Re: Fast questions about GTA03

[Flyin_bbb8]

On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 1:29 AM, Flyin_bbb8 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>
>
> On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 1:55 PM, arne anka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> > haha, but you wont even know what FPS you getting :D
>>
>> why not? there are leds and even a speaker -- a led could blink or a voice
>> count audibly ...
>>
> i don't think led will be a choice there but u can do the voice count, or
maybe spam your email with fps :D, then we can send an email with the fps
number to the glamo manufacturers and they'll say "oh well, maybe we were
really smart when we designed this" :p
(sorry for the first post, double click and both reply 'n send in same
place! )


>
>> >> > The "glamo" is the video controller.  If you disable the glamo, you
>> >> > don't get any picture.
>> >>
>> >> Well, sure, but think of the bright side: you would have infinite FPS
>> >> in this video mode!
>>
>>
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Re: Fast questions about GTA03

[Flyin_bbb8]

On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 1:55 PM, arne anka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> > haha, but you wont even know what FPS you getting :D
>
> why not? there are leds and even a speaker -- a led could blink or a voice
> count audibly ...
>
> >> > The "glamo" is the video controller.  If you disable the glamo, you
> >> > don't get any picture.
> >>
> >> Well, sure, but think of the bright side: you would have infinite FPS
> >> in this video mode!
>
>
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Re: Fast questions about GTA03

[arne anka]

> haha, but you wont even know what FPS you getting :D

why not? there are leds and even a speaker -- a led could blink or a voice  
count audibly ...

>> > The "glamo" is the video controller.  If you disable the glamo, you
>> > don't get any picture.
>>
>> Well, sure, but think of the bright side: you would have infinite FPS
>> in this video mode!


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Re: Fast questions about GTA03

[Flyin_bbb8]

haha, but you wont even know what FPS you getting :D

>
> > The "glamo" is the video controller.  If you disable the glamo, you
> > don't get any picture.
>
> Well, sure, but think of the bright side: you would have infinite FPS
> in this video mode!
> :-P
>
> Hans
>
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Re: Fast questions about GTA03

[Hans L]

On Sat, Jun 28, 2008 at 5:22 AM, Neil Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Saturday June 28, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>> I was thinking of asking the very same thing.
>> When dialing or using a calculator or sending a text message, the glamo
>> would only slow us down. Or am I mistaken?
>> Maybe it's a very stupid question (I presume if it were possible such a
>> trivial feat would already be implemented).
>
> The "glamo" is the video controller.  If you disable the glamo, you
> don't get any picture.

Well, sure, but think of the bright side: you would have infinite FPS
in this video mode!
:-P

Hans

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Re: Fast questions about GTA03

[Neil Brown]

On Saturday June 28, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I was thinking of asking the very same thing.
> When dialing or using a calculator or sending a text message, the glamo
> would only slow us down. Or am I mistaken?
> Maybe it's a very stupid question (I presume if it were possible such a
> trivial feat would already be implemented).

The "glamo" is the video controller.  If you disable the glamo, you
don't get any picture.

NeilBrown

> 
> y
> 
> 
> On Sat, Jun 28, 2008 at 11:21 AM, Atilla Filiz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> 
> > Can we just disable glamo with software and use it only when profitable?

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Re: Fast questions about GTA03

[Yorick Moko]

I was thinking of asking the very same thing.
When dialing or using a calculator or sending a text message, the glamo
would only slow us down. Or am I mistaken?
Maybe it's a very stupid question (I presume if it were possible such a
trivial feat would already be implemented).

y


On Sat, Jun 28, 2008 at 11:21 AM, Atilla Filiz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> Can we just disable glamo with software and use it only when profitable?
>
>
> On Sat, Jun 28, 2008 at 1:46 AM, Sean Moss-Pultz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
>> On 6/27/08 Mikko Rauhala wrote:
>> > On pe, 2008-06-27 at 13:56 +0200, Lucas Bonnet wrote:
>> > > > Sean Moss-Pultz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>> > >> > > I encourage you to get involved today. We need your help.
>> > Waiting for
>> > >> > > GTA03 is a possibility of course, but keep in mind how long it
>> > took us
>> > >> > > to go from 01 to 02.
>> > > >
>> > > > Sure, how can we help?
>> >
>> > If I may interject, I would presume Sean here is talking about buying
>> > what's available now (instead of next year, even with the GTA03 not
>> > being a major improvement anyway in most respects), and, you know,
>> > running with it.
>>
>> Exactly. We need to sell phones to stay in business and continue these
>> ideas.
>>
>> So think of your USD $399 as a donation, if you like, towards your GTA03
>> ;-)
>>
>>   -Sean
>>
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>
>
>
> --
> -
> Bu mesaj UTF-8 ile kodlanmıştır
> -
> Atilla Filiz
> Technische Universiteit Eindhoven
> Embedded Systems, Master's Programme
> 
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Re: Fast questions about GTA03

[Atilla Filiz]

Can we just disable glamo with software and use it only when profitable?

