Re: [Computer-go] Different Rules

[Paweł Morawiecki]

Hideki,


>  An important difference from actual game is
> the search tree, which is very big in real, long-time setting
> game.  One possible interpretation is, Zen read in deep and
> found the (wrong) seki, which would lead W a sure win and so,
> played R18 toward this (again wrong!) winning position.
>
> Looks like DeepZenGo Team just missed a couple of months (weeks?) to train
stronger value network to be able to win the tournament. Michael Redmond 9p
said that DeepZen already plays at the top professional level, particularly
opening and middle game. Congratulations on today's well-deserved win
against Iyama!

When would be possible to buy a new DeepZen?

Regards,
Paweł




> Hideki
>
> Hideki Kato: <58d26196.6952%hideki_ka...@ybb.ne.jp>:
> >We have set komi to 5.5 today.  This looks worked fine.
> >
> >The strange yose moves were caused by unknown reason.  We are
> >seeking the cause(s).  Observed fact: The upper left center
> >three black stones cannot be captured but Zen looks evaluated
> >them as dead.  When Zen noticed the truth, horizen effect forced
> >several miserable moves in upper side white territory.  Then,
> >upper left white stones together with many short-liberty stones
> >forced the value network misrecognized them as
> >living by seki, because the shape looked seki (for VN) and many
> >moves were required to capture them in rollout.
> >
> >Hideki
> >
> >Pawe  Morawiecki:
> >:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> RATHER OFTEN the outcome was a score where both sides thought
> >>> to have won. In the 5.5/7.5 komi example from Go  this means that
> >>> outcomes with +6 or +7 points for Black on the board would occur
> >>> often.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>It looks like this issue is serious again was a factor in today's game
> >>against Park 9p. Zen was winning and in the endgame starts giving away
> >>points and the game was reversed.
> >>Hideki, was that the case?
> >>
> >>Too bad it's 6.5 komi as it seems Zen has potential to win both games :-(
> >>
> >>Regards,
> >>Pawel
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> Of course, this is not welcome for zero-sum games. But it is a hint
> >>> that in reallife scenarios (with non-zero-sum payoffs) Monte Carlo
> >>> heuristics (with their tendency to produce narrow wi0ns) might be
> >>> helpful in finding good compromises.
> >>>
> >>> Ingo.
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> >> inline file
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Re: [Computer-go] Different Rules

[Paweł Morawiecki]

>
>
> RATHER OFTEN the outcome was a score where both sides thought
> to have won. In the 5.5/7.5 komi example from Go  this means that
> outcomes with +6 or +7 points for Black on the board would occur
> often.
>
>
It looks like this issue is serious again was a factor in today's game
against Park 9p. Zen was winning and in the endgame starts giving away
points and the game was reversed.
Hideki, was that the case?

Too bad it's 6.5 komi as it seems Zen has potential to win both games :-(

Regards,
Paweł




> Of course, this is not welcome for zero-sum games. But it is a hint
> that in reallife scenarios (with non-zero-sum payoffs) Monte Carlo
> heuristics (with their tendency to produce narrow wi0ns) might be
> helpful in finding good compromises.
>
> Ingo.
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Re: [Computer-go] Zen lost to Mi Yu Ting

[Paweł Morawiecki]

Hideki,

 Using this for Japanese and 6.5, there will be some
>> error in close games.  We knew this issue and thought such
>> chances would be so small that postponed correcting (not so
>> easy).
>>
>
But how would you fix it? Isn't that you'd need to retrain your value
network from the scratch?

