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There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: Future English
From: Estel Telcontar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2. Re: Evidentials for a future English
From: "Ph. D." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3. Re: Question about word-final velar nasal
From: Danny Wier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4. Re: Phoneme Analysis Question
From: "Ph. D." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5. Re: Phoneme Analysis Question
From: Muke Tever <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6. Re: The things all conlangs should be able to express
From: Muke Tever <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7. Re: Phoneme Analysis Question
From: "Ph. D." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8. Re: Question about word-final velar nasal
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9. Re: Borrowing Wordlist
From: Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10. Re: Looking for interesting ways to handle relative clauses.
From: Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11. Re: Naming your Language
From: Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12. Re: Naming your Language
From: "H. S. Teoh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13. Re: Word categories (Was: Re: Borrowing Wordlist)
From: Benct Philip Jonsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14. Re: OT: Children and video games
From: Benct Philip Jonsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15. Re: OT: Children and video games
From: Benct Philip Jonsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16. Re: Information on future English language development?
From: "Isaac A. Penzev" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17. Re: Naming your Language
From: "Thomas R. Wier" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18. Re: Phoneme Analysis Question
From: "Thomas R. Wier" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19. OT: going offline
From: Philippe Caquant <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20. Re: Naming your Language
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21. Re: Information on future English language development?
From: Joe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22. Re: Looking for interesting ways to handle relative clauses.
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23. Palatization and Lenition etc
From: Chris Bates <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24. Re: Information on future English language development?
From: Simon Richard Clarkstone <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25. Re: Palatization and Lenition etc
From: Joe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Message: 1
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 03:35:21 +0200
From: Estel Telcontar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Future English
Sally Caves ha tera a:
> > Many of the changes I think of are more morphological/syntactic.
> > For example, one of the features I quite like is a simplification
of
> > the irregular verb system, so that past participles of (all but a
few)
> > irregular verbs are formed by adding "-en" to the past tense - for
> > example, in regular spelling:
> > sing - sang -sangen
> > write - wrote - wroten
> > hit - hit - hitten
> > slide - slid - slidden
> >
> > and so on, basically forming a new paradigm. There would still be
a
> > few really irregular verbs like "be" and "have" and "go".
> Vyko, Estel! Interesting! It jives with some of the variations I've
heard
> for brought and bought: "I'd've broughten it if someone told to."
"My
> mother's just boughten me a new coat." So also, "putten"?
Yes, I've collected a large list of such formations I've heard in real
life, including the examples you mention. I've also heard some other
revisions of irregular verb paradigms that don't fit this pattern, but
this is by far the most common. In my future English, almost all
irregular verbs would be reshaped according to this pattern, except
"be", "have", and suppletive verbs like "go"
> Would spelling stay the same?
Well, currently for most of my future English stuff I use the spelling
system I developed for my variety of spoken English, which I can't
always type easily because it uses non-ASCII characters, and my ability
to use them depends on the computer I'm using.
> Another thing that interests me is whether you
> intend to think about class issues eventually: what class status
would this
> occupy? You mention "casually spoken" English. Will class or
regional
> linguistic differences have evened out? Will there be a formal or
"elite"
> future English, say, for written or educated uses? Will that change,
too,
> in perhaps other ways? I was rather impressed by the example given
in A
> Clockwork Orange where even the scholar's written language had
changed, but
> not along the lines of the street thugs.
Well, currently I don't have any such plans, but the way these things
usually work is that I think of a bunch of "neat features" and then
discover which ones seem like they'd work well together. So if I
happen to think of any "neat features" for a future society that could
speak an English-derived language, and they were compatible with this
language, I might put them together. But I do imagine something like
this being the standard language.
-Estel
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Message: 2
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 21:52:03 -0400
From: "Ph. D." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Evidentials for a future English
Mark J. Reed wrote:
>
> On the subject of future English, it seems likely to me likely
> that the English of the near future will have lost the verbs for
> arithmetic operations, replacing them with the reading of
> their signs. Viz:
>
> "If you times 2 by 2, you get 4."
