Re: [openmoko-announce] Openmoko on Design
It seems to me from my former-product-mananger perspective that OpenMoko doesn't really want to be in the software business. I'm sensing a business model that has OpenMoko focussing on selling general-purpose computing hardware (like Dell or ASUS). but in a handheld format, and letting the community or some third party (like Trolltech/Nokia) deal with the software issues, for the most part. Obviously they need to ship the phone with *something*, so they're betting on Qtopia-over-X11, which seems a solidly good choice. The one very big problem with this model, is that Dell and ASUS have very mature, end-user-ready software suites (Ubuntu, Windoze, etc.) to ship with their hardware or for users to add on their own, and the OpenMoko doesn't really have that yet. This will get sorted out though. I'd bet on about two years from now it'll all be squared away. -ken ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community Hey Ken, Hey Community, this is also my interpretation, Openmoko is trying only to to open up a building site, *WE* have to build our houses and factories, anybody expecting more than infrastructure is still bound to products before NEO and before Openmoko. freeyourphone.de ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [openmoko-announce] Openmoko on Design
Ken Restivo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It seems to me from my former-product-mananger perspective that OpenMoko doesn't really want to be in the software business. why would they do ASU/FSO then? i don't buy this. I'm sensing a business model that has OpenMoko focussing on selling general-purpose computing hardware (like Dell or ASUS). but in a handheld format, and letting the community or some third party (like Trolltech/Nokia) deal with the software issues, for the most part. if that was true, they would just throw some money at trolltech/nokia and ship qtopia, not needing to bother with anything else. for sure would be much cheaper (at least i think). best regards ... clemens ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [openmoko-announce] Openmoko on Design
you seem very passionate about your concerns. If you are going to linux world I'd be happy to meet and discuss things. Or if you can make a list of specific problems I can try to explain or address your concerns. [reply off-list] ; -- Jay Vaughan ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [openmoko-announce] Openmoko on Design
About Jay, I apologize if I attached personally it, but he was attaching a lot of person of this ML, and it was not too much nice. I don't believe I attacked any one person specifically, personally, but okay .. lets move on. There is code to be written and new things to be talked about. All griping aside, it sure is fun to have a nice open pocket platform to code for, as stormy as this one is .. Now I wish you a very nice day, and happy programming ( or experimenting). Indeed! Moving on .. ; -- Jay Vaughan ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [openmoko-announce] Openmoko on Design
Nkoli wrote: On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 5:22 PM, Jay Vaughan [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Having worked in Open-Hardware for over 15 years now, I was, in fact, expecting a much more coherent strategy for the software platform on Freerunner than just let the community decide. Certainly, the community aspect of this project is huge; I am not saying that it is not valuable to have such great public influence on the design; just that: there *has* to be a rigid design approach to guide development, or else we end up with a torn map navigating fork-city. Jay, your negative posts on this ML do nothing but foster an unpleasant atmosphere Actually I disagree a bit here. Jay is not trolling but just saying where he's trying to come from. I'm not saying that everybody should immideately agree with him, but this is one of the main points of having an open community. There NEEDS to be open criticism and discussion, it's not like there's only one truth. Trying to silence and belittle people who see differently is exactly what should be avoided. Trolling is one thing, but I think Linus is a great example. Having strong oppinions and stating them can be good, even if I don't always agree, but they're never at least unfounded. Kalle ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [openmoko-announce] Openmoko on Design
I think my first project will be called MokoBingo! (with the exclamation mark!)! It will check the mailing list on a regular basis and the Freerunner will make a squeaky noise when any of the following terms are encountered: heh heh .. please do this! :) ; -- Jay Vaughan ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [openmoko-announce] Openmoko on Design
Jay, your negative posts on this ML do nothing but foster an unpleasant atmosphere. Last I checked, no one put a gun to your head and forced you to buy or design for the FR. If you're tired of waiting for the device to become stable, sell the phone and check back again in about a year. What part of 'open' don't you get? Its open. I can criticise if I think its necessary. So once again, if you believe your time and money has been wasted on the project, cut your losses now and go. Develop for another device until the neo becomes more palatable to your tastes. I'm hacking on Freerunner daily. Its my chosen platform. When I criticise the strategy and the approach being made to establish a platform, its because I intend to stick with it. Wouldn't make sense otherwise. ; -- Jay Vaughan ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [openmoko-announce] Openmoko on Design
If you need a benevolent dictator to lead, why not become one yourself? Because there is one already, he just doesn't have any power to make smart design decisions because of some new-age hippy-dippy faff. If you need standards why not make them? This is not a responsibility of the Openmoko team. They already gave us the damn thing to build it all on. This really is the job of the community. Stop whining and start doing the job yourself if you want it done. It's no one else's responsibility. I am: building apps (a game, a time tool, a music system), and: working on developer tutorials to help my fellows also build apps they are interested in. Stay tuned. ; -- Jay Vaughan ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [openmoko-announce] Openmoko on Design
