Re: New case (was Re: Freerunner's Future)
Werner has the ability to embed the debug board "on board" On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 7:56 PM, Jianming.Liu wrote: > > Hi, I have posted the symbols and schematic of the debug board v3 in the > list > of GTA02-Core, and I think that could be a part of the GTA02-Core, or we > could start a new debug board project? Thank you. > > Werner Almesberger wrote: > > > > [ Let's give threads that change direction a clearer name than just > > "Freerunner's Future" ] > > > > Fabian Sch?lzel wrote: > >> I'm not an engineer, but a draftsman, so I could also help with the > >> mechanical design and modeling of the case and other things related > >> to the project. > > > > Great ! I think "redoing" the GTA02 case should be a project on its > > own, independent from gta02-core or such. > > > > There are no technical dependencies anyway - gta02-core will fit > > into any GTA02 case and a new GTA02 case can host any GTA02 board. > > > > Two considerations: > > > > I think just making a case equivalent to the existing one would be > > an interesting enough task on its own, without adding any changes > > that aren't motivated by feasibility (machinability, etc.) alone. > > > > Ideally, someone who's already experienced the whole process from > > design to prototype production getting done would take care of > > coordinating that project. > > > > - Werner > > > > ___ > > Openmoko community mailing list > > community@lists.openmoko.org > > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > > > > > > -- > View this message in context: > http://n2.nabble.com/Freerunner%27s-Future-tp3012885p3186744.html > Sent from the Openmoko Community mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: New case (was Re: Freerunner's Future)
Hi, I have posted the symbols and schematic of the debug board v3 in the list of GTA02-Core, and I think that could be a part of the GTA02-Core, or we could start a new debug board project? Thank you. Werner Almesberger wrote: > > [ Let's give threads that change direction a clearer name than just > "Freerunner's Future" ] > > Fabian Sch?lzel wrote: >> I'm not an engineer, but a draftsman, so I could also help with the >> mechanical design and modeling of the case and other things related >> to the project. > > Great ! I think "redoing" the GTA02 case should be a project on its > own, independent from gta02-core or such. > > There are no technical dependencies anyway - gta02-core will fit > into any GTA02 case and a new GTA02 case can host any GTA02 board. > > Two considerations: > > I think just making a case equivalent to the existing one would be > an interesting enough task on its own, without adding any changes > that aren't motivated by feasibility (machinability, etc.) alone. > > Ideally, someone who's already experienced the whole process from > design to prototype production getting done would take care of > coordinating that project. > > - Werner > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > > -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/Freerunner%27s-Future-tp3012885p3186744.html Sent from the Openmoko Community mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Freerunner's Future - sony ericsson evilness
my favourite sony ericsson bug is the one where it waits till your "memory stick" (blergh) is almost totally full (with precious memories etc), and then wraps round and overwrites the FAT, followed by a "this card is not formatted" message. I'd link to the bug report but, erm, well, there is no bug tracker. I discovered it when trying to fill mine up with inconsequential mp3s, my non techie friend tripped over it when she had filled it up with photos. Thank f* for linux, dd and those clever recovery tools. Tim Abell Al Johnson wrote: On Saturday 06 June 2009, Ben Wong wrote: My biggest disappointment has been the fact that my Openmoko Freerunner (which I've had since helping form the Austin buying group) is still not _nearly_ as reliable as any cheap simple handset I can get for 10% of the cost. Not to disagree, I'd like to share that in the short time I've been using my Freerunner as my only phone it has been much, MUCH, more reliable than my previous "smart" phone. I was particularly amused to find a friend's Sony-Ericsson has the Buzz issue. Another bug is a tendency to switch network in the middle of a call when roaming, leaving both ends with a silent line. Then there was the long list of niggles and frustrations...at least we get to do something about (most of) our bugs. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: New case (was Re: Freerunner's Future)
And to reflect the "openness" of the FR it would be nice to have a (semi) transparent (see trough) case. Kind regards, Ed David Ford wrote: > to whomever does this, please put a small stylus into a recess in the > new case :) > > On 06/18/09 20:18, Werner Almesberger wrote: >> [ Let's give threads that change direction a clearer name than just >> "Freerunner's Future" ] >> >> Fabian Sch?lzel wrote: >> >>> I'm not an engineer, but a draftsman, so I could also help with the >>> mechanical design and modeling of the case and other things related >>> to the project. >>> >> >> Great ! I think "redoing" the GTA02 case should be a project on its >> own, independent from gta02-core or such. >> > > [...] > > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: New case (was Re: Freerunner's Future)
to whomever does this, please put a small stylus into a recess in the new case :) On 06/18/09 20:18, Werner Almesberger wrote: [ Let's give threads that change direction a clearer name than just "Freerunner's Future" ] Fabian Sch?lzel wrote: I'm not an engineer, but a draftsman, so I could also help with the mechanical design and modeling of the case and other things related to the project. Great ! I think "redoing" the GTA02 case should be a project on its own, independent from gta02-core or such. [...] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
New case (was Re: Freerunner's Future)
[ Let's give threads that change direction a clearer name than just "Freerunner's Future" ] Fabian Sch?lzel wrote: > I'm not an engineer, but a draftsman, so I could also help with the > mechanical design and modeling of the case and other things related > to the project. Great ! I think "redoing" the GTA02 case should be a project on its own, independent from gta02-core or such. There are no technical dependencies anyway - gta02-core will fit into any GTA02 case and a new GTA02 case can host any GTA02 board. Two considerations: I think just making a case equivalent to the existing one would be an interesting enough task on its own, without adding any changes that aren't motivated by feasibility (machinability, etc.) alone. Ideally, someone who's already experienced the whole process from design to prototype production getting done would take care of coordinating that project. - Werner ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Freerunner's Future
On Jun 11 20:20-0300, Werner Almesberger wrote: > Even in the hardware area, there's more than just low-risk > implementation projects. E.g., there should also be activities that > take on the risky bits and bring them under control. Such "pioneer" > efforts can then be integrated into the next "safe" design. I would really like to see this paradigm expanded to other types of currently-proprietary hardware. You could even rip off large parts of the current design :). As an example: An openmoko HAM radio. Commercially-produced amateur radio equipment is quite proprietary (and expensive, since it's a fairly small market). Most of them have a very limited feature set, partly because of software limitations. Since the nature of amateur radio is to promote experimentation and emergency communications, a device like the openmoko (replacing the GSM radio with hardware to handle HAM radio, SDR?; and a larger form factor) would be highly useful. To give you an idea on pricing, there is a popular (high-end) $400 handheld right now that can handle 2 receive channels, bluetooth (w/$70 add-on board), gps (w/$70 gps receiver add-on for you to accidentally break off the top), APRS messaging (easily handled by a PIC microcontroller... imagine what a real processor could do), and a 1.3"x.8" dot matrix display. -- Eldon Koyle -- BOFH excuse #185: system consumed all the paper for paging ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Freerunner's Future
flush screen would be a winner for me On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 9:42 AM, Steve Mosher wrote: > Tully have some very good ideas on how to change the 02 case and get rid > of some annoyances-- > bring the screen flush with the surface, reduce the parts count. And I > had a camera solution that > looked promising. Write me if you decide to go down this path and I'll > explain our ideas > > Fabian Schölzel wrote: > > Werner Almesberger wrote: > > > >> But I think a case-making project that follows the same approach as > >> gta02-core, namely reconstructing and prototyping the existing > >> design with Free tools (and making some small changes) could be > >> rather useful for establishing the know-how that can later be used > >> for more ambitious work. > >> > > > > I'm not an engineer, but a draftsman, so I could also help with the > mechanical > > design and modeling of the case and other things related to the project. > I > > will take a look at the mentioned CAD-Tools. > > > > Fabian Schölzel > > > > ___ > > Openmoko community mailing list > > community@lists.openmoko.org > > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > > > > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Freerunner's Future
Tully have some very good ideas on how to change the 02 case and get rid of some annoyances-- bring the screen flush with the surface, reduce the parts count. And I had a camera solution that looked promising. Write me if you decide to go down this path and I'll explain our ideas Fabian Schölzel wrote: > Werner Almesberger wrote: > >> But I think a case-making project that follows the same approach as >> gta02-core, namely reconstructing and prototyping the existing >> design with Free tools (and making some small changes) could be >> rather useful for establishing the know-how that can later be used >> for more ambitious work. >> > > I'm not an engineer, but a draftsman, so I could also help with the > mechanical > design and modeling of the case and other things related to the project. I > will take a look at the mentioned CAD-Tools. > > Fabian Schölzel > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Freerunner's Future
Werner Almesberger wrote: > But I think a case-making project that follows the same approach as > gta02-core, namely reconstructing and prototyping the existing > design with Free tools (and making some small changes) could be > rather useful for establishing the know-how that can later be used > for more ambitious work. I'm not an engineer, but a draftsman, so I could also help with the mechanical design and modeling of the case and other things related to the project. I will take a look at the mentioned CAD-Tools. Fabian Schölzel ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Freerunner's Future
> BTW, looking at http://code.google.com/p/heekscad/ and > http://www.salome-platform.org/home/presentation/geom/ > both are based on the same solid modeller: Open CASCADE > (http://www.opencascade.org, http://opencascade.com/) > From that point of view, it's the same technology behind both. Yep, if needed we can do the modelling in Salome and use HeeksCad ( HeeksCNC ) for the CAM. Adolph ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Freerunner's Future
Am Freitag, 12. Juni 2009 schrieb Werner Almesberger: > The most promising one seems to be HeeksCAD. It has fairly > comprehensive CAM integration and can do parametric modeling via > Python scripts. Salome also looks quite powerful and is perhaps > more mature but appears to lack CAM integration. BTW, looking at http://code.google.com/p/heekscad/ and http://www.salome-platform.org/home/presentation/geom/ both are based on the same solid modeller: Open CASCADE (http://www.opencascade.org, http://opencascade.com/) >From that point of view, it's the same technology behind both. Martin -- _ Martin Bernreuther martinb...@web.de ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Freerunner's Future
Adolph J. Vogel wrote: > As a new freerunner owner :) and as a mechanical engineering masters > student, I think this might be an ideal place for me to contribute to > the freerunners future. :) Yeah ! You may even be able to make this count as a semester or final project, or similar. > I have done some googling on free cad software, anything beyond 2D is > severly lacking behind their propriety counterparts. I will look into > them some more, maybe there are some new projects that we can use. The most promising one seems to be HeeksCAD. It has fairly comprehensive CAM integration and can do parametric modeling via Python scripts. Salome also looks quite powerful and is perhaps more mature but appears to lack CAM integration. - Werner ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Freerunner's Future
> Also, we haven't touched the whole area of case design and > manufacturing yet. As a new freerunner owner :) and as a mechanical engineering masters student, I think this might be an ideal place for me to contribute to the freerunners future. :) > There's a number of Free CAD tools that should be up to the task. I have done some googling on free cad software, anything beyond 2D is severly lacking behind their propriety counterparts. I will look into them some more, maybe there are some new projects that we can use. Anyway, got to get back to my open source CFD workshop :) Regards Adolph ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Freerunner's Future
Jeremy McNaughton wrote: > 1. That the open source hardware development processes pioneered by > gta02-core get formalized as part of the structure of the new > organization There's always room for improvements, so I wouldn't nail down too many details. But the overall goals, i.e., the use of Open Source wherever possible, yes. > 2. That the people who are working on the gta02-core will continue to > work together as part of the new community organization. Definitely, yes. > Of course, the community organization (heh... we need a name!) should > encompass more than just hardware. The open hardware part will likely > just be a part of what the organization does. Even in the hardware area, there's more than just low-risk implementation projects. E.g., there should also be activities that take on the risky bits and bring them under control. Such "pioneer" efforts can then be integrated into the next "safe" design. Also, we haven't touched the whole area of case design and manufacturing yet. There's a number of Free CAD tools that should be up to the task. We've briefly discussed them on the "gta03" list a while ago. Also turning a CAD design into a prototype is not an impossible task. There are relatively inexpensive CNC mills (i.e., within the reach of many hobbyists) that should be able to make reasonably good prototypes. Access to mills or 3D printers may also exist through academic institutions or projects like "Fab Lab": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fab_lab I don't know if anyone actually made a case from the CAD files Openmoko released about a year ago. The CAD files themselves may not be directly useful with Free CAD tools except for making very minor changes. But I think a case-making project that follows the same approach as gta02-core, namely reconstructing and prototyping the existing design with Free tools (and making some small changes) could be rather useful for establishing the know-how that can later be used for more ambitious work. - Werner ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Freerunner's Future