Regards,
Paweł


>
> Oh, so that's why! Good luck with Zen's next two games.
>
> Aja
>
>
>> Best,
>> Hideki
>>
>> Pawe  Morawiecki: > wsxoezykbheslprewci...@mail.gmail.com>:
>> >Hi,
>> >
>> >After an interesting game DeepZen lost to Mi Yu Ting.
>> >Here you can replay the complete game:
>> >http://duiyi.sina.com.cn/gibo_new/live/viewer.asp?sno=13
>> >
>> >According to pro experts, Zen fought really well, but it seems there is
>> >still some issue how Zen (mis)evaluates its chances. At one point it
>> showed
>> >84% chance of winning (in the endgame), whereas it was already quite
>> clear
>> >Zen is little behind (2-3 points).
>> >
>> >Regards,
>> >Pawel
>> > inline file
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>
>
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[Computer-go] Zen lost to Mi Yu Ting

[Paweł Morawiecki]

Hi,

After an interesting game DeepZen lost to Mi Yu Ting.
Here you can replay the complete game:
http://duiyi.sina.com.cn/gibo_new/live/viewer.asp?sno=13

According to pro experts, Zen fought really well, but it seems there is
still some issue how Zen (mis)evaluates its chances. At one point it showed
84% chance of winning (in the endgame), whereas it was already quite clear
Zen is little behind (2-3 points).

Regards,
Paweł
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Re: [Computer-go] Are the AlphaGols coming?

[Paweł Morawiecki]

>
>
> what makes you think the opening theory with reverse komi would be the
> same as with standard komi?
>
> The value network only needs to know a given position of the board and a
piece of information who plays next, whether it is a green player or a red
player. Then it tells you a winning percentage for a green player. Does it
make sense?

Best,
Paweł





> I would be afraid to invest an enormous amount of time just to learn,
> that you have to open differently in reverse komi games :)
>
>
> Detlef
>
> Am 05.01.2017 um 10:50 schrieb Paweł Morawiecki:
> > 2017-01-04 21:07 GMT+01:00 David Ongaro :
> >
> >>
> >> [...]So my question is: is it possible to have reverse Komi games
> >> by feeding the value network with reverse colors?
> >>
> >
> > In the paper from Nature (subsection "Features for policy/value
> > network"), authors state:
> >
> > *the stone colour at each intersection was represented as either
> > player or opponent rather than black or white. *
> >
> > Then, I think the AlphaGo algorithm would be fine with a reverse
> > komi. Namely, a human player takes black and has 7.5 komi. The next
> > step is that AlphaGo gives 2 stones of handicap but keeps 7.5 komi
> > (normally you have 0.5).
> >
> > Aja, can you confirm this?
> >
> >
> >> Also having 2 stone games is not so interesting since it would
> >> reveal less insights for even game opening Theory.
> >>
> >
> > I agree with David here, most insights we would get from even
> > games. But we can imagine the following show. Some games are played
> > with a reverse komi, some games would be played with 2 stones (yet,
> > white keeps 7.5 komi) and eventually the main event with normal
> > even games to debunk our myths on the game. Wouldn't be super
> > exciting!?
> >
> > Best regards, Paweł
> >
> >
> >
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Re: [Computer-go] Are the AlphaGols coming?

[Paweł Morawiecki]

2017-01-04 21:07 GMT+01:00 David Ongaro :

>
> [...]So my question is: is it possible to have reverse Komi games by
> feeding the value network with reverse colors?
>

In the paper from Nature (subsection "Features for policy/value network"),
authors state:

*the stone colour at each intersection was represented as either player or
opponent rather than black or white. *

Then, I think the AlphaGo algorithm would be fine with a reverse komi.
Namely, a human player takes black and has 7.5 komi. The next step is that
AlphaGo gives 2 stones of handicap but keeps 7.5 komi (normally you have
0.5).

Aja, can you confirm this?


> Also having 2 stone games is not so interesting since it would reveal less
> insights for even game opening Theory.
>

I agree with David here, most insights we would get from even games. But we
can imagine the following show. Some games are played with a reverse komi,
some games would be played with 2 stones (yet, white keeps 7.5 komi) and
eventually the main event with normal even games to debunk our myths on the
game. Wouldn't be super exciting!?

Best regards,
Paweł
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Re: [Computer-go] Are the AlphaGols coming?

