Re: project customers
On Saturday 17 April 2010 11:49 PM, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra wrote: http://www.google.pt/search?q=olpc+tablet It's would be a real killer if it has a reflexive screen like XO-1 and XO-1.5 * low energy requirements when backlight is off * visible even with direct sunlight * color! (well, I don't know if reflexive mode can support it, in current XO's it can't Seen the NotionInk Adam. Just google it. Specially check out videos. Regards, Vibhav Sharma ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: project customers
Em 19-04-2010 13:49, Vibhav Sharma escreveu: On Saturday 17 April 2010 11:49 PM, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra wrote: http://www.google.pt/search?q=olpc+tablet It's would be a real killer if it has a reflexive screen like XO-1 and XO-1.5 * low energy requirements when backlight is off * visible even with direct sunlight * color! (well, I don't know if reflexive mode can support it, in current XO's it can't Seen the NotionInk Adam. Just google it. Specially check out videos. Seemed interesting until I read it uses NVidia Tigra. Not anymore. Rui ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: project customers
Al Johnson escribió: On Sunday 18 April 2010, Juergen Schinker wrote: won't fit on the bike, but I would have his little brother for that. :) Ha why should it not fit on a Bike? Show me how you safely mount the little brother on your bike! I still haven't found a usable solution. I made a mount using polymorph (low-melting plastic similar to nylon) while others have made them by bending sheet plastics. There are photos in the wiki. The safe mount is the easy part. The hard part is the shade to make it readable in the sun. A transreflective screen would really have helped with this. http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Biking http://andre.web-yard.de/blog/2008/08/03/neo-freerunner-rocks-hard-rides-free/ http://blog.printf.net/articles/2008/08/11/an-openmoko-bike-ride cheers! Kosa -Un mundo mejor es posible - ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: project customers
won't fit on the bike, but I would have his little brother for that. :) Ha why should it not fit on a Bike? Show me how you safely mount the little brother on your bike! I still haven't found a usable solution. Juergen ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: project customers
On Sunday 18 April 2010, Juergen Schinker wrote: won't fit on the bike, but I would have his little brother for that. :) Ha why should it not fit on a Bike? Show me how you safely mount the little brother on your bike! I still haven't found a usable solution. I made a mount using polymorph (low-melting plastic similar to nylon) while others have made them by bending sheet plastics. There are photos in the wiki. The safe mount is the easy part. The hard part is the shade to make it readable in the sun. A transreflective screen would really have helped with this. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: project customers
Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) escribió: On Sat, 17 Apr 2010 02:18:45 +0200 Bernd Prünster bernd.pruens...@gmail.com said: ever heard of the touchbook?! I had not, but it looks great. I'll do some reading 'couse it looks very much like the device I was talking about. 299 or 399 + 29 for gps usb dongle + 80 of 3g seems a reasonable price to me. or joojoo... or one of the 1894 mee too ipad clones coming out (varying from arm based to x86 based). there is no room for a freerunner core based pad... - pushing that many pixels means more grunt. the gta02 already couldnt handle what it had. by a large margin. just buy one of these me-too pads and fidddle with it. hell if tangogps is the killer app - does an open os matter? Come on Raster, you know open os matters a lot. I didn't say tangogps is the only good app, I just said a bigger screen would be great for gps apps, as well as for lots of other apps. And I think there is a lot of space for a Freerunner open pad based if we talk about cutomers if you fix the already known bugs. Museums, cars, schools, etc, etc, etc. This is about project customers, right? Kosa - Un mundo mejor es posible - ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: project customers
-[ Sat, Apr 17, 2010 at 12:46:28AM -0300, Werner Almesberger ] I'd worry a lot more about GUI and applications than about any bit of hardware. Agreed, and iPad imitators are probably going to discover once again that software is a very important component that can not be copied as easily as the hardware. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: project customers
Em 16-04-2010 23:02, Kosa escreveu: I ain't no expert on this, but since iPad is being a succesful mobil device, we could give a chance for a BIGGER Freerunner. Of course iPad won't sell as many pices as the iPhone has, but 400k seems good for a start. There's a huge market for the big touchscreen devices. There is a project for such a pad at the OLPC. Joining the effort seems like the wisest choice, to me. http://www.google.pt/search?q=olpc+tablet It's would be a real killer if it has a reflexive screen like XO-1 and XO-1.5 * low energy requirements when backlight is off * visible even with direct sunlight * color! (well, I don't know if reflexive mode can support it, in current XO's it can't) Add to it new Comix/Evince/etc... interfaces oriented to touch screens, and you'll have a huge success if it's cheap, so featureful and open. Rui ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: project customers