>
> Just last night I was reading a page about poker odds which
> referred several times to having to "minus" one in various
> formulae. I've also heard "plus" used to mean "add", even
> though it seems less necessary, the two words being about
> equally simple. And I must admit, that while hanging around
> CONLANG has done wonders to combat my prescriptivist
> nature, I still physically cringe when I read things like this.
> The author is fortunate that modern technology doesn't yet
> support my reaching through the screen to give him a good
> slap. :)
I agree completely. I was recently in a training session where
we were taught several financial calculations. Two of the people
in the group consistently said things such as, "You have to minus
the base from the reserve first, then you times it by fifteen per
cent" and "At the end, you plus the two numbers together."
After a week of this, I found it difficult not to choke both of them.
--Ph. D.
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Message: 3
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 20:42:27 -0500
From: Danny Wier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Question about word-final velar nasal
Kat Trebor Jung:
> Danny írta: "[What] causes the development of word- or syllable-final
> nasals
> in these situations, and why no initial cases? Unless it happens because
> of
> a loss of /g/ or /k/ after /n/ or /m/, it seems like a weakening of the
> final nasal.
>
> Hmm. I think maybe you're right... [Ng] > [N].
>
> "And why is Japanese (unassimilated) syllable-final /N/ uvular?"
>
> Maybe a fossil of Japanese links to Eskimo-Aleut or something? ;)
Yeah, emphasis on the wink... I don't even think the uvular nasal was one of
the phonemes of Proto-Inuit. Just *q and *R.
> BTW: Welcome back, Danny! You've been missed! :))
Tlakt (thanks!), I had to go nomail for a while because I've just been busy
with moving, my own music and natlang studies, and other personal matters.
I'm still laying low really, and Tech may never get finished at this rate.
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Message: 4
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 22:12:33 -0400
From: "Ph. D." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Phoneme Analysis Question
Jean-FranXois Colson wrote:
>
> BTW How do you pronounce |it'd|? Do you insert a vowel
> between /t/ and /d/ or do you succeed to say [Itd]?
>
> JF
I live in the midwestern United States, and I just say [id].
Some people here say [id] and others say [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--Ph. D.
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Message: 5
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 20:15:35 -0600
From: Muke Tever <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Phoneme Analysis Question
On Thu, 21 Oct 2004 22:12:33 -0400, Ph. D. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Jean-FranXois Colson wrote:
>>
>> BTW How do you pronounce |it'd|? Do you insert a vowel
>> between /t/ and /d/ or do you succeed to say [Itd]?
>
> I live in the midwestern United States, and I just say [id].
> Some people here say [id] and others say [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[Id] or [I4@(d)] here. "it'd be" = ["[EMAIL PROTECTED] ~ ["Id%bi] ~ ["Ib%bi]
*Muke!
--
website: http://frath.net/
LiveJournal: http://kohath.livejournal.com/
deviantArt: http://kohath.deviantart.com/
FrathWiki, a conlang and conculture wiki:
http://wiki.frath.net/
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Message: 6
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 20:27:57 -0600
From: Muke Tever <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: The things all conlangs should be able to express
On Thu, 21 Oct 2004 18:59:11 -0400, Trebor Jung <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Sorry if this is too reminiscent of the Sapper-Whorf Hypothesis or language
> universals that Greenberg proposed... :) But I'd like to know if anyone has
> a list of things a well-developed conlang should be able to express? If so,
> please share :)
There is the "Universal Language Dictionary", (posted here the other day, or
Google for it; also linked on langmaker) which is a list of things a
mature auxlang should be able to express.
For conlanging in general it may have to be a different kind of list, to allow
for things like cultural variation (prime ministers, computers, etc., don't need
to be expressed by all conlangs).
*Muke!
--
website: http://frath.net/
LiveJournal: http://kohath.livejournal.com/
deviantArt: http://kohath.deviantart.com/
FrathWiki, a conlang and conculture wiki:
http://wiki.frath.net/
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Message: 7
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 22:30:15 -0400
From: "Ph. D." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Phoneme Analysis Question
Ph. D. wrote:
>
> Jean-FranXois Colson wrote:
> >
> > BTW How do you pronounce |it'd|? Do you insert a vowel
> > between /t/ and /d/ or do you succeed to say [Itd]?