[Paweł Morawiecki]

Ingo,


> So, do you want to say that "Master" might be AlphaGo?
> From the disucssion I thought that "Master" was a chinese bot.
>
> I'd put all my money it's AlphaGo. They were certified by Korean Baduk
Association, hence a Korean flag when playing on Tygem. My personal belief
is that these games
put talks with Chinese Association in a right perspective. All people from
DeepMind always show a great respect towards pro go players, their
dedication and achievements.

Demis tweeted: "*we've been hard at work improving AG, delighted to
announce that more games will be played in early 2017! More details soon". *

But it was 2 months ago. I guess it's been just very hard talks that's why
they are silent. It's hard (for both sides) and propose and accept quite a
handicapped games. Such a powerful show on Tygem/Foxwq, hopefully, makes
matters smoother.

Regards,
Paweł



> If Aja is reading: can you enlighten us?
>
> Cheers, Ingo.
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Re: [Computer-go] Are the AlphaGols coming?

[Paweł Morawiecki]

>
> Hi,
>


> The grey box shows the list of 30 games played by
> the "Master bot. All these games were won by the bot!
>
>
There have been another 8 games on Foxwq server:

Game 31: black2012 = Li Qincheng
Game 32: 星宿老仙 = Gu Li
Game 33: 星宿老仙 = Gu Li
Game 34: 我想静静了 = Dang Yifei
Game 35: 若水云寒 = Jiang Weijie
Game 36: 印城之霸 = Gu Zihao
Game 37: pyh = Park Yeonghun
Game 38: 天选 = Tuo Jiaxi
Totally, 38-0. It looks like a kind, indirect (yet powerful), message from
DeepMind to Chinese Go Association: "Please, let us try a real challenge,
like 3-handicap games, it does not really make much sense to play even
anymore". I think it would be much more exciting to see handicap games and
try to measure the difference between Alphago and the current human
knowledge and skills.

Best wishes for New Year,
Paweł




> Ingo.
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[Computer-go] "Google event match" in October?

[Paweł Morawiecki]

Dear Aja,

On the _official_ website of Korean Baduk Association, specifically on
their schedule (http://www.baduk.or.kr/info/schedule.asp), they announce
what is called "Google event match(es) in October. Looks like 3 matches, 3
rounds per match. Dates are as follows:

10/03 1st match 1st Round
10/04 1st match 2nd Round
10/17 1st match 3rd Round

10/18 2nd match 1st Round
10/24 2nd match 2nd Round
10/25 2nd match 3rd Round

10/31 3rd match 1st Round
11/01 3rd match 2nd Round
11/02 3rd match 3rd Round

Is it AlphaGo playing, perhaps with 3 players? Or it is just some event
(tournament) which is sponsored by Google?

Best regards,
Paweł
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Re: [Computer-go] Crazystone on Steam

[Paweł Morawiecki]

2016-05-27 22:10 GMT+02:00 daniel rich :

> Anyone have any idea how well crazy stone does in Wine? Or if Mac/Linux
> support will happen?
>

On Mac it works pretty well with Crossover 15 (https://www.codeweavers.com)
Not everything is displayed properly (buttons are black) but you can play
and basically you have access to every option.

Cheers,
Paweł



>
>
>
> On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 1:23 PM, Marc Landgraf 
> wrote:
>
>> Oh, this is great.
>> But one question: Will there be any updates/upgrades/patches for client
>> and/or engine?
>> Having it on Steam would finally give a convenient way to do so. This
>> would be a reason for me to buy it, hoping for it to change for the better.
>> Or will it just be a one release policy? Can't see myself spending 74euro
>> then, considering the mixed reviews in various places.
>> Am 27.05.2016 21:09 schrieb "Jim O'Flaherty" > >:
>>
>>> Tysvm! The video on Stream is a very nice touch. And the first review
>>> rocks!
>>>
>>> On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 1:36 PM, Andreas Persson 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Congrats on the Steam release of Crazystone Rémi! Hope it will sell
 well. For people that haven't seen it here is a link
 http://store.steampowered.com/app/479330/. Bit to pricey for me but
 will pick it up at some point, enjoy the ios app a lot.

