Re: [CGUYS] Voting Perfection

[Alvin Auerbach]

We use words in our thoughts and propagandists like to give us the  
wrong words so that we will think the wrong thoughts.


They repeatedly use the word "Democracy" to describe our form of  
government, and we all follow along and use "Democracy" also. The word  
"Democracy" makes us think that we have a say in the way things are  
run in our nation.


However, the form of government of the USA has never been a  
"Democracy". Our current form of government, instituted with the  
ratification of our Constitution, is a "Republic". This means that we  
have NO say in the way things are run. It means that every two years  
we are given the Appearance of an opportunity to choose between  
tweedledum and tweedledee to "Represent" us, and that often (as we've  
discussed here) the mechanism of the choice is such that we don't  
actually have that small choice! After the "Election" of the  
"Representatives" the tweedledums and tweedledees meet and decide  
which of their several paymasters they will follow. They then declare  
what the ordinary citizen must do and shall not do, and then further  
declare that once again, "Democracy" has triumphed!


Those who are paymasters can call the tweedledums and tweedledees and  
say "Let's have lunch tomorrow and I'll tell you what I'd like to see  
happen with issue "X". These paymasters, and the tweedledums and  
tweedledees, are known as "Republican party members" and "Democratic   
party members". Any person who is not a paymaster or a tweedledum or a  
tweedledee, is not a member of those Political Parties. They may think  
that they are a member (and they are encouraged to so think!), but  
they are not.


Alvin


On Jan 10, 2008, at 12:43 AM, db wrote:

And, we've spent how many billions of dollars (supposedly) to bring  
democracy to Iraq?  Why can't the federal government spend just a  
tiny fraction of that money to bring a single, standard voting  
system to our own country?



Because the big entrenched special interest groups have worked for  
more than a century to be able to influence the government (and  
elections).  Why would these interests care about more efficient  
voting machines?... when they already get their way with the  
candidates.  Like a fish needs a bicycle!
The candidates don't care (except for Gore maybe... who got caught  
in the wrong place at the wrong time...)  because they know where  
their bread is buttered and it's not really in the ballot boxes.


Billions of dollars to bring democracy to Iraq?   If you believe  
that I have a bridge to sell you!! Think quick ticket to political  
support for a going nowhere administration, arms sales, Oil, Oil,  
Oil and the Straits of Hormuz.


All these apparent non-sequitor affronts to our democratic  
sensibilities ... like the voting machine boondoggles ... aren't  
really mysteries or illogical if you think about them within the  
right frame of reference.   And, in my opinion, it's not our simple  
folk motives or benefits that you need to be factoring in if you  
want to really understand how our "democracy" is working and why  


What, me a cynic??

db

Michael Fernando wrote:

... they print a "zero tape at the beginning of the voting day and
then a "final tally" tape at the end. And the vote counts have to
match meters on the front of the machines ...



This is the answer I got from my polling place in Montgomery county,
MD in 2004.  Sure, if the number of total votes recorded by the
machines match the number of voters who walked in, that simply
means there hasn't been an electronic equivalent of ballot box
stuffing.

That does _not_ mean that those black box voting machines didn't
incorrectly recorded voters' choices.  And, there's no way to
audit that fact without voters' choices being recorded in a medium
that could be hand counted (ie: voter verified paper records).
If they can't re-count without using the same (suspected) machines,
then I don't trust that system.




While I have my own doubts about the programming of the machines,
I think that the actual vote count is relatively secure.



Why should we believe the election officials or the black box
manufacturers that the count is accurate?  The officials can test
the machines before the election day for various scenarios.  The
manufacturer can have various internal quality testing.  Yet, it
only takes one not-so-honest programmer to do something like the
following to skew the tallies on the election day.

 if (today = election_day)  #easy to predict in the US
 if ( 8am < time < 5pm)
 magik_min = RANDOM_NUMBER (3 to 53)
 if ( magik_min < time_minutes < magik_min+4 )
 do { display voter's selection
  screw the voter and add votes to Party_X
 }
 end-if
 end-if
 end-if


The election officials won't catch this in their testing before
the election day.  How do we know the manufacturer's QA is
good enough?  If the HW are standard components and the sof

Re: [CGUYS] Voting Perfection

[db]

And, we've spent how many billions of dollars (supposedly) to bring democracy 
to Iraq?  Why can't the federal government spend just a tiny fraction of that 
money to bring a single, standard voting system to our own country?

  
Because the big entrenched special interest groups have worked for more 
than a century to be able to influence the government (and elections).  
Why would these interests care about more efficient voting machines?... 
when they already get their way with the candidates.  Like a fish needs 
a bicycle! 

The candidates don't care (except for Gore maybe... who got caught in 
the wrong place at the wrong time...)  because they know where their 
bread is buttered and it's not really in the ballot boxes.


Billions of dollars to bring democracy to Iraq?   If you believe that I 
have a bridge to sell you!! Think quick ticket to political support for 
a going nowhere administration, arms sales, Oil, Oil, Oil and the 
Straits of Hormuz.