Jay, your negative posts on this ML do nothing but foster an unpleasant atmosphere Actually I disagree a bit here. Jay is not trolling but just saying where he's trying to come from. Thank you Kalle .. no, I'm not trolling, yes I am voicing a strong opinion, yes I do think the Freerunner is a cool device to hack on, no I don't have any plans to abandon my work, yes I would like it if there was a little more spirited organization towards delivering a *finished* system that targets users and which developers can stably approach. I'm not saying that everybody should immideately agree with him, but this is one of the main points of having an open community. There NEEDS to be open criticism and discussion, it's not like there's only one truth. Indeed. Keep in mind people, the Freerunner is not the only open- hardware project out there (Pandora, I've got my eyes on you, baby), its just one that has a lot of hype going for it because of the general interest (Apple) towards beefier cell phone computing .. how many times have I looked at iPhone with hungry eyes, goodness .. Trying to silence and belittle people who see differently is exactly what should be avoided. Trolling is one thing, but I think Linus is a great example. Having strong oppinions and stating them can be good, even if I don't always agree, but they're never at least unfounded. Linus is a champion. ; -- Jay Vaughan ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [openmoko-announce] Openmoko on Design
If you need a benevolent dictator to lead, why not become one yourself? If you need standards why not make them? This is not a responsibility of the Openmoko team. They already gave us the damn thing to build it all on. This really is the job of the community. Stop whining and start doing the job yourself if you want it done. It's no one else's responsibility. sorry, but that's imho part of the responsibility of om -- if i don't liek i don't need to use it but why should i (and everyone else) invent taht kind of stuff? distributors like debian/suse/redhat/... even gentoo create distributions so you don't need to worry about all that tedious stuff like installing, updating, uninstalling, keeping track of files, creating config files and so on. most users of linux do not use it because the want to create their system from scratch -- the are happy that someone organizes things that need to be taken care of and the adjust or modify where needed. basically the same thing is it i was expecting from om. i was hoping that these decisions where made already and i had not to care about them -- i am, like probably the most of us, rather application-oriented, and i want to focus on managing existing applications and -- hopefully in a near future -- developing my own, using firm foundations. those foundations do in no way harm the freedom to create a completely different kind of managing the freerunner, like the pure existence of debian or slackware didn't hinder the creation and growing up of mandrake, suse or redhat. but the _user_ had a distribution to work with. i read seans mail rather as a polite way to say we're pissed off by all this criticism. well, as a ceo of om he can't be that frank as jay or marcus bauer from tangogps, but certainly he has a point here. otoh the hair raising issue of the root login or the thread regarding the keyboard toggle of asu prove that those being critical have valid points, too. after all, we're now (imo) at the usual point with projects being so overeloaded with ideas and imagination: people see the realy thing and realize that a lot of high hopes are far from reality -- adapting to these new facts is a lengthy process with a lot of criticism until the vision and reality match. i can fully understand that people like jay, knowing the neo1973 and hoping for the fr to fix a lot of shortcomings, _are_ annoyed, in particular when they get the impression that everything they say dies away unheard. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [openmoko-announce] Openmoko on Design
Hi, Jay Vaughan schrieb: [snip] This does not work. That is all. As Sean already said. You are only speaking for yourself. I am glad that OpenMoko is not just another half-open half-closed effort that once thought: Oh look Linux. It doesn't cost a dime. Let's make something that is flashy and blinks and develop it as proprietary as we always did. Regards Robert signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [openmoko-announce] Openmoko on Design
I have to agree with Kalle Jay, While i part of me would like to see a nailed down platform with a clear definition of tools, UI standards, platform support, documentation standards(one I've been yelling about recently) I also understand OM's struggle to produce a viable open source product in record time. I hope we can all agree to disagree and take the constructive criticism for what it is, constructive I am heartened by Sean's statement about OM's mission and their determination to get it right. I'm also happy to see this open discussion among knowledgeable people who are in the trenches and getting it done. Rock on Neo! Scott Kalle Happonen wrote: Nkoli wrote: Jay, your negative posts on this ML do nothing but foster an unpleasant atmosphere Actually I disagree a bit here. Jay is not trolling but just saying Kalle signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [openmoko-announce] Openmoko on Design
This does not work. That is all. As Sean already said. You are only speaking for yourself. I am not alone in my view. I am glad that OpenMoko is not just another half-open half-closed effort that once thought: Oh look Linux. It doesn't cost a dime. Let's make something that is flashy and blinks and develop it as proprietary as we always did. I'm glad OpenMoko has as many rabid fanboix as other projects, it means there is hope yet .. ; -- Jay Vaughan ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [openmoko-announce] Openmoko on Design
