[Computer-go] AlphaGo and Perfect Play

[Cai Gengyang]

Does anyone here know how far AlphaGo is away from perfect play ?
Estimations ?

GengYang
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[Computer-go] Alphago and solving Go

[Cai Gengyang]

Is Alphago brute force search?
Is it possible to solve Go for 19x19 ?
And what does perfect play in Go look like?
How far are current top pros from perfect play?

Gengyang
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[Computer-go] DeepMind's Victory over Ke Jie

[Cai Gengyang]

Hi guys,

Just a couple of questions :

1) Is it true that DeepMind's comprehensive victory over Ke Jie means that
essentially it is proven to be true that AI has definitely triumphed over
humanity ?

2) Also, I read that AG's style is "conservative" -- i.e. it almost always
prefers the higher chance of winning by a small number of points compared
to the smaller chance of winning by a large number of points ?

Thanks alot

GengYang
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Re: [Computer-go] Computer-go Digest, Vol 72, Issue 41

[Cai Gengyang]

Hi all,

Just to introduce myself, I am a 5 dan amateur Go player from Singapore who
has recently taken an interest in computer Go, programming and AI and a
newbie to these forums. Been playing Go for many years (perhaps 20 years or
so and represented Singapore in the past, winning 3rd place at the World
Youth Amateur Go Tournament in Hawaii and 12th place at the World Amateur
Go Tournament in Japan) though I have not competed for many years. The
recent improvement in Go AI has rekindled my interest in this ancient game
and also artificial intelligence. I am genuinely fascinated that Go AI has
advanced so far --- when I first started out, the best Go AI was 30 kyu or
so and nobody believed that they could even defeat a strong amateur Go
player. Then came programs like ZenBS and CrazyStone , which surprised me
because I could only win perhaps 50% of the time against these programs.
The result of AlphaGo has shocked me to the core --- I don't know whether
to feel happy or sad. A sudden impending sense of doom --- that mankind has
been eclipsed. Just a few points I thought to raise here ...



Regarding the number of legal Go positions for a 19x19 board , it is ~2.082
x 10^170 (from the Sensei's website)
Number of legal positions

One number of interest for use in calculations of the number of possible
games is the number of legal position <http://senseis.xmp.net/?Position>s.
An upper bound of the number of positions on a 19x19 go board is not hard
to calculate. Every intersection can be either black, white, or empty, so
the number of possible positions is exactly 3^361, which is ~1.741 ×
10^172. For this bound, symmetry is not accounted.

However, many of these positions contain strings of stones without
liberties and therefore are not legal. The exact number of legal positions
has been calculated for square boards up to size 19×19 by Tromp
<http://senseis.xmp.net/?JohnTromp> and others[1
<http://senseis.xmp.net/?NumberOfPossibleGoGames#1>][2
<http://senseis.xmp.net/?NumberOfPossibleGoGames#2>].

Some numbers:

   - 9×9 board: ~1.039 × 10^38
   - 13×13 board: ~3.724 × 10^79
   - 17×17 board: ~1.908 × 10^137
   - 19×19 board: ~2.082 × 10^170 (i.e., a 2 followed by 170 zeroes)

For the 19×19 board, the number of legal positions is about 1.196% of the
possible positions[3 <http://senseis.xmp.net/?NumberOfPossibleGoGames#3>].

Regarding how significant the victory is , it is important to note that (no
disrespect intended) :

1) Fan Hui is no longer in his prime competitive Go playing games

2) Fan Hui is not a top tier professional Go player ( far from it )

3) There was no significant monetary incentive at stake

It will be interesting to see how the program fares against Lee Sedol ...
but then again Lee Sedol is no longer in his prime playing days , though
there is a million dollar prize incentive.

I think what they should do is pit the program against the reigning world
Go champion when he or she is in the prime Go playing days (late teens to
mid 20's)


Regards,

Cai Gengyang




On Mon, Feb 1, 2016 at 3:28 AM, <computer-go-requ...@computer-go.org> wrote:

> Send Computer-go mailing list submissions to
> computer-go@computer-go.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> computer-go-requ...@computer-go.org
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> computer-go-ow...@computer-go.org
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Computer-go digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>1. AlphaGo MCTS & Reinforcement Learning? (Greg Schmidt)
>2. Re: AlphaGo MCTS & Reinforcement Learning? (Álvaro Begué)
>3. Re: AlphaGo and the Standard Mistake in Research and
>   Journalism (John Tromp)
>4. Re: AlphaGo MCTS & Reinforcement Learning? (Petr Baudis)
>5. Re: AlphaGo and the Standard Mistake in Research and
>   Journalism (Robert Jasiek)
>6. Re: AlphaGo and the Standard Mistake in Research and
>   Journalism (John Tromp)
>7. Re: Mastering the Game of Go with Deep Neural Networks and
>   Tree Search (Peter Drake)
>
>
> --
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2016 15:20:16 + (UTC)
> From: Greg Schmidt <gschmidt...@yahoo.com>
> To: <computer-go@computer-go.org>
> Subject: [Computer-go] AlphaGo MCTS & Reinforcement Learning?
> Message-ID:
> <1189786442.2338592.1454253616372.javamail.ya...@mail.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> The articles I've read so far about AlphaGo mention both MCTS and
> RL/Q-Learning.  Since MCTS (and certainly UCT