All these apparent non-sequitor affronts to our democratic sensibilities 
... like the voting machine boondoggles ... aren't really mysteries or 
illogical if you think about them within the right frame of reference.   
And, in my opinion, it's not our simple folk motives or benefits that 
you need to be factoring in if you want to really understand how our 
"democracy" is working and why  


What, me a cynic??

db

Michael Fernando wrote:

... they print a "zero tape at the beginning of the voting day and
then a "final tally" tape at the end. And the vote counts have to
match meters on the front of the machines ...



This is the answer I got from my polling place in Montgomery county,
MD in 2004.  Sure, if the number of total votes recorded by the
machines match the number of voters who walked in, that simply
means there hasn't been an electronic equivalent of ballot box
stuffing.

That does _not_ mean that those black box voting machines didn't
incorrectly recorded voters' choices.  And, there's no way to
audit that fact without voters' choices being recorded in a medium
that could be hand counted (ie: voter verified paper records).
If they can't re-count without using the same (suspected) machines,
then I don't trust that system.


  

While I have my own doubts about the programming of the machines,
I think that the actual vote count is relatively secure.



Why should we believe the election officials or the black box
manufacturers that the count is accurate?  The officials can test
the machines before the election day for various scenarios.  The
manufacturer can have various internal quality testing.  Yet, it
only takes one not-so-honest programmer to do something like the
following to skew the tallies on the election day.

  if (today = election_day)  #easy to predict in the US
  if ( 8am < time < 5pm)
  magik_min = RANDOM_NUMBER (3 to 53)
  if ( magik_min < time_minutes < magik_min+4 )
  do { display voter's selection
   screw the voter and add votes to Party_X
  }
  end-if
  end-if
  end-if


The election officials won't catch this in their testing before
the election day.  How do we know the manufacturer's QA is
good enough?  If the HW are standard components and the software
is open, then others can do code audits.

Moreover, who knows if there are bugs that get triggered by a
specific sequence of events (ie: insert card; remove card; insert
card; touch screen; remove card; insert card; vote for the first
office; remove card; (ie: voting not completed) next person insert
card ... bug got triggered and the internal counters got totally
messed up)  If the machine is a sealed black box, how do we know
there's no bug like that?  Or even more weird ones?  If the software
is open, then code audits might catch it and the bug could be fixed.


  

There has been much made about voter fraud and draconian identity
schemes imposed to prevent it, but I think the problem posed by
hacked voting machine software is orders of magnitude more serious
and has been paid little or no attention (the denials of the
machine vendors notwithstanding).



A well thought-out process would require election officials to reset
the machines (wipe their programs clean) and install the latest
software just before the election begins.  Of course, proprietary
machine manufacturers would object to election officials being able
to have access to the internals.


As others have pointed out, punch card machines or optical scanners
would make much better, simple yet effective, mechanized voting
systems.  However, the counting part of even those systems could be
influenced just as above.  So, their codes must also be audited.
Moreover, the election results should be randomly audited against
the paper records to make sure nothing funny actually happened.
Just having the paper records is not sufficient.
And, we've spent how many billions of dollars (supposedly) to bring democracy 
to Iraq?  Why

Re: [CGUYS] Transferring video from DVD into iMovie

[Michael Lewis]

David Turk sez:

>I have some video clips on a DVD I'd like to get into iMovie, but
>Importing doesn't seem to work.  Any thoughts?  tia.
>
>   david


iMovie will import many video file types, but not the VOB files that
make up DVD movies. (Licensing issues, I believe.) You'll need to first
convert the DVD using another tool. I've used the following:

Handbrake: Free, open-source, but not necessarily easy to use (there
have been changes to the current version 0.9.1 since the v0.8.5 I have
used, so the interface may be better now, if still a bit techie)


Roxio's Popcorn: Costs $49.99, but has a fairly intuitive interface and
can be used for a lot more conversion duties easily


Remember that DVD video is compressed from the original. So when you
convert it and then edit it, if you then put it back on a DVD it'll be
compressed again and may lose quality further.

-- 
Michael Lewis
Off Balance Productions
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.offbalance.com



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Re: [CGUYS] USB Audio Interface

[Richard P.]

Yes, went right to it and it loaded immediately.

Richard P.

Steve at Verizon wrote:
Can you get to the highcriteria.com website? Every browser I have 
returns an OpenDNS site not loading message.


rlsimon wrote:
Total Recorder has a neat feature...It will record in virtually any 
format

and with complete customization and editing features ANYTHING that plays
through your speakers ...it's entirely software and no wires or folderol
...captures streams, anything at all ...very good thing!  Trial 
version so

you can see how it goes... http://www.highcriteria.com/

-Original Message-
From: Richard P. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 
08, 2008 12:39 PM

Subject: Re: USB Audio Interface


FYI, I managed a work-a-round for the problem on not getting audio 
through the computer speakers while recording a cassette through the 
Behringer UCA202 USB interface. I had to run a separate pair of 
speakers out of the headphone port on the UCA202 in order to get 
external audio. Apparently the computer speaker muting is either 
intentional to prevent feedback or a conflict between the interface 
and/or the computer/Audacity program. I haven't found any 
documentation yet to support this but it doesn't matter at this point.


