Re: [UI/Graphics] Ever heard of graff ?
On 8/1/07, Florent THIERY <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > BTW, evas have a cairo backend, so you can mix both if required. > > Does it mean you can render evas in clutter then (i'm not thinking > running clutter on the neo, it's a general purpose question)? If cairo can render to clutter, yes, but it would be pointless as Evas already have OpenGL backend with its primitives mapped directly. But you could render to it and user clutter itself to move the rendered UI (like render to one window and move it 3d space, evas is just 2d, remember that). > > Other > > backends, like xrender, opengl, fb and directfb are supported as well. > > Regarding opengl, is the backend opengl es compliant, or does it rely > on opengl features that don't count in the opengl es subset ? I never checked it, but i fear its not, however primitives are simple enough to translate to /ES standard. -- Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri -- Jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED] MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ#: 17249123 Skype: gsbarbieri Mobile: +55 (81) 9927 0010 ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [UI/Graphics] Ever heard of graff ?
> BTW, evas have a cairo backend, so you can mix both if required. Does it mean you can render evas in clutter then (i'm not thinking running clutter on the neo, it's a general purpose question)? > Other > backends, like xrender, opengl, fb and directfb are supported as well. Regarding opengl, is the backend opengl es compliant, or does it rely on opengl features that don't count in the opengl es subset ? ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [UI/Graphics] Ever heard of graff ?
yep, but svg file or png wouldn't matter in most cases, where image size is fixed size. the benefit for using SVG is of course the ability to design extremely rich interfaces .. There are arguments that favor SVG, like have one file for multiple size and reduce file size footprint, but remember that icons don't scale down that well, with 16x16 and even 22x22 requiring special versions. Same for > 128, where you can stick more details. haven't had any problems with scaling since i started using svg as my primary interface container .. But again, Evas can use rsvg to load images, but it convert as soon as loaded. i'll be going in the libcairo+librsvg route with neo as soon as i get my hands on one .. j. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [UI/Graphics] Ever heard of graff ?
On 7/31/07, Jay Vaughan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > it's not about the conversion itself, but the data. > > > > libcairo + librsvg == data galore. sure, evas can use svg import too, but it just rasterize once at load time. > > As for counting cairo out, sure not. But use it for specific scope. > > > > Indeed, its a standard in my GUI toolkit at this point .. soon as I > get a neo in my hands, I'll have a go at getting it rendering a small > SVG suite as soon as I can .. don't expect too much. > >However, even UIs being scalable, they're basically described by > > pixmaps. It's insane to calculate a gradient on real time just to get > > a smooth blend: using a gradient pixmap and maybe using (even smooth) > > scaling would look as good, but use less CPU. Same for rounded > > corners, you can have a path to describe it, but a smart blit > > algorithm would be as fast. > > > > Its nicer to render vectors to your destination buffer/pix format > than do pixel processing from a bitmap file format, imho. define "nicer". Is that better graphics? Faster? > The extra > boot-up time (to render SVG as needed) is a matter of taste, of > course, but I never count out the idea of a display-list render loop > until I've tried running it on targetted hardware .. most libs/apps render SVG to bitmaps and then use it, having to keep the cache to save render time. In other words: it won't change that much during runtime, but will add boot up as you said, but I disagree it's a matter of taste. > > BTW, evas have a cairo backend, so you can mix both if required. Other > > backends, like xrender, opengl, fb and directfb are supported as well. > > Be nice to do the SDL dance too, because there are some fantastic SDL > apps in the world .. SDL is also supported as a backend, but I really see not much point there, as SDL is a great abstraction layer atop of framebuffers (x, fb, directfb, gdi, ...), not that fast since Evas already do that (one step less). -- Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri -- Jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED] MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ#: 17249123 Skype: gsbarbieri Mobile: +55 (81) 9927 0010 ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [UI/Graphics] Ever heard of graff ?
it's not about the conversion itself, but the data. libcairo + librsvg == data galore. As for counting cairo out, sure not. But use it for specific scope. Indeed, its a standard in my GUI toolkit at this point .. soon as I get a neo in my hands, I'll have a go at getting it rendering a small SVG suite as soon as I can .. However, even UIs being scalable, they're basically described by pixmaps. It's insane to calculate a gradient on real time just to get a smooth blend: using a gradient pixmap and maybe using (even smooth) scaling would look as good, but use less CPU. Same for rounded corners, you can have a path to describe it, but a smart blit algorithm would be as fast. Its nicer to render vectors to your destination buffer/pix format than do pixel processing from a bitmap file format, imho. The extra boot-up time (to render SVG as needed) is a matter of taste, of course, but I never count out the idea of a display-list render loop until I've tried running it on targetted hardware .. BTW, evas have a cairo backend, so you can mix both if required. Other backends, like xrender, opengl, fb and directfb are supported as well. Be nice to do the SDL dance too, because there are some fantastic SDL apps in the world .. j. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [UI/Graphics] Ever heard of graff ?
