Re: Compressed SMS (and other text messages)
Tehn Yit Chin wrote: One of the things that I have just received recently is that, somehow, the network detected that I had a phone that was not able to receive a MMS. It just sent me a text message with a web address in it to retrieve it. This implementation is not too good as it immediacy of SMS is lost. iirc, thats how mms works. it sends a special kind of sms that a mms enabled device will pick up on. said sms points to a wap server that hands out the mms to the phone. at least thats my experience when getting a mms on a "very" old phone. another option is that if a mms failes to be picked up within a set number of days (or something like that), the mobile service provider will send a sms telling you to go to their webpage to read your mms. i know mine have done so in the past. even to a phone i had that was fully mms enabled. but then im not up to speed on the mms specs and design. this is purely personal experience... ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Compressed SMS (and other text messages)
One of the things that I have just received recently is that, somehow, the network detected that I had a phone that was not able to receive a MMS. It just sent me a text message with a web address in it to retrieve it. This implementation is not too good as it immediacy of SMS is lost. Can the type of phone be known by the network, if so, can we exploit to it? On 3/23/07, Jeff Andros <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On 3/22/07, Ian Stirling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Andreas Kostyrka wrote: > > * Jonathon Suggs < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070321 22:58]: > >> Andreas Kostyrka wrote: > >> My challenge is just to think bigger. Think how this could be incorporated to work with *any* phone. Then you can have a much larger group of people to brainstorm, test, and bugfix. > >> We have enough protocols and standards to support. Creating yet another one isn't really going to help that much. Also, I don't know anyone else that is planning on getting a > >> OpenMoko device, so its pretty pointless for me at this point. I know you've got to start somewhere, but starting out a battle fighting uphill isn't the best of ideas. > >> what about sacrificing a few bytes at the beginning/end of the compressed data to include "to decompress, forward to ". If you've got an openmoko/other compression capable phone, this would be disregarded, but for the vanilla phone users out there, forwarding to that number/short code would send the encoded data to a decoding server, which would then call back to the sender with the decompressed message(s). it's not really that good a solution, kind of kludgy, and it would cost whoever you sent the message to several extra texts. On the other hand, it generates some interest, and shows a tangible benefit to purchasing an openmoko phone... for the heavy sms'er this could even start saving them some cash. anyways, I got to thinking of the compatibility problem, and this popped into my head... hopefully it'll help spur some more ideas -- Jeff O|||O ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Compressed SMS (and other text messages)
On 3/22/07, Ian Stirling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Andreas Kostyrka wrote: > * Jonathon Suggs <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070321 22:58]: >> Andreas Kostyrka wrote: >> My challenge is just to think bigger. Think how this could be incorporated to work with *any* phone. Then you can have a much larger group of people to brainstorm, test, and bugfix. >> We have enough protocols and standards to support. Creating yet another one isn't really going to help that much. Also, I don't know anyone else that is planning on getting a >> OpenMoko device, so its pretty pointless for me at this point. I know you've got to start somewhere, but starting out a battle fighting uphill isn't the best of ideas. >> what about sacrificing a few bytes at the beginning/end of the compressed data to include "to decompress, forward to ". If you've got an openmoko/other compression capable phone, this would be disregarded, but for the vanilla phone users out there, forwarding to that number/short code would send the encoded data to a decoding server, which would then call back to the sender with the decompressed message(s). it's not really that good a solution, kind of kludgy, and it would cost whoever you sent the message to several extra texts. On the other hand, it generates some interest, and shows a tangible benefit to purchasing an openmoko phone... for the heavy sms'er this could even start saving them some cash. anyways, I got to thinking of the compatibility problem, and this popped into my head... hopefully it'll help spur some more ideas -- Jeff O|||O ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Compressed SMS (and other text messages)
Andreas Kostyrka wrote: * Jonathon Suggs <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070321 22:58]: Andreas Kostyrka wrote: ...plus probably a system that would automatically upload/download moko-ness information. This way all mokos could keep in touch, and people that switch phones more often would be able to tune it. First, I'm not a SMS user (I use email.), so you can take this comment for whatever its worth. This is just a very general statement, but I personally think that designing features that will only work with other OpenMoko phones is a bad idea. Yes, there are some ideas that will probably only work between similar/identical devices, but they are probably going to be very specific and not receive as much overall development time. My challenge is just to think bigger. Think how this could be incorporated to work with *any* phone. Then you can have a much larger group of people to brainstorm, test, and bugfix. We have enough protocols and standards to support. Creating yet another one isn't really going to help that much. Also, I don't know anyone else that is planning on getting a OpenMoko device, so its pretty pointless for me at this point. I know you've got to start somewhere, but starting out a battle fighting uphill isn't the best of ideas. Sorry if I completely missed the point. No, I basically agree. The problem I wanted to address is the need that some people will want to do Moko-specific stuff. For these, it would be nice to have a way to discover with a relevant probability that it's correct, if a given user is a Moko user. Actually, it's http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/My_Account may be of use. A trivial addition to this would be to add a way to look up a phone number, to determine stuff about the user that they want others to know. It is important that it ship with the (release) phone. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Compressed SMS (and other text messages)