I ain't no expert on this, but since iPad is being a succesful mobil device, we could give a chance for a BIGGER Freerunner. Of course iPad won't sell as many pices as the iPhone has, but 400k seems good for a start. There's a huge market for the big touchscreen devices. What about trying to do some changes here and there to put a bigger screen (and a much bigger battery) on it. Most common linux apps would fit on that. Debian works great on the FR right know, and a bigger screen might be a killer spec 'couse almost every app would run with no changes needed. As I said, I ain't no expert, but you take glamo off, fix #1024, get a bigger screen and battery and leave everithing else as it is and you have a tremendous chance of succes. I would just add stereo speakers :p as in Neo 1973 AFAIK tangogps is THE killer app on the Freerunner, and it would be great to have a bigger screen for a gps device. It could even fit as a co-pilot for the car, as gps, phone, music, movies news player. It won't fit on the bike, but I would have his little brother for that. :) We might face the 3g problem, but AFAIR just one of the 3 iPad models includes 3g, so it is not a most. Not even for GTA03 nor GTA02-Core I guess a bigger device is easier to build BTW. Just a thought. Kosa - Un mundo mejor es posible - Werner Almesberger escribió: Carsten Haitzler wrote: if it's hard to communicate - you don't have a sales point. Yup, that's why I wouldn't belabour that angle for now. Whether and when the time for selling on open software alone will come depends on how constrained people feel with the non-open choices, and how many indirect benefits they get. For now, I'll be happy with the niche of project customers who need to tweak the hardware or who already understand why they cannot afford a closed system. That said, such a phone wouldn't have to be free from appeal to the mass market. It should definitely be as attractive as possible, but within reason. sure - but it seems those project customers want to feed off a stable supply line Stability is indeed crucial. I hope to be able to compensate with flexibility what we lack in sheer momentum. E.g., if you get, say, Motorola to make a design for you, and then Motorola decides to shut down or sell off that business unit, then you're left with pretty much nothing, no matter what your contracts say. With an open design, no mattern what happens with the makers of it, you still have the design - down to the last detail - and most of the information needed to produce it. You may still fail to recover from a breakdown in your supply, but your chances are vastly better. Also, since the supply is likely to be spread over multiple companies and individuals (who, in the Open world, enjoy a great deal of mobility) catastrophic failures that wipe out everything are less likely. Now, it remains to be seen whether prospective project customers will agree with these arguments or whether they prefer to stick with the traditional view and try to partner with companies that are too big to fail. In terms of numbers, I think cost levels out pretty well already at only a few kunits. If you're competing on the last 5%, you're already in the wrong game. i know that to you, or to many freedom advocates all this fancy eyecandy, sexy design, high end components etc. seems all irrelevant Heh, yet here I am, still using my sleek little Samsung X-830 as my daily phone, while keeping the ugly pucks in the lab :) The thing with bleeding edge components is that they cost you a lot (in various ways) at very little gain. Yes, you may get that extra push for today's fashionable effect, but by the time you hit the market, fashion will have changed. Better find your own style that doesn't come from the manuals of the Gigahertz war :-) - Werner ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: project customers
Kosa wrote: I ain't no expert on this, but since iPad is being a succesful mobil device, we could give a chance for a BIGGER Freerunner. The joy of the Open Design Hardware concept - anyone can design their own mutant :) There's a huge market for the big touchscreen devices. Let's see how the Newt^H^H^H^HiPad goes. Wouldn't be the first device to end up in the gadget graveyard after the novelty effect wears off. I guess a bigger device is easier to build BTW. Having a larger case gives you more freedom, yes. Designing it as an offspring of a phone would make it attractive to use much of the same technology, though. After all, you've already debugged it, know where to get the parts, etc., so there's probably little to optimize from the engineering point of view. A larger screen may be a problem, though, if it also comes with a larger resolution. The larger the resolution, the more pixels the poor CPU has to push and the more memory bus bandwidth is eaten up by refreshing the screen. Of course, 640x480 would still look quite tolerable at, say, 6 (133 dpi, like the original Eee PC), so you may be able to avoid this issue - and be able to use cheap screens. - Werner ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: project customers