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Jay Vaughan wrote: I'm glad OpenMoko has as many rabid fanboix as other projects, it means there is hope yet .. Usually I am not too much disposed to moderation in a ML, but now I am started to think: In these two days you wrote around 15 email (it is only stimated). Every email was enought long, to explain why Openmoko suck. I think this require some hours hour man-time (let suppose 3-4 h) In 3-4 hours a person can do: To learn a bit how to write an little application for Freerunner (To start you need around 2-3 hour of intensive study, if you have experience in programming) To check 10 pages of the Wiki updating old information Start to know of to make a theme for Openmoko Go out buy a postcard and to send it to Openmoko team that will be happy that someone is thinking to them I am no one to tell to you how to use your time, but I personally thing that continuing to use your time to repeat how many stupid things Openmoko do, and complaining how many fanboy there are, is not the best way to help this project. Then do you what do you think is better! All this in my personal opinion! Michele Renda -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkiPIvYACgkQSIAU/I6SkT3eogCfUX7G2mvUJmcg6KH4KOLMWkzi wGoAnRjT9zbvrCXFFEf/q6I7aeRn8qeU =kWjH -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [openmoko-announce] Openmoko on Design
I am no one to tell to you how to use your time, but I personally thing that continuing to use your time to repeat how many stupid things Openmoko do, and complaining how many fanboy there are, is not the best way to help this project. Then do you what do you think is better! I don't think rabid fanboix'ism is going to help the situation. There *are* negatives to whats going on with OpenMoko; perhaps you don't see them because you haven't been attempting to write applications for the platform, as I have for a year now. Certainly, unless there is pressure to address the faults in current strategy which are making it /so/ /very/ /hard/ for 3rd-party developers to ramp up to productivity in promoting, and using, the OpenMoko platform, then it won't happen. OpenMoko *need* to know that there is dissatisfaction in the ranks with the way they are dealing with these issues - I'm only one of about 15 people who have shared the same views as me, and I'm vocal about it because *I care*; sycophants and dilettantes are not going to make it easy for them to see they are turning developers away, and making it difficult to get behind the platform in a big way. I do believe we can build a great product with OpenMoko. I just want to make sure that the OM community realises that there are issues at hand which *must* be addressed if we want to make it as big as we all desire. Certainly the current fractious nature of the distribution, the feature regression and creeping bugs are not making it easier. Something must change. All this in my personal opinion! Thanks for sharing it in a manner we are all entitled, since this is an Open project. And thank you to all those people who have shared their opinions with me privately. If any of you wish to continue to voice an opinion about Jay Vaughan and how much time he is wasting, please feel free to do so - privately, off-list. ; -- Jay Vaughan ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: [openmoko-announce] Openmoko on Design
Hehe. Michele your comment made my day and I read hundreds of emails per day -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michele Renda Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2008 7:03 AM To: List for Openmoko community discussion Subject: Re: [openmoko-announce] Openmoko on Design -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Jay Vaughan wrote: I'm glad OpenMoko has as many rabid fanboix as other projects, it means there is hope yet .. Usually I am not too much disposed to moderation in a ML, but now I am started to think: In these two days you wrote around 15 email (it is only stimated). Every email was enought long, to explain why Openmoko suck. I think this require some hours hour man-time (let suppose 3-4 h) In 3-4 hours a person can do: To learn a bit how to write an little application for Freerunner (To start you need around 2-3 hour of intensive study, if you have experience in programming) To check 10 pages of the Wiki updating old information Start to know of to make a theme for Openmoko Go out buy a postcard and to send it to Openmoko team that will be happy that someone is thinking to them I am no one to tell to you how to use your time, but I personally thing that continuing to use your time to repeat how many stupid things Openmoko do, and complaining how many fanboy there are, is not the best way to help this project. Then do you what do you think is better! All this in my personal opinion! Michele Renda -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkiPIvYACgkQSIAU/I6SkT3eogCfUX7G2mvUJmcg6KH4KOLMWkzi wGoAnRjT9zbvrCXFFEf/q6I7aeRn8qeU =kWjH -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [openmoko-announce] Openmoko on Design
On Tue, 2008-07-29 at 16:02 +0200, Michele Renda wrote: I think this require some hours hour man-time (let suppose 3-4 h) I'll agree that responding as Jay has takes considerable time, but I disagree with what a person can do. In 3-4 hours a person can do: To learn a bit how to write an little application for Freerunner (To start you need around 2-3 hour of intensive study, if you have experience in programming) I've been poking at FR for probably a good 20hrs now. Flash, reflashing, playing, poking, looking for logs, looking for hooks. And I still haven't started programming yet (yes, i have embedded linux experience). I spent an hour *just* trying to figure out why exposure was not starting up. In the end, I could not and just gave up. To check 10 pages of the Wiki updating old information Ok, that assumes I have something to contribute. After 20 hrs on my FR, and countless hours over the last year reading the list, I do not feel very confident in *any* of my methods yet to start sharing them with others. Start to know of to make a theme for Openmoko Yikes, I wouldn't even know where to start if I wanted to do that. Go out buy a postcard and to send it to Openmoko team that will be happy that someone is thinking to them Well...that's some blue sky thinking for you! Tell you what I did do, though...I sent them a virtual postcard with $369 attached ;-) I vent now because I'm frustrated. My wheels are spinning