Re: Text input, OpenMoko and Tengo
On Sat, 2007-01-20 at 13:28 -0500, Simon wrote: > Has anyone else posted this to the mailing list? > > http://www.strout.net/info/ideas/hexinput.html Heya, could you all channel your thoughts and ideas onto the wiki about this: http://www.linuxtogo.org/gowiki/OpenMoko/Software Jon > > > Jon Phillips > > San Francisco, CA > USA PH 510.499.0894 > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://www.rejon.org > > MSN, AIM, Yahoo Chat: kidproto > Jabber Chat: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > IRC: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Text input, OpenMoko and Tengo
>"Patent-Pending" is a warning. It basically means this: "If you do >anything even remotely similar to what we've claimed in our patent >application we will sue you back to the stone age once our patent is >granted." Not at all. It simply means that a patent has been applied for, but hasn't yet been granted. Anyone can apply to patent anything; applying isn't a guarantee of having one granted, by any stretch of the imagination. One is obligated to defend one's patents, however: having applied for a patent, one is more or less obligated to advise others of that fact, hence the "patent pending" notice. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Text input, OpenMoko and Tengo
On 1/21/07, Ulrik Rasmussen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: So, since it's just pending, that means that an implementation of something that works in the same way would only be legal to distribute on "borrowed time"? "Patent-Pending" is a warning. It basically means this: "If you do anything even remotely similar to what we've claimed in our patent application we will sue you back to the stone age once our patent is granted." -- Daniel Bartholomew ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Text input, OpenMoko and Tengo
On Sunday 21 January 2007 21:18, Richi Plana wrote: > Is that even such a big difference that a patent can be granted? What if > we implemented something similar with the same variations as above? For > instance, why stop at grouping keys in horizontal groups. People could > potentially tap on the wrong key in a vertical direction (though not as > likely as on the horizontal one). How about taking the actual letter key > in the QWERTY virtual keyboard that the user tapped and make that the > primary candidate for the desired key, but taking the surrounding key in > the 8 directions surrounding it as potential candidates, as well. That might work! After all, the most annoying thing with these types of input is when you get the one of the characters wrong, as has to go back and correct it. I just think this is a hard balance, as it will require a quite advanced dictionary to intelligently pick the right words. There will obviously be a lot more words to pick, if you take all these letters as possible candidates. It should probably look at the sentence as a whole, to be able to determine the right word. > People who are interested in this should form a subgroup concentrating > mainly on the IME (input method editor) to be used on OpenMoko. I have created an entry on the wiki for ideas: http://www.linuxtogo.org/gowiki/OpenMoko/Ideas/TextInput -- Ulrik ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Text input, OpenMoko and Tengo
I've the same sentiments as Ulrik. The Tengo technology seems just like a variation of existing technologies from companies like Tegic (now AOL) T9 and Zi Corporation's eZiText with the following differences: 1) A virtual keypad instead of a physical one (Zi eZiTap-like) 2) Six key groups instead of 8 or 9 3) Arrangement of keys (QWERTY as opposed to alphabetical) Is that even such a big difference that a patent can be granted? What if we implemented something similar with the same variations as above? For instance, why stop at grouping keys in horizontal groups. People could potentially tap on the wrong key in a vertical direction (though not as likely as on the horizontal one). How about taking the actual letter key in the QWERTY virtual keyboard that the user tapped and make that the primary candidate for the desired key, but taking the surrounding key in the 8 directions surrounding it as potential candidates, as well. For instance, if the user tapped on "E", the input system could also offer candidates where the assumed key pressed for that position in the word construct was "W", "S", "D", "F" and "R". Also, depending on the size of the "keys" and the accuracy of the multi-touch screen, you could be more partial to the key closest to the point in space that the user tapped on and using as secondary keys that are next closest to it (geometry-intensive but it does seem like a variation that's not patented). Or how about switching to a Dvorak arrangement and making the home keys extra large in size for easy