On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 10:31 AM, Werner Almesberger wrote: > Jeremy McNaughton wrote: >> Scope: What will our mission statement be? Is the foundation just >> to support the gta02-core project, > > Just a quick remark: please don't concentrate too much on > gta02-core when planning organizational structures for the > future. > > The focus of gta02-core is not on making the next big phone but > on opening the process. The few pieces of hardware gta02-core > is planned to produce would be a proof of concept that we've > succeeded to meet that specific goal but they will likely be of > little practical interest to anyone who is looking for a > substantial improvement on the GTA02 as a day to day phone. > > Once gta02-core is complete, there are several paths that could > lead to a mass-produced phone. Some could be very quick, others > quite slow. Mass-producing a phone requires a lot of money, so > at that stage, the direction would also depend on the goals of > investors or sponsors and on an assessment of the target > markets. > > An organisational structure should allow us to keep assets > across projects. This will also encourage keeping technical > projects small and focused. > > I use gta02-core as a reference when discussion specific needs, > because of the project's narrow scope. If a plan doesn't work > for gta02-core, it probably doesn't work at all. But a plan > that only works for gta02-core wouldn't be much better either. > > - Werner > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > I guess what I'm hoping for in regards to gta02-core and the community organization would be some combination of these two things: 1. That the open source hardware development processes pioneered by gta02-core get formalized as part of the structure of the new organization 2. That the people who are working on the gta02-core will continue to work together as part of the new community organization. This would mean incorporating the lessons learned by the gta02-core team into the new organization. It would also mean creating an organization that can effectively facilitate this type of open hardware development. Of course, the community organization (heh... we need a name!) should encompass more than just hardware. The open hardware part will likely just be a part of what the organization does. There's also a need to support and connect developers, themers, writers of documentation. And of course there's end-users like me who could benefit from a organization we can be a part of and connect with others through. This might be a tall order to fill. If the organization is too broadly focused it could end up going nowhere at all. Jeremy ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Freerunner's Future
I would offer this. The vision that Werner has, shared by a good number of us ( hat tip to Dr Schaller) is to create a process whereby the design effort can be shared collaboratively. As I look at the EE design process it is currently controlled at several points by closed proprietary systems. These chains will will not be broken all at once. Lets take the layout tool. Layout tools are expensive software. You may be a EE with a great idea, but your stuck in schematic land if you dont have a layout tool. Now the output of layout tools ( gerber file) is rather open and standard. There are many elements here where a community effort can help. At some point I will put something together to describe this process, the tools, the resources, and you can all see how close we are to an open process. If folks dont want to wait for me, they can pitch in and describe the process themselves and put it in the wiki. So, generally speaking I'd say the mission is opening the design process to allow for collaborative open source hardware development. On another thread people are speculating about Project B. some interesting speculations. Imagine a world where those speculations could be turned into working prototypes and then products.. all done the open source way. just a thought. Werner Almesberger wrote: > Jeremy McNaughton wrote: > >> Scope: What will our mission statement be? Is the foundation just >> to support the gta02-core project, >> > > Just a quick remark: please don't concentrate too much on > gta02-core when planning organizational structures for the > future. > > The focus of gta02-core is not on making the next big phone but > on opening the process. The few pieces of hardware gta02-core > is planned to produce would be a proof of concept that we've > succeeded to meet that specific goal but they will likely be of > little practical interest to anyone who is looking for a > substantial improvement on the GTA02 as a day to day phone. > > Once gta02-core is complete, there are several paths that could > lead to a mass-produced phone. Some could be very quick, others > quite slow. Mass-producing a phone requires a lot of money, so > at that stage, the direction would also depend on the goals of > investors or sponsors and on an assessment of the target > markets. > > An organisational structure should allow us to keep assets > across projects. This will also encourage keeping technical > projects small and focused. > > I use gta02-core as a reference when discussion specific needs, > because of the project's narrow scope. If a plan doesn't work > for gta02-core, it probably doesn't work at all. But a plan > that only works for gta02-core wouldn't be much better either. > > - Werner > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Freerunner's Future
Jeremy McNaughton wrote: > Scope: What will our mission statement be? Is the foundation just > to support the gta02-core project, Just a quick remark: please don't concentrate too much on gta02-core when planning organizational structures for the future. The focus of gta02-core is not on making the next big phone but on opening the process. The few pieces of hardware gta02-core is planned to produce would be a proof of concept that we've succeeded to meet that specific goal but they will likely be of little practical interest to anyone who is looking for a substantial improvement on the GTA02 as a day to day phone. Once gta02-core is complete, there are several paths that could lead to a mass-produced phone. Some could be very quick, others quite slow. Mass-producing a phone requires a lot of money, so at that stage, the direction would also depend on the goals of investors or sponsors and on an assessment of the target markets. An organisational structure should allow us to keep assets across projects. This will also encourage keeping technical projects small and focused. I use gta02-core as a reference when discussion specific needs, because of the project's narrow scope. If a plan doesn't work for gta02-core, it probably doesn't work at all. But a plan that only works for gta02-core wouldn't be much better either. - Werner ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Freerunner's Future
On Wednesday 10 June 2009 09:59:00 Christoph Pulster wrote: > > it started with Sean's Vision. Free the Phone. > > Thanks for the very interesting inside views about your decisions, I > really appreciate your way of explaining how things worked out. > I have to revise my opinion about your marketing strategy in some way. > "Free your phone" is a nice slogan and idea to archive publicity. > > The big Unknown is and will be the GSM chip which is under NDA. > Freerunner may phone the Whitehouse anytime. Even if it could (power control is under the AP's control), it would not be able to tell something, since the audio path is as well under the application processor's control... :M: ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Freerunner's Future
Many thanks to you Christoph, I always make a habit of returning to decisions I have played a role in to review my thinking and uncover the mistakes I may have made so that I can make new ones the next time around. ( hat tip to Werner) I like very much your idea of a multi purpose platform. Christoph Pulster wrote: >> it started with Sean's Vision. Free the Phone. > > Thanks for the very interesting inside views about your decisions, I > really appreciate your way of explaining how things worked out. > I have to revise my opinion about your marketing strategy in some way. > "Free your phone" is a nice slogan and idea to archive publicity. > > The big Unknown is and will be the GSM chip which is under NDA. > Freerunner may phone the Whitehouse anytime. Without a workaround of GSM > the vision of the Free Phone will stay a vision. This is painful to > realize, I know :-) > > Again thanks to you, > Christoph > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Freerunner's Future
On Sat, Jun 6, 2009 at 1:54 PM, swap38 wrote: [snip] > > I created this page (just a draft) : > http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Community_transition > [/snip] I've started some brainstorming on this page at http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Community_transition#Community_Organization It's all very general and abstract right now. Please (of course) feel free to change it up and expand where you see fit. Jeremy McNaughton ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Freerunner's Future
Jeremy I really appreciate your email. Your words cheered us all up at the office. -Sean Jeremy McNaughton wrote: > > Layoffs are always sad, and never an easy decision to make. To those > who are leaving the company, thanks for the great work. I wish the > best for your future endeavours and hope that you are able to remain > in the community in some way. > > I know I haven't really contributed much to the project. I'm not much > of a programmer and only have time to poke around on the phone every > other weekend or so. Still, I've read almost every thread on the > mailing list and have learned a great deal. > > I do have a fair bit of experience doing media relations for local > grassroots organizations and non-profits. My experience isn't with > software or technology, it's with anti-poverty activism and social > service work. Nonetheless, I have some feedback based on some > non-tech community organizing to share. > > Handing development of the Freerunner over to the community is a big > deal. There is a lot of opportunity here to get good press for both > Openmoko Inc. and the community. > > The way I see it, giving the phone to the community is every bit as > radical as launching an open source phone was in the first place. The > Openmoko community is now coordinating development of an updated > Freerunner (using Free software), there are multiple distros, lots of > apps, multiple phone gui apps. Not only that, but the mailing lists > are far from stagnant, and outside of openmoko.org, other parts of the > broader Openmoko community have their own mailing lists, wikis and > tracs. > > The key point here is that Openmoko succeeded in building a community > around its product. This is no easy task. Companies and > organizations with more resources behind them have tried this and not > succeeded nearly as well as Openmoko has. For this the company should > be commended. There's definitely a newsworthy story here as well. > > Naysayers might look at Openmoko handing responsibility for the > Freerunner to the community as a death knell for the project, or proof > that an open source phone can't work. Instead, it seems the > Freerunner is transitioning from a phone that was designed in house > and then open sourced, to a phone for which the hardware itself is > designed by an open source community. That's huge! > > There's a big difference between how the Freerunner was developed and > how the gta02-core is being developed, and that means that once again > Openmoko is breaking new ground. > > It may be a little early to bring this message to the media. It > probably makes sense to let the community have a chance to formalize a > bit, develop some structure. A Openmoko Foundation maybe? > > Anyways, once the dust settles maybe Openmoko could make a big > announcement about how the thriving community is in the process of > taking over development of the phone. It could be a chance for > Openmoko to get some good press for being innovative and altruistic. > It could also be a huge boon for the community, as it raises awareness > about the work being done and reaches out to potential new members. > Not to mention reminding people of all the incredible work that has > been done with these phones so far. > > Openmoko is a success story. Despite all the frustrations and delays, > a new community that develops open source phone technology has been > created. In the FLOSS podcast interview a few weeks ago (I think) > Sean spoke about how the Openmoko has reduced a lot of barriers to > phone development, potentially allowing the kind of garage workshop > innovations that led companies like Hewlett Packard or Apple. > Facilitating the community and that kind of development just lowered > one more barrier. > > > Well, that's my 2 cents. > > > Jeremy McNaughton > > > On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 3:20 PM, Harald Welte wrote: >> Thanks for your update, Sean! >> >> It's more than welcome to see Openmoko Inc. is still very much in support >> of the Freerunner/GTA02 and will provide the community with support in >> areas like the hosting infrastructure as well as the legal side >> (trademarks). >> >> I'm happy to see this transition and willing to help wherever I can. >> >> Regards and thank you once again, >> Harald >> -- >> - Harald Welte >> http://laforge.gnumonks.org/ >> >> "Privacy in residential applications is a desirable marketing option." >> (ETSI EN 300 175-7 Ch. >> A6) >> >> ___ >> Openmoko community mailing list >> community@lists.openmoko.org >> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community >> > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > > -- Vie
Re: Freerunner's Future
Harald Welte-3 wrote: > > Thanks for your update, Sean! > > It's more than welcome to see Openmoko Inc. is still very much in support > of the Freerunner/GTA02 and will provide the community with support in > areas like the hosting infrastructure as well as the legal side > (trademarks). > > I'm happy to see this transition and willing to help wherever I can. > > Thanks a lot Harald. I heard you're back in Taiwan now. So let's talk in person later this week. I just returned this afternoon. -Sean -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/Freerunner%27s-Future-tp3012885p3043206.html Sent from the Openmoko Community mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Freerunner's Future
Jeremy (et. al.), >After thinking about it for a bit, I don't know if we really need to >find an umbrella organization right away. All good points, and some of them were ones I was going to point out this morning, but you beat me to it. Other points: Any formal organization that I know of, even one under an "umbrella", has to have some definition of "membership", "charter", "structure" and "bylaws". "Charter" could be "defining an open phone" The definition of "membership" can be something as simple as "people on this particular mailing list" Bylaws state what people can and can not do, how many officers you have (President, Secretary and Treasurer are the traditional ones), how they are chosen (I almost said "elected", but that presumes things), and who can chose them. Do you have a board of directors? Some foundations have a couple, with one having fiscal and legal responsibilities, and the other may have technical responsibilities. I am modeling the new LI after a very old and successful organization called "DECUS" (Digital Equipment Corporation User Society) as well as a couple of other long-term successful organizations such as the Automobile Association of America and the Association for the Advancement of Retired People (yes, I know the last two are weird for this group, but they have interesting models for "end users"). DECUS had country groups as well as many, many "Special Interest Groups" (VMS, UNIX, Networking, Security, Hardware, etc.) It was a cross-matrix, so the Special Interest Groups could have members in many countries. But before you could form a "Special Interest Group" you had to have at least: o Four members o Three officers (President, Secretary, Treasurer) o "Charter" - what you were going to do The bylaws were supplied (for the most part) by DECUS, the central organization, which had its own President, Secretary and Treasurer Digital "sponsored" DECUS, but did not run it. It truly was an organization of Digital's users. So, I suggest that your group follow the path of trying to solve some issues like "who belongs", "who speaks for the group" and "what do we want to do". You will need to solve these before either forming your own organization or approaching another. In the meantime, as you said, I see no *real* hurry to do either. You have some time. Warmest regards, maddog -- Jon "maddog" Hall Executive Director Linux International(R) email: mad...@li.org 80 Amherst St. Voice: +1.603.672.4557 Amherst, N.H. 03031-3032 U.S.A. Cell: +1.603.943. WWW: http://www.li.org Board Member: Uniforum Association Board Member Emeritus: USENIX Association (2000-2006) (R)Linux is a registered trademark of Linus Torvalds in several countries. (R)Linux International is a registered trademark in the USA used pursuant to a license from Linux Mark Institute, authorized licensor of Linus Torvalds, owner of the Linux trademark on a worldwide basis (R)UNIX is a registered trademark of The Open Group in the USA and other countries. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Freerunner's Future