>
> I live in the midwestern United States, and I just say [id].
> Some people here say [id] and others say [EMAIL PROTECTED]
I'm sorry. Those should be [Id] and [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--Ph. D.
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Message: 8
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 00:21:45 -0400
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Question about word-final velar nasal
Hi Danny!!
As others have said, Germanic /N/ comes from */Ng/, so that explains that.
Probably the case in other language families too.
Some dialects of Spanish (among Peruvians, that I know of) substitute [N]
for final /n/ and (rare) /-m/-- probably the only case of -m in anything
like common use is "album".
/N/ may be the "least marked" or default nasal in final position; several
languages of Indonesia have also merged final -m and -n (and -N) > N. I
suspect there is a simple articulatory explanation-- once you have _V + any
nasal > V~ _ you've essentially lost all information about the original
nasal.
OTOH, in other languages of that area, initial/medial N is often lost by
merger with /n/, never the other way round.
>
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Message: 9
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 06:47:56 +0200
From: Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Borrowing Wordlist
On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 13:59:14 -0400, Jeffrey Henning <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Sikere! ("Thanks", from Hindi and Arabic /sh*k*r/ forms)
Oh! Does that mean that Arabic "shukran" and Turkish "tesekkürler" are
related? Never thought about a possible derivation from Arabic!
Cheers,
--
Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Watch the Reply-To!
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Message: 10
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 07:24:44 +0200
From: Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Looking for interesting ways to handle relative clauses.
On Thu, 21 Oct 2004 15:43:31 -0400, Trebor Jung <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I can't think of any ideas for my conlangs' relative clauses besides these:
> as in English, Turkish (participles), and Egyptian Arabic (resumptive
> pronouns).
Have you looked at Ebisedian? relative clauses appearing before their
head and bracketed by two words which are inflected according to the
role of the relative clause in the main sentence and the role of the
head of the relative clause inside its clause, IIRC.
Cheers,
--
Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Watch the Reply-To!
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Message: 11
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 07:21:17 +0200
From: Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Naming your Language
On Thu, 21 Oct 2004 15:31:35 -0400, scott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> How are some of the ways you have named your language and its speakers?
I've called my conlang "Ko e Vagahau he Motu", which simply means
"Speech of the Island", since its speakers live on a smallish coral
island. I haven't decided on a name for the speakers.
Cheers,
--
Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Watch the Reply-To!
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Message: 12
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 22:35:22 -0700
From: "H. S. Teoh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Naming your Language
On Thu, Oct 21, 2004 at 03:31:35PM -0400, scott wrote:
[...]
> How are some of the ways you have named your language and its speakers?
[...]
Ebisédian is just a mangled anglicization of the word _3bis33'di_
[EMAIL PROTECTED]"[EMAIL PROTECTED]:di] (meaning "people", also anglicized as Ebisédi
sometimes
to refer to the inhabitants of Ferochromon). The full name of the
language, or the way it is referred to natively, is _ni 3bis33'di d3
3t3mii'_ [ni @\bi"[EMAIL PROTECTED]:di [EMAIL PROTECTED] @[EMAIL PROTECTED]"m\@:] "the
language of the people".
Literally, it means "the words in the people".
Tamahí is a transliteration of _tamahi'_ [tama"hi], which is the
gerund "speaking". Being a descendent language of Ebisédian, the
speakers of Tamahí are the same people, the Ebisédi.
Tatari Faran is a native phrase meaning "the language of Fara" or "the
language of the Plain". _Tatari_ [tata4i] means "language" or
"speaking"; _faran_ [fa4an] is the genitive of _fara_, meaning
"plain". The inhabitants of Fara only know of one plain, the one they
live on, having no idea that anything exists beyond the mountains (the
stratovolcanoes) that surround them. The people themselves are thus
far unnamed, although one might call them _hesan faran_ [h&san fa4an]
"the people of Fara".
T
--
Leather is waterproof. Ever see a cow with an umbrella?
