Re: What will be in GTA03?
On Tue, 2008-08-12 at 11:45 +0200, Michele Renda wrote: > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA1 > > Hendrik Strydom wrote: > > My wish list: > > 3G, or at least UMTS > > 3g != UMTS ? (I thing you wanted to say EDGE :) No. Simplistically seen from an Australian perspective UMTS allows download speeds up to 384Kb, and 3G allows speeds with a current upper limit of about 7MB and a current infrastructure limitation of about 14MB, depending on the provider. I have never seen a connection at this speed, but download speed in the 1MB to 3MB range is not uncommon. As far as I can establish EDGE is only used by the local '3' service provider, but they seem to use non-standard SIMS, which do not work in all phones, so it would be an unattractive option locally. More importantly data on UMTS/2.5G/3G is charged per Kb, whereas GPRS is normally charged in terms of time spent, which makes it very unattractive. Vodafone for instance offers 5GB of mobile data for $49 (AU) per month, but happily charges $1 per minute for GPRS, where it is hard to beat 5Kb download speeds. To further complicate matters our providers cover quad band between them. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: What will be in GTA03?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hendrik Strydom wrote: > My wish list: > 3G, or at least UMTS 3g != UMTS ? (I thing you wanted to say EDGE :) -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFIoVvFSIAU/I6SkT0RAoivAJ9wZbqpf4CZzYm/FCTJxw2t5nKYYQCfdHne /DlxaDc0Tq/GLon2j04u5Qo= =jlZc -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: What will be in GTA03?
My wish list: 3G, or at least UMTS On Sat, 2008-08-09 at 15:34 +0100, Monkey D. Luffy wrote: > (no "reply" so far... so a little bump) > > > This is more or less my wish list... So what will be in? > > 1) camera (decent one, 3MP or more) > Will it be possible to record movies with sound? What resolution? > > 2) buttons on the damn thing :p > SNES and GBx all the way :) > Or at the very least, sell the GTA03 with an optional control pad: > http://www.icontrolpad.com/ But try to make it as small as possible > (maybe the control pad overlapping the case) so it doesn't get t big. > > 3) holder for a small plastic stylus. With an optinal string > connecting both, so that if you drop it by chance it doesn't get lost > forever in some crack to hell. > If possible, keep this in mind if selling the icontrolpad thingy (so > the stylus doesn't get trapped there). > > 4) GPS > Will I be able to keep maps updated for free? > Will it be possible to make use of google maps, in the sense of having > the indications on how to get from A to B? > > 5) USB connector (USB 2.x), in order to connect the phone to the computer > > 6) WiFi > > 7) accelerometers > > 8) bluetooth > > 9) a cute chinese or japanese girl ^_^ > Well, at least their phone numbers :p > > > I heard about xv and glamo and what else... What I need to know is: > Will I be able to watch videos or play games (with sound on both) at > 640x480 resolution? > > > What will the final price be? In Europe? > > And when will it be ready? > You drive people crazy waiting for a final product with decent > features (e.g. camera) > I need a *working* new phone... yesterday :( > (must... resist... iphone...) > > Maybe all this info should be on your wiki and wikipedia? > http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GTA > > > Best wishes for everything! > > > PLEASE CC ME in your reply. > > > PS: suggestion for next phones: Dual-Sim > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: camera for freerunner (was Re: What will be in GTA03?)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Somebody in the thread at some point said: | Tim Schmidt wrote: |> On Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 9:37 AM, Daniel Benoy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: |>> I don't think people will be willing to pay an extra $200 just to get a camera in there. |> Please do some research before making baseless comments. Camera |> modules do not cost $200. More like $10. Less in quantity. See |> here: |> |> http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=8668 | | ah, very nice. ok resolution, and decent docs too | | did i read somewhere that there is an unused camera interface somewhere | in the neo, or have i imagined that? failing that, it talks i2c, so | connecting via that should be possible? | | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/I2C | | i tried looking on the wiki for info on the camera interface, but the | search function is not great Glamo and CPU both have camera interfaces that are either unused or re-used for other stuff. I2C connection to camera module is only for settings like "brightness", bulk pixel data comes down a parallel bus that you have nothing to connect to. Best bet for this if you are interested is the same story for all other peripherals -- USB host mode on the USB socket, nice and neat, power is provided... detachable... - -Andy -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkihSl0ACgkQOjLpvpq7dMqw5QCfT0HhDXyBAeBoXbTcrHEt8Ko8 Nv4An34JEHaKcVPluuDva4RxIk21jmU1 =+8/U -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
camera for freerunner (was Re: What will be in GTA03?)