On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 1:49 PM, swap38 wrote: > > good news :-) > > Like jeremy I'm not enough skilled to contribute in code and I'm > probably less skilled than him in management. > But I want to help as much as I can. > > There's 2 solutions for a foundation : > 1 - create a brand new Openmoko foundation > 2 - join an a foundation that already exists an create a sub-group > > The solution 2 is easier to start (and can be moved in solution 1 later). > We can ask to : > - Linux International (see this mail from maddog : > http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2009-June/049177.html) > - Mozilla (they planned to build a mozilla phone : > http://mozphone.com/about/) > - LiMo ? (www.limofoundation.org) > - other ? > > My 2 cents > > Swap38 > These are good suggestions (though I don't know about LiMo, not really a community organization). After thinking about it for a bit, I don't know if we really need to find an umbrella organization right away. It seems that for now Openmoko is still willing to foot the bills for hosting infrastructure and helping out in other small ways. That's basically what an umbrella or incubator would be doing for us anyways. Maybe I'm mistaken, but it doesn't seem like Openmoko Inc. has any sort of urgency to hand the phone over to another incorporated body. If I'm wrong about that then maybe we should take up Jon's offer with Linux International. But if there's no rush, let's take our time to look at all the options. After all, transitions like this one are difficult and resource consuming. We should try to go through as few organizational transformations as possible. There are some other questions that I think we need to talk about for a foundation: Name: Openmoko Inc. has been kind enough to allow the community to use its branding and trademarks. Would that include allowing us to use "Openmoko" in the name of the foundation? There are obvious advantages to keeping the same branding, but that could become confusing. Steve said "Postmoko" above. Freerunner Foundation? Or maybe even a name that could include other phones? Scope: What will our mission statement be? Is the foundation just to support the gta02-core project, or will it also supervise/contribute to/support Paroli, OM2009, FSO etc? Does the foundation attempt to finance a future phone, does it work mostly on software, does focus on porting "real" Linux to all the Android phones that will be on the market? Location: The Openmoko community is international, so where do we want the foundation to be headquartered? It might make the most sense to put the foundation where there are the most members. Different countries have different rules and categories for non-profits, are there places we should avoid or that may be advantageous? Are we safer in a country that does not recognize software patents? As for Jon's offer, maybe an LI sub-group for Openmoko end users could exist in parallel to the foundation. The foundation could still also be open to end users in this scenario. This could work well if the two groups have different mission statements. There are a lot of options to consider. It's important that we choose carefully to ensure a productive future for our community. Before we're ready to start a foundation, there are some things that we can sort out during our incubation period. I've only just started reading the gta02-core list and haven't been on IRC at all yet so I don't know... maybe some of these things are already started on: Decision making process: I think that a clear, accessible process for making decisions is best. We need a balanced process that is fair to those doing the hard work and to end users. We also need to avoid deadlocks and conflicts. Paroli and OM2009: Do these projects need new leaders? Online resources: who will handle admin tasks on the *.openmoko.org? Do we need a team for that? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Freerunner's Future
One comment about both the limo foundation and the mozilla foundation is that they seem to be pushing the design of one stack of software. From my observations of Openmoko to date, the concept is more of open hardware and multiple operating system stacks, even to the point of having BSD on the phone (or perhaps other stacks that do not use a Linux kernel). One of the issues I have with Linux International as an end user's group for all of Free Software is the name "Linux", which would turn off certain groups of people. I have struggled with this, but in the end I am going to keep the name, because it is already set up (the easiest path), the name recognition and to honor my friend Linus Torvalds. However all Free Software users would be welcome. Make sure that whatever group you join gives you the freedom you desire. Warmest regards, maddog ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Freerunner's Future
Swap. Thanks. There are many options available to OM. I'm sure they all be considered Steve swap38 wrote: > Steve Mosher a écrit : >> see inlined. >> >> Jeremy McNaughton wrote: >> >>> (...) >>> >>> Organizing an Openmoko Foundation is something I'd really like to help >>> with. Up till now I've not really had the skills to contribute any >>> sort of code. The other activities open to me thus far (like bug >>> testing and documentation), well unfortunately haven't gotten me >>> involved in anything more than a casual basis (though I have learned >>> tonnes from my months of lurking). >>> >> I'll let Sean know personally. We've discussed it. Haralde also has >> high regard for the idea. > > good news :-) > > Like jeremy I'm not enough skilled to contribute in code and I'm > probably less skilled than him in management. > But I want to help as much as I can. > > There's 2 solutions for a foundation : > 1 - create a brand new Openmoko foundation > 2 - join an a foundation that already exists an create a sub-group > > The solution 2 is easier to start (and can be moved in solution 1 later). > We can ask to : > - Linux International (see this mail from maddog : > http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2009-June/049177.html) > - Mozilla (they planned to build a mozilla phone : > http://mozphone.com/about/) > - LiMo ? (www.limofoundation.org) > - other ? > > My 2 cents > > Swap38 > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Freerunner's Future
I support the acceptance of Jon's offer. I think that organizing through LI (which can be later spunoff if need be) is akin to a start-up utilizing the resources, influences, and connected personalities of an incubator. The added appearance of solidity as a group may be encouragement to other organizations or businesses to get involved, which is what we all need. More involvement. The MozPhone is an interesting concept if true. We should be encouraging them to use the FreeRunner as their working hardware before they decide to run off to one of those far more expensive modular kits. On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 1:49 PM, swap38 wrote: > > There's 2 solutions for a foundation : > 1 - create a brand new Openmoko foundation > 2 - join an a foundation that already exists an create a sub-group > > The solution 2 is easier to start (and can be moved in solution 1 later). > We can ask to : > - Linux International (see this mail from maddog : > http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2009-June/049177.html) > - Mozilla (they planned to build a mozilla phone : > http://mozphone.com/about/) > - LiMo ? (www.limofoundation.org) > > ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Freerunner's Future
+1 to LI +1/2 to Mozilla -2 to LiMo 2009/6/7 swap38 : > Steve Mosher a écrit : >> see inlined. >> >> Jeremy McNaughton wrote: >> >>> (...) >>> >>> Organizing an Openmoko Foundation is something I'd really like to help >>> with. Up till now I've not really had the skills to contribute any >>> sort of code. The other activities open to me thus far (like bug >>> testing and documentation), well unfortunately haven't gotten me >>> involved in anything more than a casual basis (though I have learned >>> tonnes from my months of lurking). >>> >> I'll let Sean know personally. We've discussed it. Haralde also has >> high regard for the idea. > > good news :-) > > Like jeremy I'm not enough skilled to contribute in code and I'm > probably less skilled than him in management. > But I want to help as much as I can. > > There's 2 solutions for a foundation : > 1 - create a brand new Openmoko foundation > 2 - join an a foundation that already exists an create a sub-group > > The solution 2 is easier to start (and can be moved in solution 1 later). > We can ask to : > - Linux International (see this mail from maddog : > http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2009-June/049177.html) > - Mozilla (they planned to build a mozilla phone : > http://mozphone.com/about/) > - LiMo ? (www.limofoundation.org) > - other ? > > My 2 cents > > Swap38 > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > -- David Reyes Samblas Martinez http://www.tuxbrain.com Open ultraportable & embedded solutions Openmoko, Openpandora, Arduino Hey, watch out!!! There's a linux in your pocket!!! ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Freerunner's Future
Steve Mosher a écrit : > see inlined. > > Jeremy McNaughton wrote: > >> (...) >> >> Organizing an Openmoko Foundation is something I'd really like to help >> with. Up till now I've not really had the skills to contribute any >> sort of code. The other activities open to me thus far (like bug >> testing and documentation), well unfortunately haven't gotten me >> involved in anything more than a casual basis (though I have learned >> tonnes from my months of lurking). >> > I'll let Sean know personally. We've discussed it. Haralde also has > high regard for the idea. good news :-) Like jeremy I'm not enough skilled to contribute in code and I'm probably less skilled than him in management. But I want to help as much as I can. There's 2 solutions for a foundation : 1 - create a brand new Openmoko foundation 2 - join an a foundation that already exists an create a sub-group The solution 2 is easier to start (and can be moved in solution 1 later). We can ask to : - Linux International (see this mail from maddog : http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2009-June/049177.html) - Mozilla (they planned to build a mozilla phone : http://mozphone.com/about/) - LiMo ? (www.limofoundation.org) - other ? My 2 cents Swap38 ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Freerunner's Future
see inlined. Jeremy McNaughton wrote: > On Sat, Jun 6, 2009 at 6:23 AM, Werner Almesberger wrote: >> You can view the situation also as an opportunity to change some >> of the structure of the project. Openmoko Inc. had certain >> constraints due to the way it was conceived. Some of them looked >> good at the beginning but later caused problems - yet were too >> difficult to change. >> >> The good thing about a new start is that you can stop fighting the >> mistakes of the past and turn your full attention towards making >> new ones ;-) >> >> - Werner > > +1 for Werner's way of looking at things. For those of you who havent had the pleasure of meeting werner or working with him, I'll just add this personal note. He has one of the most cheerful dispositions I have ever encountered. > > Considering that Openmoko started as a project inside a major > electronics manufacturer, it's not surprising that once it was spun > off it kept a lot of "organizational legacy" from its corporate roots. > While the old structure worked well enough to get us to this point, > I'm pretty excited about getting the development even more out in the > open. > > Jon 'maddog' Hall's offer to incubate the community under Linux > International is also pretty exciting. Eventually I'd like to see an > independent foundation that acts as hub and legal representative of > the community. > > Organizing an Openmoko Foundation is something I'd really like to help > with. Up till now I've not really had the skills to contribute any > sort of code. The other activities open to me thus far (like bug > testing and documentation), well unfortunately haven't gotten me > involved in anything more than a casual basis (though I have learned > tonnes from my months of lurking). I'll let Sean know personally. We've discussed it. Haralde also has high regard for the idea. > > But organizing is what I love doing. Like I said above my organizing > experience isn't with free software but with local activist groups and > social services: > - co-founder of a homeless shelter > - sat on committee to rewrite all bylaws, policies and procedures for > the shelter after it had been incorporated as a nonprofit (I'm not a > lawyer, but I've been exposed to lots of policy) > - sat on the board of a coalition/network of social service agencies. > the coalition was unincorporated and hosted by an incubator > organization > - i've done trainings for groups on consensus decision making and > conflict resolution Sounds perfect to me. > > Even though I'm from a different field, I think enough of my > background should cross over that I can be of some help. I've also > used GNU/Linux on the desktop and server since Slackware 3.2 and have > been a lurker/occasional participant on many Free software projects in > that time. So I'm pretty familiar with open source politics too. I > just usually get active in more local oriented projects. > > I don't want any sort of official position... give that to someone who > has already demonstrated a long term commitment to the community. But > I would like to be kept in the loop.. if there's a mailing list > created I'll join it and be a part of the discussion as much as I can. Perhaps we should make a wider shout out to the rest of the community? We really do need somebody to keep the momentum going. Those inside OM are now deeply focused on the business and those who have left are equally occupied, some like werner with volunteer projects and others with finding a next paycheck. > > Depending on how things go, maybe I can handle some of the > organizational tasks that would previously have been done by Openmoko > Inc. and free up developers to do their thing. > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Freerunner's Future
On Sat, Jun 6, 2009 at 6:23 AM, Werner Almesberger wrote: > You can view the situation also as an opportunity to change some > of the structure of the project. Openmoko Inc. had certain > constraints due to the way it was conceived. Some of them looked > good at the beginning but later caused problems - yet were too > difficult to change. > > The good thing about a new start is that you can stop fighting the > mistakes of the past and turn your full attention towards making > new ones ;-) > > - Werner +1 for Werner's way of looking at things. Considering that Openmoko started as a project inside a major electronics manufacturer, it's not surprising that once it was spun off it kept a lot of "organizational legacy" from its corporate roots. While the old structure worked well enough to get us to this point, I'm pretty excited about getting the development even more out in the open. Jon 'maddog' Hall's offer to incubate the community under Linux International is also pretty exciting. Eventually I'd like to see an independent foundation that acts as hub and legal representative of the community. Organizing an Openmoko Foundation is something I'd really like to help with. Up till now I've not really had the skills to contribute any sort of code. The other activities open to me thus far (like bug testing and documentation), well unfortunately haven't gotten me involved in anything more than a casual basis (though I have learned tonnes from my months of lurking). But organizing is what I love doing. Like I said above my organizing experience isn't with free software but with local activist groups and social services: - co-founder of a homeless shelter - sat on committee to rewrite all bylaws, policies and procedures for the shelter after it had been incorporated as a nonprofit (I'm not a lawyer, but I've been exposed to lots of policy) - sat on the board of a coalition/network of social service agencies. the coalition was unincorporated and hosted by an incubator organization - i've done trainings for groups on consensus decision making and conflict resolution Even though I'm from a different field, I think enough of my background should cross over that I can be of some help. I've also used GNU/Linux on the desktop and server since Slackware 3.2 and have been a lurker/occasional participant on many Free software projects in that time. So I'm pretty familiar with open source politics too. I just usually get active in more local oriented projects. I don't want any sort of official position... give that to someone who has already demonstrated a long term commitment to the community. But I would like to be kept in the loop.. if there's a mailing list created I'll join it and be a part of the discussion as much as I can. Depending on how things go, maybe I can handle some of the organizational tasks that would previously have been done by Openmoko Inc. and free up developers to do their thing. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Freerunner's Future