On Sat, Jun 28, 2008 at 1:46 AM, Sean Moss-Pultz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On 6/27/08 Mikko Rauhala wrote:
> > On pe, 2008-06-27 at 13:56 +0200, Lucas Bonnet wrote:
> > > > Sean Moss-Pultz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > >> > > I encourage you to get involved today. We need your help.
> > Waiting for
> > >> > > GTA03 is a possibility of course, but keep in mind how long it
> > took us
> > >> > > to go from 01 to 02.
> > > >
> > > > Sure, how can we help?
> >
> > If I may interject, I would presume Sean here is talking about buying
> > what's available now (instead of next year, even with the GTA03 not
> > being a major improvement anyway in most respects), and, you know,
> > running with it.
>
> Exactly. We need to sell phones to stay in business and continue these
> ideas.
>
> So think of your USD $399 as a donation, if you like, towards your GTA03
> ;-)
>
>   -Sean
>
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-- 
-
Bu mesaj UTF-8 ile kodlanmıştır
-
Atilla Filiz
Technische Universiteit Eindhoven
Embedded Systems, Master's Programme

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Re: Fast questions about GTA03

[Sean Moss-Pultz]

On 6/27/08 Mikko Rauhala wrote:
> On pe, 2008-06-27 at 13:56 +0200, Lucas Bonnet wrote:
> > > Sean Moss-Pultz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> >> > > I encourage you to get involved today. We need your help. 
> Waiting for 
> >> > > GTA03 is a possibility of course, but keep in mind how long it 
> took us 
> >> > > to go from 01 to 02.
> > > 
> > > Sure, how can we help?
> 
> If I may interject, I would presume Sean here is talking about buying
> what's available now (instead of next year, even with the GTA03 not
> being a major improvement anyway in most respects), and, you know,
> running with it.

Exactly. We need to sell phones to stay in business and continue these 
ideas.

So think of your USD $399 as a donation, if you like, towards your GTA03 ;-)

   -Sean

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Re: Fast questions about GTA03

[Yuval Levy]

Hans L wrote:
 > Hehe, I just had another idea related to this.  You could use this 360
 > "window" behavior to make an interactive Where's Waldo

 - select Flash from the help, 
and click around =8^D

Hans L wrote:
> That would be pretty cool to use the FreeRunner as a "window" to a 360
> scene like this.  Hold the phone in front of you and spin around: the
> accelerometers could detect movement, and adjust the view as you
> rotate. Angle it up or down, and the view would again correspond.

oh yes, pretty cool indeed.

It has already been done with Android and Google's StreetView - check 
the video at


but given Marcus Bauer's comments about the glamo chip (thank you!) I'm 
now inclined to pass on the GTA02 and wait for whatever comes next, 
hoping for serious improvements. My alternative is one of those UMPCs 
such as the OQO, but no accelerometer, GPS and GSM :-(

Also I hoped to get a Google Summer of Code student to work on the 
viewer this year as well, like we had one last year. But my student 
(excellent guy) bailed out (and I don't blame him - the alternative 
opportunity was too good for him and I would have pushed him out had he 
not taken it. 

Yuv - going back to the sidelines and waiting for an improved hardware 
specs.

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Re: Fast questions about GTA03

[Hans L]

> That would be pretty cool to use the FreeRunner as a "window" to a 360
> scene like this.  Hold the phone in front of you and spin around: the
> accelerometers could detect movement, and adjust the view as you
> rotate. Angle it up or down, and the view would again correspond.
>
> Hans
>

Hehe, I just had another idea related to this.  You could use this 360
"window" behavior to make an interactive Where's Waldo(or similar non
copyright-infringing name ;-) ) type game.  It would be pretty funny
to see someone play it, rotating and tilting all over the place to
find him.  Also, moving the phone towards or away from your body could
be used for zoom.

