Re: [Cooker] Re: [CHRPM] mozilla-1.1-0.beta.1mdk
i don't think so . any real statistical data to show that you're right? :-) bye, gabor On Thu, 2002-08-01 at 12:32, David Walser wrote: Most people choose US as their locale. -- That's life for you, said McDunn. Someone always waiting for someone who never comes home. Always someone loving something more than that thing loves them. And after awhile you want to destroy whatever that thing is, so it can't hurt you no more. -- R. Bradbury, The Fog Horn
Re: [Cooker] Re: [CHRPM] mozilla-1.1-0.beta.1mdk
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 gabor wrote: | i don't think so . | | any real statistical data to show that you're right? :-) | | bye, | gabor | | On Thu, 2002-08-01 at 12:32, David Walser wrote: | |Most people choose US as their locale. | Well, for paying customers (which is surely what matters), IIRC, Deno's stats on mandrakeclub.com showed that this is overwhelmingly true, and in fact, I think it might even have shown that more subscribers came from US than all the others together. Whether all those from US choose US as their locale is another matter ... I don't know what the stats are for boxed sets? In the end, I guess those who pay the most money should have to do the least customisation. I think the real solution is for the americans to choose a real paper format. Buchan - -- |Registered Linux User #182071-| Buchan MilneMechanical Engineer, Network Manager Cellphone * Work+27 82 472 2231 * +27 21 8828820x121 Stellenbosch Automotive Engineering http://www.cae.co.za GPG Key http://ranger.dnsalias.com/bgmilne.asc 1024D/60D204A7 2919 E232 5610 A038 87B1 72D6 AC92 BA50 60D2 04A7 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE9SmEZrJK6UGDSBKcRAsFbAKCDFJngEZ4ZIMs/VwjCWWlmshYRJACfdM+H ESwz+3rl4UkljCiU65MhNY4= =PFin -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Cooker] Re: [CHRPM] mozilla-1.1-0.beta.1mdk
On Friday 02 August 2002 05:38 am, Buchan Milne wrote: Whether all those from US choose US as their locale is another matter ... Yes, we pretty much have to. After all, you couldn't find A4 paper over here even if your life depended on it. I think the real solution is for the americans to choose a real paper format. True. Americans also need to switch to the metric system. Neither one will ever happen. You STILL can't find a tape measure with centimeters on it or a ruler without inches, and hardly anyone knows how long a kilometer is. I haven't even begun to figure out their liquid measurement system, and I moved to the US 7 years ago. -- -- Igor
Re: [Cooker] Re: [CHRPM] mozilla-1.1-0.beta.1mdk
On Wed, 2002-07-31 at 23:05, Vincent Meyer, MD wrote: On Wednesday 31 July 2002 04:02 pm, Brad Felmey wrote: On Wed, 2002-07-31 at 14:46, Steve Fox wrote: On Wed, 2002-07-31 at 13:22, Brad Felmey wrote: The argument is still valid. If I choose US, I expect US everywhere, not just where it wasn't convenient to implement. So write a patch to the installer to configure every application that doesn't bother to read your locale. It needs to be more abstract than that. It needs to do so any time the locale is changed, not just during install. Hmmm... I'd have to ask - how often, once a system is set up and configured for a user does the locale settings actually change? EVERY installation needs to have a locale set when it's set up, so it makes sense to do something with this at install time. I would guess that less than a fraction of a percent of the systems will have this change. Granted, changing it once is a lot nicer than changing it in a number of different places when it changes, but from the standpoint of most usability for the least effort, setting it on install without worrying about propagating the change if it is changed makes sense. Multiple foreign users and/or LTSP come to mind. -- Brad Felmey
Re: [Cooker] Re: [CHRPM] mozilla-1.1-0.beta.1mdk
On Thu, 2002-08-01 at 03:31, David Walser wrote: It would make even more sense for people to know ahead of time what they were getting, and have an easy way to change it. Not confusing your users isn't counter-intuitive at all :o) Well, as someone else said, this is more a problem with annoying programs that don't read locales than anything else. As has been explained there's no simple way for Mandrake to fix the problem in a way satisfactory to everyone, since patching every non-compliant program to check locales on run is far too much work for the Mandrake team to do, so given that we are including applications which don't do all they should, someone is always going to be annoyed. (If we go back to Letter for Mozilla, that's fine for you as someone who selects USA for his locale, but what about the larger number of us who choose somewhere else for our locale but would still get Letter paper size in mozilla? It's just someone else having the problem then.) -- adamw
Re: [Cooker] Re: [CHRPM] mozilla-1.1-0.beta.1mdk
On Wednesday 31 July 2002 22:07, Steve Fox wrote: I was hoping for a miracle that 1.1 would fix the radio button problem. But, alas, 'tis not meant to be. Must just be a weird gtk+ thing or something. For me this problem got fixed with galeon-1.2.5-3mdk, mozilla-1.1-0.beta-1mdk. Galeon no longer crashes here. But I guess this means nothing because before there were people too, for which Galeon didn't crash on radio buttons. Cheers, Andreas