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Message: 13
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 11:08:35 +0200
From: Benct Philip Jonsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Word categories (Was: Re: Borrowing Wordlist)
Roger Mills wrote:
> H.S.Teoh wrote:
>
> (grosse Schnipf)
>
>
>>If I missed any major categories here, please speak up. :-) It might
>>be useful if people can suggest improvements/revisions to this list,
>>so that I can post it up on my conlang site as a resource for future
>>conlangers. Suggestions for massive taxonomical reorganizations are OK
>>too, since this list as it stands is very rough and could use some
>>tidying up.
>>
>
> You might find my wordlist handy, though it's a little biased toward
> Indonesian/tropical stuff; it does have a few holes... The bilingual
> version is here:
> http://cinduworld.tripod.com/wordlist.txt
>
> B.P. Jonsson has an English-only version posted somewhere... I'm not sure
> he's ever announced it to the list.
I haven't, because my planned update of my website went out the
window due to other responsibilities. I'll send it to any that
contacts me offlist, however.
--
/BP 8^)
--
Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se
Solitudinem faciunt pacem appellant!
(Tacitus)
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Message: 14
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 11:31:51 +0200
From: Benct Philip Jonsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: OT: Children and video games
Jan van Steenbergen wrote:
> --- Benct Philip Jonsson skrzypszy:
>
>
>>I'm sorry for this completely OT question, but since you guys
>>are my best friends on the net I put this question to those
>>among you who are parents.
>>
>>My six year old son has become totally obsessed with video
>>games. He either plays sports games on the computer, or
>>watches sport on the TV, and has totally creased to play
>>in the more traditional sense. We don't want him to play
>>*all* the time, but when we try to make him do other things
>>he flies into a rage. So my question to the parents among
>>you is: what is your parental policy on video games?
>
>
> Ouch, that's bad! Well, since Suzanne is almost three now I can't
> really give you any advise based on my own experience. But a good
> friend of mine, whose son is 10 now, has similar problems.
>
> Introducing a time limit would probably be the best thing to do for
> both TV and games. Say, no longer than one hour a day of each. Or
> even, one hour a day of both of them (in which case he'll have the
> right to choose... and thus, one addiction fights another). In
> weekends, you can eventually double the amount of time.
The problem is that we are powerless when it comes to the
big boys: théy will ignore any time limit we set, and
Philip just can't see it as fair that there should be a
time limit on his playing, the 13 year age difference
notwithstanding (which he also doesn't fully understand:
after all they all call Mommy Mommy, right?). Trying to
make the bigguns play only after the litlun has gone to
bed helps to some degree. We also have made a rule that
each family member is to choose one TV program aday,
which means he can't watch *all* the sports shows, and
that programs after 8 PM are off limits for him.
It's not that we are clueless or lax parents, it's just
that we have problems with making the little boy understand
that he can't live by the same rules as the big ones.
> In the case of my friend, this works to some degree.
>
> Another thing I can think of is allowing it only on the odd days.
> IMO, this is an excellent way to prevent addiction.
>
> If none of this works, well, then you may consider following
> Cristina's suggestion and get rid of the stuff altogether. But that's
> not my preferred solution: by disallowing it altogether you may turn
> it into a forbidden fruit.
Exactly. That's what my father achieved by forbidding
conlanging and fantasy literature! :)
> About the rage thing: remember that yóu are the parent, and that yóu
> are the one running the show, not he. Sometimes you'll just need to
> be tough. If he flies into rage, well, let him... neglect him, and if
> that doesn't work, expel him to his room. I know how hard that can
> be, BTW!
Yeah. It's not that I/we can't handle his rages, but I would
prefer them to come less often...
> Another thing to remember is that the other members of the family
> need to give him a good example, which with two older kids at home
> may be difficult.
Tell me about it!
> Talk to them, and make sure that they don't watch
> TV all the time eithre when little Philip is around; it's
> unforgivable to forbid something to one member of the family while
> allowing it to some other.
Indeed. Thàt's precisely the problem, and to control what shows
the big ones watch when Philip's awake and around...
> Oh, and don't forget to offer him an alternative. Play non-electronic
> games with him, like chess.
That's a bit too complicated for him. But he likes more juvenile
board games and is developing a taste for checkers and backgammon!