hitting? There are a lot of options for the input system that we could play around with and develop. As for the backend for potential word candidates, we can draw on the [ai]spell dictionary for different languages, the phone's address/phone book, previously entered URLs, Google's most popular search words/phrases, or a list of the most previously typed words (with heuristics on the most commonly used), etc. People who are interested in this should form a subgroup concentrating mainly on the IME (input method editor) to be used on OpenMoko. > > On 20 Jan 2007, at 2:48 pm, Ulrik Rasmussen wrote: > > > That is patented? But how? It's basically a rearrangement of the > > > buttons used > > > on a regular cell phone. > > > Unless there's some feature that I've missed, then I can't see how > > > this could > > > be innovative enough to deserve a patent. > > > > > > -Ulrik > > > > > > On Saturday 20 January 2007 13:44, Renaissance Man wrote: > > >> Would I be right in assuming we won't see anything like Tengo-type > > >> free software text input on OpenMoko, being that it's patented? > > >> > > >> http://www.tengo.net/ > > >> > > >> I'm also assuming that getting Tengo to add support for OpenMoko is a > > >> trivial matter. But would be nice to have a freedom software version. > > >> > > >> Renaissance Man -- Richi Plana ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Text input, OpenMoko and Tengo
I'm not that much into patent laws, but how long can it take for a patent to get accepted/rejected? With good lawyers and enough cash, I've heard of companies pulling this out to like 10 years On 1/21/07, Ulrik Rasmussen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: So, since it's just pending, that means that an implementation of something that works in the same way would only be legal to distribute on "borrowed time"? I'm not that much into patent laws, but how long can it take for a patent to get accepted/rejected? Since a method like this seems very effective for all kinds of touch screen based devices, it would kinda cripple the industry if one company was sitting on such a fundamental piece of functionality. What if they chose _not_ to support the OpenMoko? On Saturday 20 January 2007 19:55, Renaissance Man wrote: > Well, actually I was wrong, it's not (yet) patented. Their website > says patent pending: > http://www.tengo.net/tengo_intellectualproperty.html > > I don't know anything about patent law. I've just heard I a lot of > good reports about this way of doing text input. > > Renaissance Man > > On 20 Jan 2007, at 2:48 pm, Ulrik Rasmussen wrote: > > That is patented? But how? It's basically a rearrangement of the > > buttons used > > on a regular cell phone. > > Unless there's some feature that I've missed, then I can't see how > > this could > > be innovative enough to deserve a patent. > > > > -Ulrik > > > > On Saturday 20 January 2007 13:44, Renaissance Man wrote: > >> Would I be right in assuming we won't see anything like Tengo-type > >> free software text input on OpenMoko, being that it's patented? > >> > >> http://www.tengo.net/ > >> > >> I'm also assuming that getting Tengo to add support for OpenMoko is a > >> trivial matter. But would be nice to have a freedom software version. > >> > >> Renaissance Man > > ___ > OpenMoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Jeff O|||O ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Text input, OpenMoko and Tengo
So, since it's just pending, that means that an implementation of something that works in the same way would only be legal to distribute on "borrowed time"? I'm not that much into patent laws, but how long can it take for a patent to get accepted/rejected? Since a method like this seems very effective for all kinds of touch screen based devices, it would kinda cripple the industry if one company was sitting on such a fundamental piece of functionality. What if they chose _not_ to support the OpenMoko? On Saturday 20 January 2007 19:55, Renaissance Man wrote: > Well, actually I was wrong, it's not (yet) patented. Their website > says patent pending: > http://www.tengo.net/tengo_intellectualproperty.html > > I don't know anything about patent law. I've just heard I a lot of > good reports about this way of doing text input. > > Renaissance Man > > On 20 Jan 2007, at 2:48 pm, Ulrik Rasmussen wrote: > > That is patented? But how? It's basically a rearrangement of the > > buttons used > > on a regular cell phone. > > Unless there's some feature that I've missed, then I can't see how > > this could > > be innovative enough to deserve a patent. > > > > -Ulrik > > > > On Saturday 20 January 2007 13:44, Renaissance Man wrote: > >> Would I be right in assuming we won't see anything like Tengo-type > >> free software text input on OpenMoko, being that it's patented? > >> > >> http://www.tengo.net/ > >> > >> I'm also assuming that getting Tengo to add support for OpenMoko is a > >> trivial matter. But would be nice to have a freedom software version. > >> > >> Renaissance Man > > ___ > OpenMoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Text input, OpenMoko and Tengo
