[conlang] Digest Number 8757

[conlang]

n clusters after coda consonants in languages that 
>have them?

I asked Roger about the mere existence of clusters like this once; he then 
asked the An-lang list, and got some responses in the thread starting at 
  http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind1005&L=AN-LANG&F=&S=&P=1143
(Be aware that the thread crosses a month boundary!  Stupid stupid listserv 
archives, with "next" not working across such boundaries.)

>PS: Something which I'd very much appreciate, would be a typology of diachrony 
>akin to WALS - and if one dislikes phonology, it could be done for grammar as 
>well...

Seconded!

Alex





Messages in this topic (5)


3a. letter for 'th'
Posted by: "And Rosta" and.ro...@gmail.com 
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2012 9:24 am ((PDT))

Which of the following is the least rebarbative choice of grapheme for a 
phoneme whose primary allophone is [T] ('th' in _thin_), that eternal conlang 
favourite? Choices are:

c (with or without overdot or underdot)
d with underdot (where d without underdot is voiced [D])
x
h with underdot (where h without underdot is [h, X, x])

My preference would be for C, but I remember what explosions of disgust from 
listfreres my former use of  for /N/ (now ) engendered, with 
particular stridor and decrepitation resounding from the west coast or Ireland.

--And.





Messages in this topic (3)

3b. Re: letter for 'th'
Posted by: "A. da Mek" a.da_m...@ufoni.cz 
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2012 9:49 am ((PDT))

> Which of the following is the least rebarbative choice of grapheme for a 
> phoneme whose primary allophone is [T] ('th' in _thin_)

Why not simply <þ> or the digraph ? 





Messages in this topic (3)

3c. Re: letter for 'th'
Posted by: "Jörg Rhiemeier" joerg_rhieme...@web.de 
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2012 10:09 am ((PDT))

Hallo conlangers!

On Monday 03 September 2012 18:24:35 And Rosta wrote:

> Which of the following is the least rebarbative choice of grapheme for a
> phoneme whose primary allophone is [T] ('th' in _thin_), that eternal
> conlang favourite? Choices are:
> 
> c (with or without overdot or underdot)
> d with underdot (where d without underdot is voiced [D])
> x
> h with underdot (where h without underdot is [h, X, x])
> 
> My preference would be for C, but I remember what explosions of disgust
> from listfreres my former use of  for /N/ (now )
> engendered, with particular stridor and decrepitation resounding from the
> west coast or Ireland.

Your question cannot be answered without knowing the phonology
of your language and the other spelling conventions you are going
to use.  Does the language have /D/, does it have /z/, does it
have ... ?

_c_ seems fine, _d_ with underdot suggests something voiced;
_x_ and _h_ with underdot are things which I would not even
consider for the consonant in question as they are both commonly
associated with consonants farther back in the mouth.  If you
use _h_ without underdot for [h~X~x], using the same letter with
underdot for [T] seems bizarre.

--
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
"Bêsel asa Éam, a Éam atha cvanthal a cvanth atha Éamal." - SiM 1:1





Messages in this topic (3)


4.1. Re: Real names
Posted by: "Roger Mills" romi...@yahoo.com 
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2012 10:04 am ((PDT))

--- On Sat, 9/1/12, Padraic Brown  wrote:
The role of the cover art is simple and clear-cut:
hook the potential buyer and turn him into an actual buyer! This is why
they put sexy girls on car hoods and coke commercials. Sexy girls sell
products and it's really no different for books.
==

Sexy men sell things too!! I don't think I would ever have bought Edgar 
Pangborn's "Davy" is he title/cover figure hadn't been a hunky young man in a 
loin cloth with a distinctive long shadow in the crotch area...which of 
course turned out to be one of Davy's attributes. It was a very good read, and 
led me into a lot more of Pangborn's work. (He was a closeted gay, 30s and 
later vintage, and most of his stories manage to work in gay themes.)

Back in the 70s I bought another SF book because of its cover-- another hunky 
guy or two, barely clothed...It had to do with primitive people from an 
alt-human world who somehow appeared in our world. When I had my yard sale on 
leaving Ohio, two teenage girls got a good giggle out of that cover and bought 
the book :-)))

One memorable and timely-b

[conlang] Digest Number 8758

[conlang]

othing to say to me; but
> I hear my friend say that any manner of love is good if
> there's kindness in it'

Hear hear! Now, I'm going to have to look into this...

> First published in 1974, reprinted in "Still I persist in
> wondering", Dell paperback, 1978.

Padraic
 





Messages in this topic (109)

3.2. Re: Real names
Posted by: "Roger Mills" romi...@yahoo.com 
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2012 12:21 pm ((PDT))

--- On Mon, 9/3/12, Padraic Brown  wrote:
> > I'm not aware of it [Pinoy] being a pejorative. Both missus
> > and me were surprised by this. Inday thinks it might be a
> > Fil-Am thing, perhaps a sort of "I'm not Pinoy (anymore)"
> > attitude of superiority that some immigrants and 
> > first generation folks might have. No Pinoy I've met has
> > ever indicated that it is a pejorative term.
> 
RM: > I've noticed that it's often used non-pejor. on website and
> postings by Filipinos, so  suspect you are right. Actually
> I got the impression it was pejor. from a friend who was
> Fil/Span+Ital, from a very wealthy family; he was so
> Americanized that I suppose he needed to deprecate his Phil.
> roots. 

That helps confirm what my wife thinks is going on. If it's not too
sensitive a topic, it might be interesting to ask why he feels "Pinoy" is
such a derogatory term.

> It also annoyed him immensely if people took him to be Chinese.

Heh. Well, I don't think all Chinese look alike; but neither do I think
there is a definitive "Chinese" vs. "Pinoy" vs. "Vietnamese" look. It can
be hard to tell, and maybe he looks a little Inchik?

RM After my year in Vietnam, I managed to distinguish them from Chinese, in 
that Chin. were usually taller and lighter skinned. Same in Indonesia, plus the 
eyes. Many Chin. in Indonesia took very Sanskrit-like names (not a la 
Javanese);I noticed this is obituaries, when it gave the persons parents, who 
still had Chinese names. The  Dutch and the Chinese got along quite well in 
colonial days --"you could do business with them"-- but after independece, the 
Chinese tended to suffer discrimination.

Filipinos (and people from North Sulawesi, which was probably populated by PI 
type people [they also speak PI type languages]), are indeed hard to place. I 
knew a man (as well as his sister) who originated in N.Sul. and would not have 
looked out of place in the streets of NYC or Chicago (I suspect there was some 
Dutch in the mixture, as in quite a few Indonesians from certain areas). OTOH I 
knew two guys in Ann Arbor-- Dutch father, Javanese mother--whom I first took 
to be Native Americans!!!
==

I've noticed that when people ask where my wife is from, the choices tend
to be China, Vietnam, Korea and Japan -- as if there were only four
countries with which to associate with Asia. Granted the Philippines is
about as different an Asian country you can get, being Catholic and
still terribly pro-America / Western oriented (occidented??), so maybe
people think it's not quite Asian? WWII vets almost always guess right --
perhaps because of some familiarity with the people. I can usually pick
a Pinoy out of the mix, but sometimes my guesses turn out to be Indonesian
or Thai.

RM again, a lot of probably early Chinese, later Spanish and even later 
American mixture. I love what I'the Filipinos say about their own country: 300 
years in the convent, 100 years in Hollywood.





Messages in this topic (109)


4a. Re: letter for 'th'
Posted by: "Arnt Richard Johansen" a...@nvg.org 
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2012 12:31 pm ((PDT))

On Mon, Sep 03, 2012 at 05:24:35PM +0100, And Rosta wrote:
> Which of the following is the least rebarbative choice of grapheme for a 
> phoneme whose primary allophone is [T] ('th' in _thin_), that eternal conlang 
> favourite? Choices are:
>
> c (with or without overdot or underdot)
> d with underdot (where d without underdot is voiced [D])
> x
> h with underdot (where h without underdot is [h, X, x])

I think all available options are quite eccentric, but c is perhaps the least 
strange. It intimates both voicelessness and a coronal POA, the latter of which 
applies to none of the other options.

As for the under-dot I would usually assume that it means retroflexion, as in 
Indic transcription.

-- 
Arnt Richard Johansenhttp://arj.nvg.org/
Taboos abound in almost any aspect of Tuvan life. [...] To name an
example: the introduction of the Latin alphabet in 1930 was also
believed to impose a threat 

[conlang] Digest Number 8759

[conlang]

There are 15 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Bernard Comrie, The World's Major Languages, 2ed (2011)
From: Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets
1b. Re: Bernard Comrie, The World's Major Languages, 2ed (2011)
From: Garth Wallace

2a. Re: A Portrait of the Conlanger as a Young Man
From: Roger Mills
2b. Re: A Portrait of the Conlanger as a Young Man
From: Daniel Bowman
2c. Re: A Portrait of the Conlanger as a Young Man
From: And Rosta
2d. Re: A Portrait of the Conlanger as a Young Man
From: Daniel Bowman

3a. Re: Dessert
From: G. van der Vegt

4a. Re: letter for 'th'
From: And Rosta

5a. multi-lang-conlang?
From: Matthew DeBlock
5b. Re: multi-lang-conlang?
From: Padraic Brown
5c. Re: multi-lang-conlang?
From: Gary Shannon
5d. Re: multi-lang-conlang?
From: Patrick Dunn
5e. Re: multi-lang-conlang?
From: Matthew DeBlock

6a. Re: On the Creation of Language
From: Daniel Bowman

7. OT: Stød
From: Brian Woodward


Messages

1a. Re: Bernard Comrie, The World's Major Languages, 2ed (2011)
Posted by: "Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets" tsela...@gmail.com 
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2012 4:08 pm ((PDT))

On 4 September 2012 00:47, Garth Wallace  wrote:

>
> I didn't know about "kisama". We've got the euphemism treadmill;would
> that be the sarcasm treadmill?
>
>
Seems to be what happened in Norwegian as well, and I could very well see
it happening to Dutch too :) .

As for "kisama", it started as an honorific pronoun used by samurai to
refer to their opponent. Loosen the respect for the enemy and the evolution
of the pronoun is obvious :) .


> "Omae" sticks in my head because of the shift from first to second
> person along the way.
>
>
Related to "omae" is "temee", originally "temae". It started as a humble
first-person pronoun, and is now a very rude second-person pronoun. Its
evolution parallels that of "omae", except that "omae" can still be used in
some cases without sounding rude, while "temee" is an insult even among
close friends.


> > And don't forget that "otaku" was originally a formal second-person
> pronoun
> > (a polite way of saying "your house", again with the honorific "o-"), but
> > has now become a noun referring to a specific type of geek hobbyist :)
> (an
> > example of Japanese's lack of formal distinction between plain nouns and
> > pronouns: they tend to switch from one use to the other with time).
>
> True. "Otaku" is interesting because it was already fairly archaic by
> the time its meaning changed. Japanese geeks started using this
> obsolete second-person pronoun amongst themselves as an affectation
> (English-speaking geeks have been known to do something similar, I
> think inspired by fantasy fiction and roleplaying),


You mean using "thou"?


> and so other
> people started using it as a (somewhat pejorative) term for them.
>

And then the otaku themselves stopped using that word as a pronoun, but
reappropriated themselves the word "otaku" as a self-description without
the pejorative meaning, in a process not unlike the use of "queer" among
gay people, or the use of the n-word among some black communities.

Such words don't go full circle, they create spirals!
-- 
Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.

http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/





Messages in this topic (11)

1b. Re: Bernard Comrie, The World's Major Languages, 2ed (2011)
Posted by: "Garth Wallace" gwa...@gmail.com 
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2012 4:52 pm ((PDT))

On Mon, Sep 3, 2012 at 4:08 PM, Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets
 wrote:
> On 4 September 2012 00:47, Garth Wallace  wrote:
>
>>
>> I didn't know about "kisama". We've got the euphemism treadmill;would
>> that be the sarcasm treadmill?
>>
>>
> Seems to be what happened in Norwegian as well, and I could very well see
> it happening to Dutch too :) .
>
> As for "kisama", it started as an honorific pronoun used by samurai to
> refer to their opponent. Loosen the respect for the enemy and the evolution
> of the pronoun is obvious :) .
>
>
>> "Omae" sticks in my head because of the shift from first to second
>> person along the way.
>>
>>
> Related to "omae" is "temee", originally "temae". It started as a humble
> first-person pronoun, and is now a very rude second-person pronoun. Its
> e

[conlang] Digest Number 8760

[conlang]

There are 15 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: multi-lang-conlang?
From: Matthew DeBlock
1b. Re: multi-lang-conlang?
From: Allison Swenson
1c. Re: multi-lang-conlang?
From: p...@phillipdriscoll.com
1d. Re: multi-lang-conlang?
From: Padraic Brown

2a. Re: Dessert
From: Shair Ahmed

3a. Re: Bernard Comrie, The World's Major Languages, 2ed (2011)
From: Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets

4a. Re: letter for 'th'
From: Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets

5a. Re: A Portrait of the Conlanger as a Young Man
From: Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets

6a. Bowery Boys
From: Douglas Koller
6b. Re: Bowery Boys
From: taliesin the storyteller
6c. Re: Bowery Boys
From: Douglas Koller
6d. Re: Bowery Boys
From: Daniel Prohaska

7a. Re: Diachronic changes of prenasalized stops
From: Roman Rausch

8a. Politeness changes
From: taliesin the storyteller
8b. Re: Politeness changes
From: George Corley


Messages

1a. Re: multi-lang-conlang?
Posted by: "Matthew DeBlock" vas...@dscript.ca 
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2012 8:39 pm ((PDT))

actually the needednt even be indexed.

the double letter combinations could be grouped, a group per langauge.

you wouldnt even necesarilly need to involve all altter combos in the
grouping, just enough to ensure one almost always pops up in that
languages vocab(or even just in areas where the is interlinguistic
ambiguity)

Then it would be like swtiching beween "combination rules" to identify the
words orgin language

> code-switching yes
>
> it would be quite easy, say is "come" is written is form A is is spanish i
> eat, is another form it is english come.
>
> You could do this with notation, but my point is with dscript each word
> already has many forms, they could be indexed.
>
> or even just used to clarify ambiguity in current sigle language vocab.
>
> But right now im wodering if there are any I should look at, I'm less into
> the actual conlang side, more into the conscript side.
>
> Perhaps there is a system already developed I could just apply Dscript on
> top of.
>
>> I'd peg that as code-switching, rather than Spanglish.
>>
>> Spanglish has separate vocabulary, like "la lunche" for the midday meal.
>>
>> (I think it's feminine -- I don't recall; someone on this list will
>> probably know more than I do about it.  That's the usual pattern.  :)  )
>>
>> --Patrick
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 3, 2012 at 10:13 PM, Gary Shannon  wrote:
>>
>>> Spanglish?
>>>
>>> I was in the store a few days ago and heard a woman say "Tengo some
>>> cookies
>>> por los kids." That's about as mixed as you can get!
>>>
>>> --gary
>>>
>>> On Mon, Sep 3, 2012 at 7:22 PM, Matthew DeBlock 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> > Anyone played with combining multiple languages? Not sure what the
>>> > approach is usually
>>> >
>>> > Just been musing an idea, i imagine a big problem is duplicate
>>> > words/spelling
>>> >
>>> > I have be playing with Dscript, and I think by using different
>>> "form"(each
>>> > word has multiple permutations of writing form possibilities)
>>> duplicate
>>> > words would not be such an issue.
>>> >
>>> > Granted spoken would have ambiguity, this i suppose could be solved
>>> by
>>> > spoken language rules, but spoken has never been my strength or focus
>>> >
>>> > but the written form would be clear. kinda like chinese with the
>>> written
>>> > form beiing capabale for more defintion and vocabulary than the
>>> spoken
>>> form.
>>> >
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Second Person, a chapbook of poetry by Patrick Dunn, is now available
>> for
>> order from Finishing Line
>> Press<http://www.finishinglinepress.com/NewReleasesandForthcomingTitles.htm>
>> and
>> Amazon<http://www.amazon.com/Second-Person-Patrick-Dunn/dp/1599249065/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1324342341&sr=8-2>.
>>
>





Messages in this topic (9)

1b. Re: multi-lang-conlang?
Posted by: "Allison Swenson" jlon...@gmail.com 
Date: Tue Sep 4, 2012 5:17 am ((PDT))

Code-switching or Spanglish as feminine? I've heard code-switching, at
least, from both men and women fairly regularly, but of course an anecdote
does not a general rule

[conlang] Digest Number 8761

[conlang]

There are 9 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Bernard Comrie, The World's Major Languages, 2ed (2011)
From: Patrick Dunn

2a. Re: A Portrait of the Conlanger as a Young Man
From: Roger Mills

3a. Re: multi-lang-conlang?
From: Charles W Brickner
3b. Re: multi-lang-conlang?
From: Gary Shannon
3c. Re: multi-lang-conlang?
From: Allison Swenson
3d. Re: multi-lang-conlang?
From: Patrick Dunn

4a. Re: letter for 'th'
From: Michael Everson

5a. Re: OT: Stød
From: Michael Everson

6a. Re: OT: Stød
From: And Rosta


Messages

1a. Re: Bernard Comrie, The World's Major Languages, 2ed (2011)
Posted by: "Patrick Dunn" pwd...@gmail.com 
Date: Tue Sep 4, 2012 8:34 am ((PDT))

Huh.  Are pronouns in Japanese entire noun phrases, as they are in English?


That might indicate a difference between, say, boku used as a noun and boku
used as a pronoun.



On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 1:36 AM, Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets <
tsela...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 4 September 2012 01:52, Garth Wallace  wrote:
>
> > >>
> > > Related to "omae" is "temee", originally "temae". It started as a
> humble
> > > first-person pronoun, and is now a very rude second-person pronoun. Its
> > > evolution parallels that of "omae", except that "omae" can still be
> used
> > in
> > > some cases without sounding rude, while "temee" is an insult even among
> > > close friends.
> >
> > I didn't even realize "temee" was a pronoun! I thought it was a
> > general insult, like "yarō".
> >
> >
> Well, since the term "pronoun" in Japanese isn't that meaningful, it
> doesn't make much of a difference. I mean, even a common pronoun like
> "boku" (did you know that it can be used as a second-person pronoun as well
> as a first-person pronoun, when talking to young kids?) is still used as a
> noun meaning "manservant", not to mention the very common "kare": "he" and
> "kanojo": "she", which can also mean respectively "boyfriend" and
> "girlfriend" (as generic nouns). The last ones are a recent development,
> which shows that even in modern Japanese the distinction between pronoun
> and noun is weak at best.
>
> Personally, I believe that Japanese doesn't have a grammatical category of
> "pronouns" separate from the general category of nouns. "Pronoun" is rather
> a *function*, that can be taken by various nouns (and maybe even *any*
> noun, in the right context). Some nouns are most often used as pronouns
> (like "watashi" and "anata"), some can be used as pronouns or as simple
> nouns roughly 50-50 (like the examples above), while others may not take
> the pronoun function that often, but that's purely a matter of semantics,
> not of grammatical differences (it's quite natural for terms referring to
> people to be used as pronouns, but a bit less obvious why this should
> happen for a word like "shinkansen" for instance :P. However, I don't
> believe there is any *grammatical* rule in Japanese forbidding one to use
> "shinkansen" as a pronoun).
>
> It's a bit like adjectives in my own Moten: they don't exist as a separate
> category from nouns, but any noun can be used as an adjective simply by
> virtue of its position in the noun phrase. And whether a noun is commonly
> or rarely used as an adjective is purely a matter of its meaning and
> nothing else.
>
>
> > >
> > > And then the otaku themselves stopped using that word as a pronoun, but
> > > reappropriated themselves the word "otaku" as a self-description
> without
> > > the pejorative meaning, in a process not unlike the use of "queer"
> among
> > > gay people, or the use of the n-word among some black communities.
> > >
> > > Such words don't go full circle, they create spirals!
> >
> > Though as I understand it, it's still pejorative when used by
> > non-otaku. Which is pretty consistent with other disparaging terms
> > adopted by the groups they were meant to insult: okay when used within
> > the in-group, but offensive otherwise.
> >
>
> Exactly.
> --
> Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.
>
> http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
> http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/
>



-- 
Second Person, a chapbook of poetry by Patrick Dunn, is now available for
order from Finishing Line
Press<http:

[conlang] Digest Number 8762

[conlang]

There are 15 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: A Portrait of the Conlanger as a Young Man
From: Amanda Babcock Furrow
1b. Re: A Portrait of the Conlanger as a Young Man
From: Daniel Bowman
1c. Re: A Portrait of the Conlanger as a Young Man
From: Tony Harris
1d. Re: A Portrait of the Conlanger as a Young Man
From: Adam Walker

2a. Re: letter for 'th'
From: Cíat Ó Gáibhtheacháin
2b. Re: letter for 'th'
From: Tony Harris
2c. Re: letter for 'th'
From: Kelvin Jackson
2d. Re: letter for 'th'
From: Tony Harris
2e. Re: letter for 'th'
From: And Rosta

3. Calvin and Hobbes on Semantics
From: Gary Shannon

4a. Re: multi-lang-conlang?
From: Roger Mills

5a. Pronoun systems that don't mark person?
From: Daniel Burgener
5b. Re: Pronoun systems that don't mark person?
From: George Corley

6a. Re: Bernard Comrie, The World's Major Languages, 2ed (2011)
From: Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets

7.1. Re: Real names
From: Adam Walker


Messages

1a. Re: A Portrait of the Conlanger as a Young Man
Posted by: "Amanda Babcock Furrow" la...@quandary.org 
Date: Tue Sep 4, 2012 11:34 am ((PDT))

On Mon, Sep 03, 2012 at 08:42:59PM -0400, Daniel Bowman wrote:

> So I did my first real work on Angosey when I was 12, but I didn't actually
> make it into a coherent language until I was 16.  I translated the poem
> with "your eyes are like an ocean..." when I was 17.

12-going-on-13 is a magical age.  That's also when I started my language, 
and 13-going-on-14 is when I rehauled it to have the first inklings of 
non-relexed-English grammar.

tylakèhlpë'fö,
Amanda





Messages in this topic (13)

1b. Re: A Portrait of the Conlanger as a Young Man
Posted by: "Daniel Bowman" danny.c.bow...@gmail.com 
Date: Tue Sep 4, 2012 12:21 pm ((PDT))

>
> 12-going-on-13 is a magical age.
>

I think that's about when you start realizing how big the world really is.





Messages in this topic (13)

1c. Re: A Portrait of the Conlanger as a Young Man
Posted by: "Tony Harris" t...@alurhsa.org 
Date: Tue Sep 4, 2012 12:41 pm ((PDT))

That does seem like a common pattern.  I also began working on 
conlanging at 12, and began work on Alurhsa at about 13.

On 09/04/2012 02:34 PM, Amanda Babcock Furrow wrote:
> On Mon, Sep 03, 2012 at 08:42:59PM -0400, Daniel Bowman wrote:
>
>> So I did my first real work on Angosey when I was 12, but I didn't actually
>> make it into a coherent language until I was 16.  I translated the poem
>> with "your eyes are like an ocean..." when I was 17.
> 12-going-on-13 is a magical age.  That's also when I started my language,
> and 13-going-on-14 is when I rehauled it to have the first inklings of
> non-relexed-English grammar.
>
> tylakèhlpë'fö,
> Amanda





Messages in this topic (13)

1d. Re: A Portrait of the Conlanger as a Young Man
Posted by: "Adam Walker" carra...@gmail.com 
Date: Tue Sep 4, 2012 3:17 pm ((PDT))

I started my frist language a week or two before my 12th birthday.  I know
this because I started it while my mother was in the hospital for a few
weeks leading up to the birth of my youngest brother two days after I
turned 12.  This is also why one of the first words coined was elorot
meaning elevator and composed of the words el meaning up and orot meaning
down -- because the elevators took me to and from my mother on visits.  So
I am fast approaching the 29th aniversary of my initiation into the secret
vice.  And Carrajina, my longest active project, is now 10 years old,
sometime this month IIRC.

Adam

On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 2:41 PM, Tony Harris  wrote:

> That does seem like a common pattern.  I also began working on conlanging
> at 12, and began work on Alurhsa at about 13.
>
>
> On 09/04/2012 02:34 PM, Amanda Babcock Furrow wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Sep 03, 2012 at 08:42:59PM -0400, Daniel Bowman wrote:
>>
>> So I did my first real work on Angosey when I was 12, but I didn't
>>> actually
>>> make it into a coherent language until I was 16.  I translated the poem
>>> with "your eyes are like an ocean..." when I was 17.
>>>
>> 12-going-on-13 is a magical age.  That's also when I started my language,
>> and 13-going-on-14 is when I rehauled it to have the first inklings of
>> non-relexed-English grammar.
>>
>> tylakčhlpė'f

[conlang] Digest Number 8763

[conlang]

There are 15 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: letter for 'th'
From: Tony Harris
1b. Re: letter for 'th'
From: Alex Fink
1c. Re: letter for 'th'
From: Michael Everson

2a. Re: A Portrait of the Conlanger as a Young Man
From: Virginia Keys

3a. Re: Pronoun systems that don't mark person?
From: Alex Fink
3b. Re: Pronoun systems that don't mark person?
From: And Rosta
3c. Re: Pronoun systems that don't mark person?
From: neo gu

4a. Re: Bernard Comrie, The World's Major Languages, 2ed (2011)
From: Patrick Dunn
4b. Re: Bernard Comrie, The World's Major Languages, 2ed (2011)
From: Cíat Ó Gáibhtheacháin
4c. Re: Bernard Comrie, The World's Major Languages, 2ed (2011)
From: Patrick Dunn
4d. Re: Bernard Comrie, The World's Major Languages, 2ed (2011)
From: Padraic Brown
4e. Re: Bernard Comrie, The World's Major Languages, 2ed (2011)
From: George Corley
4f. Re: Bernard Comrie, The World's Major Languages, 2ed (2011)
From: Garth Wallace
4g. Re: Bernard Comrie, The World's Major Languages, 2ed (2011)
From: Padraic Brown
4h. Re: Bernard Comrie, The World's Major Languages, 2ed (2011)
From: Padraic Brown


Messages

1a. Re: letter for 'th'
Posted by: "Tony Harris" t...@alurhsa.org 
Date: Tue Sep 4, 2012 5:14 pm ((PDT))

Is  in use?  You could always go with the Castillian option and use C 
(before i or e) and Z, or Z alone, to cover [T].

On 09/04/2012 07:31 PM, And Rosta wrote:
> Michael Everson, On 04/09/2012 17:17:
>> On 3 Sep 2012, at 09:24, And Rosta wrote:
>>> Which of the following is the least rebarbative choice of grapheme
>>> for a phoneme whose primary allophone is [T] ('th' in _thin_), that
>>> eternal conlang favourite?
>>
>> I can only recommend the letter þ.
>
> Tony Harris, On 04/09/2012 19:47:
>> Personally I would prefer to use þ (thorn) for [T],
>
> þ would be my preference too, but I cannot think of a historically 
> plausible explanation for Livagian using it.  (Tho see below.)
>
> Cíat Ó Gáibhtheacháin [Amazing name! How's it pronounced?]
>> What value does  have with or without the under dot?
>
>  without dot is a coronal plosive whose default realization is [d]; 
>  with dot is an alveolar click (with [N] accompaniment).
>
>>   is certainly the least arbitrary looking of the lot, but it's
>> still not great. Is there any reason you can't use someone a little
>> less odd?
>
> I'm assuming that the available stock of letters is the Latin 
> alphabet, augmented, out of necessity, by ash and letters with over- 
> and/or under- dots. I haven't been able to find anything less odd. I 
> have a rule that an overdot can't occur with a letter whose roman or 
> italic minuscule sometimes has an ascender and an underdot can't occur 
> with a letter whose roman or italic minuscule sometimes has a 
> descender -- not counting fancy swashy italics (so z can have an 
> underdot but f and s can't). This rule must, I guess, have developed 
> with the maturation of minuscules and Renaissance lettering. If the 
> dot diacritics antedate the standardization of ascenders and 
> descenders, then perhaps /T/ was originally T-overdot, but this in 
> time came to fall foul of the "no overdot when there's an ascender" 
> rule (& indeed, Livagian does not allow -overdot, even tho most 
> permitted combos of letters and over- and under- dot are assigned some 
> orthographic function), which led to the search for
> a replacement letter, in which case by this time (Renaissance) thorn, 
> altho no longer used,  would be available to be borrowed. But I think 
> Livagians would have been perfectly happy to use C; it's only the rest 
> of us that feel uncomfortable with C and want thorn instead.
>
> --And.





Messages in this topic (19)

1b. Re: letter for 'th'
Posted by: "Alex Fink" 000...@gmail.com 
Date: Tue Sep 4, 2012 5:35 pm ((PDT))

On Wed, 5 Sep 2012 00:31:10 +0100, And Rosta  wrote:

>I'm assuming that the available stock of letters is the Latin alphabet, 
>augmented, out of necessity, by ash and letters with over- and/or under- dots. 
>I haven't been able to find anything less odd. I have a rule that an overdot 
>can't occur with a letter whose roman or italic minuscule sometimes has an 
>ascender and an underdot can't occur with a letter whose roman or italic 
>minuscule sometimes has a descender -- not countin

[conlang] Digest Number 8764

[conlang]

There are 15 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: multi-lang-conlang?
From: Herman Miller
1b. Re: multi-lang-conlang?
From: Matthew DeBlock

2a. Re: A Portrait of the Conlanger as a Young Man
From: Herman Miller
2b. Re: A Portrait of the Conlanger as a Young Man
From: Anthony Miles

3a. Re: Dessert
From: Douglas Koller
3b. Re: Dessert
From: Daniel Prohaska

4a. Re: Bernard Comrie, The World's Major Languages, 2ed (2011)
From: Eric Christopherson
4b. Re: Bernard Comrie, The World's Major Languages, 2ed (2011)
From: Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets
4c. Re: Bernard Comrie, The World's Major Languages, 2ed (2011)
From: Padraic Brown
4d. Re: Bernard Comrie, The World's Major Languages, 2ed (2011)
From: Cíat Ó Gáibhtheacháin

5a. Re: letter for 'th'
From: Wesley Parish
5b. Re: letter for 'th'
From: A. da Mek
5c. Re: letter for 'th'
From: David McCann

6a. Re: Pronoun systems that don't mark person?
From: Anthony Miles

7a. Re: Language Academies for Your Conlang
From: Anthony Miles


Messages
____
1a. Re: multi-lang-conlang?
Posted by: "Herman Miller" hmil...@prismnet.com 
Date: Tue Sep 4, 2012 8:57 pm ((PDT))

On 9/3/2012 10:22 PM, Matthew DeBlock wrote:
> Anyone played with combining multiple languages? Not sure what the
> approach is usually

Minza has vocabulary from multiple languages, mainly Lindiga, Tirelat, 
and Zharranh. But the morphology and syntax are basically from Lindiga 
(in a simplified form).





Messages in this topic (16)
____
1b. Re: multi-lang-conlang?
Posted by: "Matthew DeBlock" vas...@dscript.ca 
Date: Tue Sep 4, 2012 9:41 pm ((PDT))

> On 9/3/2012 10:22 PM, Matthew DeBlock wrote:
>> Anyone played with combining multiple languages? Not sure what the
>> approach is usually
>
> Minza has vocabulary from multiple languages, mainly Lindiga, Tirelat,
> and Zharranh. But the morphology and syntax are basically from Lindiga
> (in a simplified form).
>
hmm.. ok.. looks interesting.. but any using large languages
(english+Spanish, French+Spanish, etc..)?





Messages in this topic (16)


2a. Re: A Portrait of the Conlanger as a Young Man
Posted by: "Herman Miller" hmil...@prismnet.com 
Date: Tue Sep 4, 2012 9:16 pm ((PDT))

On 9/4/2012 2:34 PM, Amanda Babcock Furrow wrote:
> On Mon, Sep 03, 2012 at 08:42:59PM -0400, Daniel Bowman wrote:
>
>> So I did my first real work on Angosey when I was 12, but I didn't actually
>> make it into a coherent language until I was 16.  I translated the poem
>> with "your eyes are like an ocean..." when I was 17.
>
> 12-going-on-13 is a magical age.  That's also when I started my language,
> and 13-going-on-14 is when I rehauled it to have the first inklings of
> non-relexed-English grammar.
>
> tylakèhlpë'fö,
> Amanda

Coincidentally, 12 going on 13 is about what my age was when I saw Star 
Wars for the first time, which I've credited with giving me the idea for 
making languages. I suppose if it wasn't Star Wars, eventually I would 
have got the idea from reading Tolkien. But I don't have any actual 
notes dated from as early as 1977, and I'm not sure exactly when I 
started on Olaetian.





Messages in this topic (16)

2b. Re: A Portrait of the Conlanger as a Young Man
Posted by: "Anthony Miles" mamercu...@gmail.com 
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2012 7:53 am ((PDT))

I read Tolkien at 11-12, and bought the Klingon Dictionary at 12-13. I also 
started Latin class at 12. I learned some basic phonetics from Tolkien and a 
Sanskrit consonant chart, and wrote my first ugly ugly Latin relex at 13-14. My 
first proper conlang, naRenga Ri, I started around 15-16.





Messages in this topic (16)


3a. Re: Dessert
Posted by: "Douglas Koller" douglaskol...@hotmail.com 
Date: Tue Sep 4, 2012 9:19 pm ((PDT))








> Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2012 09:35:11 -0400
> From: caeruleancent...@yahoo.com
> Subject: Dessert
> To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
 
> Travlang’s Word of the Day (9/3/12) (travlang.com/wordofday) is 
> “dessert”.  Many languages use some form of that word.  A few use some 
> form of “dolce” (Greek “γλυκά”).  German, Dutch and Afrikaans 
> use a

[conlang] Digest Number 8765

[conlang]

There are 2 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: A Portrait of the Conlanger as a Young Man
From: Jörg Rhiemeier

2a. Re: Bowery Boys
From: Jörg Rhiemeier


Messages

1a. Re: A Portrait of the Conlanger as a Young Man
Posted by: "Jörg Rhiemeier" joerg_rhieme...@web.de 
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2012 9:41 am ((PDT))

Hallo conlangers!

On Wednesday 05 September 2012 06:16:20 Herman Miller wrote:

> On 9/4/2012 2:34 PM, Amanda Babcock Furrow wrote:
> > On Mon, Sep 03, 2012 at 08:42:59PM -0400, Daniel Bowman wrote:
> >> So I did my first real work on Angosey when I was 12, but I didn't
> >> actually make it into a coherent language until I was 16.  I translated
> >> the poem with "your eyes are like an ocean..." when I was 17.
> > 
> > 12-going-on-13 is a magical age.  That's also when I started my language,
> > and 13-going-on-14 is when I rehauled it to have the first inklings of
> > non-relexed-English grammar.
> > 
> > tylakèhlpë'fö,
> > Amanda
> 
> Coincidentally, 12 going on 13 is about what my age was when I saw Star
> Wars for the first time, which I've credited with giving me the idea for
> making languages. I suppose if it wasn't Star Wars, eventually I would
> have got the idea from reading Tolkien. But I don't have any actual
> notes dated from as early as 1977, and I'm not sure exactly when I
> started on Olaetian.

Like so many of us, I was 12 when two important events regarding
my conlanging career happened.  I started learning Latin in
school, and was attracted by its rich and colourful inflectional
paradigms - what a contrast against the pallor of the paradigms
of German, where case is often only marked on the article and
subject pronouns are mandatory because the verb forms aren't
clear enough (let alone the almost complete absence of inflection
in English, which I had started learning two years earlier)!
This language was the main source of inspiration for my conlangs
for many years to come!

Also, I read _The Hobbit_ (in German translation), and _The Lord
of the Rings_ (also in German translation) shortly thereafter.

I also seem to remember that 12 was the age when I embarked on
my first conlang project.  It was an auxlang(!), cannot remember
the name and therefore call this project "Homu" now, after its
word for 'human being'.  All I remember (and probably pretty
much all that has ever been fixed) was that I'd use Latin word
roots and a gender system in which nouns denoting male beings
ended in -o, nouns denoting female beings ended in -a, and nouns
denoting beings of either sex or things to which no sex could
be ascribed ended in -u.  This resulted in triads such as:

_homo_ 'human male'
_homa_ 'human female'
_homu_ 'human being of either sex'

Pretty much as in Novial (which I didn't know then), only that
Novial has -e for 'either sex, or none'.  I used similar gender
systems in several later conlangs, including Old Albic.

I no longer have much material on the conlangs that I made up
in the following years, though I found some inflectional
paradigms of one language just yesterday.

Old Albic began in 2001, when I decided to discontinue the
Sindarin-based Nur-ellen language which I had started the year
before, and build something of my own.

--
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
"Bêsel asa Éam, a Éam atha cvanthal a cvanth atha Éamal." - SiM 1:1





Messages in this topic (17)


2a. Re: Bowery Boys
Posted by: "Jörg Rhiemeier" joerg_rhieme...@web.de 
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2012 10:05 am ((PDT))

Hallo conlangers!

On Tuesday 04 September 2012 12:49:31 Daniel Prohaska wrote:

>  'officialese' term for 'farmer', considered neutral, but without
> the somerimes derogatory connotation 'Bauer' may assume. The term is young
> and has to do with the increased economising of farming in the late 19th
> century. Today 'Landwirt' is more of a landowner of large, highly
> mechanised economically viable farming business, whereas a 'Bauer' has
> less land, fewer animals. Noble or ex-noble landowners will refer to
> themselves as 'Landwirt' rather than 'Bauer', a term more associated with
> a tenant farmer. 'Bauer' on the pejorative side is also used as a term for
> 'country bumpkin' or 'backwoodsman'. Dan

As a native speaker of German whose father also is a (now
retired) farmer, I can pretty much confirm this.

_Landwirt_ is more 

[conlang] Digest Number 8766

[conlang]

There are 15 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Fiat Lingua, September: Is a Collaborative Conlang Even Possible?
From: David Peterson

2a. Re: A Portrait of the Conlanger as a Young Man
From: Padraic Brown

3.1. Re: Bernard Comrie, The World's Major Languages, 2ed (2011)
From: Padraic Brown
3.2. Re: Bernard Comrie, The World's Major Languages, 2ed (2011)
From: And Rosta
3.3. Re: Bernard Comrie, The World's Major Languages, 2ed (2011)
From: Cíat Ó Gáibhtheacháin
3.4. Re: Bernard Comrie, The World's Major Languages, 2ed (2011)
From: Alex Fink
3.5. Re: Bernard Comrie, The World's Major Languages, 2ed (2011)
From: And Rosta
3.6. Re: Bernard Comrie, The World's Major Languages, 2ed (2011)
From: Patrick Dunn

4a. Re: Pronoun systems that don't mark person?
From: Daniel Burgener

5a. Re: Dessert
From: Sam Stutter
5b. Re: Dessert
From: George Corley
5c. Re: Dessert
From: Cíat Ó Gáibhtheacháin
5d. Re: Dessert
From: Padraic Brown
5e. Re: Dessert
From: Cíat Ó Gáibhtheacháin
5f. Re: Dessert
From: Adam Walker


Messages

1. Fiat Lingua, September: Is a Collaborative Conlang Even Possible?
Posted by: "David Peterson" deda...@gmail.com 
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2012 11:30 am ((PDT))

I forgot to make this post on the 1st, but we're still pretty close to the 
beginning of September, so here goes.

If you've been on the Conlang-L for even a month, you're probably read a post 
or two by Gary Shannon. In addition to his own projects, though, Gary's been at 
the head of some of the most innovative and successful collaborative conlang 
projects this community has ever seen. If you're new, though, you haven't heard 
of them because they fell by the wayside—even though they were successful. In 
this article, Gary asks the question: Is it even possible to put together a 
collaborative conlang? It's an interesting question, and I think Gary is in a 
unique position when it comes to providing an answer. You can read his article 
here:

http://fiatlingua.org/2012/09/

David Peterson
LCS President
presid...@conlang.org
www.conlang.org





Messages in this topic (1)


2a. Re: A Portrait of the Conlanger as a Young Man
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" elemti...@yahoo.com 
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2012 12:55 pm ((PDT))

--- On Wed, 9/5/12, Jörg Rhiemeier  wrote:

At this point I'd like to let folks know that I created an article at
Frath Wiki -- http://www.frathwiki.com/My_First_Conlang -- for anyone
who wishes to torture the Conlanging world with their first attempt or
two at making a language!

Thank you, Jörg for adding your early tries to the article! I know that
many of us have created some astoundingly wonderful works of linguistic
art. I also know that none of us just pulled a masterpiece out of our
shirt pockets. We started somewhere, and that somewhere almost certainly
included a string of very primitive, very awkward conlangs. This is just
a place for us to post a story and a snippet or two.

Padraic

> Like so many of us, I was 12 when two important events
> regarding
> my conlanging career happened.  I started learning
> Latin in
> school, and was attracted by its rich and colourful
> inflectional
> paradigms - what a contrast against the pallor of the
> paradigms
> of German, where case is often only marked on the article
> and
> subject pronouns are mandatory because the verb forms
> aren't
> clear enough (let alone the almost complete absence of
> inflection
> in English, which I had started learning two years
> earlier)!
> This language was the main source of inspiration for my
> conlangs
> for many years to come!
> 
> Also, I read _The Hobbit_ (in German translation), and _The
> Lord
> of the Rings_ (also in German translation) shortly
> thereafter.
> 
> I also seem to remember that 12 was the age when I embarked
> on
> my first conlang project.  It was an auxlang(!), cannot
> remember
> the name and therefore call this project "Homu" now, after
> its
> word for 'human being'.  All I remember (and probably
> pretty
> much all that has ever been fixed) was that I'd use Latin
> word
> roots and a gender system in which nouns denoting male
> beings
> ended in -o, nouns denoting female beings ended in -a, and
> nouns
> denoting beings of either sex or things to which no sex
> could
> be ascribed ended in -u.  This resulted in triads such
> as:
> 
> _homo_ 'human male'
> _homa_ 'human female'
> _ho

[conlang] Digest Number 8767

[conlang]

There are 15 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Dessert
From: Cíat Ó Gáibhtheacháin
1b. Re: Dessert
From: Padraic Brown
1c. Re: Dessert
From: Dan Sulani
1d. Re: Dessert
From: Iuhan Culmærija

2.1. Re: Bernard Comrie, The World's Major Languages, 2ed (2011)
From: And Rosta

3a. Basic Word Lists
From: John Erickson
3b. Re: Basic Word Lists
From: George Corley
3c. Re: Basic Word Lists
From: John Erickson
3d. Re: Basic Word Lists
From: Dale McCreery
3e. Re: Basic Word Lists
From: Arthaey Angosii
3f. Re: Basic Word Lists
From: Alex Fink
3g. Re: Basic Word Lists
From: Arthaey Angosii
3h. Re: Basic Word Lists
From: Gary Shannon

4a. Re: Pronoun systems that don't mark person?
From: Alex Fink

5a. Re: Fiat Lingua, September: Is a Collaborative Conlang Even Possible
From: Matthew DeBlock


Messages

1a. Re: Dessert
Posted by: "Cíat Ó Gáibhtheacháin" k...@stereochro.me 
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2012 5:14 pm ((PDT))

She's from Gloucestershire quite middle-class, so that's to be expected.

Adam Walker  wrote:

>On Wed, Sep 5, 2012 at 6:14 PM, Cíat Ó Gáibhtheacháin 
>wrote:
>
>> No, black pudding is delicious. That is all anybody who says otherwise is
>> a raving lunatic. :-)
>>
>> The word 'pudding' with reference to dessert is very English to my ear.
>> Not just English, mind, but middle-class Home Counties. No doubt it occurs
>> outside of that small sphere too, but that's where 'pudding' as dessert
>> seems native to: I can't imagine--not that it's not possible--somebody
>> outside of there referring to a pie, cake, or tart as "pudding".
>>
>>
>>
>
>Rowling uses pudding with that meaning throughout the Harry Potter series.
>
>Adam




Messages in this topic (22)

1b. Re: Dessert
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" elemti...@yahoo.com 
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2012 5:59 pm ((PDT))

--- On Wed, 9/5/12, Cíat Ó Gáibhtheacháin  wrote:

> No, black pudding is delicious. That
> is all anybody who says otherwise is a raving lunatic. :-) 

Well, call me a raving lunatic then!

> The word 'pudding' with reference to dessert is very English
> to my ear. Not just English, mind, but middle-class Home
> Counties. No doubt it occurs outside of that small sphere
> too, but that's where 'pudding' as dessert seems native to:
> I can't imagine--not that it's not possible--somebody
> outside of there referring to a pie, cake, or tart as
> "pudding".

I wouldn't go quite that far! It is entirely possible that we (Americans)
got our dessert pudding from those parts of England that only eat sensible,
sweet puddings and not that bloody muck! ;))

Padraic

> Padraic Brown 
> wrote:
> 
> >--- On Wed, 9/5/12, Sam Stutter 
> wrote:
> >
> >> I very rarely hear the word "dessert"
> >> actually used in general conversation unless it's
> in
> >> discussion of a specific foodstuff - things which
> are
> >> branded as such or restaurant desserts. The word
> has always
> >> seemed (to me) an affectation: that somehow this
> food is
> >> light and expensive, possibly something involving
> sorbet or
> >> soufflés. Most of the time the words "afters"
> (which has a
> >> pretty obvious etymology) or "pudding" work fine
> (apparently
> >> it's a C20th thing where pudding generally
> suggests
> >> sweetness - the word "really" means "sausage").
> >
> >Could be. I've never known pudding to be anything other
> than a sweet
> >concoction of milk, sugar, some cornstarch (or other
> thickener) and
> >some flavoring.
> >
> >I'm aware of the pudding in its context of black or
> blood pudding, and
> >although I'm an Anglophile in general terms, the
> conjunction of the
> >two words, blood and pudding, is simply and
> fundamentally wrong. ;))
> >
> >I suppose the word "dessert" comes up only infrequently
> because it is
> >really only associated with meals. Dinner and supper in
> particular. Not
> >usually breakfast. And it usually only appears in menus
> and in the
> >question "what do you want for dessert?" I'm sure a lot
> of words only
> >appear in specific contexts and not in general
> conversation. Projectile
> >vomiting, twin cams, adverse camber. Not your everyday
> topics of general

[conlang] Digest Number 8768

[conlang]

There are 2 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Basic Word Lists
From: Jim Henry

2a. Re: Fiat Lingua, September: Is a Collaborative Conlang Even Possible
From: Jörg Rhiemeier


Messages

1a. Re: Basic Word Lists
Posted by: "Jim Henry" jimhenry1...@gmail.com 
Date: Thu Sep 6, 2012 8:05 am ((PDT))

On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 1:38 AM, Alex Fink <000...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Not to be unduly harsh, but I think most of these are not as good than the 
> previous suggestions on this thread (Annis' thesaurus and SIL's DDP list, 
> both of which are awesome), or at least not as good for the purpose.

I haven't studied the latest version, but I remember that back in the
day Rick Harrison's Universal Language Dictionary was pretty useful
and non-relexy.

http://www.uld3.org/

-- 
Jim Henry
http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/





Messages in this topic (9)


2a. Re: Fiat Lingua, September: Is a Collaborative Conlang Even Possible
Posted by: "Jörg Rhiemeier" joerg_rhieme...@web.de 
Date: Thu Sep 6, 2012 8:45 am ((PDT))

Hallo conlangers!

On Wednesday 05 September 2012 20:30:10 David Peterson wrote:

> I forgot to make this post on the 1st, but we're still pretty close to the
> beginning of September, so here goes.
> 
> If you've been on the Conlang-L for even a month, you're probably read a
> post or two by Gary Shannon. In addition to his own projects, though,
> Gary's been at the head of some of the most innovative and successful
> collaborative conlang projects this community has ever seen. If you're
> new, though, you haven't heard of them because they fell by the
> wayside—even though they were successful. In this article, Gary asks the
> question: Is it even possible to put together a collaborative conlang?
> It's an interesting question, and I think Gary is in a unique position
> when it comes to providing an answer. You can read his article here:
> 
> http://fiatlingua.org/2012/09/

That is an interesting article that casts a light on problems
I have encountered myself.  It is hard to get and keep people
interested in a conlang.  A language that exists only for itself
won't fly; it needs a reason to use it.  I once observed that if
J. R. R. Tolkien had not written _The Lord of the Rings_ but
instead _A Historical Grammar of the Eldarin Languages_ (the book
that everybody on TolkLang and Elfling hopes to be discovered in
Tolkien's left-behind papers and published), his languages would
now be almost completely forgotten.  He probably would not have
found a publisher for it, and his manuscript would now at best
lie unheeded in the basement of some library, at worst have been
thrown away by his heirs.

>From my own experience with collaborative projects, those things
indeed often bog down and go nowhere because the contributors
do not put enough effort into them.  Consider the Noric project
of the League of Lost Languages ( http://www.frathwiki.com/Noric ):
the plan was to elaborate a proto-language as a group effort from
which the various list members would evolve daughter languages.
The proto-language never got far beyond a phonology, a few ideas
about the morphology and a word list (which was soon lost as the
database it was stored in went offline, but some items could be
retrieved from secondary sources and placed on FrathWiki).  And
because Proto-Noric is stuck in an embryonic stage, the daughter
languages are likewise stuck and probably already abandoned by
their authors.

What works quite well in my opinion are projects where one member
designs a protolanguage and everybody take it and evolve their
own daughter languages from that.  This has worked out quite well
several times in the Akana project ( http://akana.conlang.org/ ).
The difference between Akana and Noric is that in Akana, with
each of the language families of that world, a volunteer went
forth to design the proto-language all on his own, such that all
others could concern themselves with the daughter languages. 
This works well because every participant can go forth with his
part of the work without getting drawn into lengthy discussions
of details which tend not to be productive.