> Convince him to start reading, or
Well, he likes to borrow sports novels aimed at a teenage
audience. I don't know how much he understands, but he has
me reading the stuff to him. Usually he is silent during
the passages that describe sports events, but starts asking
questions that indicate he's clueless during the passages
describing social relations -- or falls asleep.
> drawing,
He does that. Cars, soccer-players, hockey-players, monsters
-- the usual stuff for a 6 y.o. boy.
> or building,
He does Lego too, tho less and less, which is what concerns me.
> or whatever. Six is also a very good age to
> start playing a musical instrument
Except that noone else in the family is musically talented.
>(but don't send him anywhere
> unless he wants to).
Yeah, there is that too.
/BP 8^)
--
Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se
Solitudinem faciunt pacem appellant!
(Tacitus)
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Message: 15
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 11:39:04 +0200
From: Benct Philip Jonsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: OT: Children and video games
Dan Sulani wrote:
> On 19 October, Benct Philip Jonsson wrote:
>
>> I'm sorry for this completely OT question, but since you guys
>> are my best friends on the net I put this question to those
>> among you who are parents.
>>
>> My six year old son has become totally obsessed with video
>> games. He either plays sports games on the computer, or
>> watches sport on the TV, and has totally creased to play
>> in the more traditional sense. We don't want him to play
>> *all* the time, but when we try to make him do other things
>> he flies into a rage. So my question to the parents among
>> you is: what is your parental policy on video games?
>
>
>
> Speaking (typing? ;-) ) as a parent, it seems to me that the
> key words here are "totally obsessed". IMHO, I don't think any
> child (or adult for that matter) should be totally obsessed with
> _anything_! IME, setting limits is extremely important.
> The only question is how one does it.
> Stopping someone in the midst of something fun
> is guaranteed to evoke a strong negative reaction.
> IME, it's better to try and set limits ahead of time.
> (How much time will be allowed; how many levels of how many
> games,etc. Not forgetting to mention the penalties for
> trying to get away with more.) These decisions should be
> reached, as far as possible, by discussion with the child
> (it's possible, even at age 6 -- you just have to adapt the
> discussion to his level of comprehension).
> Then you must enforce, not the "rules" like a tyrant,
> but rather the _agreement_ (part of which, as stated above,
> is what happens if he breaks the agreement).
> This all has the added value of teaching him about the
> process of making and breaking agreements and the
> art of negotiation, things that will be valuable for him to
> know in the future!
That's a very good idea. Thanks a lot!
--
/BP 8^)
--
Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se
Solitudinem faciunt pacem appellant!
(Tacitus)
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Message: 16
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 13:10:21 +0300
From: "Isaac A. Penzev" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Information on future English language development?
Trebor Jung wrote:
> As for other conlangs based on English... I don't know of any,
There is an interesting project being born just in the process of
discussion:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/englesax
It is not a "future English", rather all the way round, but still an
intriguing conlang project.
-- Yitzik
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Message: 17
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 06:54:33 -0500
From: "Thomas R. Wier" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Naming your Language
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 15:31:35 -0400
From: scott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Naming your Language
> Just a quick question. I've been working on my conlang for a while now
> and have been using a word made up quite a while ago as the name of the
> language and the name of those who speak it. I've realized now it
> doesn't quite fit in with the language any more.
>
> How are some of the ways you have named your language and its speakers?
In my cases it's closely tied into the conculture. Phalera is a
satellite that orbits a gas giant in the Upsilon Andromedae system.
The currently most powerful ethnos is that descendent from the Xusu:ni
clan, who are themselves descendents of space-migrants. When they
seized power from the C'ali, one of their propaganda measures was
to rename their language as that of the planet, so as to remind
people of their claim to rule the entire governorate (=Phalera
plus two other small isolated populations in the system). I wrote
about this some time ago:
<http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0209A&L=conlang&P=R23959>
==========================================================================
Thomas Wier "I find it useful to meet my subjects personally,
Dept. of Linguistics because our secret police don't get it right
University of Chicago half the time." -- octogenarian Sheikh Zayed of
1010 E. 59th Street Abu Dhabi, to a French reporter.
Chicago, IL 60637
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Message: 18
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 06:54:25 -0500
From: "Thomas R. Wier" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Phoneme Analysis Question
From: Danny Wier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> From: "Jean-François Colson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > BTW How do you pronounce |it'd|? Do you insert a vowel between /t/ and /d/
> > or do you succeed to say
> > [Itd]?