Tim Schmidt wrote: > On Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 9:37 AM, Daniel Benoy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> I don't think people will be willing to pay an extra $200 just to get a >> camera in there. > > Please do some research before making baseless comments. Camera > modules do not cost $200. More like $10. Less in quantity. See > here: > > http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=8668 ah, very nice. ok resolution, and decent docs too did i read somewhere that there is an unused camera interface somewhere in the neo, or have i imagined that? failing that, it talks i2c, so connecting via that should be possible? http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/I2C i tried looking on the wiki for info on the camera interface, but the search function is not great ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: What will be in GTA03?
Most of the interesting things you can do with a built-in camera are not practical if you need to actually find and plug in a usb camera attachment every time you need it. Not to mention how ugly they look. A built-in camera is at the top of my wish-list for future GTAXX products. There are so many other things you can do with a camera than general pictures of people and places. -bar code reading -facial recognition -Machine vision -3D environment mapping, (with multiple neos networked) -OCR And they are just a few. I very much doubt adding a camera would cost the $200 you estimated, i expect it would be more like $50 or less (assuming standard cellphone lens quality). But, to be honest, i think getting GTA02 stable as an everyday-developer-phone is the most important thing right now. There isn't much point adding more and more features if the current phone/features can't be used reliably. Ben. Daniel Benoy wrote: > While we're on the topic of hardware wishlist stuff, I'd like to throw in my > two cents ^.^ > > - Hot swapable SD card slot > - External wifi antenna connector (Mmmm war driving) > - Official openmoko car charger (That gives me 1A without having to futz > around) > > Also, I'd like the camera idea to be an optional extra at most. > > The buttons idea isn't so bad too, even though I really like the clean > minimalist look the freerunner has right now. > > I've responded inline to the comments of the original poster below. > > On Saturday 09 August 2008 10:34:32 Monkey D. Luffy wrote: > >> 1) camera (decent one, 3MP or more) >> Will it be possible to record movies with sound? What resolution? >> > > Since this phone will not be offered with any contracts (at least at first, > depending on how successful it gets), I don't think people will be willing to > pay an extra $200 just to get a camera in there. It's possible for a USB > camera/webcam to be attached to the phone when it's in host mode. If you > want to see that, you're more than welcome to go create it yourself. The CAD > files are freely available for the phone, so you could probably readily > create a snugly fitting clip-on camera that replaces the back plate, or > something. (Most people don't have te resources for this, but that's fine. > If there's enough consumer demand, it will eventually happen) > > >> 2) buttons on the damn thing :p >> SNES and GBx all the way :) >> Or at the very least, sell the GTA03 with an optional control pad: >> http://www.icontrolpad.com/ But try to make it as small as possible >> (maybe the control pad overlapping the case) so it doesn't get t big. >> > > You can already plug USB gamepads into the unit. Making one that actually > connects to the unit so you don't have to awkwardly balance the phone on your > lap or something should also be easy enough for an aftermarket manufacturer, > but for now you're stuck with duct tape :p > > >> 3) holder for a small plastic stylus. With an optinal string >> connecting both, so that if you drop it by chance it doesn't get lost >> forever in some crack to hell. >> If possible, keep this in mind if selling the icontrolpad thingy (so >> the stylus doesn't get trapped there). >> > > Seems like nitpicking, but I guess it's a valid desire. > > >> 4) GPS >> Will I be able to keep maps updated for free? >> Will it be possible to make use of google maps, in the sense of having >> the indications on how to get from A to B? >> > > This is a software issue, not a hardware one. There's a GPS in the GTA02 and > if the right software ever gets created then it will be able to do what you > describe. > > >> 5) USB connector (USB 2.x), in order to connect the phone to the computer >> > > ? That's on the side. > > >> 6) WiFi >> > > Already in there. > > >> 7) accelerometers >> > > Yep. Got that. > > >> 8) bluetooth >> > > Has that too. > > >> 9) a cute chinese or japanese girl ^_^ >> Well, at least their phone numbers :p >> > > I would like a cute japanese girl's phone number too, but I think that's up > to the sim card manufacturer, or the openmoko software side. > It would be preferable if the cute japanese girl was really into open source > too. I don't know if that's feasible. > > >> I heard about xv and glamo and what else... What I need to know is: >> Will I be able to watch videos or play games (with sound on both) at >> 640x480 resolution? >> > > I think we should be able to do this with the hardware that's out there now. > Anyone achieved this? > > > > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openm
Re: What will be in GTA03?
