Re: [Cooker] KDE-less Mandrake Install
> "M" == Mattias Eriksson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: M> I must agree with Locke on most of his points, even if I don't M> like to be as hard on you as he. Add me to the list ;) ... I haven't used KDE since Helix 1.0 mostly because of the issues Mattias raises. I have KDE2 installed, but until KDevelop is ported, it is not much use to me. I don't mind carrying qt2 or even offering KDE as an option for other users around here, but it would be nice if there was a bit more user-friendliness in the menus. M> ...they are too deep, if you only have the programs M> you use installed they are all in it's own subdir. And is it my imagination, or do I get a lot of things in the menu which are not installed? M> Another problem I mentioned above is the zillion programs doing M> the same thing... I have the same experience with novice users; anyone who knows the difference between multiple versions is probably not using a start menu anyway. I realize this is a KDE-dev thing and out of our scope here, but what I would like to see is to drop the whole concept of a system-wide menu. Instead, the default menu would be almost completely empty; to populate it, you open some grand selector panel that mirrors the structure of the package manager where you can see the structure of the menus and the RPM description of each tool. People could browse the structure and drag and drop only what they need. This solves two problems: It reduces start menu clutter, and it also removes that annoying exclusionist property of the start menu where what you see is what you must get; if the user chooses every item, it is then possible for the user to rearrange and delete any item as time goes on. Right now, (I haven't tried this in KDE2, so maybe I am out of line here) 90% of the start menu can only be changed by root. This could also be extended to solve another problem I have had since the days of fvwm and xfm: You could show all the binaries in /usr/local/bin (or /opt/bin or whatever) as under a virtual package so users can browse the locally installed software and add those to their start menu. Yes, I know you can do this by drag-and-drop from kfm, but a dedicated tool could also have options to try standard query commands such as "app --help" to help identify programs. M> If your favourite tool doesn't make it you should have used a M> more powerfull installation variant. Don't forget that people learn. They are actually quite good at learning. The failure of the Mac/Windows interface is that, while it is excellent for beginners, it does not grow with you, but grows against you. I have lost track of the number of 2-years-experience Windows users I have seen working with unmanageably huge start menus. Again, it is a KDE issue, but wouldn't it be neat if you could right click on the KEdit item and see an option that says "alternates", and when you select it, the menu item rolls around to the 'next best' alternative like the license plates on James Bond's Austin Martin? -- Gary Lawrence Murphy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: office voice/fax: 01 519 4222723 T(C)Inc Business Innovations through Open Source http://www.teledyn.com M:I-3 - Documenting the Linux kernel: http://kernelbook.sourceforge.net
Re: [Cooker] KDE-less Mandrake Install
Pixel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > "Bruce A. Locke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > [...] > > > install GNOME and not have any kde or qt packages installed. I do not > > need these packages as all the applications I deal with are gtk+/gnome > > based and I see no need to waste diskspace on kde/qt libs. > > pb is kdesu which is now in kdebase is required by many packages to get root. > we may fix this by using usermode, but time is getting short :-/ It's currently being done, as initiated by Warly. This can be done in time IMHO. -- Guillaume Cottenceau -- Distribution Developer for MandrakeSoft http://www.mandrakesoft.com/~gc/
Re: [Cooker] KDE-less Mandrake Install
Guillaume Rousse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Also sprach Pixel : > > pb is kdesu which is now in kdebase is required by many packages to get root. > > we may fix this by using usermode, but time is getting short :-/ > And what about shipping kdesu in his own package ? Pixel tried and failed to build some static kde libs, if I remember correctly? -- Guillaume Cottenceau -- Distribution Developer for MandrakeSoft http://www.mandrakesoft.com/~gc/
Re: [Cooker] KDE-less Mandrake Install
Guillaume Rousse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Also sprach Pixel : > > pb is kdesu which is now in kdebase is required by many packages to get root. > > we may fix this by using usermode, but time is getting short :-/ > And what about shipping kdesu in his own package ? try to build kdesu without kdelibs and tell me about it! (tried, it is huge and ugly), better use old kdesu from kde1 in 7.1
Re: [Cooker] KDE-less Mandrake Install
Also sprach Pixel : > pb is kdesu which is now in kdebase is required by many packages to get root. > we may fix this by using usermode, but time is getting short :-/ And what about shipping kdesu in his own package ? -- Guillaume Rousse Murphy's law : If anything can go wrong, it will. O'Tool's commentary : Murphy was an optimist.