>
> I say [' It @d]; I insert a vowel.
I'd say this as well. Another option I also use is deletion of the
/t/: [Id] = "it would". This is an interesting construction, since
Zwicky and Pullum would be forced to argue that its negation plus
_have_, videlicet "I'd'n'a" [I would not have], involves a clitic
being followed by an affix which is in turn being followed by a
clitic. Such constructions are predicted not to exist.
> Can you have a sequence of voiceless + voiced (or vice versa; likewise
> aspirated + unaspirated, ejective + non-ejective) without an intervening
> schwa? I'd think you'd either have to insert the vowel or assimilate the
> consonants.
Georgian shows that one can indeed have such sequences, but not
in final position like this. There, Georgian has obligatory final
devoicing like many languages.
==========================================================================
Thomas Wier "I find it useful to meet my subjects personally,
Dept. of Linguistics because our secret police don't get it right
University of Chicago half the time." -- octogenarian Sheikh Zayed of
1010 E. 59th Street Abu Dhabi, to a French reporter.
Chicago, IL 60637
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Message: 19
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 14:20:08 +0200
From: Philippe Caquant <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: OT: going offline
I'll be off for about ten days. Have a nice time !
=====
Philippe Caquant
Ceterum censeo *vi* esse oblitterandum (Me).
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Message: 20
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 16:34:02 +0200
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Naming your Language
Hi!
scott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>...
> How are some of the ways you have named your language and its speakers?
>...
My languages are named as follows:
"Fukhian" (or "Fuchisch" in German):
From the Fukhian word [fuX] meaning 'tongue, language'.
The Fukhian word for that particular language is [fuXif]
where [-if] is the ending for languages in general. So
the word [fuX] was particularized to also refer to the
people who speak it.
(Further, [fuX] was constructed to be the artificial positive
form of German 'Unfug' (leaving out 'Un-'), meaning 'nonsense',
which is pronounced ['Un,fu:X] in my dialect.)
"Tyl Sjok":
Means 'elegant language' and is exactly the Tyl Sjok name.
tyl [t1l] = elegant by being simple and easy
sjok [SVk] = language, to speak
"Q'eng|ai":
"q'-g|ai" (with falling tone on ai) is the stem that means
'Qeng|ai'. It exclusively refers to this very language and to
nothing else.
The root of that stem is "q'-g|-", which vaguely relates
to 'language, speaking, etc.'
The infix -e- marks predicative case.
So all my the language names are semantically related to "language".
(For S9, the name is preliminary, so I did not list it.)
**Henrik
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Message: 21
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 15:34:47 +0100
From: Joe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Information on future English language development?
Isaac A. Penzev wrote:
>Trebor Jung wrote:
>
>
>
>
>>As for other conlangs based on English... I don't know of any,
>>
>>
>
>There is an interesting project being born just in the process of
>discussion:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/englesax
>
>It is not a "future English", rather all the way round, but still an
>intriguing conlang project.
>
>
I've *tried* to do a future English many times, but I've never been
satisfied with the results. One thing I will say, though, is that
English will change more in the next fifty years than it has in the last
two hundred. In my opinion.
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Message: 22
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 17:25:33 +0200
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Looking for interesting ways to handle relative clauses.
Hi!
Remi Villatel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Trebor Jung wrote:
>
> > I can't think of any ideas for my conlangs' relative clauses besides these:
> > as in English, Turkish (participles), and Egyptian Arabic (resumptive
> > pronouns).
Natlang:
Chinese uses a 'genitive' construction:
wo he ni mai de cha.
I drink you buy 's tea.
'I drink the tea that you bought.'
Similarly in Japanese, I think with "no", but I'm not sure.