Richard P.

Re: [CGUYS] USB Audio Interface


Behringer UCA202. It's a great unit but I just think that my
computer or the Audacity program is muting my speakers while the
interface is connected. The UCA202 does allow monitoring through
headphones so that will work. I will try your suggestions along 
the way.



As I posted earlier, my USB audio interface also creates a few 
strange things with at least one of my audio recording apps.


  Steve



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Re: [CGUYS] USB Audio Interface

[Steve at Verizon]

Can you get to the highcriteria.com website? Every browser I have 
returns an OpenDNS site not loading message.


rlsimon wrote:

Total Recorder has a neat feature...It will record in virtually any format
and with complete customization and editing features ANYTHING that plays
through your speakers ...it's entirely software and no wires or folderol
...captures streams, anything at all ...very good thing!  Trial version so
you can see how it goes... http://www.highcriteria.com/

-Original Message-
From: Richard P. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 12:39 PM

Subject: Re: USB Audio Interface


FYI, I managed a work-a-round for the problem on not getting audio 
through the computer speakers while recording a cassette through the 
Behringer UCA202 USB interface. I had to run a separate pair of speakers 
out of the headphone port on the UCA202 in order to get external audio. 
Apparently the computer speaker muting is either intentional to prevent 
feedback or a conflict between the interface and/or the 
computer/Audacity program. I haven't found any documentation yet to 
support this but it doesn't matter at this point.


Richard P.

Re: [CGUYS] USB Audio Interface


Behringer UCA202. It's a great unit but I just think that my
computer or the Audacity program is muting my speakers while the
interface is connected. The UCA202 does allow monitoring through
headphones so that will work. I will try your suggestions along the way.


As I posted earlier, my USB audio interface also creates a few strange 
things with at least one of my audio recording apps.


  Steve



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Re: [CGUYS] Voting Perfection

[Michael Fernando]

> ... they print a "zero tape at the beginning of the voting day and
> then a "final tally" tape at the end. And the vote counts have to
> match meters on the front of the machines ...

This is the answer I got from my polling place in Montgomery county,
MD in 2004.  Sure, if the number of total votes recorded by the
machines match the number of voters who walked in, that simply
means there hasn't been an electronic equivalent of ballot box
stuffing.

That does _not_ mean that those black box voting machines didn't
incorrectly recorded voters' choices.  And, there's no way to
audit that fact without voters' choices being recorded in a medium
that could be hand counted (ie: voter verified paper records).
If they can't re-count without using the same (suspected) machines,
then I don't trust that system.


> While I have my own doubts about the programming of the machines,
> I think that the actual vote count is relatively secure.

Why should we believe the election officials or the black box
manufacturers that the count is accurate?  The officials can test
the machines before the election day for various scenarios.  The
manufacturer can have various internal quality testing.  Yet, it
only takes one not-so-honest programmer to do something like the
following to skew the tallies on the election day.

  if (today = election_day)  #easy to predict in the US
  if ( 8am < time < 5pm)
  magik_min = RANDOM_NUMBER (3 to 53)
  if ( magik_min < time_minutes < magik_min+4 )
  do { display voter's selection
   screw the voter and add votes to Party_X
  }
  end-if
  end-if
  end-if


The election officials won't catch this in their testing before
the election day.  How do we know the manufacturer's QA is
good enough?  If the HW are standard components and the software
is open, then others can do code audits.

Moreover, who knows if there are bugs that get triggered by a
specific sequence of events (ie: insert card; remove card; insert
card; touch screen; remove card; insert card; vote for the first
office; remove card; (ie: voting not completed) next person insert
card ... bug got triggered and the internal counters got totally
messed up)  If the machine is a sealed black box, how do we know
there's no bug like that?  Or even more weird ones?  If the software
is open, then code audits might catch it and the bug could be fixed.


> There has been much made about voter fraud and draconian identity
> schemes imposed to prevent it, but I think the problem posed by
> hacked voting machine software is orders of magnitude more serious
> and has been paid little or no attention (the denials of the
> machine vendors notwithstanding).

A well thought-out process would require election officials to reset
the machines (wipe their programs clean) and install the latest
software just before the election begins.  Of course, proprietary
machine manufacturers would object to election officials being able
to have access to the internals.


As others have pointed out, punch card machines or optical scanners
would make much better, simple yet effective, mechanized voting
systems.  However, the counting part of even those systems could be
influenced just as above.  So, their codes must also be audited.
Moreover, the election results should be randomly audited against
the paper records to make sure nothing funny actually happened.
Just having the paper records is not sufficient.


And, we've spent how many billions of dollars (supposedly) to bring
democracy to Iraq?  Why can't the federal government spend just a
tiny fraction of that money to bring a single, standard voting
system to our own country?



