Re: [computer-go] Bobby Fischer

[Vincent Diepeveen]

Don,

When i play or analyze with a world top player, like top 10 of world,
and i do not get that chance a lot in my life, then i can really  
assure you,

from a social viewpoint seen, maybe YOU are far better than any of the
Russians i've ever played.

But from technical chess viewpoint seen: Opening, Middlegame, Endgame
and strategically and from accuracy viewpoint, they're a different  
type of level.


The average nerd here will not be able to imagine this. They're *so*  
much better.


A few months ago i had the honour of playing someone from India from  
the highest caste;
I concluded that he was better in every respect than me: Strategical,  
Tactical, Opening,

Memory (he remembered way way more), not to mention endgame.

Todays world top players, regardless whether you speak of a 9 dan go,
or the highest rated chessplayers, they are a league on their own,
where as a human race we can be only proud of having them.

Now it is because the games have a limited size of board and limited  
set of rules that

define the play, that with software we can or will beat them.

Yet you must realize very well that a strong chessplayer is also a  
strong go player
and that a strong go player is a strong chessplayer. Note this is NOT  
the case for checkers.


Go and chess are both SYMMETRIC games. Strategy and tactics are similar.
The indirect manner to win at chess and go is the same. In go it is  
also the endgoal: maximizing

your influence levels, in chess that's similar to maximizing mobility.

In 10x10 international checkers, the toughest and most widely played  
variation of the game,
not to confuse with the simplistic and nearly dead analyzed 8x8  
checkers, those checkers games
are asymmetric type of games. You cannot make a move to any part of  
the board, unlike with chess/go,
you can only move forward and never go back. That asymmetric nature  
of the game really is of overwhelming

importance. It totally changes the nature of the game.
Typically world champion level 10x10 checkers players are very poor  
chess players, 1600-1800 rated most are.

That's not even enough to play in national competition here.

My club has 4 teams (which is a lot) in national competition. Not a  
single of the titled checkers players are strong enough
to play there. On the other hand if a professional go player would  
knock on my door right now: "heh i'm 5 dan professional go,
i like to play some chess this season", i would directly call the  
federation: "heh we have a new player for our second team".


Within 1 day after learning the basic rules he/she can already play  
easily in first division. If you realize that this is just 1 grade  
underneath the
professional division (masterclass) and that there is 2 more grades  
(second class and third class) where we also have 2 teams,

you'll realize the huge difference.

Firstclass is 2100 - 2350+ , a few GM's (Jan Timman) and a few IM's  
play there as well.


If you want to know how strong a pro is, play him for money.

I know the double sides effect of the above statement, in chess the  
big problem

with those chess programs/computers has always
been that people got paid to lose.

This because most sponsors of matches always had more interest in  
winning a match than a fair competition,
or they set up the matches wrong. It is cheaper to hire a  
professional player for a lumpsum fee, as he doesn't need
to achieve a thing then and he can relax and do his best next day  
when playing in an all GM tournament.


The few matches we had where GM's got paid a lot more when winning,  
the computer has never ever in history won those
matches. Kramnik demanded 1 million dollar from a sheikh 'advance  
payment', Hydra team paid a lumpsum, Kasparov played
such beginners level against deep blue in the second match, just like  
he did do in the first match (which was enough to
win) about elo 2100 he played, that even today i'm not sure why.  
There is 2 different statements that reached me.
Several Russian GM's (some living in the west) swore to me that he  
has betted millions at the computer (could get good odds),
some other official who was there also during the match at the side  
of the Kasparov team (whose name i won't reveal,
as i forgot who it was), told me clearly there was a 'contractual'  
issue.


Personal i tend to believe the last explanation more than the first,  
deep blue was so outdated by 1997 from algorithmic
and evaluation viewpoint, that under no condition could they have  
played another match without looking like total beginners

compared to the PC-software programs.

They searched 10-12 ply with the thing, as logfiles also prove  
clearly. 2 years later, in the open hardware world championships
1999, the quad xeons (400-500Mhz) searched 14-17 ply handsdown and a  
lot more than that in endgame. I reached myself

at a quad xeon 20+ ply there in endgames where deep blue got 12.

Not a single of all those matches ever has been objective. Human  
players have

Re: [computer-go] Bobby Fischer

[Don Dailey]

I think people forget how many levels of skill there are.  I think I
share this experience with many others,  but the first time I
encountered serious chess players at a chess club, I expected to "clean
up" because I always beat casual players I might play.  I simply came to
think I was good when I wasn't.  

I got humbled pretty quickly.  I went from thinking I was quite good to
realizing I was one of the worst players in the club.I worked my way
up to being one of the better players in the club, but realized I still
sucked because the club itself was composed mostly of "mediocre" players
(we had 1 master who rarely showed up and a couple of 1900+ players and
then lots of 1400-1700 players.)  

