Re: 3G? What about CDMA?
I believe CDMA is a proprietary technology owned/licensed/patented by Qualcom. If that is correct, you'd have to license to use the patent. Kind of conflicts with the idea of an "open" phone. I guess no more so than some of the GSM stuff... but hey.. who knows. On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 11:02 AM, Steven ** < [EMAIL PROTECTED]<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> wrote: > I talk with friends and co-workers about OpenMoko and the Neo > Freerunner all the time. Inevitably, they say something like "That's > cool. Will it work with Verizon?" or "That's cool. Will it work with > Sprint?". And of course, the answer is no... I don't think any of my > friends are with at&t (even though they're supposedly the largest > wireless carrier in the US) or any other GSM provider. They're all on > Sprint or Verizon. I myself was originally on Verizon and switched to > at&t solely for the Neo. But most people aren't willing to do that > (and most are locked into contracts with a $250+ early termination > fee). > > So, have you considered making a CDMA version of the Neo? I think > that'd about double your sales in the US. > > -Steven > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: 3G? What about CDMA?
Steven > I talk with friends and co-workers about OpenMoko and the Neo > Freerunner all the time. Inevitably, they say something like "That's > cool. Will it work with Verizon?" I believe making something that will work with verizon/sprint is not just a technical but also political task. The politics might ultimately be in conflict with the mission of openness for neo In the GSM world, you swap the sim and just expect it to work (gsm carriers rarely blacklist devices) but with verizon/sprint it requires a phone call or trip to the local store. If FIC enables CDMA but doesn't work out agreements with the carriers, the carrier will likely refuse to activate the phone for their network. -- Brad ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: 3G? What about CDMA?
CDMA is being phased out: end of April in Australia, began a few years ago in the US. Carriers are switching to GSM. Pack more subscribers on a cell, even if they need more cells. GSM allowed Europe to unify their mobile network before the US even realized that they had to do it for interoperability and other reasons (more secure, etc...). I could travel through Europe and not loose a call from England to Germany through Holland, France more than 10 years ago. I could not even imagine that in the US at the time. On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 6:26 AM, Tilman Baumann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Kevin Dean wrote: > > With CDMA, you will not be able to use your phone on their network > > > unless > > > they say ok. > > > > > > > This is also true of GSM. It would be stupid to adopt ANY technology > > that didn't give you the ability to reject who could use it. If the > > carrier didn't have ultimate control then they'd not be able to boot > > non-paying people from using their network. It is not the technology > > but the policy of the carriers that allows this movement. > > > > With CDMA it is (or at least was) common policy. > No so with GSM. Any provider which would do this would go out of business > soon. > It screws Roaming and it screws the open phone marked. (Open marked not > open phone ;) ) > > > Just my 2 Eurocent > Tilman > > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: 3G? What about CDMA?
Kevin Dean wrote: With CDMA, you will not be able to use your phone on their network unless they say ok. This is also true of GSM. It would be stupid to adopt ANY technology that didn't give you the ability to reject who could use it. If the carrier didn't have ultimate control then they'd not be able to boot non-paying people from using their network. It is not the technology but the policy of the carriers that allows this movement. With CDMA it is (or at least was) common policy. No so with GSM. Any provider which would do this would go out of business soon. It screws Roaming and it screws the open phone marked. (Open marked not open phone ;) ) Just my 2 Eurocent Tilman ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: 3G? What about CDMA?
On Wed, 16 Apr 2008, Kevin Dean wrote: On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 4:52 PM, Ben Burdette <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Steven ** wrote: This means I can't use my old CDMA sprint phone on my new verizon account. I'm assuming that it's POSSIBLE (how often it happens is irrelevant) to make a device that COULD work on both Sprint or Verizon if their policies permitted it using CDMA technology. If CDMA isn't compatible with itself, it's not a single standard. Quick technical note - it's certainly possible and probably happens fairly often. CDMA phones are locked much the same way GSM phones are, with a "master code". If you frustrate tech. support enough at Sprint or Verizon they'll eventually give you that code and then you can move it between carriers (this happened quite a bit when the treo 700p was released as a sprint-only device, for instance). As far as the aims of the Openmoko project, I don't see how CDMA conflicts with that. I thought one of the aims of Openmoko was to show people the benefits of opensource, mobile computing. It seems odd to give people choices over everything but the service provider. You can choose any service provider you want - as long as they are on GSM. I believe I read just a few days ago "You can have any color you want, as long as it's black." Personally I'm a CDMA user (Sprint) because their data is faster and a *lot* cheaper. I don't hold out any hope of a CDMA Neo, though, for the reasons Kevin keeps mentioning - with all its flaws (personal opinion, of course) GSM has a strong political push behind it and CDMA does not, so you can use GSM almost anywhere in the world making it the perfect target market. The switch to 4G (by which I mean WiMax, WiBro and LTE) may change that but I'm not holding my breath. In the meantime I have a prepaid SIM from AT&T and I'm counting the days until the neo's advantages make me switch permanently. - Michael ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: 3G? What about CDMA?
