Re: ancient hardware?
On Monday 07 July 2008 05:02, Ajit Natarajan wrote: Hello, ... So, I don't understand the comments on ancient parts. What have we compromised on by choosing these parts? Hardware choice will always be a compromise. In this case it's largly between performance, price, size and energy usage. There will always be something 'better', a faster CPU (even though will use more energy), a bigger battery (even though it does increase size) etc... Ofcourse FIC could be building a custum phone tailored to our individual needs, but that would be kind of (well, hugely) expensive. At the current price it looks like this is a good combination of components, and I do like the current price :) AVee ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: ancient hardware?
So, I don't understand the comments on ancient parts. What have we compromised on by choosing these parts? There was a previous discussion on this subject that boils down to the latest components needed to be bought in bulk, i.e. 500,000 peices, FIC couldn't justify buying so much so went with lesser quantaties of components companies wanted to get rid of, also FIC wanted open specs, but companies don't want rival companies knowing their products specs so they'll only open the specs on older chips . sorry, cant' find the mail in question, it is buried in the insanely long qvga vs vga/yummy cpugpu combo threads ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: ancient hardware? - Software matters
I never had a phone for the last decade. Mostly out of protest against the ridiculous data rates and prices on GSM. And because all phones sucked. I had sworn me, when UMTS would comes out and the prices are ok, i will buy a phone. UMTS came, the prices where ok but the phones still sucked. And i did not feel i would miss much. And most important of all, i completely lost hope for all mobile phone software. There where no iterative improvements. Features came ant went with no regular pattern. Phones did not get better with time, they just stagnated. They did not even managed to put all features in which they had in earlier models. And bad software did never get fixed. The only way to overcome bad software was to by a new phone. It never felt right for me to give them money for theyr bad service. And all of them completely missed the point about having internet on a mobile device. The franticly searched for the killer app for UMTS but could not find any. But the killer app for phones was clearly IP (open communication) and a open software stack. Opensource was clearly the answer for all that. Then things happended. Openmoko and the iPhone came. The iPhone started a big fire under the fat and lazy ass of phone manufacturers. They are reminded that innovation is something that sells phones and makes customers happy. But i'm sure those who will not burn to death will not manage to stand up for the next time. Changes will happen slow. Its after all the mobile phones business. :) And there was Openmoko. There was never any doubt for me that this will be the right answer to a good and healthy software evolution and constant improvement for mobile phone software. So i'm here. I broke my oath to never buy a GSM only phone (Neo 1973). I was not able to make stable phone calls for month with my rather 1990ish new phone. But i was happy and i still am. Sure. The hardware could be better. But this is something the industry managed to do all the time. We need to make software a important part of phone development. This is where the industry (and subsequently the customer) needs help. This is where a bunch of hackers can make a big difference. I'm sure Openmoko started something important. The vastly successful way of software evolution and development which opensource provides will greatly improve all phones to come... I'm happy that Fic gives us this stepping stone to change the world. I gladly ignore some bad teeth of this horse. ;) Ajit Natarajan wrote: Hello, I've seen a number of remarks on this list that the hardware in the FR is ancient and this is the price of openness and freedom. I did a quick search for some of the parts: The Samsung 2442 SoC seems to date back to 2005. I got this from the revision history in the user manual [1]. The Antaris 4 GPS chip dates back to 2006. This is the from the 0635 datasheet revision history [2]. The Calypso GSM chip dates back to 2000. This is from the leaked hardware definition manual revision history [3]. The Accton 3236 WiFi chip dates back to 2006. This is from the ``2006.12'' at the end of the datasheet [4]. I haven't looked at the other chips. From the above, the GSM chip looks ancient. However, the other chips don't seem that old. And some recent devices are using these parts as well. For example, the RoverPC C6 introduced in December 2007 uses the Samsung 2442B at 300MHz. So, I don't understand the comments on ancient parts. What have we compromised on by choosing these parts? Thanks. Ajit [1] http://210.118.57.197/Products/Semiconductor/MobileSoC/ApplicationProcessor/ARM9Series/SC32442/um_s3c2442b_rev12.pdf [2] http://www.u-blox.com/products/Data_Sheets/ATR0630_35_SglChip_Data_Sheet(GPS.G4-X-06009).pdf [3] http://cryptome.org/ti-calypso2.pdf [4] http://www.accton.com/products/Datasheet/WM3236A.AQ.pdf ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Drucken Sie diese Mail bitte nur auf Recyclingpapier aus. Please print this mail only on recycled paper. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: ancient hardware?