There is a seemingly unlimited number of players better than you, no
matter how strong you get unless you are truly one of the elite.  

- Don



On Thu, 2008-09-11 at 15:43 +0200, Magnus Persson wrote:
> I know a 4-Dan player who told a story that goes something like this:  
> He and his friends who were all very strong chess players at the time,  
> discovered the rules of go and played a bunch of games against each  
> other until they thought they mastered it. Later they met a player who  
> gave them a 9-stone handicap and beat them easily. They were shocked  
> and told him he must be a master player but he just replied: "No I am  
> just a beginner".
> 
> -Magnus
> 
> Quoting Mark Boon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> 
> > On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 8:53 AM, Adrian Grajdeanu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> I read that story in a book, just after Bobby Fisher's death. Don't 
> >> remember
> >> all details, save that he was astonished he got beaten.
> >> Adrian
> >
> > Hehe. After I learned the game (from a book, playing with my father
> > who brought a set from Japan for my birthday) I was also astonished to
> > be beaten by the first other person I met that knew the game. And he
> > gave me 9 stones handicap! But rather than putting me off it made me
> > even more intrigued by the game. Now I know this person was probably
> > not even 15 kyu.
> >
> > Mark
> > ___
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> > computer-go@computer-go.org
> > http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
> >
> 
> 
> 

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Re: [computer-go] Bobby Fischer

[steve uurtamo]

i thought that story was about lasker.

s.


On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 9:43 AM, Magnus Persson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I know a 4-Dan player who told a story that goes something like this: He and
> his friends who were all very strong chess players at the time, discovered
> the rules of go and played a bunch of games against each other until they
> thought they mastered it. Later they met a player who gave them a 9-stone
> handicap and beat them easily. They were shocked and told him he must be a
> master player but he just replied: "No I am just a beginner".
>
> -Magnus
>
> Quoting Mark Boon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
>> On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 8:53 AM, Adrian Grajdeanu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I read that story in a book, just after Bobby Fisher's death. Don't
>>> remember
>>> all details, save that he was astonished he got beaten.
>>> Adrian
>>
>> Hehe. After I learned the game (from a book, playing with my father
>> who brought a set from Japan for my birthday) I was also astonished to
>> be beaten by the first other person I met that knew the game. And he
>> gave me 9 stones handicap! But rather than putting me off it made me
>> even more intrigued by the game. Now I know this person was probably
>> not even 15 kyu.
>>
>> Mark
>> ___
>> computer-go mailing list
>> computer-go@computer-go.org
>> http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Magnus Persson
> Berlin, Germany
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>
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Re: [computer-go] Bobby Fischer

[Magnus Persson]

I know a 4-Dan player who told a story that goes something like this:  
He and his friends who were all very strong chess players at the time,  
discovered the rules of go and played a bunch of games against each  
other until they thought they mastered it. Later they met a player who  
gave them a 9-stone handicap and beat them easily. They were shocked  
and told him he must be a master player but he just replied: "No I am  
just a beginner".


-Magnus

Quoting Mark Boon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:


On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 8:53 AM, Adrian Grajdeanu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

I read that story in a book, just after Bobby Fisher's death. Don't remember
all details, save that he was astonished he got beaten.
Adrian


Hehe. After I learned the game (from a book, playing with my father
who brought a set from Japan for my birthday) I was also astonished to
be beaten by the first other person I met that knew the game. And he
gave me 9 stones handicap! But rather than putting me off it made me
even more intrigued by the game. Now I know this person was probably
not even 15 kyu.

Mark
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--
Magnus Persson
Berlin, Germany
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Re: [computer-go] Bobby Fischer

[Ian Preston]

yep that's the one. GB Preston. :-) I didn't know that article existed!
Thanks!

On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 1:04 PM, Andrés Domínguez <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:

> 2008/9/11 Ian Preston <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> > My grandpa, Gordon Preston, used to play go and chess with Alan Turing
> every
> > day while they were at Bletchley Park. They had 8 hours of sleep and 8
> hours
> > of work each day, leaving 8 hours with little else to do apart from chess
> > and go. :-)
>
> ¿Gordon Bamford Preston? Very interesting.
>
> With little search:
> "With Turing I spent uncountable hours playing Go, as also with David
> Rees."
>
> http://www-groups.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/Biographies/Preston.html
>
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Re: [computer-go] Bobby Fischer

[Don Dailey]

On Thu, 2008-09-11 at 07:53 -0400, Adrian Grajdeanu wrote:
> I read that story in a book, just after Bobby Fisher's death. Don't 
> remember all details, save that he was astonished he got beaten.

