Re: [Community-Discuss] NRS Accountability and Transparency (was: Re: Call for a Special General Member’s Meeting)

[Noah]

On Fri, 3 Jun 2022, 16:01 John Curran,  wrote:

>
> On 3 Jun 2022, at 5:57 AM, Paul Hjul  wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> A petition has reached critical mass to call an SGMM, hopefully the Board
> won't play pokey on this one.
>
> Dear Members,
>
> For your information, the members who signed the petitions have already
> discussed and thereafter informed the Board to call for the Special General
> Member’s Meeting as it is representing not less than 5% of the Resource
> Members as required by the bylaws. All related documents that were shared
> herein are sent to the Board and Chair as well for their reference and
> review.
>
> Please see the attached link below for the content of the petition ;
> https://www.nrs.help/petition
>
> Regards,
> Paul Hjul
> Member
>
>
> Paul -
>
> As this petition appears to be organized by the “Number Resource Society”
> (NRS) – a body which purports to hold core beliefs and values that include
> an Internet "that relies on a global free market and enterprise with
> excellent transparency and accountability” – and further appears (if I
> understand the associated video on the NRS website promoting the petition)
> to be claiming the petition is necessary to improve accountability and
> transparency of the RIR system, it would probably be good if the NRS itself
> would provide a modicum of transparency in this process.
>
> To this end, could you explain the Governing Body and procedures of the
> NRS?   I note that NRS Membership "Terms and Conditions” <
> https://www.nrs.help/terms-conditions> notes that admission is not open
> to all, but is subject to "acceptance of the Admission Committee”, but can
> find no reference to the process for seating or present composition of said
> Committee.
>
> From the Terms and Conditions it is also clear that the obligations of
> membership bind one to acting & voting "in line with the objective,
> mission, guide, instructions, and/or  mandate of NRS and which include but
> are not limited to policy internet making and/or voting in line with the
>  objectives of NRS with regard to freedom in accessing internet,
> internet stability, fair distribution of internet.”, but it is less so who
> exactly in the NRS make the determination of what particular votes (whether
> policy or election) would be in compliance with the “objective, mission,
> guide, instructions, and/or  mandate of NRS” – this appears to be very
> important for one to have before signing away the ability to make
> independent judgement in such matters.
>
> It is strange that the NRS "shall have the absolute discretion to
> terminate the membership of a Member at any time with prior notice to the
> member without assigning any reason.” – there seems to be a lack of due
> process here, and hence the governance provisions of the NRS would seem
> woefully lacking for a body that intends aid community representation.
>
> If you could elaborate on the above issues, that might allow others to
> understand how a body that purports to want to improve accountability can
> do so while lacking in community accountability itself.   It is possible
> that I misunderstand its governance structures, so any insight that you (or
> others at the NRS) can provide might clarify things a bit…   as it is, the
> NRS operates rather opaquely despite its purported lofty goals of excellent
> transparency and accountability.
>
> Thanks!
> /John
>
> John Curran
> President and CEO
> American Registry for Internet Numbers
>


Attention Paul Hjul

Just in case you missed the above email, your response would come in handy
to the questions Mr.John Curran asked you?

Noah
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Re: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] ATTENDANCE & PARTICIPATION AT THE ANNUAL GENERAL MEMBERS’ MEETING (AGMM)

[Ronald F. Guilmette]

In message ,
Owen DeLong  wrote:

>I do not know to what extent NRS is driven by Lu or not. I do know that he
>was involved in its creation and I told him at the time that I wanted nothing
>to do with it because I did not think that the intended mission was a good idea

Owen, even though you are steadfastly claiming that you have no direct
involvement with NRS, as I have previously noted, and as you yourself
confirmed, Lu Heng was, at the very least, involved in its creation.

I wonder then if you would be so kind as to reach out and see if you can
find out, on behalf of us all, the identity of the freckled Irishman who
plays the starring role in most or all of the NRS YouTube propaganda videos.
I, for one, would be very interested to know just who the hell he is.  Except
for the fact that he still has both ears he is a dead ringer for the long
deceased painter Vincent van Gogh and I can't help wondering if there is
some relation (although van Gogh had no children, as far as I know).

I really would like to know who that guy is, but it does seem that he makes
no effort whatsoever, in any of his numerous over-the-top defamatory
propaganda videos, to even introduce himself, much less the author(s) of
the script(s) he is reading from.

Why is that?  Is he perhaps so ashamed of what he's doing that even as a
hired actor he doesn't want his own name associated with any of this rubbish?

I must remark also on the marvelously ironic humor of watching this particular
and exceptionally white guy preaching his bought & paid for gospel of how to
save the African Internet.

Since the beginning of the pandemic, I have, I confess, seen the sun directly
only much lss often than I used to.  And thus, being caucasian as I am, these
days I am even more pale than usual.  But this freckled Irishman in the NRS
videos makes even me look like Meghan Markle by way of comparison.  And this
particular fellow wants to lecture Africans on how best to run the African
portion of the Internet???

Forgive me.  It is not my intent to bring race into this.  Not by any means.
It is just that I am more than a little troubled by the fact that this fellow,
who is the only voice and only star in all of the NRS videos, looks and sounds
about as African as your typical Eskimo.  So I kind-of would like to know who
he is and where he is speaking from.  I'd also like to be able to ask him
directly if he has ever even set foot in Africa.

It's OK if he hasn't of course.  He has a right to his opinions just as you
or I have.  But if one is going to verbosely and vividly proselytize on the
topic of what is best or Africa, then I think that one should at least state
one's name and the reasons for such a personal interest.  This guy hasn't,
and thus he remains a mystery man... a total enigma.

Owen, can you find out who he is and let as all know?  An email address or
phone number would be helpful also.  Thanks in advance.


regards,
rfg

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Re: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Congratulations to the new Chair & Vice-Chair of AFRINIC

[dmurungi]

Dear community,

I write to congratulate Mr. Eshun and Dr. Omari. Am hopeful they will 
execute their duties in the best interest of AFRINIC and the community 
at large.