ever heard of the touchbook?! ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: project customers
On Sat, 17 Apr 2010 02:18:45 +0200 Bernd Prünster bernd.pruens...@gmail.com said: ever heard of the touchbook?! or joojoo... or one of the 1894 mee too ipad clones coming out (varying from arm based to x86 based). there is no room for a freerunner core based pad... - pushing that many pixels means more grunt. the gta02 already couldnt handle what it had. by a large margin. just buy one of these me-too pads and fidddle with it. hell if tangogps is the killer app - does an open os matter? as long as you can compile it and install it (toouchbook is there already for that - and it's open. not the schematics - though if you look carefully its actually a slightly modified beagleboard - so design is open actually), and os is open. the other me-too's on x86 will be pretty much just as open as any other netbook (give or take) - and yes. we know. imgtec, sgx, closed gpu. that's the case everywhere. no news there and no solution to is unless you design your own gpu... good luck. :)) -- - Codito, ergo sum - I code, therefore I am -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: project customers
Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote: On Sat, 17 Apr 2010 02:18:45 +0200 Bernd Prünster bernd.pruens...@gmail.com said: ever heard of the touchbook?! or joojoo... or one of the 1894 mee too ipad clones coming out (varying from arm based to x86 based). there is no room for a freerunner core based pad... - pushing that many pixels means more grunt. the gta02 already couldnt handle what it had. by a large margin. just buy one of these me-too pads and fidddle with it. hell if tangogps is the killer app - does an open os matter? as long as you can compile it and install it (toouchbook is there already for that - and it's open. not the schematics - though if you look carefully its actually a slightly modified beagleboard - so design is open actually), and os is open. the other me-too's on x86 will be pretty much just as open as any other netbook (give or take) - and yes. we know. imgtec, sgx, closed gpu. that's the case everywhere. no news there and no solution to is unless you design your own gpu... good luck. :)) +1 the beagleboard (omap3550) has quite a nice amount of horsepower, it can to 720p, has nice dsp which is quite well supported, and the folks at ai and the community around the touchbook are playing around to get accelerated composing working thanks to opengl ES an thanks to the wokr nokia did on the n900 (omap3550 again if i'm right). apart from that casual computing, littel surfing a little office work and thanks to powerVR you can also watch videos quite nicely thanks to mplayer hardware accel, but the system still hat beta quality, so i can just hope they iron the remaining bugs out in time. i'm not paid to write that, i just think this might be an interesting device for freerunner users... please correct me if i wrote too much junk - it is 4,40 am here ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: project customers
Carsten Haitzler wrote: no news there and no solution to is unless you design your own gpu... good luck. :)) I'd worry a lot more about GUI and applications than about any bit of hardware. Pads in one form or another have been around for a long time. So far, they weren't particularly successful. The promise of the pad is basically that there are many tasks, either new but useful (and beyond what a smartphone could do) or traditionally requiring a laptop, that can be formulated such that all the interaction they require are a few taps and drags. Maybe the iPad will be able to do this. Maybe not. We'll see. - Werner ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: project customers
Carsten Haitzler wrote: if it's hard to communicate - you don't have a sales point. Yup, that's why I wouldn't belabour that angle for now. Whether and when the time for selling on open software alone will come depends on how constrained people feel with the non-open choices, and how many indirect benefits they get. For now, I'll be happy with the niche of project customers who need to tweak the hardware or who already understand why they cannot afford a closed system. That said, such a phone wouldn't have to be free from appeal to the mass market. It should definitely be as attractive as possible, but within reason. sure - but it seems those project customers want to feed off a stable supply line Stability is indeed crucial. I hope to be able to compensate with flexibility what we lack in sheer momentum. E.g., if you get, say, Motorola to make a design for you, and then Motorola decides to shut down or sell off that business unit, then you're left with pretty much nothing, no matter what your contracts say. With an open design, no mattern what happens with the makers of it, you still have the design - down to the last detail - and most of the information needed to produce it. You may still fail to recover from a breakdown in your supply, but your chances are vastly better. Also, since the supply is likely to be spread over multiple