple of months) to a 3d printer and can experiment with cases. To be continued... Boudewijn smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [Gta04-owner] [ANN] GTA04 Keyboard prototype
:) nice, thanks! ok, I'll make something serious then, see if this attracts the community. I'llstart another topic once I have the first draft ready. Lionel On 7 May 2012 13:17, joa...@verona.se wrote: Lionel Broche lionel.bro...@gmail.com writes: Hello, I have been thinking for a while to try a forearm-mounting casing for the openmoko. A casing that you would clip on the left (or right) forearm, that would be thin enough to fit under the sleeves or even covered with a piece of nice fabric to look like a cloth. This keyboard would probably fit well on the forearm together with the screen and it would make the whole thing easier to use. I am also thinking to place the antenna on the outside of the arm, above a piece of aluminum foil in order to reflect the radiated power and to protect the user from RF field. At the moment I don't have the GTA04, but I can make some rough drawings from the CAD files (I will need to download them). Would there be other people interested in this new way of carring your phone? I previously had some positive comments on the forum about this, so I think we could probably start a small group if there is enough interest. I'm also very interested in making a wearable out of the gta04, and I'd buy your design to sponsor its development if it were available. About the announcement itself, I think it is always good to show new ideas at early stages. This makes it possible for the community to orient the development of the project if they see better/different ways to use it. It also shows the level of interest. Lionel On 3 May 2012 09:41, Nikita V. Youshchenko yo...@debian.org wrote: Some more general thought: I am not sure how we should handle such ideas and how this community sees its role. Should we announce/publish immediately as soon as we have a prototype? And ask the community for comments and participation in improving it? Or should we silently finish some design and work with beta testers not on this list... From external point of view, having more information about what is going on is definitly better. However, it is you who is actually doing things, it's up to you to decide if to show your eraly prototypes and collect feedback or not. Nikita ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Joakim Verona ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [Gta04-owner] [ANN] GTA04 Keyboard prototype
Lionel Broche lionel.bro...@gmail.com writes: Hello, I have been thinking for a while to try a forearm-mounting casing for the openmoko. A casing that you would clip on the left (or right) forearm, that would be thin enough to fit under the sleeves or even covered with a piece of nice fabric to look like a cloth. This keyboard would probably fit well on the forearm together with the screen and it would make the whole thing easier to use. I am also thinking to place the antenna on the outside of the arm, above a piece of aluminum foil in order to reflect the radiated power and to protect the user from RF field. At the moment I don't have the GTA04, but I can make some rough drawings from the CAD files (I will need to download them). Would there be other people interested in this new way of carring your phone? I previously had some positive comments on the forum about this, so I think we could probably start a small group if there is enough interest. I'm also very interested in making a wearable out of the gta04, and I'd buy your design to sponsor its development if it were available. About the announcement itself, I think it is always good to show new ideas at early stages. This makes it possible for the community to orient the development of the project if they see better/different ways to use it. It also shows the level of interest. Lionel On 3 May 2012 09:41, Nikita V. Youshchenko yo...@debian.org wrote: Some more general thought: I am not sure how we should handle such ideas and how this community sees its role. Should we announce/publish immediately as soon as we have a prototype? And ask the community for comments and participation in improving it? Or should we silently finish some design and work with beta testers not on this list... From external point of view, having more information about what is going on is definitly better. However, it is you who is actually doing things, it's up to you to decide if to show your eraly prototypes and collect feedback or not. Nikita ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Joakim Verona ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [Gta04-owner] [ANN] GTA04 Keyboard prototype