Additionally, many thanks to the outgoing chair and vice chair for their 
selfless service and leadership.


Regards,
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Re: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] ATTENDANCE & PARTICIPATION AT THE ANNUAL GENERAL MEMBERS’ MEETING (AGMM)

[Ronald F. Guilmette]

In message , 
Owen DeLong  wrote:

>I do not know to what extent NRS is driven by Lu or not. I do know that he
>was involved in its creation and I told him at the time that I wanted nothing
>to do with it because I did not think that the intended mission was a good idea

In my opinion, and based on at least some evidence, it is altogether self-
evident that NRS is yet another entity created by Lu Heng to serve his
evident interests.

He's on this mailing list.  If he wants to deny that, then let him come here
and do that.

I do not believe that NRS sprung, like the goddess Athena, magically from
the brow of Zeus.  It required funding and organization and also the
motivation to provide both.  Its goals would certainly appear to be 100%
in alignment with Lu Heng's goals and (financial) motivations.  The timing
of its creation (the domain name nrs.help was registered on 2021-08-06)
and its alleged physical location (Hong Kong) also provide some rather
obvious clues.

Owen, it is easy enough for you to claim some ignorance or innocence with
regards to the unambiguously underhanded tactics of the people behind NRS,
but you will have trouble convincing me me that you aren't earning your
daily bread by working for these exact same unethical people, even if
you may only be doing so under a different one of the several corporate
names that Lu Heng has registered for his expansive operations.

If a mere multiplicity of corporate facades is enough of a basis to assuage
your conscience, then all I can say is that you have a rather more pliant
sense of ethics than I.


Regards,
rfg

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Re: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Congratulations to the new Chair & Vice-Chair of AFRINIC

[Sunday Folayan]

Congratulations to the new Chair - Benjamin and the Vice Chair - Abdallah
on your appointment.

Good luck, as you navigate the waters and work hard to quickly achieve
compliance.

Please work with all willing members to seek ways to resolve all pending
disputes, using Alternative Dispute Resolution methods where possible.

Many thanks to SM and Prof for your services to the community.

Sunday.

On Tue, Jun 7, 2022 at 8:16 AM Ish Sookun 
wrote:

> Dear Mr. Eshun & Dr. Omari,
>
> I congratulate both of you for your appointment as Chairman and
> Vice-Chairman of AFRINIC respectively.
> I wish you all the best and hope you will be able to navigate the
> organisation through the rough waters.
>
> I also thank SM for his time, guidance and leadership.
>
> Regards,
>
> ———
>
> Ish Sookun
>
> Systems Architect @ La Sentinelle Ltd
>
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Re: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] ATTENDANCE & PARTICIPATION AT THE ANNUAL GENERAL MEMBERS’ MEETING (AGMM)

[Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss]

> On Jun 8, 2022, at 11:43 , Ronald F. Guilmette  wrote:
> 
> In message  >, 
> Owen DeLong mailto:o...@delong.com>> wrote:
> 
>>> On Jun 7, 2022, at 17:03 , Ronald F. Guilmette  
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> In message ,
>>> Owen DeLong  wrote:
>>> 
 Again, I don't know the details, but this is what I surmise from
 the video and from other comments I've seen on the lists. I had
 no involvement with or knowledge of any such scheme, and consider such a
 scheme extremely unethical and immoral even if it is perfectly legal.
>>> 
>>> But in your view, these activities and the company that undertook them
>>> are not -sufficiently- unethical and immoral to prevent you from cashing
>>> any more checks from that company, yes?
>> 
>> I have no affiliation with NRS and have not taken any money from them,
>> so your insinuation is out of line here.
> 
> This is a quite slippery response Owen, since it is, I believe, altogether
> clear and apparent that the same single party is the driving force and the
> person who ultimately signs the checks for both Cloud Innovation and NRS,
> as well as Larus, the Larus Foundation, and perhaps also an as-yet-to-be-
> determined collection of additional entities.

I do not know to what extent NRS is driven by Lu or not. I do know that he
was involved in its creation and I told him at the time that I wanted nothing
to do with it because I did not think that the intended mission was a good idea
and NRS has done nothing to make me think any better of it since that time.

In business, we all end up working with/for people who do things we don’t like.

I don’t work for or have anything to do with NRS and I don’t work for defense
contractors and the like.

> Are you asserting that this is NOT the case?

I honestly don’t know. I share the same suspicions you state above, but
I really literally do not know. I will refer you to one of your own statements
to me about distinguishing between idle gossip and proof.

Owen

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Re: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] ATTENDANCE & PARTICIPATION AT THE ANNUAL GENERAL MEMBERS’ MEETING (AGMM)

[Ronald F. Guilmette]

In message , 
Owen DeLong  wrote:

>> On Jun 7, 2022, at 17:03 , Ronald F. Guilmette  
>> wrote:
>>
>> In message ,
>> Owen DeLong  wrote:
>>
>>> Again, I don't know the details, but this is what I surmise from
>>> the video and from other comments I've seen on the lists. I had
>>> no involvement with or knowledge of any such scheme, and consider such a
>>> scheme extremely unethical and immoral even if it is perfectly legal.
>>
>> But in your view, these activities and the company that undertook them
>> are not -sufficiently- unethical and immoral to prevent you from cashing
>> any more checks from that company, yes?
>
>I have no affiliation with NRS and have not taken any money from them,
>so your insinuation is out of line here.

This is a quite slippery response Owen, since it is, I believe, altogether
clear and apparent that the same single party is the driving force and the
person who ultimately signs the checks for both Cloud Innovation and NRS,
as well as Larus, the Larus Foundation, and perhaps also an as-yet-to-be-
determined collection of additional entities.

Are you asserting that this is NOT the case?