--
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
"Bêsel asa Éam, a Éam atha cvanthal a cvanth atha Éamal." - SiM 1:1





Messages in this topic (3)





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[conlang] Digest Number 8769

[conlang]

There are 15 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Basic Word Lists
From: John Erickson
1b. Re: Basic Word Lists
From: Roger Mills
1c. Re: Basic Word Lists
From: Ralph DeCarli
1d. Re: Basic Word Lists
From: Gary Shannon

2a. Re: Fiat Lingua, September: Is a Collaborative Conlang Even Possible
From: And Rosta
2b. Re: Fiat Lingua, September: Is a Collaborative Conlang Even Possible
From: Matthew DeBlock
2c. Re: Fiat Lingua, September: Is a Collaborative Conlang Even Possible
From: Sai
2d. Re: Fiat Lingua, September: Is a Collaborative Conlang Even Possible
From: Sai
2e. Re: Fiat Lingua, September: Is a Collaborative Conlang Even Possible
From: Gary Shannon
2f. Re: Fiat Lingua, September: Is a Collaborative Conlang Even Possible
From: Matthew DeBlock
2g. Re: Fiat Lingua, September: Is a Collaborative Conlang Even Possible
From: Matthew DeBlock
2h. Re: Fiat Lingua, September: Is a Collaborative Conlang Even Possible
From: Adam Walker

3a. Re: Dessert
From: Roger Mills

4a. Re: letter for 'th'
From: And Rosta

5. Plus ça change...
From: Douglas Koller


Messages

1a. Re: Basic Word Lists
Posted by: "John Erickson" john.erickson.so...@gmail.com 
Date: Thu Sep 6, 2012 1:27 pm ((PDT))

Changing topic slightly, it occurs to me that small, specialized word/concept 
lists might be very helpful to conlangers as well. For example, if you're 
making a conlang for a space-faring society, you're going to want it to have a 
lot of space travel and technology vocab, so it would helpful to have a mini 
thesaurus of just those words, put together by someone knowledgable in that 
area.

I might try to do that for some topics I'm more familiar with (not space 
travel), if I can find the time.





Messages in this topic (13)

1b. Re: Basic Word Lists
Posted by: "Roger Mills" romi...@yahoo.com 
Date: Thu Sep 6, 2012 2:46 pm ((PDT))

I think I have more than once touted by wordlist designed for research in 
Indonesia-- http://cinduworld.tripod.com/wordlist.txt -- 1100+ words, but it 
can be adapted to fit any place..

--- On Thu, 9/6/12, Jim Henry  wrote:

From: Jim Henry 
Subject: Re: Basic Word Lists
To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
Date: Thursday, September 6, 2012, 11:05 AM

On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 1:38 AM, Alex Fink <000...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Not to be unduly harsh, but I think most of these are not as good than the 
> previous suggestions on this thread (Annis' thesaurus and SIL's DDP list, 
> both of which are awesome), or at least not as good for the purpose.

I haven't studied the latest version, but I remember that back in the
day Rick Harrison's Universal Language Dictionary was pretty useful
and non-relexy.

http://www.uld3.org/

-- 
Jim Henry
http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/





Messages in this topic (13)

1c. Re: Basic Word Lists
Posted by: "Ralph DeCarli" omniv...@sysmatrix.net 
Date: Thu Sep 6, 2012 5:06 pm ((PDT))

On Wed, 5 Sep 2012 20:56:34 -0700

Roget's Thesaurus has some interesting thought starters.

http://poets.notredame.ac.jp/Roget/contents.html

Ralph
-- 

Have you heard of the new post-neo-modern art style?
They haven't decided what it looks like yet.





Messages in this topic (13)

1d. Re: Basic Word Lists
Posted by: "Gary Shannon" fizi...@gmail.com 
Date: Thu Sep 6, 2012 8:33 pm ((PDT))

I once started (but never completed) a project to construct a
task-based corpus and word list. My approach was to begin with a
hypothetical village of hunter/fisher-gatherers on a remote island,
and construct a corpus of things that the villagers might say to one
another.

Certain assumptions would have to be made about what kind of food
plants and animals were available on the island, and some geographic
and geological features of the island, such as the existence (or not)
of streams/rivers, lakes/ponds, mountains, hills, volcanoes, and the
typical weather patterns throughout the year.

Assumptions would also have to be made about their family and social
structures, religious/magical beliefs, and their legends and
traditions.

Once the culture was fairly well described one could begin to write
dialogs representing what would be said on the occasion of women
gathering to prepare a communal festival meal; men preparing the nets
for the days fishing expedition; elders sitting around the fire
telling the children their creation myth; a family calling for help in
locating a missing child; two children arguing over who gets to keep a
sea shell found on

[conlang] Digest Number 8770

[conlang]

There are 7 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Fiat Lingua, September: Is a Collaborative Conlang Even Possible
From: Jim Henry
1b. Re: Fiat Lingua, September: Is a Collaborative Conlang Even Possible
From: Wm Annis
1c. Re: Fiat Lingua, September: Is a Collaborative Conlang Even Possible
From: Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets
1d. Re: Fiat Lingua, September: Is a Collaborative Conlang Even Possible
From: Leonardo Castro
1e. Re: Fiat Lingua, September: Is a Collaborative Conlang Even Possible
From: And Rosta
1f. Re: Fiat Lingua, September: Is a Collaborative Conlang Even Possible
From: Matthew DeBlock
1g. Re: Fiat Lingua, September: Is a Collaborative Conlang Even Possible
From: Gary Shannon


Messages

1a. Re: Fiat Lingua, September: Is a Collaborative Conlang Even Possible
Posted by: "Jim Henry" jimhenry1...@gmail.com 
Date: Fri Sep 7, 2012 7:56 am ((PDT))

On Fri, Sep 7, 2012 at 3:06 AM, Gary Shannon  wrote:
> I probably should have stated explicitly that I was considering only
> "naturalistic" conlangs. The process of "growing" a language is
> definitely different than the process of engineering one. Engelangs
...
> a collaborative "constructed" language. Anyway, my perspective is from
> the desire to sort of simulate the real processes by which languages
> come into being by setting up the kind of environment in which a new
> language can emerge as the result of collaboration. Such an emergent
> language will be naturalistic, and no natural language will ever be an
> engelang.

I think you've come up with yet another sense for the word
"naturalistic" than the sense in which it's used in historical
artlanging and in auxlanging.  You're applying naturalism to the
process of creating the language, more than to the output of the
process.  The way a historical artlanger like Andrew Smith or Jörg
creates a diachronic artlang aims at naturalism of output -- Brithenig
or Old Albic should look like a naturally evolved language, even
though it was deliberately constructed.  Your process aims to create a
language by a greatly speeded up version of the processes that created
natlangs.   The process would arguably be a lot more "natural" than
the process by which a historical artlanger works, a fortiori more so
than the process an engelanger uses.  But I suspect the output of the
process (judging past examples like Kalusa) would look a lot more like
a pidgin or creole than a more typical natlang.

On Fri, Sep 7, 2012 at 5:18 AM, Matthew DeBlock  wrote:
> This industry needs SERIOUS consolidation.

> just that the many small participants should be trying to combine their
> efforts.

Conlanging is not an "industry".  For the most part, it's a hobby, or
a craft, or an artform (and an artform with little commercial
potential, except as part of a larger work of narrative art).  There
are a small number of people like David Peterson who make money from
conlanging, but I don't think it's the primary source of income for
any of them.  And even if there were a conlanging industry, as opposed
to a conlanging hobby or craft or artform, it's not obvious that it
would need consolidation.  It's probably rare for a TV show or movie
or video game to need such a fully developed conlang in such a hurry
that one good conlanger couldn't do it more effectively than a team
could.  Up to a point, if they need better and faster results than
they're currently getting, they could get more of a marginal
improvement by paying one conlanger a iiving wage to work on their
conlang full-time than by hiring multiple conlangers  part-time to
work simultaneously on different areas of the language.

-- 
Jim Henry
http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/





Messages in this topic (18)

1b. Re: Fiat Lingua, September: Is a Collaborative Conlang Even Possible
Posted by: "Wm Annis" wm.an...@gmail.com 
Date: Fri Sep 7, 2012 8:02 am ((PDT))

On Fri, Sep 7, 2012 at 9:44 AM, Adam Walker  wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 7, 2012 at 4:18 AM, Matthew DeBlock  wrote:
>
>> This industry needs SERIOUS consolidation.
>>
>>
> It needs NO SUCH THING.

This is my response to the suggestion, too.  I can scarcely imagine
something I want less than for me and my hobby to be consolidated.

The greater bewilderment, however, is this — when the hell did this
hobby become an industry?  I can comfortably count on two hands
the number of people who have been paid to conlang.  Even in the
most ideal entertainment zeitgeist, I cannot imagine that number
getting too much bigger.  Imagining us as an industry immediately
excludes the overwhelming majority of conlangers.

--
wm

[conlang] Digest Number 8771

[conlang]

There are 15 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1.1. Re: Fiat Lingua, September: Is a Collaborative Conlang Even Possible
From: Sai
1.2. Re: Fiat Lingua, September: Is a Collaborative Conlang Even Possible
From: George Corley
1.3. Re: Fiat Lingua, September: Is a Collaborative Conlang Even Possible
From: Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets
1.4. Re: Fiat Lingua, September: Is a Collaborative Conlang Even Possible
From: Padraic Brown
1.5. Re: Fiat Lingua, September: Is a Collaborative Conlang Even Possible
From: Padraic Brown
1.6. Re: Fiat Lingua, September: Is a Collaborative Conlang Even Possible
From: Arthaey Angosii
1.7. Re: Fiat Lingua, September: Is a Collaborative Conlang Even Possible
From: Padraic Brown
1.8. Re: Fiat Lingua, September: Is a Collaborative Conlang Even Possible
From: Sai
1.9. Re: Fiat Lingua, September: Is a Collaborative Conlang Even Possible
From: Adam Walker

2a. Re: letter for 'th'
From: Sai
2b. Re: letter for 'th'
From: And Rosta

3.1. Collaborative Method (WAS:  Fiat Lingua, September: Is a Collaborati
From: Mia.
3.2. Re: Collaborative Method (WAS: Fiat Lingua, September: Is a Collabor
From: Gary Shannon

4a. Re: gsfa [WAS: Basic Word Lists]
From: Gary Shannon
4b. Re: gsfa [WAS: Basic Word Lists]
From: Arthaey Angosii


Messages

1.1. Re: Fiat Lingua, September: Is a Collaborative Conlang Even Possible
Posted by: "Sai" s...@saizai.com 
Date: Fri Sep 7, 2012 10:37 am ((PDT))

On Fri, Sep 7, 2012 at 9:35 AM, Gary Shannon  wrote:
> That's rather like saying that all the worlds artists need to come
> together and paint one HUGE painting in a single uniform style.

Exactly so.

Y'all know that I'm probably the most out there among us regarding
commercialization of the art — and the farthest I would go is simply
to say that some clients want to buy good (to their criteria)
paintings for their walls that they aren't able to make themselves,
and thus we should try to provide that as a service. That's about it.

But…

On Fri, Sep 7, 2012 at 9:27 AM, Matthew DeBlock  wrote:
> why is the idea of everyone sitting down, collaborating, and trying to
> find a framework that can encompass everyone a problem.

A framework to do what?

Something you don't quite seem to be getting is that many (most?)
conlangers (including myself) just don't give a shit whether other
people adopt their language or not. Adoption is simply not relevant.

We get a kick out of having others appreciate what we've done, sure.
And we often appreciate constructive feedback. But those are very
different.

> not a "standard for conlangs" just a "standard for describing and
> cataloguing a conlang and its features"
>
> As I said, not a "centralized conlang" just a "centralized conlang
> repository"
>
> The Frath wiki, I think it is, is already starting down this path. they
> have a nice "checklist" style display for each conlang describing present
> and absent elements.

There is one: http://cals.conlang.org — free for anyone to participate
in (or not) as they please. Based on http://wals.info of natlangs.

> Why not go a couple steps further, instead of just a checklist, design a
> means of describing the gramatical rules etc..
>
> Some conlangers may find this "restrictive" in their "presentation", but
> other than that I dont see any obvious road-blocks.

No offense intended, but: this is linguistically naïve, entirely
separate from being culturally borderline taboo.

There's only so far you can go with describing grammars in a regular
way — much sooner than later, you start to get into it being just too
damn complicated and weird and unique (good things!) to fit into a
standard form.

I think that CALS is about as good as you'll get, for what you're
talking about: it's a list of common elements, and it has links to the
conlang's grammar.

Besides which, what you dismiss as "presentation" is often _part_ of
the intention. Take for instance http://ouwi.org/eym.html — I can't
see that fitting into some standardized grammar, yet it's an excellent
way of showing off Ouwi.

> is it supposedly impossible to design a description system for linguistic
> elements to allow this?

Yep, pretty much, at least in the way you mean.

> Does nobody want to share the individual elements of their conlang modularly?

Yep. It also just doesn't make any sense. Each conlang — projects like
Akana aside — is generally meant to be its own special thing. They are
sui generis.

It just makes no sense to try to "mix and match" between artworks that
are intended for many different pur

[conlang] Digest Number 8772

[conlang]

There are 8 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: gsfa [WAS: Basic Word Lists]
From: MorphemeAddict
1b. Re: gsfa [WAS: Basic Word Lists]
From: Gary Shannon
1c. Re: gsfa [WAS: Basic Word Lists]
From: Allison Swenson
1d. Re: gsfa [WAS: Basic Word Lists]
From: Roger Mills

2.  = /u/
From: Charlie Brickner

3. Graavgaaln case
From: Adam Walker

4.1. Re: Fiat Lingua, September: Is a Collaborative Conlang Even Possible
From: Roger Mills

5a. Re: Basic Word Lists
From: David McCann


Messages

1a. Re: gsfa [WAS: Basic Word Lists]
Posted by: "MorphemeAddict" lytl...@gmail.com 
Date: Fri Sep 7, 2012 3:28 pm ((PDT))

117, 153, 163, 176, 187, 193, 202

stevo

On Fri, Sep 7, 2012 at 4:21 PM, Gary Shannon  wrote:

> For what it's worth, I added section six, 203 more sentences to the
> "Graded Sentences for Analysis" files (gsfa). I hadn't realized that
> my last update had been 4 years ago!
>
> http://fiziwig.com/conlang/gsfa_6.txt
>
> Many of the sentences seem dated, and many are awfully "literary" or
> stilted. It occurred to me that it might be interesting to paraphrase
> the sentences in some standard form, and with a small, controlled
> vocabulary, to serve not as models of sentence structure, but as a
> checklist of the general TYPES of things a conlang should be able to
> say, without regard to HOW those things are said.
>
> --gary
>
> On Wed, Sep 5, 2012 at 9:30 PM, Arthaey Angosii  wrote:
> > On Wed, Sep 5, 2012 at 8:29 PM, John Erickson
> >  wrote:
> >> I'm at a point with one of my languages where I'm trying to flesh out
> the
> >> vocabulary but I'm having a hard time figuring out what new words I need
> >> off the top of my head.
> >>
> >> Are there any good basic word/concept lists out there that could help?
> >
> > I maintain a small list of wordlists here:
> >
> > http://www.arthaey.com/conlang/translationex.html#wordlists
> >
> > And CALS also has a small list:
> >
> > http://cals.conlang.org/word/list/
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Arthaey
>





Messages in this topic (6)

1b. Re: gsfa [WAS: Basic Word Lists]
Posted by: "Gary Shannon" fizi...@gmail.com 
Date: Fri Sep 7, 2012 10:07 pm ((PDT))

On Fri, Sep 7, 2012 at 2:08 PM, Arthaey Angosii  wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 7, 2012 at 1:21 PM, Gary Shannon  wrote:
>> It occurred to me that it might be interesting to paraphrase
>> the sentences in some standard form, and with a small, controlled
>> vocabulary, to serve not as models of sentence structure, but as a
>> checklist of the general TYPES of things a conlang should be able to
>> say, without regard to HOW those things are said.
>
> Do let us know if you ever write that up — I'd certainly be interested in it! 
> :)
>

I sometimes loose track of what is on my own web site. It turns out I
already did something of this sort back in 2010:
http://fiziwig.com/conlang/syntax_tests.html

--gary





Messages in this topic (6)

1c. Re: gsfa [WAS: Basic Word Lists]
Posted by: "Allison Swenson" jlon...@gmail.com 
Date: Sat Sep 8, 2012 6:14 am ((PDT))

That is an extremely helpful list, by the way. I was linked to it
elsewhere, and found it invaluable in working out grammar more difficult
than simply "The roses are red"-type sentences.

--Allison

On Sat, Sep 8, 2012 at 1:07 AM, Gary Shannon  wrote:

> On Fri, Sep 7, 2012 at 2:08 PM, Arthaey Angosii  wrote:
> > On Fri, Sep 7, 2012 at 1:21 PM, Gary Shannon  wrote:
> >> It occurred to me that it might be interesting to paraphrase
> >> the sentences in some standard form, and with a small, controlled
> >> vocabulary, to serve not as models of sentence structure, but as a
> >> checklist of the general TYPES of things a conlang should be able to
> >> say, without regard to HOW those things are said.
> >
> > Do let us know if you ever write that up — I'd certainly be interested
> in it! :)
> >
>
> I sometimes loose track of what is on my own web site. It turns out I
> already did something of this sort back in 2010:
> http://fiziwig.com/conlang/syntax_tests.html
>
> --gary
>





Messages in this topic (6)

1d. Re: gsfa [WAS: Basic Word Lists]
Posted by: "Roger Mills" romi...@yahoo.com 
Date: Sat Sep 8, 2012 9:23 am ((PDT))

I don't seem to see

[conlang] Digest Number 8773

[conlang]

There are 15 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: gsfa [WAS: Basic Word Lists]
From: Gary Shannon
1b. Re: gsfa [WAS: Basic Word Lists]
From: Gary Shannon
1c. Re: gsfa [WAS: Basic Word Lists]
From: Gary Shannon

2a. Re:  = /u/
From: Matthew Boutilier

3.1. Re: Bernard Comrie, The World's Major Languages, 2ed (2011)
From: Logan Kearsley
3.2. Japanese pronouns (was: Bernard Comrie, The World's Major Languages,
From: Jörg Rhiemeier

4.1. Re: Fiat Lingua, September: Is a Collaborative Conlang Even Possible
From: Logan Kearsley

5a. Lexicography Project Update
From: Logan Kearsley
5b. Re: Lexicography Project Update
From: George Corley

6a. Re: Basic Word Lists
From: Padraic Brown

7a. New LCS Website
From: David Peterson
7b. Re: New LCS Website
From: George Corley

8a. what sort of semantic properties of arguments do verbs inflect for?
From: And Rosta
8b. Re: what sort of semantic properties of arguments do verbs inflect f
From: MorphemeAddict
8c. Re: what sort of semantic properties of arguments do verbs inflect f
From: Wm Annis


Messages

1a. Re: gsfa [WAS: Basic Word Lists]
Posted by: "Gary Shannon" fizi...@gmail.com 
Date: Sat Sep 8, 2012 10:38 am ((PDT))

There's no end to the job of collecting types of sentences I guess! :-)
It's a good thing I enjoy collecting them.

--gary

On Sat, Sep 8, 2012 at 9:23 AM, Roger Mills  wrote:
> I don't seem to see any examples with comparatives of the type1) "I like rice 
> more than potatoes" or 2) "I like X more than John does" or 3) "I prefer X 
> more than/over Y" or 4) "he eats faster than me/ ~I (do, can)" or 5) "he 
> [talks more /.eats faster] than he [ought to/ is necessary]" -- I mention 
> this because they were a bit of a problem in Kash, in that when "than" is 
> followed by a complete (or deleted) sentence (as in #4,5) it requires a 
> slightly different construction..There is one examples of "Name1 is Xer 
> than Pron/Name2" which would fall into the same category. Cf:
>
> �enji lavi yavital alo 2 li 'Shenji is taller than 2 li (=meters)' alternately
> vitalni �enji (yale) lavi alo 2 li [Shenji's height (is) more than 2 li" (no 
> change of subject)  vs.
>
> �enji lavi yavital alo re erek 'Shenji is taller than Erek [is (tall)] (_re_ 
> shows change of subject ~subord..clause)-- change of subject, deleted verb) 
> and cf. also
>
> �enji lavi yavital alo re amani 'Shenji is taller than his father [is]' 
> (father still living}
> (colloquially,  of course, lots of speaker omit the _re_ in these cases) but 
> not in
>
> �enji lavi yavital alo re yavitalsa amani 'Shenji is taller than his father 
> was (tall)' (father is not living)-- change of both subject and tense (I 
> think I have these right, without checking my syntax page :-
>
> --- On Sat, 9/8/12, Gary Shannon  wrote:
>
> From: Gary Shannon 
> Subject: Re: gsfa [WAS: Basic Word Lists]
> To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
> Date: Saturday, September 8, 2012, 1:07 AM
>
> On Fri, Sep 7, 2012 at 2:08 PM, Arthaey Angosii  wrote:
>> On Fri, Sep 7, 2012 at 1:21 PM, Gary Shannon  wrote:
>>> It occurred to me that it might be interesting to paraphrase
>>> the sentences in some standard form, and with a small, controlled
>>> vocabulary, to serve not as models of sentence structure, but as a
>>> checklist of the general TYPES of things a conlang should be able to
>>> say, without regard to HOW those things are said.
>>
>> Do let us know if you ever write that up � I'd certainly be interested in 
>> it! :)
>>
>
> I sometimes loose track of what is on my own web site. It turns out I
> already did something of this sort back in 2010:
> http://fiziwig.com/conlang/syntax_tests.html
>
> --gary





Messages in this topic (9)

1b. Re: gsfa [WAS: Basic Word Lists]
Posted by: "Gary Shannon" fizi...@gmail.com 
Date: Sat Sep 8, 2012 1:58 pm ((PDT))

202. She is taller than her brother.
203. They are no wiser than we.
204. Light travels faster than sound.
205. We have more time than they.
206. She has more friends than enemies.
...
216. He has far more money than brains.

Or am I misunderstanding what you're looking for?

--gary

On Sat, Sep 8, 2012 at 9:23 AM, Roger Mills  wrote:
> I don't seem to see any examples with comparatives of the type1) "I like rice 
> more than potatoes" or 2) "I like X more than John does" or 3) "I

[conlang] Digest Number 8774

[conlang]

There are 15 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: what sort of semantic properties of arguments do verbs inflect f
From: Zach Wellstood

2.1. Re: Bernard Comrie, The World's Major Languages, 2ed (2011)
From: Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets

3.1. Re: Japanese pronouns (was: Bernard Comrie, The World's Major Langua
From: Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets
3.2. Re: Japanese pronouns (was: Bernard Comrie, The World's Major Langua
From: Douglas Koller

4a. Re: New LCS Website
From: Jennifer Collins-Jai
4b. Re: New LCS Website
From: Sylvia Sotomayor

5a. Re: gsfa [WAS: Basic Word Lists]
From: Roger Mills
5b. Re: gsfa [WAS: Basic Word Lists]
From: Gary Shannon

6a. Re: Graavgaaln case
From: Roger Mills
6b. Re: Graavgaaln case
From: Adam Walker

7a. Re: Basic Word Lists
From: Roger Mills
7b. Re: Basic Word Lists
From: Padraic Brown

8a. Re: multi-lang-conlang?
From: Anthony Miles

9. Siye: A Passionate Lover of Mars
From: Anthony Miles

10a. Re:  = /u/
From: Alex Fink


Messages

1a. Re: what sort of semantic properties of arguments do verbs inflect f
Posted by: "Zach Wellstood" zwellst...@gmail.com 
Date: Sat Sep 8, 2012 5:15 pm ((PDT))

I don't have my grammar of Navajo handy at the moment, but I kind of
remember reading something about special classes that verbs have to agree
with in terms of physical properties of noun arguments. Not really sure and
I can't give solid examples. I do remember that Navajo motion verbs tend to
encode shape/appearance of an object and the type of movement it makes (but
that's probably not inflected for, but shown by different roots
altogether).

So I can't really remember any other semantic properties verbs show in
natlangs (maybe the obvious physical gender rather than grammatical
gender??), but I'll shamelessly plug łaá siri and say that its verb roots
conjugate for the argument's(s') spatial deixis relative to the speaker
(based on five degrees: right here, right there, over there, not here, and
somewhere/anywhere).

Zach


On Sat, Sep 8, 2012 at 7:45 PM, MorphemeAddict  wrote:

> On Sat, Sep 8, 2012 at 7:21 PM, And Rosta  wrote:
>
> > It's fairly common in natlangs for verbs to inflect for semantic
> > properties of one or more of their arguments, notably for the semantic
> > properties of person and number. For example, Italian _amo_ encodes that
> > the lover argument is Me,
>
>
> "I", not "Me".
>
>
> > _ami_ that the lover argument is Thee,
>
>
> "Thou", not "Thee".
>
> stevo
>
>
> > _ama_ that the lover argument is an individual, and _amano_ that the
> lover
> > argument is a group.
> >
> > What other semantic properties of arguments do verbs (or other sorts of
> > word) inflect for in natlangs and/or conlangs?
> >
> > I can think of inflections for physical properties of arguments (shape,
> > rigidity/consistency, arrangement) in (iirc, which is doubtful) Na Dene
> > lgs. What else?
> >
> > --And.
> >
>



-- 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conlang>>
ra'aalalí 'a!





Messages in this topic (4)


2.1. Re: Bernard Comrie, The World's Major Languages, 2ed (2011)
Posted by: "Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets" tsela...@gmail.com 
Date: Sat Sep 8, 2012 6:03 pm ((PDT))

On 8 September 2012 21:47, Logan Kearsley  wrote:

>
> Does Japanese have any other pronoun-like stuff going on, like verbal
> agreement for person?


Nope, none at all. The closest it has is verb pairs like "ageru" and
"kureru", both meaning "to give", but one directed towards the speaker and
the other more towards the listener (although things are more complicated
than that, with considerations of in-group and out-group to take into
account). And there's the suffix "-tai": "to want", which when used implies
that the subject is the speaker. But it's not personal agreement, just a
cultural issue: it's considered impolite to pretend to know what somebody
else wants. But in principle, the form with "-tai" can be used in any
person, and sometimes is, if impolitely :) .

Of course, there are also the formal verb forms, with honorific forms that
are used to refer to the listener or 3rd parties (and the groups they
belong to), and humble forms that refer to the speaker and their in-group.
But it's not so much that they're marking person. Rather, their semantic
contents is such that they nat

[conlang] Digest Number 8775

[conlang]

There are 7 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1.1. Re: letter for 'th'
From: BPJ
1.2. Re: letter for 'th'
From: Jörg Rhiemeier

2a. Re: New LCS Website
From: Jörg Rhiemeier
2b. Re: New LCS Website
From: Roger Mills
2c. Re: New LCS Website
From: Sylvia Sotomayor

3a. Re: Basic Word Lists
From: Roger Mills

4a. Re: what sort of semantic properties of arguments do verbs inflect f
From: And Rosta


Messages

1.1. Re: letter for 'th'
Posted by: "BPJ" b...@melroch.se 
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2012 2:54 am ((PDT))

On 2012-09-04 00:15, Alex Fink wrote:
>  From a modern perspective I vote for C as well,
>  also on account of such things as Castilian. But I
>  wonder if X started being used for (essentially) an
>  extra fricative in Spanish / Portuguese / ... (and
>  a graphic variant of final S in French?) earlier
>  than affricate values of C started losing their
>  closure; if so, X might be the more compelling
>  choice at the time.

X = /ʃ/ was much earlier than /ts/ > /s/θ/, but far
from being a random assignment of a new sound to a
spare letter -- AFAIK the ancients didn't deal in
such -- it was the result of regular sound change:
Latin /ks/ between vowels had become /ʃ/ in the
local Romance. IIRC even the name of the letter had
gone through /eks/ > /ekse/ > /eçse/ > /ejse/ >
/esʲe/ > /eʃe/!

That's not to say that they were incapable of conscious
innovation, such as splitting two allographs into
distinct letters to express a phonemic distinction, as
when Ç, originally an allograph of Z, was assigned to
/ts/ while the ordinary Z was assigned to /dz/.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visigothic_script>

But imagine if they _had_ been recycling letters
semirandomly!  English might have ended up with
C = /tʃ/, G = /dʒ/, K = /k/, Q = /g/, X = /ʃ/
and Z = /θ/ð/, later introducing Ç for /θ/! ;-)
In fact there was some limited use of X = /ʃ/
in Middle English, in 'small words' like _xall_
and _xo_ 'she'.

As for And's original query I think Ç may provide an
explanation for C = /θ/. While the /ts/ > /s/θ/ was
late it is possible that people who lack /θ/ but have
/ts/ in their native phonology replace /θ/ with /ts/
when speaking a foreign language. I've heard this in
German speakers' English, _thing_ coming out as [tsɪŋ].

Also Z/C/Ç were from early times used to express the
Basque laminal alveolar /s̻/ as opposed to the apical
alveolar /s̺/ which was written S. Given the location
And assigns to Livagia it would in fact be strange if
it hadn't been visited by Basque sailors! Phonetically
/θ/ is of course laminal, so that a laminal/apical
alveolar distinction may sound similar to a laminal
dental/apical alveolar one. In fact Icelandic Þ and S
are both alveolar, the distinction being a
laminal/apical one, with /s/ often sounding [ʃ]-ish to
my ears, and of course the intermediate stage between
/ts/ and /θ/ in Spanish was laminal /s̻/, the /t̻s̻/
originating from /tɕ/ having been laminal against
apical /s̺/ S. That pronunciation may actually have
been current for centuries.

/bpj





Messages in this topic (27)

1.2. Re: letter for 'th'
Posted by: "Jörg Rhiemeier" joerg_rhieme...@web.de 
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2012 6:23 am ((PDT))

Hallo conlangers!

On Sunday 09 September 2012 11:53:30 BPJ wrote:

> [...]
> As for And's original query I think Ç may provide an
> explanation for C = /θ/. While the /ts/ > /s/θ/ was
> late it is possible that people who lack /θ/ but have
> /ts/ in their native phonology replace /θ/ with /ts/
> when speaking a foreign language. I've heard this in
> German speakers' English, _thing_ coming out as [tsɪŋ].

The most common outcome of /θ/ in German mouths is [s],
while [ts] is less common; I have also occasionally 
encountered [tʃ].
 
> Also Z/C/Ç were from early times used to express the
> Basque laminal alveolar /s̻/ as opposed to the apical
> alveolar /s̺/ which was written S.

AFAIK Old Spanish used the same conventions as Basque, with
/s̻/ later becoming Modern Spanish /θ/ and /ʃ/ becoming /x/.

Also, Old High German: _z_ was laminal /s̻/ (which was the
reflex, by High German Sound Shift, of Proto-Germanic */t/),
and _s_ was apical /s̺/ (from Proto-Germanic */s/).  The
letter _z_ was also sometimes used for the laminal affricate
/ts̻/, and when the two sibilants merged (around 1300 or so),
_z_ became the letter for /ts/, while /s/ was always spelled
_s_.

Madeirese, a descendant of Old Albic, uses the same convention
as Basque: _z_ for /s̻/, _s_ for /s̺/, and _x_ for /ʃ/ (the Old
Albic sources of these consonants are /θ/, /s/ and /

[conlang] Digest Number 8776

[conlang]

There are 8 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re:  = /u/
From: Eric Christopherson
1b. Re:  = /u/
From: Eric Christopherson

2a. Re: what sort of semantic properties of arguments do verbs inflect f
From: Zach Wellstood

3.1. Re: Japanese pronouns (was: Bernard Comrie, The World's Major Langua
From: Roman Rausch
3.2. Re: Japanese pronouns (was: Bernard Comrie, The World's Major Langua
From: Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets

4a. Re: A Portrait of the Conlanger as a Young Man
From: Roger Mills
4b. Re: A Portrait of the Conlanger as a Young Man
From: Allison Swenson

5. Tagalog-English dictionary
From: George Corley


Messages

1a. Re:  = /u/
Posted by: "Eric Christopherson" ra...@charter.net 
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2012 12:01 pm ((PDT))

On Sep 9, 2012, at 1:13 AM, Alex Fink wrote:

> On Sat, 8 Sep 2012 14:14:29 -0500, Matthew Boutilier  
> wrote:
> 
>> the *weirder* question is why, in Germanic (and, i'm sure, elsewhere), the
>> following arrangement seemed sensible:
>>  = /w/
>>  = /u/
>> my 'instincts' would flip them, with the longer sound corresponding to the
>> longer symbol. unless the consonantality of /w/ suggested itself as more
>> prominent for the orthography. but, such is life. 
> 
> I've also been puzzled by this.  It comes up (surely) independently in the 
> Avestan script which uses _ii_ and _uu_ for respectively [j] and [w].  My 
> only guess as to why this correspondence might suggest itself is that, 
> intervocalically, glides like to do the ambisyllabic thing of being a 
> diphthong offglide of one syllable and the onset of the next, so you write 
> them once for each syllable.  But it could always be just "double for a 
> secondary value".  

Yiddish-adapted Hebrew script does this too for /v/ and /j/.




Messages in this topic (5)

1b. Re:  = /u/
Posted by: "Eric Christopherson" ra...@charter.net 
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2012 12:15 pm ((PDT))

On Sep 9, 2012, at 2:00 PM, Eric Christopherson wrote:

> On Sep 9, 2012, at 1:13 AM, Alex Fink wrote:
> 
>> On Sat, 8 Sep 2012 14:14:29 -0500, Matthew Boutilier 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>>> the *weirder* question is why, in Germanic (and, i'm sure, elsewhere), the
>>> following arrangement seemed sensible:
>>>  = /w/
>>>  = /u/
>>> my 'instincts' would flip them, with the longer sound corresponding to the
>>> longer symbol. unless the consonantality of /w/ suggested itself as more
>>> prominent for the orthography. but, such is life. 
>> 
>> I've also been puzzled by this.  It comes up (surely) independently in the 
>> Avestan script which uses _ii_ and _uu_ for respectively [j] and [w].  My 
>> only guess as to why this correspondence might suggest itself is that, 
>> intervocalically, glides like to do the ambisyllabic thing of being a 
>> diphthong offglide of one syllable and the onset of the next, so you write 
>> them once for each syllable.  But it could always be just "double for a 
>> secondary value".  
> 
> Yiddish-adapted Hebrew script does this too for /v/ and /j/.

Sorry -- it does this only with doubled vav for /v/. Doubled yod is either /ej/ 
or /aj/, depending on diacritics.




Messages in this topic (5)


2a. Re: what sort of semantic properties of arguments do verbs inflect f
Posted by: "Zach Wellstood" zwellst...@gmail.com 
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2012 12:13 pm ((PDT))

>
>
>> Good stuff. For Livagian I currently have inflections for nonthird
> person, for 6 degrees of spatial deixis (based on +/-near me, +/-near you),
> which also double as degrees of (in)definiteness, for taboo/unmentionable,
> for ineffable, for thing pointed to, for thing demonstrated, for good thing
>  and for bad thing.
>
>
Oh, interesting! I didn't know if there were any other conlangs that
observe spatial deixis in that way. In  łaá siri, those conjugations also
help in distinguishing proximate/obviative distinctions and relevance to
the discourse.

Zach


-- 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conlang>>
ra'aalalí 'a!





Messages in this topic (6)


3.1. Re: Japanese pronouns (was: Bernard Comrie, The World's Major Langua
Posted by: "Roman Rausch" ara...@mail.ru 
Date: Sun 

[conlang] Digest Number 8777

[conlang]

There are 6 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: A Portrait of the Conlanger as a Young Man
From: Padraic Brown

2.1. Re: Fiat Lingua, September: Is a Collaborative Conlang Even Possible
From: Daniel Prohaska
2.2. Group Project Language was Re: Fiat Lingua, September: Is a Collabor
From: Padraic Brown
2.3. Re: Fiat Lingua, September: Is a Collaborative Conlang Even Possible
From: Jörg Rhiemeier

3.1. Re: Collaborative Method (WAS: Fiat Lingua, September: Is a Collabor
From: Daniel Prohaska

4a. Re: Tagalog-English dictionary
From: Roger Mills


Messages

1a. Re: A Portrait of the Conlanger as a Young Man
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" elemti...@yahoo.com 
Date: Mon Sep 10, 2012 10:56 am ((PDT))

--- On Mon, 9/10/12, Allison Swenson  wrote:

> A bit late to the party, but oddly
> enough I was around 11 or 12 when I
> started my first conlang as well! I'm giving away my youth
> here, but it was
> really because I saw the Lord of the Rings movies (well, the
> first one,
> anyway), read and was instantly hooked on the books, and was
> fascinated by
> Tolkien's languages. So of course the first thought into my
> head was to rip off his work!

That's alright! Tolkien has certainly been a great direct or indirect
influence on many of us. I recall that a couple of my classmates, after
having read LotR (we read it in I believe fourth grade and Hobbit in third)
began mimicking the runic writing for passing coded notes. I never got
into the rune-codes, but by that time had already been exposed to the
Greek and Cyrillic alphabets (from an old dictionary we had in the house)
and, of all things, a book about Old English language and culture (for a
school project), so was already working on deformed and embellished 
letters.

> The language was nothing more than a relex of English and
> never got much
> farther than a list of vocabulary, but I continued to work
> on it off and on
> throughout middle school and ended up with quite a list. Now
> that I think
> about it, I believe I actually did have a very small number
> of full
> sentence translations, but I haven't the faintest idea how
> conjugation or
> anything else worked. Hmm, now I'm intrigued. I may have to
> do some digging
> through some old computers to see if I can turn anything
> up!

let us know one way or the other! And if you find anything, feel free to
create an article at Frathwiki with your earliest conlang attempts. Then
come back in 10 or 20 years and compare! ;))

> Anyway, while the project was abandoned, a few words (no
> more than perhaps
> a half-dozen) actually have survived into my current
> project, simply because they were so familiar to me.

Padraic

 





Messages in this topic (21)

________
2.1. Re: Fiat Lingua, September: Is a Collaborative Conlang Even Possible
Posted by: "Daniel Prohaska" dan...@ryan-prohaska.com 
Date: Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:10 am ((PDT))

Hello,
I think such a project could be interesting if a group of conlangers could find 
some kind of consensus where the cultural, historical and social setting is 
concerned. For example, I would find it very interesting to create, as a group, 
a proto-conlang and then have each member of the group run of and have this 
proto-conlang branch out into several daughter families and languages. What do 
you think?
Dan


On Sep 7, 2012, at 8:26 PM, Padraic Brown wrote:

> --- On Fri, 9/7/12, Matthew DeBlock  wrote:
> 
>> But think you glaze over "usage/application" with a blanket
>> statement as if to imply it is not important in your verbage here.
> 
> It seems that everyone so far that has replied has basically said that,
> at least for us as artistically minded conlangers, things like usage and
> (real world) application simply aren't important measures of success, if
> they are even goals we have set!
> 
>> But what I am sying by "success" is not to set some
>> standard, more what
>> the article says, that success will be decided by
>> usage/application over
>> time. I am by no means trying to lay out some standard for
>> perfection.
> 
> Perhaps -- but again, I don't think most of us measure the "success" of
> our conlangs by how many people speak our languages. This might be "a"
> measure of success for a certain subset of conlangs (I'm still very much
> thinking of auxlangs here), but by in large not for artlangs or even
> engelangs.
> 
>> But one must admit, much of the conlang world "suffers" from
>> a

[conlang] Digest Number 8778

[conlang]

lternatives for Nasal Harmony
Posted by: "Anthony Miles" mamercu...@gmail.com 
Date: Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:56 pm ((PDT))

Well, I'll have to work in stages and upriver towards my goal conjugation of 
(ngopoto, tupota, nepota/napota, nopota(mo), ngopota(ti), nipota/nepota)
pate ne nombi, qui e im queri,
The other immediate problem is that Tupi and related languages do not generally
mark plurals, but are keenly aware of nasalization. If /m/ and /n/ nasalize the 
preceding
vowel, then the singular/plural distinction in Melchizedekan Romance will be 
marked
by a presence vs. an absence of nasalization:
imdrem, iri < ille, illi
First of all, I don't know if nasalization is permissible to code such a 
distinction. Secondly,
semi-fluent Melchizedekan speakers whose L1 is something Tupian are likely to 
use
only the singular, nasalized variant, and I'm certain that's not stable over 
the long term.

> Option 2: The Tupinamba Option (this may look familiar to the creator of
> Fairylang)
> 1. /m/ and /n/ are realized as nasal allophones /m_b/ and /n_d/ when it is
> followed by a stressed syllable without any other nasal.
> 2. in stressed word-initial position, /m/ and /n/ are realized as nasal
> allophones if and only if there is not any other nasal after them in the
> word.
> 3. /m/ and /n/ always nasalize the preceding vowel.
> 4. /i^/ and /nh/ are oral and nasal allophones of the same archiphoneme.
> 5. /u^/ is realized /gu^/ in word-initial postion: /'venit/ > /'guedy/
> So Option 2 is initially complex, but lacks the pervasive effect on the
> phonology that Option 1 produces. It does, however, have the advantage that
> the Tupi did live at the mouth of the Amazon in OTL.
> linguam Romanam >
> Option 1: nri~ngua~ robada(~)
> Option 2: nri~gua~ ro~mbanda~
> Option 3, of course, is to take the principle but tweak the rules. Advice
> from Ill Bethisad hands would be beneficial here IMO.





Messages in this topic (5)

3b. Re: Melchizedekan Romance: Two Alternatives for Nasal Harmony
Posted by: "Alex Fink" 000...@gmail.com 
Date: Tue Sep 11, 2012 7:31 pm ((PDT))

On Tue, 11 Sep 2012 19:56:54 -0400, Anthony Miles  wrote:

>If /m/ and /n/ nasalize the preceding
>vowel, then the singular/plural distinction in Melchizedekan Romance will be 
>marked
>by a presence vs. an absence of nasalization:
>imdrem, iri < ille, illi
>First of all, I don't know if nasalization is permissible to code such a 
>distinction. 

Permissible?  I don't know what it would mean for it not to be permissible.  If 
word-level nasality can happen as a phonological contrast, and number can 
happen as a semantic contrast, then word-level nasality can signal number.  
Nothing to it.  

As for the according pervasiveness of nasality, if I'm not mistaken, Ray Brown 
& others will tell you that, most likely, written Latin final <-m> was in fact 
entirely silent in polysyllables in Vulgar Latin, not even surviving as vowel 
nasality.  So your accusatives could be in the oral class after all.  

Alex





Messages in this topic (5)


4a. Vocal fry to indicate mood
Posted by: "Daniel Myers" edo...@medievalcookery.com 
Date: Wed Sep 12, 2012 8:10 am ((PDT))


Howdy,

Has anyone used vocal fry or a similar effect to indicate grammatical
mood (e.g. dubitative)?

Of course it could have the side effect of heavy smokers always sounding
like they're uncertain.

- Doc




Messages in this topic (2)

4b. Re: Vocal fry to indicate mood
Posted by: "George Corley" gacor...@gmail.com 
Date: Wed Sep 12, 2012 8:12 am ((PDT))

I see no reason why you couldn't.  Perhaps on a particular syllable or
somesuch.  Also, the technical term, I believe, is creaky voice.

On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 10:10 AM, Daniel Myers
wrote:

>
> Howdy,
>
> Has anyone used vocal fry or a similar effect to indicate grammatical
> mood (e.g. dubitative)?
>
> Of course it could have the side effect of heavy smokers always sounding
> like they're uncertain.
>
> - Doc





Messages in this topic (2)






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[conlang] Digest Number 8779

[conlang]

plained to the woman about this, but is there a line missing somewhere?
Why not just drag the mother down to the river instead?

Padraic 

> Leya tumna laye tum ekempukima.
> A man loved a woman.
> Leyaya laye lu layemetu ayekena:
> This is what the man said to the mother of the woman:
> (the number prefix is -ke-, PAUCAL, because a Siye statement
> will contain at least three words.
> It is perfective because reported speech is conceived as a
> complete act.)
> Le layeke peme iltumpusumtetuma.
> I want to marry your daughter.
> Laye luya itu ayekena:
> The mother said to him:
> le petu layeke leme iletumpusumkakunu.
> I do not intend you in any way to marry my daughter.
> Itu peyapomike ekimkekina.
> Unto her the years are few.
> Leyaya layetu ayekena:
> The man said to the woman:
> laye lu pemena leso letumsosumkakunu.
> Your mother has forbidden us to marry.
> Iya letu ayekena:
> She said to me:
> petu peyapomike ekimkekina.
> Unto you the years are few.
> Tumku siwima ame:
> Only say this:
> peya letu pekimpukimam
> you will be unto me and
> peya ko um umsakumesone emkim pekemkukima.
> you  will be inside the arms of no other man.
> Peya ko lemesone emkim nimu epuluwepuma.
> You will find happiness inside my arms.
> Leyaya layetu ayekena:
> The man said to the woman:
> leso sutukene tekem kemhusaki sakikemhumekem lesusome.
> Let us two go on the path at the riverbank.
> Iso kemhusakikem isusomam 
> The two of them walked along the bank and
> leyaya laye yenukiki tutuku yiwipunema.
> the man holds the woman forcefully with a knife.
> Laye leyatu ayekena:
> The woman said to the man:
> la kepusumtonunu
> do not kill me
> le numu likemeka elekekanuya.
> because I have not made the death gifts
> Leya ko tuki-tuki imepuki sakikemhumsu ya iniku
> yisupusumtumam
> The man took her down to the water by her white, white hand
> and
> iso lu saki ikimsokimekem isusonumamam
> they both went down to the water
> leyaya ko imesoki laye yitupusumnunam
> the man threw the woman with his hands
> leyaya sakine emtu laye yitupusumtunam
> the man threw the woman into the river
> leyaya laye sakine tekem isupunumame yikoputuma.
> the man watched the woman who floated down in the river.
> Leya samni nelosum tummesukem imiputumam
> The man walked home from dark (midnight) to one and
> enepuyamkima ame:
> thought this:
> le pala elekenamo?
> What have I done?
> le laye supi ilompumame ilekepusumnuna
> I have murdered the only woman I loved
> iya la letumpusumkikaya
> because she would not marry me.
> 





Messages in this topic (2)






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[conlang] Digest Number 8780

[conlang]

 (rarer), and guessed wrong. 
If the idear-sayer has no lexical contrast between words ending in "r" and 
words ending in "@" then there's a greater diversity of opinion about the 
appropriate phonological analysis; mine would be that "r"="@"-final words end 
in a phoneme that the speaker realizes with an unconditioned rhotic allophone. 
In the latter case, there's nothing etymologically unsound about "idear", since 
it's the regular outcome of the etymon.

I think both sorts of pattern are found in speakers with significant exposure 
to both rhotic and nonrhotic accents. I don't know which one is the likelier in 
the case of Roman's workshopmates.

--And.

Matthew Boutilier, On 13/09/2012 21:55:
> I heard 'idear' over and over in Germany -- not 'viar,' though.
>
> My theory about it is as follows. 'Idear' is an English dialectical variant
> of 'idea,' possibly going back to that thing that Brits do with inserting
> /r/ between words ending with a vowel and words starting with a vowel ("I
> saw-r-a film today, oh boy"). OR the dialectical variant could have arisen
> just from rhotic speakers hearing non-rhotic speakers saying 'idea' and
> maybe thinking it sounded like there was a non-rhotic /r/ there (think:
> "Fa, a long long way to run"). If you were in e.g. Boston, and you heard a
> local speaker say /ai'dia/, you might perceive the final sound as 'Boston
> dialect' for the -r sound, and assume you should say it with -r in YOUR
> rhotic dialect. This sort of thing happens all the time. Anyway, that's not
> important. 'Idear' is in no way etymologically sound (look at the Greek).
> But some of my (natively English speaking) relatives say 'idear.'
>
> It just sounded very funny to hear from non-native English speakers, *
> because* of its salient dialecticality in English. But I definitely think
> it is more of a weird lexical loan that non-native English speakers use
> (maybe they think it makes them sound more colloquial/native), rather than
> anything phonological.
>
> matt
>
> On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 3:39 PM, Roman Rausch  wrote:
>
>> I just came back from a physics workshop where I had noticed a peculiar
>> thing: Many people were pronouncing the word 'idea' as 'idear', with
>> r-colouring, and not just before vowels, but also in the plural 'ideas' =
>> 'idears'. I think the same happened in 'via' = 'viar'. None of them was a
>> native speaker and all spoke an American-influenced rhotic dialect. I first
>> noticed it in the speech of the chairman and it actually seems to me that
>> the others became influenced by him..
>> Is this effect widespread? Is it just due to an unfamiliarity with the
>> retroflex approximant? Did anybody observe something similar? I know about
>> linking/intrusive r in RP, but RP doesn't really have much influence in
>> science.
>>





Messages in this topic (12)

3j. Re: OT: weird intrusive -r in non-native English
Posted by: "George Corley" gacor...@gmail.com 
Date: Thu Sep 13, 2012 4:21 pm ((PDT))

On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 5:29 PM, Adam Walker  wrote:

> Yeah, I had been wondering if the "non-native" in question were Chinese.
> I've often hear Chinese speakers insert extra r's.  I can't say I've
> noticed anyone else do it.  Among Chiense speakers, I wonder if it isn't an
> importing or -er ending in the prestige dialect of Beijing.


I should note that, although the standard form Mandarin is based on
Beijinghua, and a few erhuayin forms are in the standard form, the high
number of erhuayin forms that occur in everyday speech of Beijingers is
sometimes quite fiendishly mocked by southerners and Taiwanese -- so it's
not entirely prestigious.