Hans

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Re: Fast questions about GTA03

[Hans L]

On Fri, Jun 27, 2008 at 4:00 PM, Yuval Levy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> my personal interest for the OpenMoko is as a device to display Virtual
> Reality (VR). That's a 3D application where a picture is mapped on a
> sphere or cube and rotated by the user. 3D-accelerated displays have a
> much higher frame per second (FPS) resulting in smoother viewing or
> faster panning.
>
> You can see an example of such a VR at
>  - click on the thumbnail to
> enter the VR in one of the four main technologies available:
> - QuickTime
> - Java
> - Flash
> - Shockwave

That would be pretty cool to use the FreeRunner as a "window" to a 360
scene like this.  Hold the phone in front of you and spin around: the
accelerometers could detect movement, and adjust the view as you
rotate. Angle it up or down, and the view would again correspond.

Hans

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Re: Fast questions about GTA03

[Marcus Bauer]

On Fri, 2008-06-27 at 17:00 -0400, Yuval Levy wrote:

> my personal interest for the OpenMoko is as a device to display Virtual 
> Reality (VR). That's a 3D application where a picture is mapped on a 
> sphere or cube and rotated by the user. 3D-accelerated displays have a 
> much higher frame per second (FPS) resulting in smoother viewing or 
> faster panning.

the glamo chip is 3D but there is no driver on openmoko for using it.
due to the way it is connected to the cpu the glamo chip slows the
freerunner *down*. despite the faster cpu the freeruner is ~50% slower
than the 1973. the cpu is blocked during any kind of graphics i/o and
there have been discussions to simply remove it in order to speed the
freerunner up.


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Re: Fast questions about GTA03

[Yuval Levy]

arne anka wrote:
> to be honest -- i never really could figure out what's the diff between 2d  
> and 3d acceleration.
> so, what limitations does it impose?

in a nutshell: 3D acceleration builds quickly 3D models on the display. 
Displaying a 3D application on non-accelerated video is slow and CPU 
(i.e. battery) intensive. 3D applications include games but not only.

my personal interest for the OpenMoko is as a device to display Virtual 
Reality (VR). That's a 3D application where a picture is mapped on a 
sphere or cube and rotated by the user. 3D-accelerated displays have a 
much higher frame per second (FPS) resulting in smoother viewing or 
faster panning.

You can see an example of such a VR at 
 - click on the thumbnail to 
enter the VR in one of the four main technologies available:
- QuickTime
- Java
- Flash
- Shockwave

If you are on Windows or on Mac, Shockwave is the only 3D accelerated 
viewer and you will see how much smoother it is than the rest of the 
pack (click on the help link to change viewer).

If you are on Linux,  can display QuickTime VR 
with 3d acceleration. In SVN there is even a version that will deal with 
the Shockwave format as well.

I recently displayed a VR panorama with Java on a Nokia cell phone 
 
the viewer makes use of Java's 3D engine, though I am not sure if it 
uses a 3D accelerator on my specific phone (or on any phone). Java and 
Flash are just introducing 3D acceleration (for PCs) in their upcoming 
versions.

Yuv







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Re: Fast questions about GTA03

[Brian C]

Lucas Bonnet wrote:
> Sean Moss-Pultz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> 
>> I encourage you to get involved today. We need your help. Waiting for 
>> GTA03 is a possibility of course, but keep in mind how long it took us 
>> to go from 01 to 02.
> 
> Sure, how can we help?

Well, from the looks of the screenshots, Freerunners will ship without a
GUI email program or web browser.  (Is that right?)  If so, I'd think
that everyone who can contribute to a software update that includes
those apps should.  They seem fairly critical to me for any smartphone.

I would also rate getting the Glamo further figured out so that it will
do video playback as well as it's able is important.

Note: many people on this list don't care at all about video.  I
understand that.  However, I'm thinking more of public perception.  If
Slashdot/Engadget/Gizmodo etc. read reviews of the device that say, as
shipped, it can't do email, web browsing, or video playback, then a lot
of people will simply ignore Openmoko for good.  It would be better for
the community if it instead attracted as many people as possible.  It's
hard to overcome a bad first impression, but if some important software
updates become available within a month or two, there will still be a
chance to bring people around.

Brian

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Re: Fast questions about GTA03

[arne anka]

>>  - new case (might include a holder for a plastic stylus)

i second that, but it was already mentioned several times.

> Something not resembling a giant keychain holder would be great ;)

you don't know my keychain ;-)

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Re: Fast questions about GTA03

[Marcus Bauer]

On Fri, 2008-06-27 at 15:09 +0300, Mikko Rauhala wrote:
> On pe, 2008-06-27 at 13:56 +0200, Lucas Bonnet wrote:
> > Sean Moss-Pultz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > > I encourage you to get involved today. We need your help. Waiting for 
> > > GTA03 is a possibility of course, but keep in mind how long it took us 
> > > to go from 01 to 02.
> > 
> > Sure, how can we help?
> 
> If I may interject, I would presume Sean here is talking about buying
> what's available now (instead of next year, even with the GTA03 not
> being a major improvement anyway in most respects), and, you know,
> running with it.