in the mud. I have some great ideas but and can't seem to get traction in the product. That's why you hear so much on this topic. Jay already has 3 projects *underway* -- he has clearly invested a lot more time implementing for the phone than he has emailing about it. This is the 3rd time I've started a message on this thread. It always gets to the point where I want to make concrete suggestions on how to improve. That's where it gets messy. I'm too lost in finding the right set of magic commands to fix the problem of the day to figure out what would make it better... More than anything, my suggestion to the OpenMoko team -- get things *stable*. Stop all new development until you get it stable. The build process, basic menuing, core documentation. I still have the window manager crash on me periodically ...stuck with a brick until I can ssh in and restart X. Until it gets stable, adding more features or more apps is just adding fuel to the fire. ...cj I am no one to tell to you how to use your time, but I personally thing that continuing to use your time to repeat how many stupid things Openmoko do, and complaining how many fanboy there are, is not the best way to help this project. Then do you what do you think is better! All this in my personal opinion! Michele Renda -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkiPIvYACgkQSIAU/I6SkT3eogCfUX7G2mvUJmcg6KH4KOLMWkzi wGoAnRjT9zbvrCXFFEf/q6I7aeRn8qeU =kWjH -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: [openmoko-announce] Openmoko on Design
Jay, you seem very passionate about your concerns. If you are going to linux world I'd be happy to meet and discuss things. Or if you can make a list of specific problems I can try to explain or address your concerns. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jay Vaughan Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2008 7:53 AM To: List for Openmoko community discussion Subject: Re: [openmoko-announce] Openmoko on Design I am no one to tell to you how to use your time, but I personally thing that continuing to use your time to repeat how many stupid things Openmoko do, and complaining how many fanboy there are, is not the best way to help this project. Then do you what do you think is better! I don't think rabid fanboix'ism is going to help the situation. There *are* negatives to whats going on with OpenMoko; perhaps you don't see them because you haven't been attempting to write applications for the platform, as I have for a year now. Certainly, unless there is pressure to address the faults in current strategy which are making it /so/ /very/ /hard/ for 3rd-party developers to ramp up to productivity in promoting, and using, the OpenMoko platform, then it won't happen. OpenMoko *need* to know that there is dissatisfaction in the ranks with the way they are dealing with these issues - I'm only one of about 15 people who have shared the same views as me, and I'm vocal about it because *I care*; sycophants and dilettantes are not going to make it easy for them to see they are turning developers away, and making it difficult to get behind the platform in a big way. I do believe we can build a great product with OpenMoko. I just want to make sure that the OM community realises that there are issues at hand which *must* be addressed if we want to make it as big as we all desire. Certainly the current fractious nature of the distribution, the feature regression and creeping bugs are not making it easier. Something must change. All this in my personal opinion! Thanks for sharing it in a manner we are all entitled, since this is an Open project. And thank you to all those people who have shared their opinions with me privately. If any of you wish to continue to voice an opinion about Jay Vaughan and how much time he is wasting, please feel free to do so - privately, off-list. ; -- Jay Vaughan ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [openmoko-announce] Openmoko on Design
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Cristopher, let me to understand why you are so in angry. Like you I sent my 350 Eur postcard (= 2 month of my house rent) for a phone that I was knowing was not software complete (and some possible hardware bug). OM wrote very well on the homepage that is not a end user product. They wrote very well. I bought my phone knowing that it will show me things we human can't neither to image (and not in the good sense) I think we was knowing very well what it mean. Then OM give it the possibility to follow from the alpha version the next software framework. It is like the first version of KDE4: all was knowing that was a realy big revolution, and it need time. Then now we can choose: we can use the 2007 gtk version or the new version. Is our freedom. Why we must to be in angry if we have the choose? Some people worked and bring us the possibility to install Debian + XFCE (I was not beliving to my eyes). If you want the GTK version use and maintain it. Openmoko never said that will do that will make impossible to install the gtk version. If you use it, and you maintain it, it will become better and will take the place of ASU. But please, is not the situation to complain if you install the aplha version and it is not running stable. You must to take Openmoko as a piece of free hardware. Install then what you want, and be happy. About Jay, I apologize if I attached personally it, but he was attaching a lot of person of this ML, and it was not too much nice. Now I wish you a very nice day, and happy programming ( or experimenting). PS. If you want to enjoy with programming, try to see something about python and pygtk. It gave me some satisfactions with only a few of hours of work. May be it can be surprice you. Regards Michele Renda Christopher White wrote: On Tue, 2008-07-29 at 16:02 +0200, Michele Renda wrote: I think this require some hours hour man-time (let suppose 3-4 h) I'll agree that responding as Jay has takes considerable time, but I disagree with what a person can do. In 3-4 hours a person can do: To learn a bit how to write an little application for Freerunner (To start you need around 2-3 hour of intensive study, if you have experience in programming) I've been poking at FR for probably a good 20hrs now. Flash, reflashing, playing, poking, looking for logs, looking for