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Re: [CGUYS] USB Audio Interface

[rlsimon]

Total Recorder has a neat feature...It will record in virtually any format
and with complete customization and editing features ANYTHING that plays
through your speakers ...it's entirely software and no wires or folderol
...captures streams, anything at all ...very good thing!  Trial version so
you can see how it goes... http://www.highcriteria.com/

-Original Message-
From: Richard P. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 12:39 PM
Subject: Re: USB Audio Interface


FYI, I managed a work-a-round for the problem on not getting audio 
through the computer speakers while recording a cassette through the 
Behringer UCA202 USB interface. I had to run a separate pair of speakers 
out of the headphone port on the UCA202 in order to get external audio. 
Apparently the computer speaker muting is either intentional to prevent 
feedback or a conflict between the interface and/or the 
computer/Audacity program. I haven't found any documentation yet to 
support this but it doesn't matter at this point.

Richard P.

Re: [CGUYS] USB Audio Interface


Behringer UCA202. It's a great unit but I just think that my
computer or the Audacity program is muting my speakers while the
interface is connected. The UCA202 does allow monitoring through
headphones so that will work. I will try your suggestions along the way.


As I posted earlier, my USB audio interface also creates a few strange 
things with at least one of my audio recording apps.

  Steve



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Re: [CGUYS] Voting Perfection - found it!

[Tom Piwowar]

>-- http://www.cs.uiowa.edu/~jones/voting/pictures/datavote.jpg
>-- http://americanhistory.si.edu/vote/resources_datavote.html

This is the one. Worked real nice.



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Re: [CGUYS] Memory for indigo iMac

[Tom Piwowar]

>Is there any place I can get 2x512MB at a price that's not 3X more than 
>what I paid for the iMac [$20]?

I have seen some dealers in used Macs pull the RAM and sell that 
separately, but if you want a 512MB stick you will probably have to buy 
new. That will cost.



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Re: [CGUYS] IE 7 - clipboard question

[Rev. Stewart Marshall]

I have lately preferred Opera to Firefox.  I get too many lockups in 
Firefox and Opera never locks up on me.


Fast and nice.

Stewart


At 04:55 PM 1/9/2008, you wrote:
I use IE a lot, mostly because the Internet places away from home 
have it. It's truly an inferior piece of software. When I ask them 
to install Firefox, many do--and are pleased with the improvement.


The right answer is to change browsers, unless there's something 
that's specific to IE. Then you should complain to the site and ask 
them to fix it the code to Internet standards. You can always mask 
Firefox or Opera to get into sites that "require" IE. But if you 
don't switch and you have problems, it's your choice.


Betty


Rev. Stewart A. Marshall
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Prince of Peace
Ozark, AL  SL 82



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Re: [CGUYS] IE 7 - clipboard question

[b_s-wilk]

>
> That's not an answer Betty...they are alternatives; but thanks for 
your intellect!



I use IE a lot, mostly because the Internet places away from home have 
it. It's truly an inferior piece of software. When I ask them to install 
Firefox, many do--and are pleased with the improvement.


The right answer is to change browsers, unless there's something that's 
specific to IE. Then you should complain to the site and ask them to fix 
it the code to Internet standards. You can always mask Firefox or Opera 
to get into sites that "require" IE. But if you don't switch and you 
have problems, it's your choice.


Betty



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Re: [CGUYS] Transferring video from DVD into iMovie

[Steve at Verizon]

Sorry, not being a Mac guy, I didn't realize iMovie is Mac only. What I 
was referring to was that Nero Recode (pretty sure there is no Mac 
version) can take DVD formats and create MPEG4 versions which can be 
loaded on an iPod. See:


http://arstechnica.com/guides/tweaks/ipod-video.ars/5

David Turk wrote:

How does it work?

David Turk
Manager, Preservation Imaging Services
Indiana Historical Society
450 W. Ohio St.
Indianapolis, IN  46202
(317) 232-4592
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


-Original Message-
From: Computer Guys Announcements and Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
On Behalf Of Steve at Verizon
Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 1:05 PM
To: COMPUTERGUYS-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM
Subject: Re: [CGUYS] Transferring video from DVD into iMovie

I have Nero and discovered recently that it can do this.

David Turk wrote:
  

I have some video clips on a DVD I'd like to get into iMovie, but Importing 
doesn't seem to work.  Any thoughts?  tia.

   david

David Turk
Manager, Preservation Imaging Services
Indiana Historical Society
450 W. Ohio St.
Indianapolis, IN  46202
(317) 232-4592
[EMAIL PROTECTED]



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**

Re: [CGUYS] Voting Perfection - have we found it?

[Mike Sloane]

I completely agree! (I was only pointing out that the "electronic" 
machines we have do work, even if they are pretty well kluged up.) The 
previous system was a very simple system using optical scanning of a 
simple marked paper ballot. It produced the original voter-marked 
ballot, a tape count, and a "data pack" of some proprietary nature about 
as big as the proverbial "pack of cigarettes". It worked with 100% 
accuracy, was very easy for both voters and poll workers, very quick to 
count votes, and was quite inexpensive. Even if the power failed, we 
would have just accumulated the paper ballots and run them through the 
machine or hand counted them later. But we were forced by congressional 
legislation to abandon them in favor of the new "electronic" machines. 
Even at this time, the state legislature is considering getting rid of 
the electronic machines (fortunately, our county election board was wise 
enough not to dispose of the old machines, just in case...) It was also 
much, much easier to deal with "write in" votes, as the electronic 
machines require typing in write-in vote using a touch screen "keyboard" 
that would create horrible back-ups in voting if a serious write-in 
campaign were to occur. (The optical system looks for any marking in the 
"write-in" area and dumps those ballots into a separate bin for hand 
counting.) I don't have the name of the mark sense machines, but they 
were truly "bulletproof" in every way.