Messages in this topic (12)

3k. Re: OT: weird intrusive -r in non-native English
Posted by: "Adam Walker" carra...@gmail.com 
Date: Thu Sep 13, 2012 4:31 pm ((PDT))

On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 6:21 PM, George Corley  wrote:

> On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 5:29 PM, Adam Walker  wrote:
>
> > Yeah, I had been wondering if the "non-native" in question were Chinese.
> > I've often hear Chinese speakers insert extra r's.  I can't say I've
> > noticed anyone else do it.  Among Chiense speakers, I wonder if it isn't
> an
> > importing or -er ending in the prestige dialect of Beijing.
>
>
> I should note that, although the standard form Mandarin is based on
> Beijinghua, and a few erhuayin forms are in the standard form, the high
> number of erhuayin forms that occur in everyday speech of Beijingers is
> sometimes quite fiendishly mocked by southerners and Taiwanese -- so it's
> not entirely prestigious.
>

I'm well aware of how many Taiwanese look at the -er froms.  I lived in
Taiwan for 3 years, in the south, where anti-Mainland feeling runs high.
Still there is a sort of ambivalence on the order of "That's the best
Mandarin. (Doesn't it sound silly?)  You foreigners should learn to sound
like that, not like us.  (Don't they sound rediculous.)  We don't pronounce
things right.  (They sound like total idiots with all that -er flying
everywhere.)"

adam





Messages in this topic (12)

3l. Re: OT: weird intrusive -r in non-native English
Posted by: "Matthew Boutilier" bvticvlar...@gmail.com 
Date: Thu Sep 13, 2012 5:13 pm ((PDT))

>
> In the latter case, there's nothing etymologically unsound about "idear",
> since it's the regular outcome of the etymon.
>

Good point! I had not considered that the /-r/ could be seen as an
'expected' development onto the word, if this is a systematic change
occurring with all /-@/ words.

matt

On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 6:31 PM, Adam Walker  wrote:

> On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 6:21 PM, George Corley  wrote:
>
> > On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 5:29 PM, Adam Walker  wrote:
> >
> > > Yeah, I had been wondering if the "non-native" in question were
> Chinese.
> > > I've often hear Chinese speakers insert extra r's.  I can't say I've
> > > noticed anyone else do it.  Among Chiense speakers, I wonder if it
> isn't
> > an
> > > importing or -er ending in the prestige dialect of Beijing.
> >
> >
> > I should note that, although the standard form Mandarin is based on
> > Beijinghua, and a few erhuayin forms are in the standard form, the high
> > number of erhuayin forms that occur in everyday speech of Beijingers is
> > sometimes quite fiendishly mocked by southerners and Taiwanese -- so it's
> > not entirely prestigious.
> >
>
> I'm well aware of how many Taiwanese look at the -er froms.  I lived in
> Taiwan for 3 years, in the south, where anti-Mainland feeling runs high.
> Still there is a sort of ambivalence on the order of "That's the best
> Mandarin. (Doesn't it sound silly?)  You foreigners should learn to sound
> like that, not like us.  (Don't they sound rediculous.)  We don't pronounce
> things right.  (They sound like total idiots with all that -er flying
> everywhere.)"
>
> adam
>





Messages in this topic (12)






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[conlang] Digest Number 8781

[conlang]

There are 15 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: OT: weird intrusive -r in non-native English
From: Zach Wellstood
1b. Re: OT: weird intrusive -r in non-native English
From: Roger Mills
1c. Re: OT: weird intrusive -r in non-native English
From: Gary Shannon
1d. Re: OT: weird intrusive -r in non-native English
From: MorphemeAddict
1e. Re: OT: weird intrusive -r in non-native English
From: Douglas Koller
1f. Re: OT: weird intrusive -r in non-native English
From: George Corley
1g. Re: OT: weird intrusive -r in non-native English
From: Eric Christopherson
1h. Re: OT: weird intrusive -r in non-native English
From: And Rosta
1i. Re: OT: weird intrusive -r in non-native English
From: Douglas Koller
1j. Re: OT: weird intrusive -r in non-native English
From: Sam Stutter

2a. Re: Basic Word Lists
From: Eric Christopherson

3a. Jameld is 30
From: James Campbell
3b. Re: Jameld is 30
From: Douglas Koller
3c. OT: Conlang borthdays (was Re: Jameld is 30)
From: taliesin the storyteller
3d. Re: OT: Conlang borthdays (was Re: Jameld is 30)
From: Daniel Bowman


Messages

1a. Re: OT: weird intrusive -r in non-native English
Posted by: "Zach Wellstood" zwellst...@gmail.com 
Date: Thu Sep 13, 2012 6:52 pm ((PDT))

On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 7:21 PM, George Corley  wrote:

> On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 5:29 PM, Adam Walker  wrote:
>
> > Yeah, I had been wondering if the "non-native" in question were Chinese.
> > I've often hear Chinese speakers insert extra r's.  I can't say I've
> > noticed anyone else do it.  Among Chiense speakers, I wonder if it isn't
> an
> > importing or -er ending in the prestige dialect of Beijing.
>
>
> I should note that, although the standard form Mandarin is based on
> Beijinghua, and a few erhuayin forms are in the standard form, the high
> number of erhuayin forms that occur in everyday speech of Beijingers is
> sometimes quite fiendishly mocked by southerners and Taiwanese -- so it's
> not entirely prestigious.
>

I've been taught to speak with erhua (which I like the sound of), but have
been mocked many times by native speakers of Mandarin who tell me that it's
a very "nasty" feature to have (from mainland and not).

-- 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conlang>>
ra'aalalí 'a!





Messages in this topic (22)

1b. Re: OT: weird intrusive -r in non-native English
Posted by: "Roger Mills" romi...@yahoo.com 
Date: Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:38 pm ((PDT))

--- On Thu, 9/13/12, Gary Shannon  wrote:
It's common in the American midwest among native speakers. It sounds
odd to my west coast native ears, but it is one of the many native
oddities one hears over here.


That's certainly true-- but the odd thing IMO is that "idea" seems to be the 
only word so affected. At least as best I recall one or two of my classmates in 
grade school, whose pronunciation of that word was the bane of every teacher's 
existence :-)))

Can anyone else suggest more words with final [@]? I can only think of 'sofa', 
'Cuba', 'Virginia'.   I recall Pres. Kennedy had the "intrusive r" on a lot of 
words, but only before another vowel or phrase-final, and that's a legitimate 
feature of his Boston dialect (and quite a bit of the Northeast US). 





Messages in this topic (22)

1c. Re: OT: weird intrusive -r in non-native English
Posted by: "Gary Shannon" fizi...@gmail.com 
Date: Thu Sep 13, 2012 8:09 pm ((PDT))

On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 7:38 PM, Roger Mills  wrote:

>
> Can anyone else suggest more words with final [@]? I can only think of 
> 'sofa', 'Cuba', 'Virginia'.   I recall Pres. Kennedy had the "intrusive r" on 
> a lot of words, but only before another vowel or phrase-final, and that's a 
> legitimate feature of his Boston dialect (and quite a bit of the Northeast 
> US).

Here are a few more with (r) marking the ones I, personally, have heard with -r:

Monica, America, mollusca, Deluca, Nevada, Florida, propaganda, kinda,
soda, crustacea, idea(r), area, nausea, fa, sofa, omega, ha, Omaha,
alpha, Arabia, Acacia, Media, Encyclopedia, Georgia, Cynthia,
Australia, Pennsylvania, Virginia, California, paranoia, malaria,
Maria, hysteria, vodka, Nebraska, la, gala, Angela, fella, Campanella,
Cinderella(r), umbrella(r), vanilla, Alabama, ultima, coma, Oklahoma,
aroma, miasma, Indiana, Louisiana, Guiana, Montana, phenomena, hyena,
Ch

[conlang] Digest Number 8782

[conlang]

There are 7 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: OT: weird intrusive -r in non-native English
From: Matthew Boutilier
1b. Re: OT: weird intrusive -r in non-native English
From: Roger Mills
1c. Re: OT: weird intrusive -r in non-native English
From: Charles W Brickner

2a. Re: Jameld is 30
From: Adam Walker
2b. Re: Jameld is 30
From: Jennifer Collins-Jai
2c. Re: Jameld is 30
From: Puey McCleary

3a. Re: OT: Conlang borthdays (was Re: Jameld is 30)
From: Gary Shannon


Messages

1a. Re: OT: weird intrusive -r in non-native English
Posted by: "Matthew Boutilier" bvticvlar...@gmail.com 
Date: Fri Sep 14, 2012 6:25 am ((PDT))

>
> But it's not consistent with all vowels and it actually seems quite
> interesting.
>

Yep. Wikipedia suggests that it does not occur with high vowels (or, as
you've noted, with diphthongs ending on high vowels).

matt

On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 8:19 AM, Sam Stutter  wrote:

> On 13 Sep 2012, at 21:55, Matthew Boutilier 
> wrote:
> > My theory about it is as follows. 'Idear' is an English dialectical
> variant
> > of 'idea,' possibly going back to that thing that Brits do with inserting
> > /r/ between words ending with a vowel and words starting with a vowel ("I
> > saw-r-a film today, oh boy").
>
> Ooh, I never noticed I did this. But it's not consistent with all vowels
> and it actually seems quite interesting.
>
> The RP vowels which (for me at least - my accent doesn't have a few of
> these vowels so I'm having to "pretend to be posh" - and I've missed a
> couple out which are simply *too* posh) cause an insertion of /ɹ/ are:
>
> /ɑ/ - "I car a film" /kɑ ɹə/
> /e/ - "I bear a film" /be: ɹə/
> /ə/ - "I runner a film" /nə ɹə/
> /ɔ/ - "I saw a film" /sɔ ɹə/ (of course)
> /ɒ/ - "I loh a film" /lɒ ɹə/ (I'm allowed to make up words!)
> /ʌ/ -  hard to think of an actual example, but it almost certainly is /ʌ
> ɹə/
> /u/ - "I shoe a film" /ʃu ɹə/
> /ʊ/ - "I luh a film" /lʊ ɹə/
> /æ/ - "I kah a film" /kæ ɹə/
> /ɪ/ - "I bih a film" /bɪ ɹə/
>
> *However*
> /i/ - "I be a film" /bi jə/
>
> What's also interesting is how /ɪ/ causes /j/ when in diphthongs:
>
> /ʌɪ/ - "I buy a film" /bʌɪ jə/
> /ɔɪ/ - "I boy a film" /bɔɪ jə/
> /eɪ/ - "I say a film" /seɪ jə/
>
> And how other diphthongs cause /w/ instead:
> /əʊ/ - "I show a film" /ʃəʊ wə/
> /ɑʊ/ - "I cow a film" /kɑʊ wə/
>
> While the diphthongs which have evolved into single vowels in contemporary
> speech: /ɪə/ and /ɛə/ produce /ɹ/ even when diphthongs.
>
> What's peculiar is how these vowels are normally transcribed in English
> and how (for me at least) they have particular associations with the
> graphemes for approximants: "ar", "er" "or" "ay" "uy" "oy" "ow" etc. Is
> there an association - and in which case in which direction is it: did
> pronunciation affect transcription or does transcription affect how we
> think about the words (I know it's unlikely, but it was just a thought)?
>





Messages in this topic (25)

1b. Re: OT: weird intrusive -r in non-native English
Posted by: "Roger Mills" romi...@yahoo.com 
Date: Fri Sep 14, 2012 7:56 am ((PDT))

--- On Fri, 9/14/12, Douglas Koller  wrote:

 
> On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 7:38 PM, Roger Mills  wrote:

> > Can anyone else suggest more words with final [@]? I can only think of 
> > 'sofa', 'Cuba', 'Virginia'.   I recall Pres. Kennedy had the "intrusive r" 
> > on a lot of words, but only before another vowel or phrase-final, and 
> > that's a legitimate feature of his Boston dialect (and quite a bit of the 
> > Northeast US).
 
> Here are a few more with (r) marking the ones I, personally, have heard with 
> -r:
 
> Monica, America, mollusca, Deluca, Nevada, Florida, propaganda, kinda,
> soda, crustacea, idea(r), area, nausea, fa, sofa, omega, ha, Omaha,
> alpha, Arabia, Acacia, Media, Encyclopedia, Georgia, Cynthia,
> Australia, Pennsylvania, Virginia, California, paranoia, malaria,
> Maria, hysteria, vodka, Nebraska, la, gala, Angela, fella, Campanella,
> Cinderella(r), umbrella(r), vanilla, Alabama, ultima, coma, Oklahoma,
> aroma, miasma, Indiana, Louisiana, Guiana, Montana, phenomena, hyena,
> China, Carolina, wanna(r), gonna(r), Barcelona, fauna, pa, Nap

[conlang] Digest Number 8783

[conlang]

There are 14 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: OT: Conlang borthdays (was Re: Jameld is 30)
From: Charles W Brickner

2.1. Re: OT: weird intrusive -r in non-native English
From: Eric Christopherson
2.2. Re: OT: weird intrusive -r in non-native English
From: BPJ

3a. Re: Basic Word Lists
From: Padraic Brown
3b. Re: Basic Word Lists
From: Roger Mills

4a. development of syllabic fricatives
From: Alex Fink
4b. Re: development of syllabic fricatives
From: Eric Christopherson
4c. Re: development of syllabic fricatives
From: Matthew Boutilier
4d. Re: development of syllabic fricatives
From: Alex Fink
4e. Re: development of syllabic fricatives
From: Roman Rausch
4f. Re: development of syllabic fricatives
From: And Rosta
4g. Re: development of syllabic fricatives
From: George Corley

5a. Re: Jameld is 30
From: Herman Miller
5b. Re: Jameld is 30
From: James Campbell


Messages

1a. Re: OT: Conlang borthdays (was Re: Jameld is 30)
Posted by: "Charles W Brickner" tepeyach...@embarqmail.com 
Date: Fri Sep 14, 2012 10:49 am ((PDT))

From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:conl...@listserv.brown.edu] On
Behalf Of Gary Shannon

>I usually sketch out my preliminary ideas for a new
>conlang in a text document. That document will have a
>date created. That system is only good back to June
>26, 1998, the oldest file creation date in my conlang
>folder. Prior to that I only know for sure that my
>first conlang, Igpaya Ussianruski, was created in 1952.

I have no idea how old Senjecas is, but it's certainly older than text
documents.  I can remember visiting the Old Dominion University library
(Norfolk, VA, formerly a branch of William and Mary) and copying from
Pokorny's "Indogermanisches Etymologisches Wörterbuch" the words that formed
the foundation of the Senjecan vocabulary.  Everything was recorded in a
spiral notebook.  I never dreamed I'd be as involved with the language (and
with conlangery) as I am today.  That was over 35 years ago!  That's as
close as I can get to an age for Senejcas.

Charlie





Messages in this topic (11)


2.1. Re: OT: weird intrusive -r in non-native English
Posted by: "Eric Christopherson" ra...@charter.net 
Date: Fri Sep 14, 2012 12:04 pm ((PDT))

On Sep 14, 2012, at 11:19 AM, Charles W Brickner wrote:

> From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:conl...@listserv.brown.edu] On
> Behalf Of Eric Christopherson
> 
>> I get the impression "feller" is pretty common throughout
>> the US, but it most areas it's joking or affectionate.
>> (Of course the -a form already deviates from the standard _fellow_.)
> 
> I live in a part of the US that says "holler" instead of "hollow".  It
> denotes a narrow valley.  I can't verify that they use it attributively to
> mean "empty".
> 
> Folks hereabouts also say "chimbley" for "chimney".  What's that all about?

That's how it's pronounced in Cockney too. The explanation is that the sequence 
/mn/ was dissimilated into [ml], which then developed an intrusive stop of the 
same POA as the [m], i.e. [mbl].

The same happened in Spanish, except that the /n/ becomes [r] instead.




Messages in this topic (27)

2.2. Re: OT: weird intrusive -r in non-native English
Posted by: "BPJ" b...@melroch.se 
Date: Fri Sep 14, 2012 1:28 pm ((PDT))

On 2012-09-14 14:15, And Rosta wrote:
>>> On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 7:38 PM, Roger Mills
>>> wrote:
>>>> I recall Pres. Kennedy had the "intrusive r" on a lot of words,
>>>> but only before another vowel or phrase-final, and that's a
>>>> legitimate feature of his Boston dialect (and quite a bit of the
>>>> Northeast US).
>
> So in (some? all?) nonrhotic accents of the US, the rhotic "r"
> pops up phrase-finally? I didn't know that. In British & S
> Hemisphere nonrhotic accents, the rhotic "r" appears only when in
> an onset, so word-finally before a vowel, but never phrase-finally
> (except for an occasional irregular hypercareful pronunciation of
> _ar/R_).

That sounds entirely weird to me because in my
Gothenburg Swedish accent I have phrase-final /r/
*loss*, but preserve all intra-phrase /r/s, except
before /t d s n l/ where it's unconditionally lost in
my most inverted-prestige register, where I also have
reinterpretation of /r/-final mo

[conlang] Digest Number 8784

[conlang]

Adam

On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 3:08 PM, Michael D. Martin
wrote:

> Isolated in a list like this I would read them as nouns, without any other
> context to go by.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:conl...@listserv.brown.edu] On
> Behalf Of Zach Wellstood
> Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2012 12:47 PM
> To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
> Subject: OT: Which is the default for stress in English?
>
> (Not sure if this is OT.)
> liyaá' łí'!
>
> I was just reading an article and daydreaming about pairs like prógress /
> progréss, récord / recórd, cónflict / conflíct, etc. in English. I was
> wondering, if you had a list of non-contextual, unmarked words that could
> be initial-stress derivations, like this:
>
> - record
> - progress
> - conflict
> - permit
> - entrance
>
> etc.
>
> What would native English speakers think of by default, a noun or a verb?
> I can't do the test because now I'm biased in thinking about it, but I
> think it would be an interesting test to see what the majority of people
> use as the default form. Maybe it's completely random, maybe someone's done
> it before? Maybe this has no bearing on anything! (But I still think it
> would be interesting.)
>
> Just thought I'd share. Does anyone know if anyone has done this?
>
> Zach
>





Messages in this topic (9)

3d. Re: Which is the default for stress in English?
Posted by: "Zach Wellstood" zwellst...@gmail.com 
Date: Sat Sep 15, 2012 1:40 pm ((PDT))

That's an interesting thought, that their personal experience and other
extralinguistic stuff might affect their perception of the words. I was
also thinking that maybe it would depend on the frequency of each word. For
instance, I think that éntrance is used much more frequently than entránce
is, but that rejéct is used more commonly than réject. I do think that it
would probably be more or less uniform down the list, but maybe more common
ones, like I said, would take precedence regardless of what Subject A had
been saying before ( > noun or > verb).

I kind of want to use all of my friends for this test just to see what
happens.

Zach

On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 4:34 PM, Adam Walker  wrote:

> I *think* that you would be very likey to get unform responses down the
> list.  In other words if Subject A read the first word as a noun he/she is
> likely to read the entire list as nouns, and if Subject B reads the first
> item as a verb he/she is likely to read the entier list as verbs.  And you
> might get different results from the same subject depending on which item
> begins the list.  Foe example if the list starts with "record" and Subjec A
> is works in the music industry they are likely to interpred that item as
> the verb they use frequently in their work, but if they are an athlete
> focused on setting a new performance standard in their sport, it will be a
> noun.  But those same tow people might interpret the list differently if it
> started with conflict.  I have nothing to back up anything I've just said
> but my own intuition, so salt liberally.
>
> Adam
>
> On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 3:08 PM, Michael D. Martin
> wrote:
>
> > Isolated in a list like this I would read them as nouns, without any
> other
> > context to go by.
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:conl...@listserv.brown.edu] On
> > Behalf Of Zach Wellstood
> > Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2012 12:47 PM
> > To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
> > Subject: OT: Which is the default for stress in English?
> >
> > (Not sure if this is OT.)
> > liyaá' łí'!
> >
> > I was just reading an article and daydreaming about pairs like prógress /
> > progréss, récord / recórd, cónflict / conflíct, etc. in English. I was
> > wondering, if you had a list of non-contextual, unmarked words that could
> > be initial-stress derivations, like this:
> >
> > - record
> > - progress
> > - conflict
> > - permit
> > - entrance
> >
> > etc.
> >
> > What would native English speakers think of by default, a noun or a verb?
> > I can't do the test because now I'm biased in thinking about it, but I
> > think it would be an interesting test to see what the majority of people
> > use as the default form. Maybe it's completely random, maybe someone's
> done
> > it before? Maybe this has no bearing on anything! (But I still think it
> > would be interesting.)
> >
> > Just thought I'd share. Does anyone know if anyone has done this

[conlang] Digest Number 8785

[conlang]

There are 3 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: development of syllabic fricatives
From: David McCann

2a. Re: Which is the default for stress in English?
From: David McCann
2b. Re: Which is the default for stress in English?
From: Zach Wellstood


Messages

1a. Re: development of syllabic fricatives
Posted by: "David McCann" da...@polymathy.plus.com 
Date: Sun Sep 16, 2012 8:31 am ((PDT))

On Sat, 15 Sep 2012 13:29:03 -0400
Alex Fink <000...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sat, 15 Sep 2012 15:17:01 +0100, And Rosta 
> wrote:
> 
> >Does Czech have a /r/ that is phonetically a voiced coronal
> >fricative but behaves like a sonorant & can be syllabic? Not really
> >a case of fricatives per se becoming syllabic, tho.
> 
> Good question.  Wikipedia says "but in some cases syllabic sonorants
> (/r/ and /l/, rarely also /m/ and /n/) can be found in the nucleus",
> being silent on raised /r_r/.  Then on
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3ASyllabic_consonant , Hexagon1
> "can't recall any syllabic ř's".

The syllabic sonorants arose in Czech from the loss of the Old Slavonic
jers: vŭlk > vlk, osmĭ > osm. The sound /ř/ developed much later from
the palatisation of /r/: it's only after 1300 that the Czechs felt the
need to write 'rzici' instead of 'rici' (modern řici).





Messages in this topic (12)


2a. Re: Which is the default for stress in English?
Posted by: "David McCann" da...@polymathy.plus.com 
Date: Sun Sep 16, 2012 8:36 am ((PDT))

On Sat, 15 Sep 2012 17:06:37 -0400
Zach Wellstood  wrote:
> Is the book by Chomsky & Halle worth a read? Amazon has it for a
> fairly cheap price, so if it is I might consider getting it just to
> have.

Personally, I think it's one of the worst books on linguistics I've
ever read! A textbook demonstration of circular argument.





Messages in this topic (11)

2b. Re: Which is the default for stress in English?
Posted by: "Zach Wellstood" zwellst...@gmail.com 
Date: Sun Sep 16, 2012 9:07 am ((PDT))

On Sun, Sep 16, 2012 at 11:36 AM, David McCann wrote:

> On Sat, 15 Sep 2012 17:06:37 -0400
> Zach Wellstood  wrote:
> > Is the book by Chomsky & Halle worth a read? Amazon has it for a
> > fairly cheap price, so if it is I might consider getting it just to
> > have.
>
> Personally, I think it's one of the worst books on linguistics I've
> ever read! A textbook demonstration of circular argument.
>


I literally just purchased it from Amazon, so I'll have to take a look
through and see what I think!

Zach

-- 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conlang>>
ra'aalalí 'a!





Messages in this topic (11)





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[conlang] Digest Number 8786

[conlang]

There are 15 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Which is the default for stress in English?
From: And Rosta

2a. Word classes not based upon gender or animacy
From: Sam Stutter
2b. Re: Word classes not based upon gender or animacy
From: Dustfinger Batailleur
2c. Re: Word classes not based upon gender or animacy
From: Sam Stutter
2d. Re: Word classes not based upon gender or animacy
From: George Corley
2e. Re: Word classes not based upon gender or animacy
From: Serafin Finrij
2f. Re: Word classes not based upon gender or animacy
From: JS Bangs
2g. Re: Word classes not based upon gender or animacy
From: John Erickson
2h. Re: Word classes not based upon gender or animacy
From: George Corley

3a. Theory: New Conlang proposal: layer_TEXT 10.3
From: Nonu Iazabo
3b. Re: Theory: New Conlang proposal: layer_TEXT 10.3
From: Padraic Brown
3c. Re: Theory: New Conlang proposal: layer_TEXT 10.3
From: Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets
3d. Re: Theory: New Conlang proposal: layer_TEXT 10.3
From: Nonu Iazabo
3e. Re: Theory: New Conlang proposal: layer_TEXT 10.3
From: Nonu Iazabo

4. St. Hildegard of Bingen
From: Charlie Brickner


Messages

1a. Re: Which is the default for stress in English?
Posted by: "And Rosta" and.ro...@gmail.com 
Date: Sun Sep 16, 2012 9:32 am ((PDT))

David McCann, On 16/09/2012 16:36:
> On Sat, 15 Sep 2012 17:06:37 -0400
> Zach Wellstood  wrote:
>> Is the book by Chomsky&  Halle worth a read? Amazon has it for a
>> fairly cheap price, so if it is I might consider getting it just to
>> have.
>
> Personally, I think it's one of the worst books on linguistics I've
> ever read! A textbook demonstration of circular argument.

I disagree with almost everything in it, but nevertheless I think it's a superb 
book. In linguistics proper, argumentation is inherently circular: all the 
facts are (in principle) known in advance, and then the task is to find the 
best rule system for generating those facts; there's no step-by-step way to do 
that.

Needless to say, many disagree with this view, for any of several different 
reasons.

--And.





Messages in this topic (12)


2a. Word classes not based upon gender or animacy
Posted by: "Sam Stutter" samjj...@gmail.com 
Date: Sun Sep 16, 2012 11:53 am ((PDT))

At the moment I'm throwing around the idea of a language with an extensive word 
class system. I've done word classes before, with Nauspayr, which has 4 quite 
complex classes. However, these classes, when you get down to it, are based 
upon very simple, traditional word class lines: there's a masculine, a 
feminine, man-made and movement-transfer. 

However, my current idea is for 12 word classes based on a conculture sketch's 
perception of 12 universal oppositions in the world; interest-alarm, 
lust-revulsion, surprise-indifference, expectation-fear, grace-rage, 
triumph-grief, pride-shame, temperance-greed, adoration-hate, wisdom-folly, 
pain-pleasure. Partly I'm inspired by ol' Terry Pratchett's idea of four 
universal forces: charm, persuasion, uncertainty and bloody-mindedness, partly 
by having played _Bastion_ too much recently (with its 10 gods of oppositions).

The thing is that the 12 classes don't permit the "usual" boundaries for word 
classes: animacy, size and gender. Neither do I particularly want to tread the 
same path twice. What I wondered was, are there any languages (natural or 
constructed) out there which have word classes not based upon gender or 
animacy? Of course, I understand that there will probably come a situation 
where I need to chose where "man" and "woman" fit into the system (and where 
"rock" and "human" fit as well), but what I want is a system by which I can 
say, for example, "owl" fits into "wisdom-folly" because of X and "sparrow" 
fits into "triumph-grief" because of Y, despite their both being masculine and 
having the same level of animacy.

1) Is there an ANADEW?
2) Or is there an existing conlang?

I wouldn't mind looking into them to try and understand how I would map random 
nouns onto somewhat random concepts.

3) If not, do people think it's possible to do - and do well?
4) If yes, does anyone have any ideas?

Sam Stutter
samjj...@gmail.com
"No e na'l cu barri"





Messages in this topic (8)

2b. Re: Word classes not based upon gender or animacy
Posted by: "Dustfinger Batailleur"

[conlang] Digest Number 8787

[conlang]

There are 2 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Word classes not based upon gender or animacy
From: JS Bangs
1b. Re: Word classes not based upon gender or animacy
From: George Corley


Messages

1a. Re: Word classes not based upon gender or animacy
Posted by: "JS Bangs" jas...@gmail.com 
Date: Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:41 am ((PDT))

> All of the categories that have been mentioned in this thread are *actually
> attested* in natlangs.  There's no "unnatural" or contrarian doubts to be
> had -- unless you are ready to dispute the analysis of Bantu and find
> another system for the many noun classes that exist there -- your statement
> is essentially contradicting empirical facts.

I think we're talking past each other. The system I was referring to
wasn't the Bantu or Dyirbal systems, but Sam's proposed system of
twelve oppositions. The Bantu system of " humans; trees and natural
forces; groups and augmentatives; instruments and diminutives;
animals, loanwords and others; extensions (things broad like a wall or
long like a strand of hair); and finally abstractions" fits quite well
with the argument that I sketched below, since the semantic core of
the Bantu classes described above are still things which are
immediately observable and accessible to a pre-linguistic and
pre-cultural infant.

> Of course they can.  Gender distinctions are largely arbitrary in the first
> place.  There is no reason for a child to believe (for example) that a
> chair is female.  What's  more, I think that for children,
> animate/inanimate might not come all that quickly, given children's
> tendency to personify EVERYTHING.

Personification and animacy are different things. Infants distinguish
between animate and inanimate before they reach the age of 1; the fact
that they later engage in pervasive personification doesn't mean that
the distinction is lost on them. And with gender, the semantic prime
is not gender but *sex*, which infants learn to recognize from a very
young age. In an IE-style two-gender system, the extension of the M-F
distinction to the rest of the lexicon is completely arbitrary, but
children are still able to get a toehold into the system by leveraging
their existing cognitive awareness of male and female.

-- 
JS Bangs
jas...@gmail.com
http://jsbangs.wordpress.com

"Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle" -Philo of Alexandria





Messages in this topic (10)

1b. Re: Word classes not based upon gender or animacy
Posted by: "George Corley" gacor...@gmail.com 
Date: Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:51 am ((PDT))

On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 9:40 AM, JS Bangs  wrote:

> > All of the categories that have been mentioned in this thread are
> *actually
> > attested* in natlangs.  There's no "unnatural" or contrarian doubts to be
> > had -- unless you are ready to dispute the analysis of Bantu and find
> > another system for the many noun classes that exist there -- your
> statement
> > is essentially contradicting empirical facts.
>
> I think we're talking past each other. The system I was referring to
> wasn't the Bantu or Dyirbal systems, but Sam's proposed system of
> twelve oppositions. The Bantu system of " humans; trees and natural
> forces; groups and augmentatives; instruments and diminutives;
> animals, loanwords and others; extensions (things broad like a wall or
> long like a strand of hair); and finally abstractions" fits quite well
> with the argument that I sketched below, since the semantic core of
> the Bantu classes described above are still things which are
> immediately observable and accessible to a pre-linguistic and
> pre-cultural infant.
>

The oppositions might be a little too much, but IMO it's mainly because
it's too "clean".  A normal gender system will have one, maybe two
"oppositions" (masculine/feminine or animate/inanimate), whereas when you
get more than three noun classes it seems like one of two things happen --
1) it reflects and animacy hierarchy in some way, or 2) a couple classes
reflect animacy, and the rest are a grab-bag of semantic relationships that
may have no relationship between classes (or may include a "miscellaneous"
category to boot).





Messages in this topic (10)





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[conlang] Digest Number 8788

[conlang]

There are 15 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Which is the default for stress in English?
From: Michael Everson
1b. Re: Which is the default for stress in English?
From: Brian Woodward
1c. Re: Which is the default for stress in English?
From: Zach Wellstood

2a. Re: Theory: New Conlang proposal: layer_TEXT 10.3
From: Gary Shannon
2b. Re: Theory: New Conlang proposal: layer_TEXT 10.3
From: Padraic Brown
2c. Re: Theory: New Conlang proposal: layer_TEXT 10.3
From: Padraic Brown
2d. Re: Theory: New Conlang proposal: layer_TEXT 10.3
From: Roman Rausch

3a. Re: Word classes not based upon gender or animacy
From: Dirk Elzinga
3b. Re: Word classes not based upon gender or animacy
From: George Corley
3c. Re: Word classes not based upon gender or animacy
From: Alex Fink
3d. Re: Word classes not based upon gender or animacy
From: Leonardo Castro
3e. Re: Word classes not based upon gender or animacy
From: George Corley
3f. Re: Word classes not based upon gender or animacy
From: Roger Mills
3g. Re: Word classes not based upon gender or animacy
From: Roger Mills

4a. Re: St. Hildegard of Bingen
From: Jörg Rhiemeier


Messages

1a. Re: Which is the default for stress in English?
Posted by: "Michael Everson" ever...@evertype.com 
Date: Mon Sep 17, 2012 10:01 am ((PDT))

On 15 Sep 2012, at 21:08, Michael D. Martin wrote:

> Isolated in a list like this I would read them as nouns, without any other 
> context to go by.

So would I, and I think the reason is that the default stress (à la langue 
germanique) falls on the first syllable. 

> - record
> - progress
> - conflict
> - permit
> - entrance

Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/





Messages in this topic (15)

1b. Re: Which is the default for stress in English?
Posted by: "Brian Woodward" alarj...@gmail.com 
Date: Mon Sep 17, 2012 10:23 am ((PDT))

I just showed this list to my wife (who had her prior military career on
her mind because we were just talking about it) and she pronounced all of
them as nouns (i.e. with the stress on the first syllable).

Brian

On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 12:01 PM, Michael Everson wrote:

> On 15 Sep 2012, at 21:08, Michael D. Martin wrote:
>
> > Isolated in a list like this I would read them as nouns, without any
> other context to go by.
>
> So would I, and I think the reason is that the default stress (à la langue
> germanique) falls on the first syllable.
>
> > - record
> > - progress
> > - conflict
> > - permit
> > - entrance
>
> Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
>





Messages in this topic (15)

1c. Re: Which is the default for stress in English?
Posted by: "Zach Wellstood" zwellst...@gmail.com 
Date: Mon Sep 17, 2012 11:29 am ((PDT))

I have a more extensive list of about 50 (so far) that I'm working on, and
I showed them to a friend via Skype so she could say them aloud, and she
had very mixed results. I plan on (abusing) taking advantage of my other
friends just for fun, to see what the outcome is.

I expect that they'll probably follow with the noun-default thing others
have been mentioning, though.

Zach

On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 1:23 PM, Brian Woodward  wrote:

> I just showed this list to my wife (who had her prior military career on
> her mind because we were just talking about it) and she pronounced all of
> them as nouns (i.e. with the stress on the first syllable).
>
> Brian
>
> On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 12:01 PM, Michael Everson  >wrote:
>
> > On 15 Sep 2012, at 21:08, Michael D. Martin wrote:
> >
> > > Isolated in a list like this I would read them as nouns, without any
> > other context to go by.
> >
> > So would I, and I think the reason is that the default stress (à la
> langue
> > germanique) falls on the first syllable.
> >
> > > - record
> > > - progress
> > > - conflict
> > > - permit
> > > - entrance
> >
> > Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
> >
>



-- 
ra'aalalí 'aa! - [sirisaá! <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conlang>]





Messages in this topic (15)


2a. Re: Theory: New Conlang proposal: layer_TEXT 10.3
Posted by: "Gary Shannon" fizi...@gmail.com 
Date: Mon Sep 17, 2012 10:14 am ((PDT))

No offence intended, but it took me quite a long time to figure out
what yo

[conlang] Digest Number 8789

[conlang]

There are 9 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Siye: A Passionate Lover of Mars
From: Anthony Miles

2. Vowel Harmony in Siye
From: Anthony Miles

3. Suffix Order in Siye
From: Anthony Miles

4.1. Re: Group Project Language was Re: Fiat Lingua, September: Is a Coll
From: Anthony Miles

5a. Re: Word classes not based upon gender or animacy
From: Eric Christopherson

6a. Re: Theory: New Conlang proposal: layer_TEXT 10.3
From: Nonu Iazabo
6b. Re: Theory: New Conlang proposal: layer_TEXT 10.3
From: Nonu Iazabo
6c. Re: Theory: New Conlang proposal: layer_TEXT 10.3
From: Nonu Iazabo
6d. Re: Theory: New Conlang proposal: layer_TEXT 10.3
From: Nonu Iazabo


Messages

1a. Re: Siye: A Passionate Lover of Mars
Posted by: "Anthony Miles" mamercu...@gmail.com 
Date: Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:56 pm ((PDT))

To answer both questions, the song is "The Banks of the Ohio" (Kemhusaki 
Okiomeso), and the lyrics say nothing about what the bride says. The chorus 
only implies that she refused to run away with him.





Messages in this topic (5)


2. Vowel Harmony in Siye
Posted by: "Anthony Miles" mamercu...@gmail.com 
Date: Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:31 pm ((PDT))

This is not final yet, but the newest additions to Siye are vowel harmony and a 
question about the positions of various parts of the verbs (the latter will be 
a different post, I think).
Vowel Harmony:
I'm satisfied that vowel harmony will not disrupt my agglutinative suffixing or 
the practical orthography, so now Siye vowel harmony is plus or minus 
roundedness, based on the vocalic or nominal root. The suppletive nature of 
many Siye roots makes this fun to produce and maddening to missionaries on Mars.
ipelipusumtenamamo?
[the imperfective root is -li-, therefore the vowels are unrounded]
i-pe-li-pu-sum-te-na-me-a-mo
3an-2-eat.IMPFV-SG-CAUS-VOL-DIR.UP-ASP.IMPFV-POSITIVE.REALIS-Q
Will you feed him?
ipeyopusumtenanamo?
[the perfective root is -yo-, therefore the vowels are rounded]
i-pe-yo-pu-sum-te-na-ne-a-mo
3an-2-eat.PFV-SG-CAUS-VOL-DIR.UP-ASP.PFV-POSITIVE.REALIS-Q
Have you fed him?





Messages in this topic (1)


3. Suffix Order in Siye
Posted by: "Anthony Miles" mamercu...@gmail.com 
Date: Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:57 pm ((PDT))

I was thinking about the affix order in the Siye verb. The full order is
[PERSONAL 
PREFIXES-ROOT-NUMBER-CAUSATIVE-AUXILIARY-DIRECTIONAL-ASPECT-MOOD-RELATIONAL]
Since Siye and and its ancestors are SOV, the auxiliary should follow the verb:
[PERSONAL PREFIXES-ROOT-NUMBER-CAUSATIVE]
[AUXILIARY-DIRECTIONAL-ASPECT-MOOD-RELATIONAL]
I've been worried the aspect and mood are rather far from the verb stem (the 
relationals double as clause-final particle., so they should be far away). Then 
I thought: perhaps the directional, aspect, and mood suffixes are the affixed 
remnants of independent particles. These particles applied to the whole clause 
and therefore appeared at the end of the clause. My question is this: since a 
topicalized subject changes order from SOV to OVS, would it be probable for the 
directional, aspect, and mood aspect to affix to the S of a sentence with OVS 
syntax?





Messages in this topic (1)


4.1. Re: Group Project Language was Re: Fiat Lingua, September: Is a Coll
Posted by: "Anthony Miles" mamercu...@gmail.com 
Date: Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:59 pm ((PDT))

I would consider participating in such a project.





Messages in this topic (36)


5a. Re: Word classes not based upon gender or animacy
Posted by: "Eric Christopherson" ra...@charter.net 
Date: Mon Sep 17, 2012 9:38 pm ((PDT))

On Sep 17, 2012, at 2:29 PM, Alex Fink wrote:
> Extrapolating on those lines I guess I could see a class system developing 
> from pure morphophonemics via mutation-inducing-type sound changes and then 
> syntactically generalised.  Is thàt common (in the absence of semantic class)?

Could you expand on that, Alex?





Messages in this topic (18)

________
6a. Re: Theory: New Conlang proposal: layer_TEXT 10.3
Posted by: "Nonu Iazabo" carlos.fernan...@iaza

[conlang] Digest Number 8790

[conlang]

There are 3 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Word classes not based upon gender or animacy
From: Alex Fink

2a. Re: St. Hildegard of Bingen
From: Jim Henry

3. Sumerian
From: Sylvia Sotomayor


Messages

1a. Re: Word classes not based upon gender or animacy
Posted by: "Alex Fink" 000...@gmail.com 
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2012 11:18 am ((PDT))

On Mon, 17 Sep 2012 23:37:37 -0500, Eric Christopherson  
wrote:

>On Sep 17, 2012, at 2:29 PM, Alex Fink wrote:
>> Extrapolating on those lines I guess I could see a class system developing 
>> from pure morphophonemics via mutation-inducing-type sound changes and then 
>> syntactically generalised.  Is thàt common (in the absence of semantic 
>> class)?
>
>Could you expand on that, Alex?

Sure.  Let's say we've got a language with fairly consistent noun-modifier 
order:
  _taka pen_   dog white   'white dog'
  _box pen_   chicken white   'white chicken'
And suppose these noun phrases are closely bound, single breath groups or 
whatever.  Now suppose we have a (Celtic-oid) frication of intervocalic stops 
including across these word boundaries, followed (at some remove?) by loss of 
word-final V.  
  _tax fen_   'white dog'
  _box pen_   'white chicken'
This is now (close to) a class system where now 'dog' is in leniting class and 
'chicken' is in nonleniting class, the division being originally phonological 
rather than semantic but no longer _recoverably_ phonological (in all cases).  
Further developments could reinforce the class interpretation by say keeping 
the mutations even after the lang switches to modifier-noun order, or by 
deriving a new predicative adj construction from this attributive one which 
keeps the mutation, or suchlike.  

Alex





Messages in this topic (19)


2a. Re: St. Hildegard of Bingen
Posted by: "Jim Henry" jimhenry1...@gmail.com 
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2012 6:08 pm ((PDT))

On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 7:16 AM, Charlie Brickner
 wrote:
> Happy St. Hildegard of Bingen's feastday to all!

Yay St Hildegard!

Here is something I posted last year:

http://jimhenry.conlang.org/gzb/hildegard.html

-- 
Jim Henry
http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/





Messages in this topic (3)


3. Sumerian
Posted by: "Sylvia Sotomayor" terje...@gmail.com 
Date: Wed Sep 19, 2012 6:49 am ((PDT))

This is sort of linguistics related:

http://urcrowdsource.org/omeka/

-S

-- 
Sylvia Sotomayor

The sooner I fall behind the more time I have to catch up.





Messages in this topic (1)





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[conlang] Digest Number 8791

[conlang]

There are 15 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. viral conlanging
From: Wm Annis
1b. Re: viral conlanging
From: George Corley
1c. Re: viral conlanging
From: Daniel Bowman
1d. Re: viral conlanging
From: Alex Fink
1e. Re: viral conlanging
From: Daniel Bowman
1f. Re: viral conlanging
From: Daniel Bowman
1g. Re: viral conlanging
From: George Corley
1h. Re: viral conlanging
From: Eric Christopherson
1i. Re: viral conlanging
From: Eric Christopherson
1j. Re: viral conlanging
From: Alex Fink
1k. Re: viral conlanging
From: Daniel Bowman

2a. SET CONLANG MAIL
From: R A Brown
2b. Re: SET CONLANG MAIL
From: R A Brown

3a. Re: Word classes not based upon gender or animacy
From: Jeff Sheets
3b. Re: Word classes not based upon gender or animacy
From: Alex Fink


Messages

1a. viral conlanging
Posted by: "Wm Annis" wm.an...@gmail.com 
Date: Wed Sep 19, 2012 10:41 am ((PDT))

I was working out the best sound for a new commentary particle
for Kahtsaai last night.  For some reason, I wanted two versions
of the thing, one more amenable to distorting out for a good long
time.  I started out with {ópa} and among the longer variants was
{ópaan}, which made me start swearing.  That damned "Gangnam
Style" song has lodged a word shape in my brain!

--
wm





Messages in this topic (11)

1b. Re: viral conlanging
Posted by: "George Corley" gacor...@gmail.com 
Date: Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:12 am ((PDT))

On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 12:41 PM, Wm Annis  wrote:

> I was working out the best sound for a new commentary particle
> for Kahtsaai last night.  For some reason, I wanted two versions
> of the thing, one more amenable to distorting out for a good long
> time.  I started out with {ópa} and among the longer variants was
> {ópaan}, which made me start swearing.  That damned "Gangnam
> Style" song has lodged a word shape in my brain!
>

Funny that that particular word would get stuck.  "Gangnam" itself  is such
an enegmatic word.  It took me several listens to hear it correctly (like
most English speakers, it seems, I kept hearing "Gundam").





Messages in this topic (11)

1c. Re: viral conlanging
Posted by: "Daniel Bowman" danny.c.bow...@gmail.com 
Date: Wed Sep 19, 2012 12:17 pm ((PDT))

>
> Funny that that particular word would get stuck.  "Gangnam" itself  is such
> an enegmatic word.  It took me several listens to hear it correctly (like
> most English speakers, it seems, I kept hearing "Gundam").
>

I asked a Korean graduate student whom I work with about "Gangnam."  It's
apparently the southern part of Seoul and is known for its rich
neighbourhoods.  After living in Korea for almost a year I definitely can
hear the "Gangnam" but I would write it "Kangnam".  In my ears the "g"
sounds more like a "k" (the letter in hangeul can take a "g" sound
sometimes and also sometimes a "k" sound).

Incidentally the g/k duality has found its way into my conlang Angosey
because of Korean.  Now /g/ becomes /k/ in front of /o/.  So "Angosey" is
pronounced more like "Ankosey".

In addition, everything I do now has the phase "Gangnam style" appended to
it.  I'm going for a run later.  Gangnam style.





Messages in this topic (11)

1d. Re: viral conlanging
Posted by: "Alex Fink" 000...@gmail.com 
Date: Wed Sep 19, 2012 12:40 pm ((PDT))

On Wed, 19 Sep 2012 15:17:08 -0400, Daniel Bowman  
wrote:

>I asked a Korean graduate student whom I work with about "Gangnam."  It's
>apparently the southern part of Seoul and is known for its rich
>neighbourhoods.  

For considerably more background: 
http://mydearkorea.blogspot.com/2012/08/korean-music-psys-gangnam-style-and.html

>After living in Korea for almost a year I definitely can
>hear the "Gangnam" but I would write it "Kangnam".  In my ears the "g"
>sounds more like a "k" (the letter in hangeul can take a "g" sound
>sometimes and also sometimes a "k" sound).
>
>Incidentally the g/k duality has found its way into my conlang Angosey
>because of Korean.  Now /g/ becomes /k/ in front of /o/.  So "Angosey" is
>pronounced more like "Ankosey".

Good ear -- but the Korean behaviour is principled phonology, not some random 
idiosyncrasy!  Korean has three series of stops: in the velars they are

[conlang] Digest Number 8792

[conlang]

There is 1 message in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: viral conlanging
From: Roger Mills


Message

1a. Re: viral conlanging
Posted by: "Roger Mills" romi...@yahoo.com 
Date: Thu Sep 20, 2012 9:38 am ((PDT))

--- On Thu, 9/20/12, Eric Christopherson  wrote:
On Sep 19, 2012, at 3:35 PM, George Corley wrote:

How about a language which (and this is inspired by the recent Ogami article 
links):
- starts out having only voiceless stops
- devoices high vowels unless adjacent to a voiced sound
- then stops in between voiced vowels themselves become voiced
- then the vowel voiced/voiceless distinction dies out?
===

At first reading that struck me as contradictory if not impossible, but on 2nd 
thought:

/pita/ voicing would be - - - +  right?

/piti/ would be all - voice right?

/pini/ would be - - + + or would it be - + + + ?

/pata/ would be - + - +, > later [pada]

/miti/ would be + + - -

/nata/ would be + + - +  later [nada], while /nini, nana/ would be all voiced 
(and no change)

Maybe step 3 should say "stops _adjacent_ to voiced vowels become voiced" -- 
that would lead to pita > pida  (now - - + +, maybe - + + + ?) and miti > midi 
(now + + + +), and I think pini - -  + + > - + + +  (?) but it''s hard to 
see how /piti/ could everget a t > d change. And step 4 seems difficult. Maybe 
you have a natlang precedent? 

What about stress? might that affect the voice of vowels following a vl. stop?

Maybe I should see some examples





Messages in this topic (12)






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[conlang] Digest Number 8793

[conlang]

There are 14 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: viral conlanging
From: Roman Rausch

2.1. Re: Word classes not based upon gender or animacy
From: George Corley
2.2. Re: Word classes not based upon gender or animacy
From: taliesin the storyteller
2.3. Re: Word classes not based upon gender or animacy
From: Alex Fink
2.4. Re: Word classes not based upon gender or animacy
From: Jeff Sheets
2.5. Re: Word classes not based upon gender or animacy
From: Eric Christopherson
2.6. Re: Word classes not based upon gender or animacy
From: George Corley
2.7. Re: Word classes not based upon gender or animacy
From: Eric Christopherson
2.8. Re: Word classes not based upon gender or animacy
From: George Corley
2.9. Re: Word classes not based upon gender or animacy
From: Virginia Keys
2.10. Re: Word classes not based upon gender or animacy
From: taliesin the storyteller

3a. OT: Re: SET CONLANG MAIL
From: taliesin the storyteller
3b. Re: OT: Re: SET CONLANG MAIL
From: Padraic Brown
3c. Re: OT: Re: SET CONLANG MAIL
From: Sam Stutter


Messages

1a. Re: viral conlanging
Posted by: "Roman Rausch" ara...@mail.ru 
Date: Thu Sep 20, 2012 1:55 pm ((PDT))

>How about a language which (and this is inspired by the recent Ogami article 
>links):
>- starts out having only voiceless stops
>- devoices high vowels unless adjacent to a voiced sound
>- then stops in between voiced vowels themselves become voiced
>- then the vowel voiced/voiceless distinction dies out

I once read a paper where the devoicing of high vowels in Japanese was 
explained by the sonority hierarchy: It turns out that there are gradations 
within the vowels themselves, so that low ones are louder than high ones - I 
guess because the airflow is even less unrestricted for them (perhaps it also 
has to do with the [a:] interjection of pain etc. - but I'm not sure how 
universal it actually is). In the paper, this idea was also fortified by a 
study of how pitch accent depends on vowel height in various dialects (which I 
don't remember that well).

In any case, if a language is sensitive to that sort of thing, I could very 
well imagine that voiceless consonants before low vowels get voiced, so you'd 
have _ga, ge, go_, but _ki, ku_. This would actually be an additional way to 
distinguish /e/ and /o/ from /i/ and /u/: Speakers can get lax on the vowel 
quality as long as voicing of the preceding consonant gives them an extra clue.





Messages in this topic (13)


2.1. Re: Word classes not based upon gender or animacy
Posted by: "George Corley" gacor...@gmail.com 
Date: Thu Sep 20, 2012 2:11 pm ((PDT))

On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 11:07 AM, Alex Fink <000...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Replying for now only to the less-interesting part, which reminds me of a
> question:
>
> On Thu, 20 Sep 2012 10:46:43 -0500, Jeff Sheets 
> wrote:
>
> >Gender suffixes are also available, but are purely derivational morphemes
> >and have no grammatical purpose. There are suffixes for masculine,
> >feminine, androgynous, genderless, and ambiguous gender. Genders can even
> >be combined to indicate more detail, in a manner similar to compounding.
> In
> >Krig, gender is far less important, so the last interlinear above actually
> >can mean either "he is my husband" or "she is my wife." If a person wants
> >to specify the genders, it's possible.
>
> I'm curious how common _derivational_ sex marking is in natlangs, as
> opposed to _analytic_ ("male N", "female N"), for these sorts of
> situations.  My first impulse would be to say "less than people soaked in
> Indo-European / Semitic / etc. might think"; but then there's
> http://wals.info/chapter/31 which says that three quarters of gender
> systems feature sex, so that for derivational systems something similar may
> be true.  Has anyone seen figures?
>
> Also, public service announcement: since "gender" can be simply a synonym
> of "noun class", it's better to use "sex" when one means femaleness vs.
> maleness (as e.g. in the thread title).
>

Not sure what you mean.  Chinese regularly uses 男nan2/女nü3 for male/female
in humans, and 公gong1/母mu3 for animals.  Of course, Chinese being what it
is, it's hard to tell whether we should call these compounding elements or
prefixes in this particular case.