Regards,
rfg

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Re: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Congratulations to the new Chair & Vice-Chair of AFRINIC

[Janvier NGNOULAYE]

Thank you dear CEO Eddy for the clarifications.
I would like to join others with congratulations to both Mr. Ben & Dr.
Abdalla, and wish them success and great courage in their new roles of
Chair and vice-chair respectively, in this space which tends to become a
zero-tolerance and zero-trust system.
I also extend thanks to the former Chair and vice-chair for their hard and
voluntary work in a difficult context in leadership over the past two years.

Warm regards,
Janvier Ngnoulaye
University of Yaounde 1

Le mer. 8 juin 2022 à 12:09, Eddy Kayihura  a écrit :

> Dear All,
>
> The process was followed as per the bylaws provisions.
>
> Regards,
>
> Eddy
>
> On 8 Jun 2022, at 12:57, Noah  wrote:
>
> 
> Andrew,
>
> On Wed, 8 Jun 2022, 13:48 Andrew Alston, 
> wrote:
>
>> On the contrary Noah,
>>
>>
>>
>> No one is “throwing shade” – we are asking the board to confirm that the
>> process was correctly followed. Which, considering the events of the AGMM
>> and the blatant violations of the bylaws that occurred there – is a very
>> fair question to ask.
>>
>
> I am certain the CEO and the board have read your fair questions and
> without doubt they shall respond, however, the claims of lack of quorum by
> some is what I was referring to in respect to the bylaws which I attempted
> to explain and Mark Elkins did us a service to paste the said section for
> the doubtful thomas's among us.
>
>>
>>
>> And – if you dispute there were blatant violations of the bylaws in the
>> context of the AGMM – Please, let me know – I will quote you chapter and
>> verse as to exactly where they happened.
>>
>
> This is something else, so let us not mix things up.
>
> Noah
>
>>
>>
>> Andrew
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Noah 
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, June 8, 2022 1:39 PM
>> *To:* Mark Elkins 
>> *Cc:* AFRINIC Community Discuss ; AfriNIC
>> Discuss ; Owen DeLong 
>> *Subject:* Re: [members-discuss] [Community-Discuss] Congratulations to
>> the new Chair & Vice-Chair of AFRINIC
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Mark
>>
>>
>>
>> This is exactly what I was educating someone on a separate thread on
>> members list but it seems we are a point where throwing shades at the board
>> at any chance some folks get, is a thing now.
>>
>>
>>
>> Noah
>>
>> On Wed, 8 Jun 2022, 13:16 Mark Elkins,  wrote:
>>
>> Just so that people are clear... Page 30 of the AfriNIC Bylaws image
>> cut from the PDF.
>>
>> Thus if there are at least three Board Members, if one leaves the room -
>> the last two can call a meeting, see that there is no quorum, send notice
>> to the third, adjourn the meeting and then after at least 24 hours, conduct
>> a meeting in quorum assuming then that there are at least three Board
>> members. If this happens - it must be minuted.
>>
>> On 6/8/22 6:36 AM, Andrew Alston via Community-Discuss wrote:
>>
>> Hi Owen,
>>
>>
>>
>> Well - it depends.  If a non-quorate meeting was called and then
>> adjourned for 24 hours and reconvened they would gain quorum under the
>> bylaws.
>>
>>
>>
>> The question becomes - and this is where I am uncertain and believe it is
>> open to debate - can a meeting be called knowing full well that quorum
>> cannot be there and then adjourned for 24 hours to gain quorum - thereby
>> deliberately exploiting a loophole.  It is one thing to call a meeting
>> thinking you would have quorum - not getting it - adjourning for 24 hours
>> and then gaining quorum after giving notice to the absent directors.  It is
>> another thing entirely to call a meeting knowing full well quorum could not
>> be met and having no one to give notice to.
>>
>>
>>
>> Either way at bare minimum a meeting would have had to be called -
>> adjourned 24 hours - and then reconvened to be quorate.  This would have to
>> be minuted.  The board has been silent on if this process was followed
>> despite members asking the question.  Once again we face a situation where
>> this organization is not answering legitimate questions from its members -
>> and to me that is even more troublesome than the quorum issue.
>>
>>
>>
>> Furthermore - last I checked the board of directors page online had
>> updated the chair and vice chair but was still showing the old directors
>> listed as current - why has that not been updated to show the vacant seats
>> accordingly
>>
>>
>>
>> Andrew
>>
>>
>>
>> Get Outlook for iOS 
>> --
>>
>> *From:* Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss 
>> 
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, June 8, 2022 12:54:52 AM
>> *To:* Ish Sookun 
>> 
>> *Cc:* AFRINIC Community Discuss 
>> ; AfriNIC Discuss
>>  
>> *Subject:* Re: [Community-Discuss] Congratulations to the new Chair &
>> Vice-Chair of AFRINIC
>>
>>
>>
>> How did the board hold a meeting given that they cannot field a quorum
>> after the AGMM?
>>
>> Owen
>>
>>
>> > On Jun 7, 2022, at 00:15 , Ish Sookun 
>>  wrote:
>> >
>> > Dear Mr. Eshun & Dr. Omari,
>> >
>> > I congratulate both of you for your appointment as Chairman and
>> Vice-Chairman of AFRINIC respectively.
>> 

Re: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] ATTENDANCE & PARTICIPATION AT THE ANNUAL GENERAL MEMBERS’ MEETING (AGMM)

[Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss]

> On Jun 7, 2022, at 17:03 , Ronald F. Guilmette  wrote:
> 
> In message , 
> Owen DeLong  wrote:
> 
>> Again, I don't know the details, but this is what I surmise from
>> the video and from other comments I've seen on the lists. I had
>> no involvement with or knowledge of any such scheme, and consider such a
>> scheme extremely unethical and immoral even if it is perfectly legal.
> 
> But in your view, these activities and the company that undertook them
> are not -sufficiently- unethical and immoral to prevent you from cashing
> any more checks from that company, yes?

I have no affiliation with NRS and have not taken any money from them,
so your insinuation is out of line here.

Owen


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Re: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Congratulations to the new Chair & Vice-Chair of AFRINIC

[Andrew Alston via Community-Discuss]

Sorry, but I must disagree that it is something else.