hooks. And I still haven't started programming yet (yes, i have embedded linux experience). I spent an hour *just* trying to figure out why exposure was not starting up. In the end, I could not and just gave up. To check 10 pages of the Wiki updating old information Ok, that assumes I have something to contribute. After 20 hrs on my FR, and countless hours over the last year reading the list, I do not feel very confident in *any* of my methods yet to start sharing them with others. Start to know of to make a theme for Openmoko Yikes, I wouldn't even know where to start if I wanted to do that. Go out buy a postcard and to send it to Openmoko team that will be happy that someone is thinking to them Well...that's some blue sky thinking for you! Tell you what I did do, though...I sent them a virtual postcard with $369 attached ;-) I vent now because I'm frustrated. My wheels are spinning in the mud. I have some great ideas but and can't seem to get traction in the product. That's why you hear so much on this topic. Jay already has 3 projects *underway* -- he has clearly invested a lot more time implementing for the phone than he has emailing about it. This is the 3rd time I've started a message on this thread. It always gets to the point where I want to make concrete suggestions on how to improve. That's where it gets messy. I'm too lost in finding the right set of magic commands to fix the problem of the day to figure out what would make it better... More than anything, my suggestion to the OpenMoko team -- get things *stable*. Stop all new development until you get it stable. The build process, basic menuing, core documentation. I still have the window manager crash on me periodically ...stuck with a brick until I can ssh in and restart X. Until it gets stable, adding more features or more apps is just adding fuel to the fire. ...cj I am no one to tell to you how to use your time, but I personally thing that continuing to use your time to repeat how many stupid things Openmoko do, and complaining how many fanboy there are, is not the best way to help this project. Then do you what do you think is better! All this in my personal opinion! Michele Renda -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkiPIvYACgkQSIAU/I6SkT3eogCfUX7G2mvUJmcg6KH4KOLMWkzi wGoAnRjT9zbvrCXFFEf/q6I7aeRn8qeU =kWjH -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [openmoko-announce] Openmoko on Design
Hi Michele, Cristopher, let me to understand why you are so in angry. Forgive me if I came across as very angry. I actually am not. I am frustrated, but I do not find fault with anyone in this regard. Like you I sent my 350 Eur postcard (= 2 month of my house rent) for a phone that I was knowing was not software complete (and some possible hardware bug). OM wrote very well on the homepage that is not a end user product. They wrote very well. I bought my phone knowing that it will show me things we human can't neither to image (and not in the good sense) You are absolutely correct. I fully understood what I was getting into, as I think most people on this list did. By no means did I expect an end user product. Then now we can choose: we can use the 2007 gtk version or the new version. Is our freedom. Why we must to be in angry if we have the choose? You are correct that it was my choice to join the club. Let me expand on my frustration. I think it is first and foremost a matter of clear channels of communication. My frustration comes off as anger because I just can't seem to figure out where to go at times. I know I signed up for a tough road, and I am not afraid to rollup my sleeves and strace a process to see why it's hung. But it's **sloooww** to come up to speed. It's practically a vertical learning curve. I'm sharing this with the folks at OpenMoko because *they* have the most experience with this device, if anything because it's been in their hands for a *lot* longer. Their wisdom is golden. Right now, it comes out in bits and pieces on the wiki and in email. Finding the answers is tough. Please don't take this as severe criticism. Instead understand that I'd like to try and influence the immediate direction of the folks at OpenMoko to work on helping the masses of developers like me and Jay and others that want to dive in, but we're severely hindered by the current state, which may require pulling people of projects temporarily. It's like sacrificing a little time on ASU goals to get the rest of us up to speed. In the long run, that will be a much bigger pay off. Openmoko never said that will do that will make impossible to install the gtk version. If you use it, and you maintain it, it will become better and will take the place of ASU. Forgive me...which is the GTK version? Are you speaking of FSO, or 2007.2, or some new version? It sounds very appealing. But please, is not the situation to complain if you install the aplha version and it is not running stable. I have tried very hard to voice my complaint along *with* a suggestion. I held my tongue for a while on this topic because I don't want to be yet another whiner. But there often a grain of wisdom to the masses, thus I felt it necessary to validate some of the complaints of others. You must to take Openmoko as a piece of free hardware. Install then what you want, and be happy. I am very excited about itjust ready to kick off the mud already ;-) Now I wish you a very nice day, and happy programming ( or experimenting). Thank you Michele, forgive me if I sounded harsh. I am a satisfied, if temporarily frustrated, customer. ...cj ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [openmoko-announce] Openmoko on Design
On 7/29/08 Stroller wrote: Initially I was really angry about the whole removal-of-the-keyboard-button-by- shadowy-designers thing, and I've come to realise it's irrelevant and that I was stupid to get upset about it. Please don't think it's irrelevant. It's anything but. This is the essence of what we're making. An empy vessel for you to personalize. We make something simple but powerful. Removing and adding meaning. -Sean ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [openmoko-announce] Openmoko on Design