On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 4:52 PM, Ben Burdette <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Steven ** wrote: > > > I don't see how GSM is much less "closed" of a network protocol than > > CDMA (the interchangeable SIM cards being the big difference). The > > GSM chip is the most locked down hardware on the Neo. A CDMA chip > > would be no different. > > > > > Actually the situation here IS very different, because of that > interchangability. With a GSM phone, its the SIM that allows you on the > network. You can (theoretically at least), go down to the T-Mobile store > and get their bottom-of-the-line 20$ phone, then take it home and put the > SIM into your neo, with T-Mobile being none the wiser. I have a SIM from my old T-Mobile phone in my Neo. They DO know it's not that phone, but they chose to let me on the network anyway. On the flip side, the iPhone is a GSM phone but (without hacking) it's unable to be used off the network it was locked to. Even off "big ticket" items like the iPhone, a lot of GSM phones are shipped with firmware that prevents it from being used on other networks. In the USA cell carriers subsidize the purchase of the handset and use the firmware to incentivize purchasing phones with more features (like SMS or internet, which they charge for if you utilize). This situation, IMO, is irrelevant because it's essentially saying "Any compatible technology used on a provider that lets you use your phone there works" which is true with both CDMA and GSM. It's the larger potential pool of devices that ARE compatible, and the larger pool of providers that DO allow it. Assuming all carriers had similar policies, and CDMA was the most popular technology, I'd not say the technology was closed. It is the mobile ecosystem, viewed worldwide, that would mean less choice on a CDMA device, not the CDMA technology itself. > With CDMA, you will not be able to use your phone on their network unless > they say ok. This is also true of GSM. It would be stupid to adopt ANY technology that didn't give you the ability to reject who could use it. If the carrier didn't have ultimate control then they'd not be able to boot non-paying people from using their network. It is not the technology but the policy of the carriers that allows this movement. > This means I can't use my old CDMA sprint phone on my new > verizon account. I'm assuming that it's POSSIBLE (how often it happens is irrelevant) to make a device that COULD work on both Sprint or Verizon if their policies permitted it using CDMA technology. If CDMA isn't compatible with itself, it's not a single standard. > If I switch back to sprint, my verizon phone won't work > anymore. If openmoko was CDMA but sprint and verizon decide they don't like > the openness of the openmoko phones, you're SOL. If T-Mobile in the USA decided not to allow non-Tmobile phones on their network you'd be JUST as SOL. This is a policy issue and not a technology one. > GSM gives the users choice > as to what phone they want to run, and takes that choice away from the > carrier. > > > > > As far as the aims of the Openmoko project, I don't see how CDMA > > conflicts with that. I thought one of the aims of Openmoko was to > > show people the benefits of opensource, mobile computing. It seems > > odd to give people choices over everything but the service provider. > > > > > You can choose any service provider you want - as long as they are on GSM. > > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: 3G? What about CDMA?
Steven ** wrote: I don't see how GSM is much less "closed" of a network protocol than CDMA (the interchangeable SIM cards being the big difference). The GSM chip is the most locked down hardware on the Neo. A CDMA chip would be no different. Actually the situation here IS very different, because of that interchangability. With a GSM phone, its the SIM that allows you on the network. You can (theoretically at least), go down to the T-Mobile store and get their bottom-of-the-line 20$ phone, then take it home and put the SIM into your neo, with T-Mobile being none the wiser. With CDMA, you will not be able to use your phone on their network unless they say ok. This means I can't use my old CDMA sprint phone on my new verizon account. If I switch back to sprint, my verizon phone won't work anymore. If openmoko was CDMA but sprint and verizon decide they don't like the openness of the openmoko phones, you're SOL. GSM gives the users choice as to what phone they want to run, and takes that choice away from the carrier. As far as the aims of the Openmoko project, I don't see how CDMA conflicts with that. I thought one of the aims of Openmoko was to show people the benefits of opensource, mobile computing. It seems odd to give people choices over everything but the service provider. You can choose any service provider you want - as long as they are on GSM. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: 3G? What about CDMA?