Mike

Mike

db wrote:
Mike ...Thanks for the informed details re: the computer voting machine  
that I was wondering about.
I am a tech professional but I LOVE any type of system that does it's 
job extremely well with elegant simplicity, minimal overhead and low 
cost regardless of the tech involved.
To me those qualities, define good functional design.In the tech 
field I think we often use computers unnecessarily to  "reinvent the 
wheel" and the motivation for doing so is a combination of myopic tech 
fascination and the $ to be gained.


The computer voting machines you describe, seem unnecessarily  fraught 
with unwieldy power cords, battery overhead issues, various paper roll 
issues,  hacking security and storage liabilities and unnecessary cost 
issues.  The KISS theory (Keep It Simple Stupid) should apply here me 
thinks.


All in all, it seems like a ballot machine like DataVote, that Tom and 
Alvin had used and I found reference to, is the way to go.   Bring back 
IBM punchcards!!   :)


db




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Re: [CGUYS] Voting Perfection - have we found it?

[db]

Mike ...Thanks for the informed details re: the computer voting machine  
that I was wondering about. 

I am a tech professional but I LOVE any type of system that does it's 
job extremely well with elegant simplicity, minimal overhead and low 
cost regardless of the tech involved. 

To me those qualities, define good functional design.In the tech 
field I think we often use computers unnecessarily to  "reinvent the 
wheel" and the motivation for doing so is a combination of myopic tech 
fascination and the $ to be gained.


The computer voting machines you describe, seem unnecessarily  fraught 
with unwieldy power cords, battery overhead issues, various paper roll 
issues,  hacking security and storage liabilities and unnecessary cost 
issues.  The KISS theory (Keep It Simple Stupid) should apply here me 
thinks.


All in all, it seems like a ballot machine like DataVote, that Tom and 
Alvin had used and I found reference to, is the way to go.   Bring back 
IBM punchcards!!   :)


db

Mike Sloane wrote:

db wrote:
I read an article about those or similar machines.  Partly because of 
the printer size issue and partly because of the cost, the printers 
they built in were small and cheap.  That made them hard to load by 
the volunteer ... often senior citizen ... staff.
Our machines use tape rolls, the same tape that is used to print the 
results - I forgot to mention those in the list of results objects in 
my original message - they print a "zero tape at the beginning of the 
voting day and then a "final tally" tape at the end. And the vote 
counts have to match meters on the front of the machines (which can 
get pretty complicated at the end of the day for a number of reasons 
that have to do with "provisional voting", voters from other precincts 
[legally] using machines in another precinct, etc.)


 At election time,24% of all stations wouldn't  print and by law, the 
paper ballot was actually the official record.  When they were 
examined.  the paper feed was jammed, often because of the guides had 
bent when the paper rolls were inserted.
I can only tell you that we had no problems with the printers in our 
county during the last three elections - about 100 machines. I cannot 
speak to the quality of the printers or the staff at other counties.


Myself... I wonder how they deal with the power issue.  They 
obviously must run on battery power since I can't see how they could 
deal with such a forest of extension cords and I see none in photos. 
I would think there must be problems with having the computers and 
printers run all day on battery power.  Because of instant use need, 
I doubt they could use any power conservation features.  They must 
use a honker of a battery and a PDA type processor.  The printer is 
probably the biggest power draw.
Each machine is line powered and has a battery back-up that looks like 
a big car battery. At a couple of precincts, the poll workers either 
neglected to plug the machines in or made other mistakes in setting 
them up, and the result was that a couple of machines shut themselves 
down after about 8 hours. Once they were powered back up, they resumed 
their function with no other problems. The printers are essentially 
small "cash register" type dot matrix impact type, and the resulting 
paper ballot is only about 2"x6" (depending on the number of 
candidates and public questions - on the school budget election with 
only one question "yes" or "no" it was much smaller). The printers 
only run for a few seconds after the voter touches the "cast ballot" 
icon on the screen.


Then battery life issue becomes a problem if the devices are only 
used and paid attention to once or twice a year...
My experience with similar batteries is that they do quite well in 
those environments, at least for the first 4-5 years. After than, they 
would probably need to be replaced.


More than average non tech bureaucrats can deal with it seems.  In 
the news, you can see that the machines are being dumped by many 
municipalities
I think that there is a lot of misunderstanding between the vendors, 
the officials, and the public. While I have my own doubts about the 
programming of the machines, I think that the actual vote count is 
relatively secure. Part of the problem is that the move to electronic 
voting was done before the technology was thought through and left to 
a few entrepreneurs to develop. As a judge supervising the last 
several elections in my precinct, I feel that the human interface has 
a LOT to be desired, but the mechanical part is reasonably secure. The 
biggest potential for problems that I see is that the machines are 
stored in a local warehouse between elections, and I don't think it 
would take much for a determined individual to break in to the site 
and hack the software to bias the results - in a close race, even a 2% 
bias (which would probably go unnoticed) would be enough to influence 
the results. There has been much made about voter fr

Re: [CGUYS] Voting Perfection -- isn't electronic

[b_s-wilk]

db wrote:

I read an article about those or similar machines.  Partly because
of the printer size issue and partly because of the cost, the
printers they built in were small and cheap.  That made them hard
to load by the volunteer ... often senior citizen ... staff.