On 7 Jul 2008, at 04:02, Ajit Natarajan wrote: ... The Calypso GSM chip dates back to 2000. This is from the leaked hardware definition manual revision history [3]. ... I haven't looked at the other chips. From the above, the GSM chip looks ancient. ... So, I don't understand the comments on ancient parts. What have we compromised on by choosing these parts? It seems to me that the Freerunner lacks only a couple of features of other more modern phones. Some people want a camera, but *shrugs* that doesn't bother me. I assume the decision to omit this was not related to the openness of the hardware, probably because the Neo was based on a previous design (which FIC undertook for someone else who subsequently abandoned their project?). I don't know why the Glamo was included. You don't mention this in your commentary. (And, again, this doesn't bother me, as I want to run email calendaring apps on my phone, not video). Basically the big compromise was 3G. IMO it's the only thing that justifies the ancient claims. Stroller. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: ancient hardware? - Software matters
thank you so much! You cannot believe how hard people at Openmoko work and getting a mail like yours rewards many of us for 12+ hours working days. It's a long way, lots of hardware and software bugs, we know it. I like your 'bad teeth' analogy :-) Wolfgang On Jul 7, 2008, at 6:57 PM, Tilman Baumann wrote: I never had a phone for the last decade. Mostly out of protest against the ridiculous data rates and prices on GSM. And because all phones sucked. I had sworn me, when UMTS would comes out and the prices are ok, i will buy a phone. UMTS came, the prices where ok but the phones still sucked. And i did not feel i would miss much. And most important of all, i completely lost hope for all mobile phone software. There where no iterative improvements. Features came ant went with no regular pattern. Phones did not get better with time, they just stagnated. They did not even managed to put all features in which they had in earlier models. And bad software did never get fixed. The only way to overcome bad software was to by a new phone. It never felt right for me to give them money for theyr bad service. And all of them completely missed the point about having internet on a mobile device. The franticly searched for the killer app for UMTS but could not find any. But the killer app for phones was clearly IP (open communication) and a open software stack. Opensource was clearly the answer for all that. Then things happended. Openmoko and the iPhone came. The iPhone started a big fire under the fat and lazy ass of phone manufacturers. They are reminded that innovation is something that sells phones and makes customers happy. But i'm sure those who will not burn to death will not manage to stand up for the next time. Changes will happen slow. Its after all the mobile phones business. :) And there was Openmoko. There was never any doubt for me that this will be the right answer to a good and healthy software evolution and constant improvement for mobile phone software. So i'm here. I broke my oath to never buy a GSM only phone (Neo 1973). I was not able to make stable phone calls for month with my rather 1990ish new phone. But i was happy and i still am. Sure. The hardware could be better. But this is something the industry managed to do all the time. We need to make software a important part of phone development. This is where the industry (and subsequently the customer) needs help. This is where a bunch of hackers can make a big difference. I'm sure Openmoko started something important. The vastly successful way of software evolution and development which opensource provides will greatly improve all phones to come... I'm happy that Fic gives us this stepping stone to change the world. I gladly ignore some bad teeth of this horse. ;) Ajit Natarajan wrote: Hello, I've seen a number of remarks on this list that the hardware in the FR is ancient and this is the price of openness and freedom. I did a quick search for some of the parts: The Samsung 2442 SoC seems to date back to 2005. I got this from the revision history in the user manual [1]. The Antaris 4 GPS chip dates back to 2006. This is the from the 0635 datasheet revision history [2]. The Calypso GSM chip dates back to 2000. This is from the leaked hardware definition manual revision history [3]. The Accton 3236 WiFi chip dates back to 2006. This is from the ``2006.12'' at the end of the datasheet [4]. I haven't looked at the other chips. From the above, the GSM chip looks ancient. However, the other chips don't seem that old. And some recent devices are using these parts as well. For example, the RoverPC C6 introduced in December 2007 uses the Samsung 2442B at 300MHz. So, I don't understand the comments on ancient parts. What have we compromised on by choosing these parts? Thanks. Ajit [1] http://210.118.57.197/Products/Semiconductor/MobileSoC/ApplicationProcessor/ARM9Series/SC32442/um_s3c2442b_rev12.pdf [2] http://www.u-blox.com/products/Data_Sheets/ATR0630_35_SglChip_Data_Sheet(GPS.G4-X-06009).pdf [3] http://cryptome.org/ti-calypso2.pdf [4] http://www.accton.com/products/Datasheet/WM3236A.AQ.pdf ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Drucken Sie diese Mail bitte nur auf Recyclingpapier aus. Please print this mail only on recycled paper. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: ancient hardware? - Software matters