Steve Mosher a écrit : > Community, > > To start off I have this list of proposed FAQs kindly generated by > Werner. I'm going to ask for a volunteer to incorpoate this into an > appropriate place in the wiki. > > Any takers? Hi Steve, I created this page (just a draft) : http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Community_transition Is it what you expect ? -- swap38 ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Freerunner's Future
On Sat, 2009-06-06 at 15:59 +0200, swap38 wrote: > Risto H. Kurppa a écrit : > > I'd like to see some kind of democratic structure created to guide us > > somewhere where most of us want to go. > > Do you think about a kind of Openmoko Foundation like Wikimedia or Mozilla ? > > It can be a good way to manage projects, communities ... and maybe money > ? ;-) good idea... an umbrella organization would be the easiest way: http://www.softwarefreedom.org/resources/2008/foss-primer.html#x1-190003 Denis. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: MP3 patents (was: Freerunner's Future)
Al Johnson wrote: > On Saturday 06 June 2009, Harald Welte wrote: > >> On Fri, Jun 05, 2009 at 12:26:42PM -0700, Steve Mosher wrote: >> >>> I am somewhat constrained in what I am able to say. On one view there is >>> the position, held by some, that any hardware that is merely CAPABLE of >>> mp3 decode is required to apply for a license. >>> >> I think that position cannot hold strong in any court of law. You cannot >> charge a MP3 license for each and every general purpose computing device. >> This would mean that e.g. every PC mainboard would have to pay the MP3 >> royalties, and I can assure you, they dont ;) >> >> So even while sisvel or others might claim such a position, it is >> pointless. >> > > That depends on what the point is. It's no good being right if you can't > afford to prove it. Many will pay for a license they don't need because it's > cheaper than litigation. It's a legal form of extortion. > +1. > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: MP3 patents (was: Freerunner's Future)
David Reyes Samblas Martinez wrote: > 2009/6/5 Tim Schmidt : > >> On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 3:26 PM, Steve Mosher wrote: >> >>> I am somewhat constrained in what I am able to say. On one view there is >>> the position, >>> held by some, that any hardware that is merely CAPABLE of mp3 decode is >>> required >>> to apply for a license. >>> >> So these dolts want a license fee for every turing complete computer >> above a few mips? >> > in short yes, in Spain is even more blooding, because apart of format > war licences in customs, there is local agency called SGAE that > succeeds in make pay a fee for any device not only able to play mp3 > but any kind of music, and that's not all, not only to play but to > keep any kind of multimedia format (this include CD/DVD-R, HD, > SDCards) > Is no matter of common sense or logic, now a days with law at hand, > they can do it and they do. Then is your work to demonstrate in court > you are right but meanwhile you are totally fuc$%ed. Scaring ,isn't > it? > Steve the problem is that "some" holding the position, are the ones > that have enough money/power/time/knowledge to sue you, because even > If they know they can loose in the court, in a way or another you will > pay because you just can afford and stand in the whole long proccess, > is their daily routine. > Yes, I know this is the problem. Perhaps I wasnt clear enough in my cryptic note. The issue isnt whether or not this position is valid or will "win" in court. The issue is this. can you afford to defend yourself? At one company I worked at the rule was pretty simple. Try to settle anything that was less than a certain dollar amount, say XYZ dollars, because the cost to even get in front of a judge was XYZ dollars. I cant count the number of times I was told " they have no case, but the cost to prove it is $$$, go work out a deal" >> --tim >> >> ___ >> Openmoko community mailing list >> community@lists.openmoko.org >> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community >> >> > > > > ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Freerunner's Future
Risto H. Kurppa a écrit : > I'd like to see some kind of democratic structure created to guide us > somewhere where most of us want to go. Do you think about a kind of Openmoko Foundation like Wikimedia or Mozilla ? It can be a good way to manage projects, communities ... and maybe money ? ;-) -- swap38 ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: MP3 patents (was: Freerunner's Future)
On Saturday 06 June 2009, Harald Welte wrote: > On Fri, Jun 05, 2009 at 12:26:42PM -0700, Steve Mosher wrote: > > I am somewhat constrained in what I am able to say. On one view there is > > the position, held by some, that any hardware that is merely CAPABLE of > > mp3 decode is required to apply for a license. > > I think that position cannot hold strong in any court of law. You cannot > charge a MP3 license for each and every general purpose computing device. > This would mean that e.g. every PC mainboard would have to pay the MP3 > royalties, and I can assure you, they dont ;) > > So even while sisvel or others might claim such a position, it is > pointless. That depends on what the point is. It's no good being right if you can't afford to prove it. Many will pay for a license they don't need because it's cheaper than litigation. It's a legal form of extortion. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Freerunner's Future
On Saturday 06 June 2009, Ben Wong wrote: > > My biggest disappointment has been the fact that my Openmoko Freerunner > > (which I've had since helping form the Austin buying group) is still > > not _nearly_ as reliable as any cheap simple handset I can get for 10% > > of the cost. > > Not to disagree, I'd like to share that in the short time I've been > using my Freerunner as my only phone it has been much, MUCH, more > reliable than my previous "smart" phone. I was particularly amused to find a friend's Sony-Ericsson has the Buzz issue. Another bug is a tendency to switch network in the middle of a call when roaming, leaving both ends with a silent line. Then there was the long list of niggles and frustrations...at least we get to do something about (most of) our bugs. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Freerunner's Future
On Sat, Jun 6, 2009 at 6:23 PM, Werner Almesberger wrote: > The good thing about a new start is that you can stop fighting the > mistakes of the past and turn your full attention towards making > new ones ;-) > > - Werner Lovely, made me laugh which was needed after all that. I will get started on it right now, cheers, clare ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Freerunner's Future
Dale Schumacher wrote: > If the concerted efforts of many talented (in some cases even paid) > engineers couldn't achieve that basic milestone, it seems unlikely > that it will be achieved by a loosely-organized group of unpaid (and > demoralized) volunteers. You can view the situation also as an opportunity to change some of the structure of the project. Openmoko Inc. had certain constraints due to the way it was conceived. Some of them looked good at the beginning but later caused problems - yet were too difficult to change. The good thing about a new start is that you can stop fighting the mistakes of the past and turn your full attention towards making new ones ;-) - Werner ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Freerunner's Future
Dale, > The Freerunner had (has?) great potential, but we > couldn't realize that potential without basic reliable functionality. > If the concerted efforts of many talented (in some cases even paid) > engineers couldn't achieve that basic milestone, it seems unlikely > that it will be achieved by a loosely-organized group of unpaid (and > demoralized) volunteers. Thanks for your concern and (slight) impatience. Several efforts are underway to form really solid groups, both community and commercial, to continue with the open phone. I haven't noticed any demoralization, quite to the contrary. But I do believe the size of our community is stagnant or slowly shrinking. Which only makes sense given that there is not much visible progress right now. BTW here are some interesting statistics about our community: http://downloads.openmoko.org/stats/05/ And number of subscribers to our mailing lists: https://monitor.openmoko.org/munin/chandra/sita.openmoko.org-mailman_detail.html (openmoko-kernel is missing for some reason, we will fix this, I believe it has around 600 subscribers) As for the 'big picture' of open devices - on the technical level there are a number of categories that are merging over the next few years: phones, portable media players, electronic dictionaries, navigation devices. Other non-mobile categories are also not far behind (picture frames, set-top boxes, wifi routers, NAS). For these types of devices, there are a few 'open' options here and there, but by Openmoko's standards for the largest part it's all closed. Going forward we need to find more semiconductor partners that understand 'open' and know how they can create value with it. In today's consumer electronics industry, semiconductor companies are the ones writing the drivers, they do reference designs for manufacturers. Trying to do open devices without the help of semiconductor companies will just not work. The good news is that pretty much all semiconductors have a relaxed, and often friendly, attitude towards 'Linux' nowadays. They see the potential, and real size of the market today. Things like Android help tremendously! Bottom line - the path to a fully open phone as envisioned by Openmoko and our phantastic community is still long. Maybe even 5+ years. I'm not discouraged by that at all. gta02-core is on track, and Werner has as clear a long-term plan of why and where this will all go as everybody else. Realistically I am hoping that actual physical hardware will come out of it within 12 months or so. In other parts of the Openmoko landscape, work is going on on non-phone projects, whether they are called Project B or C or D. Even if those devices are not a phone initially, trust me they will all become phones :-) Thanks for staying with us, I hope you enjoy the ride with your 'pioneering' Neo (I'm a daily user myself). Best Regards, and keep your feedback coming! Wolfgang Dale Schumacher wrote: > On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 9:00 PM, Boris Wong wrote: > >> Steve Mosher wrote: >> >>> 1. Its a mobile Phone First, and a multi purpose platform secondarily >>> >>> >> I actually like the perspective of #1 very much and you should keep it >> as such. >> > ...snip... > >> Free the phone; we already have multi-purpose platform devices that run >> linux. >> > > I'm totally on-board with this message, vision and mission. The > problem is--after all this time, that vision remains unfulfilled. My > biggest disappointment has been the fact that my Openmoko Freerunner > (which I've had since helping form the Austin buying group) is still > not _nearly_ as reliable as any cheap simple handset I can get for 10% > of the cost. The Freerunner had (has?) great potential, but we > couldn't realize that potential without basic reliable functionality. > If the concerted efforts of many talented (in some cases even paid) > engineers couldn't achieve that basic milestone, it seems unlikely > that it will be achieved by a loosely-organized group of unpaid (and > demoralized) volunteers. > > I truly hope I'm wrong--and I applaud the efforts of those who > continue to strive for this goal. I also want to express my thanks > for the efforts of all those who have worked so long and hard trying > to achieve this vision. > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: MP3 patents (was: Freerunner's Future)
On Saturday 06 June 2009 09:27:06 Harald Welte wrote: > This would > mean that e.g. every PC mainboard would have to pay the MP3 royalties, They would have to pay for every single audio codec but also for videos, file systems, network protocol… -- Vincent MEURISSE ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: MP3 patents (was: Freerunner's Future)
On Fri, Jun 05, 2009 at 12:26:42PM -0700, Steve Mosher wrote: > I am somewhat constrained in what I am able to say. On one view there is > the position, held by some, that any hardware that is merely CAPABLE of mp3 > decode is required to apply for a license. I think that position cannot hold strong in any court of law. You cannot charge a MP3 license for each and every general purpose computing device. This would mean that e.g. every PC mainboard would have to pay the MP3 royalties, and I can assure you, they dont ;) So even while sisvel or others might claim such a position, it is pointless. -- - Harald Weltehttp://laforge.gnumonks.org/ "Privacy in residential applications is a desirable marketing option." (ETSI EN 300 175-7 Ch. A6) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Freerunner's Future
> difference. It causes a revolution where major phone manufacturers like > LG, Samsung, Nokia, etc. will start trembling to figure out their next > moves as the community thrives to make something so much better with > mass collaboration. how so? iphone/pre/blackberry/winmo all offer similarly polished experiences, mature solutions with no real edge among any of the competitors im certainly hoping FIC can get their act together with 3G and a camera, but have no probs waiting for Acer/ASUS to 'accidentally' ship a phone that happens to run a vanilla kernel.. ive narrowed down to giving my money to taiwan, anwyays :) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Freerunner's Future
> My biggest disappointment has been the fact that my Openmoko Freerunner > (which I've had since helping form the Austin buying group) is still > not _nearly_ as reliable as any cheap simple handset I can get for 10% > of the cost. Not to disagree, I'd like to share that in the short time I've been using my Freerunner as my only phone it has been much, MUCH, more reliable than my previous "smart" phone. I had a Samsung SPH-N400 which, besides having some incredibly brain dead bugs, which I could go on for hours about, had terrible problems with non-reentrant code. That is, when two events would happen nearly simultaneously, say answering the phone and unplugging it from the power, it would often crash. I even managed to get it to crash by simply pressing the same button too rapidly. I got very practiced at removing and replacing the battery quickly. Now mind you, the N400 is a phone that was offered by a major carrier (Sprint) in the US and was supposedly fully supported. I exchanged the N400 several times and also had them try flashing different firmware on it. It didn't help, it simply shifted the bugs around. > The Freerunner had (has?) great potential, but we > couldn't realize that potential without basic reliable functionality. > If the concerted efforts of many talented (in some cases even paid) > engineers couldn't achieve that basic milestone, it seems unlikely > that it will be achieved by a loosely-organized group of unpaid (and > demoralized) volunteers. The present tense is correct, the Freerunner *has* great potential. It is still the only device even close to being a _Free_ phone, and it will reach that in time. As for what can be achieved by a loosely-organized group of unpaid volunteers... well, do you really need me to list all the Open Source success stories which started with even less than we have? I believe the Freerunner will be a success story. The freeing of the cell phone is a revolution on the order of the personal computer revolution. The only question is, Will the Freerunner be more like the MITS Altair 8800, which led by inspiration or will it be like the IBM PC, whose framework was widely copied to become a de facto standard? --Ben Wong ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: MP3 patents (was: Freerunner's Future)
Christoph, Openmoko phones are MP3-free and thus do not infringe on any MP3 intellectual property. Wolfgang Christoph Pulster wrote: >> It's more than welcome to see Openmoko Inc. is still very much in >> support of the Freerunner/GTA02 and will provide the community with >> support in areas like the hosting infrastructure as well as the legal >> side (trademarks). >> > > Please remember the patent infridgements concerning MP3 (www.sisvel.it). > Openmoko Inc. did not solve this issue until today. > As a result, all sales inside EU are patent infridgments, all reseller > inside EU community have to live with the fact, that local customs seize > their Freerunner order anytime. > > Christoph > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: MP3 patents (was: Freerunner's Future)