On Wednesday 30 July 2008 04:37:20 Christopher White wrote: Hi Cristopher, let me to understand why you are so in angry. My frustration comes off as anger because I just can't seem to figure out where to go at times. I know I signed up for a tough road, and I am not afraid to rollup my sleeves and strace a process to see why it's hung. But it's **sloooww** to come up to speed. It's practically a vertical learning curve. This is the hard work of pioneers :) Usually are them that take all disadvantage of a new technology and took the arrow by Indians. But our experience is very important and will help the persons will come after us. You work, and your experience are really important for Openmoko. In this moment I am thinking to the very early adopter of Neo 1973 I'm sharing this with the folks at OpenMoko because *they* have the most experience with this device, if anything because it's been in their hands for a *lot* longer. Their wisdom is golden. Right now, it comes out in bits and pieces on the wiki and in email. Finding the answers is tough. Please don't take this as severe criticism. Instead understand that I'd like to try and influence the immediate direction of the folks at OpenMoko to work on helping the masses of developers like me and Jay and others that want to dive in, but we're severely hindered by the current state, which may require pulling people of projects temporarily. It's like sacrificing a little time on ASU goals to get the rest of us up to speed. In the long run, that will be a much bigger pay off. I understand that you did it in a constructive way, and this is nice. The problem is that when the critics become too much as in these days, in place to take the effect to put the OM developer to give the max put the developer to felt criticized in every side, and I think you get the opposite effect. Remember they are only persons. Forgive me...which is the GTK version? Are you speaking of FSO, or 2007.2, or some new version? It sounds very appealing. I am speaking 2007.2. but with all these names :) I have tried very hard to voice my complaint along *with* a suggestion. I held my tongue for a while on this topic because I don't want to be yet another whiner. But there often a grain of wisdom to the masses, thus I felt it necessary to validate some of the complaints of others. I thinks that complaints are enough validated for now. There are some problem and I hope them will be fixed fast. I am very excited about itjust ready to kick off the mud already ;-) ... and I read also about Ubuntu ARM Thank you Michele, forgive me if I sounded harsh. I am a satisfied, if temporarily frustrated, customer. I think you wrote in a constructive way, so it is important. May be one time, when we will have our GTA99 we will read these email and we will smile about it :) Regards Michele Renda ...cj ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [openmoko-announce] Openmoko on Design
[snip] This does not work. That is all. ; -- Jay Vaughan ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [openmoko-announce] Openmoko on Design
Sorry to hear it doesn't work for you. But like I said, we each have our own ways of understanding and making meanings. You are free to create your own meanings. I just can't see how you honestly believe all this panty-waiste dilettante waffling about not having a design because its up to the open community is going to drive things forward. Are you, or are you not, committed to delivering a working phone platform that *users* and developers alike are going to be interested in? Then: some standards need to be put forth, and they need to be adhered to. Because at this point, it seems to me that you've just pissed in the koolaid. Basically, you're just selling incomplete, mediocre hardware in order to cash in on the Open Community meme, or what? Please, for all that is merciful and mighty, *get a design* for the current systems done, and make sure your team of superlative wizards adhere to that design. Provide, at the very least, a reference platform for your daily bread. Lead this community, don't just throw its fates to the winds of its own desire; that is *doom* for all who have invested so far in the hopes that the platform grows sufficiently to make the not insignificant effort to play along, worthwhile. ; -- Jay Vaughan ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [openmoko-announce] Openmoko on Design
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Jay Vaughan wrote: Because at this point, it seems to me that you've just pissed in the koolaid. Basically, you're just selling incomplete, mediocre hardware in order to cash in on the Open Community meme, or what? Hi Jay. First person that installed Linux 1.0 was installing a very usable system where all the periferical was full running? Linus Torvalds was receiving every day a lot of email where people was telling that their new IPod was not running? Openmoko is trying to do what can: is trying to build a phone. It is trying to build a running open hardware: It will not be perfect but it will be open. You will know all the defect and compromise token to get it. Then is your choose. And don't tell to me that OM hardware is broken because you know it, while other firm's hardware that keep all closed, are prerfect because you don't know about defects? Please, for all that is merciful and mighty, *get a design* for the current systems done, and make sure your team of superlative wizards adhere to that design. Provide, at the very least, a reference platform for your daily bread. Lead this community, don't just throw its fates to the winds of its own desire; The problem is if the community need to be lead or if want the food ready. When in every day I read a lot of email: This is not running, this is bad, why to use this toolkit, why it must be so. In this situation there is no way to drive a community. We must to stop and to think on ourself. What we did on our phone? I remmeber when there was the GPS/SD problem, how a lot of person outside OM and inside OM started to work togheter and WE did a miracle. OM alone couldn't be able to solve the issue, but togheter we did what was impossible. There is still a lot of work to do. There is the need of very talented developer, passioned people to make this project possible. There is a Wiki, that need a lot of work, may be of a complete restruction, there is the need to understands why umts cards doesn't run, how to have SMS working, etc. I am sure outside, in these ML there are a lot of very talented people, people that can make the difference. We need them, not people that reming we produce a mediocre hardware and incomplete software. Freedom is hard to get that is *doom* for all who have invested so far in the hopes that the platform grows sufficiently to make the not insignificant effort to play along, worthwhile. ; -- Jay Vaughan ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkiOMqcACgkQSIAU/I6SkT1ZuwCgjtAyHAK9PieUo5T4gEIgwsvp NZ0AoINAvfbumPgD90UuYzoebrDXZv7q =b7LD -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [openmoko-announce] Openmoko on Design