companies and individuals (who, in the Open world, enjoy a great deal of mobility) catastrophic failures that wipe out everything are less likely. Now, it remains to be seen whether prospective project customers will agree with these arguments or whether they prefer to stick with the traditional view and try to partner with companies that are too big to fail. In terms of numbers, I think cost levels out pretty well already at only a few kunits. If you're competing on the last 5%, you're already in the wrong game. i know that to you, or to many freedom advocates all this fancy eyecandy, sexy design, high end components etc. seems all irrelevant Heh, yet here I am, still using my sleek little Samsung X-830 as my daily phone, while keeping the ugly pucks in the lab :) The thing with bleeding edge components is that they cost you a lot (in various ways) at very little gain. Yes, you may get that extra push for today's fashionable effect, but by the time you hit the market, fashion will have changed. Better find your own style that doesn't come from the manuals of the Gigahertz war :-) - Werner ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: project customers
On 09 Apr 2010 12:37:00 +0200 openm...@pulster.de (Christoph Pulster) said: Perhaps I should clarify that I don't mean to make fun of your situation. We're all in the same boat here. No problem Werner, all your optinions and comments are very welcome. As you already said, companiess who built a solution based on the Openmoko need a reliable product AND a reliable company behind. The product, Freerunner, had a lot severe bugs (GPS not working, GSM buzzing, #1024 suspend problems). Also after fixing this with new revisions and third partys (Dr.Nikolaus), the product is not ready to compete in the market. Very poor battery life to mention just one serious no-go. The company Openmoko Inc. missed to give customers a reliable support and long-term concept. The open idea stopped behind the doors, no info about stock availability, spare parts supply etc. CEO Sean is an visionary, not a sales guy. Steve Mosher's part of the game was not evident. (BTW, what is the status of Steve according Qi ?) I had a project asking for 2500 units as a first order only. Openmoko Inc. failed to provide this customer a infrastructure. this is the problem with phones. the big boys are beginng to get it - but for them 2500 units is what they do for a verification run - and then throw out. they don't get up out of bed in the morning for a request for 2500 units. :) they will want at least 2 or 3 zeros added to that to even give you the time of day. openmoko never made it to be big enough to continue - and ye once you get big enough, the kind of thing you talk about no longer make business sense (as you are busy shopping around to telcos who will order millions of devices). catch 22 :-S I can confirm sold units worldwide is 20.000 maximum. which is a very poor result and can not give a living for anyone. The game openmoko was only possible with the financial injection of FIC. the funds are gone, the Wikireader is an anachronistic product and will not give any cashback. Not to misunderstand, the game opensource is just starting. if you need to, remember Openmoko as a early hero. Christoph ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- - Codito, ergo sum - I code, therefore I am -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: project customers
Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: In business strategy planning it is quite common to separate e.g. consumer, project, service, solution business types and markets because they have quite different requirements and attitudes Yes, I was familiar with the concept but I didn't know the term project customer. I used terms like integrator and similar, which cover only part of the activities. Project customer is much more precise. I'm happy I finally found the word for them :) At least one visitor during our presence at the SYSTEMS 2008 fair expressed he is interested in 6 units [...] Hmm, if we assume a contribution towards RD and QA of about USD 50 per device, that would be 3 millions. A while ago, Maddog and I did a rough estimate of how much it would cost to make a new phone, similar in style to gta02-core, but with updated components, etc. We came up with a cost of about 2.5 millions before production (but including transfer, certification, etc.). This visitor may be one of those who would have enough resources to have their own design made (*), but may not realize it. (*) With the proviso that modules are used for most or all the RF parts. A design with RF components at the chip level would add difficulties and increase development cost. So for successful project business, one must either provide a product that is available for 5-7 years or at least a consistent roadmap/upgrade plan. I think either is very difficult to provide for an entire device using mobile phone technology. But I think that much of the push towards technological change can be buffered by having an Open design - one may not be able to avoid changing the bare metal, but interfaces and the software layers above the hardware can live as long as anyone cares to keep them alive. - Werner ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: project customers