My Conlangs:
Subordination marker + resumptive pronouns (possibly more than one!):
Fukhian has resumptive pronouns. There may be more than one in one
relative clause, and the relative clause is not necessarily close to
the modified noun. The existence of a subordination on marked on the
subordinate verb. So you could say
see man.NOM woman.ACC loves.SUBORD he.REL her.REL.
'The man sees the woman [he loves her].'
It is quite impossible to translate this correctly into English, I
think. But maybe someone comes up with a good solution.
Embedding:
In Tyl Sjok you use the relative clause instead of the modified
noun, so you 'embed' the relative clause into the matrix clause.
The modified noun is found in the relative clause, where it is
optionally marked to be modified.
E.g.:
Matrix clause: I like tea. = 'I like the tea.'
Relative clause: you buy tea. = 'You bought tea.'
Together:
I like you buy tea. (unmarked referent)
I like you buy REF tea. (marked referent)
'I like the tea that you bought.'
Cases (don't hit me for this term!):
Q'eng|ai treats all words and clauses alike, namely as nouns, so
it simply marks a relative clause in a certain case. This is similar
to Remi's resumptive postpositions:
> Shaquelingua also has resumptive postpositions.
>
> They were working *at* I went. = I went where they were working.
>
> They were working *during* I entered. = I entered when they were working.
>
> You'll play *in order to* go outside! = Go outside to play!
Quite the same in Q'eng|ai, only 'during' and 'at' are expressed
by case:
LOC-go-PAST-(1p.AGT) PRD-working-PAST-(3p.AGT)
PER-entered-(1p.AGT) PRD-working-PAST-(3p.AGT)
PRD=predicative case
LOC=locative case
PER=perlative case
**Henrik
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Message: 23
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 17:21:01 +0100
From: Chris Bates <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Palatization and Lenition etc
I've been thinking.... In basque t, d, l, n after i generally become
palatized (although usually they're still written the same). If another
language did something similar to this, it seems to me you could get a
"softening" after certain prepositions similar to lenition if the change
could occur across word boundaries.
Example. Say I have a preposition "i" meaning... "to", "from", it
doesn't really matter. Then
i + tod -> i tyod
etc
I think this is how lenition started in welsh, as simple phonological
conditioning that later became grammatical as well (thanks to words
vanishing or being eroded maybe? I'd be interested to know the rule
about adjectives following feminine nouns undergoing lenition came
about). I don't see why a similar thing couldn't happen with
palatization like this over time, but as far as I know no celtic
language does this. Do you think its realistic?
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Message: 24
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 16:57:11 +0100
From: Simon Richard Clarkstone <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Information on future English language development?
Joe wrote:
> ... One thing I will say, though, is that
> English will change more in the next fifty years than it has in the last
> two hundred. In my opinion.
I only agree with you partly there. Due to increased global
communications, English could also be said to be changing less, as a
better connected language community makes change of language more
difficult: a new word will be very unlikely to spread fast enough to
last long. There is also a less convincing argument that since the
whole of humanity has been discovered, then we cannot meet up with new
peoples who give us new words; we have taken all of everyone's words
that we want.
However, the increased number of new types of things will lead to many
new names being needed for them, or adaptations of old words, or borrowings.
--
Simon Richard Clarkstone
[EMAIL PROTECTED] / [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Message: 25
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 17:41:14 +0100
From: Joe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Palatization and Lenition etc
Chris Bates wrote:
>
> I think this is how lenition started in welsh, as simple phonological
> conditioning that later became grammatical as well (thanks to words
> vanishing or being eroded maybe? I'd be interested to know the rule
> about adjectives following feminine nouns undergoing lenition came
> about). I don't see why a similar thing couldn't happen with
> palatization like this over time, but as far as I know no celtic
> language does this. Do you think its realistic?
>
>
Well, yes. It's generally seen as how the thing began.
The adjective after feminine noun(or, indeed, anything), came about
because feminine nouns ended in a vowel. As far as I know, intervocalic
consonants were softened in Welsh, largely ignoring word boundaries.
So, because most Masculine nouns ended in *'-os', and most Feminine in
*'-a', things following feminine nouns softened, and following masculine
nouns did not.
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