Messages in this topic (31)
________
2.2. Re: Word classes

[conlang] Digest Number 8794

[conlang]

There are 3 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: OT: Re: SET CONLANG MAIL
From: Padraic Brown

2.1. Re: Word classes not based upon gender or animacy
From: Padraic Brown
2.2. Re: Word classes not based upon gender or animacy
From: neo gu


Messages

1a. Re: OT: Re: SET CONLANG MAIL
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" elemti...@yahoo.com 
Date: Fri Sep 21, 2012 4:41 pm ((PDT))

--- On Thu, 9/20/12, Sam Stutter  wrote:

> > What ìs this old world coming to, always Ending and
> everything. Very untidy!
> 
> I know! I tried praying up technical support to lodge a
> formal complaint, but all I got was a minor angel who told
> me to try resetting the sun by poking a needle into the back
> of it :-/

Ah, yes, the old "poke the 'reset' button" trick. Nothing new there! -- 
just look at an image of the so-called "Nebra sky disk". It's just an
old instruction tag telling one how to reset the cosmos when it goes all
wonky. Anyway, it makes the tech support angels look like they know what 
their doing, and gives the poor sod who's been on hold for an age and a 
half some hope

Next time some tech support angel feeds you that line about resetting the 
sun, you tell her you want to talk to her manager! After all, when the
Eschaton is fast approaching, you don't have a lot of time to mess about!
If she balks, just press "3" to get right to the top! Works every time! ;)

Padraic






Messages in this topic (6)


2.1. Re: Word classes not based upon gender or animacy
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" elemti...@yahoo.com 
Date: Fri Sep 21, 2012 5:46 pm ((PDT))

On Sep 20, 2012, at 8:41 PM, Alex Fink wrote:
 
> Fewer conlangers seem to just decide that, okay, if you
> really need to specify a male or a female deer, just modify
> "deer" with the independent words "male" or "female" (or at
> least fewer _say_ they've done this).  

This is exactly how you do it in Avantimannish! At least for some animal
words (and even some people words).

Stahhe herots = male deer. Although "stag" has come to mean "male deer"
in English, in primitive Thietish its meaning was more like "male animal" 
and has come to be used an adjective meaning "male". "Deer" has come to 
mean, well, "deer" in English, but duez just means wild animal in 
Avantimannish. Likewise with the female: beiqe herots = female deer. 
Herots is just "inspecific deer". Though honestly, this is a term one 
would only rarely come across in real life. It's not like life is so 
modern and so divorced from the natural order of things that the majority 
of people are unaware of the clear differences between a stahhe and a 
beiqe herote! It would be like not knowing the difference between a
Kindle Fire and an Apple Ipad. Hellooo!

Off hand, deer, bear, beaver, chickens (and other domestic & wild fowls),
oliphants, rhinoceroses, behemoths, camels, giraffes, dogs, voxes, wolves, 
octupodes, pigs, primitive humans and various barbarians are 
distinguished as above. Though fowls, octupodes, goats and pigs have
different male / female words. Other wild and domestic animals, bovines &
goats in particular, have different root words for the male and female; 
obviously so do non-primitive, non-barbarian humans.

Birds and octupodes are guwhhe and hhene; pigs (and Werepigs) are he-pyggaz
and ho-pyggaz for male & female. Geitô = female goat; buhhaz = male goat; 
suwhhs = female boar; bêraz = male boar. Bellaz and quwô are bull & cow
respectively; uwhraz & gouwez are the wild cattle (aurochs); wisand & 
herntez are bisons.

> It's as though
> people look at the IE pattern with masculine and feminine
> affixes, and want to reject it, 

This is understandable -- most of us speak some IE language or other and
perhaps we feel that IE isn't "exotic" enough, so feel compelled to
do whatever IE doesn't do. Myeh. Whatever floats your boat! Mind you, when
I look at the IE grammar articles in the Font of All Knowledge, *I* see a
pretty exotic language in there! (But then, I also think English is
pretty exotic, in its own way...)

> but somehow the alternative
> analytic strategy doesn't occur to them so they have to
> leave the affixes in as a dispreferred strategy. 

Perhaps that "more analytic" strategy strikes many conlangers as too
sterile. Or too implausible. I would never consciously choose to 
distinguish *every* male / female pair with, well, "male" and "female" 
attached to the noun!

Padraic






Messages in thi

[conlang] Digest Number 8795

[conlang]

There are 11 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Auxlang/artlang hybrids?
From: Jörg Rhiemeier
1b. Re: Auxlang/artlang hybrids?
From: John Erickson
1c. Re: Auxlang/artlang hybrids?
From: Padraic Brown
1d. Conlangs for gaming purposes (was: Auxlang/artlang hybrids?)
From: Jörg Rhiemeier

2. JBR does a phonemic substitution cipher
From: Alex Fink

3a. Natlang-auxlang hybrids
From: John H. Chalmers
3b. Re: Natlang-auxlang hybrids
From: Gary Shannon

4a. Re: OT: Conlang borthdays (was Re: Jameld is 30)
From: Wesley Parish
4b. Re: OT: Conlang borthdays (was Re: Jameld is 30)
From: Jim Henry
4c. Re: OT: Conlang birthdays (was Re: Jameld is 30)
From: Roger Mills
4d. Re: OT: Conlang birthdays (was Re: Jameld is 30)
From: p...@phillipdriscoll.com


Messages

1a. Auxlang/artlang hybrids?
Posted by: "Jörg Rhiemeier" joerg_rhieme...@web.de 
Date: Sun Sep 23, 2012 12:41 pm ((PDT))

Hallo conlangers!

There are several intermediates between artlangs and engelangs
(e.g., Liva by Claudio Gnoli or gjâ-zym-byn by Jim Henry), and
also between engelangs and auxlangs (e.g., Lojban, or the 17th-
century "philosophical" languages); but intermediates between
auxlangs and artlangs appear to be rare.  One I can think of
is Tarna, which occurs as a fictional human Ursprache in an
obscure psychedelic SF novel, _Weltgeist Superstar_ by Swiss
author P. M., which the author also suggests using it as an
international auxiliary language.  Which other such languages
exist?

--
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
"Bêsel asa Éam, a Éam atha cvanthal a cvanth atha Éamal." - SiM 1:1





Messages in this topic (4)

1b. Re: Auxlang/artlang hybrids?
Posted by: "John Erickson" john.erickson.so...@gmail.com 
Date: Sun Sep 23, 2012 4:31 pm ((PDT))

Something I had/have in mind that I want to do, and/or wish someone else would 
do (I originally wanted to do it with FairyLang, but that's gone in a different 
direction) is to make an artlang/auxlang that rather than being an 
international auxiliary language, would be a fantasy fan auxiliary language. 
i.e. A sword-and-sorcery fantasy language that fans of the genre could use 
amongst themselves, when LARPing, playing table-top RPGs, etc.

It would probably look and sound very Tolkien-esque, but with a fairly simple, 
very regular grammar, and a big enough vocabulary for conversational and 
story-telling use. And it would have to have words for all the sorts of 
monsters and other concepts found in the genre, not just for any one specific 
setting.

There's Grelvish, but I don't know how good a conlang that is, or how well it 
caught on.





Messages in this topic (4)

1c. Re: Auxlang/artlang hybrids?
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" elemti...@yahoo.com 
Date: Sun Sep 23, 2012 6:05 pm ((PDT))

--- On Sun, 9/23/12, John Erickson  wrote:

> Something I had/have in mind that I
> want to do, and/or wish someone else would do (I originally
> wanted to do it with FairyLang, but that's gone in a
> different direction) is to make an artlang/auxlang that
> rather than being an international auxiliary language, would
> be a fantasy fan auxiliary language. i.e. A
> sword-and-sorcery fantasy language that fans of the genre
> could use amongst themselves, when LARPing, playing
> table-top RPGs, etc.

I can't name any names, but I am certain that such languages have been
done and even discussed here at Conlang. I think the one I am remembering
was devised by some European gamers.

It looks like larping conlangery has been discussed last year and back
in 2005ish or so.

None of these discussions seem to shed any light on the example I was
thinking of...

> It would probably look and sound very Tolkien-esque, but
> with a fairly simple, very regular grammar, and a big enough
> vocabulary for conversational and story-telling use. And it
> would have to have words for all the sorts of monsters and
> other concepts found in the genre, not just for any one
> specific setting.
> 
> There's Grelvish, but I don't know how good a conlang that
> is, or how well it caught on.

Padraic





Messages in this topic (4)

1d. Conlangs for gaming purposes (was: Auxlang/artlang hybrids?)
Posted by: "Jörg Rhiemeier" joerg_rhieme...@web.de 
Date: Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:10 am ((PDT))

Hallo conlangers!

On Monday 24 September 2012 01:31:13 John Erickson wrote:

> Something I had/have in mind that I want to do, and/or wish som

[conlang] Digest Number 8796

[conlang]

There are 15 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: OT: Conlang birthdays (was Re: Jameld is 30)
From: Roger Mills
1b. Re: OT: Conlang birthdays (was Re: Jameld is 30)
From: Daniel Burgener

2a. Re: Natlang-auxlang hybrids
From: Larry Sulky

3a. META: Constructed sign language.
From: Leonardo Castro
3b. Re: META: Constructed sign language.
From: Adam Walker

4a. OT: NYC-Based Conlang Groups?
From: Zach Wellstood
4b. Re: OT: NYC-Based Conlang Groups?
From: David Peterson
4c. Re: OT: NYC-Based Conlang Groups?
From: Sai
4d. Re: OT: NYC-Based Conlang Groups?
From: Zach Wellstood
4e. Re: OT: NYC-Based Conlang Groups?
From: Zach Wellstood
4f. Re: OT: NYC-Based Conlang Groups?
From: David Peterson
4g. Re: OT: NYC-Based Conlang Groups?
From: Sai
4h. Re: OT: NYC-Based Conlang Groups?
From: Zach Wellstood
4i. Re: OT: NYC-Based Conlang Groups?
From: Zach Wellstood
4j. Re: OT: NYC-Based Conlang Groups?
From: Sai


Messages

1a. Re: OT: Conlang birthdays (was Re: Jameld is 30)
Posted by: "Roger Mills" romi...@yahoo.com 
Date: Mon Sep 24, 2012 10:48 am ((PDT))

--- On Mon, 9/24/12, p...@phillipdriscoll.com  wrote:
I attended Michigan Technological University in the mid-1970s. They
were still using a quarter system. Fall Quarter was Sept., Oct., and
Nov., ending at Thanksgiving break. Winter Quarter was Dec., Jan., and
Feb.  Spring Quarter was March, April, and May.

--Ph. D.


That sounds about right; classes would have been winding down toward the end of 
May, prior to exams; I know I had a lot of free time then, and certainly during 
June/July. (I just checked the website of my former employer-school  and they 
seem to have changed to a semester system.). ¿Quién sabe? Anyhow, I shall 
celebrate the month of June as Kash's birth _month_. ---Even though it really 
didn't take off until 1999 when I bought my first computerBut it had a 23 
year gestation period :-

Roger Mills  wrote:
> (if y'all don't mind, I've corrected the spelling of "birthdays")
>
> I certainly can't name a specific day for Kash and Gwr, but maybe a month---
>
> Those of you who work at/attend US colleges on the quarter system,
> what is the typical schedule (I don't remember). I do recall that
> fall quarter ended at Christmas Vacation, and Winter Q. ran from Jan.
> to March, but what about Spring quarter? April - June?  I'm sure it
> was prior to June (1976) that I discovered those languages and
> invented Planet Cindu, and worked on them until end of July, when the
> lease on my house expired and I packed up and fled the town.
>
> So it could be late-ish May or else June 1976. (I'm not in the habit
> of dating the scribblings in notebooks)
>
>





Messages in this topic (17)

1b. Re: OT: Conlang birthdays (was Re: Jameld is 30)
Posted by: "Daniel Burgener" burgener.dan...@gmail.com 
Date: Mon Sep 24, 2012 10:58 am ((PDT))

On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 at 1:48 PM, Roger Mills  wrote:

> --- On Mon, 9/24/12, p...@phillipdriscoll.com 
> wrote:
> I attended Michigan Technological University in the mid-1970s. They
> were still using a quarter system. Fall Quarter was Sept., Oct., and
> Nov., ending at Thanksgiving break. Winter Quarter was Dec., Jan., and
> Feb.  Spring Quarter was March, April, and May.
>
> --Ph. D.
> 
>
> That sounds about right; classes would have been winding down toward the
> end of May, prior to exams; I know I had a lot of free time then, and
> certainly during June/July. (I just checked the website of my former
> employer-school  and they seem to have changed to a semester system.).
> ¿Quién sabe? Anyhow, I shall celebrate the month of June as Kash's birth
> _month_. ---Even though it really didn't take off until 1999 when I bought
> my first computerBut it had a 23 year gestation period :-
>

The general trend in US schools at the moment is towards the semester
system.  A typical schedule currently runs one semester from August through
December, and another from January through May.

I attended Northwestern University, which is still on the Quarter system,
with quarters that run late September through December, January through
March and April through June.  I think, but don't know for sure, that that
is fairly typical of current quarter system schedules.

-Daniel





Messages in this topic (17)

_

[conlang] Digest Number 8797

[conlang]

There are 12 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: OT: NYC-Based Conlang Groups?
From: George Corley
1b. Re: OT: NYC-Based Conlang Groups?
From: Sai
1c. Re: OT: NYC-Based Conlang Groups?
From: Roger Mills
1d. Re: OT: NYC-Based Conlang Groups?
From: p...@phillipdriscoll.com
1e. Re: OT: NYC-Based Conlang Groups?
From: Roger Mills
1f. Re: OT: NYC-Based Conlang Groups?
From: Roger Mills
1g. Re: OT: NYC-Based Conlang Groups?
From: George Corley
1h. Re: OT: NYC-Based Conlang Groups?
From: Zach Wellstood
1i. Re: OT: NYC-Based Conlang Groups?
From: Patrick Dunn

2a. Fwd: Conlangers Documentary.
From: Eugene Oh
2b. Re: Fwd: Conlangers Documentary.
From: Roger Mills
2c. Re: Conlangers Documentary.
From: Sam Stutter


Messages

1a. Re: OT: NYC-Based Conlang Groups?
Posted by: "George Corley" gacor...@gmail.com 
Date: Mon Sep 24, 2012 10:10 pm ((PDT))

On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 at 11:52 PM, Sai  wrote:

>
> Again, IME: you just bring it up. "So, what do you think of conlangs?"
>
> Same for proposing a talk. Just propose it.
>
> I should note that to me your trepidation is very reminiscent of
> conversations with closeted queer people wondering how to raise the
> fact that they're gay/trans/etc, and has the same solution. Don't be
> ashamed of what you enjoy, come out, just actively ask people, and
> advertise it passively in tasteful ways (wearing bright rainbow socks,
> for instance, makes it pretty obvious clue that I'm queer; wearing an
> LCC shirt does the same for conlanging; etc).
>

For the record, bright rainbow socks would not be an obvious clue to ME
that you are queer -- at least, it wouldn't have been in the past.  Such
things would have sailed right over my head a few years ago, and even now I
am so averse to making assumptions about people that I might actively avoid
speculating on such signals.

Be visible and people come to you. Be invisible and nobody knows that
> they would want to.


Yes, but there are times to be careful.  Right now I won't name names, but
I have a feeling that one particular linguistics professor at my graduate
school would be quite dismissive of and possibly hostile toward conlangers.





Messages in this topic (19)
____
1b. Re: OT: NYC-Based Conlang Groups?
Posted by: "Sai" s...@saizai.com 
Date: Mon Sep 24, 2012 10:22 pm ((PDT))

On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 at 10:10 PM, George Corley  wrote:
> For the record, bright rainbow socks would not be an obvious clue to ME
> that you are queer -- at least, it wouldn't have been in the past.

It's not a 100% clue nowadays either, but it'd be at least
queer-supportive, which is generally within one social hop of an
actual queer person. :-P

> Yes, but there are times to be careful.  Right now I won't name names, but
> I have a feeling that one particular linguistics professor at my graduate
> school would be quite dismissive of and possibly hostile toward conlangers.

*nod* That's rather unfortunate. But hopefully dismissive of
conlang*ing* doesn't mean dismissive of conlang*ers*. There are plenty
of our brethren who are respected academic linguists in their own
right, and are just viewed as having a peculiar hobby. ;-)

- Sai





Messages in this topic (19)

1c. Re: OT: NYC-Based Conlang Groups?
Posted by: "Roger Mills" romi...@yahoo.com 
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2012 7:23 am ((PDT))

--- On Tue, 9/25/12, George Corley  wrote:
On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 at 11:52 PM, Sai  wrote:
>
> Again, IME: you just bring it up. "So, what do you think of conlangs?"
>
> Same for proposing a talk. Just propose it.
>
(snip)

Yes, but there are times to be careful.  Right now I won't name names, but
I have a feeling that one particular linguistics professor at my graduate
school would be quite dismissive of and possibly hostile toward conlangers.


A slight suggestion: Next time you have to write a data-oriented paper, use 
your (or someone else's conlang); don't mark it by name, just call it 
"invented" or "hypothetical" data. Might get some discussion started.

Does the dept. hold "brown bag lunches" where people make presentations of 
various stuff? You might suggest that they devote one to invented languages. 
You could start with Esperanto, then branch off into Tolkien and modern 
conlangs, and mention that there are HUNDREDS if not thousands of people all 
over the world who are indulging in the "secret vice".  We did one o

[conlang] Digest Number 8798

[conlang]

There are 15 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Old Albic update: Finite verbs
From: Jörg Rhiemeier
1b. Re: Old Albic update: Finite verbs
From: Adam Walker

2.1. Re: OT: NYC-Based Conlang Groups?
From: George Corley
2.2. Re: OT: NYC-Based Conlang Groups?
From: Patrick Dunn
2.3. Re: OT: NYC-Based Conlang Groups?
From: Zach Wellstood
2.4. Re: OT: NYC-Based Conlang Groups?
From: Patrick Dunn
2.5. Re: OT: NYC-Based Conlang Groups?
From: George Corley
2.6. Re: OT: NYC-Based Conlang Groups?
From: Adam Walker
2.7. Re: OT: NYC-Based Conlang Groups?
From: George Corley
2.8. Re: OT: NYC-Based Conlang Groups?
From: Patrick Dunn
2.9. Re: OT: NYC-Based Conlang Groups?
From: Patrick Dunn
2.10. Re: OT: NYC-Based Conlang Groups?
From: Adam Walker
2.11. Re: OT: NYC-Based Conlang Groups?
From: Sai
2.12. Re: OT: NYC-Based Conlang Groups?
From: Charles W Brickner

3. (no subject)
From: j_mach_wust j_mach_wust


Messages

1a. Old Albic update: Finite verbs
Posted by: "Jörg Rhiemeier" joerg_rhieme...@web.de 
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:58 pm ((PDT))

Hallo conlangers!

For quite a long time, I had difficulties with Old Albic finite
verbs, which just refused to behave the way I wanted them to.

The problem was with such forms as _dirochama_ 'I will love you',
which, according to the normal accent rule, had to be accented
on the second syllable (because the penultimate syllable is light).
That, however, rubbed me as wrong; I felt that the main accent
"ought to" fall on the first syllable, which would normally be
impossible in a four-syllable word, and a weaker secondary accent
on the penultimate syllable.

Secondly, the personal endings themselves were a problem, namely
their shape.  In Old Albic, syllabic suffixes with one consonant
are of the form -VC, according to the vowel positioning rules of
the language.  But the personal endings are -CV!  How can that be?

Now I have found out what is going on here!  The personal endings
are not proper suffixes, but *enclitics*.  The finite verb consists
of *two* domains which in some respects behave like separate words.
The first domain is everything up to including the tense/mood
marker; the second domain consists of the personal endings and, if
present, the version suffix.  So _dirochama_ is divided thus:
_diro=chama_.  Applying the normal accent rules *separately* to
the two domains yield a main accent on the first syllable, and a
secondary one on the third.

Why, however, should the personal endings behave differently than
the tense/mood suffixes, which are "well-behaved" suffixes?  The
key is that they are less strongly tied to the verb stem, as they
do not, like the tense/mood suffix, encode properties of the
action/event/state expressed by the verb itself, but properties
of its *arguments*.  They are essentially just *pronouns* which
have entered a symbiotic relationship with the verb, but not
really have become a true part of the verb itself.

--
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
"Bêsel asa Éam, a Éam atha cvanthal a cvanth atha Éamal." - SiM 1:1





Messages in this topic (2)

1b. Re: Old Albic update: Finite verbs
Posted by: "Adam Walker" carra...@gmail.com 
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2012 2:21 pm ((PDT))

Interesting rationale.

Adam

On Tue, Sep 25, 2012 at 2:58 PM, Jörg Rhiemeier wrote:

> Hallo conlangers!
>
> For quite a long time, I had difficulties with Old Albic finite
> verbs, which just refused to behave the way I wanted them to.
>
> The problem was with such forms as _dirochama_ 'I will love you',
> which, according to the normal accent rule, had to be accented
> on the second syllable (because the penultimate syllable is light).
> That, however, rubbed me as wrong; I felt that the main accent
> "ought to" fall on the first syllable, which would normally be
> impossible in a four-syllable word, and a weaker secondary accent
> on the penultimate syllable.
>
> Secondly, the personal endings themselves were a problem, namely
> their shape.  In Old Albic, syllabic suffixes with one consonant
> are of the form -VC, according to the vowel positioning rules of
> the language.  But the personal endings are -CV!  How can that be?
>
> Now I have found out what is going on here!  The personal endings
> are not proper suffixes, but *enclitics*.  The finite verb consists
> of *two* domains which in some respects behave like separate words.
> The first domain is everything up to including the tense/mood
> marker; the second domain consists of the personal endings and, if
> present, the version

[conlang] Digest Number 8799

[conlang]

There are 15 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1.1. The Joys and Horrors of the Character Dictionary (was : RE: OT: NYC-
From: Douglas Koller
1.2. Re: The Joys and Horrors of the Character Dictionary (was : RE: OT: 
From: Charles W Brickner

2a. (no subject)
From: taliesin the storyteller

3.1. Re: OT: NYC-Based Conlang Groups?
From: Allison Swenson
3.2. Re: OT: NYC-Based Conlang Groups?
From: Zach Wellstood
3.3. Re: OT: NYC-Based Conlang Groups?
From: Patrick Dunn
3.4. Re: OT: NYC-Based Conlang Groups?
From: And Rosta
3.5. Re: OT: NYC-Based Conlang Groups?
From: Patrick Dunn
3.6. Re: OT: NYC-Based Conlang Groups?
From: Zach Wellstood
3.7. Re: OT: NYC-Based Conlang Groups?
From: Josh Roth
3.8. Re: OT: NYC-Based Conlang Groups?
From: Zach Wellstood

4. Kickstarter: record rare alphabets
From: taliesin the storyteller

5a. USAGE: Need French terms for raising/falling diphthong
From: BPJ
5b. Re: USAGE: Need French terms for raising/falling diphthong
From: MorphemeAddict
5c. Re: USAGE: Need French terms for raising/falling diphthong
From: R A Brown


Messages

1.1. The Joys and Horrors of the Character Dictionary (was : RE: OT: NYC-
Posted by: "Douglas Koller" douglaskol...@hotmail.com 
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2012 9:02 pm ((PDT))

> Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 22:06:59 -0400
> From: tepeyach...@embarqmail.com
> Subject: Re: OT: NYC-Based Conlang Groups?
> To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
 
> > From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:conl...@listserv.brown.edu] On
> Behalf Of Adam Walker
 
> > Yes, stroke count is one of the other ways dictionaries *can* be
> organized.  I have one from Singapore that is done that way.  
 
> I have one of Japanese organized by stroke count.
> Charlie
Just straight stroke order without radical or some other sub-organizing 
back-up? I'm having a hard time wrapping my noodle around that one. Even if you 
stick to just toyo/joyo kanji, it must take *ages* to find what you want ("I 
have a kanji with 10 strokes, so I'm going to look at a randomly assembled list 
of all 10-stroke kanji" (?!) And if you're doing that for the entire repertoire 
of all available characters, w! That's utterly insane, if, indeed, 
that's what you're describing.
I teethed on the radical method back in the day, and while *that* was described 
as insane earlier in the thread, there was, at least, a method to the madness. 
And while occasionally frustrating if a character had more than one possible 
radical in it and your neophyte skills didn't tell *which* one would get you 
where you wanted to go, it reinforced knowledge of where to find that character 
next time, helped your radical-seeking powers to congeal, and often, took you 
on a very interesting if circuitous trip through the dictionary until you 
reached your final destination (How often have many of us stumbled upon an 
obscure character for "Tang Dynasty jade hairpin" this way?).
These days, I have enough characters under my belt that going to the dictionary 
is more about looking up a *word* I don't know than a character I don't know, 
so it's usually pinyin or bopomofo as first choice. Even if it's a character I 
don't know, I usually take a stab at a pronunciation first, then relent to 
radicals if that doesn't pan out. And sometimes, you just go to the radical 
first 'cause you have to -- just the other day I came upon 蠡 on a sign. 
Not...a...clue. So off to the "bug" radical. (For those of you just dying to 
know, it's read "li2/li3"). Let's face it, trying to be an old China hand is 
tough slogging. You have to know pinyin. You have to know Wade-Giles. You have 
to know Yale. You really should know Bopomofo. Traditional *and* simplified 
characters in a variety of fonts and calligraphic styles. If you expand to 
Japan and Korea, the kana and hangul thingies and *other* variants of 
simplified characters, kunyomi/onyomi, goon/kanon. My Hakka dictionar
 ies were compiled by French Jesuits, so yet another schema. Books written 
after the failed second wave of simplification? Phew and oy! With all that 
going on, I've simply had to draw my sinophilic line in the sand in some 
places. I was introduced to the four-corners method way back when by a native 
speaker who had definitely drunk the four-corners kool-aid. I'm sorry, but I 
simply refuse. You can count on one hand the times I've run into it over thirty 
years, and even then only as an *additional* strategy in a dictionary. 
Foggeddaboudit. So, too, with Gwoyeu Romatzyh. No, no, and thrice, no. My 
knowledge of Chinese may be forever irreparably incomplete without it, but I'll 
just have to c

[conlang] Digest Number 8800

[conlang]

There are 6 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: USAGE: Need French terms for raising/falling diphthong
From: taliesin the storyteller
1b. Re: USAGE: Need French terms for raising/falling diphthong
From: R A Brown
1c. Re: USAGE: Need French terms for raising/falling diphthong
From: BPJ
1d. Re: USAGE: Need French terms for raising/falling diphthong
From: Mike S.

2.1. Re: OT: NYC-Based Conlang Groups?
From: Padraic Brown
2.2. Re: OT: NYC-Based Conlang Groups?
From: Zach Wellstood


Messages

1a. Re: USAGE: Need French terms for raising/falling diphthong
Posted by: "taliesin the storyteller" taliesin-conl...@nvg.org 
Date: Thu Sep 27, 2012 3:59 am ((PDT))

On 2012-09-27 10:37, R A Brown wrote:
> On 27/09/2012 08:46, BPJ wrote:
>> I need the French terms for 'raising diphthong' and
>> 'falling diphthong' but haven't been able to find them.
>> I'm sure the answer is obvious, but I'm stuck...
>
> Cf.:
> http://www.sil.org/linguistics/glossary_fe/glossary.asp?entryid=2696&lang=fr

Ha, the glossary in English doesn't list falling diphthong at all,

http://www.sil.org/linguistics/GlossaryOfLinguisticTerms/WhatIsADiphthong.htm

and the glossary itself is a lot less fancy than the French<->English one.


t.





Messages in this topic (7)

1b. Re: USAGE: Need French terms for raising/falling diphthong
Posted by: "R A Brown" r...@carolandray.plus.com 
Date: Thu Sep 27, 2012 4:09 am ((PDT))

On 27/09/2012 11:59, taliesin the storyteller wrote:
> On 2012-09-27 10:37, R A Brown wrote:
>> On 27/09/2012 08:46, BPJ wrote:
>>> I need the French terms for 'raising diphthong' and
>>> 'falling diphthong' but haven't been able to find
>>> them. I'm sure the answer is obvious, but I'm
>>> stuck...
>>
>> Cf.:
>> http://www.sil.org/linguistics/glossary_fe/glossary.asp?entryid=2696&lang=fr
>>
>
> Ha, the glossary in English doesn't list falling
> diphthong at all,

It does when I view it with Chrome - "angdescending 
diphthong, diminuendo diphthong, falling diphthong"

> http://www.sil.org/linguistics/GlossaryOfLinguisticTerms/WhatIsADiphthong.htm
>
> and the glossary itself is a lot less fancy than the
> French<->English one.

Ah - that was a mistake. The URL should have been:
http://www.sil.org/linguistics/glossary_fe/glossary.asp?entryid=2692

-- 
Ray
==
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==
Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
There's none too old to learn.
[WELSH PROVERB]





Messages in this topic (7)

1c. Re: USAGE: Need French terms for raising/falling diphthong
Posted by: "BPJ" b...@melroch.se 
Date: Thu Sep 27, 2012 5:30 am ((PDT))

On 2012-09-27 13:09, R A Brown wrote:
> On 27/09/2012 11:59, taliesin the storyteller wrote:
>> On 2012-09-27 10:37, R A Brown wrote:
>>> On 27/09/2012 08:46, BPJ wrote:
>>>> I need the French terms for 'raising diphthong' and
>>>> 'falling diphthong' but haven't been able to find
>>>> them. I'm sure the answer is obvious, but I'm
>>>> stuck...
>>>
>>> Cf.:
>>> http://www.sil.org/linguistics/glossary_fe/glossary.asp?entryid=2696&lang=fr
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Ha, the glossary in English doesn't list falling
>> diphthong at all,
>
> It does when I view it with Chrome - "angdescending diphthong,
> diminuendo diphthong, falling diphthong"
>
>> http://www.sil.org/linguistics/GlossaryOfLinguisticTerms/WhatIsADiphthong.htm
>>
>>
>> and the glossary itself is a lot less fancy than the
>> French<->English one.
>
> Ah - that was a mistake. The URL should have been:
> http://www.sil.org/linguistics/glossary_fe/glossary.asp?entryid=2692
>

Thanks a lot!  I didn't know about that glossary.

d. ascendante has 12000+ googlehits againtst 8000+ for
d.croissante.  A pity; I like d. croissante...

/bpj





Messages in this topic (7)

1d. Re: USAGE: Need French terms for raising/falling diphthong
Posted by: "Mike S." maik...@gmail.com 
Date: Thu Sep 27, 2012 8:43 am ((PDT))

On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 3:46 AM, BPJ  wrote:

> I need the French terms for 'raising diphthong' and
> 'falling diphthong' but haven't been able to find them.
&

[conlang] Digest Number 8801

[conlang]

There are 15 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: USAGE: Need French terms for raising/falling diphthong
From: MorphemeAddict
1b. Re: USAGE: Need French terms for raising/falling diphthong
From: BPJ
1c. Re: USAGE: Need French terms for raising/falling diphthong
From: MorphemeAddict
1d. Re: USAGE: Need French terms for raising/falling diphthong
From: R A Brown

2.1. Re: OT: NYC-Based Conlang Groups?
From: MorphemeAddict
2.2. Re: OT: NYC-Based Conlang Groups?
From: Padraic Brown
2.3. Re: OT: NYC-Based Conlang Groups?
From: Patrick Dunn
2.4. Re: OT: NYC-Based Conlang Groups?
From: Douglas Koller
2.5. Re: OT: NYC-Based Conlang Groups?
From: Jim Henry
2.6. Re: OT: NYC-Based Conlang Groups?
From: Zach Wellstood
2.7. Re: OT: NYC-Based Conlang Groups?
From: psykieki...@gmail.com

3a. Crossword Puzzles in Conlangs
From: Sylvia Sotomayor
3b. Re: Crossword Puzzles in Conlangs
From: Jim Henry
3c. Re: Crossword Puzzles in Conlangs
From: Jim Henry
3d. Re: Crossword Puzzles in Conlangs
From: R A Brown


Messages

1a. Re: USAGE: Need French terms for raising/falling diphthong
Posted by: "MorphemeAddict" lytl...@gmail.com 
Date: Thu Sep 27, 2012 10:51 am ((PDT))

On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 11:43 AM, Mike S.  wrote:

> On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 3:46 AM, BPJ  wrote:
>
> > I need the French terms for 'raising diphthong' and
> > 'falling diphthong' but haven't been able to find them.
> > I'm sure the answer is obvious, but I'm stuck...
> >
> > /bpj
> >
>
> I was going to suggest looking up "diphthong" at Wikipedia under the
> language of choice, and from there, bring up the French article.
>

Yes, this is what I did first, too. As you say, it didn't work this time.

stevo


> Increasingly, as Wikipedia continues to get filled in, that tactic can
> sometimes quickly get you all the terminology you need on any given topic
> in any given language.  Unfortunately in this particular French article,
> falling and rising diphthongs aren't mentioned.  (Not sure why -- either
> maybe French linguists don't emphasize the distinction, or maybe by chance
> French-speaking WP editors merely haven't bothered to add it yet to the
> article?)
>
> --
> co ma'a mke
>
> Xorban blog: Xorban.wordpress.com <http://xorban.wordpress.com/>
> My LL blog: Loglang.wordpress.com <http://loglang.wordpress.com/>
>





Messages in this topic (11)

1b. Re: USAGE: Need French terms for raising/falling diphthong
Posted by: "BPJ" b...@melroch.se 
Date: Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:53 pm ((PDT))

On 2012-09-27 19:51, MorphemeAddict wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 11:43 AM, Mike S.  wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 3:46 AM, BPJ  wrote:
>>
>>> I need the French terms for 'raising diphthong' and
>>> 'falling diphthong' but haven't been able to find them.
>>> I'm sure the answer is obvious, but I'm stuck...
>>>
>>> /bpj
>>>
>>
>> I was going to suggest looking up "diphthong" at Wikipedia under the
>> language of choice, and from there, bring up the French article.
>>
>
> Yes, this is what I did first, too. As you say, it didn't work this time.
>
> stevo

So did I.  The failure of the method here may be because there
are no falling diphthongs in modern French.

BTW I found that _diftong (de)creixent_ is the current term
in Catalan.

<http://books.google.com/books?id=H307mIiILdUC&pg=PA66>

/bpj

>
>
>> Increasingly, as Wikipedia continues to get filled in, that tactic can
>> sometimes quickly get you all the terminology you need on any given topic
>> in any given language.  Unfortunately in this particular French article,
>> falling and rising diphthongs aren't mentioned.  (Not sure why -- either
>> maybe French linguists don't emphasize the distinction, or maybe by chance
>> French-speaking WP editors merely haven't bothered to add it yet to the
>> article?)
>>
>> --
>> co ma'a mke
>>
>> Xorban blog: Xorban.wordpress.com <http://xorban.wordpress.com/>
>> My LL blog: Loglang.wordpress.com <http://loglang.wordpress.com/>
>>
>





Messages in this topic (11)

1c. Re: USAGE: Need French terms for raising/falling diphthong
Posted by: "MorphemeAddict" lytl...@gmail.com 
Date: Thu Sep 27, 2012 2:59 pm ((PDT))

On 

[conlang] Digest Number 8802

[conlang]

There are 7 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Crossword Puzzles in Conlangs
From: Douglas Koller
1b. Re: Crossword Puzzles in Conlangs
From: Fredrik Ekman
1c. Re: Crossword Puzzles in Conlangs
From: Fredrik Ekman
1d. Re: Crossword Puzzles in Conlangs
From: Roger Mills
1e. Re: Crossword Puzzles in Conlangs
From: Zach Wellstood

2a. Re: USAGE: Need French terms for raising/falling diphthong
From: Roger Mills
2b. Re: USAGE: Need French terms for raising/falling diphthong
From: Roman Rausch


Messages

1a. Re: Crossword Puzzles in Conlangs
Posted by: "Douglas Koller" douglaskol...@hotmail.com 
Date: Fri Sep 28, 2012 4:09 am ((PDT))

> Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 08:38:46 +0100
> From: r...@carolandray.plus.com
> Subject: Re: Crossword Puzzles in Conlangs
> To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
 
> On 28/09/2012 05:01, Jim Henry wrote:
> > On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 11:21 PM, Sylvia Sotomayor
> >  wrote:
> >> I was asked a question this evening in email: "I'm
> >> also a huge crossword fan. Do you know if there's a
> >> crossword puzzle composed in any invented language?"

> Surely some magazines and/or periodicals published in
> Volapük, Ido, Interlingua and Glosa will have contained
> (still do contain) crosswords.  Also did not the Novialiste
> during its brief period of publication (1934 - 1939) ever
> contain crosswords?

> A more interesting question IMO is whether there are any
> crosswords composed in a non-auxlang conlang.

I've always imagined that on Géarthtörs, they have their equivalent of the US 
TV gameshow, "Password" (Betty White and Carol Burnett in Géarthnuns, what a 
trip!) or the French gameshow "Pyramide" which is a blend of US "Password" and 
"$20,000 Pyramid". I should think you'd need a pretty hefty repository of 
synonyms to play, though, and we're just not there yet.

Less taxing would be be the game "Lingo" which is about playing with and 
rearranging letters to make 5-letter words. Both the Americans and the French 
Canadians have versions of that, and I think Géarthtörs could handle it without 
breaking a sweat.

Since Géarthnuns is alphabetic, a crossword should not be a problem, but I 
found out, last year I think, just how many different formats there are. I knew 
from taking a stab or two at the ones in back of French mags that you didn't 
play the same as you would in the States. Then it seemed the Brits have another 
format and, I don't remember who, the Dutch?, another format still. Rules about 
where and how much actual crossing takes place, where the numbers go, etc. In 
the US, apparently two-letter words are verboten (though the creator of the 
Sunday puzzle for the Fitchburg MA "Sentinel & Enterprise" seems not to have 
gotten that memo, blithely putting in elements from the periodical table and 
obscure abbreviations, to say nothing of 'parts' of words: "Atomic 79" "C'mon. 
Really?"). *So* much to be anal retentive about. As I'm most likely the only 
one *here* to reach any state of proficiency in Géarthnuns to tackle the Sunday 
puzzle of whatever the Gdhírs paper of record is to be called, it would kind of 
be like playing chess by yourself. It's not completely out of the realm of 
possibility that I would create such a beastie, but when you have to coin 
vocabulary for all the nuances of sericulture, space travel, auto repair, and 
soccer, a crossword puzzle kind of pales in comparison.

Kou   




Messages in this topic (9)
____
1b. Re: Crossword Puzzles in Conlangs
Posted by: "Fredrik Ekman" ek...@lysator.liu.se 
Date: Fri Sep 28, 2012 4:19 am ((PDT))

> So, does anyone here know of any such thing?

Depending upon your definitions of "conlang", but I once created a
crossword in Edgar Rice Burroughs' Barsoomian. The language was originally
just a bunch of names and a few other words, but has (after I made the
crossword) been fleshed out to a working conlang for the John Carter movie
this year.

The crossword can be found here:

http://www.erbzine.com/mag8/0867.html

Clues are in English, so perhaps it does not count after all?

  Fredrik





Messages in this topic (9)

1c. Re: Crossword Puzzles in Conlangs
Posted by: "Fredrik Ekman" ek...@lysator.liu.se 
Date: Fri Sep 28, 2012 4:27 am ((PDT))

Douglas Koller wrote:

> Since Géarthnuns is alphabetic, a crossword should not be a problem, but I
> found out, last year I think, just how many different formats 

[conlang] Digest Number 8803

[conlang]

There are 7 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1.1. Re: OT: NYC-Based Conlang Groups?
From: Zach Wellstood

2a. Re: USAGE: Need French terms for raising/falling diphthong
From: R A Brown
2b. Re: USAGE: Need French terms for raising/falling diphthong
From: R A Brown

3a. Re: Crossword Puzzles in Conlangs
From: Sylvia Sotomayor
3b. Re: Crossword Puzzles in Conlangs
From: Sylvia Sotomayor
3c. Re: Crossword Puzzles in Conlangs
From: Zach Wellstood
3d. Re: Crossword Puzzles in Conlangs
From: James Campbell


Messages

1.1. Re: OT: NYC-Based Conlang Groups?
Posted by: "Zach Wellstood" zwellst...@gmail.com 
Date: Fri Sep 28, 2012 10:36 am ((PDT))

On Fri, Sep 28, 2012 at 2:22 AM, psykieki...@gmail.com <
psykieki...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Aye, in my circles the term is commonly accepted as a form of
> fornication...
>
> Same.





Messages in this topic (51)


2a. Re: USAGE: Need French terms for raising/falling diphthong
Posted by: "R A Brown" r...@carolandray.plus.com 
Date: Fri Sep 28, 2012 11:53 am ((PDT))

On 28/09/2012 16:07, Roger Mills wrote:
> BPJ (I think) wrote:
>> So did I.  The failure of the method here may be
>> because there are no falling diphthongs in modern
>> French.
>>
>
>
> But how about words like _paille_ 'straw' [pEj] or
> _fauteuil_  [fot2j] (? doubt about the rounded vowel,
> could be ø or ö) 'chair, seat'--

No - one must not let oneself be mislead by the common
convention on this list of showing diphthongs where the
second element is [ɪ] or [i] as [j].

A diphthong is a vowel where the tongue moves during the
pronunciation of the vowel from a starting position towards
a final position, i.e. the vowel is not pure.

In French the vowels of _paille_ [pɑ:j] and _fauteuil_
[fotœ:j] are all _pure_; there is no glide.  The [j] in
these words is a true consonant.

> though I suppose technically they're considered to be
> resp. 2 ~ 3 syllables.

No.  _paille_ is normally monosyllabic, tho in certain
styles I guess one might have [[pɑ:jə], but _fauteuil_ is
always disyllabic.

> (My knowledge of French pronunciation  is always open to
> correction :-  )

Fair enough   ;)

-- 
Ray
==
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==
Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
There's none too old to learn.
[WELSH PROVERB]





Messages in this topic (15)

2b. Re: USAGE: Need French terms for raising/falling diphthong
Posted by: "R A Brown" r...@carolandray.plus.com 
Date: Fri Sep 28, 2012 12:10 pm ((PDT))

On 28/09/2012 19:53, R A Brown wrote:
[snip]

>
> No - one must not let oneself be mislead 

OOPSS!!! That should, of course, be _misled_ (perf. part. of
the infamous *misle)

:)

-- 
Ray
==
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==
Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
There's none too old to learn.
[WELSH PROVERB]





Messages in this topic (15)


3a. Re: Crossword Puzzles in Conlangs
Posted by: "Sylvia Sotomayor" terje...@gmail.com 
Date: Fri Sep 28, 2012 7:10 pm ((PDT))

Oh, cool. Do you have a url or other reference for those crosswords?
-S

On Fri, Sep 28, 2012 at 8:52 AM, Zach Wellstood  wrote:
> When I was learning Na'vi a couple of years ago there were tons of
> crossword puzzles people were making to help learn it.
>
> Zach
>
> On Fri, Sep 28, 2012 at 11:51 AM, Roger Mills  wrote:
>
>> I've often thought of trying to create one in Kash, but lack of synonyms
>> is a problem. Along with a friend, we managed to created one or two in
>> English but it weren't easy!! The hard part is making the grid symmetrical,
>> (which is a _rule_ for the ordinary type) then trying to find words that
>> will fill it in.
>>
>> Kou wrote:
>>
>> > Since Géarthnuns is alphabetic, a crossword should not be a problem
>>
>> Ditto Kash, except that /l/+vowel is written as a single character, so I'd
>> have to be careful..
>>
>> > but I found out, last year I think, just how many different formats
>> there are. I knew from taking a stab or two at the ones in back of French
>> mags that you didn't play the same as you would in the States. Then it
>> seemed the Brits have another forma

[conlang] Digest Number 8804

[conlang]

There are 15 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Conlang Flag Order
From: David Peterson
1b. Re: Conlang Flag Order
From: Mechthild "Maggie" Czapp
1c. Re: Conlang Flag Order
From: David Peterson
1d. Re: Conlang Flag Order
From: Dustfinger Batailleur
1e. Re: Conlang Flag Order
From: David Peterson
1f. Re: Conlang Flag Order
From: MorphemeAddict
1g. Re: Conlang Flag Order
From: David Peterson
1h. Re: Conlang Flag Order
From: Padraic Brown

2.1. Re: OT: NYC-Based Conlang Groups?
From: Padraic Brown
2.2. Re: OT: NYC-Based Conlang Groups?
From: Sam Stutter

3a. Kosher
From: Charlie Brickner
3b. Re: Kosher
From: Nikolay Ivankov
3c. Re: Kosher
From: Sam Stutter

4a. OT: Russian interlinear for absurdly story
From: Sai
4b. Re: OT: Russian interlinear for absurdly story
From: Nikolay Ivankov


Messages
____
1a. Conlang Flag Order
Posted by: "David Peterson" deda...@gmail.com 
Date: Sat Sep 29, 2012 1:45 pm ((PDT))

Hi all,

We're going to be putting in an order for conlang flags later today. If you're 
interested in getting a conlang flag, send me an e-mail offlist with your name, 
your address (the one where you want the flag shipped), and the number of flags 
you want. I'll also be confirming with those who in the past have asked to 
order conlang flags. To see if you're on the list, go here:

http://conlang.org/communities/conlang-flag/

David Peterson
LCS President
presid...@conlang.org
www.conlang.org





Messages in this topic (8)
____
1b. Re: Conlang Flag Order
Posted by: "Mechthild "Maggie" Czapp" rejista...@me.com 
Date: Sat Sep 29, 2012 2:17 pm ((PDT))

On 29/09/12 21:45, David Peterson wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> We're going to be putting in an order for conlang flags later today. If 
> you're interested in getting a conlang flag, send me an e-mail offlist with 
> your name, your address (the one where you want the flag shipped), and the 
> number of flags you want. I'll also be confirming with those who in the past 
> have asked to order conlang flags. To see if you're on the list, go here:
>
> http://conlang.org/communities/conlang-flag/
>
> David Peterson
> LCS President
> presid...@conlang.org
> www.conlang.org

Any idea as to the price?





Messages in this topic (8)

1c. Re: Conlang Flag Order
Posted by: "David Peterson" deda...@gmail.com 
Date: Sat Sep 29, 2012 2:22 pm ((PDT))

It should be about $40 US for the flag and about $12 US to ship to Germany.

David Peterson
LCS President
presid...@conlang.org
www.conlang.org

On Sep 29, 2012, at 2:17 PM, "Mechthild \"Maggie\" Czapp"  
wrote:

> On 29/09/12 21:45, David Peterson wrote:
>> Hi all,
>> 
>> We're going to be putting in an order for conlang flags later today. If 
>> you're interested in getting a conlang flag, send me an e-mail offlist with 
>> your name, your address (the one where you want the flag shipped), and the 
>> number of flags you want. I'll also be confirming with those who in the past 
>> have asked to order conlang flags. To see if you're on the list, go here:
>> 
>> http://conlang.org/communities/conlang-flag/
>> 
>> David Peterson
>> LCS President
>> presid...@conlang.org
>> www.conlang.org
> 
> Any idea as to the price?





Messages in this topic (8)

1d. Re: Conlang Flag Order
Posted by: "Dustfinger Batailleur" dustfinge...@gmail.com 
Date: Sat Sep 29, 2012 4:20 pm ((PDT))

$40 dollars is a bit much. What percent of the price goes to actually
paying for the flag vs. supporting the LCS?

On 29 September 2012 17:22, David Peterson  wrote:

> It should be about $40 US for the flag and about $12 US to ship to Germany.
>
> David Peterson
> LCS President
> presid...@conlang.org
> www.conlang.org
>
> On Sep 29, 2012, at 2:17 PM, "Mechthild \"Maggie\" Czapp" <
> rejista...@me.com> wrote:
>
> > On 29/09/12 21:45, David Peterson wrote:
> >> Hi all,
> >>
> >> We're going to be putting in an order for conlang flags later today. If
> you're interested in getting a conlang flag, send me an e-mail offlist with
> your name, your address (the one where you want the flag shipped), and the
> number of flags you want. I'll also be confirming with those who in the
> past have asked to order conlang flags. To see if you&

[conlang] Digest Number 8805

[conlang]

There are 6 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Kosher
From: Jeffrey Daniel Rollin-Jones

2a. Re: Conlang Flag Order
From: Tony Harris
2b. Re: Conlang Flag Order
From: Tony Harris
2c. Re: Conlang Flag Order
From: Padraic Brown

3.1. Re: OT: NYC-Based Conlang Groups?
From: Padraic Brown

4a. Re: OT: Russian interlinear for absurdly story
From: MorphemeAddict


Messages

1a. Re: Kosher
Posted by: "Jeffrey Daniel Rollin-Jones" jeff.rol...@gmail.com 
Date: Sun Sep 30, 2012 3:57 am ((PDT))

Most kosher food has a "hechsher", a sign specific to an authority (usually a 
religious body as opposed to a governmental one), which indicates to those in 
the know both that the product is kosher, and that it is certified by said 
body. Some of those in the States include a U or K in a circle. Here in the UK, 
boxes of Rakusen's matzo (unleavened bread) crackers are red if kosher for 
Passover (which brings in a more stringent set of kashrut restrictions), or 
blue if not, and have the text "NOT KOSHER FOR PASSOVER" if necessary.

Jeff

On 30 Sep 2012, at 10:38, Sam Stutter  wrote:

> How do they handle the signs on food packaging and on the front of take-aways 
> where it says "kosher" and/or "halal"? Surely they can't write "suitable for 
> a Jewish diet" next to the words "vegetarian", "dairy free" or "open from 5pm 
> - 2am"?
> 
> Sam Stutter
> samjj...@gmail.com
> "No e na'l cu barri"
> 
> On 30 Sep 2012, at 08:57, Nikolay Ivankov  wrote:
> 
>> On Sun, Sep 30, 2012 at 9:06 AM, Charlie Brickner <
>> caeruleancent...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> A few days ago the Travlang’s Word of the Day (w...@travlang.com) was
>>> “kosher”.  Virtually all the languages, from whatever family, used some
>>> variation of the Hebrew word, often with spelling adaptations, e.g., the
>>> French ‘kascher’.  There were a few, however, who used a circumlocution.
>>> 
>>> Icelandic: Matur höndlaður samkvœmt helgisiðum gyðinga
>>> Lithuanian: Maistas pagamintas pagal žydų tradicijas
>>> Mandarin: yóu tài hé fav shí wù
>>> 
>>> Can anyone give us the literal meaning of these expressions?
>>> 
>> 
>> For Lithuanian it is just: "Food/nutrition produced according to Jewis
>> tradition".
>> 
>> 
>>> Although the other Romance languages use some form of ‘kosher’, Spanish
>>> has opted for ‘conforme al régimen alimenticio judío’.
>>> 
>>> Charlie
>>> 





Messages in this topic (4)


2a. Re: Conlang Flag Order
Posted by: "Tony Harris" t...@alurhsa.org 
Date: Sun Sep 30, 2012 4:55 am ((PDT))

I will add that $40 is actually really cheap for a custom flag.  My Alurhsa 
flag ran me about $200, and that's only because I found a place in Canada.   
The US places wanted a good 10-25% more.  Of course this has the power of bulk 
purchase behind it, lowering the price to affordable levels.