Re: [Cooker] KDE-less Mandrake Install
"Bruce A. Locke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: [...] > install GNOME and not have any kde or qt packages installed. I do not > need these packages as all the applications I deal with are gtk+/gnome > based and I see no need to waste diskspace on kde/qt libs. pb is kdesu which is now in kdebase is required by many packages to get root. we may fix this by using usermode, but time is getting short :-/
Re: [Cooker] KDE-less Mandrake Install
I must agree with Locke on most of his points, even if I don't like to be as hard on you as he. About kdesu, I must say that I like to se a gtk alternative but can accept a qt-only su. But currently I have kde installed mostly because of kdesu, I don't think this is a good solution. The other thing that I think is a bigger problem is the menues, I didn't know that it was a KDE standard and I dont care about that (I'm dont hate everything just because it's marked KDE... ;) ). They are too deep, if you only have the programs you use installed they are all in it's own subdir. OK, if you have the full installation, then it might make more sense... i don't know. But wouldn't it be possible to have a viritual menu system, that then maps to teh KDE/GNOME standards. It also would make it easy for the users to change the dir structure... OK, I explain my ideas a little better: Right now the packages are marked Amusements/Arcade or something like that, then you generate a real menu from that and put it in the Amusements/Arcade sub menu. I suggest to add a layer to this and add some rules to this, that might say that Amusements/Arcade should go to another directory, like in the gnome case it might go to Games/Arcade or something. This way it would be easier for me to flaten the menues and still take advantages of the nice menu system. Another problem I mentioned above is the zillion programs doing the same thing... I must admit that it's nice to have my favourite tool installed automaticly, and it might not be done if you didn't add everything! But I look at my girlfriend that's only have been using linux for about a year, she doesn't have a clue what to use unless I show her. And she complained to me that she couldn't find anything in the menues. The problem she had was that there is too many simmilar programs. I suggest that automatic installation installs a set tools that provide desired functionality, no duplicats. If your favourite tool doesn't make it you should have used a more powerfull installation variant. To this you could add a new installation alternative, that let's the user select what kind of tools he would like to use KDE/GNOME/Tk/X or what ever criterias you can find. //Snaggen At 03 October, 2000 Bruce A. Locke wrote: > > Hello... > > I was wondering if it was possible in the current version of cooker to > install GNOME and not have any kde or qt packages installed. I do not > need these packages as all the applications I deal with are gtk+/gnome > based and I see no need to waste diskspace on kde/qt libs. > > I know with Mandrake 7.1 I had to force the removal of QT and various KDE > libs because parts of DrakConf had needless dependencies on them. (I > don't understand why Mandrake uses kdesu and doesn't bother using a gnome > alternative for gnome desktops) > > Also, will this version make it easy to remove the "menu" package? I > detest the KDE menu structure being forced upon GNOME. The menus are too > deep and lots of worthless stuff is placed in the menus. I would like to > install helix gnome without having to spend a half hour "de-kde"fying a > system when I explicity told the installer I wanted GNOME, and not > KDE. (if I have kde checked off, I do not want any of KDE installed... is > that too difficult?) BTW, has anyone tried a helix gnome install on 7.2 > beta 3 yet? > > Also I have noticed there is something called QTCups? does this mean I > will be forced to have QT installed just to print? > > Please CC: me as I am offlist. > > Thanks for your time > > -- > Bruce A. Locke > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > "The Internet views censorship as damage and routes around it" > www.eff.org www.peacefire.org > -- Mattias Eriksson E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tvistevägen 26 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 907 36 UMEA Tel:090-198800 SWEDEN 070-5636769 'I don't fight for a cause Hemsida: http://www.acc.umu.se/~snaggen I fight for the fight' PGP: http://www.acc.umu.se/~snaggen/snaggen.asc
[Cooker] KDE-less Mandrake Install
Hello... I was wondering if it was possible in the current version of cooker to install GNOME and not have any kde or qt packages installed. I do not need these packages as all the applications I deal with are gtk+/gnome based and I see no need to waste diskspace on kde/qt libs. I know with Mandrake 7.1 I had to force the removal of QT and various KDE libs because parts of DrakConf had needless dependencies on them. (I don't understand why Mandrake uses kdesu and doesn't bother using a gnome alternative for gnome desktops) Also, will this version make it easy to remove the "menu" package? I detest the KDE menu structure being forced upon GNOME. The menus are too deep and lots of worthless stuff is placed in the menus. I would like to install helix gnome without having to spend a half hour "de-kde"fying a system when I explicity told the installer I wanted GNOME, and not KDE. (if I have kde checked off, I do not want any of KDE installed... is that too difficult?) BTW, has anyone tried a helix gnome install on 7.2 beta 3 yet? Also I have noticed there is something called QTCups? does this mean I will be forced to have QT installed just to print? Please CC: me as I am offlist. Thanks for your time -- Bruce A. Locke [EMAIL PROTECTED] "The Internet views censorship as damage and routes around it" www.eff.org www.peacefire.org