Tilman Yeah, I feel exactly the same way as Wolfgang. Actually I've forward this email to many of our internal people just to make absolute sure they read it. Your comments seriously made my day. -Sean Wolfgang Spraul wrote: thank you so much! You cannot believe how hard people at Openmoko work and getting a mail like yours rewards many of us for 12+ hours working days. It's a long way, lots of hardware and software bugs, we know it. I like your 'bad teeth' analogy :-) Wolfgang On Jul 7, 2008, at 6:57 PM, Tilman Baumann wrote: I never had a phone for the last decade. Mostly out of protest against the ridiculous data rates and prices on GSM. And because all phones sucked. I had sworn me, when UMTS would comes out and the prices are ok, i will buy a phone. UMTS came, the prices where ok but the phones still sucked. And i did not feel i would miss much. And most important of all, i completely lost hope for all mobile phone software. There where no iterative improvements. Features came ant went with no regular pattern. Phones did not get better with time, they just stagnated. They did not even managed to put all features in which they had in earlier models. And bad software did never get fixed. The only way to overcome bad software was to by a new phone. It never felt right for me to give them money for theyr bad service. And all of them completely missed the point about having internet on a mobile device. The franticly searched for the killer app for UMTS but could not find any. But the killer app for phones was clearly IP (open communication) and a open software stack. Opensource was clearly the answer for all that. Then things happended. Openmoko and the iPhone came. The iPhone started a big fire under the fat and lazy ass of phone manufacturers. They are reminded that innovation is something that sells phones and makes customers happy. But i'm sure those who will not burn to death will not manage to stand up for the next time. Changes will happen slow. Its after all the mobile phones business. :) And there was Openmoko. There was never any doubt for me that this will be the right answer to a good and healthy software evolution and constant improvement for mobile phone software. So i'm here. I broke my oath to never buy a GSM only phone (Neo 1973). I was not able to make stable phone calls for month with my rather 1990ish new phone. But i was happy and i still am. Sure. The hardware could be better. But this is something the industry managed to do all the time. We need to make software a important part of phone development. This is where the industry (and subsequently the customer) needs help. This is where a bunch of hackers can make a big difference. I'm sure Openmoko started something important. The vastly successful way of software evolution and development which opensource provides will greatly improve all phones to come... I'm happy that Fic gives us this stepping stone to change the world. I gladly ignore some bad teeth of this horse. ;) Ajit Natarajan wrote: Hello, I've seen a number of remarks on this list that the hardware in the FR is ancient and this is the price of openness and freedom. I did a quick search for some of the parts: The Samsung 2442 SoC seems to date back to 2005. I got this from the revision history in the user manual [1]. The Antaris 4 GPS chip dates back to 2006. This is the from the 0635 datasheet revision history [2]. The Calypso GSM chip dates back to 2000. This is from the leaked hardware definition manual revision history [3]. The Accton 3236 WiFi chip dates back to 2006. This is from the ``2006.12'' at the end of the datasheet [4]. I haven't looked at the other chips. From the above, the GSM chip looks ancient. However, the other chips don't seem that old. And some recent devices are using these parts as well. For example, the RoverPC C6 introduced in December 2007 uses the Samsung 2442B at 300MHz. So, I don't understand the comments on ancient parts. What have we compromised on by choosing these parts? Thanks. Ajit [1] http://210.118.57.197/Products/Semiconductor/MobileSoC/ApplicationProcessor/ARM9Series/SC32442/um_s3c2442b_rev12.pdf [2] http://www.u-blox.com/products/Data_Sheets/ATR0630_35_SglChip_Data_Sheet(GPS.G4-X-06009).pdf [3] http://cryptome.org/ti-calypso2.pdf [4] http://www.accton.com/products/Datasheet/WM3236A.AQ.pdf ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Drucken Sie diese Mail bitte nur auf Recyclingpapier aus. Please print this mail only on recycled paper. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Not just a phone (was: Re: ancient hardware?)
Peter, your email below is the one I've been trying to write for the past few months. Like you, what got me excited about this project was NOT the possibility of building better cellphone applications, but rather the possibility of creating radically new uses for a general purpose, location aware, connected handheld computer. I'd like a phone that syncs seamlessly with Thunderbird and the rest of my Linux workstyle. But what really turns me on is the potential uses that I can't even imagine yet. It is that innovation that I hope to see come out of this community, and I hope that in some way I can help make it happen. Michael Peter Harrison wrote: I wouldn't focus on the age of the hardware at all. The real question is whether this will be a hardware platform that others will be able to build innovation on top of. With phone companies making available only applications which earn them money you have not really seen the same kind of innovation that we saw in the PC space in the early 90's. It will no doubt be a success in its own right, but what about other ideas... * IP phone over Wifi and integrate with Asterisk IP phone systems - changes to GSM outside the office. * In car navigation system. * Low cost taxi fare system. * Courier driver system that minimizes route time and allows dispatch to communicate. * Robotic platform and robotic control * Hospitals - used by nurses and doctors for prescriptions and observations as low cost tablet. The Neo could open up hundreds of vertical market opportunities that the Telco's currently have no interest in tapping. If you think that the Neo is simply a different kind of iPhone you are missing the point. Many applications may use GPRS, but may not even implement phone functionality. Some may not even use GSM. To me the attraction is that it has been designed from the ground up to run Linux, and there is a dedicated team working on the frameworks that will make delivery of these applications possible. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Not just a phone (was: Re: ancient hardware?)