Jay Vaughan wrote, On 28/07/08 21:31: Sorry to hear it doesn't work for you. But like I said, we each have our own ways of understanding and making meanings. You are free to create your own meanings. I just can't see how you honestly believe all this panty-waiste dilettante waffling about not having a design because its up to the open community is going to drive things forward. Are you, or are you not, committed to delivering a working phone platform that *users* and developers alike are going to be interested in? Then: some standards need to be put forth, and they need to be adhered to. I can't speak for anybody else, but what were you actually expecting of the Neo FR? A finished SDK that you can develop against to build your app on?To me this is Linux pre 1.0 with with no GNOME or KDE or XFCE or ... any evolved user interface. I'm okay with that - it's early days yet. I can just about see what they are doing, but it's very early in the game. Too early to expect a stable platform you can write your apps against ONCE. Because at this point, it seems to me that you've just pissed in the koolaid. Basically, you're just selling incomplete, mediocre hardware in order to cash in on the Open Community meme, or what? Ask yourself: WHY did you buy the Neo FreeRunner? I'm curious. Why did you buy it after reading the wiki and just about every other piece of information about it said I'm really new, not finished, alpha software, may not work, etc, etc.. I know why I bought it. Please, for all that is merciful and mighty, *get a design* for the current systems done, and make sure your team of superlative wizards adhere to that design. How would you go about doing that? You ask a lot of questions. How would you start to answer them? Cheers Alex. Provide, at the very least, a reference platform for your daily bread. Lead this community, don't just throw its fates to the winds of its own desire; that is *doom* for all who have invested so far in the hopes that the platform grows sufficiently to make the not insignificant effort to play along, worthwhile. ; -- Jay Vaughan ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Alex Kavanagh Home: http://alex.kavanagh.name, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Work: http://www.tinwood.com,[EMAIL PROTECTED] MSN : [EMAIL PROTECTED] XMPP: [EMAIL PROTECTED]/Gaim ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [openmoko-announce] Openmoko on Design
Openmoko is trying to do what can: is trying to build a phone. It is trying to build a running open hardware: It will not be perfect but it will be open. You will know all the defect and compromise token to get it. Then is your choose. And don't tell to me that OM hardware is broken because you know it, while other firm's hardware that keep all closed, are prerfect because you don't know about defects? I'm fully aware that hardware companies cover their asses with software fixups. Thats not the issue I'm declaring, which is: please can we have some attention to the design, so that we're not constantly chasing an unknown. It is *important* that such things as a usable GUI, which looks nice, are presented very, very rapidly - there is no other way for our projects to snowball than to attract the interest of those who will use the hardware. So far, nobody is enjoying the usability experience, terribly much, and this is because of this attitude that 'the community will fix it'. In this situation there is no way to drive a community. We must to stop and to think on ourself. What we did on our phone? I guess this is really the essence of the situation. I remmeber when there was the GPS/SD problem, how a lot of person outside OM and inside OM started to work togheter and WE did a miracle. Sorry, its one thing to fixup the GPS/SD issue (which is still borked), its another thing entirely to sit down before you commit any further silicon and say this doesn't work, it is not to our specificaiton, we need to /design/ it better. Glamo, SD, GPS. Three things we really do *not* want to talk too loudly about, if we want to continue to attract developers.. and I am fairly convinced that it is the lackadaisical attitude to the qualities of the hardware, which would ordinarily be addressed through a *strong* design ethos, which brought this situation about. ; -- Jay Vaughan ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [openmoko-announce] Openmoko on Design
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Jay Vaughan wrote: It is *important* that such things as a usable GUI, which looks nice, are presented very, very rapidly - there is no other way for our projects to snowball than to attract the interest of those who will use the hardware. So far, nobody is enjoying the usability experience, terribly much, and this is because of this attitude that 'the community will fix it'. I give you reason. A gui, a wiki are the first things that a user see. I think a very nice gui, can convince a lot of people to buy a phone in place of another. Wiki is the first place where a person go searching for info. The problem is that to did this has a cost. And big too. An artist cost a lot and I prefer OM use his resources to take a kernel developer or an hardware enginer. This don't mean that OM don't need of skilled graphician and people that can help Brenda to take care of the wiki. Sorry, its one thing to fixup the GPS/SD issue (which is still borked), its another thing entirely to sit down before you commit any further silicon and say this doesn't work, it is not to our specificaiton, we need to /design/ it better. Glamo, SD, GPS. Three things we really do *not* want to talk too loudly about, if we want to continue to attract developers.. and I am fairly convinced that it is the lackadaisical attitude to the qualities of the hardware, which would ordinarily be addressed through a *strong* design ethos, which brought this situation about. I don't think it was a we don't care. Error can happen. With lucky some were possible to be solve. In the future they will learn by their experience, and we finally we will have from Linux 1.0 a Ubuntu 8.04 / Fedora 9 with Gnome / Compiz / KDE4 :) ; -- Jay Vaughan ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkiOPBEACgkQSIAU/I6SkT2DIACfRYafShQRhbSz98gMb2TrGWXA Aj4AmgK6+fuDuVTJzyr1J1PtFvxPz5fp =/rC9 -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [openmoko-announce] Openmoko on Design