Am 07.05.2012 um 08:47 schrieb Butrus Damaskus: On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 10:26 AM, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@goldelico.com wrote: Am 03.05.2012 um 10:03 schrieb Butrus Damaskus: Very interresting, but I'm a little bit puzzled as how it should work in the real life... That is a task for further study and optimization. We have just built one unit and we need some 3D printed cases to do a better evaluation. Ok, so let's start discuss that ;-). My question was if you foresee the keyboard to be detachable somehow (than placing it on the rear side of OpenMoko would make sense) or whether there would be some mechanism to open the keyboard. Otherwise I cannot understand how the keboard on the backside would be used... The idea is that the keyboard is integrated in the back battery cover. And if you remove it, both parts (main body and battery cover/keyboard) are connected through a small ribbon cable. I.e. you remove the keyboard, fold it by 180 degrees so that the keys show in the same direction as the display and you can us the display in landscape format. If that works out with the snap mechanism of the battery cover and/or if it needs some physical connection between both parts has to be worked out. A complete alternative could be a battery cover with a hinge. Like this sketch: http://download.goldelico.com/gta04/images/Scan-120507143506.jpeg Your phantasy and creativity is asked for... Some more general thought: I am not sure how we should handle such ideas and how this community sees its role. Should we announce/publish immediately as soon as we have a prototype? Yes, please ;-) And ask the community for comments and participation in improving it? I would say yes :) Or should we silently finish some design and work with beta testers not on this list... I think this is a fundamental difference to open software development. There we can have a stable, a testing and an experimental branch and everyone can download the one he/she likes. With hardware we have to build physical protoypes and make experiments (which are not for free) to find out what a good solution is. Nikolaus On Tue, May 1, 2012 at 6:06 PM, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@goldelico.com wrote: Hi, we have developed a prototype for a 80 button QWERTY keyboard PCB that could eventually be connected/integrated into the GTA04. It should fit into a specially designed battery cover so that you can easily stow it away if not needed. Such battery covers could be produced individually through 3D printing solving the issue of manageing and stocking 20 different key layouts. But watch yourself how we think it can look like: http://youtu.be/WM94%5fR5eKcc There is also a new video showing a comparison with some other keyboards: http://youtu.be/wGASnE1zGh4 Pleas tell us if you like this idea and what you would like to pay for such an extension unit through the Wishlist function of our shop: http://www.handheld-linux.com/wiki.php?page=GTA04%3AKeyboard Two issues are still to be developed: a) how to reliably connect it to the GTA04 PCB (soldering copper wires or a FFCs is a little difficult so it should have a tiny, flexible but robust B2B cable). Maybe, we can use a micro-USB socket or similar (we need to connect 6 wires). This may also need a redesign of the GTA04 board (for a nice plug) b) design a 3D printable case with key-caps that is robust enough If you want to support us for developing this idea, please give us a kickstart donation. Nikolaus PS: the keyboard driver for the TCA8418 is already part of Linux 3.3 - and has been backported to the 2.6.32-kernel. This has been tested to work on a BeagleBoard XM. http://git.goldelico.com/?p=gta04-kernel.git;a=commit;h=f19d5c430458bbce8955bc9e04dd161f6a80347d It just needs platform data in the board file: http://git.goldelico.com/?p=gta04-kernel.git;a=blobdiff;f=arch/arm/mach-omap2/board-omap3gta04.c;h=8a7e4b0803920f635e7101bfbd5a60b6b84b1107;hp=3e49efef2de0b42cd419a46a9cd45448fd04a44c;hb=4b2de3db742abce9212c1af2cc576e2a3a64b0d9;hpb=1d7c6b5f043661621ec374d96c3c4a4454f9bb7b ___ Gta04-owner mailing list gta04-ow...@goldelico.com http://lists.goldelico.com/mailman/listinfo/gta04-owner ___ Gta04-owner mailing list gta04-ow...@goldelico.com http://lists.goldelico.com/mailman/listinfo/gta04-owner ___ Gta04-owner mailing list gta04-ow...@goldelico.com http://lists.goldelico.com/mailman/listinfo/gta04-owner ___ Gta04-owner mailing list gta04-ow...@goldelico.com http://lists.goldelico.com/mailman/listinfo/gta04-owner ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org
Re: [Gta04-owner] [ANN] GTA04 Keyboard prototype