David Peterson  wrote:

>Over here it says the dimensions are three feet by five feet, and they
>are knitted polyester:
>
>http://conlang.org/communities/conlang-flag/
>
>I've got one (it's the one that was at LCC4). Quite sturdy!
>
>David Peterson
>LCS President
>presid...@conlang.org
>www.conlang.org
>
>On Sep 29, 2012, at 5:42 PM, MorphemeAddict  wrote:
>
>> What are the dimensions of a "full-sized" flag? What is it made of?
>> 
>> stevo
>> 
>> On Sat, Sep 29, 2012 at 7:28 PM, David Peterson 
>wrote:
>> 
>>> Zero. We're not selling the conlang flag: We're organizing a group
>buy.
>>> And the whole reason we purchase them in bulk this way is so they
>can be
>>> *as* cheap as $40. If you just want to buy a conlang flag for
>yourself from
>>> the company we use (the-flag-makers.com) you can, but it'll cost
>upwards
>>> of $200 plus shipping. This is a full-sized flag, not a desk flag,
>or
>>> anything.
>>> 
>>> David Peterson
>>> LCS President
>>> presid...@conlang.org
>>> www.conlang.org
>>> 
>>> On Sep 29, 2012, at 4:20 PM, Dustfinger Batailleur
>
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> $40 dollars is a bit much. What percent of the price goes to
>actually
>>>> paying for the flag vs. supporting the LCS?
>>>> 
>>&g

[conlang] Digest Number 8806

[conlang]

There are 15 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1.1. Re: OT: NYC-Based Conlang Groups?
From: Roger Mills
1.2. Re: OT: NYC-Based Conlang Groups?
From: Garth Wallace

2a. Re: OT: Russian interlinear for absurdly story
From: Bryan Hoffman
2b. Re: OT: Russian interlinear for absurdly story
From: Sai
2c. Re: OT: Russian interlinear for absurdly story
From: Jeff Sheets
2d. Re: OT: Russian interlinear for absurdly story
From: MorphemeAddict
2e. Re: OT: Russian interlinear for absurdly story
From: Amanda Babcock Furrow
2f. Re: OT: Russian interlinear for absurdly story
From: Dustfinger Batailleur
2g. Re: OT: Russian interlinear for absurdly story
From: Nikolay Ivankov

3a. Re: Conlang Flag Order
From: Sai

4a. Oppa Klingon style
From: Garth Wallace
4b. Re: Oppa Klingon style
From: Dustfinger Batailleur
4c. Re: Oppa Klingon style
From: Nikolay Ivankov
4d. Re: Oppa Klingon style
From: Roger Mills

5. Discussions of taboo vocabulary (was: OT: Russian interlinear for ab
From: George Corley


Messages

1.1. Re: OT: NYC-Based Conlang Groups?
Posted by: "Roger Mills" romi...@yahoo.com 
Date: Sun Sep 30, 2012 10:31 am ((PDT))

--- On Sun, 9/30/12, Padraic Brown  wrote:

O/UNK words -- very interesting! I can think of:

RM: good heavens, I guess I don't get around much, or maybe it's my ageI've 
added a YES or other comments to those I've heard of, a ? to those unknown to 
me

bonk -- onom. for a "big" sound effect, like two objects striking each
other; also a v. to strike or collide with something--YES
bunk -- like bonk; also a kind of bed; also utter BS--Only the latter two.
boink -- a "small" sound effect, like a spring being plucked--only in Conlang-L 
context; I also thought it was UK slang for a sexual encounter; In your 
meaning, I have "boing"
conk -- to strike something; or a blow or hit, usually to the head (I've
never seen or used it to mean nose)-- Same here.
donk -- another sound effect word, esp. reminiscent of a cowbell; also to
strike or hit--?
doink -- similar to boink in its onom. sense--?
dunk -- like donk; also to dip your toast or sputniks in coffee/tea/cocoa;also 
to dip your oreoes in milk-- only the "dipping in beverage" meanings, cf. 
"Dunkin Donuts"(TM)
foink -- another onom. word"--?
funk -- a kind of music--yes, also "funky" as an adj., hard to define offhand 
;-)
gonk -- dial. for gunk; also appears to be a kind of plush toy--?
goink -- onom.--?
gunk -- viscous, sticky, icky uckulous material, like dirty grease--YES
honk -- to blow a horn, esp. & almost excl. a car or bike horn; to sing
like a goose; dial. of hunk--YES (but no relation to hunk for me)
honker -- a large nose (see Jamie Farr) --YES
hunk -- a large mass of something--YES, also a well-built sexy guy (used by 
both M and F)
monk -- religious figure--YES but it doesn't rhyme with the rest...
nonknonk -- onom.--?
noink -- onom.--?
oink -- to talk like a pig--YES
plonk -- onom.-- ? but can refer to bad red wine, e.g. "Spanish plonk"
plunk -- like plonk; also to pay out a sum of money ("plunk down")--not related 
to plonk; for me, (and usually with "down") it means to set s.t. down with some 
force
ponk -- like donk; dial. of punk--?
poink -- like doink, esp. water dripping from a tap--?? (sounds reasonable, but 
I've never heard it)
punk -- an ill behaved person--YES; also adj. punky w.r.t.slightly rotten wood
tonk -- a card game; an illegal alien--?
toink -- like boink or doink, only in the Phils--?
tunk -- a blow or strike--?
twink -- another "small" sound effect, a metallic sound--in my world, only 
slightly fem, young, rather willowy gay kid
wonk -- nerd, intellectual (I think orig. derog., but I don't find it to be
derogatory at all)--YES, but always a bit derogatory IMO--in college, we 
preppies used it to refer to the often nerdy commuter students and other 
townies (shame on us).
wonky -- unstable--NO, just the adj. form of wonk
yonk -- a wide variety of slang and dial. meanings. I like "period of three
weeks" best; also like yoink--?
yoink -- onom. usu. used when taking something from someone--?
zonk -- a worthless object; to become tired or worn out--only the latter (with 
"out", "to conk out" = collapse into sleep from fatigue" can be a synonym)

(snip a little)

The O/U variants seems to be regionalisms for each other. I would say
"junk" or "gunk", and would take "jonk" and "gonk" to be some dialectal
variant, possibly Appalachian or near-mid-western.

RM Could well be...I recall when I taught at a college in the near-Appalachia 
region, we outlanders made fun of the 

[conlang] Digest Number 8807

[conlang]

There are 15 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Oppa Klingon style
From: Zach Wellstood
1b. Re: Oppa Klingon style
From: Alex Fink
1c. Re: Oppa Klingon style
From: Cosman246

2a. Re: Kosher
From: Roger Mills
2b. Re: Kosher
From: Zach Wellstood
2c. Re: Kosher
From: Zach Wellstood
2d. Re: Kosher
From: Tony Harris
2e. Re: Kosher
From: Michael Everson

3.1. META: Conlang-L FAQ
From: Henrik Theiling

4a. Re: Discussions of taboo vocabulary (was: OT: Russian interlinear fo
From: Nikolay Ivankov
4b. Re: Discussions of taboo vocabulary (was: OT: Russian interlinear fo
From: R A Brown
4c. Re: Discussions of taboo vocabulary (was: OT: Russian interlinear fo
From: Padraic Brown
4d. Re: Discussions of taboo vocabulary (was: OT: Russian interlinear fo
From: R A Brown

5a. Mutation in Corsican
From: James Campbell
5b. Re: Mutation in Corsican
From: Armin Buch


Messages

1a. Re: Oppa Klingon style
Posted by: "Zach Wellstood" zwellst...@gmail.com 
Date: Sun Sep 30, 2012 3:12 pm ((PDT))

Definitely didn't understand the references, but it's hilarious! I love it.

On Sun, Sep 30, 2012 at 6:10 PM, Roger Mills  wrote:

> Well, it's funny in itself, even though I've never seen the original nor
> do I understand Klingon (which I thought was actually _Thlingan_).
>
> --- On Sun, 9/30/12, Garth Wallace  wrote:
>
> From: Garth Wallace 
> Subject: Oppa Klingon style
> To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
> Date: Sunday, September 30, 2012, 3:56 PM
>
> I have no idea how good the Klingon is in this thing (I suspect not
> very), but I figured you guys may get a kick out of it:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CayMeza487M
>



-- 
ra'aalalí 'aa! - [sirisaá! <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conlang>]





Messages in this topic (7)

1b. Re: Oppa Klingon style
Posted by: "Alex Fink" 000...@gmail.com 
Date: Sun Sep 30, 2012 3:12 pm ((PDT))

On Sun, 30 Sep 2012 12:56:29 -0700, Garth Wallace  wrote:

>I have no idea how good the Klingon is in this thing (I suspect not
>very)

I suspect it'll be grammatically alright -- they say they were advised by Felix 
Malmenbeck who seems to know his stuff.  To pick a random example, _'Iw HIq 
Datlhutlh_ 'you drink bloodwine' seems to check out to me (who is only armed 
with Okrand's book  and the merest traces of independent knowledge).

But it does come off stylistically kinda gauche (unless there are established 
facts about Klingon style I don't appreciate).  E.g. the subtitles have lots of 
simple lists of disjointed nouns, where the Korean equivalent has a clause.  
And they haven't captured the single stand-outiest feature of the original 
text, which is that each of the main stanzas has every line end either in 
_yeoja_ or _sana-i_.  That can't have been that hard to do -- it's easier than 
rhyming...

Alex





Messages in this topic (7)

1c. Re: Oppa Klingon style
Posted by: "Cosman246" yashtuls...@gmail.com 
Date: Sun Sep 30, 2012 3:32 pm ((PDT))

It seems like it was mangled in to the Korean lyrics of the original.

-Yash Tulsyan (yasht, cosman246)
http://cosman246.com
"Once men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this
would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to
enslave them." --Dune

"If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal" -Emma Goldman



On Sun, Sep 30, 2012 at 3:12 PM, Alex Fink <000...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sun, 30 Sep 2012 12:56:29 -0700, Garth Wallace 
> wrote:
>
> >I have no idea how good the Klingon is in this thing (I suspect not
> >very)
>
> I suspect it'll be grammatically alright -- they say they were advised by
> Felix Malmenbeck who seems to know his stuff.  To pick a random example,
> _'Iw HIq Datlhutlh_ 'you drink bloodwine' seems to check out to me (who is
> only armed with Okrand's book  and the merest traces of independent
> knowledge).
>
> But it does come off stylistically kinda gauche (unless there are
> established facts about Klingon style I don't appreciate).  E.g. the
> subtitles have lots of simple lists of disjointed nouns, where the Korean
> equivalent has a clause.  And they haven't captured the single
> stand-outiest feature of the original text, which is that each of the main
> stanzas has every line end either in _yeoja_ or _sana-i_.  That can't have
> been that hard to do -- it's easier than rhyming...
>
> Alex
>

[conlang] Digest Number 8808

[conlang]

There are 5 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Discussions of taboo vocabulary (was: OT: Russian interlinear fo
From: And Rosta
1b. Re: Discussions of taboo vocabulary (was: OT: Russian interlinear fo
From: Nikolay Ivankov

2. unsubscribe
From: Joseph Gilbert

3a. Re: Mutation in Corsican
From: Alex Fink
3b. Re: Mutation in Corsican
From: Roger Mills


Messages

1a. Re: Discussions of taboo vocabulary (was: OT: Russian interlinear fo
Posted by: "And Rosta" and.ro...@gmail.com 
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2012 6:01 am ((PDT))

R A Brown, On 01/10/2012 13:34:
> On 01/10/2012 13:14, Padraic Brown wrote:
>> --- On Mon, 10/1/12, R A Brown
>>  wrote:
>>
>>>> You need guts to study cockney English of Harlem
>>>> dialect of African American seriously. I don't have
>>>> it.
>>>
>>> I cannot comment on the "Harlem dialect of African
>>> American", but I really do not understand why anyone
>>> 'needs guts' to study Cockney English.
>>
>> I think he means not so much the study of the dialect
>> per se so much as the going into potentially dangerous
>> areas in order to study the dialect up close and
>> personal.
>
> I see - but Cockneyland is not particularly dangerous, is it?

I expect that by 'Cockney', Nikolay meant, as many do, the contemporary 
basilect of London, rather than the traditional accent of aborigines that is 
increasingly being supplanted by the very different Multiethnic London English. 
To the not very great extent that any part of Britain would be dangerous to the 
fieldworker, or to the retention of their laptop, the heartland of the 
contemporary London basilect would probably top the list of mildly perilous 
locations. It still doesn't take guts to study the dialect, tho.

--And.





Messages in this topic (7)

1b. Re: Discussions of taboo vocabulary (was: OT: Russian interlinear fo
Posted by: "Nikolay Ivankov" lukevil...@gmail.com 
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2012 6:37 am ((PDT))

On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 3:01 PM, And Rosta  wrote:

> R A Brown, On 01/10/2012 13:34:
>
>  On 01/10/2012 13:14, Padraic Brown wrote:
>>
>>> --- On Mon, 10/1/12, R A Brown
>>>  wrote:
>>>
>>>  You need guts to study cockney English of Harlem
>>>>> dialect of African American seriously. I don't have
>>>>> it.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I cannot comment on the "Harlem dialect of African
>>>> American", but I really do not understand why anyone
>>>> 'needs guts' to study Cockney English.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I think he means not so much the study of the dialect
>>> per se so much as the going into potentially dangerous
>>> areas in order to study the dialect up close and
>>> personal.
>>>
>>
>> I see - but Cockneyland is not particularly dangerous, is it?
>>
>
> I expect that by 'Cockney', Nikolay meant, as many do, the contemporary
> basilect of London, rather than the traditional accent of aborigines that
> is increasingly being supplanted by the very different Multiethnic London
> English. To the not very great extent that any part of Britain would be
> dangerous to the fieldworker, or to the retention of their laptop, the
> heartland of the contemporary London basilect would probably top the list
> of mildly perilous locations. It still doesn't take guts to study the
> dialect, tho.
>
> --And.
>

Ok, I might have no idea about the Cockneyland, but I have quite a perfect
one of the Gopnikland. You may blame me for disgusting it after being robed
and beaten several times by the people ho have this version of Russian as a
mothertongue, for being constantly on the alert since then. Yes I do
personally despise the culture and its language because, but not only, of
that. Sue me for this, all are welcome!

Yet, I've written two comments to the original thread, and the main content
of them concerned the linguistic matter: first one that there were two
other roots other than the prevalent one in the compound words, and the
second about the clitic and consonant reduction before it. And I'm not
trying prohibit anyone studying the matter - in the end, such kind of
language quirks may be of interest for a conculture. Say, to describe a
language of slums or gangsters.

It just is that I don't want to be associated with the peo

[conlang] Digest Number 8809

[conlang]

There are 15 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Mutation in Corsican
From: Roger Mills
1b. Re: Mutation in Corsican
From: Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets
1c. Re: Mutation in Corsican
From: Dirk Elzinga
1d. Re: Mutation in Corsican
From: Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets
1e. Re: Mutation in Corsican
From: Roger Mills
1f. Re: Mutation in Corsican
From: J. 'Mach' Wust
1g. Re: Mutation in Corsican
From: James Campbell

2a. Re: Discussions of taboo vocabulary (was: OT: Russian interlinear fo
From: Roger Mills

3. Re: CONLANG Digest - 27 Sep 2012 to 28 Sep 2012 (#2012-272)
From: Serafín Finrij

4a. USAGE: Need French terms for raising/falling diphthong
From: Serafín Finrij
4b. Re: USAGE: Need French terms for raising/falling diphthong
From: Roger Mills

5a. lexically restricted constructions
From: Tristan
5b. Re: lexically restricted constructions
From: George Corley
5c. Re: lexically restricted constructions
From: Jeffrey Daniel Rollin-Jones

6. shorthand with standard English spelling
From: MorphemeAddict


Messages

1a. Re: Mutation in Corsican
Posted by: "Roger Mills" romi...@yahoo.com 
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2012 10:10 am ((PDT))

--- On Mon, 10/1/12, Roger Mills  wrote:


Of course it could be incorporated into a conlang. ANYTHING can be -

It seems to me that something similar to this Corsican procedure also takes 
place in Sicilian (or may Neapolitan

,or southern Italian in general)-- though this is only anecdotal

Fortition can also happen; one of the colloquial habits of Kash speakers is to 
geminate voiceless stops after a stressed vowel, so _kota_ 'word; to say' is 
often ['kot:@] (reduction of final /-a/ > [@] is also very common).

I was thinking that Italian also geminates some consonants, but all the exs. I 
thought of derived from historical clusters... e.g. reppublica < Lat.res 
publica. Maybe _doppo_ 'after' too-- Spanish has a cluster (después), but 
French and Portuguese don't (resp. depuis and depois IIRC). Dont know what the 
V.L. would have been
===

A couple more things came to mind:

The dropping  of /d/ [D] between vowels, even in phrases.  Things like "hablao" 
for _hablado_ are very common; but it also can happen in cases "la casa de..." 
[la'kasa.e...] esp. if the next word begins with a consonant. Could just be a 
fast speech phenomenon... (Which leads to the oft-cited ex. of 
hypercorrection: Bilbado [bil'baDo] for the city Bilbao.)

Also, once for some reason, I had occasion to use the Dutch word _bakpoeder_ 
['bakpud@r] 'baking powder' in a conversation with my Indonesian teacher at 
U.MIch (she was an older Javanese lady)-- she corrected me to ['bakpuj@r]. I 
didn't pursue the point, but I wonder if it happens in words like _moeder_ 
'mother' or other cases of /d/ between vowels. 





Messages in this topic (11)

1b. Re: Mutation in Corsican
Posted by: "Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets" tsela...@gmail.com 
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2012 1:53 pm ((PDT))

On 1 October 2012 19:10, Roger Mills  wrote:

>
> Also, once for some reason, I had occasion to use the Dutch word
> _bakpoeder_ ['bakpud@r] 'baking powder' in a conversation with my
> Indonesian teacher at U.MIch (she was an older Javanese lady)-- she
> corrected me to ['bakpuj@r]. I didn't pursue the point, but I wonder if
> it happens in words like _moeder_ 'mother' or other cases of /d/ between
> vowels.
>

[ˈpujər] for _poeder_ strikes me as very informal, but I've heard it before
in the Netherlands. I've never heard [ˈmujər] for _moeder_, but I wouldn't
be surprised if something like that existed in some dialect.

A rather common one though is [ˈχujə] for _ɡoede_, especially in
expressions like _ɡoedemorɡen_ "good morning" or _goede middag_ "good
afternoon" (in that case, pronouncing the [d] sounds a bit formal or
emphatic to me).

There might be other cases where it happens, but I can't think of them
right now. In any case, it seems to exist, but isn't used with the same
frequency in all words where it could.
-- 
Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.

http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/





Messages in this topic (11)

1c. Re: Mutation in Corsican
Posted by: "Dirk Elzinga" dirk.elzi...@gmail.com 
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2012 2:33 pm ((PDT))

I think 'moer' [muːr] exists, but it strikes me as very basilectal. (There

[conlang] Digest Number 8810

[conlang]

t; is "goed" and "Broeder" is/was
sometimes used when Church council or Volksraad members address/d each
other, instead of "meneer" [mister]).
The intervocalic «g» is also gone:
vogel> voël ; regen> reën ; zeggen> sê ; gelegen> gelê.
also hebben> hê ; geven> gee

However, "moeder" and "Nederland(s)" didn't loose the /d/!
"Moer" is the left-over stuff after filtering coffee; it is also a
vulgarish verb meaning "to give a severe beating (in a fight) or to hit
very hard"





Messages in this topic (12)


3a. Re: lexically restricted constructions
Posted by: "Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets" tsela...@gmail.com 
Date: Tue Oct 2, 2012 3:21 am ((PDT))

On 2 October 2012 10:25, Jeffrey Daniel Rollin-Jones
wrote:

> As a Brit, were I abroad I would find it perfectly natural to people to
> say, "you should come to Britain".
>
>
I think in English the come/go distinction is based on the topical centre
of the action at hand rather than the position of the speaker and/or
listener. If someone calls you over, they are the topical centre, so you'll
reply "I'm coming!". That's not necessarily so in other languages. Japanese
for instance, seems to be strongly "speaker-oriented", as I've seen it
called, in that the choice between some pairs of verbs like kuru/iku
(come/go) and ageru/kureru (both mean "give") is based purely on the
(possibly metaphorical, although usually absolute) position of the speaker.
Movement towards the position of the speaker will always be described using
"kuru", while movement away from the position of the speaker will be
described with "iku" (including movements of the speaker themself). So when
called over someone will reply with something like "iku wa yo!", literally
"I go!". This is, among others, one of the reasons why personal pronouns
are seeing so little use in Japanese: those verbs generally imply a
specific person as subject. Since "iku" always indicates movement away from
the speaker, it usually indicates movement of the speaker themself, and
thus imply "I" as subject, while "kuru" implies movement towards the
speaker, i.e. movement the speaker themself cannot accomplish, so the
subject must be "you" or "he/she/it". Same thing happens with the pair
ageru/kureru. Both mean "to give", but "ageru" implies giving "away from
the speaker" (i.e. the speaker giving something to the listener or someone
else, or the listener giving something to someone else), while "kureru"
(and its honorific synonym "kudasaru") imply that the recipient is always
the speaker, while the subject can be the listener (usually using
"kudasaru" to keep the peace :P) or a third party. Those two verbs, by the
way, are regularly used as auxiliaries (with the main verb in its -te form)
to indicate the "direction" of the action (usually with the secondary
meaning of "doing a favour"), which helps remove the need for personal
pronouns even more.


My Moten is also a speaker-oriented language, as strict, or maybe even
stricter than Japanese. Such speaker oriented verb pairs are for instance
juba|si/jagi (equivalent of kuru/iku, except that "juba|si" also means "to
arrive, to be enough", while "jagi" also means "to leave, to be worth") and
joplej/ja|zi|n (equivalent of ageru/kureru, except that they both properly
mean "to transfer" and can be used to mean "to give", but also "to get, to
receive, to take, to bring...").


> In Spanish, if someone calls you over you call back, "ahora voy" :
> literally "now I'm going".
>
>
French people sidestep the issue by calling back "j'arrive !": "I'm
arriving!" :) .
-- 
Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.

http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/





Messages in this topic (10)

3b. Re: lexically restricted constructions
Posted by: "Iuhan Culmærija" culm...@gmail.com 
Date: Tue Oct 2, 2012 8:01 am ((PDT))

2012/10/2 Tristan 

> I've heard it claimed that there are restrictions on the usage of come in
> 'proper' English. In particular: the destination must be here relative to
> the speaker at the time of speech. That is 'I came to town' is licit,
> whereas 'I will come to town' isn't (though it sounds fine to me).
>
>
To me there's a difference in meaning/ context - especially in the "I w

[conlang] Digest Number 8811

[conlang]

There are 12 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Instrumentation: Breakthrough
From: Ralph DeCarli
1b. Re: Instrumentation: Breakthrough
From: George Corley

2a. Re: lexically restricted constructions
From: Herman Miller
2b. Re: lexically restricted constructions
From: Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets
2c. Re: lexically restricted constructions
From: MorphemeAddict

3a. Conlang Relay 20
From: Fenhl
3b. Re: Conlang Relay 20
From: Sam Stutter
3c. Re: Conlang Relay 20
From: Fenu Hel
3d. Re: Conlang Relay 20
From: Roger Mills
3e. Re: Conlang Relay 20
From: Adam Walker
3f. Re: Conlang Relay 20
From: Fenhl

4a. Re: Mutation in Corsican
From: Christian Thalmann


Messages

1a. Instrumentation: Breakthrough
Posted by: "Ralph DeCarli" omniv...@sysmatrix.net 
Date: Tue Oct 2, 2012 6:39 pm ((PDT))

I've been calling Instrumentation an ideographic language because a
single glyph can express a complete and complex thought, such as,
"the feeling you get on the first cool morning in Fall". I was
bothered by the fact that a single glyph can also represent a
disconnected word like 'else' or 'because'. 

I've now realized that since Instrumentation deals with both partial
and complete ideas it should properly be called an idiotic language. 

Ralph
-- 

Have you heard of the new post-neo-modern art style?
They haven't decided what it looks like yet.





Messages in this topic (2)

1b. Re: Instrumentation: Breakthrough
Posted by: "George Corley" gacor...@gmail.com 
Date: Tue Oct 2, 2012 7:45 pm ((PDT))

On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 8:37 PM, Ralph DeCarli wrote:

> I've been calling Instrumentation an ideographic language because a
> single glyph can express a complete and complex thought, such as,
> "the feeling you get on the first cool morning in Fall". I was
> bothered by the fact that a single glyph can also represent a
> disconnected word like 'else' or 'because'.
>
> I've now realized that since Instrumentation deals with both partial
> and complete ideas it should properly be called an idiotic language.


If "the feeling you get on the first cool morning in Fall" is a single,
monomorphemic word, it's not such a big deal.  But yeah, there isn't really
such a thing as an "ideographic" language.  All known natural writing
systems in some way represent a spoken language, rather than having written
symbols that are meaningful in themselves.  Not that a written-only
language is impossible, there's UNWLS floating around, after all.  Such
things will probably have some structural similarity with spoken languages
at some point.





Messages in this topic (2)


2a. Re: lexically restricted constructions
Posted by: "Herman Miller" hmil...@prismnet.com 
Date: Tue Oct 2, 2012 8:02 pm ((PDT))

On 10/2/2012 11:28 AM, Zach Wellstood wrote:
> I probably can't contribute much more about English than has been already,
> but łaá siri's come/go distinction isn't really similar to English's.
> "come" means something more like "originate" and "go" can be specified as
> "go towards x" or "go from x." "Come" occurs much less frequently than "go"
> does.

Tirelat has taga "leave, depart from" and łuhġa "go to", which are 
transitive, plus zihki "arrive", which is intransitive, and ŕahvi "move" 
(which was intransitive in Relay 6, but currently transitive). For 
"come", Tirelat would use either zihki or łuhġa, depending on whether it 
is used transitively. Using ŕahvi in the middle voice (ŕahvimu) is one 
way to express intransitive "go".





Messages in this topic (13)

2b. Re: lexically restricted constructions
Posted by: "Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets" tsela...@gmail.com 
Date: Tue Oct 2, 2012 11:31 pm ((PDT))

On 2 October 2012 17:15, David McCann  wrote:

> On Tue, 2 Oct 2012 12:21:50 +0200
> Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets  wrote:
> > I think in English the come/go distinction is based on the topical
> > centre of the action at hand rather than the position of the speaker
> > and/or listener.
>
> Or to any place under consideration. The OED definition is "movement
> towards the speaker  or a point where he or she is or mentally places
> himself or herself, or towards 

[conlang] Digest Number 8812

[conlang]

ic (5)


2a. Re: Kosher
Posted by: "BPJ" b...@melroch.se 
Date: Wed Oct 3, 2012 1:32 pm ((PDT))

On 2012-10-01 10:27, Michael Everson wrote:
> On 30 Sep 2012, at 08:06, Charlie Brickner wrote:
>
>> Icelandic: Matur höndlaður samkvœmt helgisiðum gyðinga
>>
>> Can anyone give us the literal meaning of these expressions?
>
> Meat handladen samecome holysede jewings.
>
> Or:
>
> Food prepared according to Jewish religious law.

That's evidently not the whole story.  Icelandic *does*
have loanwords (other than calques) for terms like these.

<http://is.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosher>

<http://is.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halal>

Besides I was once informed that the food on a certain
shelf in the fridge was someone's _Gýðingamatur_, but
you probably won't find that term in dictionaries or on WP!

I just dicovered that there is a calque (_hljóðan_)
although _fónem_ is by far more common.
So much for my on-topic example...

/Bensi með beinin





Messages in this topic (12)
________
2b. Re: Kosher
Posted by: "Eugene Oh" un.do...@gmail.com 
Date: Wed Oct 3, 2012 3:52 pm ((PDT))

Not true. It's the general word for food.

2012/9/30 Zach Wellstood 

> It's also worth mentioning that the original phrase you had for food (shi2
> wu4) means "food" but only for animals.
>
> Zach
>
> On Sun, Sep 30, 2012 at 6:29 PM, Zach Wellstood  >wrote:
>
> > On Sun, Sep 30, 2012 at 3:06 AM, Charlie Brickner <
> > caeruleancent...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Mandarin: yóu tài hé fav shí wù
> >>
> >  I think the Mandarin is inaccurate and should be: hé yóutàirén jièlǜ
> > 合犹太人戒律 (that's what I found when I looked it up, since I 
> > haven't had a
> > reason to learn the term for Kosher in my Chinese classes!).
> >
> > It literally means, "suiting Jewish people religious doctrine/tenets."
> >
> > --
> > ra'aalalí 'aa! - [sirisaá! <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conlang>]
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> ra'aalalí 'aa! - [sirisaá! <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conlang>]
>





Messages in this topic (12)

2c. Re: Kosher
Posted by: "Zach Wellstood" zwellst...@gmail.com 
Date: Wed Oct 3, 2012 4:10 pm ((PDT))

On Oct 3, 2012 6:52 PM, "Eugene Oh"  wrote:
>
> Not true. It's the general word for food.

I was taught shi2 pin3 for general food and shi2 wu4 for animal food.

> 2012/9/30 Zach Wellstood 
>
> > It's also worth mentioning that the original phrase you had for food
(shi2
> > wu4) means "food" but only for animals.
> >
> > Zach
> >
> > On Sun, Sep 30, 2012 at 6:29 PM, Zach Wellstood  > >wrote:
> >
> > > On Sun, Sep 30, 2012 at 3:06 AM, Charlie Brickner <
> > > caeruleancent...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >>
> > >> Mandarin: yóu tài hé fav shí wù
> > >>
> > >  I think the Mandarin is inaccurate and should be: hé yóutàirén jièlǜ
> > > 合犹太人戒律 (that's what I found when I looked it up, since I 
> > > haven't had a
> > > reason to learn the term for Kosher in my Chinese classes!).
> > >
> > >





Messages in this topic (12)


3a. Re: Discussions of taboo vocabulary (was: OT: Russian interlinear fo
Posted by: "Sai" s...@saizai.com 
Date: Wed Oct 3, 2012 4:27 pm ((PDT))

On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 6:37 AM, Nikolay Ivankov  wrote:
> And I'm not
> trying prohibit anyone studying the matter - in the end, such kind of
> language quirks may be of interest for a conculture. Say, to describe a
> language of slums or gangsters.

FWIW to clarify, my ObCL challenge was meant to refer to the wordplay,
not the cussing — though language certainly needs both (cf Stephen Fry
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_osQvkeNRM). ;-)

I find the fact that the despite its almost complete reliance on
derivation it manages to convey pretty clear meaning rather neat. And
the Chinese poem "Lion-Eating Poet in the Stone Den" is just epic.
I've not really seen either in conlanging, which seems sad.

- Sai





Messages in this topic (13)

3b. Re: Discussions of taboo vocabulary (w

[conlang] Digest Number 8813

[conlang]

or some other suitably poetic word. But it seems that Roger
is actually working on a musical setting for the poem, so perhaps oratorio
isn't far from the mark.

The only thing I'd ask then is: are the performers going to sing,
as singers would do during an ordinary oratorio, or is someong going to
read the poem as a poem with background music? I.e., are you producing an
*oratorio* or a *poetic reading* set to music?
==========

Oh no, it is a full-fledged oratorio type thing (or maybe Cantata a la Bach is 
closer to the mark, but I'm staying true to the title).with soloists, 
chorus and assorted instrumentalists.   I began it in 1974 !!! and got perhaps 
80% written or at least sketched out (it even includes one of Bach's chorale 
settings).. then silly old Real Life (TM) intervened and I've only recently 
started looking at it again, realizing Sept. 2013 will be the 40th anniversary 
of the Chilean Revolution and after-affects. Whether it will ever be performed, 
or even performable, is another matter. ;-) I need to consult now with someone 
who actually knows how to compose for various instruments.

I can't find any Engl. translation of the poem; if anyone is interested and 
doesn't read Spanish, I have done a translation of my own, hopefully accurate 
and available. 

Just occurred to me: I probably will  have to get somebody's permission, as I 
suspect the poem (written sometime in the early 1940s) is still under 
copyright. Bah





Messages in this topic (9)

5d. Re: OT: question for Spanish speakers
Posted by: "Adam Walker" carra...@gmail.com 
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2012 9:39 am ((PDT))

On Thu, Oct 4, 2012 at 11:12 AM, Roger Mills  wrote:

> --- Just occurred to me: I probably will  have to get somebody's
> permission, as I suspect the poem (written sometime in the early 1940s) is
> still under copyright. Bah
>

Isn't copyright expiration tied to the date of the author's death, not to
the date of publication?  IIRC it's death + 75 years at present in the US.

Adam





Messages in this topic (9)






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[conlang] Digest Number 8814

[conlang]

There are 2 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: OT: question for Spanish speakers
From: Padraic Brown
1b. Re: OT: question for Spanish speakers
From: Padraic Brown


Messages

1a. Re: OT: question for Spanish speakers
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" elemti...@yahoo.com 
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2012 7:00 pm ((PDT))

--- On Thu, 10/4/12, Roger Mills  wrote:

> > I.e., are you producing an *oratorio* or a *poetic reading* set to 
> > music?
> 
> Oh no, it is a full-fledged oratorio type thing (or maybe
> Cantata a la Bach is closer to the mark, but I'm staying
> true to the title).with soloists, chorus and assorted
> instrumentalists.   

Wow! That is absolutely fantastic! When (and where) is this going to be
performed?

Oh yeah -- I'd definitely keep "Oratorio", then!

> I began it in 1974 !!! 

Well, nothing wrong with that at all! None of the music I write can compare
for scope, but can at least come close for how long it takes to finish.
Too much tinkering; too much leaving things half done for twenty years...

> and got perhaps
> 80% written or at least sketched out (it even includes one
> of Bach's chorale settings).. then silly old Real Life
> (TM) intervened and I've only recently started looking at it
> again, realizing Sept. 2013 will be the 40th anniversary of
> the Chilean Revolution and after-affects. Whether it will
> ever be performed, or even performable, is another matter.
> ;-) I need to consult now with someone who actually knows
> how to compose for various instruments.

Definitely not something I know a whole lot about. I do know there are
works on orchestration. At least you might be able to talk intelligently
about what you're after, once you find a composer willing to work with
you. The article in the Font of All Knowledge lists several 19th and
20th century works on the topic. It also says that orchestrators get paid
$60 per page plus a surcharge for insurance and pension. Something to
think about.

Might also look into an online composers forum, like 
http://composersforum.ning.com/group/orchestrators

> I can't find any Engl. translation of the poem; if anyone is
> interested and doesn't read Spanish, I have done a
> translation of my own, hopefully accurate and available. 
> 
> Just occurred to me: I probably will  have to get
> somebody's permission, as I suspect the poem (written
> sometime in the early 1940s) is still under copyright.
> Bah

I'm not sure why you'd need permission to create a new work based on a
poem. Perhaps if you were planning to reproduce a copy of the text in
the program or something?

The Univ. of NM has rights to (at least one particular) digital image
of the poem 
(http://econtent.unm.edu/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/taller&CISOPTR=32&CISOBOX=1&REC=4)
 you might consider contacting them if you wish
to use their image. Princeton also has an original: 
http://pudl.princeton.edu/objects/gh93gz59b

You might have to contact the Mexican embassy / consulate near you for
legal assistance in determining any copyright status or possible stepping
on of toes...

Padraic
 





Messages in this topic (11)

1b. Re: OT: question for Spanish speakers
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" elemti...@yahoo.com 
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2012 5:38 am ((PDT))

--- On Thu, 10/4/12, Adam Walker  wrote:

> > --- Just occurred to me: I probably will  have to get somebody's
> > permission, as I suspect the poem (written sometime in the early 
> > 1940s) is still under copyright. Bah
>
> 
> Isn't copyright expiration tied to the date of the author's
> death, not to the date of publication?  IIRC it's death + 75 years at
> present in the US.

May be - but the thing was written in / published in Mexico, so wouldn't
it depend more on Mexican or international copyright law?

Easier to just do it the old-fashioned way and unashamedly plagarize!

> Adam

Padraic





Messages in this topic (11)






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[conlang] Digest Number 8815

[conlang]

> Isn't copyright expiration tied to the date of
> the author's death, not to
> >>> the date of publication?  IIRC it's death
> + 75 years at present in the US.
> > 
> >> Death plus 70 years, for works published in the
> author's lifetime,
> >> unless the work had already fallen into the public
> domain under
> >> pre-1976 copyright law.  If it was published
> posthumously, it's 95
> >> years from publication.
> > 
> > Death plus seventy years is for unpublished works
> (unless created
> > anonymously, pseudonymously, or for hire which is
> creation plus one
> > hundred and twenty years).
> > 
> > As it was presumably first published in Mexico, US
> status depends on
> > whether the copyright has expired in Mexico (unless it
> was then published
> > in the US less than 30 days after that!). Mexico
> appears to be a simple
> > death plus one hundred years in this case, so term in
> the US is probably
> > death plus ninty-five years.
> > 
> > See <http://copyright.cornell.edu/resources/publicdomain.cfm>
> for the
> > possible twists.
> > 
> > Tristan
> > 
> > --All original matter is hereby placed immediately
> under the public domain.
> 





Messages in this topic (15)






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[conlang] Digest Number 8816

[conlang]

There are 10 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: OT: copyright term (was OT: question for Spanish speakers)
From: George Corley
1b. Re: OT: copyright term (was OT: question for Spanish speakers)
From: Amanda Babcock Furrow
1c. Re: OT: copyright term (was OT: question for Spanish speakers)
From: And Rosta
1d. Re: OT: copyright term (was OT: question for Spanish speakers)
From: George Corley
1e. Re: OT: copyright term (was OT: question for Spanish speakers)
From: Sai
1f. Re: OT: copyright term (was OT: question for Spanish speakers)
From: George Corley
1g. Re: OT: copyright term (was OT: question for Spanish speakers)
From: Padraic Brown
1h. Re: OT: copyright term (was OT: question for Spanish speakers)
From: George Corley
1i. Re: OT: copyright term (was OT: question for Spanish speakers)
From: Sai

2. Fiat Lingua for October
From: David Peterson


Messages

1a. Re: OT: copyright term (was OT: question for Spanish speakers)
Posted by: "George Corley" gacor...@gmail.com 
Date: Sat Oct 6, 2012 10:00 am ((PDT))

On Sat, Oct 6, 2012 at 4:11 AM, Wesley Parish wrote:

> Oh happy happy joy joy. If I write something that becomes immensely
> popular after my death, how am I going to get paid for it? Copyright's
> supposed to provide incentives for continued creativity and productivity -
> how am I supposed to compose after I've decomposed?
>
> All of which is bound to provide some bright spark with ammo for some
> sharp SF/F satire in the future.


Much as I agree with the ludicrous length of copyright terms, I must point
out that this discussion could be considered NCNC (Copyright law being a
political issue).





Messages in this topic (24)

1b. Re: OT: copyright term (was OT: question for Spanish speakers)
Posted by: "Amanda Babcock Furrow" la...@quandary.org 
Date: Sat Oct 6, 2012 11:30 am ((PDT))

On Sat, Oct 06, 2012 at 12:00:49PM -0500, George Corley wrote:

> Much as I agree with the ludicrous length of copyright terms, I must point
> out that this discussion could be considered NCNC (Copyright law being a
> political issue).

No, I really don't think it can.

That restriction is only supposed to prevent people from having actual
political or religious debates on the list.  Nobody is taking a position
on copyright preparatory to having a debate.  Yes, we've wandered just a
smidge from the very useful concrete information about specific copyright
provisions - but only in one message, and Padraic immediately brought the
thread back on-topic in his inimitable way.

I don't think NCNC needs to be mentioned nearly as much as it is lately.

tylakèhlpë'fö,
Amanda





Messages in this topic (24)

1c. Re: OT: copyright term (was OT: question for Spanish speakers)
Posted by: "And Rosta" and.ro...@gmail.com 
Date: Sat Oct 6, 2012 12:27 pm ((PDT))

Amanda Babcock Furrow, On 06/10/2012 19:30:
> On Sat, Oct 06, 2012 at 12:00:49PM -0500, George Corley wrote:
>
>> Much as I agree with the ludicrous length of copyright terms, I must point
>> out that this discussion could be considered NCNC (Copyright law being a
>> political issue).
>
> No, I really don't think it can.
>
> That restriction is only supposed to prevent people from having actual
> political or religious debates on the list.  Nobody is taking a position
> on copyright preparatory to having a debate.  Yes, we've wandered just a
> smidge from the very useful concrete information about specific copyright
> provisions - but only in one message, and Padraic immediately brought the
> thread back on-topic in his inimitable way.
>
> I don't think NCNC needs to be mentioned nearly as much as it is lately.

& let us remember that Amanda is a doyenne of Conlang List of over twenty 
years' standing, great in wisdom & experience, and dial down this NCNC meme 
accordingly.

Furthermore, a little innocuous NCNC-flouting would remind the list that it is 
a guide as to how to avoid offending the more offendable; mere NCNC-flouting of 
an inoffensive sort is not intrinsically objectionable.

--And.





Messages in this topic (24)

1d. Re: OT: copyright term (was OT: question for Spanish speakers)
Posted by: "George Corley" gacor...@gmail.com 
Date: Sat Oct 6, 2012 12:50 pm ((PDT))

On Sat, Oct 6, 2012 at 2:26 PM, And Rosta  wrote:

> Amanda Babcock Furrow, On 06/10/2012 19:30:
>
>  On Sat, Oct 06, 2012 at 12:00:49PM -0500, George Corley wrote:
>>
>>  Much as I

[conlang] Digest Number 8817

[conlang]

was Re: Discussions of taboo vocabulary (was: OT: Ru
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" elemti...@yahoo.com 
Date: Sun Oct 7, 2012 1:33 pm ((PDT))

--- On Wed, 10/3/12, Jim Henry  wrote:

> > I'm not sure how interesting either could be in
> conlanging.  Unless you
> > have a very well established conlang and restrict
> yourself to known
> > vocabulary, something like this becomes quite easy,
> since you're creating
> > and defining the vocabulary anyway.
> 
> There's a poem in Esperanto by Julio Baghy which consists
> entirely of
> affixes, adpositions and conjunctions.  And there's one
> by William
> Auld that does neat silly things with the "opposite"
> derivational
> prefix "mal-".  There's a lot of other wordplay-poetry
> in Esperanto,
> but those two come immediately to mind.

One of my favorites in English is a poem / recitation called "Middle
English and Welsh Pie". With the exception of a few grammatical words,
the text, which describes the making of a pie and the inviting over of
friends to share said pie, consists entirely of English and Welsh town
names. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tltEZzTxxs)

At almost five minutes long, I think it's quiet the feat to keep up the
game!

Padraic

> Jim Henry
 





Messages in this topic (16)


4a. Creating Dialects
Posted by: "Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews" goldyemo...@gmail.com 
Date: Sun Oct 7, 2012 6:07 pm ((PDT))

I'm creating a universe, and I want the second planet, Sarm, to speak a 
dialect. How do I create the dialect?
Emerging poet
Pen Name Mellissa Green
Budding novelist
tweet me



GreenNovelist

blog


www.theworldofyemora.wordpress.com





Messages in this topic (12)

4b. Re: Creating Dialects
Posted by: "George Corley" gacor...@gmail.com 
Date: Sun Oct 7, 2012 6:17 pm ((PDT))

On Sun, Oct 7, 2012 at 8:07 PM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <
goldyemo...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I'm creating a universe, and I want the second planet, Sarm, to speak a
> dialect. How do I create the dialect?
> Emerging poet
> Pen Name Mellissa Green
> Budding novelist
> tweet me
>

Depends on what you've done so far.  If you already have the first
language, and the two are spoken in the same time period, you have a little
extra to do, since you might want to extrapolate backwards to a point where
the two dialects diverge.  But that depends on how divergent the dialect
is.  You might get away with making a few sound correspondences and
changing up the lexicon.





Messages in this topic (12)

4c. Re: Creating Dialects
Posted by: "Alex Fink" 000...@gmail.com 
Date: Sun Oct 7, 2012 6:44 pm ((PDT))

On Sun, 7 Oct 2012 21:07:42 -0400, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews 
 wrote:

>I'm creating a universe, and I want the second planet, Sarm, to speak a 
>dialect. How do I create the dialect?

Further to what George suggests, don't forget some morphological and syntactic 
variation too.  Dialect A uses a variant dative suffix, dialect B uses a 
periphrastic perfect where the others use the old inflectional one, dialect C 
makes much greater use of the clefting construction, whatnot.  (IME conlangers 
creating dialects pay disproportional attention to sound shifts and 
disproportionately ignore these things.)

What is the history of settlement on Sarm?  If it is only recently settled from 
the first planet, then its having a dialect of the settler's language is a good 
idea.  But if Sarm is supposed to have a long history, it should really have 
undergone the appropriate levels of linguistic divergence and have whole 
language families of its own.  Don't fall into the lazy con-universist's trap 
of having one language per planet!

Alex





Messages in this topic (12)

4d. Re: Creating Dialects
Posted by: "Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews" goldyemo...@gmail.com 
Date: Sun Oct 7, 2012 6:51 pm ((PDT))

I've started designing Yardish, which is the language for Yemora, the first 
planet.
Emerging poet
Pen Name Mellissa Green
Budding novelist
tweet me



GreenNovelist

blog


www.theworldofyemora.wordpress.com


- Original Message - 
From: "George Corley" 
To: 
Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2012 9:17 PM
Subject: Re: Creating Dialects


> On Sun, Oct 7, 2012 at 8:07 PM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <
> goldyemo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I'm creating a universe, and I want the second planet, Sarm, to spea

[conlang] Digest Number 8818

[conlang]

 and hence
> speak something "harsh" and "bellicose-like" (shades of our perception of
> German in the wake of the WWs?). Presumably, empaths, when they're not
> radiating warm fuzzies at one another, would speak something more
> mellifluous. Mind you, the crew of the Enterprise is painted in fairly
> broad strokes, too: the stereotypic Scot, the Russian, the Japanese, the
> regal, but hot, Nubian woman, the corn-fed, upright American (doesn't he
> even hail from Nebraska?) (and, of course, he's in charge) ..., but it's 
> at
> least a 60s stab at idealized Earth diversity that other planets don't get
> the luxury of experiencing. Having one culture per planet is okay in "The
> Little Prince", where each planet is the size of my living room, but the
> notion of each planet as a uniform nation-state with a planetary/national
> language is a little dated. I'm not enough of a Trekkie to know if the
> later series succeeded a little more in the verisimilitude dept. on this
> front. (My apologies for the sacrilège of disparaging a classic -- duck 
> and
> run).
>
> Kou
>
>
>=




-- 
Second Person, a chapbook of poetry by Patrick Dunn, is now available for
order from Finishing Line
Press<http://www.finishinglinepress.com/NewReleasesandForthcomingTitles.htm>
and
Amazon<http://www.amazon.com/Second-Person-Patrick-Dunn/dp/1599249065/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1324342341&sr=8-2>.
 





Messages in this topic (27)

1.14. Re: Creating Dialects
Posted by: "Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews" goldyemo...@gmail.com 
Date: Sun Oct 7, 2012 10:30 pm ((PDT))

Oh.
Emerging poet
Pen Name Mellissa Green
Budding novelist
tweet me



GreenNovelist

blog


www.theworldofyemora.wordpress.com


- Original Message - 
From: "Douglas Koller" 
To: 
Sent: Monday, October 08, 2012 1:23 AM
Subject: Re: Creating Dialects


> Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2012 01:17:21 -0400
> From: goldyemo...@gmail.com
> Subject: Re: Creating Dialects
> To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu

> I don't want to have to create another language. I'm still creating 
> Yardish.
> Why can't Sarmian borrow from Yardish?

Of course it can. For fictional purposes, you certainly don't need to create 
an entirely new, fully-fleshed out dialect. I think Alex's point was that 
saying they speak Language X on Planet X, Language Y on Planet Y, and 
Language Z on Planet Z rings a little hollow.

Kou  = 





Messages in this topic (27)

1.15. Re: Creating Dialects
Posted by: "Douglas Koller" douglaskol...@hotmail.com 
Date: Mon Oct 8, 2012 12:48 am ((PDT))

> Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2012 01:30:41 -0400
> From: goldyemo...@gmail.com
> Subject: Re: Creating Dialects
> To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu

> > I don't want to have to create another language. I'm still creating 
> > Yardish.


I feel your pain. As Géarthnuns is set in the here and now, albeit on a 
fictional landmass in the Sea of Japan, my approach has been by and large 
synchronic. Dialect-y stuff has been limited to a smattering of the 
"spigot/faucet", "bag/sack" variety, perhaps what a word for something might 
have been back in the 1930s, and the "standard" has some vowel off-gliding 
missing to the southwest. The Vdözçebs dialect is considered rustic and quaint, 
on the one hand looked down on as hickish by urbanites in the northeast, who 
then, on the other hand, go on to feel all warm and bucolically gooey when they 
hit the countryside to visit relatives or sightsee (sound like any languages we 
know?). What that actually would look and sound like is rather speculative. 
Géarthnuns would need to be a lot more free-standing than it is for me to foray 
into diachronic and/or meaningful dialectal turf. Focus the current snapshot 
before musing on what Middle Géarthnuns might have been.


I did once contemplate starting a new project called Ö Sang, a tonal language. 
But making a sketch just ain't my style, and the prospect of starting *all* 
over again simply sent me shrieking into the horizon. 

Kou
  




Messages in this topic (27)






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[conlang] Digest Number 8819

[conlang]

ble
>> for it to only have one language.  Of course, wherever the Yemorans came
>> from will have its own linguistic complexity, but you might not have to
>> address that if your story focuses on Yemora and  Sarm.  In that case, a
>> couple hundred years might be enough to produce different dialects on
>> Yemora and Sarm without having separate languages.
>>
>> If the planets are colonized, to what extent?  If there's only three
>> settlements on Yemora or Sarm, or there are lots of settlements with lots
>> of communication between them, you could have one homogeneous dialect.
>> However, if it consists of lots of little backwater settlements, I expect
>> you'd get a lot of dialects, fast.
>>
>





Messages in this topic (34)

1.6. Re: Creating Dialects
Posted by: "Allison Swenson" jlon...@gmail.com 
Date: Mon Oct 8, 2012 6:42 am ((PDT))

Even if Yemora has many languages, Sarm could still primarily speak a
dialect of Yardish, if the first colonists were Yardish speakers and it
hasn't seen many colonists from other parts of Yemora since then. Even if
there were other colonists who spoke other languages, it's still possible
that the Sarm dialect of Yardish could be the predominant one, even if
other languages or dialects existed on Sarm. So there's no real *need* to
create other languages. Just be aware that they'd probably be out there.