If I were the guy who holds the patent (and yes, something like this is patentable) on "T9" input, I'd sue. This "TenGO" thing clearly strikes me as something that "a practitioner skilled in the art" could come up with, given a knowledge of T9... (I see no problem with a legitimate innovation--like T9's predictive use of statistically likely words to determine that you meant "covert" when you pressed 268378--being granted a patent, and I see no problem with the holder of the patent defending it.) On 1/20/07 6:48 AM, "Ulrik Rasmussen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > That is patented? But how? It's basically a rearrangement of the buttons used > on a regular cell phone. > Unless there's some feature that I've missed, then I can't see how this could > be innovative enough to deserve a patent. > > -Ulrik > > On Saturday 20 January 2007 13:44, Renaissance Man wrote: >> Would I be right in assuming we won't see anything like Tengo-type >> free software text input on OpenMoko, being that it's patented? >> >> http://www.tengo.net/ >> >> I'm also assuming that getting Tengo to add support for OpenMoko is a >> trivial matter. But would be nice to have a freedom software version. >> >> Renaissance Man > > ___ > OpenMoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Text input, OpenMoko and Tengo
la, 2007-01-20 kello 15:48 +0100, Ulrik Rasmussen kirjoitti: > That is patented? But how? It's basically a rearrangement of the buttons used > on a regular cell phone. Nowadays just about anything can be patented... But anyway, I fully expect that many applications developed for the OpenMoko will infringe patents in some jurisdictions, simply because of the prevalence of bad patents. That said, if it's an especially useful input system, which I haven't determined for myself, somebody unencumbered could implement it regardless of whether the patent (currently pending, as somebody said) is granted or not. It would just stop the program from being adopted as any kind of OpenMoko "standard" - nobody wants FIC in trouble over Moko, especially FIC themselves. :] -- Mikko Rauhala - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.iki.fi/mjr/> Transhumanist - WTA member - http://www.transhumanism.org/> Singularitarian - SIAI supporter - http://www.singinst.org/> ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Text input, OpenMoko and Tengo
Well, actually I was wrong, it's not (yet) patented. Their website says patent pending: http://www.tengo.net/tengo_intellectualproperty.html I don't know anything about patent law. I've just heard I a lot of good reports about this way of doing text input. Renaissance Man On 20 Jan 2007, at 2:48 pm, Ulrik Rasmussen wrote: That is patented? But how? It's basically a rearrangement of the buttons used on a regular cell phone. Unless there's some feature that I've missed, then I can't see how this could be innovative enough to deserve a patent. -Ulrik On Saturday 20 January 2007 13:44, Renaissance Man wrote: Would I be right in assuming we won't see anything like Tengo-type free software text input on OpenMoko, being that it's patented? http://www.tengo.net/ I'm also assuming that getting Tengo to add support for OpenMoko is a trivial matter. But would be nice to have a freedom software version. Renaissance Man ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Text input, OpenMoko and Tengo
Has anyone else posted this to the mailing list? http://www.strout.net/info/ideas/hexinput.html ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Text input, OpenMoko and Tengo
That is patented? But how? It's basically a rearrangement of the buttons used on a regular cell phone. Unless there's some feature that I've missed, then I can't see how this could be innovative enough to deserve a patent. -Ulrik On Saturday 20 January 2007 13:44, Renaissance Man wrote: > Would I be right in assuming we won't see anything like Tengo-type > free software text input on OpenMoko, being that it's patented? > > http://www.tengo.net/ > > I'm also assuming that getting Tengo to add support for OpenMoko is a > trivial matter. But would be nice to have a freedom software version. > > Renaissance Man ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Text input, OpenMoko and Tengo
Would I be right in assuming we won't see anything like Tengo-type free software text input on OpenMoko, being that it's patented? http://www.tengo.net/ I'm also assuming that getting Tengo to add support for OpenMoko is a trivial matter. But would be nice to have a freedom software version. Renaissance Man ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