Carsten Haitzler wrote: day. openmoko never made it to be big enough to continue - and ye once you get big enough, the kind of thing you talk about no longer make business sense (as you are busy shopping around to telcos who will order millions of devices). catch 22 :-S This is where an Open hardware design can help :-) No matter which role you play, you always have the purchase power of the whole group behind you. Openmoko Inc. found many doors open that would normally be closed for such a flyspeck of a company, because it promised manufacturers access to the Linux market. The Open hardware design also increases the scalability - the small garage company that makes 100 customized phones for the local shopping mall has access to the same design resources and can have access to much of the production resources as the largest member of the group. - Werner ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: project customers
On Mon, 12 Apr 2010 12:19:43 -0300 Werner Almesberger wer...@openmoko.org said: Carsten Haitzler wrote: day. openmoko never made it to be big enough to continue - and ye once you get big enough, the kind of thing you talk about no longer make business sense (as you are busy shopping around to telcos who will order millions of devices). catch 22 :-S This is where an Open hardware design can help :-) No matter which role you play, you always have the purchase power of the whole group behind you. Openmoko Inc. found many doors open that would normally be closed for such a flyspeck of a company, because it promised manufacturers access to the Linux market. too late for that. the others are in on the game. and now being open enough is all that's needed. window of opportunity for om and the likes has closed - or at the best is very close to closed. The Open hardware design also increases the scalability - the small garage company that makes 100 customized phones for the local shopping mall has access to the same design resources and can have access to much of the production resources as the largest member of the group. depends on who is buying the units to make it scale - if it's a telco, chances are they want it far from being open - that includes the hw design. chaning that doesn't come from a small company like om screaming. it comes from someone big enough to change the rules and power balance so its you have to come to us and beg for a phone - then we set the rules. apple are in such a position right now for example. :) -- - Codito, ergo sum - I code, therefore I am -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: project customers
Carsten Haitzler wrote: too late for that. the others are in on the game. and now being open enough is all that's needed. window of opportunity for om and the likes has closed - or at the best is very close to closed. I think the advantage is still there, it's just harder to communicate. Also in this regard, Open Design Hardware helps: you still don't get anything like this from the now open players. And from what I've heard and keep on hearing, there are lots of project customers who want to modify the hardware. They often also have the engineering resources to perform their changes. But also doing the rest of the phone would be too much for them. The Open phones would be sort of a reference designs created by the Open hardware development process, but not the one and only results. depends on who is buying the units to make it scale - if it's a telco, chances are they want it far from being open - that includes the hw design. chaning that doesn't come from a small company like om screaming. A small telco may be happy enough to finally be able to brand their products, too. I wouldn't try to deal with large telcos for now. Don't sleep with a girl who eats more than your own weight for breakfast :-) - Werner ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: project customers
On Mon, 12 Apr 2010 16:52:03 -0300 Werner Almesberger wer...@openmoko.org said: Carsten Haitzler wrote: too late for that. the others are in on the game. and now being open enough is all that's needed. window of opportunity for om and the likes has closed - or at the best is very close to closed. I think the advantage is still there, it's just harder to communicate. Also in this regard, Open Design Hardware helps: you still don't get anything like this from the now open players. if it's hard to communicate - you don't have a sales point. if someone is to spend money on something they need to be able to be told a simple thing and get it and go aha! that's just what we want!. until the market is actively seeking the kind of freedom you want to provide (schematics, cad design, 100% open source os in all ways), you are the guy in the street with a sign i have anchovie flavored chocolate. you really want some. the problem here is the market is happy with good enough. at least the market that buys millions of units. :) (that's why i mean by market btw - ie the mass market. of course niches will exist!) :) And from what I've heard and keep on hearing, there are lots of project customers who want to modify the hardware. They often also have the engineering resources to perform their changes. But also doing the rest of the phone would be too much for them. The