On Mon, Oct 8, 2012 at 9:14 AM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <
goldyemo...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Yemorans have been around for thousands of years. Yemora wasn't colonized,
> it's an alternate Earth with twin moons.
>
> Emerging poet
> Pen Name Mellissa Green
> Budding novelist
> tweet me
>
>
>
> GreenNovelist
>
> blog
>
>
> www.theworldofyemora.**wordpress.com<http://www.theworldofyemora.wordpress.com/>
>
>
> - Original Message - From: "Daniel Bowman" <
> danny.c.bow...@gmail.com>
> To: 
> Sent: Monday, October 08, 2012 7:44 AM
> Subject: Re: Creating Dialects
>
>
> 2012/10/8 Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews 
>>
>> Everyone on Yemora speaks Yardish. Not sure what the pre-languages would
>>> be.
>>>
>>>
>>> I think it comes down to this:  is the population on Yemora "native", as
>> in
>> have they lived there for thousands of years?  If so, then I agree with
>> the
>> general consensus on the list.  There will be more than one language on
>> Yemora, regardless of whether you choose to write about them or not.  You
>> can at least mention them in passing without spending months thinking
>> about
>> the details.  However, if Yemora was populated recently (last hundred or
>> two years) by a relatively homogeneous population, it is certainly
>> sensible
>> for it to only have one language.  Of course, wherever the Yemorans came
>> from will have its own linguistic complexity, but you might not have to
>> address that if your story focuses on Yemora and  Sarm.  In that case, a
>> couple hundred years might be enough to produce different dialects on
>> Yemora and Sarm without having separate languages.
>>
>> If the planets are colonized, to what extent?  If there's only three
>> settlements on Yemora or Sarm, or there are lots of settlements with lots
>> of communication between them, you could have one homogeneous dialect.
>> However, if it consists of lots of little backwater settlements, I expect
>> you'd get a lot of dialects, fast.
>>
>





Messages in this topic (34)

1.7. Re: Creating Dialects
Posted by: "And Rosta" and.ro...@gmail.com 
Date: Mon Oct 8, 2012 6:54 am ((PDT))

Padraic Brown, On 08/10/2012 03:12:
> --- On Sun, 10/7/12, Patrick Dunn  wrote:
>
>> 2.  grammar:  Often, complexities in one dialect
>> will be absent in another.
>>   For example, some dialects of English have a verbal
>> construction that
>> indicates habitual action, while standard English
>> doesn't.
>
> ??? "I sing" is, I'm pretty sure, the habitual aspect in Standard
> English. (It *certainly* ain't a present tense!, which is of course
> "I am singing".) "She walks through the park to work" doesn't mean
> that she's doing it now (present tense, even though "walks" derives
> from the present tense form in ME and OE), but rather that it is her
> habit to do so.

If "tense" is used in the standard technical sense of a grammatical category, 
then English has two tenses, Past and Nonpast: "I sing" is nonpast tense; past 
tense is "I sang".

English has no strictly habitual construction (that I can think of), tho _used 
to X_ will, when X is dynamic, receive a habitual interpretation. A habitual 
interpretation for "I sing" and "I sang" is possible, but because there is no 
constructional meaning and not because it is a habitual construction.

--And.





Messages in this topic (34)






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[conlang] Digest Number 8820

[conlang]

tched from octal to decimal counting) and plant and 
animal names.

Then there are the Lañ-Lañ people, who speak Prevli (an isolate) in several 
dialects. They are the "aborigines" of Yanatros, and are also found on some of 
the nearby islands (which probably do retain some distinct languages). There 
may have been some distinct languages in Yanatros in the past, but many of the 
Lañ-Lañ there were killed off when the Kash arrived. Their origin is disputed, 
and they are a tiny minority (300,000 out of a total ~1 billion). Sorry to say, 
I haven't worked on Prevli's history/development, though I consider them very 
interesting.

I am occasionally bothered by the fact that a planet somewhat larger than 
Earth, albeit thinly populated, has only three linguistic families. Maybe the 
low population (and low reproduction rates) has something to do with that.

Frankly, it's great fun-- especially (maybe, ahem, exclusively) for a 
linguist-- to try to work out these matters.





Messages in this topic (42)

1.2. Re: Creating Dialects
Posted by: "Jörg Rhiemeier" joerg_rhieme...@web.de 
Date: Mon Oct 8, 2012 12:00 pm ((PDT))

Hallo conlangers!

On Monday 08 October 2012 03:48:23 Nina-Kristine Johnson wrote:

> Hiya!
> 
> Is it all right if I add to this?

Sure.  It has degenerated into an English usage thread (as so
often here), but it is not officially closed ;)
 
> I, myself have a bit of experience (total amateur, though) with this, and
> here is how I did it.
> 
> You can take parts of the language and substitute the pronunciation of a
> word(e.g. a short "-a" sound turns into an long "-a" sound).
> 
> I also changed the grammar structure after making, small *minor* changes.
> 
> You may want to look for examples in real life languages and their
> respective dialects, though. Example: differences in Egyptian Arabic and
> Standard Arabic.

Yep.

Basically, dialects are just very closely related languages,
and thus building a language with dialects does not differ much
from building a language family (though the effort needed is
smaller as the dialects are so close together).  That is, you
start with a common ancestor language, and then create sets of
sound changes and other changes, one set for each dialect, and
apply them to your protolanguage.  The only difference is that
the change lists are shorter than when you develop "independent"
languages.

My main conlang Old Albic has 12 major dialects, which are
connected to each other by such sound correspondences.  They
all are daughter languages of Proto-Albic; I thus have 12
sound change lists which transform Proto-Albic into the 12
Old Albic dialects.  (There are also slight differences in
grammar, mostly regarding the frequencies with which certain
constructions are used.) 

--
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
"Bêsel asa Éam, a Éam atha cvanthal a cvanth atha Éamal." - SiM 1:1





Messages in this topic (42)

1.3. Re: Creating Dialects
Posted by: "Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews" goldyemo...@gmail.com 
Date: Mon Oct 8, 2012 10:39 pm ((PDT))

Why can't Yemora have one language, with past versions of the same language? 
It's a fantasy world.
Emerging poet
Pen Name Mellissa Green
Budding novelist
tweet me



GreenNovelist

blog


www.theworldofyemora.wordpress.com





Messages in this topic (42)

1.4. Re: Creating Dialects
Posted by: "Alex Fink" 000...@gmail.com 
Date: Mon Oct 8, 2012 11:09 pm ((PDT))

On Mon, 8 Oct 2012 10:13:43 -0700, Roger Mills  wrote:

>I am occasionally bothered by the fact that a planet somewhat larger than 
>Earth, albeit thinly populated, has only three linguistic families. Maybe the 
>low population (and low reproduction rates) has something to do with that.

That does feel very small, doesn't it.  But how deep are the families?  You 
name a figure of 1 years with I'm not sure what import; if the families are 
actually traçable back 1 years, that's close to twice the depth of PIE, so 
they could really be quite large and diverse (the level of our Earthly 
Nostratic?)  

Also, I ponder, if the Gwr were technologically advanced enough to knock 
themselves back in a blaze of nukes already 750 years ago, they may've had 
mature academic linguistics back then too.  If they had 750 years more 
properly-collected data than we present-day humans do, this could well improve 
the quality of their reconstructions -- though I guess the limiting factor for 
in-world linguists is moreso the availability of very old branches, than lack 
of depth on modern varieties.  So what ìs the sta

[conlang] Digest Number 8821

[conlang]

st
>> form of isolation between groups will cause their speeches to diverge, even
>> if they keep communicating on and off. You'd have to have a seriously
>> strong reason to go against this, and "it's a fantasy world" is not enough
>> of a reason.
>> 
>> I think the only way you could get away with not mentioning other languages
>> on the planet is if you focus on only a small area of Yemora, and
>> *completely ignore the rest of the planet*! (basically, as if on Earth you
>> set your novel in France and never mentioned any other country) That'd work
>> out OK, especially if you make it clear that the scope isn't the full
>> planet but just a single country of area of it. But that's basically the
>> only way you could get away with monolingualism, by focussing on an area so
>> small that it becomes feasible.
>> -- 
>> Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.
>> 
>> http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
>> http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/ 





Messages in this topic (46)

2.2. Re: Creating Dialects
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" elemti...@yahoo.com 
Date: Tue Oct 9, 2012 9:42 am ((PDT))

--- On Tue, 10/9/12, Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets  wrote:

> > Why can't Yemora have one language, with past versions of the same
> > language? It's a fantasy world.
> 
> Because the 1 planet = 1 culture = 1 language is a tired
> outdated trope
> that nobody buys anymore nowadays. In other words, it breaks
> suspension of
> disbelief. Star Trek and Star Wars get away with it because
> they both
> started when that trope was still considered OK, and the
> weight of their
> pasts outweighs the cringe-worthiness of that trope. 

Right. Also, the storylines in those shows / movies don't necessarily give
us the full picture of any given planet. We see one kind of Klingon from
Qonos and know about one kind of Klingon language -- but we aren't told
how many different languages are actually spoken in their Empire. Belief
can still be undispended.

> But new works don't get such leeway.

Depends on the scope of the work, too. A smaller focus can allow the
author to get away it perhaps.

> I think the only way you could get away with not mentioning
> other languages
> on the planet is if you focus on only a small area of
> Yemora, and
> *completely ignore the rest of the planet*! (basically, as
> if on Earth you
> set your novel in France and never mentioned any other
> country) That'd work
> out OK, especially if you make it clear that the scope isn't
> the full
> planet but just a single country of area of it. 

Right. Though I do think one could mention other places (for example,
Paraguay) but you don't necessarily have to go on for pages about
linguistic diversity. Could be as simple as saying so-and-so is from some
distant place and talks with a thick accent. That would be enough to
clue the reader in to a difference in language.

> Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.

Padraic





Messages in this topic (46)

2.3. Re: Creating Dialects
Posted by: "Patrick Dunn" pwd...@gmail.com 
Date: Tue Oct 9, 2012 9:48 am ((PDT))

I think in fantasy and science fiction, there's such an emphasis lately on
world building that a lot of the story gets sacrificed.  It might be
blasphemy to say it on the conlang list, but you *don't have to invent a
language* for a fantasy novel.  Not even one single language.

And you can still have quite a good story.



On Tue, Oct 9, 2012 at 11:42 AM, Padraic Brown  wrote:

> --- On Tue, 10/9/12, Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets 
> wrote:
>
> > > Why can't Yemora have one language, with past versions of the same
> > > language? It's a fantasy world.
> >
> > Because the 1 planet = 1 culture = 1 language is a tired
> > outdated trope
> > that nobody buys anymore nowadays. In other words, it breaks
> > suspension of
> > disbelief. Star Trek and Star Wars get away with it because
> > they both
> > started when that trope was still considered OK, and the
> > weight of their
> > pasts outweighs the cringe-worthiness of that trope.
>
> Right. Also, the storylines in those shows / movies don't necessarily give
> us the full picture of any given planet. We see one kind of Klingon from
> Qonos and know about one kind of Klingon language -- but we aren't told
> how many different languages are actually spoken in their Empire. Belief
> can still be undispended.
>
> > But new works don't get such leeway.
>
> Depends on the scope of the work, too. A smaller focus can allow the
> author to get away it perhap

[conlang] Digest Number 8822

[conlang]

There are 15 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1.1. Re: Creating Dialects
From: Daniel Bowman
1.2. Re: Creating Dialects
From: Roger Mills
1.3. Re: Creating Dialects
From: Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
1.4. Re: Creating Dialects
From: Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
1.5. Re: Creating Dialects
From: Jörg Rhiemeier
1.6. Re: Creating Dialects
From: Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews

2a. Re: why don't velar obstruents spontaneously labialise?
From: Leonardo Castro
2b. Re: why don't velar obstruents spontaneously labialise?
From: Garth Wallace

3a. What's your favorite phoneme?
From: Zach Wellstood
3b. Re: What's your favorite phoneme?
From: Mechthild Czapp
3c. Re: What's your favorite phoneme?
From: Shair Ahmed
3d. Re: What's your favorite phoneme?
From: Arthaey Angosii
3e. Re: What's your favorite phoneme?
From: Patrick Dunn
3f. Re: What's your favorite phoneme?
From: Zach Wellstood
3g. Re: What's your favorite phoneme?
From: Arthaey Angosii


Messages

1.1. Re: Creating Dialects
Posted by: "Daniel Bowman" danny.c.bow...@gmail.com 
Date: Tue Oct 9, 2012 10:03 am ((PDT))

2012/10/9 Patrick Dunn 

> I think in fantasy and science fiction, there's such an emphasis lately on
> world building that a lot of the story gets sacrificed.  It might be
> blasphemy to say it on the conlang list, but you *don't have to invent a
> language* for a fantasy novel.  Not even one single language.
>
> And you can still have quite a good story.
>
>
I concur.
In fact, I would go even further-I'd rather have no language at all then a
poorly designed "language" with lots of apos'troph'es and pseudoelven
mellifluousness.
Give me a good language that doesn't detract from the story, but rather
adds to it (i.e. Dothraki in Game of Thrones) or just omit one entirely.
It doesn't hurt to develop a language for the backstory, even if you never
use it. Furthermore, I doubt Nicole will fall into the bad language trap
since she is clearly making a lot of effort to think about how languages on
her worlds will operate.

But @Nicole:  if making up the entire linguistic history of your worlds is
stressing you out and taking away from other things you want to work on,
then don't feel obligated to do it.





Messages in this topic (52)

1.2. Re: Creating Dialects
Posted by: "Roger Mills" romi...@yahoo.com 
Date: Tue Oct 9, 2012 10:39 am ((PDT))

Alex-- thanks for a very interesting reply that gives me much to think about 
!!  Especially the link to Rosenfelder's thing; I envy his ability to draw 
maps. Most of mine are already sort of fixed in stone, and I find it very 
difficult to do much with them, since unfortunately my present computer doesn't 
seem to have a good drawing program. I'll reply more later.

At the moment I have so many projects simmering on various burners (and 
frequently ignored) plus a constant-tiredness problem that the medicos don't 
seem to be able to fix, I just don't know if I have the energy/time to embark 
on a map drawing binge. Damn -(

--- On Tue, 10/9/12, Alex Fink <000...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Mon, 8 Oct 2012 10:13:43 -0700, Roger Mills  wrote:

>I am occasionally bothered by the fact that a planet somewhat larger than 
>Earth, albeit thinly populated, has only three linguistic families. Maybe the 
>low population (and low reproduction rates) has something to do with that.

That does feel very small, doesn't it.  But how deep are the families?  You 
name a figure of 1 years with I'm not sure what import; if the families are 
actually traçable back 1 years, that's close to twice the depth of PIE, so 
they could really be quite large and diverse (the level of our Earthly 
Nostratic?)  

Also, I ponder, if the Gwr were technologically advanced enough to knock 
themselves back in a blaze of nukes already 750 years ago, they may've had 
mature academic linguistics back then too.  If they had 750 years more 
properly-collected data than we present-day humans do, this could well improve 
the quality of their reconstructions -- though I guess the limiting factor for 
in-world linguists is moreso the availability of very old branches, than lack 
of depth on modern varieties.  So what ìs the state of historical linguistics 
on Cindu?

Relatedly, given that you mention the peopling of Yanatros: how much political 
history do you have worked out for Cindu, on a smaller scale than "Kash over 
here, Gwr over there"?  Presumably many of the sub-stocks have moved around, 
conquered others, split or gotten split over the mille

[conlang] Digest Number 8823

[conlang]

There are 15 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: What's your favorite phoneme?
From: Zach Wellstood
1b. Re: What's your favorite phoneme?
From: Amanda Babcock Furrow
1c. Re: What's your favorite phoneme?
From: yuri
1d. Re: What's your favorite phoneme?
From: Roger Mills
1e. Re: What's your favorite phoneme?
From: Sam Stutter
1f. Re: What's your favorite phoneme?
From: And Rosta

2.1. Re: Creating Dialects
From: Adam Walker
2.2. Re: Creating Dialects
From: Padraic Brown
2.3. Re: Creating Dialects
From: Daniel Prohaska
2.4. Re: Creating Dialects
From: George Corley
2.5. Re: Creating Dialects
From: Leonardo Castro
2.6. Re: Creating Dialects
From: Daniel Prohaska

3a. Re: why don't velar obstruents spontaneously labialise?
From: Adam Walker
3b. Re: why don't velar obstruents spontaneously labialise?
From: Charles W Brickner
3c. Re: why don't velar obstruents spontaneously labialise?
From: Leonardo Castro


Messages

1a. Re: What's your favorite phoneme?
Posted by: "Zach Wellstood" zwellst...@gmail.com 
Date: Tue Oct 9, 2012 1:05 pm ((PDT))

On Tue, Oct 9, 2012 at 4:01 PM, Arthaey Angosii  wrote:

> On Tue, Oct 9, 2012 at 12:56 PM, Arthaey Angosii 
> wrote:
> > Mine's /Z/, hands down. (It's so weird to have such a strong favorite!)
>
> I even like how the IPA character looks: ʒ. Isn't that pretty? ʒ. ;)
>
>
It does have a pretty interesting series of associations!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ezh_(letter)





Messages in this topic (13)

1b. Re: What's your favorite phoneme?
Posted by: "Amanda Babcock Furrow" la...@quandary.org 
Date: Tue Oct 9, 2012 1:53 pm ((PDT))

On Tue, Oct 09, 2012 at 03:40:21PM -0400, Zach Wellstood wrote:
> liyaá' łí'!
> I searched the archives and couldn't find anything similar, so I thought I
> ask: what's your favorite phoneme? Has this affected your conlang(s) at
> all?

I didn't think I had a favorite, but when I asked myself /Z/ came to mind
(hello Arthaey!), though it appeared as Cyrillic ж.

Unlike Asha'ille, none of my languages features /Z/ particularly heavily.
I suspect it's my favorite because it was my favorite sound in Russian.

tylakèhlpë'fö,
Amanda





Messages in this topic (13)

1c. Re: What's your favorite phoneme?
Posted by: "yuri" yur...@gmail.com 
Date: Tue Oct 9, 2012 2:43 pm ((PDT))

Any of the guttural sounds.
I like the feeling of smug superiority when monolinguistic anglophones
struggle to pronounce sounds that come easily to me.
I guess I'm shallow that way.

Yuri de Groot





Messages in this topic (13)

1d. Re: What's your favorite phoneme?
Posted by: "Roger Mills" romi...@yahoo.com 
Date: Tue Oct 9, 2012 3:04 pm ((PDT))

I've never really thought about this. But considering my 3 conlangs, I guess 
I'd have to say the palatals, [tS, dZ] and maybe the velar fric. [x].  I do 
like [Z], but use it only as an allophone is one (Prevli). I like to stick to 
things I can pronounce easily.Among the vowels, I tend to overuse [a], 
but also like [E, æ, O] and find barred-i (high central -round, I forget the 
CSX symbol) quite fascinating. I don't pronounce rounded things like ü or ö 
very well.

Gwr has the biggest _phoneme_ inventory; but Prevli has lots of allophones. 
Kash is pretty much WYSIWG.

I know Kash overuses [S] and [ñ], but it's too late to do anything about it 
:-(





Messages in this topic (13)

1e. Re: What's your favorite phoneme?
Posted by: "Sam Stutter" samjj...@gmail.com 
Date: Tue Oct 9, 2012 3:58 pm ((PDT))

My phone won't let me type my favourite phoneme, the "h" with a forward hook at 
the top of the ascending stroke and a backwards stroke on the bottom of the 
front offshoot - a combination of ʃ and x

That said, I do like pitch-accenting, scandiwegian-style. Can I claim that? I 
don't know how a phonemic / phonetic quality can be sexy, but pitch-accenting 
is definitely sexy.

Sam Stutter
samjj...@gmail.com
"No e na'l cu barri"

On 9 Oct 2012, at 23:04, Roger Mills  wrote:

> I've never really thought about this. But considering my 3 conlangs, I guess 
> I'd have to say the palatals, [tS, dZ] and maybe the velar fric. [x].  I do 
> like [Z], but use it only as an allophone is one (Prevli). I like to st

[conlang] Digest Number 8824

[conlang]

There are 15 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: What's your favorite phoneme?
From: Leonardo Castro
1b. Re: What's your favorite phoneme?
From: Brian Woodward
1c. Re: What's your favorite phoneme?
From: Douglas Koller
1d. Re: What's your favorite phoneme?
From: Jack Steiner
1e. Re: What's your favorite phoneme?
From: George Corley
1f. Re: What's your favorite phoneme?
From: Jack Steiner
1g. Re: What's your favorite phoneme?
From: Daniel Bowman
1h. Re: What's your favorite phoneme?
From: Leonardo Castro
1i. Re: What's your favorite phoneme?
From: Daniel Bowman
1j. Re: What's your favorite phoneme?
From: Alex Fink
1k. Re: What's your favorite phoneme?
From: Cosman246

2.1. Re: Creating Dialects
From: Padraic Brown
2.2. Re: Creating Dialects
From: Padraic Brown
2.3. Re: Creating Dialects
From: Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews

3a. Re: why don't velar obstruents spontaneously labialise?
From: Roger Mills


Messages

1a. Re: What's your favorite phoneme?
Posted by: "Leonardo Castro" leolucas1...@gmail.com 
Date: Tue Oct 9, 2012 5:17 pm ((PDT))

> 2012/10/9 And Rosta 

> Arthaey Angosii, On 09/10/2012 20:56:
>
>> On Tue, Oct 9, 2012 at 12:40 PM, Zach Wellstood
>>  wrote:
>>
>>> I searched the archives and couldn't find anything similar, so I thought
>>> I
>>> ask: what's your favorite phoneme? Has this affected your conlang(s) at
>>> all?
>>>
>>
>> Mine's /Z/, hands down. (It's so weird to have such a strong favorite!)
>>
>
It's weird enough to have a favorite phoneme...





Messages in this topic (24)

1b. Re: What's your favorite phoneme?
Posted by: "Brian Woodward" alarj...@gmail.com 
Date: Tue Oct 9, 2012 5:45 pm ((PDT))

I'm partial to the voiceless post-alveolar and pharyngeal fricatives.

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 9, 2012, at 14:40, Zach Wellstood  wrote:

> liyaá' łí'!
> I searched the archives and couldn't find anything similar, so I thought I
> ask: what's your favorite phoneme? Has this affected your conlang(s) at
> all?
> I opened my umbrella today and realized that I really like the sound of an
> umbrella opening, then I began thinking about phonemes (weird connections).
> I think I really like [tɬ] and it's fricative counterpart, and I also like
> [q] quite a lot, I can just never make it sound nice in sketches of
> potential conlangs. The day I learned how to articulate [tɬ] by accident
> was when I became inspired to utilize it in a conlang, which birthed my
> current one! I've been working on it for 2 years, so it was a pretty
> powerful revelation!
> 
> Zach





Messages in this topic (24)

1c. Re: What's your favorite phoneme?
Posted by: "Douglas Koller" douglaskol...@hotmail.com 
Date: Tue Oct 9, 2012 5:53 pm ((PDT))


> Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2012 01:03:00 +0100
> From: and.ro...@gmail.com
> Subject: Re: What's your favorite phoneme?
> To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu

> Arthaey Angosii, On 09/10/2012 20:56:
> > On Tue, Oct 9, 2012 at 12:40 PM, Zach Wellstood  
> > wrote:
> >> I searched the archives and couldn't find anything similar, so I thought I
> >> ask: what's your favorite phoneme? Has this affected your conlang(s) at
> >> all?

> > Mine's /Z/, hands down. (It's so weird to have such a strong favorite!)

> Kids, the question should be "What's your favourite *phone*".

> Shair Ahmed, On 09/10/2012 20:48:
> > /�/ is also quite nice.
> 
> I admire your freaky taste! I bet there are dozens of us favour [Z] but none 
> but you with a soft spot for [�]!

[2]/[9] and [y]/[Y] are all over the place. Love 'em. [C]/[s\], hurrah. 
[j\]/[z\] were a bit of a late comer to the party, as attested in the 
orthography, but are making up for lost time.

And apologies, but [T] and [D] are a guilty conlanging pleasure. :)

Kou   



Messages in this topic (24)

1d. Re: What's your favorite phoneme?
Posted by: "Jack Steiner" darktomato...@hotmail.com 
Date: Tue Oct 9, 2012 5:55 pm ((PDT))




> Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2012 15:40:21 -0400
> From: zwellst...@gmail.com
> Subject: What's your favorite phoneme?
> To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
> 
> liyaá' łí'

[conlang] Digest Number 8825

[conlang]

There are 15 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1.1. Re: What's your favorite phoneme?
From: Alex Fink
1.2. Re: What's your favorite phoneme?
From: Patrick Dunn
1.3. Re: What's your favorite phoneme?
From: John Erickson
1.4. Re: What's your favorite phoneme?
From: R A Brown
1.5. Re: What's your favorite phoneme?
From: Leonardo Castro
1.6. Re: What's your favorite phoneme?
From: Allison Swenson
1.7. Re: What's your favorite phoneme?
From: Daniel Bowman
1.8. Re: What's your favorite phoneme?
From: Zach Wellstood
1.9. Re: What's your favorite phoneme?
From: Allison Swenson
1.10. Re: What's your favorite phoneme?
From: Daniel Bowman
1.11. Re: What's your favorite phoneme?
From: Leonardo Castro
1.12. Re: What's your favorite phoneme?
From: Daniel Bowman

2a. why don't velar obstruents spontaneously labialise?
From: Serafín Finrij
2b. Re: why don't velar obstruents spontaneously labialise?
From: Matthew Boutilier
2c. Re: why don't velar obstruents spontaneously labialise?
From: Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets


Messages

1.1. Re: What's your favorite phoneme?
Posted by: "Alex Fink" 000...@gmail.com 
Date: Tue Oct 9, 2012 9:23 pm ((PDT))

On Wed, 10 Oct 2012 01:03:00 +0100, And Rosta  wrote:

>My favourite phones are [Z] and [E]. Both have a pinky orange colour, [E] more 
>like flame and [Z] velvet texture (like [D], which is black) with maybe more 
>of a rusty or raspberry-blonde hue.

I would entirely relish reading an annotated IPA chart if you ever happened to 
prepare one!

>Shair Ahmed, On 09/10/2012 20:48:
>> /ħ/ is also quite nice.
>
>I admire your freaky taste! I bet there are dozens of us favour [Z] but none 
>but you with a soft spot for [ħ]!

Looks like I'm also an outlier among us here -- [Z] scores badly on both my 
manner- and place-tastes, and my favourites ([k], [r]?, [a]) are comparatively 
everyday.

Alex





Messages in this topic (36)

1.2. Re: What's your favorite phoneme?
Posted by: "Patrick Dunn" pwd...@gmail.com 
Date: Tue Oct 9, 2012 9:36 pm ((PDT))

On Tue, Oct 9, 2012 at 11:23 PM, Alex Fink <000...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, 10 Oct 2012 01:03:00 +0100, And Rosta  wrote:
>
> >My favourite phones are [Z] and [E]. Both have a pinky orange colour, [E]
> more like flame and [Z] velvet texture (like [D], which is black) with
> maybe more of a rusty or raspberry-blonde hue.
>
> I would entirely relish reading an annotated IPA chart if you ever
> happened to prepare one!
>

Hell yeah!  I'd love to see that.

I'm mildly synesthetic with entire languages.  They have flavors, and
that's not a metaphor.  I can actually taste them very, very faintly.
 Which is sometimes a bit annoying, because some languages don't taste very
good (French, for example, I can read okay [actually, I can read it very
badly, but I mean, without discomfort] but if I try to speak it I get a
faint musty gummy taste in my mouth -- well, in my mind, actually, but my
mind convinces me it's in my mouth).

It seems the better I know a language, the less flavor it has, though.
 Spanish at this point is pretty much flavorless. And the more I learn, the
more the flavor changes.  Latin tastes faintly of dusty pennies at this
point (clearly, that's an unconscious metaphoric association), and now that
my Greek has improved well enough that I can read it haltingly, it tastes
less like wine and more like -- hard to describe.  A yellow grape?  Pretty
tasty, actually.

My short attempt to learn Chinese ended partially because I was frustrated
by being perpetually illiterate and partially by the absolutely *nasty*
taste it left in my mouth.





Messages in this topic (36)

1.3. Re: What's your favorite phoneme?
Posted by: "John Erickson" john.erickson.so...@gmail.com 
Date: Tue Oct 9, 2012 11:06 pm ((PDT))

> And apologies, but [T] and [D] are a guilty conlanging pleasure. :)

[T] is my favorite. And thorn is my favorite writen letter. I used to not like 
[x] but it's growing on me.





Messages in this topic (36)

1.4. Re: What's your favorite phoneme?
Posted by: "R A Brown" r...@carolandray.plus.com 
Date: Wed Oct 10, 2012 2:54 am ((PDT))

On 10/10/2012 01:03, And Rosta wrote:
> Arthaey Angosii, On 09/10/2012 20:56:
>> On Tue, Oct 9, 2012 at 12:40 PM, Zach Wellstood
>> wrote:
>>> I searched the archives and couldn't

[conlang] Digest Number 8826

[conlang]

; sounds: some people just can't do it, unless
> > there is some kind of professional help and training.
> >
>
> But aren't there some native Spanish speakers who have trouble, or am I
> mistaken?
>





Messages in this topic (43)

1.6. Re: What's your favorite phoneme?
Posted by: "Roger Mills" romi...@yahoo.com 
Date: Wed Oct 10, 2012 9:05 am ((PDT))

> 2012/10/10 Allison Swenson 
>> I thought I didn't have a favorite one, but the mention of the uvular
trill
>> decided me--I like the alveolar trill. My personal experience with it
>> starts with Spanish, and I just find it so fun to say! An added bonus is
>> that I get to feel superior to my sister, who despite extensive exposure
to
>> Spanish and studying the language for several years, simply cannot manage
>> it at all. :)


It tends to give me trouble too; I really have to concentrate on Span. initial 
/r/ and medial /rr/. But they do get easier with practice/usage.  The single 
tap is easy.(Same in Italian.)

I encountered an area in provincial Argentina where initial /r/ and /-rr-/ are 
pronounced with a lot of friction; an Argentine friend who knew phonetics said 
it was the same as the Czech (written) "rz" as in _Dvorzak_. (I think the z 
ought to have a hacek.)  Turns out it' s real provincialism, as comedians in 
the cities make fun of it. "Mamá.¿qué es barro?" --"Agua con tierra."

/r/ in Kash can be either a flap or (in elegant speech) a trill. Pretty much 
the same rule in Indonesian.





Messages in this topic (43)

1.7. Re: What's your favorite phoneme?
Posted by: "Leonardo Castro" leolucas1...@gmail.com 
Date: Wed Oct 10, 2012 9:10 am ((PDT))

2012/10/10 Roger Mills 

>
> I encountered an area in provincial Argentina where initial /r/ and /-rr-/
> are pronounced with a lot of friction; an Argentine friend who knew


 In my Brazilian Portuguese dialect, any non-intervocalic "r" is pronounced
as /h/. Maybe, it's the result of native people trying to pronounce trills.





Messages in this topic (43)


2.1. Re: Creating Dialects
Posted by: "David McCann" da...@polymathy.plus.com 
Date: Wed Oct 10, 2012 8:45 am ((PDT))

On Tue, 9 Oct 2012 15:23:36 -0500
Adam Walker  wrote:
> Okay, if I have understood you, which is rarely certain with such
> short posts, this is just plain weird.  A country that has cities,
> but no villages?  I can see a country that consists of a single city
> with all teh surrounding territory belonging to some other country
> (city-states, free cities and the like), but if you have territory
> enough for several cities, you *will* have villages and far more of
> them than you have cities.

No. Your model of human geography is far too Anglocentric. In Ireland,
people originally lived on their farms, not in villages like the
English. And think of the Maya, practicing shifting agriculture, where
the city was a centre of administration and religion. If they had
developed more advanced technology, that would have been concentrated
in the cities. The city is a product of civilisation, but the village
of cultural choice.





Messages in this topic (63)

2.2. Re: Creating Dialects
Posted by: "Adam Walker" carra...@gmail.com 
Date: Wed Oct 10, 2012 9:02 am ((PDT))

On Wed, Oct 10, 2012 at 10:45 AM, David McCann wrote:

> On Tue, 9 Oct 2012 15:23:36 -0500
> Adam Walker  wrote:
> > Okay, if I have understood you, which is rarely certain with such
> > short posts, this is just plain weird.  A country that has cities,
> > but no villages?  I can see a country that consists of a single city
> > with all teh surrounding territory belonging to some other country
> > (city-states, free cities and the like), but if you have territory
> > enough for several cities, you *will* have villages and far more of
> > them than you have cities.
>
> No. Your model of human geography is far too Anglocentric. In Ireland,
> people originally lived on their farms, not in villages like the
> English. And think of the Maya, practicing shifting agriculture, where
> the city was a centre of administration and religion. If they had
> developed more advanced technology, that would have been concentrated
> in the cities. The city is a product of civilisation, but the village
> of cultural choice.
>

I don't think that negates any of w

[conlang] Digest Number 8827

[conlang]

gt; English. And think of the Maya, practicing shifting agriculture, where
>> the city was a centre of administration and religion. If they had
>> developed more advanced technology, that would have been concentrated
>> in the cities. The city is a product of civilisation, but the village
>> of cultural choice.
>> 
> 
> I don't think that negates any of what I said, unless you are saying that
> the Irish and the Maya had no settlements of intermediate size between
> single family homesteads and major cities.  And I certainly don't think my
> model is "anglocentric" since it is true all over Africa (bajillions of
> villages, a fair number of medium-sized cities and a few HUMONGOUS
> metropolises) and also in Asia, whether we're talking Middle East, South
> Asia or Far East.
> 
> Adam





Messages in this topic (65)

1.2. Re: Creating Dialects
Posted by: "Daniel Bowman" danny.c.bow...@gmail.com 
Date: Wed Oct 10, 2012 11:57 am ((PDT))

> The reason I use the word "planned" is because a city is usually the
> village which has done the best of all the other villages and has the best
> communications and best environment. The tribe which originally owned that
> piece of land did not set out to build a city, they were simple farmers or
> fishermen who had united for whatever reason. If a location has been chosen
> for a city is presupposes an organisational civilisation came along and
> surveyed a selection of locations and, having the use of high-speed
> transport that allows all products to reach the city in much less than half
> a day, forbade anyone from building within half-a-mile of any other
> building. A city is something which consumes natural resources in order to
> produce goods - how does a city gain its resources without people living
> outside it?
>
>
 I'm reminded of the pueblos in the American southwest, where farming land
(and more importantly, water) is concentrated in narrow bands along rivers.
 There, you get large adobe structures housing the people, and the fields
beyond the pueblo supplying the food.  While these are certainly not
"cities" as we'd describe them, they are much more compact than villages.


If the majority of the land is uninhabitable, but certain limited areas are
extremely agriculturally productive, you might have a situation where large
populations are in a small area, so long as the fields are productive and
within walking distance.  Maybe the fields are farmed during the summer and
the farmers live in temporary shelters, and they bring the harvest back to
the cities in winter, for protection from the elements and/or marauding
outsiders?





Messages in this topic (65)


2.1. Re: What's your favorite phoneme?
Posted by: "Roger Mills" romi...@yahoo.com 
Date: Wed Oct 10, 2012 12:52 pm ((PDT))

--- On Wed, 10/10/12, Leonardo Castro  wrote:
In my Brazilian Portuguese dialect, any non-intervocalic "r" is pronounced
as /h/. Maybe, it's the result of native people trying to pronounce trills.
==

In Rio I heard of lot of [x] for /r/. My first taxi from the airport, I said 
"Hotel Serrador" rolling the -rr-; the driver answered "[sexador, tem 
xeserva?)" I don't recall whether the other /r/s were also [x], but _sexado( ) 
and xese( )va_ sure got my attention!!! That may be a peculiarity of a certain 
register in Rio, as I didn't hear it all that much more.





Messages in this topic (50)

2.2. Re: What's your favorite phoneme?
Posted by: "taliesin the storyteller" taliesin-conl...@nvg.org 
Date: Wed Oct 10, 2012 12:55 pm ((PDT))

On 2012-10-09 21:40, Zach Wellstood wrote:
> what's your favorite phoneme? Has this affected your conlang(s) at all?

Voiceless alveolar trill. Not used in any of my conlangs. Just try it, 
sorta feels like your mouth is shaking like a Harley motorcycle engine, 
if you force the air out hard enough.


t.





Messages in this topic (50)

2.3. Re: What's your favorite phoneme?
Posted by: "Charles W Brickner" tepeyach...@embarqmail.com 
Date: Wed Oct 10, 2012 1:30 pm ((PDT))

-Original Message-
From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:conl...@listserv.brown.edu] On Behalf 
Of taliesin the storyteller
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2012 3:56 PM
To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
Subject: Re: What's your favorite phoneme?

On 2012-10-09 21:40, Zach W

[conlang] Digest Number 8828

[conlang]

lar_approximant> [ɹ] in the
same position.

In areas where ⟨r⟨ at the end of a word would be a voiceless fricative, the
tendency in colloquial speech is to pronounce this sound very lightly, or
omit it entirely. Some speakers may omit it entirely in verb infinitives (*
amar* "to love", *comer* "to eat", *dormir* "to sleep") but pronounce it
lightly in some other words ending in ⟨r⟨ (*mar* "sea", *mulher* "woman", *
amor* "love"). This tendency also occurs in some African countries; but
speakers in Rio often resist the tendency, pronouncing a strong fricative
[x] or [χ] at the end of such words.

The voiceless fricative may be partly or fully voiced if it occurs directly
before a voiced sound, especially in its weakest form of [h], which is
normally voiced to [ɦ]. For example, a speaker whose ⟨rr⟩ sounds like
[h]will often pronounce
*surdo* "deaf" as [ˈsuɦdu] or even [ˈsuɦudu], with a very slight epenthetic
vowel that mimics the preceding vowel."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guttural_R





Messages in this topic (55)

1.2. Re: What's your favorite phoneme?
Posted by: "David Gràcia Llobet" gruay.d...@gmail.com 
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2012 3:33 am ((PDT))

My favorite phoneme is by far the voiceless alveolo-palatal sibilant (ʃ).
I'm catalan and catalan uses ʃ and since I learned to do it (it was 
hard), it's been my favorite phoneme





Messages in this topic (55)

1.3. Re: What's your favorite phoneme?
Posted by: "Nikolay Ivankov" lukevil...@gmail.com 
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2012 4:49 am ((PDT))

Clicks and stops. Particularly [p!], the only consonant in Janjarin
alongsige with the glottal stop.

On Tue, Oct 9, 2012 at 9:40 PM, Zach Wellstood  wrote:

> liyaá' łí'!
> I searched the archives and couldn't find anything similar, so I thought I
> ask: what's your favorite phoneme? Has this affected your conlang(s) at
> all?
> I opened my umbrella today and realized that I really like the sound of an
> umbrella opening, then I began thinking about phonemes (weird connections).
> I think I really like [tɬ] and it's fricative counterpart, and I also like
> [q] quite a lot, I can just never make it sound nice in sketches of
> potential conlangs. The day I learned how to articulate [tɬ] by accident
> was when I became inspired to utilize it in a conlang, which birthed my
> current one! I've been working on it for 2 years, so it was a pretty
> powerful revelation!
>
> Zach
>





Messages in this topic (55)

1.4. Re: What's your favorite phoneme?
Posted by: "Roger Mills" romi...@yahoo.com 
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2012 7:47 am ((PDT))

Very, very interesting post, Leonardo.. I have to confess that when I 
visited Brazil, I did not speak the language, even though I had a nodding 
acquaintance with it. (Sim, não, falar-- as in "não falo portugués") Mainly I 
spoke Spanish, and got by reasonably well, although many of the professional 
people I was dealing with tended to reply to me in English ;-))) (and I always 
had the impression they were slightly annoyed at my use of Spanish).

The map of Brazilian dialect areas is fascinating; I plan to investigate that 
website more fully, as I'm unfamiliar with the dialect situation in Portugal. I 
love the Romance languages, even though I only know two well (Span. and 
Italian), and am always eager to learn more.

For the record, I loved the month or so I spent in Brazil back in 1967 (São 
Paulo, Rio, Brasilia, back to Rio); it's a truly wonderful and beautiful 
country. I'd planned to visit some of the northern and northeast cities too, 
but it was the end of a lengthy trip and I'd become tired of packing and 
flying, so I cut the trip short and returned to the US (First class on Varig, 
very luxurious; at dinner they served a vintage 1929 Spanish wine that I'd 
heard of, and was truly impressed.). I found the Brazilian people much more 
friendly than those in the Spanish speaking countries I'd visited. And also 
much more physically attractive; must be the unique mixture of 
European+native+African that exists there. Even the food was more interesting; 
I'd grown tired of steak every day in Argentina (even though it was always 
delicious) :-))

An interesting experience: I developed a bad back in cold and rainy Buenos 
Aires; when I got to São Paulo, the American consulate referred me to a clinic; 
I went there every day for about 10 days for therapy (heat and exercises); the 
therapist was a young man of Japanese ancestry and I picked up quite a bit of 
Portuguese from him. During the heat treatmen

[conlang] Digest Number 8829

[conlang]

There are 15 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1.1. Re: What's your favorite phoneme?
From: Zach Wellstood

2a. Yardish and Dialects
From: Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
2b. Re: Yardish and Dialects
From: Billy J.B.
2c. Re: Yardish and Dialects
From: Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
2d. Re: Yardish and Dialects
From: Patrick Dunn
2e. Re: Yardish and Dialects
From: Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
2f. Re: Yardish and Dialects
From: Patrick Dunn
2g. Re: Yardish and Dialects
From: Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
2h. Re: Yardish and Dialects
From: Padraic Brown

3a. "Untranslatable words"
From: Roger Mills
3b. Re: "Untranslatable words"
From: Leonardo Castro
3c. Re: "Untranslatable words"
From: Daniel Bowman
3d. Re: "Untranslatable words"
From: Adam Walker
3e. Re: "Untranslatable words"
From: Douglas Koller
3f. Re: "Untranslatable words"
From: MorphemeAddict


Messages

1.1. Re: What's your favorite phoneme?
Posted by: "Zach Wellstood" zwellst...@gmail.com 
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2012 10:53 am ((PDT))

On Oct 11, 2012 12:29 PM, "Jörg Rhiemeier"  wrote:
>
> Hallo conlangers!
>
> On Wednesday 10 October 2012 23:33:13 Dirk Elzinga wrote:
>
> > I'm partial to [ɨ] and [ø˞] (both found in White Mesa Ute, my current
> > professional interest).
>
> [ø˞] occurs in a conlang sketch of mine: Madeirese, a descendant
> of Old Albic.
>
> > I don't usually think this way about language, though
>
> Nor do I.
>
> >   --it's like asking
> > about my favorite part of speech. I'm more interested in what happens to
> > sounds in a system.
>
> Right.

I agree. I like schwa and /a/ if they're rhotic, and I like phonological
changes to pitch and tone. At the same time, I'm partial to individual
phone(eme?)s.

>
> --
> ... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
> http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
> "Bêsel asa Éam, a Éam atha cvanthal a cvanth atha Éamal." - SiM 1:1





Messages in this topic (56)


2a. Yardish and Dialects
Posted by: "Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews" goldyemo...@gmail.com 
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2012 1:50 pm ((PDT))

Can eight of Yemora's countries have a dialect of Yardish? Maybe the first 
country speaks the original form.
Emerging poet
Pen Name Mellissa Green
Budding novelist
tweet me



GreenNovelist

blog


www.theworldofyemora.wordpress.com





Messages in this topic (8)

2b. Re: Yardish and Dialects
Posted by: "Billy J.B." ad...@caudimordax.org 
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2012 2:06 pm ((PDT))

Sounds perfectly plausible, those dialects could with time "split up"
into several different standardised languages and bam, instant
language family!


On 11 October 2012 22:48, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
 wrote:
> Can eight of Yemora's countries have a dialect of Yardish? Maybe the first 
> country speaks the original form.
> Emerging poet
> Pen Name Mellissa Green
> Budding novelist
> tweet me
>
>
>
> GreenNovelist
>
> blog
>
>
> www.theworldofyemora.wordpress.com





Messages in this topic (8)

2c. Re: Yardish and Dialects
Posted by: "Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews" goldyemo...@gmail.com 
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2012 2:10 pm ((PDT))

What's a language family?
Emerging poet
Pen Name Mellissa Green
Budding novelist
tweet me



GreenNovelist

blog


www.theworldofyemora.wordpress.com


- Original Message - 
From: "Billy J.B." 
To: 
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2012 5:05 PM
Subject: Re: Yardish and Dialects


> Sounds perfectly plausible, those dialects could with time "split up"
> into several different standardised languages and bam, instant
> language family!
>
>
> On 11 October 2012 22:48, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
>  wrote:
>> Can eight of Yemora's countries have a dialect of Yardish? Maybe the 
>> first country speaks the original form.
>> Emerging poet
>> Pen Name Mellissa Green
>> Budding novelist
>> tweet me
>>
>>
>>
>> GreenNovelist
>>
>> blog
>>
>>
>> www.theworldofyemora.wordpress.com 





Messages in this topic (8)

2d. Re: Yardish and Dialects
Posted by: &

[conlang] Digest Number 8830

[conlang]

There are 15 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1.1. Re: What's your favorite phoneme?
From: Christian Thalmann
1.2. Re: What's your favorite phoneme?
From: Iuhan Culmærija
1.3. Re: What's your favorite phoneme?
From: James Campbell
1.4. Re: What's your favorite phoneme?
From: Douglas Koller
1.5. Re: What's your favorite phoneme?
From: R A Brown
1.6. Re: What's your favorite phoneme?
From: Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets
1.7. Re: What's your favorite phoneme?
From: Douglas Koller
1.8. Re: What's your favorite phoneme?
From: Zach Wellstood
1.9. Re: What's your favorite phoneme?
From: BPJ
1.10. Re: What's your favorite phoneme?
From: BPJ
1.11. Re: What's your favorite phoneme?
From: James Campbell

2a. Re: "Untranslatable words"
From: Claude Almansi

3a. Re: Yardish and Dialects
From: Daniel Prohaska
3b. Re: Yardish and Dialects
From: Nikolay Ivankov
3c. Re: Yardish and Dialects
From: Patrick Dunn


Messages

1.1. Re: What's your favorite phoneme?
Posted by: "Christian Thalmann" thalm...@uva.nl 
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2012 10:06 pm ((PDT))

I'm afraid I'll have to join the chorus on [Z]. That's just got to be the 
sexiest consonant out there. Others that I like well include [l] and [m]. In 
terms of more exotic choices, I'm rather fond of the Czech palatalized [r], in 
particular since it's apparently considered very hard to pronounce (I find it 
rather intuitive).

In terms of vowels, I agree with whoever mentioned the central "a" between [a] 
and [A], as it appears in German -- funny that we should both have such a clear 
preference for just an underprivleged sound!  ;o)  I also like [e] and [i].

In an earlier discussion of this type (on CONLANG, I believe?), I came up with 
a "mantra of mellifluousness" that went [,o:Za'milla,jEndra'Ze:ni], which I 
later cast into the Obrenje phrase |o ze amille a jende razeni| "May the 
serenity calm and cleanse me."

I find ejectives cool and interesting, but not necessarily pretty. I recently 
added them to Oro Mpaa to break the degeneracy between simple and geminate 
stops in phrase-initial positions, e.g. |ttou| /ttuw/ [t>o].

I don't find the concept of having favorite phones strange at all.  You might 
as well find it weird that people have favorite colors, names, or fonts.





Messages in this topic (67)

1.2. Re: What's your favorite phoneme?
Posted by: "Iuhan Culmærija" culm...@gmail.com 
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2012 10:27 pm ((PDT))

2012/10/12 Christian Thalmann 

> I'm afraid I'll have to join the chorus on [Z]. That's just got to be the
> sexiest consonant out there. Others that I like well include [l] and [m].
> In terms of more exotic choices, I'm rather fond of the Czech palatalized
> [r], in particular since it's apparently considered very hard to pronounce
> (I find it rather intuitive).
>
>
The only phone(eme) I like less than [Z] is [dZ]. Uhg! "Judge" is
undoubtedly my least favourite word in any language.
I find this odd because generally I quite like fricatives: they're a lot
more phonæsthetically pleasing than stops/plosives!


> In terms of vowels, I agree with whoever mentioned the central "a" between
> [a] and [A], as it appears in German -- funny that we should both have such
> a clear preference for just an underprivleged sound!  ;o)  I also like [e]
> and [i].
>
>
I like [a:] and [A:], but I find that they sound a bit weird when short.
 is my absolute favourite.


> In an earlier discussion of this type (on CONLANG, I believe?), I came up
> with a "mantra of mellifluousness" that went [,o:Za'milla,jEndra'Ze:ni],
> which I later cast into the Obrenje phrase |o ze amille a jende razeni|
> "May the serenity calm and cleanse me."
>
> I find ejectives cool and interesting, but not necessarily pretty. I
> recently added them to Oro Mpaa to break the degeneracy between simple and
> geminate stops in phrase-initial positions, e.g. |ttou| /ttuw/ [t>o].
>
> I don't find the concept of having favorite phones strange at all.  You
> might as well find it weird that people have favorite colors, names, or
> fonts.
>





Messages in this topic (67)

1.3. Re: What's your favorite phoneme?
Posted by: "James Campbell" ja...@zolid.com 
Date: Fri Oct 12, 2012 12:28 am ((PDT))

For me, /R/ is very pleasing, /ç/ has always had a fascination since I started

[conlang] Digest Number 8831

[conlang]

ore friendly
> than those in the Spanish speaking countries I'd visited. And also much
> more physically attractive; must be the unique mixture of
> European+native+African that exists there.


Besides, Brazilian women are probably the most concerned about make up,
cosmetics and clothes.


> Even the food was more interesting; I'd grown tired of steak every day in
> Argentina (even though it was always delicious) :-))
>

Have you tried the "mate" drink (know as "chimarrão" in Brazil).
Brazilian South Region (states RS, SC and PR) has some similarities with
Argentina.


> An interesting experience: I developed a bad back in cold and rainy Buenos
> Aires; when I got to São Paulo, the American consulate referred me to a
> clinic; I went there every day for about 10 days for therapy (heat and
> exercises); the therapist was a young man of Japanese ancestry and I picked
> up quite a bit of Portuguese from him. During the heat treatments, he would
> often ask "Demais quente?" [de'maIS 'kEntSi] which I quickly figured


Are you sure that it wasn't "Quente demais?" ?


