My word on GPRS (was: How Slow Is Fast?)
Am Donnerstag 03 Juli 2008 08:21:50 schrieb Knight Walker: Anyone who has paid attention to this mailing list over the last few months has seen the It doesn't have 3G, it's worthless messages about the FreeRunner. For me (And many, many others) having a fast, power-hungry wireless pipe to the phone isn't as important as everything else the FreeRunner brings to the table. But I do have a question: What kind of thru-put can we expect to see from the GPRS radio in the FreeRunner? Is it 2k/sec dial-up speed? I have just did some measurements and I have achieved a sustained throughput of about 5K/sec. It's not stellar, but you can actually do a lot with that, if you're a bit clever. People have lived for decades with slower landline modems. Also, and I know this has been talked about before, but is the final word that the GPRS can or cannot be active at the same time as the GSM (Class B or whatever it's called)? An ongoing GPRS connection would be really nice but if it can suspend/resume decently (Something like v.92 on modems if anyone remembers those). I just did some tests with our framework and here's my first (not final) word on it: You can activate a GPRS context, have the ppp0 interface automatically setup and transmit data. Two cases now: a) If you want to dial out, just dial out. The ppp0 interface will keep being up, but will not be able to transmit any data while you're calling, e.g. a wget will be stalling, pings will hang. Once you hangup, the context will automatically be resumed, wget will continue, pings will return. b) If you want to receive calls, the connection needs to be idle. You can safely have an activated context (i.e. i was able to log in via SSH) being idle and then you will get your incoming call notifications. Note though, once someone wants to call you while you are not idling, i.e. during a long wget, you will not get any call notifications. Instead, the network will think you are not reachable and -- if configured -- send you to the voice mailbox. All in all, considering the age of the TI Calypso, I'm quite satisfied with the possibilites this gives us. Yes, it's not perfect. Yes, I'd love to have more. But I can already do a lot. Hope that helps, -- :M: ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: My word on GPRS (was: How Slow Is Fast?)
to, 2008-07-03 kello 21:35 +0200, Michael 'Mickey' Lauer kirjoitti: Note though, once someone wants to call you while you are not idling, i.e. during a long wget, you will not get any call notifications. Instead, the network will think you are not reachable and -- if configured -- send you to the voice mailbox. Umh. Disappointing. Is this really the best it can do or best that has been coaxed out of it so far? -- Mikko Rauhala - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - URL:http://www.iki.fi/mjr/ Transhumanist - WTA member - URL:http://www.transhumanism.org/ Singularitarian - SIAI supporter - URL:http://www.singinst.org/ ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: My word on GPRS (was: How Slow Is Fast?)
On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 4:02 PM, Mikko Rauhala [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Umh. Disappointing. Is this really the best it can do or best that has been coaxed out of it so far? This is the case with all gprs/edge capable phones - it has nothing to do with the neo specifically. 3G radios can maintain both voice and data at the same time; 2 and 2.5G radios cannot. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: My word on GPRS (was: How Slow Is Fast?)
This is all the same on both the original Neo1973 and the Freerunner, right? Is the FSO image OK for doing GPRS? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: My word on GPRS (was: How Slow Is Fast?)
Would be possible to do some sort of bandwidth throttling of the GPRS data connection, or pausing data traffic briefly with some interval to make sure that incoming calls get through? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: My word on GPRS
Michael 'Mickey' Lauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: b) If you want to receive calls, the connection needs to be idle. You can safely have an activated context (i.e. i was able to log in via SSH) being idle and then you will get your incoming call notifications. Note though, once someone wants to call you while you are not idling, i.e. during a long wget, you will not get any call notifications. Instead, the network will think you are not reachable and -- if configured -- send you to the voice mailbox. Is this a limitation of the chipset or the software stack? My ancient Nokia 7610 will interrupt an active GPRS connection when incoming calls are received. -- Corinne: this is why we should have designated bath buddies Corinne: to get places you cant reach because youre slippery and in case you get a lil tooo slippery and crack your head open someone can call the coast guard and save you ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: My word on GPRS
Am Donnerstag 03 Juli 2008 23:02:07 schrieb Clinton Ebadi: Michael 'Mickey' Lauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: b) If you want to receive calls, the connection needs to be idle. You can safely have an activated context (i.e. i was able to log in via SSH) being idle and then you will get your incoming call notifications. Note though, once someone wants to call you while you are not idling, i.e. during a long wget, you will not get any call notifications. Instead, the network will think you are not reachable and -- if configured -- send you to the voice mailbox. Is this a limitation of the chipset or the software stack? To be honest, I have no clue (yet). Perhaps there are some additional configuration options which I do not have explored yet. This is just my first results. -- :M: ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: My word on GPRS (was: How Slow Is Fast?)