As I stated to someone – there was a time when people stepped outside of the 
bylaws that on minor issues it would be overlooked – but the time has come and 
gone when there can be no more affordances granted – because the boards actions 
have placed the members in a position where now, every action will be 
questioned to be sure it is in line with the bylaws to the letter.

I point out that the website itself was updated with the new chair and vice 
chair – yet it also still shows the other directors as current – they aren’t. 
Despite an update having been done to that page that updates the chair and vice 
chair.

I point out that the extension of term for the vice chair was disputed – and 
the board minutes clearly show that it was disputed – and also clearly indicate 
that there were conflicting legal opinions about if it was even legal to do 
what the board did in extending that term – and now – despite that – the board 
went and made him vice chair against a resolution that is, at best, legally 
dubious since it is an open question if he is still legally a director – and I 
suspect that will be heard in court once the issue of the election challenges 
is heard properly.

So yes – people are asking questions – and not without cause – questions that 
every member has a right to – and probably should – be asking at every stage.

Andrew


From: Noah 
Sent: Wednesday, June 8, 2022 1:57 PM
To: Andrew Alston 
Cc: Mark Elkins ; AFRINIC Community Discuss 
; AfriNIC Discuss ; 
Owen DeLong 
Subject: Re: [members-discuss] [Community-Discuss] Congratulations to the new 
Chair & Vice-Chair of AFRINIC

Andrew,
On Wed, 8 Jun 2022, 13:48 Andrew Alston, 
mailto:andrew.als...@liquidtelecom.com>> wrote:
On the contrary Noah,

No one is “throwing shade” – we are asking the board to confirm that the 
process was correctly followed. Which, considering the events of the AGMM and 
the blatant violations of the bylaws that occurred there – is a very fair 
question to ask.

I am certain the CEO and the board have read your fair questions and without 
doubt they shall respond, however, the claims of lack of quorum by some is what 
I was referring to in respect to the bylaws which I attempted to explain and 
Mark Elkins did us a service to paste the said section for the doubtful 
thomas's among us.

And – if you dispute there were blatant violations of the bylaws in the context 
of the AGMM – Please, let me know – I will quote you chapter and verse as to 
exactly where they happened.

This is something else, so let us not mix things up.

Noah

Andrew


From: Noah mailto:n...@neo.co.tz>>
Sent: Wednesday, June 8, 2022 1:39 PM
To: Mark Elkins mailto:m...@posix.co.za>>
Cc: AFRINIC Community Discuss 
mailto:community-discuss@afrinic.net>>; AfriNIC 
Discuss mailto:members-disc...@afrinic.net>>; Owen 
DeLong mailto:o...@delong.com>>
Subject: Re: [members-discuss] [Community-Discuss] Congratulations to the new 
Chair & Vice-Chair of AFRINIC

Hi Mark

This is exactly what I was educating someone on a separate thread on members 
list but it seems we are a point where throwing shades at the board at any 
chance some folks get, is a thing now.

Noah
On Wed, 8 Jun 2022, 13:16 Mark Elkins, 
mailto:m...@posix.co.za>> wrote:

Just so that people are clear... Page 30 of the AfriNIC Bylaws image cut 
from the PDF.



Thus if there are at least three Board Members, if one leaves the room - the 
last two can call a meeting, see that there is no quorum, send notice to the 
third, adjourn the meeting and then after at least 24 hours, conduct a meeting 
in quorum assuming then that there are at least three Board members. If this 
happens - it must be minuted.
On 6/8/22 6:36 AM, Andrew Alston via Community-Discuss wrote:
Hi Owen,

Well - it depends.  If a non-quorate meeting was called and then adjourned for 
24 hours and reconvened they would gain quorum under the bylaws.

The question becomes - and this is where I am uncertain and believe it is open 
to debate - can a meeting be called knowing full well that quorum cannot be 
there and then adjourned for 24 hours to gain quorum - thereby deliberately 
exploiting a loophole.  It is one thing to call a meeting thinking you would 
have quorum - not getting it - adjourning for 24 hours and then gaining quorum 
after giving notice to the absent directors.  It is another thing entirely to 
call a meeting knowing full well quorum could not be met and having no one to 
give notice to.

Either way at bare minimum a meeting would have had to be called - adjourned 24 
hours - and then reconvened to be quorate.  This would have to be minuted.  The 
board has been silent on if this process was followed despite members asking 
the question.  Once again we face a situation where this organization is not 
answering legitimate questions from its members - and to me that is even more 
troublesome than the quorum issue.

Furthermore - last I checked the board 

Re: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Congratulations to the new Chair & Vice-Chair of AFRINIC

[robert ford via Community-Discuss]

Thank you CEO Eddy,

I agree with you and so are other reasonable members of this community. There 
will always be dissatisfied members but this community shall always strive to 
move on and at the right side of the law. 

Thank you for your hard work and dedication. 

Regards


Robert Ford 
Independent ICT Consultant 
EAC ONA & Tech Investments
+250 788504406
Twitter: @robertnford
Skype: robert4dd

Sent from my MacBook Air 13’ 