> out One day, leaving the clinic, I was chatting (in Spanish) with the
> young women at the front desk and used the Span. word "muchacha" which for
> some reason sent them into gales of laughterI never understood why.
> Is "muchacha" just considered a funny word (since the pronunciation is so
> totally un-Portuguese), or does it perhaps have some naughty meaning that I
> was unaware of?
>

I don't really know why, but I do find that this word has a kind of funny
sound. It's sometimes used in Brazil, but only in informal contexts. I
think that it sounds stereotypically Mexican or something, but I'm not sure
if it would apply to that time in that group in that context. Take a look
at this lyrics and videoclip:

http://letras.mus.br/chico-buarque/85981/





Messages in this topic (68)






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[conlang] Digest Number 8832

[conlang]

ct - my imagination
> turns to mining or some penal colony - *and* the entirety of the land is
> uninhabitable - again, thinking about Siberian gulags here - you're going
> to have people taking advantage of the ability to farm. Then you're going
> to have people who dislike city life and prefer to live among trees and
> fields and stuff.
>
> If the populace are native, then presumably they've grown out of earlier
> civilisations - presumably there were peripatetic tribes in the country,
> then small farming settlements, perhaps a gentry / chiefs / whatever ruling
> from their own private forts / palaces / bigger tent, then market towns,
> etc. If the land was colonised you'll have the original "winners" on their
> ranches / plantations / trading posts who form the nuclei of small
> settlements.
>
> Even in really small places, like Liechtenstein, you have villages vs
> towns. The thing about settlements which are in places which are
> uninhabitable is that the populace is either rarely there (places where
> transient fishing societies meet during the long dark of the polar winter)
> or is only temporarily there (desert mining towns which only exist until
> all the ore is dug up, before the miners all move to a new site).
>
> The reason I use the word "planned" is because a city is usually the
> village which has done the best of all the other villages and has the best
> communications and best environment. The tribe which originally owned that
> piece of land did not set out to build a city, they were simple farmers or
> fishermen who had united for whatever reason. If a location has been chosen
> for a city is presupposes an organisational civilisation came along and
> surveyed a selection of locations and, having the use of high-speed
> transport that allows all products to reach the city in much less than half
> a day, forbade anyone from building within half-a-mile of any other
> building. A city is something which consumes natural resources in order to
> produce goods - how does a city gain its resources without people living
> outside it?
>
> Sam Stutter
> samjj...@gmail.com
> "No e na'l cu barri"
>
>
>
>
> On 10 Oct 2012, at 17:02, Adam Walker  wrote:
>
> > On Wed, Oct 10, 2012 at 10:45 AM, David McCann  >wrote:
> >
> >> On Tue, 9 Oct 2012 15:23:36 -0500
> >> Adam Walker  wrote:
> >>> Okay, if I have understood you, which is rarely certain with such
> >>> short posts, this is just plain weird.  A country that has cities,
> >>> but no villages?  I can see a country that consists of a single city
> >>> with all teh surrounding territory belonging to some other country
> >>> (city-states, free cities and the like), but if you have territory
> >>> enough for several cities, you *will* have villages and far more of
> >>> them than you have cities.
> >>
> >> No. Your model of human geography is far too Anglocentric. In Ireland,
> >> people originally lived on their farms, not in villages like the
> >> English. And think of the Maya, practicing shifting agriculture, where
> >> the city was a centre of administration and religion. If they had
> >> developed more advanced technology, that would have been concentrated
> >> in the cities. The city is a product of civilisation, but the village
> >> of cultural choice.
> >>
> >
> > I don't think that negates any of what I said, unless you are saying that
> > the Irish and the Maya had no settlements of intermediate size between
> > single family homesteads and major cities.  And I certainly don't think
> my
> > model is "anglocentric" since it is true all over Africa (bajillions of
> > villages, a fair number of medium-sized cities and a few HUMONGOUS
> > metropolises) and also in Asia, whether we're talking Middle East, South
> > Asia or Far East.
> >
> > Adam
>





Messages in this topic (66)






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[conlang] Digest Number 8833

[conlang]

t
>> communications and best environment. The tribe which originally owned 
>> that
>> piece of land did not set out to build a city, they were simple farmers 
>> or
>> fishermen who had united for whatever reason. If a location has been 
>> chosen
>> for a city is presupposes an organisational civilisation came along and
>> surveyed a selection of locations and, having the use of high-speed
>> transport that allows all products to reach the city in much less than 
>> half
>> a day, forbade anyone from building within half-a-mile of any other
>> building. A city is something which consumes natural resources in order 
>> to
>> produce goods - how does a city gain its resources without people living
>> outside it?
>>
>> Sam Stutter
>> samjj...@gmail.com
>> "No e na'l cu barri"
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 10 Oct 2012, at 17:02, Adam Walker  wrote:
>>
>> > On Wed, Oct 10, 2012 at 10:45 AM, David McCann 
>> > > >wrote:
>> >
>> >> On Tue, 9 Oct 2012 15:23:36 -0500
>> >> Adam Walker  wrote:
>> >>> Okay, if I have understood you, which is rarely certain with such
>> >>> short posts, this is just plain weird.  A country that has cities,
>> >>> but no villages?  I can see a country that consists of a single city
>> >>> with all teh surrounding territory belonging to some other country
>> >>> (city-states, free cities and the like), but if you have territory
>> >>> enough for several cities, you *will* have villages and far more of
>> >>> them than you have cities.
>> >>
>> >> No. Your model of human geography is far too Anglocentric. In Ireland,
>> >> people originally lived on their farms, not in villages like the
>> >> English. And think of the Maya, practicing shifting agriculture, where
>> >> the city was a centre of administration and religion. If they had
>> >> developed more advanced technology, that would have been concentrated
>> >> in the cities. The city is a product of civilisation, but the village
>> >> of cultural choice.
>> >>
>> >
>> > I don't think that negates any of what I said, unless you are saying 
>> > that
>> > the Irish and the Maya had no settlements of intermediate size between
>> > single family homesteads and major cities.  And I certainly don't think
>> my
>> > model is "anglocentric" since it is true all over Africa (bajillions of
>> > villages, a fair number of medium-sized cities and a few HUMONGOUS
>> > metropolises) and also in Asia, whether we're talking Middle East, 
>> > South
>> > Asia or Far East.
>> >
>> > Adam
>>
> 





Messages in this topic (73)

1.2. Re: Creating Dialects
Posted by: "Sam Stutter" samjj...@gmail.com 
Date: Fri Oct 12, 2012 3:32 pm ((PDT))

This is starting to go into conworlding territory, so stop me if I'm going too 
OT.

How long has Earth been trading with your society? You're going to have Earth 
businessmen, Earth military, Earth government officials and Earth tourists 
descending pretty soon after trade links have been established. They'll bring 
with them their aircraft and computers and medicine and agricultural science. 
Pretty soon the natives are going to be wondering why they can't have those 
things. They're going to want to imitate these new rich, powerful and handsome 
visitors. If they're going to trade then they're going to be in serious trouble 
if they don't shape up. If they throw away their old small-scale tin mining and 
buy some diggers and go hunting for Gadolinium then they're in with a chance of 
profiting before the Earth big businesses move in and start tearing the planet 
up, *Avatar* style. If they use fertilisers, GM-crops and tractors, the act of 
growing food will be much easier, more profitable and improve the lot of 
everyone around.

Genuine question here - how long before the natives start adopting modern 
farming practices, start arming themselves with modern weapons and start trying 
to ape modern culture? A few years? A decade or two? Assuming that their 
visitors are benign and that they survive the flood of new diseases they will 
be subject to, how long before pristine Yardish culture will be twisted into 
something new? 

Actually, I've been considering NaNoWriMo and this has given me an idea - that 
new hybrid culture which emerges when a bog-standard fantasy epic is annexed by 
the C21st - a bit 

[conlang] Digest Number 8834

[conlang]

n.
[WELSH PROVERB]





Messages in this topic (86)

2.2. Re: Phonetics, phonemics and Chinese (was: What's your favorite phon
Posted by: "George Corley" gacor...@gmail.com 
Date: Sat Oct 13, 2012 8:55 am ((PDT))

On Sat, Oct 13, 2012 at 10:00 AM, R A Brown wrote:

>
>  It's possible to use the [] brackets as narrowly or
>> broadly as you like.
>>
>
> It is.  When giving phonetic equivalents in Bax I used []
> with the proviso that this should not be taken too narrowly,
> because a purely phonemic transcription is not possible
> (e.g. both /ki/ and /ti/ were pronounced [ci]). I notice
> that currently with Brx I have used // with a quasi-phonemic
> notation (I'll come back to that below), but may well change
> this if I resume work on the language.
>

Are there not morphological processes that leave the underlying /k/ or /t/
intact in some forms and not in others.  If not, why analyze it as an
allophone of both?

 Honestly, as the populace becomes literate, the writing
>> system may well come to have an influence on this
>> question, and thus Pinyin may actually come to act as a
>> force against allowing any of these to fall together
>> phonemically!
>>
>
> This may be so if Pinyin comes to have greater use.  At
> present AIUI it is used in primary schools to teach a
> standard pronunciation for the national language (in which
> case phonetic rather than phonemic considerations must
> prevail), and in rendering place names for tourists and
> other non-Chinese.  in the latter case, some of the Pinyin
> usage is somewhat counter-productive, e.g. _Chongqing_
> [tʂʰúŋtɕʰìŋ] is commonly pronounced [tʧʰɒŋkʰwiŋ]
> "Chongkwing" by many anglophones - and I've even heard
> people speaking a mysterious Kwing dynasty!
>

Pinyin is also commonly used as an intermediary for computer input.  Nearly
all mainland Chinese who use electronics (either computers or cellphones)
use some system which allows them to input (usually toneless) pinyin and
select the appropriate character from a generated list.  Thus Chinese are
becoming quite good at _producing_ pinyin.  I will note that, anecdotally,
I have found that Mandarin speakers tend to be quite lost when presented
with pinyin texts to read, particularly anything longer than a single word.

Also, as I have noted before, there are many factors involved in
romanization other than accessibility to foreigners.  To the extent that
any transcription of Mandarin can be elegant (given the difficulties
of analyzing the phonology), pinyin does a decent job.


>
>  I don't feel it's well appreciated (nor that there's
>> probably enough data yet to do so) how universal literacy
>> interferes with otherwise regular
>> primacy-of-speech-founded properties of phonology.
>>
>
> I agree.  But it depends what the future of Pinyin is.  If
> communism should collapse, what would happen to Pinyin?
>

I don't think a collapse of the Chinese regime (highly unlikely in the
short term) would lead to the death of pinyin.  It has been so widely
adopted in teaching that it could easily continue on in a successor
government, and its use has bled over into places outside the mainland
pretty noticeably.





Messages in this topic (86)


3.1. Vowels and colours (was: What's your favorite phoneme?)
Posted by: "Jörg Rhiemeier" joerg_rhieme...@web.de 
Date: Sat Oct 13, 2012 9:08 am ((PDT))

Hallo conlangers!

On Friday 12 October 2012 15:33:12 BPJ wrote:

> On 2012-10-10 02:03, And Rosta wrote:
> [...]
> > My favourite phones are [Z] and [E]. Both have a pinky orange
> > colour, [E] more like flame and [Z] velvet texture (like [D],
> > which is black) with maybe more of a rusty or raspberry-blonde hue.
> 
> Are you a synaesthete? I have a rather vague tendency
> in that direction. I read somewhere that there is a
> recurring pattern of vowel-space to color-space
> association across different synaesthetes:
> 
>  i   y   u
>  yellow  green   blue
> 
>  e   ə   o
>  orange  grayviolet
> 
>  a
>  red

This is essentially the kind of vowel/colour association scheme
I came up with for my main conculture (the British Elves), except
that [ə] does not occur in Old Albic, and /ø/, which does occur
but is missing from your chart, is brown.

--
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
"Bêsel asa Éam, a Éam at

[conlang] Digest Number 8835

[conlang]

long reign;)

-- 
Ray
==
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==
Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
There's none too old to learn.
[WELSH PROVERB]





Messages in this topic (94)


2.1. Re: What's your favorite phoneme?
Posted by: "Dirk Elzinga" dirk.elzi...@gmail.com 
Date: Sat Oct 13, 2012 10:21 am ((PDT))

About 12 years ago, we talked about the "death of the phoneme". You can
read the discussion here:
http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0011B&L=CONLANG&D=0&I=-3&d=No+Match%3BMatch%3BMatches&P=6847

In the time since that extended and enjoyable exchange (an enjoyment which
has been renewed upon rereading), I've also become acquainted with
exemplar-based approaches to language, which I find compelling for
psychological reasons as well as formal/theoretical ones. But since my time
now-a-days is spent doing field work and language documentation, the
theoretical debates have become kind of pointless to me. I'm not sure that
the Goshutes, Shoshones or Utes care whether phonemes, prosodies, OT
inputs, or exemplars are the Best Way to represent linguistic knowledge;
they just want their dictionaries and language materials to be useful and
accurate. (Of course, theoretical stances are implicit in how the language
will be represented in these materials, but those decisions are made for
pragmatic reasons and not out of theoretical/idiological purity.)

Dirk

On Fri, Oct 12, 2012 at 11:47 PM, Alex Fink <000...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Fri, 12 Oct 2012 09:11:40 -0400, Zach Wellstood 
> wrote:
>
> >On Fri, Oct 12, 2012 at 7:26 AM, R A Brown 
> wrote:
> >
> >> On 12/10/2012 10:42, Douglas Koller wrote:
> >>
> >> I do not understand why you write _phone(eme?)s_ - phones
> >> and phonemes are not the same thing.
> >>
> >>
> >The _reason_ why I was reluctant to write phone instead of phonemes is
> >because I distinctly remembered reading (somewhere) that a phone is not
> >only be used for speech sounds, but also for spontaneous sounds like
> >coughing, spitting, or doing weird things with your tongue. I thought that
> >was on Wikipedia, but can't find it now, so I guess my silly confusion was
> >more a beginner's mistake than anything. At the same time, everyone
> >understood this gist of what I meant, so...
>
> Yeah, I noticed, and responded to the phone question, using the word
> "phone" and the brackets [].  I considered saying something about the
> matter, but thought it might be a bit unseemly to be stick-in-the-muddish
> about that, for such a casual topic.  But now we've had it.
>
> Favourite phoneme _is_ a much harder thing: not asking "what's your
> favourite colour", but "what's your favourite element of a system of
> composing colour palettes that give similar effects for all the different
> possible visual environments?"  The former's easy to have; the latter, it
> seems impossible to even compass the range of possibilities in any
> manaģable way!
>
> IMO the word "phoneme" and the // brackets are very much overexposed, and
> people come to think they're the unmarked member of the opposition phone
> vs. phoneme, when in fact the opposite is true.  It's possible to use the
> [] brackets as narrowly or broadly as you like.  In an ideal world no-one
> would encounter "phoneme" and // without being explicitly warned that to
> use these is to accept a theoretical claim about the language in question,
> and hopefully already have "phone" and [] committed to unconscious default
> use by the time that happens...
>
> On Fri, 12 Oct 2012 12:26:36 +0100, R A Brown 
> wrote:
>
> >While the concept of phoneme is useful for the analysis of
> >very many languages, it does present problems.  What, for
> >example, is the phonemic status of the phones written as
> >_j_, _q_ and _x_ (i.e. [t͡ɕ], [t͡ɕʰ] and [ɕ]) in the Pinyin
> >spelling of Mandarin?  Is [ɕ] and allophone of /s/, /ʂ/ or
> >/x/?  A case can be made for each of these.  It is questions
> >like that that which really interest me, not whether someone
> >finds the phone [ʒ] "sexy" or the one they dislike the most  ;)
>
> I'm somewhat aware of alternatives to phonemes (not of Firth's in
> particular; it'd be kind if someone gave a worked example of his prosodic
> theory here, 'cause I'm not likely to have time to look soon).  Narrowly
> construed, I agree there are problems; certainly e.g. a t

[conlang] Digest Number 8836

[conlang]

There are 6 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1.1. Re: Phonetics, phonemics and Chinese
From: Alex Fink
1.2. Re: Phonetics, phonemics and Chinese
From: Jörg Rhiemeier
1.3. Re: Phonetics, phonemics and Chinese
From: Mike S.

2a. Re: Language control by religion (was: Re: Yardish and Dialects)
From: David McCann
2b. Re: Language control by religion (was: Re: Yardish and Dialects)
From: Nikolay Ivankov
2c. Re: Language control by religion (was: Re: Yardish and Dialects)
From: Nikolay Ivankov


Messages

1.1. Re: Phonetics, phonemics and Chinese
Posted by: "Alex Fink" 000...@gmail.com 
Date: Sun Oct 14, 2012 7:29 am ((PDT))

On Sun, 14 Oct 2012 02:39:34 -0400, Alex Fink <000...@gmail.com> wrote:

>The Pinyin use of Q is actually the Cyrillic letter Ч in Roman clothing, with 
>the top closed up, isn't it?  Which, I agree, I dislike as a motivation.  It's 
>a use of the _shape_ Q without regard to any other properties of the _Roman 
>letter_ Q.  

While we're on the topic: while the Q is a poor choice in cross-linguistic 
perspective, it's wholly innocent from a system-internal perspective.  So it 
doesn't make my Top Two List of Bad Design Choices in Pinyin:

(2) The use of a single diacriticked basic letter Ü.  Diacritics for tone marks 
is one thing; if they get dropped, that's at least a phonologically natural 
operation, though it is lossy.  But if the umlaut is dropped as well, then you 
also damage just one _segmental_ property of the syllable.  Why couldn't this 
be kept clean?  (Similarly, the worst choice in Albanian is not Q but Ç.)  
The designers seem to have felt the problem and left out the umlaut where its 
presence is reconstructible (I assume this isn't actually a phonemic 
identification choice).  But some Chinese users have seen and fixed the problem 
by, in various contexts, using YU or V in place of Ü.

*drumroll*

(1) The evisceration of the finals like WEI and YOU to UI and IU when they 
follow a nonzero initial.  Dear Ghu, why?  And don't give me any claptrap about 
brevity: if brevity were really the concern, we could have had WI ~ UI and YU ~ 
IU in every context!

Alex





Messages in this topic (97)

1.2. Re: Phonetics, phonemics and Chinese
Posted by: "Jörg Rhiemeier" joerg_rhieme...@web.de 
Date: Sun Oct 14, 2012 7:44 am ((PDT))

Hallo conlangers!

On Sunday 14 October 2012 09:18:13 R A Brown wrote:

> On 14/10/2012 01:18, George Corley wrote:
> [snip]
> 
> > Wow, so much hate for pinyin .
> 
> Hate is not how I would described my attitude to it.

Indeed not!  Hate is irrational and unwarranted.

>   "Ill
> advised" is better; my criticism is that that the Pinyin use
> is out of step with the use of _q_ generally (yes, I know
> Albanian uses it for [c], but that is not exactly a widely
> known language), and thus too easily leads to mispronunciations.

It is misleading, but I can't think of a better choice that
fits both the system and the "usual" values of the Latin
letters.  _jh_ has been suggested, but that conflicts with
the otherwise usage of h-digraphs for retroflexes.  The only
letter not used in Pinyin is _v_, and using *that* for [tɕʰ]
would be even more perverse!  And as you concede, Albanian
is indeed a precedent, although a rather obscure one.

> [snip]
> 
> > Also, I will point out that I much prefer the use of  > g> for /p t k/ in opposition to  for /pʰ tʰ kʰ/.
> 
> I don't think you'll find much, if any, disagreement on
> this.  All the more recent systems of romanization seem to
> agree on this point.

It makes sense.  If one was to spell the aspirated stops as
_ph_, _th_ etc., they'd probably be mispronounced as fricatives.
Using _p_ etc. for aspirated stops and _b_ etc. for unaspirated
ones at most results in a voice onset timing error, and it is
economical in avoiding digraphs and diacritics.

Overall, I consider Pinyin quite well-designed for its purpose.
 
--
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
"Bêsel asa Éam, a Éam atha cvanthal a cvanth atha Éamal." - SiM 1:1





Messages in this topic (97)

1.3. Re: Phonetics, phonemics and Chinese
Posted by: "Mike S." maik...@gmail.com 
Date: Sun Oct 14, 2012 9:48 am ((PDT))

On Sat, Oct 13, 2012 at 11:00 AM, R A Brown wrote:


> This may be so if Pinyin comes to have greater use.  At
> present AIUI it is used in primary schools to teach a
> standard pronunciation for the national language (in which
> case phonetic rather than phonemic consideratio

[conlang] Digest Number 8837

[conlang]

There are 15 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1.1. Re: Phonetics, phonemics and Chinese
From: R A Brown
1.2. Re: Phonetics, phonemics and Chinese
From: George Corley
1.3. Re: Phonetics, phonemics and Chinese
From: BPJ
1.4. Re: Phonetics, phonemics and Chinese
From: George Corley

2.1. "Death of the phoneme?" (was: What's your favorite phoneme?)
From: R A Brown

3a. Re: PIE dorsals (was: why don't velar...)
From: Alex Fink

4. Solutions for Bad Romanizations
From: Mike S.

5. speaking of odd romanizations
From: neo gu

6.1. Re: What's your favorite phoneme?
From: Leonardo Castro

7a. Fwd: Broadribb +
From: Michael Everson
7b. Re: Broadribb +
From: Dustfinger Batailleur
7c. Re: Fwd: Broadribb +
From: Tony Harris

8. Fwd: speaking of odd romanizations
From: Alex Fink

9. Yemoran Expressions
From: Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews

10.1. Re: Vowels and colours (was: What's your favorite phoneme?)
From: A. da Mek


Messages

1.1. Re: Phonetics, phonemics and Chinese
Posted by: "R A Brown" r...@carolandray.plus.com 
Date: Sun Oct 14, 2012 11:16 am ((PDT))

On 14/10/2012 15:29, Alex Fink wrote:
> On Sun, 14 Oct 2012 02:39:34 -0400, Alex Fink wrote:
>
>> The Pinyin use of Q is actually the Cyrillic letter Ч
>> in Roman clothing, with the top closed up, isn't it?
>> Which, I agree, I dislike as a motivation.  It's a use
>>  of the _shape_ Q without regard to any other
>> properties of the _Roman letter_ Q.
>
> While we're on the topic: while the Q is a poor choice in
> cross-linguistic perspective, it's wholly innocent from a
> system-internal perspective.

Which sort of begs the question what is Pinyin for?  If the
Chinese merely wanted an internal phonetic rendering of the
standard language they already had bopomofo, which is
derived from traditional Chinese writing, and had no need to
use any western script.  It only makes sense to me to choose
the Roman script if one wants to facilitate communication
with the external world.  In this case, surely, some regard
ought to have paid to the way the Roman script is generally
used.

. So it doesn't make
> my Top Two List of Bad Design Choices in Pinyin:
>
> (2) The use of a single diacriticked basic letter Ü.
> Diacritics for tone marks is one thing; if they get
> dropped, that's at least a phonologically natural
> operation, though it is lossy.  But if the umlaut is
> dropped as well, then you also damage just one
> _segmental_ property of the syllable.  Why couldn't this
>  be kept clean?

Well, it could have been kept clean of course.

> (Similarly, the worst choice in Albanian is not Q but Ç.)
>
_ç_ = [tʃ] doesn't worry me; but _x_ = [dz] is bizarre IMO.
  But let's not get into reforming Albanian spelling (my own
experience is that Albanians are passionate defenders of
their language).

> The designers seem to have felt the problem and left out
> the umlaut where its presence is reconstructible (I
> assume this isn't actually a phonemic identification
> choice).  But some Chinese users have seen and fixed the
> problem by, in various contexts, using YU or V in place
> of Ü.

I knew that _yu_ was used in place of ü after l- and n- by
some, but I wasn't aware that _v_ was also similarly used -
ach y fi!

> *drumroll*
>
> (1) The evisceration of the finals like WEI and YOU to UI
> and IU when they follow a nonzero initial.  Dear Ghu,
> why?  And don't give me any claptrap about brevity: if
> brevity were really the concern, we could have had WI ~
> UI and YU ~ IU in every context!

I agree entirely!
===

On 14/10/2012 17:48, Mike S. wrote:
> On Sat, Oct 13, 2012 at 11:00 AM, R A Brown wrote:
>
[snip]
>> some of the Pinyin usage is somewhat
>> counter-productive, e.g. _Chongqing_ [tʂʰúŋtɕʰìŋ] is
>> commonly pronounced [tʧʰɒŋkʰwiŋ] "Chongkwing" by many
>> anglophones - and I've even heard people speaking a
>> mysterious Kwing dynasty!
>>
>
> My sympathy is with the anglophones in this case.
> Pinyin may be efficient in an engelangy sort of way, but
> its designers should have been looking forward to the day
> in which Mandarin would be a _world language_,

Exactly!

[snip]
>
> Maybe these Romanizers should have hired people from the
> Conlang list to help them out.

:-)

If you look back in the archives you'll find that many
suggestions have been put forward from this list.  So far
the politburo has not shown any interest in them   ;)

-- 
Ray
==
http://www.caroland

[conlang] Digest Number 8838

[conlang]

7;s, umm, ...
>
> >*sigh* I wish Maggel orthography was as easy to describe as this!
>
> No you don't!  Where would the fun be in that?  :-p
>
> Far from contending for your crown, I was rather hoping that showing
> another non-bizarre system without a one-to-one letter-sound correspondence
> would make the notion of doing so seem more accessible.  Making something
> like Maggel is intimidating...
>
> For those who read my description: embarrassingly, I entirely forgot the
> phoneme  /kx/!  And I forgot to note the behaviour of some of the other
> velars before .  In inflection one can get <ŋi> /Ji/, but the other
> velars are respelled, so e.g.  +  = ~ /tSi/.  (And I
> transcribe the esh letter as <š>, not  per my last message.)
>
> Alex
>





Messages in this topic (4)


2a. Re: Yemoran Expressions
Posted by: "Daniel Prohaska" dan...@ryan-prohaska.com 
Date: Mon Oct 15, 2012 2:17 am ((PDT))

What do you want your language to sound like?

What kind of grammatical structure do you want your language to have?

What kind of imagery do you want your language to use?

You're the emerging poet, budding novelist� novel and budd something ;-)

Dan

On Oct 15, 2012, at 8:13 AM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews wrote:

> How do I create Yemoran expressions?
> Emerging poet
> Pen Name Mellissa Green
> Budding novelist
> tweet me
> 
> 
> 
> GreenNovelist
> 
> blog
> 
> 
> www.theworldofyemora.wordpress.com





Messages in this topic (4)

2b. Re: Yemoran Expressions
Posted by: "Nikolay Ivankov" lukevil...@gmail.com 
Date: Mon Oct 15, 2012 5:16 am ((PDT))

That's the question that make people like me come to the conlang list.
Because Your question may actually be interpreted as "how do I create a
language?". And since the whole list is functioning for such a long lime,
with different people of different ages, nationalities and views still have
plenty of stuff to discuss for so many years, this question could not be
answered lightly.

As a novice in that, I can recommend learning a new language. It's the
easiest way to become on par with the terminology. Also, every new language
you learn gives you new unexpected insights. For me learning Japanese was a
mind-blowing experience, and though I have almost forgotten this languages
within the years that passed since then, it has strongly influenced me and,
finally, led me here.

One could have also suggested reading some more theoretical works, but I'm
afraid they are seldom available as audiobooks or even in a format that
could be read by a voice-generator. I'm definitely not sure, but I had to
take the books I needed from the library, for they are also quite
expensive. I hope that this may be different with the language courses - in
the end, in most more or less big cities it is always possible to just
attend one.

Once you get familiar with basic constructions and how they vary in
different languages, you have much more space for imagination. And that's
when you may start to fancy, how such and such phrase may sound in your
conlang. Here, again, we all have much freedom. Language itself is a piece
of art, just like a novel or a verse. Other people can give advises, share
common patterns, but that's it.

Sorry, if my e-mail was not helpful. That is as much as I can suggest.

Best luck with Yermona!

Kolya

On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 8:13 AM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <
goldyemo...@gmail.com> wrote:

> How do I create Yemoran expressions?
> Emerging poet
> Pen Name Mellissa Green
> Budding novelist
> tweet me
>
>
>
> GreenNovelist
>
> blog
>
>
> www.theworldofyemora.wordpress.com
>





Messages in this topic (4)

2c. Re: Yemoran Expressions
Posted by: "Adam Walker" carra...@gmail.com 
Date: Mon Oct 15, 2012 7:42 am ((PDT))

Decide on a few culturally important metaphores and build from there.

Adam

On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 1:13 AM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <
goldyemo...@gmail.com> wrote:

> How do I create Yemoran expressions?
> Emerging poet
> Pen Name Mellissa Green
> Budding novelist
> tweet me
>
>
>
> GreenNovelist
>
> blog
>
>
> www.theworldofyemora.wordpress.com
>





Messages in this topic (4)


3.1. Re: Phonetics, phonemics and Chinese
Posted by: "R A Brown" r...@carolandray.plus.com 
Date: Mon Oct 15

[conlang] Digest Number 8839

[conlang]

ency and longest wavelenght, thus the natural assotiation
>>> of wovels with colors is:
>>>
>>> i Blue ü Magenta u Red
>>> ï Azure ů Orange
>>> e Cyan ö White o Yellow
>>> ä Tyrquise å Lime
>>> a Green
>>
>> How do you work this out? Frequency and wavelength are independent, and 
>> you're linking them with first and second formants? I don't follow...
>
> i-ï-e-ä-a-å-o-ů-u are sorted simply by the formant f2 and associated with the 
> spectral colors B--C--G--Y--R from the highest (*there* called "shallowest") 
> to the lowest (deepest) frequencies.
> /ü/ is between /i/ and /u/ like M between B and R; /ö/ is in the centre of 
> the triangle like White.
>
> If there is both front rounded /ü/ and back unrounded /y/ and so we want the 
> cube instead of the triangle, then /y/ may be associated with blacK. The R 
> component then corresponds to roundness, the G component to openness and the 
> B component to frontness.

That's pretty neat! The result *feels* completely wrong, but the logic of it is 
neat.

Did you get the values for specific hues by dividing the blue--red spectrum 
into 9 equal stretches and picking the median hue? Or by equating extreme red 
and blue with the extremes of F2 and plotting the other vowels on the 
corresponding point in the colour spectrum according to their F2 value? Or just 
by picking 9 psychologically salient hues and assigning them to the nine 
peripheral vowels?

--And.





Messages in this topic (111)


3a. Re: speaking of odd romanizations
Posted by: "Alex Fink" 000...@gmail.com 
Date: Mon Oct 15, 2012 11:22 am ((PDT))

On Mon, 15 Oct 2012 11:56:03 -0500, Adam Walker  wrote:

>Ebisedian orthography (which I believe was/is a romanization) is a bizarre
>bestie.  IIRC, the language name is pronounced /pIzde/ or something similar.

(I suspect there would be a dirty Russian pun there, if I knew the language...)

Bizarre it may be but I thought the writing system was a straightforward one, 
just _ɜbɩsɜ̄́dɩ_ /@bis'@:di/ letter for letter.  

What I wonder whether you're thinking of is Pidse [wID@]:
  http://zsau.firespeaker.org/Conlang/Pidse/
Which, good point, does very much go in the "crimes against the Roman alphabet" 
category!  But then it was expressly its goal to twist a pesky auxlanger's 
offering into perversity.  

Alex





Messages in this topic (8)

3b. Re: speaking of odd romanizations
Posted by: "Adam Walker" carra...@gmail.com 
Date: Mon Oct 15, 2012 12:07 pm ((PDT))

Yes, it seems my remeberer is in the same shape as the rest of my brain atm.

Adam

On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 1:22 PM, Alex Fink <000...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, 15 Oct 2012 11:56:03 -0500, Adam Walker 
> wrote:
>
> >Ebisedian orthography (which I believe was/is a romanization) is a bizarre
> >bestie.  IIRC, the language name is pronounced /pIzde/ or something
> similar.
>
> (I suspect there would be a dirty Russian pun there, if I knew the
> language...)
>
> Bizarre it may be but I thought the writing system was a straightforward
> one, just _ɜbɩsɜ̄́dɩ_ /@bis'@:di/ letter for letter.
>
> What I wonder whether you're thinking of is Pidse [wID@]:
>   http://zsau.firespeaker.org/Conlang/Pidse/
> Which, good point, does very much go in the "crimes against the Roman
> alphabet" category!  But then it was expressly its goal to twist a pesky
> auxlanger's offering into perversity.
>
> Alex
>





Messages in this topic (8)

3c. Re: speaking of odd romanizations
Posted by: "And Rosta" and.ro...@gmail.com 
Date: Mon Oct 15, 2012 3:29 pm ((PDT))

neo gu, On 14/10/2012 23:14:
> AFMCL, this is a transliteration of a not-yet-developed native orthography, 
> using 18 letters.
>
> a [a]
> e [E], [e]
> o [O], [o]
> i [i], [dZ)]
> u [u], [b]
> l [l]
> m [m]
> n [N] before k or g, else [n]
> d [d] after n, l, d or initially, else [r]
> g vowel length in coda position, [h] after f, s, x, q, p, t, c, k, else [g]
> f [f]
> s [s]
> x [S]
> q [X]
> p [p]
> t [t]
> c [tS)]
> k [k]
>
> diphthongs: ai [ai], oi [Oi], eu [Eu], au [au]
> digraphs: ei [e:], ou [o:]
> other long vowels: [i:], [E:], [a:], [O:], [u:]
>
> short e and o are [E] and [O] if stressed or obstructed.
>
> i and u are consonants if preceding a vowel and either initial or following 
> m, n, l, d, vowel.
>
> Examples:
>
> nod doggi [nOr.dO:.gi]
> uomuau [

[conlang] Digest Number 8840

[conlang]

 I use to call my dog Paws, when she was 
> living. I wonder if that could work?Fluffy?
>
> How about shiftie?
>
>
> Emerging poet
> Pen Name Mellissa Green
> Budding novelist
> tweet me
>
>
>
> GreenNovelist
>
> blog
>
>
> www.theworldofyemora.wordpress.com
>
>
> - Original Message - 
> From: "George Corley" 
> To: 
> Sent: Monday, October 15, 2012 10:45 PM
> Subject: Re: Creating Racist Terms
>
>
>> Just think to the stereotypical qualities werewolves would have that 
>> people
>> would latch onto.  There are are a lot of different ways that a word can
>> become a racial slur (or a racial slur can develop).  For one, a formerly
>> inoffensive term can start being used offensively, as with "redskin", or
>> the offensive term can be an alteration of a common term -- such as
>> "nigger" from "Negro" (the latter of which has been pretty much damned by
>> association now).  They don't have to be physically descriptive either:
>> "wetback" comes from the (stereotypical) impression of Mexicans crossing
>> the Rio Grande to enter the US illegally.  I'm not sure where
>> "whop(italli)" comes from, but it could be some stereotype about the way
>> Italians talk, and "dego" is a corruption of a stereotypical name.
>>
>> I don't know enough about your werewolves to really go too far with them.
>> Most likely some term for "hairy" or describing their bestial nature 
>> could
>> become offensive.  Another possibility is that terms relating to
>> transformation or shapeshifting could become offensive (if your 
>> werewolves
>> shapeshift or are *believed* to shapeshift).
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 9:20 PM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <
>> goldyemo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> How would I go about creating racist terms for werewolves?
>>> Emerging poet
>>> Pen Name Mellissa Green
>>> Budding novelist
>>> tweet me
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> GreenNovelist
>>>
>>> blog
>>>
>>>
>>> www.theworldofyemora.wordpress.com
>>>
> 





Messages in this topic (1)


3.1. Re: What's your favorite phoneme?
Posted by: "Douglas Koller" douglaskol...@hotmail.com 
Date: Mon Oct 15, 2012 9:05 pm ((PDT))

> Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 17:49:34 +0100
> From: and.ro...@gmail.com
> Subject: Re: What's your favorite phoneme?
> To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
 
> Douglas Koller, On 10/10/2012 01:52:
> > [2]/[9] and [y]/[Y] are all over the place. Love 'em. [C]/[s\], hurrah. 
> > [j\]/[z\] were a bit of a late comer to the party, as attested in the 
> > orthography, but are making up for lost time.

> > And apologies, but [T] and [D] are a guilty conlanging pleasure. :)
 
> I will add [D]/[dD] to my list of faves, plus also [9i] & [&y]. I think I 
> recall Gearthnuns having [9i] & me expressing appreciation about that, long 
> ago.


Wow, someone remembers. To use a Teonahtism, "Me all blushing". Yes, [9i] is 
alive and well and will be wintering in Abdens this year. I neglected to 
include it as a fave, I guess, 'cause it's lost some of its "Gosh-a-roony, Mr. 
Wizard!" fascination of years past, though it has its own letter in Géarthnuns. 
You will also recall that at the time I was taken out behind the shed for using 
an "as in" illustration over IPA, describing it as the "-euille" in "feuille", 
now immortalized somewhere in the ether on someone's "ridiculous quotes from 
hell" page. Plus ça change...

Kou   




Messages in this topic (112)


4a. Re: Yemoran Expressions
Posted by: "Douglas Koller" douglaskol...@hotmail.com 
Date: Mon Oct 15, 2012 9:16 pm ((PDT))

> Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2012 00:08:29 +0100
> From: samjj...@gmail.com
> Subject: Re: Yemoran Expressions
> To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu

> You can twist existing words by modifying their sound, squishing two existing 
> words together "manbag" (male handbag), "hatinator" (a cross between a hat 
> and a fascinator) or using them differently "scally" (meaning miscreant, but 
> actually meaning "Liverpudlian" but actually meaning a type of stew) 

Devoid of this explanati

[conlang] Digest Number 8841

[conlang]

andards of correctness in speech and writing is a social
fact and a linguistic phenomenon. There's a lot of leftist and populist
ideology in 20th century linguistics, especially that emanating from
the USA.





Messages in this topic (6)


2a. Re: Yemoran Expressions
Posted by: "Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews" goldyemo...@gmail.com 
Date: Mon Oct 15, 2012 11:57 pm ((PDT))

ywemorans aren't dragons, but they use them a lot. Yemorans start off as 
insects which the parents cocoon. Then they come out of the cocoon in 
humanoid form, just differently-shaped hands.
Emerging poet
Pen Name Mellissa Green
Budding novelist
tweet me



GreenNovelist

blog


www.theworldofyemora.wordpress.com


- Original Message - 
From: "Nikolay Ivankov" 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2012 2:45 AM
Subject: Re: Yemoran Expressions


> Well, this changes much in the discussion about the Yemoran's medieval
> culture and the way of life (only cities, interstellar contacts). I'd
> replace the word "medieval" with "pre-industrial", which just means that
> Yemorans do not produce machines more complex than, say, clock and 
> windmill
> and no engines at all.
>
> At this point You may have whatever explanation why do Yemorans live in 
> the
> cities. Why, they are dragons, their physiology and psychology may be
> totally different from ours, or be similar, but with unexpected quirks.
> Say, they need to stay within some close range of some kind of energizing
> rocks, around which their cities are built, but if they have some king of
> herding or agriculture they just have no problem to fly a long distance to
> their fields or pastures.
>
> Back to to language construction, the Yemoran's may have such kind of
> speaking apparatus that they may pronounce the sounds impossible for 
> humans
> and vice versa.
>
> On Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 1:26 AM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <
> goldyemo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Comming into contact with English words works. TYemoans are a dragon
>> culture.
>>
>> Emerging poet
>> Pen Name Mellissa Green
>> Budding novelist
>> tweet me
>>
>>
>>
>> GreenNovelist
>>
>> blog
>>
>>
>> www.theworldofyemora.**wordpress.com<http://www.theworldofyemora.wordpress.com>
>>
>>
>> - Original Message - From: "Sam Stutter" 
>> To: 
>> Sent: Monday, October 15, 2012 7:08 PM
>> Subject: Re: Yemoran Expressions
>>
>>
>>
>> What? Sayings and slang - correct me if I'm wrong - are two entirely
>> different things. Slang is using non-standard, informal and (very often)
>> "impolite" words. There are plenty of really great slang sources:
>> urbandictionary.com is my favourite :)
>>
>> There's always plenty of slang words for "police" and anything that's
>> illegal. Slang is independent of dialect or accent and usually unites one
>> social group - the military produces copious amounts of slang. How do you
>> invent slang? Well, you can borrow from other languages your conlang 
>> might
>> have come into contact with - the English word "chav", for example,
>> probably comes from Romani gypsy "chavi" meaning "boy" or (I only learnt
>> this the other day) the British army term "sangar" probably comes from
>> Hindi.
>>
>> You can twist existing words by modifying their sound, squishing two
>> existing words together "manbag" (male handbag), "hatinator" (a cross
>> between a hat and a fascinator) or using them differently "scally" 
>> (meaning
>> miscreant, but actually meaning "Liverpudlian" but actually meaning a 
>> type
>> of stew) or using acronyms inventively - hence "fubar" and "yuppie". Then
>> again, words can simply be made up, like "yomp" (I swear it's a 
>> backronym).
>>
>> "Sayings"? You mean like "a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush"?
>> Just work out what your people need to express often enough that an 
>> analogy
>> comes in handy. What sort of things do your people come into contact 
>> with?
>> If they're a fishing culture, they're likely to have a lot of fish-based
>> analogies. I dunno... "sadder than a pair of empty waders"? If they breed 
>> a
>> lot of cattle, they're likely to have lots of cattle-based analogies...
>> uh... "

[conlang] Digest Number 8842

[conlang]

There are 4 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Creating Racist Terms
From: Adam Walker

2.1. Re: hues and vowels (was: Re: What's your favorite phoneme?
From: A. da Mek

3a. ideology & linguistics (was: Re: [CONLANG] Solutions for Bad Romaniz
From: And Rosta
3b. Re: ideology & linguistics (was: Re: [CONLANG] Solutions for Bad Rom
From: JS Bangs


Messages

1a. Re: Creating Racist Terms
Posted by: "Adam Walker" carra...@gmail.com 
Date: Tue Oct 16, 2012 8:55 am ((PDT))

On Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 9:43 AM, Patrick Dunn  wrote:

> >
> >
> >
> > So yes, if you want to be a writer you have to *actually write* rather
> than
> > come up with reasons why the writing isn't happening. But this doesn't
> mean
> > that creation is always conscious, and it certainly doesn't mean that
> > people who experience subconscious creation as from an external source
> are
> > loons.
> >
> > - David
> >
>
> I actually teach automatic writing as a method for idea generation, so I'm
> not completely adverse to the unconscious elements of writing.  It's the
> actual idea that the characters have *actually* taken over the work that I
> think is kind of insane.  Yes, sometimes the work just sort of comes --
> sometimes, very, very rarely.  And that's not a sign of being nuts, of
> course.  But if you have to add in a whole disconnected and useless scene
> of your character getting a snack because the character told you that he
> was hungry (yes, this is a real example that someone actually said in a
> workshop), then you have gone off the deep end and need to pull yourself
> back.  And then cut that useless scene.
>
>

I have two novels in progress and a fair bundle of short stories.  Nothing
that I have "planned" has ever worked out to my satisfaction.  My stories
work when the characters take over and do what they want.  If I can get my
characters talking to each other in my head, the story will just happen.  I
don't plot ahead of time; my plots arise from what the characters start
doing.  I'm sure I'm making the decisions, but they are burried far enough
down in my subconscious that I don't know what I'm doing until it happens.
When I consciously decide character X should do such and such because it
would be good for the plot, it rarely works out well.

Let me give you an example of how it works for me.  Last week I was looking
over the part of my novel that I have written so far, and I realized that
Jva wasn't showing up enough in the earlier part of the book to justify the
role he plays in the mid to later part of the book.  So I jotted down a
note to myself that Jva needed to to do more, and set it aside.  A few days
later I decided I should try to write a secen including Jva.  I still
didn't know what the scene would be, but I set pen to paper (yes I write
much of my stuff in longhand) and suddenly Jva was there proposing to his
girlfriend.  I don't mind romantic elements in the books I read, but
proposals and such are hardly an intense interest of mine -- I've never
even been on a date for heaven's sake!  Then my main character walks in on
the happy couple and stumbels his way through congratulating them and by
the end of the scene Jva has a new gig as an interior designer for a
meeting room for a summit that I didn't know was happening (though I think
one scene I wrote last year is part of that summit) and has a capstone
project for his studies that I didn't know he needed.  Plus several details
about Halcyan wedding customs which I hadn't previously solidified came
clear in the writing. And all this will help to fill in some things about
the MC that were missing/weak while bridging part of one of the biggest
gaps still extant in the story.

Oh and that's the other thing.  I'm a very non-linear writer.  I write
scenes as they materialize in my head, and they rarely do so in order.  I
currently have about 30 chapters.  Of those about 17 are complete and the
rest are still missing scenes.  For some the missing parts may only be a
couple hundred words that lead into the next chapter or the same tying the
chapter to the previous one.  For others the beginning or ending may be all
I currently have.  For others I don't yet know what is missing, I just know
they aren't yet complete.  Sometimes these incomplet chapters come with
titles that tell me  what the rest of the chapter will eventually be
about.  Other times they are just fragments that will eventually fit in
somewhere and get snazzy names like U7 (for the 7th untitled bit of
stuff).  Recently I wrote a titled bit and then just as I was about to
close the file and call it a day I remember

[conlang] Digest Number 8843

[conlang]

There are 15 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1.1. Re: Phonetics, phonemics and Chinese
From: Jörg Rhiemeier

2.1. Re: hues and vowels (was: Re: What's your favorite phoneme?
From: Hugo Cesar de Castro Carneiro
2.2. Re: hues and vowels (was: Re: What's your favorite phoneme?
From: Hugo Cesar de Castro Carneiro

3a. Re: OT: IPA for iPhone
From: Brian Woodward
3b. Re: OT: IPA for iPhone
From: Alex Fink
3c. Re: OT: IPA for iPhone
From: Michael Everson

4a. Re: Solutions for Bad Romanizations
From: Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets
4b. Re: Solutions for Bad Romanizations
From: George Corley

5a. Re: ideology & linguistics (was: Re: [CONLANG] Solutions for Bad Rom
From: Jack Steiner
5b. Re: ideology & linguistics (was: Re: [CONLANG] Solutions for Bad Rom
From: JS Bangs
5c. Re: ideology & linguistics (was: Re: [CONLANG] Solutions for Bad Rom
From: Jack Steiner
5d. Re: ideology & linguistics (was: Re: [CONLANG] Solutions for Bad Rom
From: George Corley
5e. Re: ideology & linguistics (was: Re: [CONLANG] Solutions for Bad Rom
From: Daniel Bowman
5f. Re: ideology & linguistics (was: Re: [CONLANG] Solutions for Bad Rom
From: Mike S.
5g. Re: ideology & linguistics (was: Re: [CONLANG] Solutions for Bad Rom
From: JS Bangs


Messages

1.1. Re: Phonetics, phonemics and Chinese
Posted by: "Jörg Rhiemeier" joerg_rhieme...@web.de 
Date: Tue Oct 16, 2012 9:51 am ((PDT))

Hallo conlangers!

On Monday 15 October 2012 14:59:37 R A Brown wrote:

> On 14/10/2012 19:30, George Corley wrote:
> [...]
> > Implementing Bopomofo at this point could be somewhat
> > politically sensitive, as it is strongly associated with
> > Taiwan
> 
> Sigh - yes, you're right.  Also the whole history of the
> different Romanizations of the 20th century is shot through
> with politics.  System are abandoned and others adopted not
> for linguistic reasons but for political ones.
> 
> That's why I've ceased to give my ideas of romanizing
> Mandarin; Pinyin is not going to be dropt unless there is a
> change to the political system.  But even if that were to
> happen, I somehow don't think I or anyone on this list will
> be asked our opinion on any changes  ;)

Amen.  It is the same futile business as with English spelling
reforms, or auxlangs ;)

In my personal future history, the People's Republic of China is
overthrown in 2029 in a non-violent revolution, the democratic
Federal Republic of China established in its place (with a change
of the national flag to the red-yellow-blue-white-black of the
early-20th century republic) and many things change - but Pinyin
is not one of those things.  It is just a way of writing Mandarin
in Latin letters, and one that does its job reasonably well.

--
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
"Bêsel asa Éam, a Éam atha cvanthal a cvanth atha Éamal." - SiM 1:1





Messages in this topic (116)


2.1. Re: hues and vowels (was: Re: What's your favorite phoneme?
Posted by: "Hugo Cesar de Castro Carneiro" hcesarcas...@gmail.com 
Date: Tue Oct 16, 2012 10:19 am ((PDT))

da Mek, what you are proposing is associating the vowel chart with the RGB
color space. But this is only one possibility.

Maybe one can use HSV (or HSL), or even CIE Lab (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lab_color_space). Using Lab I think that the
"a" coordinate can be associated with the openness and the "be" with the
backness. "L" coordinate (luminance) can maybe be associated with the
roundedness (or the r-coloring, which changes the frequency of F3,
analogously to openness and backness that change F1 and F2, respectively).

Anyway, there are 4 characteristics that can be associated with any
particular vowel. Color spaces, on the other hand, usually are represented
by only 3.


P.S.: I chose using "a" coordinate for openness because it ranges from
magenta to green (open to close, according to Jörg Rhiemeier e-mail). I
associated "b" coordinate with the backness because it ranges from yellow
to blue (front to back, according to his e-mail).

On Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 1:10 PM, A. da Mek  wrote:

>  Did you get the values for specific hues by dividing the blue--red
>> spectrum
>> into 9 equal stretches and picking the median hue? Or by equating extreme
>> red and blue with the extremes of F2 and plotting the other vowels on the
>> corresponding point in the colour spectrum according to their F2 value? Or
>> just by picking 

[conlang] Digest Number 8845

[conlang]

There are 15 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1.1. Re: Data sunt data (was: Solutions for Bad Romanizations)
From: Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets
1.2. Re: Data sunt data
From: R A Brown

2.1. Re: Solutions for Bad Romanizations
From: And Rosta
2.2. Re: Solutions for Bad Romanizations
From: George Corley
2.3. Re: Solutions for Bad Romanizations
From: Jim Henry

3a. Re: "Untranslatable words"
From: A. da Mek

4a. Re: Chengyu / Set Phrases (was: Yemoran Expressions)
From: Padraic Brown
4b. Re: Chengyu / Set Phrases (was: Yemoran Expressions)
From: Adam Walker
4c. Re: Chengyu / Set Phrases (was: Yemoran Expressions)
From: Nikolay Ivankov
4d. Re: Chengyu / Set Phrases (was: Yemoran Expressions)
From: Roger Mills

5.1. Re: ideology & linguistics (was: Re: [CONLANG] Solutions for Bad Rom
From: David McCann
5.2. Re: ideology & linguistics (was: Re: [CONLANG] Solutions for Bad Rom
From: Daniel Bowman

6a. outsider art
From: Wm Annis
6b. Re: outsider art
From: Daniel Bowman

7.1. Re: ideology & linguistics
From: And Rosta


Messages

1.1. Re: Data sunt data (was: Solutions for Bad Romanizations)
Posted by: "Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets" tsela...@gmail.com 
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2012 12:06 am ((PDT))

On 17 October 2012 08:32, R A Brown  wrote:

> On 16/10/2012 19:33, Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets wrote:
> [snip]
>
>>
>> And what has this got to do with anything? Data is data.
>>
>
> Or should it be "data are data"?;)
>
>
LOL!