I'm hoping to use it not just for in-car navigation, but also data readout. I intend to rig it to display voltage and current in my electric car. I'd like to see someone do that with an iPhone :-P -Steven On Mon, Jul 7, 2008 at 12:29 PM, Michael Shiloh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Peter, your email below is the one I've been trying to write for the past few months. Like you, what got me excited about this project was NOT the possibility of building better cellphone applications, but rather the possibility of creating radically new uses for a general purpose, location aware, connected handheld computer. I'd like a phone that syncs seamlessly with Thunderbird and the rest of my Linux workstyle. But what really turns me on is the potential uses that I can't even imagine yet. It is that innovation that I hope to see come out of this community, and I hope that in some way I can help make it happen. Michael Peter Harrison wrote: I wouldn't focus on the age of the hardware at all. The real question is whether this will be a hardware platform that others will be able to build innovation on top of. With phone companies making available only applications which earn them money you have not really seen the same kind of innovation that we saw in the PC space in the early 90's. It will no doubt be a success in its own right, but what about other ideas... * IP phone over Wifi and integrate with Asterisk IP phone systems - changes to GSM outside the office. * In car navigation system. * Low cost taxi fare system. * Courier driver system that minimizes route time and allows dispatch to communicate. * Robotic platform and robotic control * Hospitals - used by nurses and doctors for prescriptions and observations as low cost tablet. The Neo could open up hundreds of vertical market opportunities that the Telco's currently have no interest in tapping. If you think that the Neo is simply a different kind of iPhone you are missing the point. Many applications may use GPRS, but may not even implement phone functionality. Some may not even use GSM. To me the attraction is that it has been designed from the ground up to run Linux, and there is a dedicated team working on the frameworks that will make delivery of these applications possible. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
ancient hardware?
Hello, I've seen a number of remarks on this list that the hardware in the FR is ancient and this is the price of openness and freedom. I did a quick search for some of the parts: The Samsung 2442 SoC seems to date back to 2005. I got this from the revision history in the user manual [1]. The Antaris 4 GPS chip dates back to 2006. This is the from the 0635 datasheet revision history [2]. The Calypso GSM chip dates back to 2000. This is from the leaked hardware definition manual revision history [3]. The Accton 3236 WiFi chip dates back to 2006. This is from the ``2006.12'' at the end of the datasheet [4]. I haven't looked at the other chips. From the above, the GSM chip looks ancient. However, the other chips don't seem that old. And some recent devices are using these parts as well. For example, the RoverPC C6 introduced in December 2007 uses the Samsung 2442B at 300MHz. So, I don't understand the comments on ancient parts. What have we compromised on by choosing these parts? Thanks. Ajit [1] http://210.118.57.197/Products/Semiconductor/MobileSoC/ApplicationProcessor/ARM9Series/SC32442/um_s3c2442b_rev12.pdf [2] http://www.u-blox.com/products/Data_Sheets/ATR0630_35_SglChip_Data_Sheet(GPS.G4-X-06009).pdf [3] http://cryptome.org/ti-calypso2.pdf [4] http://www.accton.com/products/Datasheet/WM3236A.AQ.pdf ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: ancient hardware?
I wouldn't focus on the age of the hardware at all. The real question is whether this will be a hardware platform that others will be able to build innovation on top of. With phone companies making available only applications which earn them money you have not really seen the same kind of innovation that we saw in the PC space in the early 90's. It will no doubt be a success in its own right, but what about other ideas... * IP phone over Wifi and integrate with Asterisk IP phone systems - changes to GSM outside the office. * In car navigation system. * Low cost taxi fare system. * Courier driver system that minimizes route time and allows dispatch to communicate. * Robotic platform and robotic control * Hospitals - used by nurses and doctors for prescriptions and observations as low cost tablet. The Neo could open up hundreds of vertical market opportunities that the Telco's currently have no interest in tapping. If you think that the Neo is simply a different kind of iPhone you are missing the point. Many applications may use GPRS, but may not even implement phone functionality. Some may not even use GSM. To me the attraction is that it has been designed from the ground up to run Linux, and there is a dedicated team working on the frameworks that will make delivery of these applications possible. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