> On 8 Jun 2022, at 14:08, Eddy Kayihura  > wrote:
> 
> Dear All,
> 
> The process was followed as per the bylaws provisions.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Eddy
> 
>> On 8 Jun 2022, at 12:57, Noah mailto:n...@neo.co.tz>> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> Andrew,
>> 
>> On Wed, 8 Jun 2022, 13:48 Andrew Alston, > > wrote:
>> On the contrary Noah,
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> No one is “throwing shade” – we are asking the board to confirm that the 
>> process was correctly followed. Which, considering the events of the AGMM 
>> and the blatant violations of the bylaws that occurred there – is a very 
>> fair question to ask.
>> 
>> 
>> I am certain the CEO and the board have read your fair questions and without 
>> doubt they shall respond, however, the claims of lack of quorum by some is 
>> what I was referring to in respect to the bylaws which I attempted to 
>> explain and Mark Elkins did us a service to paste the said section for the 
>> doubtful thomas's among us.
>>  
>> 
>> And – if you dispute there were blatant violations of the bylaws in the 
>> context of the AGMM – Please, let me know – I will quote you chapter and 
>> verse as to exactly where they happened.
>> 
>> 
>> This is something else, so let us not mix things up.
>> 
>> Noah
>>  
>> 
>> Andrew
>> 
>>  
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> From: Noah mailto:n...@neo.co.tz>> 
>> Sent: Wednesday, June 8, 2022 1:39 PM
>> To: Mark Elkins mailto:m...@posix.co.za>>
>> Cc: AFRINIC Community Discuss > >; AfriNIC Discuss 
>> mailto:members-disc...@afrinic.net>>; Owen 
>> DeLong mailto:o...@delong.com>>
>> Subject: Re: [members-discuss] [Community-Discuss] Congratulations to the 
>> new Chair & Vice-Chair of AFRINIC
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Hi Mark
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> This is exactly what I was educating someone on a separate thread on members 
>> list but it seems we are a point where throwing shades at the board at any 
>> chance some folks get, is a thing now.
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Noah
>> 
>> On Wed, 8 Jun 2022, 13:16 Mark Elkins, > > wrote:
>> 
>> Just so that people are clear... Page 30 of the AfriNIC Bylaws image cut 
>> from the PDF.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Thus if there are at least three Board Members, if one leaves the room - the 
>> last two can call a meeting, see that there is no quorum, send notice to the 
>> third, adjourn the meeting and then after at least 24 hours, conduct a 
>> meeting in quorum assuming then that there are at least three Board members. 
>> If this happens - it must be minuted.
>> 
>> On 6/8/22 6:36 AM, Andrew Alston via Community-Discuss wrote:
>> 
>> Hi Owen,
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Well - it depends.  If a non-quorate meeting was called and then adjourned 
>> for 24 hours and reconvened they would gain quorum under the bylaws.
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> The question becomes - and this is where I am uncertain and believe it is 
>> open to debate - can a meeting be called knowing full well that quorum 
>> cannot be there and then adjourned for 24 hours to gain quorum - thereby 
>> deliberately exploiting a loophole.  It is one thing to call a meeting 
>> thinking you would have quorum - not getting it - adjourning for 24 hours 
>> and then gaining quorum after giving notice to the absent directors.  It is 
>> another thing entirely to call a meeting knowing full well quorum could not 
>> be met and having no one to give notice to.
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Either way at bare minimum a meeting would have had to be called - adjourned 
>> 24 hours - and then reconvened to be quorate.  This would have to be 
>> minuted.  The board has been silent on if this process was followed despite 
>> members asking the question.  Once again we face a situation where this 
>> organization is not answering legitimate questions from its members - and to 
>> me that is even more troublesome than the quorum issue.
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Furthermore - last I checked the board of directors page online had updated 
>> the chair and vice chair but was still showing the old directors listed as 
>> current - why has that not been updated to show the vacant seats accordingly
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Andrew 
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Get Outlook for iOS 
>> From: Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss  
>> 
>> Sent: Wednesday, June 8, 2022 12:54:52 AM
>> To: Ish Sookun  
>> 
>> Cc: AFRINIC Community Discuss  
>> ; AfriNIC Discuss 
>>  
>> Subject: Re: 

Re: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Congratulations to the new Chair & Vice-Chair of AFRINIC

[Noah]

On Wed, 8 Jun 2022, 14:09 Eddy Kayihura,  wrote:

> Dear All,
>
> The process was followed as per the bylaws provisions.
>
> Regards,
>
> Eddy
>

I thought so I rest my case.

Thank you Eddy.

Noah
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Re: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Congratulations to the new Chair & Vice-Chair of AFRINIC

[Eddy Kayihura]

Dear All,

The process was followed as per the bylaws provisions.