Re: [Cooker] Re: [CHRPM] mozilla-1.1-0.beta.1mdk
--- Adam Williamson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, as someone else said, this is more a problem with annoying programs that don't read locales than anything else. As has been explained there's no simple way for Mandrake to fix the problem in a way satisfactory to everyone, since patching every non-compliant program to check locales on run is far too much work for the Mandrake team to do, They don't have to patch the apps to check locales. They could just have an app that manually changes the settings. It wouldn't be much work at all. so given that we are including applications which don't do all they should, someone is always going to be annoyed. (If we go back to Letter for Mozilla, that's fine for you as someone who selects USA for his locale, but what about the larger number of us who choose somewhere else Most people choose US as their locale. for our locale but would still get Letter paper size in mozilla? Ideally not, but they shouldn't be patching it to A4 either. __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com
Re: [Cooker] Re: [CHRPM] mozilla-1.1-0.beta.1mdk
On Thu, 2002-08-01 at 16:32, David Walser wrote: They don't have to patch the apps to check locales. They could just have an app that manually changes the settings. It wouldn't be much work at all. When / how would this app get run? Most people choose US as their locale. This I disagree with; as I said earlier, I expect more people choose US as their locale than any other *single locale*, but I also there are more in total who don't choose US than who do - and I don't know of many places outside US/Canada where Letter size paper is used. -- adamw
[Cooker] Re: [CHRPM] mozilla-1.1-0.beta.1mdk
--- Frederic Crozat [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --=-=-= Name: mozilla Relocations: (not relocateable) Version : 1.1 Vendor: MandrakeSoft Release : 0.beta.1mdk Build Date: Wed Jul 31 18:04:11 2002 Install date: (not installed) Build Host: bi.mandrakesoft.com Group : Networking/WWWSource RPM: (none) Size: 33077586 License: MPL Packager: Mandrake Linux Team http://www.mandrakeexpert.com URL : http://www.mozilla.org Summary : Mozilla, open-source web browser Description : Mozilla is an open-source web browser, designed for standards compliance, performance and portability. --=-=-= * Wed Jul 31 2002 Frederic Crozat [EMAIL PROTECTED] 1.1-0.beta.1mdk - Release 1.1beta Yeah, you're awesome! - Regenerate patches 7, 23 - Update source8 since chrome registry has changed name - Remove patches 28, 30 (merged upstream) - Remove libc++mem hack (and update source10), it has been merged upstream - Clean triggers (Giuseppe) - Patches 0, 1 6 are back (remove Debug menu entries) - Patch42 (Giuseppe): set A4 as default format for printing I don't understand this! Could this be locale dependent? - Patch43 (Giuseppe): Fix problem with time font and MathML - Patch44 45 (Giuseppe): enable freetype2 backend by default -- http://www.linux-mandrake.com/en/cookerdevel.php3 __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com
Re: [Cooker] Re: [CHRPM] mozilla-1.1-0.beta.1mdk
--- Frederic Crozat [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - Patch42 (Giuseppe): set A4 as default format for printing I don't understand this! Could this be locale dependent? No, sorry :(( So the default locale in Mandrake is United States, where the default paper size is US Letter, yet the default paper size in many places in Mandrake is A4. Do you see that this makes no sense? __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com
Re: [Cooker] Re: [CHRPM] mozilla-1.1-0.beta.1mdk
--- Frederic Crozat [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So the default locale in Mandrake is United States, where the default paper size is US Letter, yet the default paper size in many places in Mandrake is A4. Do you see that this makes no sense? Guiseppe, comments ? (this is his patch..) Thanks for looking into it, although this isn't just directed at mozilla. A4 is the default in KDE and OpenOffice.org also. __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com
Re: [Cooker] Re: [CHRPM] mozilla-1.1-0.beta.1mdk
Frederic Crozat [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: - Patch42 (Giuseppe): set A4 as default format for printing I don't understand this! Could this be locale dependent? No, sorry :(( So the default locale in Mandrake is United States, there's no default locale where the default paper size is US Letter, yet the default paper size in many places in Mandrake is A4. Do you see that this makes no sense? Guiseppe, comments ? (this is his patch..) maybe it's time to include debian libpaper :-)
Re: [Cooker] Re: [CHRPM] mozilla-1.1-0.beta.1mdk
--- Thierry Vignaud [EMAIL PROTECTED] So the default locale in Mandrake is United States, there's no default locale So when you start the installation it just randomly picks one? I don't think so. __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com