* Jonathon Suggs <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070321 22:58]: > Andreas Kostyrka wrote: > >...plus probably a system that would automatically upload/download moko-ness > >information. > > >This way all mokos could keep in touch, and people that switch phones > >more often would be able to tune it. > > > First, I'm not a SMS user (I use email.), so you can take this comment for > whatever its worth. > > This is just a very general statement, but I personally think that designing > features that will only work with other OpenMoko phones is a bad idea. Yes, > there are some ideas that will > probably only work between similar/identical devices, but they are probably > going to be very specific and not receive as much overall development time. > > My challenge is just to think bigger. Think how this could be incorporated > to work with *any* phone. Then you can have a much larger group of people to > brainstorm, test, and bugfix. > We have enough protocols and standards to support. Creating yet another one > isn't really going to help that much. Also, I don't know anyone else that is > planning on getting a > OpenMoko device, so its pretty pointless for me at this point. I know you've > got to start somewhere, but starting out a battle fighting uphill isn't the > best of ideas. > > Sorry if I completely missed the point. No, I basically agree. The problem I wanted to address is the need that some people will want to do Moko-specific stuff. For these, it would be nice to have a way to discover with a relevant probability that it's correct, if a given user is a Moko user. Actually, it's harder, because you probably should have a token profile, because not every moko on this planet will have the same features/apps :( Andreas ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Compressed SMS (and other text messages)
On Wed, 21 Mar 2007 14:35, Jonathon Suggs wrote: My challenge is just to think bigger. Think how this could be incorporated to work with *any* phone. Then you can have a much larger group of people to brainstorm, test, and bugfix. We have enough protocols and standards to support. Creating yet another one isn't really going to help that much. Also, I don't know anyone else that is planning on getting a OpenMoko device, so its pretty pointless for me at this point. I know you've got to start somewhere, but starting out a battle fighting uphill isn't the best of ideas. Sorry if I completely missed the point. So one approach might be to investigate the java implementation on other phones and see if you can gain access to sms for receiving and sending messages. Then you could write it to test the waters on openmoko.. Then build a java version for other phones that done have openmoko installed. /shrug Its an idea anyway.. But its only worth 1 cent since I didn't take the time to see if java can do that with any of the midp/whatever version that's common now. --Tim ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Compressed SMS (and other text messages)
On Wednesday 21 March 2007 21:58:27 Jonathon Suggs wrote: > My challenge is just to think bigger. Think how this could be > incorporated to work with *any* phone. Then you can have a much larger > group of people to brainstorm, test, and bugfix. We have enough > protocols and standards to support. Creating yet another one isn't > really going to help that much. Also, I don't know anyone else that is > planning on getting a OpenMoko device, so its pretty pointless for me at > this point. I know you've got to start somewhere, but starting out a > battle fighting uphill isn't the best of ideas. I agree, instead of using a non standard SMS format, you better simply go the Jabber/$IM_OF_CHOICE route for which there are Java client's that would run on 100s of million cell phones right now. To make matters worse, it's not really feasible to send SMS (much less receive) with many Java implementations (and for good reasons) so this will mostly be constrained to OpenMoko devices... pgp3hZScqMceu.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Compressed SMS (and other text messages)
Andreas Kostyrka wrote: ...plus probably a system that would automatically upload/download moko-ness information. This way all mokos could keep in touch, and people that switch phones more often would be able to tune it. First, I'm not a SMS user (I use email.), so you can take this comment for whatever its worth. This is just a very general statement, but I personally think that designing features that will only work with other OpenMoko phones is a bad idea. Yes, there are some ideas that will probably only work between similar/identical devices, but they are probably going to be very specific and not receive as much overall development time. My challenge is just to think bigger. Think how this could be incorporated to work with *any* phone. Then you can have a much larger group of people to brainstorm, test, and bugfix. We have enough protocols and standards to support. Creating yet another one isn't really going to help that much. Also, I don't know anyone else that is planning on getting a OpenMoko device, so its pretty pointless for me at this point. I know you've got to start somewhere, but starting out a battle fighting uphill isn't the best of ideas. Sorry if I completely missed the point. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Compressed SMS (and other text messages)