David, > Once was said OM was in sue trying to resolve this but I have no more > info on that for a long time. You have a good memory! :-) Yes, we were working with the Software Freedom Law Center in New York on our patent strategy. There was a decision of the US Supreme Court that undid some of the ongoing work. Don't expect anything to come out fast, but it's still moving. Wolfgang David Reyes Samblas Martinez wrote: > pattens as are now a days is a real PITA, no matter if you don't have > the libraries installed in the device,if you are cached by those > pirate... sorry pattens agencies in customs they just have to say to > the court the device is suitable to play mp3 and you don't have > license, and your parcel will be retained for months/years, no matter > the court final decision, you as reseller are fucked because you have > payed for a material you cannot touch. So orl you arrive an agreement > with the agency (+money,-less time) or wait for the lottery of the > court and cross your fingers to have a judge a little bit more techy > than the average, because if not, your parcel will be returned by > default, and if the judge has a bad day you surely will pay a penalty. > > Once was said OM was in sue trying to resolve this but I have no more > info on that for a long time. > > 2009/6/5 Al Johnson : > >> On Friday 05 June 2009, Christoph Pulster wrote: >> It's more than welcome to see Openmoko Inc. is still very much in support of the Freerunner/GTA02 and will provide the community with support in areas like the hosting infrastructure as well as the legal side (trademarks). >>> Please remember the patent infridgements concerning MP3 (www.sisvel.it). >>> Openmoko Inc. did not solve this issue until today. >>> As a result, all sales inside EU are patent infridgments, all reseller >>> inside EU community have to live with the fact, that local customs seize >>> their Freerunner order anytime. >>> >> Openmoko removed the mp3 codecs from the images they supply, and from their >> repositories, causing frustration for many. I don't know what image they now >> ship with, but would be surprised if they haven't removed the mp3 codecs from >> that too. If it doesn't contain the codec it can't infringe the patent. What >> more do you expect them to do? >> >> >> >> >> ___ >> Openmoko community mailing list >> community@lists.openmoko.org >> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community >> >> > > > > ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Freerunner's Future
On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 9:00 PM, Boris Wong wrote: > Steve Mosher wrote: >> 1. Its a mobile Phone First, and a multi purpose platform secondarily >> > I actually like the perspective of #1 very much and you should keep it > as such. ...snip... > Free the phone; we already have multi-purpose platform devices that run > linux. I'm totally on-board with this message, vision and mission. The problem is--after all this time, that vision remains unfulfilled. My biggest disappointment has been the fact that my Openmoko Freerunner (which I've had since helping form the Austin buying group) is still not _nearly_ as reliable as any cheap simple handset I can get for 10% of the cost. The Freerunner had (has?) great potential, but we couldn't realize that potential without basic reliable functionality. If the concerted efforts of many talented (in some cases even paid) engineers couldn't achieve that basic milestone, it seems unlikely that it will be achieved by a loosely-organized group of unpaid (and demoralized) volunteers. I truly hope I'm wrong--and I applaud the efforts of those who continue to strive for this goal. I also want to express my thanks for the efforts of all those who have worked so long and hard trying to achieve this vision. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Freerunner's Future
Hi Steve, Steve Mosher wrote: > 1. Its a mobile Phone First, and a multi purpose platform secondarily > I actually like the perspective of #1 very much and you should keep it as such. As I am to understand, the core philosophy of Openmoko is the "Free the Phone". There are many platform hardware devices out there that are open. Stressing that it is the _phone_ makes the biggest difference. It causes a revolution where major phone manufacturers like LG, Samsung, Nokia, etc. will start trembling to figure out their next moves as the community thrives to make something so much better with mass collaboration. Free the phone; we already have multi-purpose platform devices that run linux. -Boris ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Freerunner's Future
Christoph Pulster wrote: > I see ONE active Mailinglist (here) and nothing more worth to mention. openmoko-kernel used to be very busy. Now it's a bit more quiet with kernel maintenance being rearranged, but I expect it to pick up some more activity again before too long. Also, these days, the most active participants all use IRC and much of the small coordination happens there. > The GTA03core list consists of 5 active people feeding some strange CAD > software, gta02-core is a very young project and I'm rather pleased with the way it's growing. There are 1-2 people joining for active participation every week, and some more are just lurking for now. If active participants joined at a higher rate, it would actually be difficult to give them the attention they deserve and to integrate them into the project. (In fact, I already built up a bit of a backlog for this week. Shouldn't dwell in this mail too long ...) If you don't like the strange CAD files, you may find http://people.openmoko.org/werner/gta02-core/gta02-core-expanded-all.ps.gz easier on your eyes ;-) - Werner ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: MP3 patents (was: Freerunner's Future)
2009/6/5 Tim Schmidt : > On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 3:26 PM, Steve Mosher wrote: >> I am somewhat constrained in what I am able to say. On one view there is >> the position, >> held by some, that any hardware that is merely CAPABLE of mp3 decode is >> required >> to apply for a license. > > So these dolts want a license fee for every turing complete computer > above a few mips? in short yes, in Spain is even more blooding, because apart of format war licences in customs, there is local agency called SGAE that succeeds in make pay a fee for any device not only able to play mp3 but any kind of music, and that's not all, not only to play but to keep any kind of multimedia format (this include CD/DVD-R, HD, SDCards) Is no matter of common sense or logic, now a days with law at hand, they can do it and they do. Then is your work to demonstrate in court you are right but meanwhile you are totally fuc$%ed. Scaring ,isn't it? Steve the problem is that "some" holding the position, are the ones that have enough money/power/time/knowledge to sue you, because even If they know they can loose in the court, in a way or another you will pay because you just can afford and stand in the whole long proccess, is their daily routine. > > --tim > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > -- David Reyes Samblas Martinez http://www.tuxbrain.com Open ultraportable & embedded solutions Openmoko, Openpandora, Arduino Hey, watch out!!! There's a linux in your pocket!!! ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: MP3 patents (was: Freerunner's Future)
On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 3:26 PM, Steve Mosher wrote: > I am somewhat constrained in what I am able to say. On one view there is > the position, > held by some, that any hardware that is merely CAPABLE of mp3 decode is > required > to apply for a license. So these dolts want a license fee for every turing complete computer above a few mips? --tim ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: MP3 patents (was: Freerunner's Future)
I am somewhat constrained in what I am able to say. On one view there is the position, held by some, that any hardware that is merely CAPABLE of mp3 decode is required to apply for a license. MP3 was removed from our images long ago and from the repositories. The requirements of the license agreement, without going into details, were beyond our financial means. Al Johnson wrote: > On Friday 05 June 2009, Christoph Pulster wrote: > >>> It's more than welcome to see Openmoko Inc. is still very much in >>> support of the Freerunner/GTA02 and will provide the community with >>> support in areas like the hosting infrastructure as well as the legal >>> side (trademarks). >>> >> Please remember the patent infridgements concerning MP3 (www.sisvel.it). >> Openmoko Inc. did not solve this issue until today. >> As a result, all sales inside EU are patent infridgments, all reseller >> inside EU community have to live with the fact, that local customs seize >> their Freerunner order anytime. >> > > Openmoko removed the mp3 codecs from the images they supply, and from their > repositories, causing frustration for many. I don't know what image they now > ship with, but would be surprised if they haven't removed the mp3 codecs from > that too. If it doesn't contain the codec it can't infringe the patent. What > more do you expect them to do? > > > > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: MP3 patents (was: Freerunner's Future)
true, But although I didn't do any actual testing myself, I read that conversion mp3-->ogg sometimes doesn't sound good y On 6/5/09, Pieter Colpaert wrote: > I think it's a bad idea in general to discuss the topic. MP3's are non > free and should not be used by any openmoko-user. As myself I don't got > any mp3 on my computer, I only use ogg. The only disadvantage of ogg is: > you won't be able to share it with lots of friends, due they probably > use mp3. But as a matter of fact, sharing mp3's with friends is not > concidered very legal. So... There is no problem not using any mp3's on > the openmoko. The solution for people wanting to use openmoko as there > music device: > > let's create a "music uploader" for OM2009 & SHR (on your pc: so should > have a version for linux as well as for mac and wyndaws): > The main screen should give us a selector list of all songs on your pc, > no matter if they're mp3/ogg/wav/etc when uploaded (through scp, that's > easy I guess) they get automatically converted to ogg, which is a quite > good standard to use on the openmoko. So no problems selling openmoko > anymore huh? > > Pieter > > On Fri, 2009-06-05 at 15:16 +0200, David Reyes Samblas Martinez wrote: >> pattens as are now a days is a real PITA, no matter if you don't have >> the libraries installed in the device,if you are cached by those >> pirate... sorry pattens agencies in customs they just have to say to >> the court the device is suitable to play mp3 and you don't have >> license, and your parcel will be retained for months/years, no matter >> the court final decision, you as reseller are fucked because you have >> payed for a material you cannot touch. So orl you arrive an agreement >> with the agency (+money,-less time) or wait for the lottery of the >> court and cross your fingers to have a judge a little bit more techy >> than the average, because if not, your parcel will be returned by >> default, and if the judge has a bad day you surely will pay a penalty. >> >> Once was said OM was in sue trying to resolve this but I have no more >> info on that for a long time. >> >> 2009/6/5 Al Johnson : >> > On Friday 05 June 2009, Christoph Pulster wrote: >> >> > It's more than welcome to see Openmoko Inc. is still very much in >> >> > support of the Freerunner/GTA02 and will provide the community with >> >> > support in areas like the hosting infrastructure as well as the legal >> >> > side (trademarks). >> >> >> >> Please remember the patent infridgements concerning MP3 >> >> (www.sisvel.it). >> >> Openmoko Inc. did not solve this issue until today. >> >> As a result, all sales inside EU are patent infridgments, all reseller >> >> inside EU community have to live with the fact, that local customs >> >> seize >> >> their Freerunner order anytime. >> > >> > Openmoko removed the mp3 codecs from the images they supply, and from >> > their >> > repositories, causing frustration for many. I don't know what image they >> > now >> > ship with, but would be surprised if they haven't removed the mp3 codecs >> > from >> > that too. If it doesn't contain the codec it can't infringe the patent. >> > What >> > more do you expect them to do? >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > ___ >> > Openmoko community mailing list >> > community@lists.openmoko.org >> > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community >> > >> >> >> > > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: MP3 patents (was: Freerunner's Future)
I think it's a bad idea in general to discuss the topic. MP3's are non free and should not be used by any openmoko-user. As myself I don't got any mp3 on my computer, I only use ogg. The only disadvantage of ogg is: you won't be able to share it with lots of friends, due they probably use mp3. But as a matter of fact, sharing mp3's with friends is not concidered very legal. So... There is no problem not using any mp3's on the openmoko. The solution for people wanting to use openmoko as there music device: let's create a "music uploader" for OM2009 & SHR (on your pc: so should have a version for linux as well as for mac and wyndaws): The main screen should give us a selector list of all songs on your pc, no matter if they're mp3/ogg/wav/etc when uploaded (through scp, that's easy I guess) they get automatically converted to ogg, which is a quite good standard to use on the openmoko. So no problems selling openmoko anymore huh? Pieter On Fri, 2009-06-05 at 15:16 +0200, David Reyes Samblas Martinez wrote: > pattens as are now a days is a real PITA, no matter if you don't have > the libraries installed in the device,if you are cached by those > pirate... sorry pattens agencies in customs they just have to say to > the court the device is suitable to play mp3 and you don't have > license, and your parcel will be retained for months/years, no matter > the court final decision, you as reseller are fucked because you have > payed for a material you cannot touch. So orl you arrive an agreement > with the agency (+money,-less time) or wait for the lottery of the > court and cross your fingers to have a judge a little bit more techy > than the average, because if not, your parcel will be returned by > default, and if the judge has a bad day you surely will pay a penalty. > > Once was said OM was in sue trying to resolve this but I have no more > info on that for a long time. > > 2009/6/5 Al Johnson : > > On Friday 05 June 2009, Christoph Pulster wrote: > >> > It's more than welcome to see Openmoko Inc. is still very much in > >> > support of the Freerunner/GTA02 and will provide the community with > >> > support in areas like the hosting infrastructure as well as the legal > >> > side (trademarks). > >> > >> Please remember the patent infridgements concerning MP3 (www.sisvel.it). > >> Openmoko Inc. did not solve this issue until today. > >> As a result, all sales inside EU are patent infridgments, all reseller > >> inside EU community have to live with the fact, that local customs seize > >> their Freerunner order anytime. > > > > Openmoko removed the mp3 codecs from the images they supply, and from their > > repositories, causing frustration for many. I don't know what image they now > > ship with, but would be surprised if they haven't removed the mp3 codecs > > from > > that too. If it doesn't contain the codec it can't infringe the patent. What > > more do you expect them to do? > > > > > > > > > > ___ > > Openmoko community mailing list > > community@lists.openmoko.org > > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > > > > > ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Freerunner's Future