On Mon, 2008-08-11 at 15:15 +0200, Joachim Steiger wrote: > Pritam, Ghanghas (IE10) wrote: > > Hi All > > > > I had put this wish list once but no one considered that I guess. Is it > > that stupid? At least give your review guys. > > > > OMAP3530 > > http://focus.ti.com/docs/prod/folders/print/omap3530.html > nice chip.. basically.. but see this thread: > http://www.gp32x.com/board/index.php?showtopic=42144 > and try to find any specs or documentation about the included powerVR > SGX530... have fun... its closed. > in short: the whole 2d/3d accel in that chip would currently be useless > for us. > > openmoko took opensource serious till now, pushing boundaries further > where we could. > we want debuggable architectures. means no binary drivers on the app > cpu > for anything for sure. not in userspace, and for sure not in the > kernel. I've got a beagle board with debian running on it now, i'll test the video output when im back to germany. Judgeing what i've seen at LinuxTag, the 2D performance is great even on 1280x720 (they had no accelerated X running). So using the OMAP3530 and leaving the 3D stuff unused seems to be an option. Jan ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: What will be in GTA03?
On Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 9:37 AM, Daniel Benoy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I don't think people will be willing to pay an extra $200 just to get a > camera in there. Please do some research before making baseless comments. Camera modules do not cost $200. More like $10. Less in quantity. See here: http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=8668 Further, their useful for far more than just taking photos. They make great barcode readers - even for 2D barcodes like UPS uses. GPS + camera = geotagged photos. Clever developers could even use one to supplement input from accelerometers. --tim ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: What will be in GTA03?
On Mon, 11 Aug 2008 09:37:31 -0400 Daniel Benoy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > While we're on the topic of hardware wishlist stuff, I'd like to > throw in my two cents ^.^ --- > - External wifi antenna connector (Mmmm war driving) Isn't it already there? Search for a thread called 'External WiFi Antenna' on the community list. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: What will be in GTA03?
While we're on the topic of hardware wishlist stuff, I'd like to throw in my two cents ^.^ - Hot swapable SD card slot - External wifi antenna connector (Mmmm war driving) - Official openmoko car charger (That gives me 1A without having to futz around) Also, I'd like the camera idea to be an optional extra at most. The buttons idea isn't so bad too, even though I really like the clean minimalist look the freerunner has right now. I've responded inline to the comments of the original poster below. On Saturday 09 August 2008 10:34:32 Monkey D. Luffy wrote: > 1) camera (decent one, 3MP or more) > Will it be possible to record movies with sound? What resolution? Since this phone will not be offered with any contracts (at least at first, depending on how successful it gets), I don't think people will be willing to pay an extra $200 just to get a camera in there. It's possible for a USB camera/webcam to be attached to the phone when it's in host mode. If you want to see that, you're more than welcome to go create it yourself. The CAD files are freely available for the phone, so you could probably readily create a snugly fitting clip-on camera that replaces the back plate, or something. (Most people don't have te resources for this, but that's fine. If there's enough consumer demand, it will eventually happen) > 2) buttons on the damn thing :p > SNES and GBx all the way :) > Or at the very least, sell the GTA03 with an optional control pad: > http://www.icontrolpad.com/ But try to make it as small as possible > (maybe the control pad overlapping the case) so it doesn't get t big. You can already plug USB gamepads into the unit. Making one that actually connects to the unit so you don't have to awkwardly balance the phone on your lap or something should also be easy enough for an aftermarket manufacturer, but for now you're stuck with duct tape :p > 3) holder for a small plastic stylus. With an optinal string > connecting both, so that if you drop it by chance it doesn't get lost > forever in some crack to hell. > If possible, keep this in mind if selling the icontrolpad thingy (so > the stylus doesn't get trapped there). Seems like nitpicking, but I guess it's a valid desire. > 4) GPS > Will I be able to keep maps updated for free? > Will it be possible to make use of google maps, in the sense of having > the indications on how to get from A to B? This is a software issue, not a hardware one. There's a GPS in the GTA02 and if the right software ever gets created then it will be able to do what you describe. > 5) USB connector (USB 2.x), in order to connect the phone to the computer ? That's on the side. > 6) WiFi Already in there. > 7) accelerometers Yep. Got that. > 8) bluetooth Has that too. > 9) a cute chinese or japanese girl ^_^ > Well, at least their phone numbers :p I would like a cute japanese girl's phone number too, but I think that's up to the sim card manufacturer, or the openmoko software side. It would be preferable if the cute japanese girl was really into open source too. I don't know if that's feasible. > I heard about xv and glamo and what else... What I need to know is: > Will I be able to watch videos or play games (with sound on both) at > 640x480 resolution? I think we should be able to do this with the hardware that's out there now. Anyone achieved this? -- Daniel Benoy http://daniel.benoy.name signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: What will be in GTA03?