>
> But the Pompeian graffiti, the letters of Cicero & his other
> more literary productions are all data; they give an insight
> into the differing strata of Latin which existed during the
> late Republic and early Empire.
>
>
Very true. If you want an insight on the various registers of the Latin
language, then all data is useful. I just contend that if you want to
understand how the Latin that gave birth to the various Romance tongues was
actually spoken, only studying the high-brow "posh" works will help you
little.

My point isn't that the linguist shouldn't be aware of the various
registers present in any language, or should ignore registers that are only
(or mostly only) present in written form. It is that they shouldn't
discriminate and ignore data based on value judgements about what is "good
language" or not. It would be as bad as having pre-Relativity
astrophysicists ignore the anomalous precession of Mercury's orbit just
because it didn't agree with Newtonian physics and they didn't "like" it!
-- 
Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.

http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/





Messages in this topic (32)

1.2. Re: Data sunt data
Posted by: "R A Brown" r...@carolandray.plus.com 
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2012 12:49 am ((PDT))

On 17/10/2012 08:05, Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets wrote:
> On 17 October 2012 08:32, R A Brown wrote:
[snip]
> I just contend that if you want to understand how the
> Latin that gave birth to the various Romance tongues was
> actually spoken, only studying the high-brow "posh" works
> will help you little.

Indeed not - in fact using only written Classical Latin can
be misleading.  All data that points towards the actual
spoken language is helpful. Graffiti are particularly helpful.

> My point isn't that the linguist shouldn't be aware of
> the various registers present in any language, or should
>  ignore registers that are only (or mostly only) present
>  in written form. It is that they shouldn't discriminate
>  and ignore data based on value judgements about what is
>  "good language" or not.

Indeed, they should not.  A linguist may observe that
certain characteristics are typical of one layer of speech
or or the other; but judgments like "this is bad language"
or "this is correct language" are not part of the linguist's
work.

E.g. it is not up to the linguist to label the "between you
and I" construction as "bad English".  A linguist has to
accept that this construction has now become very widespread
in all strata of society and account for it.  S/he will
discover that the popular language would have had "between
me and you" if it were not for interference from
prescriptivists in the past, and that "between you and I"
developed as a hyper-correction.  But it has now become so
commonplace among both 'the educated' and 'the uneducated'
that it cannot be ignored.  The linguist will surely see the
phenomenon as showi

[conlang] Digest Number 8846

[conlang]

There are 15 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: outsider art
From: George Corley
1b. Re: outsider art
From: Padraic Brown

2a. Re: Chengyu / Set Phrases (was: Yemoran Expressions)
From: Zach Wellstood
2b. Re: Chengyu / Set Phrases (was: Yemoran Expressions)
From: Adam Walker
2c. Re: Chengyu / Set Phrases (was: Yemoran Expressions)
From: A. da Mek
2d. Re: Chengyu / Set Phrases (was: Yemoran Expressions)
From: Leonardo Castro
2e. Re: Chengyu / Set Phrases (was: Yemoran Expressions)
From: Padraic Brown
2f. Re: Chengyu / Set Phrases (was: Yemoran Expressions)
From: A. da Mek
2g. Re: Chengyu / Set Phrases (was: Yemoran Expressions)
From: Adam Walker
2h. Re: Chengyu / Set Phrases (was: Yemoran Expressions)
From: Mechthild Czapp
2i. Re: Chengyu / Set Phrases (was: Yemoran Expressions)
From: Roger Mills

3.1. Re: Solutions for Bad Romanizations
From: George Corley
3.2. politics and prescriptivism (was: Re: Solutions for Bad Romanization
From: And Rosta

4.1. Re: ideology & linguistics
From: Mike S.
4.2. Re: ideology & linguistics
From: And Rosta


Messages

1a. Re: outsider art
Posted by: "George Corley" gacor...@gmail.com 
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2012 11:13 am ((PDT))

I had to look this guy up.  I have no freaking idea.  We're all so enmeshed
in this community.

On Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 11:41 AM, Daniel Bowman wrote:

> For a long time I would have fallen under this definition.  It was a bit of
> a struggle to come to the Conlang list and start describing my work, but I
> think my language is the better for it.
>
> 2012/10/17 Wm Annis 
>
> > Apropos of nothing...
> >
> > So.  Who's the Henry Darger of conlanging?  Does such a
> > person exist?  How likely is it we'd even learn about them if
> > they did?
> >
> > --
> > William S. Annis
> > www.aoidoi.org • www.scholiastae.org
> >
>





Messages in this topic (4)

1b. Re: outsider art
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" elemti...@yahoo.com 
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2012 12:38 pm ((PDT))

--- On Wed, 10/17/12, Wm Annis  wrote:

> Apropos of nothing...
> 
> So.  Who's the Henry Darger of conlanging?  Does
> such a person exist?  How likely is it we'd even learn about
> them if they did?

Well, I don't think you'll find this person on this list for one thing! ;)

It might be interesting to know if somewhere in the 15k page story Darger
himself didn't record a conlang... 

Since the public revelation of conlanging is a fairly recent phenomenon,
roughly corresponding with the advent of the internet, and since before
the present time conlanging was considered a "secret vice", I think it
stands to reason that just about *any* conlanger of the last ten centuries
or so, apart from the published ones, could justifiably called a "darger
of conlanging". All of their works were kept private, and it's only by
luck that they get discovered ... or not. We assume they exist, these
unknown and unrevealed conlangers, as a matter of probability. I think it
very unlikely we will ever find out about their works unless some lucky
person finds a latter day Voynich MS or similar at a flea market, 
recognizes that the language is constructed and reveals that to the world.
Chances are better that their family, ignorant of a deceased relative's
conlanging, would just glance and toss away as meaningless any notebooks 
or papers of a conlangy nature.

> William S. Annis

Padraic
 





Messages in this topic (4)


2a. Re: Chengyu / Set Phrases (was: Yemoran Expressions)
Posted by: "Zach Wellstood" zwellst...@gmail.com 
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2012 11:17 am ((PDT))

Everyone seems to (for the most part) have had similar experiences with
learning/creating idioms. I feel like this is underscoring a point for me
that I've been taking them for granted and should pay attention more in
nat-/conlang settings! I have only made one, which is translated as
"hailing down upon somebody" and means that you're giving someone a hard
time about something. They seem to arise more from the cultural side of
language, so I wonder what I'll come up with without having a conculture...

Zach



On Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 2:09 PM, Roger Mills  wrote:

> The only "idiom" I recall being taught in beginning Spanish (and not much
> afterwards even in college) was "tomar el pelo (a alguien)" equiv. to Engl.
> "to pull (someone's) leg&qu

[conlang] Digest Number 8847

[conlang]

There are 15 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1.1. Re: politics and prescriptivism (was: Re: Solutions for Bad Romaniza
From: George Corley
1.2. Re: politics and prescriptivism (was: Re: Solutions for Bad Romaniza
From: Leonardo Castro

2a. Re: why don't velar obstruents spontaneously labialise?
From: And Rosta

3.1. Re: ideology & linguistics
From: George Corley
3.2. Re: ideology & linguistics
From: Leonardo Castro
3.3. Re: ideology & linguistics
From: Mike S.
3.4. Re: ideology & linguistics
From: Leonardo Castro
3.5. Re: ideology & linguistics
From: Logan Kearsley
3.6. Re: ideology & linguistics
From: Mike S.
3.7. Re: ideology & linguistics
From: Ph. D.

4a. Re: Chengyu / Set Phrases (was: Yemoran Expressions)
From: Padraic Brown
4b. Re: Chengyu / Set Phrases (was: Yemoran Expressions)
From: Eugene Oh
4c. Re: Chengyu / Set Phrases (was: Yemoran Expressions)
From: Logan Kearsley

5.1. Re: ideology & linguistics (was: Re: [CONLANG] Solutions for Bad Rom
From: Jim Henry

6a. Re: "Untranslatable words"
From: Douglas Koller


Messages

1.1. Re: politics and prescriptivism (was: Re: Solutions for Bad Romaniza
Posted by: "George Corley" gacor...@gmail.com 
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2012 2:54 pm ((PDT))

On Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 2:43 PM, And Rosta  wrote:

> George Corley, On 17/10/2012 19:38:
>
>> On Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 12:18 PM, Jim Henry
>>  wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 11:52 AM, David McCann>> com >
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> There's a lot of leftist and populist
>>>> ideology in 20th century linguistics, especially that emanating from
>>>> the USA.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I'm not sure that descriptivism per se is politically left and
>>> prescriptivism is politically right.  But perhaps thinking that all
>>> lexicography ought to be prescriptive, or ought only to be
>>> descriptive, is correlated with left or right politics.
>>>
>>
>> I really don't think that descriptivist/prescriptivist has any
>> relationship
>> to partisan politics at all.
>>
> [...]
>
>> I'm sure someone could dig up a survey on this, but I have a suspicion
>> that
>> descriptivist/prescriptivist distinctions won't break down in any clearly
>> partisan way.
>>
>
> I'd understood Jim's point to be that prescriptivism correlates with
> conservatism, authoritarianism and reverence for the Establishment (i.e.
> the economic and political Haves, especially those who've been Haves for
> generations), which are characteristics correlated with the political
> right. That doesn't mean your typical Republican is a prescriptivist or
> your typical Democrat isn't. But it does mean that if you know somebody's a
> prescriptivist, and you're offered equal odds on them being politically
> right or left, bet on right.
>

I turned up a Language Log piece by Geoff Nunberg that gives an excellent
historical review of "language criticism" in politics:
http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3570


> (I will sheepishly confess to being a bit of a prescriptivist myself,
> militant scourge tho I am of most sorts of prescriptivism. My team of
> linguistics colleagues was once addressed by a manager (a former academic)
> to whose demesne we belonged who kept on talking about /fowkay/ (/f@UkaI/),
> _foci_, rather than /fowsay/ (/f@UsaI/) or _focuses_; this (plus other
> nonlinguistic things, I had better add in exculpation) had me in suppressed
> apoplexy so much that when the manager left the room I ejaculated
> vehemently and bitterly about our having to suffer being managed by
> somebody who says /fowkay/, whereupon with deep embarrassment I realized
> what a frightful act of hypocrisy and arrant prescriptivism I'd committed
> in front of my colleagues. I wonder if anybody has done a study of the
> psychology of the strange phenomenon that is prescriptivist rage.
>

We all have usages that bother us.  /foʊkaɪ/ wouldn't much bother me, since
I often will pronounce Latin < c > as /k/ in all positions just for fun.
 But there are other things.  No one is purely prescriptivist or purely
descriptivist in their daily lives.  They key is knowing when to shut up
and realize when your emotional reactions aren't important, or when
attempting to correct people will be futile.





Messages in this topic (46)

1.2. Re: politics and prescriptivism (was: Re: Soluti

[conlang] Digest Number 8848

[conlang]

en will prevail. 

Kou   




Messages in this topic (52)


4a. Re: "Untranslatable words"
Posted by: "A. da Mek" a.da_m...@ufoni.cz 
Date: Thu Oct 18, 2012 3:57 am ((PDT))

>>> Well, maybe Here's an amusing item from today's Huffington Post:
>>> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/nataly-kelly/untranslatable-words_b_1949795.html#slide=more255598

>>> 8. "Lítost is an untranslatable Czech word. ... I have looked in vain in
>>> other languages for an equivalent, though I find it difficult to imagine
>>> how anyone can understand the human soul without it"
>>> Some describe it as a combination of grief, sympathy, remorse, and 
>>> longing

>> I see no reason why it could not be simply translated as "pity".
>> "Je mi líto" (like German "Es tut mir Leid") means "I'm sorry".

> Well, forgive me, but "pity" does not evoke the plaintive wails of an 
> abandoned dog,

Yes, but IMO neither "lítost" evokes something like that.
If there is a word which evokes the wailing, I think that it is... 
"wailing". (Czech "kvílení")
In other words, I think that the problem with "lítost" it is not a matter of 
translating from Czech language, but form "Kunderisch" idiolect.

> One of the things I've noticed as an outsider looking in is a 
> preponderence of the word "genau" in conversation. Now, why don't I just 
> translate that as "exactly" or "absolutely" and have done with it? Well, 
> sure. But I don't pepper my English conversation with "exactly" in this 
> way -- it's too much.

It is the unsolvable question where is the border between the language and 
the culture.
Personally, I prefer tranlations more to the "word by word" side (if it is 
possible) than to the "how the native speaker of the target language would 
say it" approach. Why should I have the impression that it is a story about 
my kinsmen and narated by my kinsman? It is not so, and the unusual style 
gives the interesting outlandish feeling and allows to better understand the 
culture of the author.

> I can tell you that if I lived in Germany for longer than about twenty 
> minutes, I would assimilate and internalize this perceived usage

Genau! :-)
So I think that a reader of a translated novel or story will quickly get 
accustomed to literal translations, borrowings, calques and newly derived 
words.

>  Do you throw up your hands and plunk in the native word with a 
> three-paragraph annotation in the back (a "baozi" is a dumpling filled 
> with meat and/or vegetables, usually steamed in stackable bamboo steamers, 
> not to be confused with "jiaozi", which, although often translated into 
> English as "Chinese ravioli", is actually a misnommer because...)? Do you 
> pace endlessly with the espresso-and-cigarette induced frenzy of an 
> artiste, lamenting the lack of a word for a concept in the target 
> language?

This reminds me the problems with the translation od "jitrnice" a "jelito". 
Some dictionaries translate them as "white pudding" and "black pudding", but 
I was said to that it may be obsolete. The modern dictionary paraphrases it 
as "(plain hash-and-crumbs) sausage" and "black pudding (with pork blood and 
peeled barley), blood-sausage". In my conculture, they play an important 
role in the rituals of the Moon deities, white-sausage symbolising the lit 
crescent at the 1/6 and 5/6 phase and the black-sausage symbolizing the 
unlit crescent at the 2/6 and 4/6 phase. 





Messages in this topic (14)


5a. Re: outsider art
Posted by: "Nikolay Ivankov" lukevil...@gmail.com 
Date: Thu Oct 18, 2012 4:56 am ((PDT))

There have been a discussion or a well-elaborated manuscript on Dragon
language several months ago in the list. I don't remember the name of the
author - names and dates are the hardest for me - but it's possible to
check this thing in the conlang list.

On Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 9:38 PM, Padraic Brown  wrote:

> --- On Wed, 10/17/12, Wm Annis  wrote:
>
> > Apropos of nothing...
> >
> > So.  Who's the Henry Darger of conlanging?  Does
> > such a person exist?  How likely is it we'd even learn about
> > them if they did?
>
> Well, I don't think you'll find this person on this list for one thing! ;)

[conlang] Digest Number 8849

[conlang]

There are 2 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1.1. Re: politics and prescriptivism (was: Re: Solutions for Bad Romaniza
From: Roger Mills

2a. Re: Chengyu / Set Phrases (was: Yemoran Expressions)
From: Roger Mills


Messages

1.1. Re: politics and prescriptivism (was: Re: Solutions for Bad Romaniza
Posted by: "Roger Mills" romi...@yahoo.com 
Date: Thu Oct 18, 2012 9:50 am ((PDT))

--- On Thu, 10/18/12, Adam Walker  wrote:
On Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 6:55 PM, Leonardo Castro wrote:

> By the way, as I'm not a native English speaker, I could "compose" my
> accent
> in order to maximize contrasts, e.g., I could pronounce the "w" of
> "weather"
> in a different way from the "wh" of "whether", as happens in some dialects.
> For the pair* for/four*, I should then search how to pronounce them
> differently
> (maybe /fOr/ and /fO@r/). I wonder if the resulting accent would be easy
> to
> understand for most native English speakers.
>

I couldn't say whether it would be easy to understand until I'd heard it in
action, but I can tell you for sure that it would sound odd to *everyone*,
since everyone would be hearing you do things that were wrong in their own
dialect.  So you'd probably end up being corrected in different ways by
absolutely everyone you met.


Agreed, but... many of us still maintain the w- ~ wh- contrast (or am I the 
last of a breed?). OTOH, Leonardo's "for/four" exs. sound odd to me. 
Technically, in careful speech at least, they are homonyms--though the "o" 
sound is a bit lower than [o] but also a bit higher than [O], and there may or 
may not be a [@] off-glide. But most of the time "for" is [f@r], while "four" 
is never reduced to [f@r].





Messages in this topic (53)


2a. Re: Chengyu / Set Phrases (was: Yemoran Expressions)
Posted by: "Roger Mills" romi...@yahoo.com 
Date: Thu Oct 18, 2012 10:01 am ((PDT))

--- On Thu, 10/18/12, David McCann  wrote:
Roger Mills  wrote:

> The only "idiom" I recall being taught in beginning Spanish (and not
> much afterwards even in college) was "tomar el pelo (a alguien)"
> equiv. to Engl. "to pull (someone's) leg".

I'm always surprised that these things aren't featured more. I have a
lovely old copy of the University of Chicago Spanish dictionary that
lists 1000 of them! It notes American variants as well, such as the
Mexican "hacerle guaje a uno" in this case.
===

I have a paperback ed. of the U.Chi. dictionary, it doesn't list idioms 
separately, but does give "guaje" (a word I've never encountered)--apparently 
it is strictly an Americanism; the first meanings cited are 'a sp. of gourd' 
plus 'vessel or bowl made from a gourd.' Then, 'fool, simpleton', and the idiom 
you cite is given (but not marked Mexican).





Messages in this topic (24)





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[conlang] Digest Number 8850

[conlang]

ne you met.
> 
>
> Agreed, but... many of us still maintain the w- ~ wh- contrast (or am 
> I the last of a breed?). OTOH, Leonardo's "for/four" exs. sound odd to me.
> Technically, in careful speech at least, they are homonyms--though the "o"
> sound is a bit lower than [o] but also a bit higher than [O], and 
> there may or may not be a [@] off-glide. But most of the time "for" is 
> [f@r], while "four" is never reduced to [f@r].
>

You are not the last.  I'm a fair bit your junior IIRC, but I maintain the
distinction, though I have been mock for it by students and other children
(oh and my baby brother's wife).

Adam





Messages in this topic (57)

1.3. Re: politics and prescriptivism (was: Re: Solutions for Bad Romaniza
Posted by: "Leonardo Castro" leolucas1...@gmail.com 
Date: Thu Oct 18, 2012 6:17 pm ((PDT))

2012/10/18 Roger Mills 

> --- On Thu, 10/18/12, Adam Walker  wrote:
>
> Agreed, but... many of us still maintain the w- ~ wh- contrast (or am I
> the last of a breed?). OTOH, Leonardo's "for/four" exs. sound odd to me.
> Technically, in careful speech at least, they are homonyms--though the "o"
> sound
>

Indeed, I remember seeing the transcription /fO@/ in an old British
dictionary for both "for" and "four", but not the rhotic /fO@r/. However,
someone told me once that there are accents very similar to RP that are
rhotic, so I concluded that there is /fO@r/ somewhere. In any case, It
seems that there is another way of contrasting "for" and "four":

"The horse–hoarse merger is the merger of the vowels /ɔ/ and /o/ before
historic /r/, making pairs of words like *horse/hoarse*, *for/four*, *
war/wore*, *or/oar*, *morning/mourning* etc.
homophones<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homophone>
."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English-language_vowel_changes_before_historic_r

By the way, I have read in a Physics book written in English that the words
"ferromagnetic" and "ferrimagnetic" are not completely suitable speakers
because they have exactly the same pronunciation, although they were
created (in France, I think) to contrast two phenomena. But an Englishman
has told me that they do sound different from each other in his accent
(allegedly RP). As a non-native, it would be more difficult not to
pronounce them different from each other.

Maybe my current accent already tends to include more contrast than most
native accents; I can not see the "o" in "got" and not to pronounce it
rounded, and "here" is hardly different from /hi@r/.





Messages in this topic (57)


2a. Re: Chengyu / Set Phrases (was: Yemoran Expressions)
Posted by: "Adam Walker" carra...@gmail.com 
Date: Thu Oct 18, 2012 10:14 am ((PDT))

My UofC has an idioms section between the Spanish-English and
English-Spanish sections.

Adam

On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 12:01 PM, Roger Mills  wrote:

>  --- On Thu, 10/18/12, David McCann  wrote:
> Roger Mills  wrote:
>
> > The only "idiom" I recall being taught in beginning Spanish (and not
> > much afterwards even in college) was "tomar el pelo (a alguien)"
> > equiv. to Engl. "to pull (someone's) leg".
>
> I'm always surprised that these things aren't featured more. I have a
> lovely old copy of the University of Chicago Spanish dictionary that
> lists 1000 of them! It notes American variants as well, such as the
> Mexican "hacerle guaje a uno" in this case.
> ===
>
> I have a paperback ed. of the U.Chi. dictionary, it doesn't list idioms
> separately, but does give "guaje" (a word I've never
> encountered)--apparently it is strictly an Americanism; the first meanings
> cited are 'a sp. of gourd' plus 'vessel or bowl made from a gourd.' Then,
> 'fool, simpleton', and the idiom you cite is given (but not marked Mexican).
>





Messages in this topic (26)

2b. Re: Chengyu / Set Phrases (was: Yemoran Expressions)
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" elemti...@yahoo.com 
Date: Thu Oct 18, 2012 1:48 pm ((PDT))

--- On Thu, 10/18/12, Douglas Koller  wrote:

> From: Douglas Koller 
> Subject: Re: [CONLANG] Chengyu / Set Phrases (was: Yemoran Expressions)
> To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
> Date: Thursday, October 18, 2012, 3:38 AM
> > Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2012 07:14:48
&

[conlang] Digest Number 8851

[conlang]

There are 15 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Yardish Grammar
From: Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
1b. Re: Yardish Grammar
From: Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
1c. Re: Yardish Grammar
From: Logan Kearsley
1d. Re: Yardish Grammar
From: Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
1e. Re: Yardish Grammar
From: Logan Kearsley
1f. Re: Yardish Grammar
From: George Corley
1g. Re: Yardish Grammar
From: Padraic Brown
1h. Re: Yardish Grammar
From: Nikolay Ivankov

2a. Extensible Language Codes?
From: Logan Kearsley
2b. Re: Extensible Language Codes?
From: Logan Kearsley
2c. Re: Extensible Language Codes?
From: Rebecca Bettencourt
2d. Re: Extensible Language Codes?
From: Michael Everson

3a. Re: some metathesis with vowel loss
From: Alex Fink

4. standard dialect (was: ideology & linguistics)
From: J. 'Mach' Wust

5.1. Re: ideology & linguistics
From: And Rosta


Messages

1a. Re: Yardish Grammar
Posted by: "Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews" goldyemo...@gmail.com 
Date: Thu Oct 18, 2012 10:34 pm ((PDT))

Can their be fictional grammar forms in conlangs, I want Yardish to have 
some, but don't know if that's possible.
Emerging poet
Pen Name Mellissa Green
Budding novelist
tweet me



GreenNovelist

blog


www.theworldofyemora.wordpress.com


- Original Message - 
From: "George Corley" 
To: 
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2012 1:28 AM
Subject: Re: Yardish Grammar


>I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.  Please elaborate.
>
> On Fri, Oct 19, 2012 at 12:26 AM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <
> goldyemo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Can Yardish or any conlang have fictional grammar forms like personal
>> verbs?
>> Emerging poet
>> Pen Name Mellissa Green
>> Budding novelist
>> tweet me
>>
>>
>>
>> GreenNovelist
>>
>> blog
>>
>>
>> www.theworldofyemora.wordpress.com
>> 





Messages in this topic (11)

1b. Re: Yardish Grammar
Posted by: "Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews" goldyemo...@gmail.com 
Date: Thu Oct 18, 2012 10:44 pm ((PDT))

A personal verb is a verb that applies to a person by name, like Anoxia 
walked down the street, walked is the personal verb, since is named.
Emerging poet
Pen Name Mellissa Green
Budding novelist
tweet me



GreenNovelist

blog


www.theworldofyemora.wordpress.com


- Original Message - 
From: "Logan Kearsley" 
To: 
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2012 1:32 AM
Subject: Re: Yardish Grammar


> On 18 October 2012 23:26, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
>  wrote:
>> Can Yardish or any conlang have fictional grammar forms
>
> If by "fictional" you mean "not occurring in any known natural
> language", then yes, of course.
>
>> like personal verbs?
>
> And for that you'll have to explain what the heck you mean by
> "personal verbs" in this context.
>
> -l. 





Messages in this topic (11)

1c. Re: Yardish Grammar
Posted by: "Logan Kearsley" chronosur...@gmail.com 
Date: Thu Oct 18, 2012 10:49 pm ((PDT))

On 18 October 2012 23:44, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
 wrote:
> A personal verb is a verb that applies to a person by name, like Anoxia
> walked down the street, walked is the personal verb, since is named.

Do you mean verbs that conjugate or otherwise inflect differently for
proper names than for other kinds of subjects, or verbs that can only
ever be used with reference to one named person?
Either one makes logical sense, so sure, you could have them, but the
first seems much more *usable*.

-l.





Messages in this topic (11)

1d. Re: Yardish Grammar
Posted by: "Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews" goldyemo...@gmail.com 
Date: Thu Oct 18, 2012 10:51 pm ((PDT))

Yes, these verbs reflect differently for proper names.
Emerging poet
Pen Name Mellissa Green
Budding novelist
tweet me



GreenNovelist

blog


www.theworldofyemora.wordpress.com


- Original Message - 
From: "Logan Kearsley" 
To: 
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2012 1:49 AM
Subject: Re: Yardish Grammar


> On 18 October 2012 23:44, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
>  wrote:
>> A personal verb is a verb that applies to a person by name, like Anoxia
>> walked down the street, walked is the personal verb, since is named.
> 
> Do you mean verbs that conjugate or otherwise inflect differently for
> proper names than for other kinds of subjects, or v

[conlang] Digest Number 8852

[conlang]

There are 8 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Yardish Grammar
From: Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
1b. Re: Yardish Grammar
From: Roger Mills
1c. Re: Yardish Grammar
From: Padraic Brown
1d. Re: Yardish Grammar
From: Daniel Bowman
1e. Re: Yardish Grammar
From: Patrick Dunn
1f. Re: Yardish Grammar
From: Tony Harris
1g. Re: Yardish Grammar
From: Jim Henry

2a. Re: Fw: Creating Racist Terms
From: Roger Mills


Messages

1a. Re: Yardish Grammar
Posted by: "Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews" goldyemo...@gmail.com 
Date: Fri Oct 19, 2012 5:33 am ((PDT))

Description is my weakness. The verb form applies to proper names. I don't 
understand your questions. I also have difficulty in communication, like 
explaining things.
Emerging poet
Pen Name Mellissa Green
Budding novelist
tweet me



GreenNovelist

blog


www.theworldofyemora.wordpress.com


- Original Message - 
From: "Padraic Brown" 
To: 
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2012 6:59 AM
Subject: Re: Yardish Grammar


> --- On Fri, 10/19/12, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews 
>  wrote:
>
>> A personal verb is a verb that
>> applies to a person by name, like Anoxia
>> walked down the street, walked is the personal verb, since
>> is named.
>
> So does each person have her own conjugation? or is there simply a form
> to be used with any personal name? If the former, does the individual
> get to choose her own morphology or is it bestowed by some arcane
> priesthood? Is it bad form to use someone else's morphology? Can 
> morphology
> be bequeathed to an heir like a family treasure? Or is it placed in the
> mathom along with the busts and trophies of the ancestors? Or are there
> related forms that circulate among families, so that you can tell what
> clan someone is from just by the way people talk about her? How elaborate
> are the forms and how distinct from each other are they? Are they related
> in some way to the individual's name? Do you still have to specify the
> person's name when using these personal verb forms? Are these obligatory
> in this culture or optional?
>
> Again: elaborate please! One line questions and one line responses are, as
> others have said already, very frustrating. Especially from someone who
> advertises herself as a "budding novelist"! Or are you trying to corner 
> the
> market on the piconovel?
>
> Padraic
>
>> Emerging poet
>> Pen Name Mellissa Green
>> Budding novelist
>> tweet me
>>
>>
>>
>> GreenNovelist
>>
>> blog
>>
>>
>> www.theworldofyemora.wordpress.com
>>
>>
>> - Original Message - 
>> From: "Logan Kearsley" 
>> To: 
>> Sent: Friday, October 19, 2012 1:32 AM
>> Subject: Re: Yardish Grammar
>>
>>
>> > On 18 October 2012 23:26, Nicole Valicia
>> Thompson-Andrews
>> > 
>> wrote:
>> >> Can Yardish or any conlang have fictional grammar
>> forms
>> >
>> > If by "fictional" you mean "not occurring in any known
>> natural
>> > language", then yes, of course.
>> >
>> >> like personal verbs?
>> >
>> > And for that you'll have to explain what the heck you
>> mean by
>> > "personal verbs" in this context.
>> >
>> > -l.
>> 





Messages in this topic (18)

1b. Re: Yardish Grammar
Posted by: "Roger Mills" romi...@yahoo.com 
Date: Fri Oct 19, 2012 6:09 am ((PDT))

--- On Fri, 10/19/12, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews  
wrote:
A personal verb is a verb that applies to a person by name, like Anoxia 
walked down the street, walked is the personal verb, since is named.
Emerging poet
Pen Name Mellissa Green
Budding novelist
tweet me


How would that differ from "the cat walked down the street" and/or "Fluffy 
[cat's name] walked down the street" ?

Or for personifications of otherwise inanimate of imaginary things. Kash has 
the concept of a spirit called "Father Forest"-- he does not move, but if you 
encounter him, you die. Thus, "Father Forest captured him"


GreenNovelist

blog


www.theworldofyemora.wordpress.com


- Original Message - 
From: "Logan Kearsley" 
To: 
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2012 1:32 AM
Subject: Re: Yardish Grammar


> On 18 October 2012 23:26, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
>  wrote:
>> Can Yardish or any conlang have fictional grammar forms
>
> If b

[conlang] Digest Number 8853

[conlang]

;>
>>
>>
>> GreenNovelist
>>
>> blog
>>
>>
>> www.theworldofyemora.wordpress.com
>>
>>
>> - Original Message - From: "Padraic Brown" 
>> To: 
>> Sent: Friday, October 19, 2012 6:59 AM
>> Subject: Re: Yardish Grammar
>>
>>
>> > --- On Fri, 10/19/12, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
>> 
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >> A personal verb is a verb that
>> >> applies to a person by name, like Anoxia
>> >> walked down the street, walked is the personal
>> verb, since
>> >> is named.
>> >
>> > So does each person have her own conjugation? or is
>> there simply a form
>> > to be used with any personal name? If the former, does
>> the individual
>> > get to choose her own morphology or is it bestowed by
>> some arcane
>> > priesthood? Is it bad form to use someone else's
>> morphology? Can morphology
>> > be bequeathed to an heir like a family treasure? Or is
>> it placed in the
>> > mathom along with the busts and trophies of the
>> ancestors? Or are there
>> > related forms that circulate among families, so that
>> you can tell what
>> > clan someone is from just by the way people talk about
>> her? How elaborate
>> > are the forms and how distinct from each other are
>> they? Are they related
>> > in some way to the individual's name? Do you still have
>> to specify the
>> > person's name when using these personal verb forms? Are
>> these obligatory
>> > in this culture or optional?
>> >
>> > Again: elaborate please! One line questions and one
>> line responses are, as
>> > others have said already, very frustrating. Especially
>> from someone who
>> > advertises herself as a "budding novelist"! Or are you
>> trying to corner the
>> > market on the piconovel?
>> >
>> > Padraic
>> >
>> >> Emerging poet
>> >> Pen Name Mellissa Green
>> >> Budding novelist
>> >> tweet me
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> GreenNovelist
>> >>
>> >> blog
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> www.theworldofyemora.wordpress.com
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> - Original Message - From: "Logan Kearsley"
>> 
>> >> To: 
>> >> Sent: Friday, October 19, 2012 1:32 AM
>> >> Subject: Re: Yardish Grammar
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> > On 18 October 2012 23:26, Nicole Valicia
>> >> Thompson-Andrews
>> >> > 
>> >> wrote:
>> >> >> Can Yardish or any conlang have fictional
>> grammar
>> >> forms
>> >> >
>> >> > If by "fictional" you mean "not occurring in
>> any known
>> >> natural
>> >> > language", then yes, of course.
>> >> >
>> >> >> like personal verbs?
>> >> >
>> >> > And for that you'll have to explain what the
>> heck you
>> >> mean by
>> >> > "personal verbs" in this context.
>> >> >
>> >> > -l.
>> >>
>>





Messages in this topic (32)

1.7. Re: Yardish Grammar
Posted by: "Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews" goldyemo...@gmail.com 
Date: Fri Oct 19, 2012 9:05 pm ((PDT))

My strengths are I think dialogue. The language is Yardish, the main 
race
are Yemorans. The verb talked would take the proper names in D E and F. The
personal verb also applies where ever it is located.


Emerging poet
Pen Name Mellissa Green
Budding novelist
tweet me



GreenNovelist

blog


www.theworldofyemora.wordpress.com


- Original Message - 
From: "Jim Henry" 
To: 
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2012 11:49 AM
Subject: Re: Yardish Grammar


> On Fri, Oct 19, 2012 at 8:32 AM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
>  wrote:
>> Description is my weakness.
>
> I'm not great at description either; my first drafts tend to scant it
> and I have to add some more on second draft so my characters aren't
> standing around and talking in the proverbial white room.  What do you
> consider your strengths?  Narration?  Dialogue?  Worldbuilding?
> Characterization?
>
> It's not impossible that you could get around this by reframing the
> way you're trying to do it.  E.g., if you think you're better at
> dial

[conlang] Digest Number 8854

[conlang]

There are 2 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Unusual(?) Conlang Idea
From: G. van der Vegt
1b. Re: Unusual(?) Conlang Idea
From: Dustfinger Batailleur


Messages

1a. Unusual(?) Conlang Idea
Posted by: "G. van der Vegt" gijsstri...@gmail.com 
Date: Sat Oct 20, 2012 8:05 am ((PDT))

Has anyone ever designed a conlang where most (or all) morphemes fell
into two main classes, 'objects' and 'modifiers' and where you could
slot any modifier into any object, and you couldn't have any modifiers
or objects that stood alone without the other (though a 'null'
modifier or object could exist, of course.)

This might be a little abstract, so I'll try to give a few examples of
hypothetical morphemes for such a language in the section that
follows.

This hypothetical conlang has a CV structure, all object morphemes are
C_C_C_ and all modifier morphemes are _V_V_V (this is probably more
restrictive than if I decided to create a more full-fledged conlang,
but should suffice for the purposes of demonstration)

We have the following roots (leaving out the 'slots' in which the
other roots fit)

Objects:
knm - science, academics
mnr - Male human, usually of adult age
fwz - Female equivalent of mnr
hsp - Building
xpr - Soldier

Modifiers:

oei - young
eie - create/creation
uuo - teaching

---

Examples:

fowezi - girl, young woman (woman + young)
munuro - instructor/teacher (man + teaching)
hesipe - architecture or masonry (building + creation)
xupuro - drill instruction (soldier + teaching)
hesipe munuro - architecture instructor (building + creation ++ man + teaching)
kunumo - didactics (academics + teaching)

---

Et cetera. Does this make sense? Is this ANADEW? If it's not ANADEW,
would be it be human learnable? Since this would by nature be a
compound heavy language, it's probably going to be filled with
idiomatic combinations that might not make as easy or as much sense as
the examples I provided.





Messages in this topic (2)
________
1b. Re: Unusual(?) Conlang Idea
Posted by: "Dustfinger Batailleur" dustfinge...@gmail.com 
Date: Sat Oct 20, 2012 8:08 am ((PDT))

I'm pretty sure that that is an example of Semitic roots.

On 20 October 2012 11:05, G. van der Vegt  wrote:

> Has anyone ever designed a conlang where most (or all) morphemes fell
> into two main classes, 'objects' and 'modifiers' and where you could
> slot any modifier into any object, and you couldn't have any modifiers
> or objects that stood alone without the other (though a 'null'
> modifier or object could exist, of course.)
>
> This might be a little abstract, so I'll try to give a few examples of
> hypothetical morphemes for such a language in the section that
> follows.
>
> This hypothetical conlang has a CV structure, all object morphemes are
> C_C_C_ and all modifier morphemes are _V_V_V (this is probably more
> restrictive than if I decided to create a more full-fledged conlang,
> but should suffice for the purposes of demonstration)
>
> We have the following roots (leaving out the 'slots' in which the
> other roots fit)
>
> Objects:
> knm - science, academics
> mnr - Male human, usually of adult age
> fwz - Female equivalent of mnr
> hsp - Building
> xpr - Soldier
>
> Modifiers:
>
> oei - young
> eie - create/creation
> uuo - teaching
>
> ---
>
> Examples:
>
> fowezi - girl, young woman (woman + young)
> munuro - instructor/teacher (man + teaching)
> hesipe - architecture or masonry (building + creation)
> xupuro - drill instruction (soldier + teaching)
> hesipe munuro - architecture instructor (building + creation ++ man +
> teaching)
> kunumo - didactics (academics + teaching)
>
> ---
>
> Et cetera. Does this make sense? Is this ANADEW? If it's not ANADEW,
> would be it be human learnable? Since this would by nature be a
> compound heavy language, it's probably going to be filled with
> idiomatic combinations that might not make as easy or as much sense as
> the examples I provided.
>





Messages in this topic (2)





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[conlang] Digest Number 8855

[conlang]

There are 15 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1.1. w- ~ wh- (was: politics and prescriptivism)
From: R A Brown

2.1. Re: Yardish Grammar
From: Jim Henry
2.2. Re: Yardish Grammar
From: Padraic Brown
2.3. Re: Yardish Grammar
From: Alex Fink
2.4. Re: Yardish Grammar
From: MorphemeAddict

3a. Re: Unusual(?) Conlang Idea
From: Nikolay Ivankov
3b. Re: Unusual(?) Conlang Idea
From: Jack Steiner
3c. Re: Unusual(?) Conlang Idea
From: David Peterson
3d. Re: Unusual(?) Conlang Idea
From: Alex Fink

4a. Re: Extensible Language Codes?
From: Logan Kearsley
4b. Re: Extensible Language Codes?
From: BPJ

5a. Re: some metathesis with vowel loss
From: neo gu

6a. Verb Reform - Na'gifi Fasu'xa
From: Anthony Miles
6b. Re: Verb Reform - Na'gifi Fasu'xa
From: MorphemeAddict

7a. Re: Language control by religion (was: Re: Yardish and Dialects)
From: Anthony Miles


Messages

1.1. w- ~ wh- (was: politics and prescriptivism)
Posted by: "R A Brown" r...@carolandray.plus.com 
Date: Sat Oct 20, 2012 8:28 am ((PDT))

On 18/10/2012 18:12, Adam Walker wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 11:50 AM, Roger Mills wrote:
[snip]
>>
>> Agreed, but... many of us still maintain the w- ~ wh-
>> contrast (or am I the last of a breed?).

[snip]

> You are not the last.

Indeed not - not by a long way.  Even I down in the south
east of England maintain it  maintain it in certain formal
styles, though not in normal every day speech.

But up in Scotland it is still maintained AFAIK in the daily
speech of most (all?) Scots varieties of English.  Also I'm
given to understand that the pronunciation of wh- as [f] in
parts of east Scotland is still current.

-- 
Ray
==
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==
Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
There's none too old to learn.
[WELSH PROVERB]





Messages in this topic (59)


2.1. Re: Yardish Grammar
Posted by: "Jim Henry" jimhenry1...@gmail.com 
Date: Sat Oct 20, 2012 8:39 am ((PDT))

On Sat, Oct 20, 2012 at 12:04 AM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
 wrote:
> The verb form connects to the proper noun.

On Sat, Oct 20, 2012 at 12:05 AM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
 wrote:
> From: "Jim Henry" 
>> a proper name as the subject?  How would you say in Yardish, for
>> instance:
>>
>> a. The novelist slept.
>> b. Nicole slept.
>> c. The novelist talked to the dentist,.
>> d. Nicole talked to the dentist.
>> e. The novelist talked to Jennifer.
>> f. Nicole talked to Jennifer.

>  The verb talked would take the proper names in D E and F. The
> personal verb also applies where ever it is located.

So a transitive verb would "connect to" (I'm not quite sure what you
mean by that) the proper names "Nicole" or "Jennifer" whether they're
the subject or the object.  But not with an intransitive verb like
"slept" in sentence (b)?

By "connect to" do you mean that the verb root and the proper name are
compounded together into one word,  possibly with other affixes added,
as in "babysit" or "birdwatching" where the noun "baby" compounds with
the verb "to sit" and "bird" with "to watch"?  Or something else?

-- 
Jim Henry
http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/
http://www.jimhenrymedicaltrust.org





Messages in this topic (36)

2.2. Re: Yardish Grammar
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" elemti...@yahoo.com 
Date: Sat Oct 20, 2012 9:41 am ((PDT))

--- On Sat, 10/20/12, George Corley  wrote:

> > > The passive participle is problematic, not least
> because "shit" is
> > > intransitive (usually doesn't take an object).
> >
> > Well, it certainly can be intransitive. It can also
> take an object -- he
> > shat the place all up.
> 
> 
> Bad example, since you're essentially using a phrasal verb
> "to shit up" rather than just "to shit". 

He shat a brick. Midas no doubt shat gold. And when came the dreaded 
Hamster of Penwith, the knights did shit much poo, besoiling their 
trouseroons therewith.

Padraic

> Better would be the familiar
> expression "shit
> bricks", or, for those Game of Thrones fans out there,
> "Tywin Lannister
> shits gold."
> 





Messages in this topic (36)

2

[conlang] Digest Number 8856

[conlang]

e is
enclitic, then -- easy!

mek ten
runs man

mek o Shan
runs noble Shan --->

meko Shan
runs Shan




>
>
>  ?I shat
>> ?you shat
>> ?he/she shat
>>
>> passive participle: ?shat
>>
>
> _Shat_ is completely normal in Britain -- it's the only normal preterite
> and perfect form. (Not for the transitive _shit_ of _Are you shitting me?_,
> tho; that wd be e.g. _I had been shitted_.)
>
> --And.
>

I just remember as a kid hearing someone mention the act of a cow
depositing manure in the past tense -- "your cow shat all over my lawn" --
, and my family making fun of it as a particularly funny and hoity-toity
way of saying it.

I'm trying to think of a single instance of the past tense of "shit" on the
farm, and nothing springs to mind.  When I visit for Thanksgiving I'll have
to make it a point to conduct some linguistic experiments on my family.




-- 
Second Person, a chapbook of poetry by Patrick Dunn, is now available for
order from Finishing Line
Press<http://www.finishinglinepress.com/NewReleasesandForthcomingTitles.htm>
and
Amazon<http://www.amazon.com/Second-Person-Patrick-Dunn/dp/1599249065/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1324342341&sr=8-2>.





Messages in this topic (39)

1.3. Re: OT: past tense of a certain vulgar verb (was: Yardish Grammar)
Posted by: "Roger Mills" romi...@yahoo.com 
Date: Sun Oct 21, 2012 4:15 pm ((PDT))

The title of this thread really needs to be changed!!!

--- On Sun, 10/21/12, And Rosta  wrote:
Shat_ is completely normal in Britain -- it's the only normal preterite and 
pOTerfect form. (Not for the transitive _shit_ of _Are you shitting me?_, tho; 
that wd be e.g. _I had been shitted_.)
==
I don't think that's very common in the USSomeone has mentioned hearing it 
(with surprise) in farming country; and even though I grew up in sort-of 
farming country too, I don't recall ever hearing it, except maybe humorously by 
analogy with "sit, sat".  In fact, the first time I really recall hearing it 
(1960s) was on the famous (?) old LP recording of the "Farting Contest" (it 
belonged to a friend of mine; the contest was apparently held in Britain, as 
the announcer had a Brit. accent)-- between an Aussie ("who came over on a 
boatload of rotting cabbage") and Lord Windesmere. HIs Lordship was winning, 
until the Aussie made a final great effort to outdo him, and released more than 
just gas The announcer exclaimed, "Oooh! He shat!", which of course 
disqualified the poor Aussie.

Does anyone else remember that old LP? (I think the reverse side had some gay 
versions of popular songs; I remember in particular "I'm so horny for Ezio 
Pinza" sung to the tune of "I'm in love with a wonderful guy" (first line IIRC 
"I'm as corny as Kansas in August"), from "South Pacific"! think It also had a 
gay version of "Nature Boy".  So much for my trip down Memory Lane.

  





Messages in this topic (39)


2.1. Re: Creating Racist Terms
Posted by: "Anthony Miles" mamercu...@gmail.com 
Date: Sun Oct 21, 2012 1:12 pm ((PDT))

Has anyone suggested "ferries" from "feral" and maybe also "fairy"? That way, 
you're implying that the werewolves are uncivilized savages, the descendents of 
domestic dogs, possibly sexually deviant, fickle, and wimps. Yes, I know that 
isn't necessarily internally consistent, but that's typical of racist 
descriptions of the Other.





Messages in this topic (27)

2.2. Re: Creating Racist Terms
Posted by: "George Corley" gacor...@gmail.com 
Date: Sun Oct 21, 2012 1:16 pm ((PDT))

On Sun, Oct 21, 2012 at 3:12 PM, Anthony Miles  wrote:

> Has anyone suggested "ferries" from "feral" and maybe also "fairy"? That
> way, you're implying that the werewolves are uncivilized savages, the
> descendents of domestic dogs, possibly sexually deviant, fickle, and wimps.
> Yes, I know that isn't necessarily internally consistent, but that's
> typical of racist descriptions of the Other.
>

Presumably, she's creating a conlang, so puns like these won't necessarily
work.  If we were to talk about this for a modern fantasy in an alternate
version of the real world, it might work -- though I really wouldn't
characterize your standard werewolf as "fairy" or as a wimp.





Messages in this topic (27)
__

[conlang] Digest Number 8857

[conlang]

There are 9 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1.1. Re: Creating Racist Terms
From: A. da Mek
1.2. Re: Creating Racist Terms
From: Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
1.3. Re: Creating Racist Terms
From: Padraic Brown

2a. Re: speaking of odd romanizations
From: And Rosta

3.1. Re: Yardish Grammar
From: And Rosta

4a. Re: Crazy historical derivation: Decessive to completative
From: Padraic Brown
4b. Re: Crazy historical derivation: Decessive to completative
From: Douglas Koller
4c. Re: Crazy historical derivation: Decessive to completative
From: George Corley

5.1. Re: OT: past tense of a certain vulgar verb (was: Yardish Grammar)
From: David McCann


Messages

1.1. Re: Creating Racist Terms
Posted by: "A. da Mek" a.da_m...@ufoni.cz 
Date: Mon Oct 22, 2012 12:32 am ((PDT))

As a term of contempt applied to a Frenchman is "frog-eater",
so a derogatory term applied to a (were)wolf could be 
"littleRedRidingHood-eater".





Messages in this topic (30)

1.2. Re: Creating Racist Terms
Posted by: "Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews" goldyemo...@gmail.com 
Date: Mon Oct 22, 2012 12:36 am ((PDT))

But they're Yemorans, and although the werewolves are another race, nieither 
race has heard of Little Red Riding Hood. I'm sure Yemorans have fairy 
tales, I just haven't created them.
Emerging poet
Pen Name Mellissa Green
Budding novelist
tweet me



GreenNovelist

blog


www.theworldofyemora.wordpress.com


- Original Message - 
From: "A. da Mek" 
To: 
Sent: Monday, October 22, 2012 3:31 AM
Subject: Re: Creating Racist Terms


> As a term of contempt applied to a Frenchman is "frog-eater",
> so a derogatory term applied to a (were)wolf could be 
> "littleRedRidingHood-eater". 





Messages in this topic (30)

1.3. Re: Creating Racist Terms
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" elemti...@yahoo.com 
Date: Mon Oct 22, 2012 6:02 am ((PDT))

--- On Sun, 10/21/12, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews  
wrote:

> How doesn't this have anything to do with language-building or use?

Because it involves issues like the creation of a culture, *how* the 
culture uses the language and so forth. Just making a list of racist
terms does not really constitute "conlanging" as such.

I think if you are interested in pursuing the concultural aspects of
Yemora, its history, its ecology, its cultures and so forth, please join
us in the Conculture group at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/conculture/
It's very much like Conlang, and a lot of the same folks are there, but
the discussion is more focussed on world building and conculturing and
less on strictly linguistic issues as they are hereabouts.

Padraic

> Emerging poet
> Pen Name Mellissa Green
> Budding novelist
> tweet me
> 
> 
> 
> GreenNovelist
> 
> blog
> 
> 
> www.theworldofyemora.wordpress.com
> 
> 
> - Original Message - From: "Adam Walker" 
> To: 
> Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2012 11:33 PM
> Subject: Re: Creating Racist Terms
> 
> 
> > Only you can answe that. You are asking us to write
> your book for you.
> > Besides, this question has nothing to do with language
> building or
> > use.
> > Adam
> > 
> > On 10/21/12, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews 
> wrote:
> >> Slavery is for criminals, so comparing them to
> runaway slaves works perfect.
> >> 
> >> This is great. Saying that they drink the blood of
> children could work if
> >> they claim the blood helps them shift faster. This
> should be fun. So would
> >> the blood-drinking claim work for werewolf children
> also?
> >> Emerging poet
> >> Pen Name Mellissa Green
> >> Budding novelist
> >> tweet me
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> GreenNovelist
> >> 
> >> blog
> >> 
> >> 
> >> www.theworldofyemora.wordpress.com
> >> 
> >> 
> >> - Original Message -
> >> From: "George Corley" 
> >> To: 
> >> Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2012 5:10 PM
> >> Subject: Re: Creating Racist Terms
> >> 
> >> 
> >>> On Sun, Oct 21, 2012 at 3:56 PM, Anthony Miles
> 
> >>> wrote:
> >>> 
> >>>> It's not meant to be fair or accurate! But
> if any Yemoran societies
> >>>> practice slavery, comparing the werewolves
> to runaway slaves would be an
> >>>&g