Re: [Computer-go] Computer-go Digest, Vol 69, Issue 14

[Cai Gengyang]

I just defeated Hirabot12(2d) by resignation. This bot is not very strong,
prone to making huge calculation errors in life-and-death situations ..

Gengyang

On Thu, Oct 8, 2015 at 8:00 PM,  wrote:

> Send Computer-go mailing list submissions to
> computer-go@computer-go.org
>
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> http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
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>
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>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Computer-go digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>1. Re: KGS bot tournaments - what are your opinions? (Tobias Graf)
>
>
> --
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 13:10:29 +0200
> From: Tobias Graf 
> To: computer-go@computer-go.org
> Subject: Re: [Computer-go] KGS bot tournaments - what are your
> opinions?
> Message-ID: <56164f25.8010...@gmx.de>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"
>
> Hi,
> just my 2 cents:
>
> 1. "Reducing computing power." Just let me quote the standings of the
> last 9x9 tournament.
> 1) 18 Cores
> 2) 80 Cores
> 3) 12 Cores
> 4) 288 Cores
> 5) 8 Cores
>
> Moreover, using the 18 cores of place number one is affordable to
> everyone as Remi outlined.
>
> Still, i would compete in a few desktop-hardware-tournaments. It should
> just have reasonable limits, there is no point to make a tournament on
> raspberry pi's ;-) Maybe one of the slow-tournaments can be changed into
> a desktop-hardware tournament.
>
> 2) stefan kaitschick proposed to "force a minimum time consumption on
> the first moves of 9*9 games. It's annoying as a spectator to have the
> first 8 moves or so just spit out on the board, forcing you to go back
> to see what happened there."
> I don't like forcing too many things. But it is a very good idea, so i
> just added a one second book-delay to abakus. Maybe other authors find
> this useful, too.
>
> Best,
> Tobias
>
> On 10/07/2015 12:27 PM, Nick Wedd wrote:
> > I am thinking of making some small changes to the way I run bot
> > tournaments on KGS.  If you have ever taken part in a KGS bot
> > tournament, I would like to hear your opinions on three things.
> >
> >
> > 1.  Limit on processor power?
> >
> > This is the main point on which I want your opinions.  The other two
> > are trivial.
> >
> > Several people have suggested to me that these events would be fairer
> > if there were a limit on the computing power of the entrants. I would
> > like to do this, but I don't know how. I have little understanding of
> > the terminology, I don't know how /e.g./ multiple cores in one
> > computer compare with multiple computers on one network, and I don't
> > know how to count a graphics card. /If/ someone can find a way to
> > specify an upper limit to permitted power which is clear and easy to
> > understand, and /if/ most entrants would favor imposing such a limit,
> > I will discuss what it should be, and apply it.  I am not able to
> > check what entrants are really running on, but I will trust people.
> >
> >
> > 2. Zeroes in the "Annual Championship" table.
> >
> > The table at http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/annual/index.html has a 0 in
> > a cell where a program competed but did not score, and a blank where
> > it did not compete (at least it should do, I sometimes get it wrong).
> > I would prefer to omit these zeroes, they seem a bit rude. Also there
> > is no clear distinction between competing and not competing - how
> > should I treat a program which crashes and disappears after two
> > rounds, or one (like AyaMC last Sunday) which plays in every round but
> > is broken and has no chance of winning?  I realise that the zeroes
> > some convey information that may be of interest. Should I continue to
> > use them, or just leave those cells blank?
> >
> >
> > 3. Live crosstable
> >
> > When I write up my reports, I include a crosstable, like the one near
> > the top of http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/past/116/index.html .  This is
> > easy for me, I run a script which reads the data from the KGS page
> > (http://www.gokgs.com/tournEntrants.jsp?sort=s=990 in this case)
> > and builds the crosstable in html, which I copy into the tournament
> > report. It only works for Swiss (and maybe Round Robin) tournaments.
> > It works while the tournament is still running, though only between
> > rounds.I could build a current crosstable each round during a
> > tournament if there is any demand for it.
> >
> > --
> > Nick Wedd mapr...@gmail.com 
> >
> >
> > ___
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> > Computer-go@computer-go.org
> > 

[Computer-go] Building a Go AI Machine

[Cai Gengyang]

Hello Computer-Go members,


So I am back and ready to get started with building a Go AI Machine. I am
genuinely quite intrigued by the potential impact of AI on Go and also
other applications ... Where / How do i start learning how to build this?