I also remember that he didn't know the rules - he just learned them to
play this game and his opponent was a weak Go player and he thought he
would easily win.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure this was a first-hand account and I'm looking
for a reference on the web.It's almost impossible to find such a
thing with keywords like "go" and "Bobby Fischer" as there is so much
about his chess.   I cannot think of any keywords that narrow this down
effectively.   But I think I originally saw it on the web.

- Don


> Adrian
> 
> Don Dailey wrote:
> > Does anyone remember an anecdote about Bobby Fischer learning to play
> > go?   I don't remember the details but I'm trying to find a reference to
> > this.
> > 
> > I remember in this "story" that Bobby learned the rules, played a game
> > and was beaten but that he expected to be a good player immediately
> > based on his chess skill.
> > 
> > - Don
> > 
> > 
> > ___
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> > computer-go@computer-go.org
> > http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
> > 
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Re: [computer-go] Bobby Fischer

[Andrés Domínguez]

2008/9/11 Ian Preston <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> My grandpa, Gordon Preston, used to play go and chess with Alan Turing every
> day while they were at Bletchley Park. They had 8 hours of sleep and 8 hours
> of work each day, leaving 8 hours with little else to do apart from chess
> and go. :-)

¿Gordon Bamford Preston? Very interesting.

With little search:
"With Turing I spent uncountable hours playing Go, as also with David Rees."

http://www-groups.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/Biographies/Preston.html
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Re: [computer-go] Bobby Fischer

[Mark Boon]

On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 8:53 AM, Adrian Grajdeanu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I read that story in a book, just after Bobby Fisher's death. Don't remember
> all details, save that he was astonished he got beaten.
> Adrian

Hehe. After I learned the game (from a book, playing with my father
who brought a set from Japan for my birthday) I was also astonished to
be beaten by the first other person I met that knew the game. And he
gave me 9 stones handicap! But rather than putting me off it made me
even more intrigued by the game. Now I know this person was probably
not even 15 kyu.

Mark
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Re: [computer-go] Bobby Fischer

[Adrian Grajdeanu]

I read that story in a book, just after Bobby Fisher's death. Don't 
remember all details, save that he was astonished he got beaten.

Adrian

Don Dailey wrote:

Does anyone remember an anecdote about Bobby Fischer learning to play
go?   I don't remember the details but I'm trying to find a reference to
this.

I remember in this "story" that Bobby learned the rules, played a game
and was beaten but that he expected to be a good player immediately
based on his chess skill.

- Don


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Re: [computer-go] Bobby Fischer

[Ian Preston]

My grandpa, Gordon Preston, used to play go and chess with Alan Turing every
day while they were at Bletchley Park. They had 8 hours of sleep and 8 hours
of work each day, leaving 8 hours with little else to do apart from chess
and go. :-)



On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 11:12 AM, Mark Boon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:

> I have never heard such a story. That doesn't mean it's not true of course
> :)
>
> Did you know Alan Turing played Go and was most likely the first Go
> pogrammer in history? Not that I think he ever tried to write a
> playing program, but I believe I read he was the first to contemplate
> what it would take for a computer to play Go.
>
>Mark
>
> On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 9:54 PM, Don Dailey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Does anyone remember an anecdote about Bobby Fischer learning to play
> > go?   I don't remember the details but I'm trying to find a reference to
> > this.
> >
> > I remember in this "story" that Bobby learned the rules, played a game
> > and was beaten but that he expected to be a good player immediately
> > based on his chess skill.
> >
> > - Don
> >
> >
> > ___
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> > computer-go@computer-go.org
> > http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
> >
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Re: [computer-go] Bobby Fischer

[Mark Boon]

I have never heard such a story. That doesn't mean it's not true of course :)

Did you know Alan Turing played Go and was most likely the first Go
pogrammer in history? Not that I think he ever tried to write a
playing program, but I believe I read he was the first to contemplate
what it would take for a computer to play Go.

Mark

On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 9:54 PM, Don Dailey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Does anyone remember an anecdote about Bobby Fischer learning to play
> go?   I don't remember the details but I'm trying to find a reference to
> this.
>
> I remember in this "story" that Bobby learned the rules, played a game
> and was beaten but that he expected to be a good player immediately
> based on his chess skill.
>
> - Don
>
>
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>
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[computer-go] Bobby Fischer

[Don Dailey]

Does anyone remember an anecdote about Bobby Fischer learning to play
go?   I don't remember the details but I'm trying to find a reference to
this.

I remember in this "story" that Bobby learned the rules, played a game
and was beaten but that he expected to be a good player immediately
based on his chess skill.

- Don


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