Our machines use tape rolls, the same tape that is used to print the
results - I forgot to mention those in the list of results objects in
my original message - they print a "zero tape at the beginning of the
voting day and then a "final tally" tape at the end. And the vote
counts have to match meters on the front of the machines (which can
get pretty complicated at the end of the day for a number of reasons
that have to do with "provisional voting", voters from other
precincts [legally] using machines in another precinct, etc.)



The machines that use the paper rolls are as easily hackable as the DRE 
machines.


Please note that the results on Tuesday in New Hampshire were in line 
with the exit/entrance polls in counties that hand-counted their 
ballots, but there were discrepancies in counties that used 
closed-source electronic systems. The "zero tape" and "final tally" have 
nothing to do with the actual votes when the systems have been hacked 
before the final tally. Provisional voters usually don't have their 
votes counted at all anyway.


Best choice is hand counting in public with observers. Second best is 
open-source software counting votes in scanners with provision for 
hand-counted ballots in public for recounts.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiiaBqwqkXs
http://www.bradblog.com/?p=5530


Betty



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Re: [CGUYS] Filemaker "personal" for $49.00

[Rich Schinnell]

At 01:26 PM 1/9/2008, COMPUTERGUYS-L automatic digest system wrote:

Date:Wed, 9 Jan 2008 00:22:42 -0500
From:b_s-wilk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Filemaker "personal" for $49.00
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15; format=flowed; 
x-avg-checked=avg-ok-6E57EB

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Sounds like the AppleWorks database. That was fairly useful for 
small offices and home.


Is Bento flat file or relational?



My bento has hard boiled quail eggs and sashimi along with some great
fried fish.  And of course some fried rice in it..

YMMV

PS: Some who have been to Japan in the past know that Bento is a
Japanese lunch.



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Re: [CGUYS] Voting Perfection - found it!

[db]

I think I found the "perfect" voting machine that a few of you have 
described using in the past.
I found a punch card voting expert who emailed me some links (below) to 
the device. It's called DataVote and I think it's great in its 
inexpensive simplicity and surety.  They could keep its retro look as 
retro is fashionable or give it a modern facelift.   Go DataVote GO!


db

On Jan 8, 2008, at 5:58 PM, db wrote:

I was looking for brand info on ballot punch device used by some 
polling places.  Some people have talked about using one that had a 
lever that cleanly and consistently punched an IBM card type ballots 
and in googling for such I came across your web article: 
http://www.cs.uiowa.edu/~jones/cards/chad.html


Do you possibly know the brand?


The DataVote system fits your description.  I have a DataVote ballot
in my collection:

-- http://www.cs.uiowa.edu/~jones/voting/pictures/datavote.jpg

The Smithsonian has a DataVote punch:

-- http://americanhistory.si.edu/vote/resources_datavote.html

   Doug Jones

db wrote:

I wonder what the brand of puncher was  ... does anyone know?

In googling, I see reference mostly to the Votomatic that was 
problematically used in Florida.   There is an older Coyle model shown 
in a photo in the following link:


http://americanhistory.si.edu/vote/punchcard.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voting_machine#Punch_card

??

dab

Tom Piwowar wrote:
It was a system that used an IBM card and a hand pressed punch, 
with  no electricity required. The card was inserted in the simple 
machine.  You could see the card at all times. You slid a pointer 
down until it  was next to your choice of candidate or issue. You 
then pressed down  


I used to live in a place that used those. As you wrote, they were 
great. Also, because they were inexpensive the poll had lots of them 
ready. So there was no bottleneck waiting to get at one of the small 
number of expensive machines.




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Re: [CGUYS] IE 7 - clipboard question

[Terry Kilburg]

That's not an answer Betty...they are alternatives; but thanks for your 
intellect!



Terry Kilburg - Independent Reliv International Distributor!
563-872-3788   [EMAIL PROTECTED]



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[CGUYS] Memory for indigo iMac

[b_s-wilk]

I just got a slot-loading CRT iMac G3/500 that, naturally, doesn't have 
enough memory.


Is there any place I can get 2x512MB at a price that's not 3X more than 
what I paid for the iMac [$20]? Specs call for PC100 SDRAM DIMMs. Can I 
use PC133? [yes, it will ignore the extra 33MHz, I have PC133 in my PM 
G4 that requires PC100] Can I use RAM for PCs? which configuration?


Will this work: "Description: 512MB PC133 SDRAM 168-PIN DIMM 64X64-75 
64x4 16Chip High Density; Major 
Brand:Micron/Samsung/Hitachi/Infineon/Hyundai " ? Do I need to use low 
density instead?