Pritam, Ghanghas (IE10) wrote: > Hi All > > I had put this wish list once but no one considered that I guess. Is it > that stupid? At least give your review guys. > > OMAP3530 > http://focus.ti.com/docs/prod/folders/print/omap3530.html > I see lot of benefits from this shift >Camera interface >Two USB one of them OTG >On chip 2D/3D accelerator -- I didn't get much info about glamo > 3362 still TI looks better >Host of other goodies that you can look in the page >And I don't see drivers to be a very big problem, seems like we > will get another community working simultaneously > http://beagleboard.org/ and TI is in mood of cooperating in this > venture. nice chip.. basically.. but see this thread: http://www.gp32x.com/board/index.php?showtopic=42144 and try to find any specs or documentation about the included powerVR SGX530... have fun... its closed. thus also pandora will probably not have open drivers. search for statements about that. i haven't found anything that states about how open that machine will be at all. in short: the whole 2d/3d accel in that chip would currently be useless for us. openmoko took opensource serious till now, pushing boundaries further where we could. we want debuggable architectures. means no binary drivers on the app cpu for anything for sure. not in userspace, and for sure not in the kernel. this was nagging many people on gta01 with gps before we got rid of that with gta02. hopefully we will never make that error again. -- Joachim Steiger Openmoko Central Services ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: What will be in GTA03?
Hi All I had put this wish list once but no one considered that I guess. Is it that stupid? At least give your review guys. OMAP3530 http://focus.ti.com/docs/prod/folders/print/omap3530.html I see lot of benefits from this shift Camera interface Two USB one of them OTG On chip 2D/3D accelerator -- I didn't get much info about glamo 3362 still TI looks better Host of other goodies that you can look in the page And I don't see drivers to be a very big problem, seems like we will get another community working simultaneously http://beagleboard.org/ and TI is in mood of cooperating in this venture. Camera - atleast 2mp -- A camera which can support addon lenses and filter (as suggested by someone in wiki wishlist) will be awesome Bigger screen 3.5 or 4" EDGE please if not 3G USB 2.0 OTG that will automatically come with OMAP3530 A smaller stylus - this stylus is good but not for every one please provide support in the casing for a smaller stylus as well Rectangular casing -- the lower portion I think can be easily flattened and upper portion can also be done with some effort though. May be a recess in PCB for GPS antenna than putting it on top of it 3.5mm jack -- my current phone has one Better battery may be some 2000 or 2300mAh will be cool even if it makes it a little fatter. A device like this must have good battery backup The kind of framework the project is going towards I would like more RAM may be 512MB LPDDR Last thing I want is expansion option(this one also is there in wiki wishlist). My idea is to use any connector that internally uses USB. The device can be given to the consumer with a dummy module fitted that just gives the mini-usb But possibilities are limitless -- removable camera -- user may buy the type of camera he wants from several modules -- extra SD card stack -- may be extra battery -- special purpose radios -- mini projector -- projection keyboard -- HDD -- finger print scanner -- smartcard reader -- Wi-Max or any other future tech -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Harald Koenig Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2008 3:33 AM To: List for Openmoko community discussion Subject: Re: What will be in GTA03? On Aug 09, Monkey D. Luffy wrote: > 1) camera (decent one, 3MP or more) > Will it be possible to record movies with sound? What resolution? if there will be a camera, please make the hardware so modular that it's possible to remove the camera without big hassle like cutting PCBs etc. (and include a small plastic thing to close the hole left by the removed camera). there are environments where one is not allowed to use nor carry a camera, and I'd like to keep and use my OM there too Harald -- "I hope to die ___ _ before I *have* to use Microsoft Word.", 0--,|/OOO\ Donald E. Knuth, 02-Oct-2001 in Tuebingen.<_/ / /OOO\ \ \/OOO\ \ O|// \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/ Harald Koenig // / \\ \ [EMAIL PROTECTED] ^ ^ ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: What will be in GTA03?