Re: [Cooker] Re: [CHRPM] mozilla-1.1-0.beta.1mdk
On Wed, 31 Jul 2002 18:37:07 +0200, David Walser wrote: --- Frederic Crozat [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --=-=-= Name: mozilla Relocations: (not relocateable) Version : 1.1 Vendor: MandrakeSoft Release : 0.beta.1mdk Build Date: Wed Jul 31 18:04:11 2002 Install date: (not installed) Build Host: bi.mandrakesoft.com Group : Networking/WWWSource RPM: (none) Size: 33077586 License: MPL Packager: Mandrake Linux Team http://www.mandrakeexpert.com URL : http://www.mozilla.org Summary : Mozilla, open-source web browser Description : Mozilla is an open-source web browser, designed for standards compliance, performance and portability. --=-=-= * Wed Jul 31 2002 Frederic Crozat [EMAIL PROTECTED] 1.1-0.beta.1mdk - Release 1.1beta Yeah, you're awesome! - Regenerate patches 7, 23 - Update source8 since chrome registry has changed name - Remove patches 28, 30 (merged upstream) - Remove libc++mem hack (and update source10), it has been merged upstream - Clean triggers (Giuseppe) - Patches 0, 1 6 are back (remove Debug menu entries) - Patch42 (Giuseppe): set A4 as default format for printing I don't understand this! Could this be locale dependent? No, sorry :(( -- Frédéric Crozat MandrakeSoft
Re: [Cooker] Re: [CHRPM] mozilla-1.1-0.beta.1mdk
On Wed, 31 Jul 2002 19:09:42 +0200, David Walser wrote: --- Frederic Crozat [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - Patch42 (Giuseppe): set A4 as default format for printing I don't understand this! Could this be locale dependent? No, sorry :(( So the default locale in Mandrake is United States, where the default paper size is US Letter, yet the default paper size in many places in Mandrake is A4. Do you see that this makes no sense? Guiseppe, comments ? (this is his patch..) -- Frédéric Crozat MandrakeSoft
Re: [Cooker] Re: [CHRPM] mozilla-1.1-0.beta.1mdk
David Walser [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: So when you start the installation it just randomly picks one? I don't think so. there's no real default in the sense one has to choose the locale. you've at least clicked on ok, there was no default we imposed you.
Re: [Cooker] Re: [CHRPM] mozilla-1.1-0.beta.1mdk
--- Thierry Vignaud [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: there's no real default in the sense one has to choose the locale. you've at least clicked on ok, there was no default we imposed you. Splitting hairs, but ok. Having a choice for paper size distribution-wide would be nice too. Maybe it could go in drakx/printerdrake when configuing printers. __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com
Re: [Cooker] Re: [CHRPM] mozilla-1.1-0.beta.1mdk
On Wed, 2002-07-31 at 13:03, Thierry Vignaud wrote: David Walser [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: So when you start the installation it just randomly picks one? I don't think so. there's no real default in the sense one has to choose the locale. you've at least clicked on ok, there was no default we imposed you. The argument is still valid. If I choose US, I expect US everywhere, not just where it wasn't convenient to implement. -- Brad Felmey
Re: [Cooker] Re: [CHRPM] mozilla-1.1-0.beta.1mdk
On Wed, 2002-07-31 at 13:22, Brad Felmey wrote: The argument is still valid. If I choose US, I expect US everywhere, not just where it wasn't convenient to implement. So write a patch to the installer to configure every application that doesn't bother to read your locale. -- Steve Fox http://k-lug.org
Re: [Cooker] Re: [CHRPM] mozilla-1.1-0.beta.1mdk
On Wed, 2002-07-31 at 14:46, Steve Fox wrote: On Wed, 2002-07-31 at 13:22, Brad Felmey wrote: The argument is still valid. If I choose US, I expect US everywhere, not just where it wasn't convenient to implement. So write a patch to the installer to configure every application that doesn't bother to read your locale. It needs to be more abstract than that. It needs to do so any time the locale is changed, not just during install. -- Brad Felmey
Re: [Cooker] Re: [CHRPM] mozilla-1.1-0.beta.1mdk
On Wed, 2002-07-31 at 15:02, Brad Felmey wrote: It needs to be more abstract than that. It needs to do so any time the locale is changed, not just during install. True. My point is that this is an application problem. Mandrake can't afford to fix every i18n-broken application that they ship, especially since it can be manually fixed. -- Steve Fox http://k-lug.org
Re: [Cooker] Re: [CHRPM] mozilla-1.1-0.beta.1mdk
--- Steve Fox [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: True. My point is that this is an application problem. Mandrake can't afford to fix every i18n-broken application that they ship, especially since it can be manually fixed. They do hundreds of other kinds of patches, why not? I'm willing to bet having the wrong paper size set is going to throw a lot of people off. Also, if you say they shouldn't be patching things for i18n/paper size, then the question is should they even be applying this patch to force Mozilla to A4? __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com