Betty



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Re: [CGUYS] Voting Perfection

[Mike Sloane]

db wrote:
I read an article about those or similar machines.  Partly because of 
the printer size issue and partly because of the cost, the printers they 
built in were small and cheap.  That made them hard to load by the 
volunteer ... often senior citizen ... staff.
Our machines use tape rolls, the same tape that is used to print the 
results - I forgot to mention those in the list of results objects in my 
original message - they print a "zero tape at the beginning of the 
voting day and then a "final tally" tape at the end. And the vote counts 
have to match meters on the front of the machines (which can get pretty 
complicated at the end of the day for a number of reasons that have to 
do with "provisional voting", voters from other precincts [legally] 
using machines in another precinct, etc.)


 At election time,24% of 
all stations wouldn't  print and by law, the paper ballot was actually 
the official record.  When they were examined.  the paper feed was 
jammed, often because of the guides had bent when the paper rolls were 
inserted.
I can only tell you that we had no problems with the printers in our 
county during the last three elections - about 100 machines. I cannot 
speak to the quality of the printers or the staff at other counties.


Myself... I wonder how they deal with the power issue.  They obviously 
must run on battery power since I can't see how they could deal with 
such a forest of extension cords and I see none in photos. I would think 
there must be problems with having the computers and printers run all 
day on battery power.  Because of instant use need, I doubt they could 
use any power conservation features.  They must use a honker of a 
battery and a PDA type processor.  The printer is probably the biggest 
power draw.
Each machine is line powered and has a battery back-up that looks like a 
big car battery. At a couple of precincts, the poll workers either 
neglected to plug the machines in or made other mistakes in setting them 
up, and the result was that a couple of machines shut themselves down 
after about 8 hours. Once they were powered back up, they resumed their 
function with no other problems. The printers are essentially small 
"cash register" type dot matrix impact type, and the resulting paper 
ballot is only about 2"x6" (depending on the number of candidates and 
public questions - on the school budget election with only one question 
"yes" or "no" it was much smaller). The printers only run for a few 
seconds after the voter touches the "cast ballot" icon on the screen.


Then battery life issue becomes a problem if the devices are only used 
and paid attention to once or twice a year...
My experience with similar batteries is that they do quite well in those 
environments, at least for the first 4-5 years. After than, they would 
probably need to be replaced.


More than average non tech bureaucrats can deal with it seems.  In the 
news, you can see that the machines are being dumped by many 
municipalities
I think that there is a lot of misunderstanding between the vendors, the 
officials, and the public. While I have my own doubts about the 
programming of the machines, I think that the actual vote count is 
relatively secure. Part of the problem is that the move to electronic 
voting was done before the technology was thought through and left to a 
few entrepreneurs to develop. As a judge supervising the last several 
elections in my precinct, I feel that the human interface has a LOT to 
be desired, but the mechanical part is reasonably secure. The biggest 
potential for problems that I see is that the machines are stored in a 
local warehouse between elections, and I don't think it would take much 
for a determined individual to break in to the site and hack the 
software to bias the results - in a close race, even a 2% bias (which 
would probably go unnoticed) would be enough to influence the results. 
There has been much made about voter fraud and draconian identity 
schemes imposed to prevent it, but I think the problem posed by hacked 
voting machine software is orders of magnitude more serious and has been 
paid little or no attention (the denials of the machine vendors 
notwithstanding).


Again, I can only speak to our experience in Warren County NJ, not 
anywhere else in the country.


Mike


db

Mike Sloane wrote:
Our county uses Sequoia machines that run on Windows 2000. They 
produce: a count on the hard drive, a CD-R, a count on a memory stick, 
and a paper ballot (that is stored in a sealed bin). The paper ballot 
can be viewed through a Plexi-glass window prior to the voter pressing 
the key for the second time to cast their ballot. They get to reject 
the ballot and do it over twice. If they still don't like it, the 
ballot is discarded, and they have to cast a hand written 
"provisional" ballot that has to be approved by a special judge 
assigned to the county election board. We have never had anyone reject 
a ballot they cast, bu

Re: [CGUYS] Transferring video from DVD into iMovie

[David Turk]

How does it work?

David Turk
Manager, Preservation Imaging Services
Indiana Historical Society
450 W. Ohio St.
Indianapolis, IN  46202
(317) 232-4592
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


-Original Message-
From: Computer Guys Announcements and Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
On Behalf Of Steve at Verizon
Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 1:05 PM
To: COMPUTERGUYS-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM
Subject: Re: [CGUYS] Transferring video from DVD into iMovie

I have Nero and discovered recently that it can do this.

David Turk wrote:
> I have some video clips on a DVD I'd like to get into iMovie, but Importing 
> doesn't seem to work.  Any thoughts?  tia.
>
>david
>
> David Turk
> Manager, Preservation Imaging Services
> Indiana Historical Society
> 450 W. Ohio St.
> Indianapolis, IN  46202
> (317) 232-4592
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
> 
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>
>



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Re: [CGUYS] Transferring video from DVD into iMovie

[Steve at Verizon]

I have Nero and discovered recently that it can do this.