Regards,

Eddy

> On 8 Jun 2022, at 12:57, Noah  wrote:
> 
> 
> Andrew,
> 
>> On Wed, 8 Jun 2022, 13:48 Andrew Alston,  
>> wrote:
>> On the contrary Noah,
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> No one is “throwing shade” – we are asking the board to confirm that the 
>> process was correctly followed. Which, considering the events of the AGMM 
>> and the blatant violations of the bylaws that occurred there – is a very 
>> fair question to ask.
>> 
> 
> 
> I am certain the CEO and the board have read your fair questions and without 
> doubt they shall respond, however, the claims of lack of quorum by some is 
> what I was referring to in respect to the bylaws which I attempted to explain 
> and Mark Elkins did us a service to paste the said section for the doubtful 
> thomas's among us.
>>  
>> 
>> And – if you dispute there were blatant violations of the bylaws in the 
>> context of the AGMM – Please, let me know – I will quote you chapter and 
>> verse as to exactly where they happened.
>> 
> 
> 
> This is something else, so let us not mix things up.
> 
> Noah
>>  
>> 
>> Andrew
>> 
>>  
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> From: Noah  
>> Sent: Wednesday, June 8, 2022 1:39 PM
>> To: Mark Elkins 
>> Cc: AFRINIC Community Discuss ; AfriNIC 
>> Discuss ; Owen DeLong 
>> Subject: Re: [members-discuss] [Community-Discuss] Congratulations to the 
>> new Chair & Vice-Chair of AFRINIC
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Hi Mark
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> This is exactly what I was educating someone on a separate thread on members 
>> list but it seems we are a point where throwing shades at the board at any 
>> chance some folks get, is a thing now.
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Noah
>> 
>> On Wed, 8 Jun 2022, 13:16 Mark Elkins,  wrote:
>> 
>> Just so that people are clear... Page 30 of the AfriNIC Bylaws image cut 
>> from the PDF.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Thus if there are at least three Board Members, if one leaves the room - the 
>> last two can call a meeting, see that there is no quorum, send notice to the 
>> third, adjourn the meeting and then after at least 24 hours, conduct a 
>> meeting in quorum assuming then that there are at least three Board members. 
>> If this happens - it must be minuted.
>> 
>> On 6/8/22 6:36 AM, Andrew Alston via Community-Discuss wrote:
>> 
>> Hi Owen,
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Well - it depends.  If a non-quorate meeting was called and then adjourned 
>> for 24 hours and reconvened they would gain quorum under the bylaws.
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> The question becomes - and this is where I am uncertain and believe it is 
>> open to debate - can a meeting be called knowing full well that quorum 
>> cannot be there and then adjourned for 24 hours to gain quorum - thereby 
>> deliberately exploiting a loophole.  It is one thing to call a meeting 
>> thinking you would have quorum - not getting it - adjourning for 24 hours 
>> and then gaining quorum after giving notice to the absent directors.  It is 
>> another thing entirely to call a meeting knowing full well quorum could not 
>> be met and having no one to give notice to.
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Either way at bare minimum a meeting would have had to be called - adjourned 
>> 24 hours - and then reconvened to be quorate.  This would have to be 
>> minuted.  The board has been silent on if this process was followed despite 
>> members asking the question.  Once again we face a situation where this 
>> organization is not answering legitimate questions from its members - and to 
>> me that is even more troublesome than the quorum issue.
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Furthermore - last I checked the board of directors page online had updated 
>> the chair and vice chair but was still showing the old directors listed as 
>> current - why has that not been updated to show the vacant seats accordingly
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Andrew 
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Get Outlook for iOS
>> 
>> From: Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss 
>> Sent: Wednesday, June 8, 2022 12:54:52 AM
>> To: Ish Sookun 
>> Cc: AFRINIC Community Discuss ; AfriNIC 
>> Discuss 
>> Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Congratulations to the new Chair & 
>> Vice-Chair of AFRINIC
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> How did the board hold a meeting given that they cannot field a quorum after 
>> the AGMM?
>> 
>> Owen
>> 
>> 
>> > On Jun 7, 2022, at 00:15 , Ish Sookun  wrote:
>> > 
>> > Dear Mr. Eshun & Dr. Omari,
>> > 
>> > I congratulate both of you for your appointment as Chairman and 
>> > Vice-Chairman of AFRINIC respectively.
>> > I wish you all the best and hope you will be able to navigate the 
>> > organisation through the rough waters.
>> > 
>> > I also thank SM for his time, guidance and leadership.
>> > 
>> > Regards,
>> > 
>> > ———
>> > 
>> > Ish Sookun
>> > 
>> > Systems Architect @ La Sentinelle Ltd
>> > 
>> > ___
>> > Community-Discuss mailing list
>> > Community-Discuss@afrinic.net
>> > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>> 
>> 
>> ___
>> 

Re: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Congratulations to the new Chair & Vice-Chair of AFRINIC

[Noah]

Andrew,

On Wed, 8 Jun 2022, 13:48 Andrew Alston, 
wrote:

> On the contrary Noah,
>
>
>
> No one is “throwing shade” – we are asking the board to confirm that the
> process was correctly followed. Which, considering the events of the AGMM
> and the blatant violations of the bylaws that occurred there – is a very
> fair question to ask.
>

I am certain the CEO and the board have read your fair questions and
without doubt they shall respond, however, the claims of lack of quorum by
some is what I was referring to in respect to the bylaws which I attempted
to explain and Mark Elkins did us a service to paste the said section for
the doubtful thomas's among us.

>
>
> And – if you dispute there were blatant violations of the bylaws in the
> context of the AGMM – Please, let me know – I will quote you chapter and
> verse as to exactly where they happened.
>

This is something else, so let us not mix things up.

Noah

>
>
> Andrew
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Noah 
> *Sent:* Wednesday, June 8, 2022 1:39 PM
> *To:* Mark Elkins 
> *Cc:* AFRINIC Community Discuss ; AfriNIC
> Discuss ; Owen DeLong 
> *Subject:* Re: [members-discuss] [Community-Discuss] Congratulations to
> the new Chair & Vice-Chair of AFRINIC
>
>
>
> Hi Mark
>
>
>
> This is exactly what I was educating someone on a separate thread on
> members list but it seems we are a point where throwing shades at the board
> at any chance some folks get, is a thing now.
>
>
>
> Noah
>
> On Wed, 8 Jun 2022, 13:16 Mark Elkins,  wrote:
>
> Just so that people are clear... Page 30 of the AfriNIC Bylaws image
> cut from the PDF.
>
> Thus if there are at least three Board Members, if one leaves the room -
> the last two can call a meeting, see that there is no quorum, send notice
> to the third, adjourn the meeting and then after at least 24 hours, conduct
> a meeting in quorum assuming then that there are at least three Board
> members. If this happens - it must be minuted.
>
> On 6/8/22 6:36 AM, Andrew Alston via Community-Discuss wrote:
>
> Hi Owen,
>
>
>
> Well - it depends.  If a non-quorate meeting was called and then adjourned
> for 24 hours and reconvened they would gain quorum under the bylaws.
>
>
>
> The question becomes - and this is where I am uncertain and believe it is
> open to debate - can a meeting be called knowing full well that quorum
> cannot be there and then adjourned for 24 hours to gain quorum - thereby
> deliberately exploiting a loophole.  It is one thing to call a meeting
> thinking you would have quorum - not getting it - adjourning for 24 hours
> and then gaining quorum after giving notice to the absent directors.  It is
> another thing entirely to call a meeting knowing full well quorum could not
> be met and having no one to give notice to.
>
>
>
> Either way at bare minimum a meeting would have had to be called -
> adjourned 24 hours - and then reconvened to be quorate.  This would have to
> be minuted.  The board has been silent on if this process was followed
> despite members asking the question.  Once again we face a situation where
> this organization is not answering legitimate questions from its members -
> and to me that is even more troublesome than the quorum issue.
>
>
>
> Furthermore - last I checked the board of directors page online had
> updated the chair and vice chair but was still showing the old directors
> listed as current - why has that not been updated to show the vacant seats
> accordingly
>
>
>
> Andrew
>
>
>
> Get Outlook for iOS 
> --
>
> *From:* Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss 
> 
> *Sent:* Wednesday, June 8, 2022 12:54:52 AM
> *To:* Ish Sookun  
> *Cc:* AFRINIC Community Discuss 
> ; AfriNIC Discuss
>  
> *Subject:* Re: [Community-Discuss] Congratulations to the new Chair &
> Vice-Chair of AFRINIC
>
>
>
> How did the board hold a meeting given that they cannot field a quorum
> after the AGMM?
>
> Owen
>
>
> > On Jun 7, 2022, at 00:15 , Ish Sookun 
>  wrote:
> >
> > Dear Mr. Eshun & Dr. Omari,
> >
> > I congratulate both of you for your appointment as Chairman and
> Vice-Chairman of AFRINIC respectively.
> > I wish you all the best and hope you will be able to navigate the
> organisation through the rough waters.
> >
> > I also thank SM for his time, guidance and leadership.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > ———
> >
> > Ish Sookun
> >
> > Systems Architect @ La Sentinelle Ltd
> >
> > ___
> > Community-Discuss mailing list
> > Community-Discuss@afrinic.net
> > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>
>
> ___
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss@afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>
>
>
> ___
>
> Community-Discuss mailing list
>
> Community-Discuss@afrinic.net
>
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>
> --
>
> Mark James ELKINS  -  Posix 