On Aug 09, Monkey D. Luffy wrote: > 1) camera (decent one, 3MP or more) > Will it be possible to record movies with sound? What resolution? if there will be a camera, please make the hardware so modular that it's possible to remove the camera without big hassle like cutting PCBs etc. (and include a small plastic thing to close the hole left by the removed camera). there are environments where one is not allowed to use nor carry a camera, and I'd like to keep and use my OM there too Harald -- "I hope to die ___ _ before I *have* to use Microsoft Word.", 0--,|/OOO\ Donald E. Knuth, 02-Oct-2001 in Tuebingen.<_/ / /OOO\ \ \/OOO\ \ O|// \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/ Harald Koenig // / \\ \ [EMAIL PROTECTED] ^ ^ ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: What will be in GTA03?
> 4) My questions were pretty straightforward, mosty Y/N answers. A > knowing user could answer them in 2-5 minutes if he wanted to. Nothing has been decided on the future hardware revisions, so none of your questions can be answered. -- Steven Kurylo ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: What will be in GTA03?
On Sat, Aug 9, 2008 at 4:13 PM, arne anka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> (no "reply" so far... so a little bump) > > there were a lot! Not replying to what I asked. The comments were mostly offtopic. > and besides, you did obviously never check, what _gta02_ has already -- 50% > of you "wishlist" are irrelevant! Just because gta02 has them doesn't mean that gta03 will have then as well. AFAIK it is subject to changes... and some things have already. > >> PLEASE CC ME in your reply. > > if you don't care to read the list (or anything else, like news) why do you > spam it? 1) Sorry if you perceived my post as spam. I am interested in the project and thus find it important to have an answer to those questions. However, I can't follow it as intensely as you do. 2) I did read several threads, but I still didn't got a clear picture of the situation. 3) The ml has lots of activity. It makes sense to make that information centralized instead of scatered (and outdated) across dozens of messages. That was why I also suggested an update in the wiki http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GTA Or is it better for every person who may be interested in openmoko devices to spend hours reading and searching, and in the end have no concrete answer? 4) My questions were pretty straightforward, mosty Y/N answers. A knowing user could answer them in 2-5 minutes if he wanted to. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: What will be in GTA03?
> (no "reply" so far... so a little bump) there were a lot! and besides, you did obviously never check, what _gta02_ has already -- 50% of you "wishlist" are irrelevant! > PLEASE CC ME in your reply. if you don't care to read the list (or anything else, like news) why do you spam it? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
What will be in GTA03?
(no "reply" so far... so a little bump) This is more or less my wish list... So what will be in? 1) camera (decent one, 3MP or more) Will it be possible to record movies with sound? What resolution? 2) buttons on the damn thing :p SNES and GBx all the way :) Or at the very least, sell the GTA03 with an optional control pad: http://www.icontrolpad.com/ But try to make it as small as possible (maybe the control pad overlapping the case) so it doesn't get t big. 3) holder for a small plastic stylus. With an optinal string connecting both, so that if you drop it by chance it doesn't get lost forever in some crack to hell. If possible, keep this in mind if selling the icontrolpad thingy (so the stylus doesn't get trapped there). 4) GPS Will I be able to keep maps updated for free? Will it be possible to make use of google maps, in the sense of having the indications on how to get from A to B? 5) USB connector (USB 2.x), in order to connect the phone to the computer 6) WiFi 7) accelerometers 8) bluetooth 9) a cute chinese or japanese girl ^_^ Well, at least their phone numbers :p I heard about xv and glamo and what else... What I need to know is: Will I be able to watch videos or play games (with sound on both) at 640x480 resolution? What will the final price be? In Europe? And when will it be ready? You drive people crazy waiting for a final product with decent features (e.g. camera) I need a *working* new phone... yesterday :( (must... resist... iphone...) Maybe all this info should be on your wiki and wikipedia? http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GTA Best wishes for everything! PLEASE CC ME in your reply. PS: suggestion for next phones: Dual-Sim ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