David Turk wrote:

I have some video clips on a DVD I'd like to get into iMovie, but Importing 
doesn't seem to work.  Any thoughts?  tia.

   david

David Turk
Manager, Preservation Imaging Services
Indiana Historical Society
450 W. Ohio St.
Indianapolis, IN  46202
(317) 232-4592
[EMAIL PROTECTED]



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[CGUYS] Transferring video from DVD into iMovie

[David Turk]

I have some video clips on a DVD I'd like to get into iMovie, but Importing 
doesn't seem to work.  Any thoughts?  tia.

   david

David Turk
Manager, Preservation Imaging Services
Indiana Historical Society
450 W. Ohio St.
Indianapolis, IN  46202
(317) 232-4592
[EMAIL PROTECTED]



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[CGUYS] Exploding Laptop Battery

[Richard P.]

Another laptop battery problem:.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7178493.stm.

BBC NEWS
Exploding laptop hits LG shares
*Shares in LG Electronics and LG Chem have fallen after a laptop 
computer exploded, which LG Electronics said contained an LG Chem 
battery. *


Several Korean newspapers reported the computer owned by a local 
journalist had exploded while in sleeping mode.


News channel YTN showed pictures of flames and smoke rising from it.

LG Chem has asked a third party to investigate the incident, although 
there was no indication that the battery had been to blame.


LG Electronics shares closed down 5.7% in Seoul while LG Chem fell 4.7%.

In 2006, Sony began recalling 9.6 million lithium-ion batteries because 
of fears that they could burst into flames. The recall eventually cost 
it 51.2bn yen ($467m; £238m).


LG Chem is the world's fifth-largest manufacturer of lithium-ion 
batteries, which are used in mobile phones and laptop computers.


Story from BBC NEWS:

Richard P.



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Re: [CGUYS] Apple Update question

[rocky lee]

Sometimes the updates are comprehensive and include all the updates
until the date of the comprehensive update.

At other times,  the updates require a previous update in order to install.
It might be the OS cannot install a 2.1.1 update until it has 2.1.0 installed 
for example. When I run the software updates, I do it manually until it says 
'No further updates available at this time'  In the past I've updated, 
restarted the machine, and found that the updates for more software updates.

Rocky



   
   
   
 Date:Tue, 8 Jan 2008 20:49:35 -0500
From:Stephen Brownfield 
Subject: Apple Update question

I use Apple "Software Update" to see if there are any updates I need to 
install.  I then go to the Apple site, download it and manually install 
it.  I did this with Security Update 2007-009, however  "Software 
Update" still says I need to install Security Update 2007-009 version 
1.1.  What is going on? Did they update the Security Update after I 
installed it?

Steve




   
-
Looking for last minute shopping deals?  Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.



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Re: [CGUYS] Filemaker "personal" for $49.00

[Snyder, Mark (NGIT-CA)]

Ars has a preliminary review here:
http://arstechnica.com/journals/apple.ars/2008/01/08/bento-1-0-for-mac-o
s-x-released-out-of-beta 

Says it uses SQLite, is not scriptable.

Thank you,
 
Mark Snyder
-Original Message-
According to the filemaker web site http://www.filemaker.com it looks
like it just organizes information from Address Book, iCal, iWork, CSV
data, etc.  Does not look like a real database application to me.
Requires Leopard.

Thank you,
 
Mark Snyder
-Original Message-
Sounds like the AppleWorks database. That was fairly useful for small 
offices and home.

Is Bento flat file or relational?



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Re: [CGUYS] Filemaker "personal" for $49.00

[Snyder, Mark (NGIT-CA)]

According to the filemaker web site http://www.filemaker.com it looks
like it just organizes information from Address Book, iCal, iWork, CSV
data, etc.  Does not look like a real database application to me.
Requires Leopard.

Thank you,
 
Mark Snyder
-Original Message-
Sounds like the AppleWorks database. That was fairly useful for small 
offices and home.

Is Bento flat file or relational?



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Re: [CGUYS] Building Your Own TIVO

[Site Guy]

What is the cost so far?

- Original Message - 
From: "Jay Montero" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2008 12:07 PM
Subject: [CGUYS] Building Your Own TIVO


Here's what I've got working.  Note that for recording less than HDTV, you 
can get by with way less hardware in terms of CPU and video card.


My MythDora 4 System:
Biostar NF325-A7 754 NVIDIA nForce3 250 ATX AMD Motherboard
AMD Athlon 64 3200+ Venice 2.2GHz 512KB L2 Cache Socket 754 Processor
Eagle Tech Coolpower400 Power Supply
EVGA nVidia GeForce 6200 256Mb AGP Graphics Card
Technisat Airstar-HD5000-PCI ATSC HDTV Card (came with remote but I use my 
Harmony Universal)

(one can also control MythTV via keyboard so some folks opt for wireless)
CHAINTECH AV-710 7.1 Channels 24-bit 192KHz PCI Sound Card
1GB DDR SDRAM 400 (PC 3200)
160GB Dedicated IDE Harddrive

on Fri, 4 Jan 2008, Vicky Staubly wrote:


I've been thinking about doing that myself. What hardware (especially
graphics card) did you use? Did you get a (IR or other) remote control
working?





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