* Mikko Rauhala <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070321 01:40]: > 'lo > > Didn't appear in the wiki, so I figured I'd throw it out there first: > compressed SMS for when a persistent TLS-encrypted and -compressed > Jabber connection just isn't there (eg. if it would be too expensive in > a particular locale), but you need to send "long" text messages. With > SMS, every 140 bytes costs loads of money. (Yes, it's 140 bytes, people; > 160 characters in 7-bit charsets.) > > So. We can't very well send a compression dictionary along with each > SMS. Instead, we'll start producing one upon sending the first SMS to > another Moko user (might be necessary to mark Moko peers manually, or is > there a way to identify them?). The recipient produces the same. Bigger problem: Users that switch SIM cards. E.g. I tend to switch my Austrian and German SIM cards, and the "roaming" SIM card lands in a simple and trivial SonyEricsson mobile. No way to know if a Moko user is still a Moko user. :( So at least you would need an automatic expiration, plus probably a system that would automatically upload/download moko-ness information. E.g. *) Provide a central server, where everyone can submit hashes + time values. (Security aspect: How do we make sure that I cannot submit for a different user? Sending SMS for verification might prove expensive :( ) *) Now, everytime you've got sensible connectivity, iterate through all of your contacts, and ask for the hash of the phone number, which would give you the mokoness expiration timestamp. This way all mokos could keep in touch, and people that switch phones more often would be able to tune it. Andreas > > The next message between the two will be compressed with the compression > dictionary previously generated. The new data will deterministically > modify the compression dictionary on both ends. These are cyclically > numbered and several previous versions will be stored in case the > parties get out of sync. > > Optional: Allow compression dictionary to be generated from a set of > messages, and be transferred to another phone as a baseline (presumably > when better connectivity is available). Or even as a final frozen > dictionary, which would avoid possible races and other sync problems. > > Aside: Encrypt SMSs, either with a shared secret or a one-time pad > similarly pre-copied between phones. > > That's it for tonight. Probably not very essential, but it's a thought. > > -- > Mikko Rauhala - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.iki.fi/mjr/> > Transhumanist - WTA member - http://www.transhumanism.org/> > Singularitarian - SIAI supporter - http://www.singinst.org/> > > > ___ > OpenMoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Compressed SMS (and other text messages)
Mikko Rauhala wrote: 'lo Didn't appear in the wiki, so I figured I'd throw it out there first: compressed SMS for when a persistent TLS-encrypted and -compressed Jabber connection just isn't there (eg. if it would be too expensive in a particular locale), but you need to send "long" text messages. With SMS, every 140 bytes costs loads of money. (Yes, it's 140 bytes, people; 160 characters in 7-bit charsets.) So. We can't very well send a compression dictionary along with each SMS. Instead, we'll start producing one upon sending the first SMS to another Moko user (might be necessary to mark Moko peers manually, or is there a way to identify them?). The recipient produces the same. The next message between the two will be compressed with the compression dictionary previously generated. The new data will deterministically modify the compression dictionary on both ends. These are cyclically numbered and several previous versions will be stored in case the parties get out of sync. Optional: Allow compression dictionary to be generated from a set of messages, and be transferred to another phone as a baseline (presumably when better connectivity is available). Or even as a final frozen dictionary, which would avoid possible races and other sync problems. Several stock dictionaries, with the user - or phone saying which one it prefers at the start. Users able to upload their dictionaries to a central repository if they choose. If you've got a connection, you can determine the users preferred dictionary first? ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Compressed SMS (and other text messages)
'lo Didn't appear in the wiki, so I figured I'd throw it out there first: compressed SMS for when a persistent TLS-encrypted and -compressed Jabber connection just isn't there (eg. if it would be too expensive in a particular locale), but you need to send "long" text messages. With SMS, every 140 bytes costs loads of money. (Yes, it's 140 bytes, people; 160 characters in 7-bit charsets.) So. We can't very well send a compression dictionary along with each SMS. Instead, we'll start producing one upon sending the first SMS to another Moko user (might be necessary to mark Moko peers manually, or is there a way to identify them?). The recipient produces the same. The next message between the two will be compressed with the compression dictionary previously generated. The new data will deterministically modify the compression dictionary on both ends. These are cyclically numbered and several previous versions will be stored in case the parties get out of sync. Optional: Allow compression dictionary to be generated from a set of messages, and be transferred to another phone as a baseline (presumably when better connectivity is available). Or even as a final frozen dictionary, which would avoid possible races and other sync problems. Aside: Encrypt SMSs, either with a shared secret or a one-time pad similarly pre-copied between phones. That's it for tonight. Probably not very essential, but it's a thought. -- Mikko Rauhala - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.iki.fi/mjr/> Transhumanist - WTA member - http://www.transhumanism.org/> Singularitarian - SIAI supporter - http://www.singinst.org/> ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