Re: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Congratulations to the new Chair & Vice-Chair of AFRINIC

[Andrew Alston via Community-Discuss]

On the contrary Noah,

No one is “throwing shade” – we are asking the board to confirm that the 
process was correctly followed. Which, considering the events of the AGMM and 
the blatant violations of the bylaws that occurred there – is a very fair 
question to ask.

And – if you dispute there were blatant violations of the bylaws in the context 
of the AGMM – Please, let me know – I will quote you chapter and verse as to 
exactly where they happened.

Andrew


From: Noah 
Sent: Wednesday, June 8, 2022 1:39 PM
To: Mark Elkins 
Cc: AFRINIC Community Discuss ; AfriNIC Discuss 
; Owen DeLong 
Subject: Re: [members-discuss] [Community-Discuss] Congratulations to the new 
Chair & Vice-Chair of AFRINIC

Hi Mark

This is exactly what I was educating someone on a separate thread on members 
list but it seems we are a point where throwing shades at the board at any 
chance some folks get, is a thing now.

Noah
On Wed, 8 Jun 2022, 13:16 Mark Elkins, 
mailto:m...@posix.co.za>> wrote:

Just so that people are clear... Page 30 of the AfriNIC Bylaws image cut 
from the PDF.

[cid:part1.994D76BD.619C6FA4@posix.co.za]

Thus if there are at least three Board Members, if one leaves the room - the 
last two can call a meeting, see that there is no quorum, send notice to the 
third, adjourn the meeting and then after at least 24 hours, conduct a meeting 
in quorum assuming then that there are at least three Board members. If this 
happens - it must be minuted.
On 6/8/22 6:36 AM, Andrew Alston via Community-Discuss wrote:
Hi Owen,

Well - it depends.  If a non-quorate meeting was called and then adjourned for 
24 hours and reconvened they would gain quorum under the bylaws.

The question becomes - and this is where I am uncertain and believe it is open 
to debate - can a meeting be called knowing full well that quorum cannot be 
there and then adjourned for 24 hours to gain quorum - thereby deliberately 
exploiting a loophole.  It is one thing to call a meeting thinking you would 
have quorum - not getting it - adjourning for 24 hours and then gaining quorum 
after giving notice to the absent directors.  It is another thing entirely to 
call a meeting knowing full well quorum could not be met and having no one to 
give notice to.

Either way at bare minimum a meeting would have had to be called - adjourned 24 
hours - and then reconvened to be quorate.  This would have to be minuted.  The 
board has been silent on if this process was followed despite members asking 
the question.  Once again we face a situation where this organization is not 
answering legitimate questions from its members - and to me that is even more 
troublesome than the quorum issue.

Furthermore - last I checked the board of directors page online had updated the 
chair and vice chair but was still showing the old directors listed as current 
- why has that not been updated to show the vacant seats accordingly

Andrew

Get Outlook for iOS

From: Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss 

Sent: Wednesday, June 8, 2022 12:54:52 AM
To: Ish Sookun 
Cc: AFRINIC Community Discuss 
; AfriNIC 
Discuss 
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Congratulations to the new Chair & Vice-Chair 
of AFRINIC

How did the board hold a meeting given that they cannot field a quorum after 
the AGMM?

Owen


> On Jun 7, 2022, at 00:15 , Ish Sookun 
>  wrote:
>
> Dear Mr. Eshun & Dr. Omari,
>
> I congratulate both of you for your appointment as Chairman and Vice-Chairman 
> of AFRINIC respectively.
> I wish you all the best and hope you will be able to navigate the 
> organisation through the rough waters.
>
> I also thank SM for his time, guidance and leadership.
>
> Regards,
>
> ———
>
> Ish Sookun
>
> Systems Architect @ La Sentinelle Ltd
>
> ___
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss@afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss


___
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___

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--

Mark James ELKINS  -  Posix Systems - (South) Africa
m...@posix.co.za   Tel: 
+27.826010496
For fast, reliable, low cost Internet in ZA: 

Re: [Community-Discuss] Congratulations to the new Chair & Vice-Chair of AFRINIC

[Noah]

Hi Mark

This is exactly what I was educating someone on a separate thread on
members list but it seems we are a point where throwing shades at the board
at any chance some folks get, is a thing now.