Thanks Christoph for your clarification. I have a minor quibble with your characterization. When Openmoko started as a project in FIC, it started with a Vision. That vision was to create a open mobile phone. Its the job of marketing to message that vision to the customer. Thats what we did. Very early on, however, we realized that we could position the product ( not the company) in one of two ways: 1. Its a mobile Phone First, and a multi purpose platform secondarily 2. Its a multi purpose platform first, and a phone secondarily. If you read carefully through interviews and materials we put out you'll see that we chose #1 as opposed to number two. That is, we choose to emphasize the phone aspects as opposed to the multi purpose aspects. Over an over again you will hear us saying that its more than a phone. But, this message was not in the foreground. That was a marketing decision that was hard to make. The problem with #2 as I saw it was this: When openmoko started it started with Sean's Vision. Free the Phone. For me as marketing to insist that we market this vision like #2 didnt make much sense. It's something that we struggled with throughout the life of neo 1973 and FR. Should we change our message about the phone and call it a multi purpose device? should we change the vision of the company? If we suddenly call FR a multi-purpose platform after years of saying it was a phone, what would the community say. From late 2007 when Wolfganag and I joined to early 2008, before the launch of FR, Wolfgang, Sean and I debated this exact issue. And we even considered shipping FR with a Bootable linux and nothing else. The way I viewed it was this. If we keep pushing down the phone path eventually the vision will come true. So we tried everything to keep that vision alive, paring back on the software ( back to the basics) the downside here was this: We might fail to deliver according to the schedules we promised. On the other hand, if I switched the message to " hey its multi purpose platform" then people would ask "what about the phone you promised?" Its basically a no win situation. On one hand we promise a phone and come up short, on the other hand we change our promise altogether. In the end I own this marketing decision and any blame you want to ascribe to it. As I saw it as long as I work dilgently to keep the promise and vision alive I am doing the right thing. So even now as I try to enable people to carry the vision forward, whether its 5 guys working on Gta02 or other things I am working on, I am working to keep that original promise. I could have choosen the other path. I could have said " hey, I know we designed it as a phone, promised a phone from day one, but what the heck, lets just call it a multi purpose platform" In the end at the Embedded systems conference we gave this message a try. On a personal note. I'd like to thank you for your support and hard work. Christoph Pulster wrote: >> the best path foreword is to turn the future of the Freerunner over to >> the community. >> > > I always have problems to define "community". Speaking in numbers, > I see ONE active Mailinglist (here) and nothing more worth to mention. > The GTA03core list consists of 5 active people feeding some strange CAD > software, this community list has -lets guess- 1000 active everydayt > readers and 100 contributors, that's all !? > Based on this, your idea to base the future of the Freerunner to a > "community" is a dead born baby. > > IMO you say "community" but you mean "VAR" = value-added-resellers. > Openmoko's big marketing mistake was to announce Freerunner as a mobile > phone instead a FOSS based multi-purpose plattform. > No VAR's, no sales. Thats the sad point we have reached now. > > Christoph > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: MP3 patents (was: Freerunner's Future)
pattens as are now a days is a real PITA, no matter if you don't have the libraries installed in the device,if you are cached by those pirate... sorry pattens agencies in customs they just have to say to the court the device is suitable to play mp3 and you don't have license, and your parcel will be retained for months/years, no matter the court final decision, you as reseller are fucked because you have payed for a material you cannot touch. So orl you arrive an agreement with the agency (+money,-less time) or wait for the lottery of the court and cross your fingers to have a judge a little bit more techy than the average, because if not, your parcel will be returned by default, and if the judge has a bad day you surely will pay a penalty. Once was said OM was in sue trying to resolve this but I have no more info on that for a long time. 2009/6/5 Al Johnson : > On Friday 05 June 2009, Christoph Pulster wrote: >> > It's more than welcome to see Openmoko Inc. is still very much in >> > support of the Freerunner/GTA02 and will provide the community with >> > support in areas like the hosting infrastructure as well as the legal >> > side (trademarks). >> >> Please remember the patent infridgements concerning MP3 (www.sisvel.it). >> Openmoko Inc. did not solve this issue until today. >> As a result, all sales inside EU are patent infridgments, all reseller >> inside EU community have to live with the fact, that local customs seize >> their Freerunner order anytime. > > Openmoko removed the mp3 codecs from the images they supply, and from their > repositories, causing frustration for many. I don't know what image they now > ship with, but would be surprised if they haven't removed the mp3 codecs from > that too. If it doesn't contain the codec it can't infringe the patent. What > more do you expect them to do? > > > > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > -- David Reyes Samblas Martinez http://www.tuxbrain.com Open ultraportable & embedded solutions Openmoko, Openpandora, Arduino Hey, watch out!!! There's a linux in your pocket!!! ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: MP3 patents (was: Freerunner's Future)
On Friday 05 June 2009, Christoph Pulster wrote: > > It's more than welcome to see Openmoko Inc. is still very much in > > support of the Freerunner/GTA02 and will provide the community with > > support in areas like the hosting infrastructure as well as the legal > > side (trademarks). > > Please remember the patent infridgements concerning MP3 (www.sisvel.it). > Openmoko Inc. did not solve this issue until today. > As a result, all sales inside EU are patent infridgments, all reseller > inside EU community have to live with the fact, that local customs seize > their Freerunner order anytime. Openmoko removed the mp3 codecs from the images they supply, and from their repositories, causing frustration for many. I don't know what image they now ship with, but would be surprised if they haven't removed the mp3 codecs from that too. If it doesn't contain the codec it can't infringe the patent. What more do you expect them to do? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Freerunner's Future
Thanks Jeremy for your kind words. I've copied pat meier Johnson our PR person on the thread. Like you we believe there is a great positive story here. In addition, I've copied some of the key people in the Openmoko community to get their reaction to your ideas Jeremy McNaughton wrote: > Layoffs are always sad, and never an easy decision to make. To those > who are leaving the company, thanks for the great work. I wish the > best for your future endeavours and hope that you are able to remain > in the community in some way. > > I know I haven't really contributed much to the project. I'm not much > of a programmer and only have time to poke around on the phone every > other weekend or so. Still, I've read almost every thread on the > mailing list and have learned a great deal. > > I do have a fair bit of experience doing media relations for local > grassroots organizations and non-profits. My experience isn't with > software or technology, it's with anti-poverty activism and social > service work. Nonetheless, I have some feedback based on some > non-tech community organizing to share. > > Handing development of the Freerunner over to the community is a big > deal. There is a lot of opportunity here to get good press for both > Openmoko Inc. and the community. > > The way I see it, giving the phone to the community is every bit as > radical as launching an open source phone was in the first place. The > Openmoko community is now coordinating development of an updated > Freerunner (using Free software), there are multiple distros, lots of > apps, multiple phone gui apps. Not only that, but the mailing lists > are far from stagnant, and outside of openmoko.org, other parts of the > broader Openmoko community have their own mailing lists, wikis and > tracs. > > The key point here is that Openmoko succeeded in building a community > around its product. This is no easy task. Companies and > organizations with more resources behind them have tried this and not > succeeded nearly as well as Openmoko has. For this the company should > be commended. There's definitely a newsworthy story here as well. > > Naysayers might look at Openmoko handing responsibility for the > Freerunner to the community as a death knell for the project, or proof > that an open source phone can't work. Instead, it seems the > Freerunner is transitioning from a phone that was designed in house > and then open sourced, to a phone for which the hardware itself is > designed by an open source community. That's huge! > > There's a big difference between how the Freerunner was developed and > how the gta02-core is being developed, and that means that once again > Openmoko is breaking new ground. > > It may be a little early to bring this message to the media. It > probably makes sense to let the community have a chance to formalize a > bit, develop some structure. A Openmoko Foundation maybe? > > Anyways, once the dust settles maybe Openmoko could make a big > announcement about how the thriving community is in the process of > taking over development of the phone. It could be a chance for > Openmoko to get some good press for being innovative and altruistic. > It could also be a huge boon for the community, as it raises awareness > about the work being done and reaches out to potential new members. > Not to mention reminding people of all the incredible work that has > been done with these phones so far. > > Openmoko is a success story. Despite all the frustrations and delays, > a new community that develops open source phone technology has been > created. In the FLOSS podcast interview a few weeks ago (I think) > Sean spoke about how the Openmoko has reduced a lot of barriers to > phone development, potentially allowing the kind of garage workshop > innovations that led companies like Hewlett Packard or Apple. > Facilitating the community and that kind of development just lowered > one more barrier. > > > Well, that's my 2 cents. > > > Jeremy McNaughton > > > On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 3:20 PM, Harald Welte wrote: >> Thanks for your update, Sean! >> >> It's more than welcome to see Openmoko Inc. is still very much in support >> of the Freerunner/GTA02 and will provide the community with support in >> areas like the hosting infrastructure as well as the legal side (trademarks). >> >> I'm happy to see this transition and willing to help wherever I can. >> >> Regards and thank you once again, >>Harald >> -- >> - Harald Weltehttp://laforge.gnumonks.org/ >> >> "Privacy in residential applications is a desirable marketing option." >> (ETSI EN 300 175-7 Ch. A6) >> >> ___ >> Openmoko community mailing list >> community@lists.openmoko.org >> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community >> > >
Re: Freerunner's Future
WOW ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Freerunner's Future
Layoffs are always sad, and never an easy decision to make. To those who are leaving the company, thanks for the great work. I wish the best for your future endeavours and hope that you are able to remain in the community in some way. I know I haven't really contributed much to the project. I'm not much of a programmer and only have time to poke around on the phone every other weekend or so. Still, I've read almost every thread on the mailing list and have learned a great deal. I do have a fair bit of experience doing media relations for local grassroots organizations and non-profits. My experience isn't with software or technology, it's with anti-poverty activism and social service work. Nonetheless, I have some feedback based on some non-tech community organizing to share. Handing development of the Freerunner over to the community is a big deal. There is a lot of opportunity here to get good press for both Openmoko Inc. and the community. The way I see it, giving the phone to the community is every bit as radical as launching an open source phone was in the first place. The Openmoko community is now coordinating development of an updated Freerunner (using Free software), there are multiple distros, lots of apps, multiple phone gui apps. Not only that, but the mailing lists are far from stagnant, and outside of openmoko.org, other parts of the broader Openmoko community have their own mailing lists, wikis and tracs. The key point here is that Openmoko succeeded in building a community around its product. This is no easy task. Companies and organizations with more resources behind them have tried this and not succeeded nearly as well as Openmoko has. For this the company should be commended. There's definitely a newsworthy story here as well. Naysayers might look at Openmoko handing responsibility for the Freerunner to the community as a death knell for the project, or proof that an open source phone can't work. Instead, it seems the Freerunner is transitioning from a phone that was designed in house and then open sourced, to a phone for which the hardware itself is designed by an open source community. That's huge! There's a big difference between how the Freerunner was developed and how the gta02-core is being developed, and that means that once again Openmoko is breaking new ground. It may be a little early to bring this message to the media. It probably makes sense to let the community have a chance to formalize a bit, develop some structure. A Openmoko Foundation maybe? Anyways, once the dust settles maybe Openmoko could make a big announcement about how the thriving community is in the process of taking over development of the phone. It could be a chance for Openmoko to get some good press for being innovative and altruistic. It could also be a huge boon for the community, as it raises awareness about the work being done and reaches out to potential new members. Not to mention reminding people of all the incredible work that has been done with these phones so far. Openmoko is a success story. Despite all the frustrations and delays, a new community that develops open source phone technology has been created. In the FLOSS podcast interview a few weeks ago (I think) Sean spoke about how the Openmoko has reduced a lot of barriers to phone development, potentially allowing the kind of garage workshop innovations that led companies like Hewlett Packard or Apple. Facilitating the community and that kind of development just lowered one more barrier. Well, that's my 2 cents. Jeremy McNaughton On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 3:20 PM, Harald Welte wrote: > Thanks for your update, Sean! > > It's more than welcome to see Openmoko Inc. is still very much in support > of the Freerunner/GTA02 and will provide the community with support in > areas like the hosting infrastructure as well as the legal side (trademarks). > > I'm happy to see this transition and willing to help wherever I can. > > Regards and thank you once again, > Harald > -- > - Harald Welte http://laforge.gnumonks.org/ > > "Privacy in residential applications is a desirable marketing option." > (ETSI EN 300 175-7 Ch. A6) > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Freerunner's Future
Thanks for your update, Sean! It's more than welcome to see Openmoko Inc. is still very much in support of the Freerunner/GTA02 and will provide the community with support in areas like the hosting infrastructure as well as the legal side (trademarks). I'm happy to see this transition and willing to help wherever I can. Regards and thank you once again, Harald -- - Harald Weltehttp://laforge.gnumonks.org/ "Privacy in residential applications is a desirable marketing option." (ETSI EN 300 175-7 Ch. A6) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Freerunner's Future
Sean, thanks for the update ! It is unfortunate that Openmoko Inc. cannot presently continue to lead the development of the open phone. But then, many a great undertaking has required more than one effort before reaching its goal. Anything that brings us closer to that goal is a success in itself, and the value of previous achievements is often only appreciated in the light of the final result. I'm very glad that Openmoko Inc. has not only brought the vision of the ubiquituous open phone this much closer to its realization, but that you are also willing to help us to ease the transition from a project centered around a single company to a true community effort. In the name of the gta02-core project, I'm particularly grateful to you and the board for supporting this effort with further material and components. This will be critical for enabling us to open up the engineering process with our moderate resources. Alright, I think we all have a lot of work lined up for the future. I hope we'll all have the opportunity to envy each other's before too long ! :-) - Werner ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Freerunner's Future