Lucas is one of the heads behind bearstech, one of the European
distributors. I guess he fully supports your statement ;-)


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Re: Fast questions about GTA03

[Adilson Oliveira]

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Hash: SHA1

Flemming Richter Mikkelsen escreveu:

>  - new case (might include a holder for a plastic stylus)

Something not resembling a giant keychain holder would be great ;)

[]s

Adilson.
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Re: Fast questions about GTA03

[Mikko Rauhala]

On pe, 2008-06-27 at 13:56 +0200, Lucas Bonnet wrote:
> Sean Moss-Pultz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > I encourage you to get involved today. We need your help. Waiting for 
> > GTA03 is a possibility of course, but keep in mind how long it took us 
> > to go from 01 to 02.
> 
> Sure, how can we help?

If I may interject, I would presume Sean here is talking about buying
what's available now (instead of next year, even with the GTA03 not
being a major improvement anyway in most respects), and, you know,
running with it.

I'll be having my summer vacation starting today, and when I get my FRs
from Pulster, that'll hopefully revitalize my motivation to code a bit
on that mldiff/rsync proxy and a realtime net-shared shopping list thing
I've been thinking about.

-- 
Mikko Rauhala <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
University of Helsinki


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Re: Fast questions about GTA03

[Lucas Bonnet]

Sean Moss-Pultz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> I encourage you to get involved today. We need your help. Waiting for 
> GTA03 is a possibility of course, but keep in mind how long it took us 
> to go from 01 to 02.

Sure, how can we help?


Regards,
-- 
Lucas


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Re: Fast questions about GTA03

[Pawel Kowalak]

On Jun 27, 2008, at 12:46 PM, arne anka wrote:

>> Some pros. with having the glamo:
>>  - HW scaling and 2D rotation (this is cool)
>>  - 2D acceleration (this is also cool)
>
> to be honest -- i never really could figure out what's the diff  
> between 2d
> and 3d acceleration.
> so, what limitations does it impose?

Acceleration is simply using GPU for graphics operations instead of  
CPU. 3D accelerator accelerates 3D operations (rendering 3D objects)  
and 2D accelerator accelerates 2D operations (bit blits, line  
drawing, clipping etc.). On modern computers, 2D graphics are  
simulated using 3D without perspective, because 2D accelerators were  
almost dropped years ago by graphic cards vendors.

I hope I didn't simplified it too much. ;)

BR,
Pawel

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Re: Fast questions about GTA03

[prishelec]

No matter how good gta03 is going to be i'm buying 02 :-)
Even christmas is to long to wait.

On 6/27/08, Flemming Richter Mikkelsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 2008-06-27, Francesco Cat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Lol, xmas is too far away :D I'm gonna buy this one I think...
>> Hopefully the Glamo will allow for media to stream regularly, they
>> would have removed there was no way to have a 25 FPS video I think.
> Actually, video will go better without the glamo because the bus
> will be faster. Anyway, 2D works well with the glamo and the
> chip is not that bad.
>
> Some pros. with having the glamo:
>  - HW scaling and 2D rotation (this is cool)
>  - 2D acceleration (this is also cool)
>
> Some cons.:
>  - Power (80mW?)
>  - Bus limit
>  - Not open (e.g. no 3D, etc)
>
> So if you do not want to view a lot of videos, the
> glamo is a good thing (fast zooming of web pages,
> etc).
>
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Re: Fast questions about GTA03

[arne anka]

> Some pros. with having the glamo:
>  - HW scaling and 2D rotation (this is cool)
>  - 2D acceleration (this is also cool)

to be honest -- i never really could figure out what's the diff between 2d  
and 3d acceleration.
so, what limitations does it impose?

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Re: Fast questions about GTA03

[Flemming Richter Mikkelsen]

On 2008-06-27, Francesco Cat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Lol, xmas is too far away :D I'm gonna buy this one I think...
> Hopefully the Glamo will allow for media to stream regularly, they
> would have removed there was no way to have a 25 FPS video I think.
Actually, video will go better without the glamo because the bus
will be faster. Anyway, 2D works well with the glamo and the
chip is not that bad.