Thanks a lot !

Gengyang
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Re: [Computer-go] Computer-go Digest, Vol 67, Issue 14

[Cai Gengyang]

Hi,

Is there a download link for the Michi --- Minimalistic Go MCTS Engine? I
would like to use it to learn how to build a Go engine ...

Gengyang

On Sat, Aug 22, 2015 at 8:00 PM, computer-go-requ...@computer-go.org
wrote:

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 Today's Topics:

1. Re: Building A Computer Go AI (robertfinkng...@o2.co.uk)
2. Re: Building A Computer Go AI (Andy)
3. Re: Building A Computer Go AI (David Doshay)


 --

 Message: 1
 Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 13:06:16 +0100
 From: robertfinkng...@o2.co.uk robertfinkng...@o2.co.uk
 To: computer-go@computer-go.org
 Subject: Re: [Computer-go] Building A Computer Go AI
 Message-ID: 55d71438.2080...@o2.co.uk
 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed

 Hi,

 Good news. There are a variety of open source projects out there,
 including both complete programs (Fuego, Pachi) as well as libraries to
 build your own Go engine (libEgo). There are also a wealth of papers
 explaining the theory behind the top algorithms. Try googling AMAF
 algorithm or RAVE algorithm or MCTS algorithm or TD Search
 algorithm as a starting point. There is a nice Thesis on Pachi too
 google Pachi Thesis.

 I hope this helps :-)

 Regards

 Raffles

 On 21-Aug-15 8:48, CaiGengYang wrote:
  Hello …
 
 
  I am a 3d~~5d go player from Singapore.
 
  Keen to learn how to build a powerful Computer Go AI to compete in the
 Computer Go Tournament and also for admissions to a Computer Science
 college program.
 
  Have very little programming experience except following some code
 examples on CodeAcademy … how do I start building a Computer Go AI ?
 
 
  Gengyang
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 08/21/15



 --

 Message: 2
 Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 09:22:45 -0500
 From: Andy andy.olsen...@gmail.com
 To: r...@ffles.com, computer-go computer-go@computer-go.org
 Subject: Re: [Computer-go] Building A Computer Go AI
 Message-ID:
 
 caatbd5dfpxmsnbhqh1v4m7s5-l0xzreud_kunr8i+wlzyek...@mail.gmail.com
 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

 Here is a simple working implementation.
 https://github.com/pasky/michi

 From the beginning of the readme:

 Michi --- Minimalistic Go MCTS Engine

 Michi aims to be a minimalistic but full-fledged Computer Go program based
 on state-of-art methods (Monte Carlo Tree Search) and written in Python.
 Our goal is to make it easier for new people to enter the domain of
 Computer Go, peek under the hood of a real playing engine and be able to
 learn by hassle-free experiments - with the algorithms, add heuristics,
 etc.

 The algorithm code size is 540 lines of code (without user interface,
 tables and empty lines / comments). Currently, it can often win against
 GNUGo on 9×9 on an old i3 notebook, be about even with GNUGo on 15×15 on a
 modern higher end computer and about two stones weaker on 19×19 (spending
 no more than 30s per move).

 This is not meant to be a competitive engine; simplicity and clear code is
 preferred over optimization (after all, it's in Python!). But compared to
 other minimalistic engines, this one should be able to beat beginner
 intermediate human players, and I believe that a *fast* implementation of
 exactly the same heuristics would be around 4k KGS or even better.

 Michi is distributed under the MIT licence. Now go forth, hack and peruse!





 On Fri, Aug 21, 2015 at 7:06 AM, robertfinkng...@o2.co.uk 
 robertfinkng...@o2.co.uk wrote:

  Hi,
 
  Good news. There are a variety of open source projects out there,
  including both complete programs (Fuego, Pachi) as well as libraries to
  build your own Go engine (libEgo). There are also a wealth of papers
  explaining the theory behind the top algorithms. Try googling AMAF
  algorithm or RAVE algorithm or MCTS algorithm or TD Search
 algorithm
  as a starting point. There is a nice Thesis on Pachi too google Pachi
  Thesis.
 
  I hope this helps :-)
 
  Regards
 
  Raffles
 
 
  On 21-Aug-15 8:48, CaiGengYang wrote:
 
  Hello …
 
 
  I am a 3d~~5d go player from Singapore.
 
  Keen to learn how to build a powerful Computer Go AI to compete in the
  Computer Go Tournament and also for admissions to a Computer Science