On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 1:55 AM, Dave Ball wrote: > Rui Miguel Silva Seabra wrote: >> On Wed, Jun 03, 2009 at 12:30:21AM +0400, Alexander Chemeris wrote: >> >>> On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 8:44 PM, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra >>> wrote: >>> For now, I'm hoping my Freerunner improves enough to last long, as I don't expect another Free Software phone to come up anytime soon. >>> Don't forget about GizmoForYou project with its Flow, as just an example: >>> http://www.gizmoforyou.com/comment.php?comment.news.41 >>> >> Flow looks sleek, but what about it's commitment to Free Software? I really >> don't know, can you help me know more? >> > > The flow project itself seems pretty open, but it depends on gumsticks, > which have closed hardware but seem to be widely supported by open > software & corresponding communities. That's true. Gumstix open-sources expansion modules and connector specs, but base modules are kept proprietary. Flow project itself is pretty much open. IIRC schematics are open and software is open for sure (they target Android for now). It may be interesting to port OM to it to broaden hardware support and increase community volume. > It sounds an interesting project, and will be available much sooner than > the gta02-core or 'future' work which we have started, although these OM > / gta derivatives might have more potential in the longer term. yeah. Also Flow's advantage is its modularity. On the other hand, I think Flow costs more then Freerunner. But we'll see how much gta02-core result will cost at the end. So, it's an interesting alternative and worth looking into, imho. -- Regards, Alexander Chemeris. SIPez LLC. SIP VoIP, IM and Presence Consulting http://www.SIPez.com tel: +1 (617) 273-4000 ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Freerunner's Future
Risto H. Kurppa wrote: > Thanks Sean for this announcement! > > It's appreciated to get a status update from OM of things we've heard > rumors of. I'm very happy that OM got this far with the phones: we > have some tens of thousands (better guess anyone?) of Linux phones > around the world, various open/free distros to run on the HW and means > to communicate to make it better. I think OM was decent on the > hardware side, it's a great achievement to have manufactured a > open/free Linux-phone. Thank you for that, thank you everyone who > worked on OM for this! > ditto! :-) And also thanks for the commitments to opening up further details, designs and marks in support of the community, and providing the om.org infrastructure we're using. > Now as the community will go 'wild', I'd now, more than ever, like to > see good leadership practices to organize and guide the community. If > you ask me where OM failed, it's this: managing and leading the > community. So I think we'd need some direction where to make people > go, who don't know where to go. We have around 20 distros and phone > apps - I wouldn't like to see this all break in small sub-projects > that all do the same work and don't communicate, but one single big > project that'd actually take us somewhere. Diversity has it's advantage, though focus on a smaller number of projects has it's own benefits too. I think it's great that FSO has resulted in a stable platform that most of the current distros rely on and benefit from. While there remains interest in the current (or future) distros, my personal feeling is that we shouldn't try to kill one, in favour of another. They currently all have strengths and weaknesses, and the community as a whole gets strength from their diversity. We should collaborate on any common ground (kernel, fso?, illume?), and allow distributions to differentiate where they see appropriate. I think you are spot on though that we need to be better organised, and as individuals, communities and 'leaders' (if that's appropriate) have clear asperations and achievable objectives. Overall, I think clarity and sensible organisation will allow the community(ies) to flourish, while supporting as much diversity as the different sectors of our community want. Dave ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Freerunner's Future
Rui Miguel Silva Seabra wrote: > On Wed, Jun 03, 2009 at 12:30:21AM +0400, Alexander Chemeris wrote: > >> On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 8:44 PM, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra >> wrote: >> >>> For now, I'm hoping my Freerunner improves enough to last long, as I don't >>> expect another Free Software phone to come up anytime soon. >>> >> Don't forget about GizmoForYou project with its Flow, as just an example: >> http://www.gizmoforyou.com/comment.php?comment.news.41 >> > Flow looks sleek, but what about it's commitment to Free Software? I really > don't know, can you help me know more? > The flow project itself seems pretty open, but it depends on gumsticks, which have closed hardware but seem to be widely supported by open software & corresponding communities. It sounds an interesting project, and will be available much sooner than the gta02-core or 'future' work which we have started, although these OM / gta derivatives might have more potential in the longer term. I echo everyone elses thanks to Sean and the rest of the team that have had involvement with OM - you guys both achieved a lot, and did so openly in a way that gives us a platform to build from. Through the last couple of years and now, thanks for communicating as openly as you have. It's down to us now, and I look forward to both contributing myself, and benefiting from the contributions from the whole community. Dave ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Freerunner's Future
Thanks Sean for this announcement! It's appreciated to get a status update from OM of things we've heard rumors of. I'm very happy that OM got this far with the phones: we have some tens of thousands (better guess anyone?) of Linux phones around the world, various open/free distros to run on the HW and means to communicate to make it better. I think OM was decent on the hardware side, it's a great achievement to have manufactured a open/free Linux-phone. Thank you for that, thank you everyone who worked on OM for this! In the future, it'll be interesting to see where gta02-core takes us, if there will be some other open hardware around to run the apps and distros we've created for neo1973 and Freerunner. I hope that the rest of the A7 freerunners will find to good hands, to good an enthusiastic developers to boost the community to get the most out of our hardware. On the software side, there has been some glitches and the community has been lacking the direction. At the moment I myself trust on OM2009 (who knows if there will be a SHR2009 with SHR and OM2009 together) and Paroli (Started by Openmoko and still being worked on by people from Openmoko, now also a community is involved that's growing all the time..). But I see that it's difficult for Openmoko to generate more income by writing software so concentrating on hardware seems like a smart choice, as long as there's a community to make the hardware useful with the software they create. Now as the community will go 'wild', I'd now, more than ever, like to see good leadership practices to organize and guide the community. If you ask me where OM failed, it's this: managing and leading the community. So I think we'd need some direction where to make people go, who don't know where to go. We have around 20 distros and phone apps - I wouldn't like to see this all break in small sub-projects that all do the same work and don't communicate, but one single big project that'd actually take us somewhere. I'd like to see some kind of democratic structure created to guide us somewhere where most of us want to go. http://aseigo.blogspot.com/2009/01/building-community-around-your-foss.html Thank you Openmoko, I wish you all the best with project B. Hope you generate enough money to roll out new open phones :) r -- | risto h. kurppa | risto at kurppa dot fi | http://risto.kurppa.fi ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Freerunner's Future
On Wed, Jun 03, 2009 at 12:30:21AM +0400, Alexander Chemeris wrote: > On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 8:44 PM, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra wrote: > > For now, I'm hoping my Freerunner improves enough to last long, as I don't > > expect another Free Software phone to come up anytime soon. > > I wouldn't be so much sure. > Don't forget about GizmoForYou project with its Flow, as just an example: > http://www.gizmoforyou.com/comment.php?comment.news.41 > > FreeRunner has a huge advantage of having the good community, but you > shouldn't say that it's the only viable choice out there. Flow looks sleek, but what about it's commitment to Free Software? I really don't know, can you help me know more? Rui ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Freerunner's Future
On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 8:44 PM, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra wrote: > For now, I'm hoping my Freerunner improves enough to last long, as I don't > expect another Free Software phone to come up anytime soon. I wouldn't be so much sure. Don't forget about GizmoForYou project with its Flow, as just an example: http://www.gizmoforyou.com/comment.php?comment.news.41 FreeRunner has a huge advantage of having the good community, but you shouldn't say that it's the only viable choice out there. -- Regards, Alexander Chemeris. SIPez LLC. SIP VoIP, IM and Presence Consulting http://www.SIPez.com tel: +1 (617) 273-4000 ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Freerunner's Future
Hi Nelson, Thanks good to hear from you. I really enjoyed the pictures you gave me from our last time together in Taipei. Anything you can do to help will be appreciated. Steve Nelson Castillo wrote: > On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 3:56 PM, Steve Mosher wrote: > >> Community, >> >>To start off I have this list of proposed FAQs kindly generated by >> Werner. I'm going to ask for a volunteer to incorpoate this into an >> appropriate place in the wiki. >> >> Any takers? >> > > Hello Steve. > > >> - How will the kernel be maintained ? >> > > I'll ask for feedback about this in the kernel mailing list and help > with the FAQ wiki page (If someone else wants to help also please by > all means do). I'll send the email today. > > Nelson.- > ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Freerunner's Future
On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 3:56 PM, Steve Mosher wrote: > Community, > > To start off I have this list of proposed FAQs kindly generated by > Werner. I'm going to ask for a volunteer to incorpoate this into an > appropriate place in the wiki. > > Any takers? Hello Steve. > - How will the kernel be maintained ? I'll ask for feedback about this in the kernel mailing list and help with the FAQ wiki page (If someone else wants to help also please by all means do). I'll send the email today. Nelson.- ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Freerunner's Future
Community, To start off I have this list of proposed FAQs kindly generated by Werner. I'm going to ask for a volunteer to incorpoate this into an appropriate place in the wiki. Any takers? After the FAQ gets incorporated then we can start to fill it up. Also, I want to start a "wish list" or Suggestion list for what kinds of things OM can do to smooth this transition. here is Werners List. Adjust as you see fit for presentation. - I'm using OM2008/2009 now. Will this distribution still be maintained ? Should I switch ? How ? What will change, what do I have to learn/unlearn ? - What will happen with FSO ? Will development continue ? Will a distribution carry it ? - What will happen with Paroli ? Will development continue ? Will a distribution carry it ? - How will the kernel be maintained ? - Will Openmoko continue selling FreeRunners ? For how long ? - I have a purchase/return/warranty/etc. in progress with Openmoko Inc. or a distributor. What will happen ? - I have buzz/#1024/no bass/etc. Can I still get it fixed ? How ? - Will the Openmoko Internet resources, Wiki, mailing lists, SVN, git, downloads, people, trac, etc., be shut down ? - Will "project B" continue ? - What's the future of Open phone hardware without Openmoko Inc. ? Steve Mosher wrote: > No, it will not impact the program. > >I just sealed the deal on that this morning! of course there are > details to be worked out so watch this space. > > 1. we sent out instructions to all the disty a while back. > 2. one of our North american partners had requested the package to > perform the work ( like Dr. Ns program) > 3. because of the layoff the mail went unanswered for a few days. > 4. the disty wrote me directly and I hooked them up with sean who was on > the matter in 5 minutes of my mail. > 5. Sean has assigned a person to make this happen. > > I'm working with that disty to make sure that they benefit from Dr. Ns > approach, so we dont re invent the wheel. > > I know you guys have been very patient with us. I trust you wont be > disappointed. > > Finally, I would like to thank Dr. N for his tireless efforts and > imagination in getting this done. And lets not forget david at Tuxbrain. > A bunch of people tried things they have never done before to keep > customers happy. > > Steve > > Lon Lentz wrote: >> Steve, >> >> Is this going to affect OM trying to find us Americans someone to >> implement all of the pending hardware fixes? >> >> >> On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 1:30 PM, Steve Mosher wrote: >> >>> Thanks Sean for the kind words and for the opportunity to do something >>> unique. i spent some time thinking about how I want to organize >>> the community responses. I have a list of FAQs from werner ( somewhere >>> here in the pile of mail) and I want to solicit ideas from the community >>> on what OM can do to support the community efforts. >>> >>> > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Freerunner's Future
Hi Sean, Thanks for the honesty. I'd like to echo Rui's thank you - I've survived a couple of lay-offs in my day, and I know it's not pleasant for anyone involved. I hope that OpenMoko thrives in it's new form. I've been using my FR as my daily phone for about 6 months now, first with QtE and recently with OM2009, and although I've had the occasional missed call, it's overall been an OK experience, and it is getting better and better... You have my hopes for smooth sailing and a successful future! Warren On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 11:59 AM, Sean Moss-Pultz wrote: > Dear Community, > > As some of you have heard, we had a layoff at Openmoko on Monday, May > 25th. First of all let me second the comments made here congratulating > the Openmoko team on all that was accomplished. And let me add that > everything accomplished was only possible because of the amazing > efforts of the community. > > Bringing the Neo products to market, first the 1973 and then the > Freerunner, has been the most exceptional experience of our lives. I > can undeniably say that the most important thing we have learned over > these years is that the power of people bound by ideals, rather than > contracts, cannot be underestimated. These phones are your success. > From simple things like group sales to complex undertakings like > developing and maintaining entire distributions, you made this happen. > You always came through for us. As CEO, I have to determine the best > path forward for our phone business. And after long discussions with > my key people and Board, we've decided that the best path foreword is > to turn the future of the Freerunner over to the community. > > We've always said that the talent and creativity of those outside the > company is superior to that inside the company. We have stuck to these > principles. We've have opened up more than any other phone, from any > other company, in the history of this industry. Every time we chose > openness over internal control, we have been rewarded. > > Former Openmoko employees have already started redesigning the > Freerunner hardware (gta02-core) using only Free Software tools. > Werner Almesberger, working with many others, has made great progress. > Recently, we have released more information to accelerate their > efforts. In the coming weeks, all the design information will be > handed over to the community along with all of openmoko.org (Wiki, > GIT, Trac, Planet, ...). Openmoko Inc. then will act as the sponsor of > this effort. We will continue to fund all necessary server > infrastructure and support, in areas where corporate help is needed, > future open phone development. (Parts of this process will require > legal work - so I request your patience.) > > I am extremely excited about the idea of an entirely community-built > open phone. Especially since, when the next design is complete, it > will have the benefits of everything uncovered since the Freerunner > shipped last July. It will be buzz free, glamo free, and free of the > recamping bug (#1024) - which I am happy to announce has been solved > this past week. We promise to support these efforts with additional > resources such as components to build prototypes of the new design. We > will help to empower you to build the open phone of our future. > > After all this, there is one last thing that Openmoko the company can > do: we can enable the community to use the Openmoko brand and > trademark for these efforts. For us, the Openmoko brand is synonymous > with the people who built the products: Harald, Mickey, Werner, > Raster, all of my coworkers in our Taiwan office, Sureda, Tuxbrain, > Bearstech, and countless others. I personally want to give an extra > special thanks to Steve Mosher who has taught me so much about > marketing, writing, and well...life. Without his guidance, this all > would have only been an idea in my notebook. > > I have asked Steve to lead an effort, over the next few weeks, to > gather input from the community on how best to implement this > transition. (He will follow up shortly on the community mailing list.) > As always we can expect some negative comments, that comes with the > territory. But we believe a community that owns everything of > importance, with regard to the Freerunner, will focus efforts and > energies on the future - not the past. > > Sales of the current FreeRunner (A7), will continue as before. We have > plenty more in stock. Now that the phone is freed, and its future > entrusted to the hands of the community, Openmoko Inc. will start > another effort on an altogether different type of device. We've sized > our company to go do that task. Please wish us the very best of luck! > More details will follow in the coming months... > > > Sincerely, > > Sean Moss-Pultz > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > -- Warren Baird - P