[Cooker] Re: [CHRPM] mozilla-1.1-0.beta.1mdk
I was hoping for a miracle that 1.1 would fix the radio button problem. But, alas, 'tis not meant to be. Must just be a weird gtk+ thing or something. -- Steve Fox http://k-lug.org
Re: [Cooker] Re: [CHRPM] mozilla-1.1-0.beta.1mdk
--- Vincent Meyer, MD [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Granted, changing it once is a lot nicer than changing it in a number of different places when it changes, but from the standpoint of most usability for the least effort, setting it on install without worrying about propagating the change if it is changed makes sense. Sure. Since most of the installer components are usable as applications later on, I'd assume that if they got it working through the installer, having it working through a drak-app wouldn't be that hard. __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com
Re: [Cooker] Re: [CHRPM] mozilla-1.1-0.beta.1mdk
On Wed, 2002-07-31 at 15:07, Steve Fox wrote: I was hoping for a miracle that 1.1 would fix the radio button problem. But, alas, 'tis not meant to be. Must just be a weird gtk+ thing or something. Ack, I forgot to say that this is in regard to Galeon crashing. -- Steve Fox http://k-lug.org
Re: [Cooker] Re: [CHRPM] mozilla-1.1-0.beta.1mdk
On Wed, 2002-07-31 at 15:18, David Walser wrote: They do hundreds of other kinds of patches, why not? Because changing the default is a lot easier than writing a patch to have the app confirm to your locale setting, which may change at any time after install. -- Steve Fox http://k-lug.org
Re: [Cooker] Re: [CHRPM] mozilla-1.1-0.beta.1mdk
--- Steve Fox [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Because changing the default is a lot easier than writing a patch to have the app confirm to your locale setting, which may change at any time after install. I'll agree with that. I ask 2 things then: - Just having a drak-app that changes their settings should be easier than patching the apps in question to automatically change with locale - Should the really be changing/patching any apps then, especially patching them to A4? __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com
Re: [Cooker] Re: [CHRPM] mozilla-1.1-0.beta.1mdk
On Wed, 2002-07-31 at 17:26, Thierry Vignaud wrote: I don't understand this! Could this be locale dependent? No, sorry :(( So the default locale in Mandrake is United States, there's no default locale OK, let's try this. US is the locale selected at first in DrakX; this makes sense because statistically out of all the possible *single locales* more users will probably choose US than anywhere else (though this is just a guess, does this match up with actual statistics?) However, more Mandrake users by far will come from countries which use SENSIBLE, STANDARD paper sizes (;), since pretty much everywhere but America uses the A-, B- etc size system, so it makes sense for A4 to be the default paper size for printing. It's counter-intuitive, but it actually makes sense. -- adamw
Re: [Cooker] Re: [CHRPM] mozilla-1.1-0.beta.1mdk
It would make even more sense for people to know ahead of time what they were getting, and have an easy way to change it. Not confusing your users isn't counter-intuitive at all :o) --- Adam Williamson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: OK, let's try this. US is the locale selected at first in DrakX; this makes sense because statistically out of all the possible *single locales* more users will probably choose US than anywhere else (though this is just a guess, does this match up with actual statistics?) However, more Mandrake users by far will come from countries which use SENSIBLE, STANDARD paper sizes (;), since pretty much everywhere but America uses the A-, B- etc size system, so it makes sense for A4 to be the default paper size for printing. It's counter-intuitive, but it actually makes sense. -- adamw __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com
Re: [Cooker] Re: [CHRPM] mozilla-1.1-0.beta.1mdk
On Wednesday 31 July 2002 04:02 pm, Brad Felmey wrote: On Wed, 2002-07-31 at 14:46, Steve Fox wrote: On Wed, 2002-07-31 at 13:22, Brad Felmey wrote: The argument is still valid. If I choose US, I expect US everywhere, not just where it wasn't convenient to implement. So write a patch to the installer to configure every application that doesn't bother to read your locale. It needs to be more abstract than that. It needs to do so any time the locale is changed, not just during install. Hmmm... I'd have to ask - how often, once a system is set up and configured for a user does the locale settings actually change? EVERY installation needs to have a locale set when it's set up, so it makes sense to do something with this at install time. I would guess that less than a fraction of a percent of the systems will have this change. Granted, changing it once is a lot nicer than changing it in a number of different places when it changes, but from the standpoint of most usability for the least effort, setting it on install without worrying about propagating the change if it is changed makes sense. V.