Am Donnerstag 03 Juli 2008 22:55:48 schrieb Shawn Rutledge: This is all the same on both the original Neo1973 and the Freerunner, right? Is the FSO image OK for doing GPRS? milestone1 did not contain any gprs features. milestone2 was not supposed to have, but since people have approached me a lot about that, I promised to take a look -- and it was quite simple ;) GPRS is now working fine in framework git, just not deployed into an image yet. Try building an image and see for yourself. (Note that I don't guarantee builds between milestones to be stable, I have not enough resources to do that). -- :M: ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: My word on GPRS (was: How Slow Is Fast?)
Really, the chances of your connection being *constantly* in use is pretty small. You'd have to be downloading a relatively large file or something that has 0 ms of idle time. I'm pretty sure this wouldn't happen during normal use. For example, you're browsing the web. You'd pull up a webpage. Maybe during the few seconds this takes to load, your phone won't ring. But, as soon as that page is loaded, you'd get the call. And that's worst case. Chances are, the loading of the webpage acts as loading several smaller files where it would get interrupted halfway through by a phone call. -Steven On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 3:22 PM, Mikko Rauhala [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: to, 2008-07-03 kello 16:15 -0400, Nkoli kirjoitti: On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 4:02 PM, Mikko Rauhala [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Umh. Disappointing. Is this really the best it can do or best that has been coaxed out of it so far? This is the case with all gprs/edge capable phones - it has nothing to do with the neo specifically. 3G radios can maintain both voice and data at the same time; 2 and 2.5G radios cannot. I know that, but that the signaling of an incoming voice call won't necessarily make it through if the GPRS is in constant use was news to me. To be fair, I don't have a clue if my previous GPRS phones have also actually behaved in this manner hidden from me... -- Mikko Rauhala - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - URL:http://www.iki.fi/mjr/ Transhumanist - WTA member - URL:http://www.transhumanism.org/ Singularitarian - SIAI supporter - URL:http://www.singinst.org/ ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: My word on GPRS
I wonder how feasible/effective it would be to do some extra realtime compression on the GPRS data link? Make a connection to your home Linux box to terminate the compression and connect you out to the internet from there. I'm not sure how GPRS works exactly, it may already use compression that can't really be improved upon etc.. but it might be something to think about. Even and improvement from 5KB/s to 8KB/s would be nice. Ben. Michael 'Mickey' Lauer wrote: Am Donnerstag 03 Juli 2008 08:21:50 schrieb Knight Walker: Anyone who has paid attention to this mailing list over the last few months has seen the It doesn't have 3G, it's worthless messages about the FreeRunner. For me (And many, many others) having a fast, power-hungry wireless pipe to the phone isn't as important as everything else the FreeRunner brings to the table. But I do have a question: What kind of thru-put can we expect to see from the GPRS radio in the FreeRunner? Is it 2k/sec dial-up speed? I have just did some measurements and I have achieved a sustained throughput of about 5K/sec. It's not stellar, but you can actually do a lot with that, if you're a bit clever. People have lived for decades with slower landline modems. Also, and I know this has been talked about before, but is the final word that the GPRS can or cannot be active at the same time as the GSM (Class B or whatever it's called)? An ongoing GPRS connection would be really nice but if it can suspend/resume decently (Something like v.92 on modems if anyone remembers those). I just did some tests with our framework and here's my first (not final) word on it: You can activate a GPRS context, have the ppp0 interface automatically setup and transmit data. Two cases now: a) If you want to dial out, just dial out. The ppp0 interface will keep being up, but will not be able to transmit any data while you're calling, e.g. a wget will be stalling, pings will hang. Once you hangup, the context will automatically be resumed, wget will continue, pings will return. b) If you want to receive calls, the connection needs to be idle. You can safely have an activated context (i.e. i was able to log in via SSH) being idle and then you will get your incoming call notifications. Note though, once someone wants to call you while you are not idling, i.e. during a long wget, you will not get any call notifications. Instead, the network will think you are not reachable and -- if configured -- send you to the voice mailbox. All in all, considering the age of the TI Calypso, I'm quite satisfied with the possibilites this gives us. Yes, it's not perfect. Yes, I'd love to have more. But I can already do a lot. Hope that helps, ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: My word on GPRS
Ben I wonder how feasible/effective it would be to do some extra realtime compression on the GPRS data link? ppp tries to compress it already, yes. some carriers stuck with gprs rates used to try payload manipulation. one way is with an http proxy that removes fidelity from images before sending them across the slow link. t-mobile in the US did this. maybe they still have it as an option. -- Brad ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