El día Monday, May 07, 2012 a las 03:31:11PM +0200, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller escribió: The idea is that the keyboard is integrated in the back battery cover. And if you remove it, both parts (main body and battery cover/keyboard) are connected through a small ribbon cable. I.e. you remove the keyboard, fold it by 180 degrees so that the keys show in the same direction as the display and you can us the display in landscape format. If that works out with the snap mechanism of the battery cover and/or if it needs some physical connection between both parts has to be worked out. I don't want to be negative (just reaistic), the list of disadvantages of such a solution (keyboard in battery cover, or with hinge) is: 1) works only on desktop or table surface, i.e. not while walking or standing; 2) open the battery cover many more times (as for hard reset with battery lift) will break the case soon; 3) you are forced to use landscape applications, while most of the apps today are in portait; 4) perhaps your battery will fall out (if not secured with something) in a lot of cases, esp. if it is the most important situation :-) to be continued... matthias -- Matthias Apitz e g...@unixarea.de - w http://www.unixarea.de/ UNIX since V7 on PDP-11, UNIX on mainframe since ESER 1055 (IBM /370) UNIX on x86 since SVR4.2 UnixWare 2.1.2, FreeBSD since 2.2.5 ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [Gta04-owner] [ANN] GTA04 Keyboard prototype
On Monday 07 May 2012 15:44:00 Matthias Apitz wrote: El día Monday, May 07, 2012 a las 03:31:11PM +0200, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller escribió: The idea is that the keyboard is integrated in the back battery cover. And if you remove it, both parts (main body and battery cover/keyboard) are connected through a small ribbon cable. I.e. you remove the keyboard, fold it by 180 degrees so that the keys show in the same direction as the display and you can us the display in landscape format. If that works out with the snap mechanism of the battery cover and/or if it needs some physical connection between both parts has to be worked out. I don't want to be negative (just reaistic), the list of disadvantages of such a solution (keyboard in battery cover, or with hinge) is: 1) works only on desktop or table surface, i.e. not while walking or standing; 2) open the battery cover many more times (as for hard reset with battery lift) will break the case soon; 3) you are forced to use landscape applications, while most of the apps today are in portait; 4) perhaps your battery will fall out (if not secured with something) in a lot of cases, esp. if it is the most important situation :-) to be continued... matthias If thinking out loud is allowed... If you move the battery inside the keyboard part and make the hinge a bit bigger, you could use it as a screen protector if you fold the keyboard in front of the display. And if you fold it the otherway, it could fit in what currently is the battery area. Just my 2 cents.. Kind regards, Ed___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [Gta04-owner] [ANN] GTA04 Keyboard prototype
On Monday 07 May 2012 13:31:11 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: The idea is that the keyboard is integrated in the back battery cover. And if you remove it, both parts (main body and battery cover/keyboard) are connected through a small ribbon cable. I.e. you remove the keyboard, fold it by 180 degrees so that the keys show in the same direction as the display and you can us the display in landscape format. If that works out with the snap mechanism of the battery cover and/or if it needs some physical connection between both parts has to be worked out. A complete alternative could be a battery cover with a hinge. Like this sketch: http://download.goldelico.com/gta04/images/Scan-120507143506.jpeg Your phantasy and creativity is asked for... Maybe we can just copy motorola backflip - check videos on youtube, it has big keyboard on the backside - it looks very comfortable and mechanically one of the easier solutions. Btw i have now fullscreen sw keyboard in QtMoko. It has big keys and is very comfortable to use. I will post video later... Regards Radek ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [Gta04-owner] [ANN] GTA04 Keyboard prototype
Hello, I have been thinking for a while to try a forearm-mounting casing for the openmoko. A casing that you would clip on the left (or right) forearm, that would be thin enough to fit under the sleeves or even covered with a piece of nice fabric to look like a cloth. This keyboard would probably fit well on the forearm together with the screen and it would make the whole thing easier to use. I am also thinking to place the antenna on the outside of the arm, above a piece of aluminum foil in order to reflect the radiated power and to protect the user from RF field. At the moment I don't have the GTA04, but I can make some rough drawings from the CAD files (I will need to download them). Would there be other people interested in this new way of carring your phone? I previously had some positive comments on the forum about this, so I think we could probably start a small group if there is enough interest. About the announcement itself, I think it is always good to show new ideas at early stages. This makes it possible for the community to orient the development of the project if they see better/different ways to use it. It also shows the level of interest. Lionel On 3 May 2012 09:41, Nikita V. Youshchenko yo...