Open phones would be sort of a reference designs created by the Open hardware development process, but not the one and only results. sure - but it seems those project customers want to feed off a stable supply line - and for that you need a mass market to consume it to have that production and thus supply line run to keep costs down, ensure basic quality of build, design, components etc. (thus why i focus on mass market). depends on who is buying the units to make it scale - if it's a telco, chances are they want it far from being open - that includes the hw design. chaning that doesn't come from a small company like om screaming. A small telco may be happy enough to finally be able to brand their products, too. I wouldn't try to deal with large telcos for now. Don't sleep with a girl who eats more than your own weight for breakfast :-) hahahahahahahahahhaha! :) maybe - the the small telcos are competing with bigger ones. the big ones get to attract customers with oooh we have an iphone! or check out this droid. branding is a nice to have... *IF* you can match the competition. you need to get there first before small telco might consider it. remember telco is trying to sell these phones to average joes - and those average joes see shiny sexy iphone, then see a freerunner... guess which one (and which telco) they choose? :) i know that to you, or to many freedom advocates all this fancy eyecandy, sexy design, high end components etc. seems all irrelevant to the goal of freedom - and if anything makes it harder, and you have a point - but that point imho vanishes with the market realities - to produce enough units to keep cost down, keep production flowing etc. you need mass market appeal. and that means matching, or beating, the competition in h i like that for the average joe. that means sexy swishy animations, beautiful graphics, good screen, responsive touch surface (capacitive), nice case/design, powerful cpu/gpu to power all the sexiness, 3g, and then apps and lots of them and so on... you need to at least provide what people now EXPECT from a phone. yes... even make and receive calls from reliably from day 1 the phone ships. :) it's a tough spot. what i see as more viable is making those that already produce phones, more open, and gradually prying things open. getting schematics is likely to simply never happen - you are talking different cultures even within such companies. the hardware sides just don't even want to hear the arguments. the software sides either get it already (and fight internally politically, or have tough tradeoffs to make - like making it more open will make your big customers go away as they can't close it down as easily), or are beginning to get it. life would be easy if they all already got it and did it. but... that's not the case. the closest to an open production-level phone today is the n900 - and it has been a pretty rocky start there. -- - Codito, ergo sum - I code, therefore I am -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: project customers
Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: We also had many discussions with project customers and basically they were happy with the device. And would prefer it over any consumer oriented device. Are there actually any stories of project customers whose project made it past the RD stage and who deployed a reasonably large number of devices, let's say = 100 ? I'm not aware of any, and that's bothering me a little, for it weakens my theory that project customers (I haven't heard this expression before Christoph used it, but I like it very much) would be a major market for an Open phone. It could be that the combination of long-lived problems and a short-lived product or series just left no window for this to happen. - Werner ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: project customers
Am 10.04.2010 um 09:56 schrieb Werner Almesberger: Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: We also had many discussions with project customers and basically they were happy with the device. And would prefer it over any consumer oriented device. Are there actually any stories of project customers whose project made it past the RD stage and who deployed a reasonably large number of devices, let's say = 100 ? I'm not aware of any, and that's bothering me a little, for it I am also not aware of any successful large scale project. While the Sharp Zaurus did have such projects. The largest real projects with Openmokos I have seen were in education (e.g. providing a classroom for embedded development training). weakens my theory that project customers (I haven't heard this In business strategy planning it is quite common to separate e.g. consumer, project, service, solution business types and markets because they have quite different requirements and attitudes in respect to quality, reliability, speed, loyality, functionality, cost, dependencies, legacy, supply markets etc. So one has to serve them differently. expression before Christoph used it, but I like it very much) would be a major market for an Open phone. At least one visitor during our presence at the SYSTEMS 2008 fair expressed he is interested in 6 units to install special encryption software. And, he was looking for an open hardware device because