Re: Freerunner's Future
No, it will not impact the program. I just sealed the deal on that this morning! of course there are details to be worked out so watch this space. 1. we sent out instructions to all the disty a while back. 2. one of our North american partners had requested the package to perform the work ( like Dr. Ns program) 3. because of the layoff the mail went unanswered for a few days. 4. the disty wrote me directly and I hooked them up with sean who was on the matter in 5 minutes of my mail. 5. Sean has assigned a person to make this happen. I'm working with that disty to make sure that they benefit from Dr. Ns approach, so we dont re invent the wheel. I know you guys have been very patient with us. I trust you wont be disappointed. Finally, I would like to thank Dr. N for his tireless efforts and imagination in getting this done. And lets not forget david at Tuxbrain. A bunch of people tried things they have never done before to keep customers happy. Steve Lon Lentz wrote: > Steve, > > Is this going to affect OM trying to find us Americans someone to > implement all of the pending hardware fixes? > > > On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 1:30 PM, Steve Mosher wrote: > >> Thanks Sean for the kind words and for the opportunity to do something >> unique. i spent some time thinking about how I want to organize >> the community responses. I have a list of FAQs from werner ( somewhere >> here in the pile of mail) and I want to solicit ideas from the community >> on what OM can do to support the community efforts. >> >> > ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Freerunner's Future
Steve, Is this going to affect OM trying to find us Americans someone to implement all of the pending hardware fixes? On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 1:30 PM, Steve Mosher wrote: > Thanks Sean for the kind words and for the opportunity to do something > unique. i spent some time thinking about how I want to organize > the community responses. I have a list of FAQs from werner ( somewhere > here in the pile of mail) and I want to solicit ideas from the community > on what OM can do to support the community efforts. > > ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Freerunner's Future
Thanks Sean for the kind words and for the opportunity to do something unique. i spent some time thinking about how I want to organize the community responses. I have a list of FAQs from werner ( somewhere here in the pile of mail) and I want to solicit ideas from the community on what OM can do to support the community efforts. I am leaning toward putting Werner's FAQ on the wiki and also having a wiki entry for a community "wish list" where the wishes are directed at how OM can help. Anybody who is better at wiki than me volunteer, please. Steve Sean Moss-Pultz wrote: > Dear Community, > > As some of you have heard, we had a layoff at Openmoko on Monday, May > 25th. First of all let me second the comments made here congratulating > the Openmoko team on all that was accomplished. And let me add that > everything accomplished was only possible because of the amazing > efforts of the community. > > Bringing the Neo products to market, first the 1973 and then the > Freerunner, has been the most exceptional experience of our lives. I > can undeniably say that the most important thing we have learned over > these years is that the power of people bound by ideals, rather than > contracts, cannot be underestimated. These phones are your success. >>From simple things like group sales to complex undertakings like > developing and maintaining entire distributions, you made this happen. > You always came through for us. As CEO, I have to determine the best > path forward for our phone business. And after long discussions with > my key people and Board, we've decided that the best path foreword is > to turn the future of the Freerunner over to the community. > > We've always said that the talent and creativity of those outside the > company is superior to that inside the company. We have stuck to these > principles. We've have opened up more than any other phone, from any > other company, in the history of this industry. Every time we chose > openness over internal control, we have been rewarded. > > Former Openmoko employees have already started redesigning the > Freerunner hardware (gta02-core) using only Free Software tools. > Werner Almesberger, working with many others, has made great progress. > Recently, we have released more information to accelerate their > efforts. In the coming weeks, all the design information will be > handed over to the community along with all of openmoko.org (Wiki, > GIT, Trac, Planet, ...). Openmoko Inc. then will act as the sponsor of > this effort. We will continue to fund all necessary server > infrastructure and support, in areas where corporate help is needed, > future open phone development. (Parts of this process will require > legal work - so I request your patience.) > > I am extremely excited about the idea of an entirely community-built > open phone. Especially since, when the next design is complete, it > will have the benefits of everything uncovered since the Freerunner > shipped last July. It will be buzz free, glamo free, and free of the > recamping bug (#1024) - which I am happy to announce has been solved > this past week. We promise to support these efforts with additional > resources such as components to build prototypes of the new design. We > will help to empower you to build the open phone of our future. > > After all this, there is one last thing that Openmoko the company can > do: we can enable the community to use the Openmoko brand and > trademark for these efforts. For us, the Openmoko brand is synonymous > with the people who built the products: Harald, Mickey, Werner, > Raster, all of my coworkers in our Taiwan office, Sureda, Tuxbrain, > Bearstech, and countless others. I personally want to give an extra > special thanks to Steve Mosher who has taught me so much about > marketing, writing, and well...life. Without his guidance, this all > would have only been an idea in my notebook. > > I have asked Steve to lead an effort, over the next few weeks, to > gather input from the community on how best to implement this > transition. (He will follow up shortly on the community mailing list.) > As always we can expect some negative comments, that comes with the > territory. But we believe a community that owns everything of > importance, with regard to the Freerunner, will focus efforts and > energies on the future - not the past. > > Sales of the current FreeRunner (A7), will continue as before. We have > plenty more in stock. Now that the phone is freed, and its future > entrusted to the hands of the community, Openmoko Inc. will start > another effort on an altogether different type of device. We've sized > our company to go do that task. Please wish us the very best of luck! > More details will follow in the coming months... > > > Sincerely, > > Sean Moss-Pultz > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community >
Re: Freerunner's Future
Hi Sean, Thanks for all the fish :) [fortunatly without a "So long and" in the beggining] and most of all thanks for communicating all this. Most companies are not so bravely outspoken, and I'm only sad it didn't go better in the "end". As a phoenix, it has the potential to rebirth as a glorious firebird. Moving along, although the phone is very open, there are a few problems that are hidden under NDAs. Without improvement in this area, I fear the Freerunner is as good as dead, and only the next model will have some hope. For now, I'm hoping my Freerunner improves enough to last long, as I don't expect another Free Software phone to come up anytime soon. Best of luck on the new venture, Rui ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Freerunner's Future
Dear Community, As some of you have heard, we had a layoff at Openmoko on Monday, May 25th. First of all let me second the comments made here congratulating the Openmoko team on all that was accomplished. And let me add that everything accomplished was only possible because of the amazing efforts of the community. Bringing the Neo products to market, first the 1973 and then the Freerunner, has been the most exceptional experience of our lives. I can undeniably say that the most important thing we have learned over these years is that the power of people bound by ideals, rather than contracts, cannot be underestimated. These phones are your success. >From simple things like group sales to complex undertakings like developing and maintaining entire distributions, you made this happen. You always came through for us. As CEO, I have to determine the best path forward for our phone business. And after long discussions with my key people and Board, we've decided that the best path foreword is to turn the future of the Freerunner over to the community. We've always said that the talent and creativity of those outside the company is superior to that inside the company. We have stuck to these principles. We've have opened up more than any other phone, from any other company, in the history of this industry. Every time we chose openness over internal control, we have been rewarded. Former Openmoko employees have already started redesigning the Freerunner hardware (gta02-core) using only Free Software tools. Werner Almesberger, working with many others, has made great progress. Recently, we have released more information to accelerate their efforts. In the coming weeks, all the design information will be handed over to the community along with all of openmoko.org (Wiki, GIT, Trac, Planet, ...). Openmoko Inc. then will act as the sponsor of this effort. We will continue to fund all necessary server infrastructure and support, in areas where corporate help is needed, future open phone development. (Parts of this process will require legal work - so I request your patience.) I am extremely excited about the idea of an entirely community-built open phone. Especially since, when the next design is complete, it will have the benefits of everything uncovered since the Freerunner shipped last July. It will be buzz free, glamo free, and free of the recamping bug (#1024) - which I am happy to announce has been solved this past week. We promise to support these efforts with additional resources such as components to build prototypes of the new design. We will help to empower you to build the open phone of our future. After all this, there is one last thing that Openmoko the company can do: we can enable the community to use the Openmoko brand and trademark for these efforts. For us, the Openmoko brand is synonymous with the people who built the products: Harald, Mickey, Werner, Raster, all of my coworkers in our Taiwan office, Sureda, Tuxbrain, Bearstech, and countless others. I personally want to give an extra special thanks to Steve Mosher who has taught me so much about marketing, writing, and well...life. Without his guidance, this all would have only been an idea in my notebook. I have asked Steve to lead an effort, over the next few weeks, to gather input from the community on how best to implement this transition. (He will follow up shortly on the community mailing list.) As always we can expect some negative comments, that comes with the territory. But we believe a community that owns everything of importance, with regard to the Freerunner, will focus efforts and energies on the future - not the past. Sales of the current FreeRunner (A7), will continue as before. We have plenty more in stock. Now that the phone is freed, and its future entrusted to the hands of the community, Openmoko Inc. will start another effort on an altogether different type of device. We've sized our company to go do that task. Please wish us the very best of luck! More details will follow in the coming months... Sincerely, Sean Moss-Pultz ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Is Multi-touch in Freerunner's Future?
On Sat, 12 Jul 2008 15:09:41 +0200 "Marco Trevisan (Treviño)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> babbled: > Kelvie Wong wrote: > > On Fri, Jul 11, 2008 at 11:08 PM, Charles Pax <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> Will we ever see multi-touch on the current Freerunner hardware revision? I > >> remember hearing something about how it's supported by the hardware, but > >> we're limited by X.org. > >> > >> -Charles > > > > Actually, X.org supports it (google for MPX), the hardware does not. > > Well, read last posts by the MPX author about multi-pointer vs > multi-touch. It isn't the same thing. So, actually it should be easier > to implement, but I don't know if it's completely available yet. indeed multi-touch != multipointer - peter is right. multitouch devices could be exported by xinput devices (The same ones used for wacom tablets for example that gimp and inkscape can use). BUT u'd need software to catch up and then actually use the xinput devices and interpret their input sensibly and frankly THAT is a big problem. as such freerunner does not have multitouch. freerunner is a product. its future is staying exactly as it is - it is not a LINE of products. a future device openmoko makes may or may not have multitouch, but as such we have enough work and problem getting single touch working right and all the apps in a state of "this is good enough for a mere mortal to use". multitouch is just a complete distraction until then that will waste time. -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Is Multi-touch in Freerunner's Future?
I agree, one of the coolest features of the IPhone is its multi touch capability to zoom or do multi select. Scott Charles Pax wrote: > Will we ever see multi-touch on the current Freerunner hardware > revision? I remember hearing something about how it's supported by the > hardware, but we're limited by X.org. > > -Charles > > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > -- - As nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression. In both instances, there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly unchanged. And it is in such twilight that we all must be most aware of change in the air however slight lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness. William O. Douglas, Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Is Multi-touch in Freerunner's Future?
Kelvie Wong wrote: > On Fri, Jul 11, 2008 at 11:08 PM, Charles Pax <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> Will we ever see multi-touch on the current Freerunner hardware revision? I >> remember hearing something about how it's supported by the hardware, but >> we're limited by X.org. >> >> -Charles > > Actually, X.org supports it (google for MPX), the hardware does not. Well, read last posts by the MPX author about multi-pointer vs multi-touch. It isn't the same thing. So, actually it should be easier to implement, but I don't know if it's completely available yet. -- Treviño's World - Life and Linux http://www.3v1n0.net/ ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Is Multi-touch in Freerunner's Future?
On Fri, Jul 11, 2008 at 11:08 PM, Charles Pax <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Will we ever see multi-touch on the current Freerunner hardware revision? I > remember hearing something about how it's supported by the hardware, but > we're limited by X.org. > > -Charles Actually, X.org supports it (google for MPX), the hardware does not. -- Kelvie Wong ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Is Multi-touch in Freerunner's Future?
Will we ever see multi-touch on the current Freerunner hardware revision? I remember hearing something about how it's supported by the hardware, but we're limited by X.org. -Charles ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