On 7/30/07, Jay Vaughan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> > > Cairo, as suggested, will not be an option in near future, since it > > does 32bpp graphics and the conversion will kill our hardware. > > > > > fwiw, its quite feasible to do nice assembly-based BPP conversion on > ARM and involves a decidedly negligible hit on performance .. don't > count cairo out of the libpack just yet .. it's not about the conversion itself, but the data. 16bpp versus 32bpp: - opaque images: 2 bytes versus 3 bytes (alignment!) - alpha images: 3 bytes (alpha in separate plane) versus 4 bytes - rgb * a: 1 arithmetic operation versus 3. This is due the fact that you can downscale a to 5 bits and then operate rgb (16bits) on a 32bit word, just move 6 bits of G from the pack to the other half-word and then you can fit the overflow. Also, in order to look barely good you need to apply dither mask to images, otherwise you get weird gradients, they become blocky. With 32bpp->16 you need to convert always, while with 16bpp you do at load time. For sure quality is not as good, since you lost many bits, but it's the price of performance... you can try to improve things (like this dither thing), but not much room is left. As for counting cairo out, sure not. But use it for specific scope. EFL does no vector graphics (just line, rectangle and polygon, I'd not count it as vector graphics lib) and if you have to draw charts, complex paths, etc... it's the best option. However, even UIs being scalable, they're basically described by pixmaps. It's insane to calculate a gradient on real time just to get a smooth blend: using a gradient pixmap and maybe using (even smooth) scaling would look as good, but use less CPU. Same for rounded corners, you can have a path to describe it, but a smart blit algorithm would be as fast. BTW, evas have a cairo backend, so you can mix both if required. Other backends, like xrender, opengl, fb and directfb are supported as well. -- Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri -- Jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED] MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ#: 17249123 Skype: gsbarbieri Mobile: +55 (81) 9927 0010 ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [UI/Graphics] Ever heard of graff ?
Cairo, as suggested, will not be an option in near future, since it does 32bpp graphics and the conversion will kill our hardware. fwiw, its quite feasible to do nice assembly-based BPP conversion on ARM and involves a decidedly negligible hit on performance .. don't count cairo out of the libpack just yet .. ; ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [UI/Graphics] Ever heard of graff ?
On 7/27/07, Florent THIERY <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I never heard about it, but it looks interesting (following the
> physics-inspired/verlet integration ramble some months ago on this
> very list)
> http://www.mdk.org.pl/articles/2007/04/23/chapter-1-in-which-we-meet-graff
>
> Be sure to check out this one (scrolling list with inertia scrolling)
> http://files.mdk.am/demos/graff-demo-3.avi
>
> No mention of OpenGL ES, but software rendering seems to be sufficient
> on Nokia 770/800. Let's wait for more news of graff (any additional
> data would be appreciated), and code. But it looks definetly promising
> !
>
> A python app, tracker backend, using graff (clutter/evas) as frontend,
> with gtk offscreen rendering and builtin mutimedia support (gstreamer
> or whatever lighter) ... Makes you want to have a GTA02 already :)
>
> Speaking of which
> * jnpatel's arena will be a clutter tracker frontend with direct
> webservices integration (ex: flickr).
> http://njpatel.blogspot.com/2007/03/im-not-even-supposed-to-be-here-today.html
> * some nice clutter toys news:
> http://njpatel.blogspot.com/2007/07/clutter-foo.html
>
> Any benchmarking news ?
Sorry being late to reply, but I was out for few days.
I've not seen any code for Graff and that demo for sure don't run on
N800, but flash, we do some prototype here using it too.
Cairo, as suggested, will not be an option in near future, since it
does 32bpp graphics and the conversion will kill our hardware.
I'm working on Evas for embedded systems and have it working for
Maemo/Nokia N800 using software_16 (which I wrote with help of
rasterman), python bindings and even some examples (with source
available):
http://blog.gustavobarbieri.com.br/2007/07/24/iphone-like-virtual-keyboard-for-n800/
you may also search for EFL on my blog history and see expedite
(benchmark) demo running.
all the code ({evas,ecore_evas,etk,ewl}/software_16, python-efl,
demos) is being done in e17 CVS, so code is already integrated and is
available under BSD license for those who care.
I work for INdT, thus our focus is Maemo/Nokia products. We have at
least 3 guys working with EFL, fixing bugs and writing tests and
prototype for our next version of Canola. But I know of Koen, Mickey
and Rasterman working with openmoko hw and they may report status on
this hardware (which I still don't have).
--
Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri
--
Jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
ICQ#: 17249123
Skype: gsbarbieri
Mobile: +55 (81) 9927 0010
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Re: [UI/Graphics] Ever heard of graff ?
On Jul 27, 2007, at 2:53 PM, Florent THIERY wrote: http://files.mdk.am/demos/graff-demo-3.avi nice demo .. a lot of this can be done through cairographics too, incidentally, and i rather like cairo's progress on the pocket, lately, anyway .. exciting times to be building apps for linux machines. ; ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
[UI/Graphics] Ever heard of graff ?
I never heard about it, but it looks interesting (following the physics-inspired/verlet integration ramble some months ago on this very list) http://www.mdk.org.pl/articles/2007/04/23/chapter-1-in-which-we-meet-graff Be sure to check out this one (scrolling list with inertia scrolling) http://files.mdk.am/demos/graff-demo-3.avi No mention of OpenGL ES, but software rendering seems to be sufficient on Nokia 770/800. Let's wait for more news of graff (any additional data would be appreciated), and code. But it looks definetly promising ! A python app, tracker backend, using graff (clutter/evas) as frontend, with gtk offscreen rendering and builtin mutimedia support (gstreamer or whatever lighter) ... Makes you want to have a GTA02 already :) Speaking of which * jnpatel's arena will be a clutter tracker frontend with direct webservices integration (ex: flickr). http://njpatel.blogspot.com/2007/03/im-not-even-supposed-to-be-here-today.html * some nice clutter toys news: http://njpatel.blogspot.com/2007/07/clutter-foo.html Any benchmarking news ? Regards, Florent ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