he could then 100% prove to his customers (government, police) what is inside the device. It could be that the combination of long-lived problems and a short-lived product or series just left no window for this to happen. Definitively. Such projects usually have 2-3 years planning phase (from the idea through convincing management, getting a budget, selecting suppliers, negotiating prices, finally making a purchase order etc.). And then typically 3-5 years deployment where replacement, spare parts etc. must remain available and devices must remain compatible to any infrastructure that comes with the project. So for successful project business, one must either provide a product that is available for 5-7 years or at least a consistent roadmap/upgrade plan. This is completely different to a consumer market where the buyer just wants the best product available today. And then comes back after 2 years and wants to have a new one, most likely from a different brand and 100% incompatible. Look e.g. at settop boxes for cable or IP TV. Although they are finally in the hands of consumers, they are deployed through roll-out projects by network operators. So the technology of a device must match the technology of the network at the time of introduction. Which is a constantly moving target and makes it a nightmare for the product managers working for a settop box supplier :) Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: project customers
Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: Definitively. Such projects usually have 2-3 years planning phase (from the idea through convincing management, getting a budget, selecting suppliers, negotiating prices, finally making a purchase order etc.). And then typically 3-5 years deployment where replacement, spare parts etc. must remain available and devices must remain compatible to any infrastructure that comes with the project. So for successful project business, one must either provide a product that is available for 5-7 years or at least a consistent roadmap/upgrade plan. This is completely different to a consumer market where the buyer just wants the best product available today. And then comes back after 2 years and wants to have a new one, most likely from a different brand and 100% incompatible. I have to aggree from my own experience. Our company is doing HW and SW for Czech Railways. We are still running 600 small 486 devices running MSDOS (we had 1200 of them just a year ago). And we are also still developing new SW products for these devices. It is very important that the device is supported for 10+ years in this area. It is also important that the operating system and HW is stable and not changing under your hands. You install it once and it must work for those 10 years. Regards Radek ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: project customers
On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 12:37 PM, Christoph Pulster openm...@pulster.dewrote: I can confirm sold units worldwide is 20.000 maximum. Is FreeRunner still in production? I mean: is there a factory producing any FreeRunners? best regards, giovanni ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: project customers
Am 09.04.2010 um 12:37 schrieb Christoph Pulster: Perhaps I should clarify that I don't mean to make fun of your situation. We're all in the same boat here. No problem Werner, all your optinions and comments are very welcome. As you already said, companiess who built a solution based on the Openmoko need a reliable product AND a reliable company behind. The product, Freerunner, had a lot severe bugs (GPS not working, GSM buzzing, #1024 suspend problems). Also after fixing this with new revisions and third partys (Dr.Nikolaus), the product is not ready to compete in the market. Very poor battery life to mention just one serious no-go. We also had many discussions with project customers and basically they were happy with the device. And would prefer it over any consumer oriented device. There have been really interesting projects people have done with their Freerunners. Just some I remember: * one was shot into space (60 km altitude) by DLR * one was used as the onboard computer for a sudent built racing car * two have been used in a history museum as visitor guides * etc. In my talks, the technical problems or lack of technological competitiveness (compare to the rumours of a 960x480 display for the next generation iPhone) were rarely a real issue. Most projects just need a device that works well enough for them. And is open enough so that they can completely install their own software down to the bootloader (this is critical for security related projects). Not all projects need GPS, not all need a good standby time more than the 130-140 hours that are now available. And many would have been happy with a pure PDA. But you are completely right in the analysis for the non-technical aspects. In marketing, there is the word the Product of a Company is everything, not only the Device. I.e. logistics, customer support, long term roadmap, customer specific variants etc. are also part of the product. And in these categories, project customers did not get what they had expected or required. And, the economical crisis did postpone and cancel many of the more