On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 2:50 PM, Steven ** <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I don't see how GSM is much less "closed" of a network protocol than > CDMA (the interchangeable SIM cards being the big difference). Stop thinking in terms of the technology itself and think in terms of a userbase. In the majority of the world, a CDMA phone would be a restriction on the number of carriers you can use and where. In the US, it's Sprint and Verizon (and even that is only true short term). There are some Japanese carriers that are also CDMA. Everywhere else uses GSM. GSM is in every European market, and there are a LOT of potential customers in Europe. Openmoko is about openness, not just about "open source". Even the model being used to sell the devices tries to break away from the "Go to your carrier's store and buy the device to use on their network" paradigm. Buy your phone, powered by Free Software, and pick any of the carriers who use the most common cellular technology on the planet. > The > GSM chip is the most locked down hardware on the Neo. A CDMA chip > would be no different. Even if that doesn't work for you, it's a dumb investment to NOT aim for the largest market possible. By making a CDMA-based phone, Openmoko only captures a small percentage of the total number of worldwide cellular users. As a fledgling brand it isn't feasible to make BOTH a CDMA and a GSM based product in a debut offering - the expense is too high with the unknown to big a variable. > > As far as the aims of the Openmoko project, I don't see how CDMA > conflicts with that. I thought one of the aims of Openmoko was to > show people the benefits of opensource, mobile computing. It seems > odd to give people choices over everything but the service provider. Lack of choice is the #1 complaint Verizon got from their customers. "Verizon Exclusive" phones that they couldn't use off the Verizon network. Phones they owned from their other carrier that couldn't be used on Verizon. Because of this market pressure, Verizon is switching their networks to GSM so that they can seamlessly compete with GSM providers (which is the majority of the market). It's in the interest of Verizon AND the customers to standardize on a single set of technology and GSM is that standard. It is possible that by the time Verizon's GSM network is up (2009, from what I heard) the Freerunner will be "mass market". In that case, the only network that it won't work on is Sprint's. You can debate over who is exactly at fault in that situation; all the handset makers worldwide or Sprint. > > -Steven > > > > On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 1:14 PM, Kevin Dean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > GSM is essentially an international standard. With some exceptions, > > CDMA isn't used much. > > > > Furthermore, even in the USA, Verizon will be deploying a GSM network > > "soon" (next few years). So a Freerunner WILL work on Verizon in the > > near future. > > > > Don't count on a CDMA device, using a relatively "closed" network > > doesn't meet the aims of the Openmoko project. > > > > > > > > On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 2:02 PM, Steven ** > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > I talk with friends and co-workers about OpenMoko and the Neo > > > Freerunner all the time. Inevitably, they say something like "That's > > > cool. Will it work with Verizon?" or "That's cool. Will it work with > > > Sprint?". And of course, the answer is no... I don't think any of my > > > friends are with at&t (even though they're supposedly the largest > > > wireless carrier in the US) or any other GSM provider. They're all on > > > Sprint or Verizon. I myself was originally on Verizon and switched to > > > at&t solely for the Neo. But most people aren't willing to do that > > > (and most are locked into contracts with a $250+ early termination > > > fee). > > > > > > So, have you considered making a CDMA version of the Neo? I think > > > that'd about double your sales in the US. > > > > > > -Steven > > > > > > ___ > > > Openmoko community mailing list > > > community@lists.openmoko.org > > > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > > > > > > > ___ > > Openmoko community mailing list > > community@lists.openmoko.org > > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > > > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: 3G? What about CDMA?
I don't see how GSM is much less "closed" of a network protocol than CDMA (the interchangeable SIM cards being the big difference). The GSM chip is the most locked down hardware on the Neo. A CDMA chip would be no different. As far as the aims of the Openmoko project, I don't see how CDMA conflicts with that. I thought one of the aims of Openmoko was to show people the benefits of opensource, mobile computing. It seems odd to give people choices over everything but the service provider. -Steven On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 1:14 PM, Kevin Dean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > GSM is essentially an international standard. With some exceptions, > CDMA isn't used much. > > Furthermore, even in the USA, Verizon will be deploying a GSM network > "soon" (next few years). So a Freerunner WILL work on Verizon in the > near future. > > Don't count on a CDMA device, using a relatively "closed" network > doesn't meet the aims of the Openmoko project. > > > > On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 2:02 PM, Steven ** > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I talk with friends and co-workers about OpenMoko and the Neo > > Freerunner all the time. Inevitably, they say something like "That's > > cool. Will it work with Verizon?" or "That's cool. Will it work with > > Sprint?". And of course, the answer is no... I don't think any of my > > friends are with at&t (even though they're supposedly the largest > > wireless carrier in the US) or any other GSM provider. They're all on > > Sprint or Verizon. I myself was originally on Verizon and switched to > > at&t solely for the Neo. But most people aren't willing to do that > > (and most are locked into contracts with a $250+ early termination > > fee). > > > > So, have you considered making a CDMA version of the Neo? I think > > that'd about double your sales in the US. > > > > -Steven > > > > ___ > > Openmoko community mailing list > > community@lists.openmoko.org > > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > > > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: 3G? What about CDMA?
GSM is essentially an international standard. With some exceptions, CDMA isn't used much. Furthermore, even in the USA, Verizon will be deploying a GSM network "soon" (next few years). So a Freerunner WILL work on Verizon in the near future. Don't count on a CDMA device, using a relatively "closed" network doesn't meet the aims of the Openmoko project. On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 2:02 PM, Steven ** <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I talk with friends and co-workers about OpenMoko and the Neo > Freerunner all the time. Inevitably, they say something like "That's > cool. Will it work with Verizon?" or "That's cool. Will it work with > Sprint?". And of course, the answer is no... I don't think any of my > friends are with at&t (even though they're supposedly the largest > wireless carrier in the US) or any other GSM provider. They're all on > Sprint or Verizon. I myself was originally on Verizon and switched to > at&t solely for the Neo. But most people aren't willing to do that > (and most are locked into contracts with a $250+ early termination > fee). > > So, have you considered making a CDMA version of the Neo? I think > that'd about double your sales in the US. > > -Steven > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