On 28 Jul 2008, at 21:31, Jay Vaughan wrote: Sorry to hear it doesn't work for you. But like I said, we each have our own ways of understanding and making meanings. You are free to create your own meanings. I just can't see how you honestly believe all this panty-waiste dilettante waffling about not having a design because its up to the open community is going to drive things forward. I read Sean's message quite differently to the way you did, apparently. I read it as we do have a design for ASU and presumably when he said we're not taking votes on piddly little implementation details this is because FIC just want to get on with things and as quickly as possible and get ASU to the sate where it's the reference-platform (with the nice-looking GUI) that you desire. Having said that, I had to read the message more than once to arrive at these conclusions. From Sean's message Will's [1] it seems to me like people at Openmoko sometimes speak a different language from the rest of us, a language with over a thousand words for blue sky. I don't want to sound negative (again!) because over the weekend I've had a bit of a revelation about Openmoko, and I'm feeling much more positive than I was a couple of days ago. I've just spent quite a bit of time trying to express that in a reply to Openmoko on Design that I sent privately to Sean; I've asked him if I can post that to the list, but I don't want want to publicly post my interpretation of Openmoko if he thinks that mischaracterises them. Initially I was really angry about the whole removal-of-the-keyboard-button-by- shadowy-designers thing, and I've come to realise it's irrelevant and that I was stupid to get upset about it. Nevertheless, the problem with the explanations made by Sean Will is that one shouldn't have to interpret statements of official policy at all. We shouldn't be free to create your own meanings from your explanations. I found these posts surprising because they seem to have borrowed their manner of response from John McCain's recent interview on gay adoption [2]. They approached some clear and specific concerns in a way that geometry does not address - had they done so tangentially it would have been a vast improvement. I think my first project will be called MokoBingo! (with the exclamation mark!)! It will check the mailing list on a regular basis and the Freerunner will make a squeaky noise when any of the following terms are encountered: Open, free, innovation, imaginative creative, community. Resources, sharing, imagination, struggle, essential ideas. Foundation, openness, art, growth. Self-organize, building dreams. Productive! Understanding, the power of open. diversity, change. Actually, you will get two squeaks for self-organize. Stroller. [1] [EMAIL PROTECTED] is an Openmoko employee, right? [2] http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=llZuoMXpr4s ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [openmoko-announce] Openmoko on Design
On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 5:22 PM, Jay Vaughan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Having worked in Open-Hardware for over 15 years now, I was, in fact, expecting a much more coherent strategy for the software platform on Freerunner than just let the community decide. Certainly, the community aspect of this project is huge; I am not saying that it is not valuable to have such great public influence on the design; just that: there *has* to be a rigid design approach to guide development, or else we end up with a torn map navigating fork-city. Jay, your negative posts on this ML do nothing but foster an unpleasant atmosphere. Last I checked, no one put a gun to your head and forced you to buy or design for the FR. If you're tired of waiting for the device to become stable, sell the phone and check back again in about a year. You're complaining that a phone 2 years in the making is still imperfect. How long did it take the newcomer Apple to complete the iphone? Iirc, they spent 4 years on iphone v1.0 and the device still needs a lot of work. It's easy to say 'come up with a plan and follow it through come rain or shine' when you're a bystander. The OM team had a solid plan when the project started. Maybe they had loftier goals than what they could accomplish being amateurs, maybe they should have hired someone with experience in embedded devices from the beginning, maybe they should have licensed qtopia, maybe they should have done a lot of other things, but you have to make mistakes in order to learn. I think it's more to their credit that the plan has gone through several changes because they learn what is possible and what isn't as they go. I'm sure if they knew then what they know now, they would have made different decisions, but then, hindsight is 20/20. I'd like to think they are a more coordinated unit than they were 2 years ago. So once again, if you believe your time and money has been wasted on the project, cut your losses now and go. Develop for another device until the neo becomes more palatable to your tastes. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [openmoko-announce] Openmoko on Design
blab blab blab Jay Vaughan If you need a benevolent dictator to lead, why not become one yourself? If you need standards why not make them? This is not a responsibility of the Openmoko team. They already gave us the damn thing to build it all on. This really is the job of the community. Stop whining and start doing the job yourself if you want it done. It's no one else's responsibility. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