flexible and innovative projects that could withstand such issues. The company Openmoko Inc. missed to give customers a reliable support and long-term concept. The open idea stopped behind the doors, no info Exactly. about stock availability, spare parts supply etc. CEO Sean is an visionary, not a sales guy. Steve Mosher's part of the game was not evident. (BTW, what is the status of Steve according Qi ?) I had a project asking for 2500 units as a first order only. Openmoko Inc. failed to provide this customer a infrastructure. I can confirm sold units worldwide is 20.000 maximum. which is a very poor result and can not give a living for anyone. The game openmoko was only possible with the financial injection of FIC. the funds are gone, the Wikireader is an anachronistic product and If we take 50 employees over 2 years and compare with 20k units sold at rougly 300 USD average (with 20% gross margin which is industry avarage) one can estimate how much money had to be injected... will not give any cashback. Not to misunderstand, the game opensource is just starting. if you need to, remember Openmoko as a early hero. Yes, they definitively were early heros. And currently, we all work on their appreciation. Maybe there will come an Open Phoenux and fly again... Nikolaus Mobile Office Solutions by Golden Delicious Computers GmbHCo. KG Buchenstr. 3 D-82041 Oberhaching +49-89-54290367 http://www.handheld-linux.com AG München, HRA 89571 VAT DE253626266 Komplementär: Golden Delicious Computers Verwaltungs GmbH Oberhaching, AG München, HRB 16602 Geschäftsführer: Dr. Nikolaus Schaller Digital Tools for Independent People ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: project customers
On Fri, 2010-04-09 at 12:37 +0200, Christoph Pulster wrote: [snip] Not to misunderstand, the game opensource is just starting. if you need to, remember Openmoko as a early hero. Here I completely agree with you, Christoph. I personally don't see the FR as a fail. It's more like a success in that we (the community) have proven an open source phone, while not perfect yet, is indeed possible. And while the FR may not live long enough, an open phone OS like SHR, QTMoko or Debian will run on other devices too, in time. I think we are just at the beginning, not the end. And I am very proud to be part of this, even if I don't (yet) have the time to be more involved :). I don't regret purchasing the FR at all. Christoph Cheers, Benedikt ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: project customers
Christoph Pulster wrote: As you already said, companiess who built a solution based on the Openmoko need a reliable product AND a reliable company behind. Hmm, I think you're right that there has to be a company that buffers the customer from the increasingly chaotic (*) inner layers. However, I'm not sure this company has to be the manufacturer or owner of the product, nor that there would have to be just one company in this buffer role. E.g., I could easily imagine a consortium grouped around an open design. That's one of the possible directions I see for the work we've started with gta02-core. Such a consortium could be much more reliable than a single company. If someone drops out, others can fill the gap. If the consortium as a whole falls apart or veers off course, anyone can pick up the design and continue producing it. You can even have mobility at the level of individual engineers. So the product would live as long as there's enough interest in seeing it live, much as it is with Open Source software. Also, if we consider project customers, many of them have needs the current market offerings cannot satisfy, they usually do have technical competence, and they have some money. What they don't have is the size and pull to just create the product they need from scratch. Now, there are many roles they could play. They could be just customers. They could take a more proactive role and be part of such a consortium. Or maybe they're even underestimating their potential and would actually be able to take the lead in creating such a product from scratch. They just don't think they could. (*) Chaotic, not necessarily because of a lack of structure, but simply because of the amount of information going around and because there will invariably be a lot of horrifying news that don't have much of an impact in the long run. - Werner ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
project customers (was Re: beautiful qt based)
I wrote: So I'm not exactly surprised that you don't have hordes of project customers banging at your door, begging for more FreeRunners. Perhaps I should clarify that I don't mean to make fun of your situation. We're all in the same boat here. But I think it's important to be aware that this kind of completely non-technical issue can disqualify the product for project customers. The irony here is that the openness as such would be a very strong point in favour of something like the FreeRunner, especially for those with long-term plans, and it's sad that we (as in those who believe in the ideas behind the Openmoko project) have missed this opportunity so far. Of course, where something isn't right, there's also an opportunity to do better :-) - Werner ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