@debian.org wrote: Some more general thought: I am not sure how we should handle such ideas and how this community sees its role. Should we announce/publish immediately as soon as we have a prototype? And ask the community for comments and participation in improving it? Or should we silently finish some design and work with beta testers not on this list... From external point of view, having more information about what is going on is definitly better. However, it is you who is actually doing things, it's up to you to decide if to show your eraly prototypes and collect feedback or not. Nikita ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [Gta04-owner] [ANN] GTA04 Keyboard prototype
Am 03.05.2012 um 10:03 schrieb Butrus Damaskus: Very interresting, but I'm a little bit puzzled as how it should work in the real life... That is a task for further study and optimization. We have just built one unit and we need some 3D printed cases to do a better evaluation. Some more general thought: I am not sure how we should handle such ideas and how this community sees its role. Should we announce/publish immediately as soon as we have a prototype? And ask the community for comments and participation in improving it? Or should we silently finish some design and work with beta testers not on this list... I think this is a fundamental difference to open software development. There we can have a stable, a testing and an experimental branch and everyone can download the one he/she likes. With hardware we have to build physical protoypes and make experiments (which are not for free) to find out what a good solution is. Nikolaus On Tue, May 1, 2012 at 6:06 PM, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@goldelico.com wrote: Hi, we have developed a prototype for a 80 button QWERTY keyboard PCB that could eventually be connected/integrated into the GTA04. It should fit into a specially designed battery cover so that you can easily stow it away if not needed. Such battery covers could be produced individually through 3D printing solving the issue of manageing and stocking 20 different key layouts. But watch yourself how we think it can look like: http://youtu.be/WM94%5fR5eKcc There is also a new video showing a comparison with some other keyboards: http://youtu.be/wGASnE1zGh4 Pleas tell us if you like this idea and what you would like to pay for such an extension unit through the Wishlist function of our shop: http://www.handheld-linux.com/wiki.php?page=GTA04%3AKeyboard Two issues are still to be developed: a) how to reliably connect it to the GTA04 PCB (soldering copper wires or a FFCs is a little difficult so it should have a tiny, flexible but robust B2B cable). Maybe, we can use a micro-USB socket or similar (we need to connect 6 wires). This may also need a redesign of the GTA04 board (for a nice plug) b) design a 3D printable case with key-caps that is robust enough If you want to support us for developing this idea, please give us a kickstart donation. Nikolaus PS: the keyboard driver for the TCA8418 is already part of Linux 3.3 - and has been backported to the 2.6.32-kernel. This has been tested to work on a BeagleBoard XM. http://git.goldelico.com/?p=gta04-kernel.git;a=commit;h=f19d5c430458bbce8955bc9e04dd161f6a80347d It just needs platform data in the board file: http://git.goldelico.com/?p=gta04-kernel.git;a=blobdiff;f=arch/arm/mach-omap2/board-omap3gta04.c;h=8a7e4b0803920f635e7101bfbd5a60b6b84b1107;hp=3e49efef2de0b42cd419a46a9cd45448fd04a44c;hb=4b2de3db742abce9212c1af2cc576e2a3a64b0d9;hpb=1d7c6b5f043661621ec374d96c3c4a4454f9bb7b ___ Gta04-owner mailing list gta04-ow...@goldelico.com http://lists.goldelico.com/mailman/listinfo/gta04-owner ___ Gta04-owner mailing list gta04-ow...@goldelico.com http://lists.goldelico.com/mailman/listinfo/gta04-owner ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [Gta04-owner] [ANN] GTA04 Keyboard prototype
Some more general thought: I am not sure how we should handle such ideas and how this community sees its role. Should we announce/publish immediately as soon as we have a prototype? And ask the community for comments and participation in improving it? Or should we silently finish some design and work with beta testers not on this list... From external point of view, having more information about what is going on is definitly better. However, it is you who is actually doing things, it's up to you to decide if to show your eraly prototypes and collect feedback or not. Nikita ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