Noah

On Wed, 8 Jun 2022, 13:16 Mark Elkins,  wrote:

> Just so that people are clear... Page 30 of the AfriNIC Bylaws image
> cut from the PDF.
>
> Thus if there are at least three Board Members, if one leaves the room -
> the last two can call a meeting, see that there is no quorum, send notice
> to the third, adjourn the meeting and then after at least 24 hours, conduct
> a meeting in quorum assuming then that there are at least three Board
> members. If this happens - it must be minuted.
> On 6/8/22 6:36 AM, Andrew Alston via Community-Discuss wrote:
>
> Hi Owen,
>
> Well - it depends.  If a non-quorate meeting was called and then adjourned
> for 24 hours and reconvened they would gain quorum under the bylaws.
>
> The question becomes - and this is where I am uncertain and believe it is
> open to debate - can a meeting be called knowing full well that quorum
> cannot be there and then adjourned for 24 hours to gain quorum - thereby
> deliberately exploiting a loophole.  It is one thing to call a meeting
> thinking you would have quorum - not getting it - adjourning for 24 hours
> and then gaining quorum after giving notice to the absent directors.  It is
> another thing entirely to call a meeting knowing full well quorum could not
> be met and having no one to give notice to.
>
> Either way at bare minimum a meeting would have had to be called -
> adjourned 24 hours - and then reconvened to be quorate.  This would have to
> be minuted.  The board has been silent on if this process was followed
> despite members asking the question.  Once again we face a situation where
> this organization is not answering legitimate questions from its members -
> and to me that is even more troublesome than the quorum issue.
>
> Furthermore - last I checked the board of directors page online had
> updated the chair and vice chair but was still showing the old directors
> listed as current - why has that not been updated to show the vacant seats
> accordingly
>
> Andrew
>
> Get Outlook for iOS 
> --
> *From:* Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss 
> 
> *Sent:* Wednesday, June 8, 2022 12:54:52 AM
> *To:* Ish Sookun  
> *Cc:* AFRINIC Community Discuss 
> ; AfriNIC Discuss
>  
> *Subject:* Re: [Community-Discuss] Congratulations to the new Chair &
> Vice-Chair of AFRINIC
>
> How did the board hold a meeting given that they cannot field a quorum
> after the AGMM?
>
> Owen
>
>
> > On Jun 7, 2022, at 00:15 , Ish Sookun 
>  wrote:
> >
> > Dear Mr. Eshun & Dr. Omari,
> >
> > I congratulate both of you for your appointment as Chairman and
> Vice-Chairman of AFRINIC respectively.
> > I wish you all the best and hope you will be able to navigate the
> organisation through the rough waters.
> >
> > I also thank SM for his time, guidance and leadership.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > ———
> >
> > Ish Sookun
> >
> > Systems Architect @ La Sentinelle Ltd
> >
> > ___
> > Community-Discuss mailing list
> > Community-Discuss@afrinic.net
> > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>
>
> ___
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss@afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>
> ___
> Community-Discuss mailing 
> listCommunity-Discuss@afrinic.nethttps://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>
> --
>
> Mark James ELKINS  -  Posix Systems - (South) Africa
> m...@posix.co.za   Tel: +27.826010496 <+27826010496>
> For fast, reliable, low cost Internet in ZA: https://ftth.posix.co.za
>
> [image: Posix Systems][image: VCARD for MJ Elkins]
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>
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Re: [Community-Discuss] Congratulations to the new Chair & Vice-Chair of AFRINIC

[Mark Elkins]

Just so that people are clear... Page 30 of the AfriNIC Bylaws image 
cut from the PDF.


Thus if there are at least three Board Members, if one leaves the room - 
the last two can call a meeting, see that there is no quorum, send 
notice to the third, adjourn the meeting and then after at least 24 
hours, conduct a meeting in quorum assuming then that there are at least 
three Board members. If this happens - it must be minuted.


On 6/8/22 6:36 AM, Andrew Alston via Community-Discuss wrote:

Hi Owen,

Well - it depends.  If a non-quorate meeting was called and then 
adjourned for 24 hours and reconvened they would gain quorum under the 
bylaws.


The question becomes - and this is where I am uncertain and believe it 
is open to debate - can a meeting be called knowing full well that 
quorum cannot be there and then adjourned for 24 hours to gain quorum 
- thereby deliberately exploiting a loophole.  It is one thing to call 
a meeting thinking you would have quorum - not getting it - adjourning 
for 24 hours and then gaining quorum after giving notice to the absent 
directors.  It is another thing entirely to call a meeting knowing 
full well quorum could not be met and having no one to give notice to.


Either way at bare minimum a meeting would have had to be called - 
adjourned 24 hours - and then reconvened to be quorate.  This would 
have to be minuted.  The board has been silent on if this process was 
followed despite members asking the question.  Once again we face a 
situation where this organization is not answering legitimate 
questions from its members - and to me that is even more troublesome 
than the quorum issue.


Furthermore - last I checked the board of directors page online had 
updated the chair and vice chair but was still showing the old 
directors listed as current - why has that not been updated to show 
the vacant seats accordingly


Andrew

Get Outlook for iOS 

*From:* Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss 
*Sent:* Wednesday, June 8, 2022 12:54:52 AM
*To:* Ish Sookun 
*Cc:* AFRINIC Community Discuss ; 
AfriNIC Discuss 
*Subject:* Re: [Community-Discuss] Congratulations to the new Chair & 
Vice-Chair of AFRINIC
How did the board hold a meeting given that they cannot field a quorum 
after the AGMM?


Owen


> On Jun 7, 2022, at 00:15 , Ish Sookun  
wrote:

>
> Dear Mr. Eshun & Dr. Omari,
>
> I congratulate both of you for your appointment as Chairman and 
Vice-Chairman of AFRINIC respectively.
> I wish you all the best and hope you will be able to navigate the 
organisation through the rough waters.

>
> I also thank SM for his time, guidance and leadership.
>
> Regards,
>
> ———
>
> Ish Sookun
>
> Systems Architect @ La Sentinelle Ltd
>
> ___
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss@afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss 




___
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___
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--

Mark James ELKINS  -  Posix Systems - (South) Africa
m...@posix.co.za   Tel: +27.826010496 
For fast, reliable, low cost Internet in ZA: https://ftth.posix.co.za 



Posix SystemsVCARD for MJ Elkins

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