 /Andreas

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Re: [Computer-go] Hajin Lee will play a live commented game against CrazyStone

[Paweł Morawiecki]

Hi,


> It's fun to hear the pro making comments as she goes. I had hoped for a
> better game, though.
> Any comments from the CS camp?
>
> I'm not from CrazyStone Team but a happy user of CS Deep Learning.

I analyzed the game (30 000 playouts per move) with the version
commercially available and it got everything right. I mean every move Hajin
Lee questioned was also questioned by CrazyStone running on my PC. It
includes:

- questionable attachment in the first joseki they played
- hane in upper-left corner
- and finally a blunder at b3 (loosing move) and selection of this joseki
as well

Remi said that he's been working hard to improve CS over the last week, but
it looks like something went wrong and instead he got clearly a weaker
program. Particularly this B3 is really strange, where right after this
white catches everything with one move. Remi, what went wrong?

Cheers,
Paweł






> Thanks,
> Álvaro.
>
>
>
> On Mon, May 16, 2016 at 3:58 AM, Xavier Combelle <
> xavier.combe...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> That's fantastic
>>
>> I suppose crazystone will play with crazystone account, but what will be
>> her handle ?
>>
>> 2016-05-16 9:50 GMT+02:00 Rémi Coulom :
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I am very happy to announce that Hajin Lee will play a live commented
>>> game against Crazy Stone on Sunday, at 8PM Korean time. The game will take
>>> place on KGS, and she will make live comments on her youtube channel.
>>>
>>> Haylee's youtube:
>>> https://www.youtube.com/c/HayleesWorldofGoBaduk
>>>
>>> Rémi
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[Computer-go] Lee Sedol's reviews on AlphaGo games

[Paweł Morawiecki]

Hi,

Here are some thoughts (translated into English), given by Lee Sedol on all
five matches: http://badukinkorea.tumblr.com

Dear Aja/Deepmind, would we see something similar from your point of view?
It's been a month since the match, i think many people really waiting for
any news/plans for AlphaGo. Unfortunately, nothing has been given :-(

Kind regards,
Paweł
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Re: [Computer-go] UEC cup 2nd day

[Paweł Morawiecki]

Hi,

>
> Final result
> 1st Zen
> 2nd darkforest
> 3rd CrazyStone
> 4th Aya
>
>
Are there any games available? (SGFs)?

Regards,
Paweł



>
> - Original Message - From: ""Ingo Althöfer"" <3-hirn-ver...@gmx.de
> >
> To: 
> Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2016 4:04 PM
> Subject: Re: [Computer-go] UEC cup 2nd day
>
>
>
> Hi Hiroshi,
>>
>> thanks for the many updates.
>>
>> On another site I read that the bits on rank 1 and 2 will
>> play exhibition matches against a pro player on Wednesday.
>>
>> Will those games be transmitted on KGS?
>> Has it been decided alreay which handicap?
>>
>> Thanks in advance, Ingo.
>>
>>
>> Gesendet: Sonntag, 20. März 2016 um 07:41 Uhr
>>> Von: "Hiroshi Yamashita" 
>>> An: computer-go@computer-go.org
>>> Betreff: Re: [Computer-go] UEC cup 2nd day
>>>
>>> Zen won against darkforest
>>>
>>> 1st Zen
>>> 2nd darkforest
>>> 3rd CrazyStone
>>> 4th Aya
>>>
>>> Hiroshi Yamashita
>>>
>>>
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[Computer-go] Darkforest (Facebook) AI estimating

[Paweł Morawiecki]

Hi,

It looks like this http://zhuanlan.zhihu.com/yuandong/20639694
is an analysis of Facebook AI of Game 1 and 2.

I just looked at it very briefly but, interestingly, in Game 2 Darkforest
agrees with pro commentators who said that Lee Sedol #70 (S15) was slow and
it would be better to chase black's group in the centre. Indeed Darkforest
suggested F10.

Details:http://www.yuandong-tian.com/win_rate2.txt

Regards,
Pawel
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