Some pros. with having the glamo:
 - HW scaling and 2D rotation (this is cool)
 - 2D acceleration (this is also cool)

Some cons.:
 - Power (80mW?)
 - Bus limit
 - Not open (e.g. no 3D, etc)

So if you do not want to view a lot of videos, the
glamo is a good thing (fast zooming of web pages,
etc).

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Re: Fast questions about GTA03

[Sean Moss-Pultz]

Francesco Cat wrote:
> As I have understood from past ML, the GTA03 will be the enhanced vers
> of FreeRunner. I think a lot of undecided people like me would like
> clarification about what the GTA03 might be.
> Very fast and simple questions:
> -do we have a rough estimation for when the GTA03 will be out?
> -the issue with slow bus for Glamo is gonna be resolved by changing
> the bus or eliminating the Glamo?
> -will usb still be 1.1?
> -will the price be different? If it is gonna change, some kind of
> estimation would be nice.
> 
> Also, if there are important things I'm missing reply and add, thanks :)

Francesco

I encourage you to get involved today. We need your help. Waiting for 
GTA03 is a possibility of course, but keep in mind how long it took us 
to go from 01 to 02.

Amateurs, remember? ;-)

   -Sean

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Re: Fast questions about GTA03

[Francesco Cat]

Lol, xmas is too far away :D I'm gonna buy this one I think...
Hopefully the Glamo will allow for media to stream regularly, they
would have removed there was no way to have a 25 FPS video I think.
Plus, we have plenty of hackers ready to work ;)

2008/6/27 Flemming Richter Mikkelsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> On 2008-06-27, Francesco Cat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> As I have understood from past ML, the GTA03 will be the enhanced vers
>> of FreeRunner. I think a lot of undecided people like me would like
>> clarification about what the GTA03 might be.
>> Very fast and simple questions:
>> -do we have a rough estimation for when the GTA03 will be out?
> Some guess it will be out around Christmas.
>> -the issue with slow bus for Glamo is gonna be resolved by changing
>> the bus or eliminating the Glamo?
> Yes:)
>> -will usb still be 1.1?
> Yes
>> -will the price be different? If it is gonna change, some kind of
>> estimation would be nice.
>>
>> Also, if there are important things I'm missing reply and add, thanks :)
> There will be minimal changes:
>  - new battery
>  - new GSM module which supports EDGE
>  - mini jack instead of micro jack
>  - no glamo -> much better for video playback, etc.
>  - new case (might include a holder for a plastic stylus)
>  - the rest of the phone will stay unchanged in order to
>   save costs.
>
> All this information has at some point been written on
> the mailing list. It is important to say that THINGS
> CHANGE FAST. So there is no garatee that this is
> correct. It was only ideas, but I guess they are very
> likely to be true.
>
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> community@lists.openmoko.org
> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
>

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Re: Fast questions about GTA03

[Flemming Richter Mikkelsen]

On 2008-06-27, Francesco Cat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> As I have understood from past ML, the GTA03 will be the enhanced vers
> of FreeRunner. I think a lot of undecided people like me would like
> clarification about what the GTA03 might be.
> Very fast and simple questions:
> -do we have a rough estimation for when the GTA03 will be out?
Some guess it will be out around Christmas.
> -the issue with slow bus for Glamo is gonna be resolved by changing
> the bus or eliminating the Glamo?
Yes:)
> -will usb still be 1.1?
Yes
> -will the price be different? If it is gonna change, some kind of
> estimation would be nice.
>
> Also, if there are important things I'm missing reply and add, thanks :)
There will be minimal changes:
 - new battery
 - new GSM module which supports EDGE
 - mini jack instead of micro jack
 - no glamo -> much better for video playback, etc.
 - new case (might include a holder for a plastic stylus)
 - the rest of the phone will stay unchanged in order to
   save costs.

All this information has at some point been written on
the mailing list. It is important to say that THINGS
CHANGE FAST. So there is no garatee that this is
correct. It was only ideas, but I guess they are very
likely to be true.

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Fast questions about GTA03

[Francesco Cat]

As I have understood from past ML, the GTA03 will be the enhanced vers
of FreeRunner. I think a lot of undecided people like me would like
clarification about what the GTA03 might be.
Very fast and simple questions:
-do we have a rough estimation for when the GTA03 will be out?
-the issue with slow bus for Glamo is gonna be resolved by changing
the bus or eliminating the Glamo?
-will usb still be 1.1?
-will the price be different? If it is gonna change, some kind of
estimation would be nice.

Also, if there are important things I'm missing reply and add, thanks :)

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