RE: [Cooker] Mandrake and Winmodems
yeah, actually there seem to be a few .o files without corresponding .c files alright. -Original Message- From: Giuseppe Ghibò [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 08 August 2002 14:21 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Cooker] Mandrake and Winmodems O'Riordan, Kevin wrote: Smart link have winmodem drivers with source code included. Licence seems similar enough to gpl, in that it allows source code distribution and modified source code distribution as long as licence is included. Drivers are at http://www.smlink.com. Have tested them on my own machine with success (laptop with via board and integrated amr modem). Are you sure they don't include some binary only files (like for the Conexant based winmodems http://www.mbsi.ca/cnxtlindrv/). Bye. Giuseppe. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 04 August 2002 14:18 To: Cooker Mandrake Subject: [Cooker] Mandrake and Winmodems Dear Cooker Team, I want to raise an issue with the cooker team regarding Winmodems. I recommend Mandrake to everyone I know. As such I get calls to help with installs all the time. These people are ALWAYS encouraged by me to either buy ML or join the club. They almost always do once they see how great ML is. I would say that as the premiere desktop distro, a concerted effort should be made to support winmodems when possible and include all available drivers in the distro along with the tools to autodetect them and install as appropriate. I would say that at least 70-80% of my installs run into a winmodem problem. A newbie has no clue how to go to linmodems.org and get drivers/install etc. When these winmodems are detected, the installer simply suggests the cryptic please visit linmodems.org for more information or something to that effect. Why are the available winmodem drivers not simply included in the distro?? This would be a major plus if Mandrake added this and it would put it even further ahead of the other desktop oriented distros. This one sticking point has always concerned me and as I run into this problem more and more I thought this feature would be EXTREMELY useful to myself and many others who use/recommend ML. Thank you ALL for your hard work and dedication to making the best Linux distro possible but please can we make some progress in this area for 9.0?? Kind Regards, Jason Greenwood
Re: [Cooker] Mandrake and Winmodems: hiding source is totally bogus
On Saturday August 10 2002 12:22 pm, Leon Brooks wrote: On Fri, 9 Aug 2002 14:25, Giuseppe Ghibò wrote: In other cases, instead companies released binary only drivers but abandoned it (e.g. the ESS module for ESS based winmodems, or the Lexmark printer drivers) so they would work only on old kernels/distributions. That by itself looks like a fine justification for Mandrake's policy of `GPL only please'. I agree that trade secret issues can block a source release, but that is not the reason which the vast majority of manufacturers hoard their sources. Even NVidia could probably ask Linux-friendly SGI for ~~~ hehehehe... a better GLX licence, and get one. It would be interesting to send an OSS copy of GLX to NVidia and ask them if there are any other IP issues standing between them and a completely OSS set of drivers. Cheers; Leon ... and lose their Xbox contract with M$ ?? All the reasons hardware vendors give for holding source are disingenious at best ... bordering on insider, under the table, quasi leagal, amoral attitudes and behaviors. IOW's they're lyin' while makin excuses and back room deals. Also, Mandrake's position is, and should be IMO, according to this reasoning, http://www.mandrakeforum.org/article.php?sid=427lang=en -- Tom Brinkman Corpus Christi, Texas
Re: [Cooker] Mandrake and Winmodems: hiding source is totally bogus
On Sunday 11 August 2002 09:22 am, Tom Brinkman wrote: ... and lose their Xbox contract with M$ ?? And M$ will have to stop making Xboxes? Actually, they've got themselves locked in. Quite stupid, really, when you compare that to Sony (who makes all the chips themselves). Actually, I think the most likely scenario would be of Microsoft buying Nvidia. -- -- Igor
Re: [Cooker] Mandrake and Winmodems: hiding source is totally bogus
On Sun, 11 Aug 2002 22:52, Igor Izyumin wrote: Actually, I think the most likely scenario would be of Microsoft buying Nvidia. Argh! Don't even think about things like that! )-: Cheers; Leon
Re: [Cooker] Mandrake and Winmodems: hiding source is totally bogus
On Sunday August 11 2002 09:52 am, Igor Izyumin wrote: On Sunday 11 August 2002 09:22 am, Tom Brinkman wrote: ... and lose their Xbox contract with M$ ?? And M$ will have to stop making Xboxes? Actually, they've got themselves locked in. Quite stupid, really, when you compare that to Sony (who makes all the chips themselves). Actually, I think the most likely scenario would be of Microsoft buying Nvidia. Stupid ?? (let's keep it friendly, and this kind'a disscussion doesn't belong on this list anyhow). Sony makes chips ?? Sony sells their name, and it's not all that well deserved lately as their branded products (many they don't even make) for several years now have been substandard. Tradin on their name recognition. Both M$, Sony, and nVidia are tankin' in the world's markets, so I don't believe anybody's fixin to buy the other just yet. Could be (?)... I'm not a big fan of advertised (fake) quality, or stock brokers. Also, a coupl'a of the above have got'a lot'a legal problems too in their business dealngs. So I don't believe M$ is fixin to buy nVidia anytime soon. Sony's doin a dodge. Igor, please read the facts as set out http://www.mandrakeforum.org/article.php?sid=427lang=en You're on the losin end with your thinkin. I beg the pardon of the cooker regulars for even responding ... I'll go back to tryin to stay cooker current with a dialup. No problems (or any I've encountered that weren't already reported). Good work y'all, I like it. 9.0 is slick ;) -- Tom Brinkman Corpus Christi, Texas
Re: [Cooker] Mandrake and Winmodems: hiding source is totally bogus
On Fri, 9 Aug 2002 11:04, Igor Izyumin wrote: On Thursday 08 August 2002 07:52 pm, Leon Brooks wrote: No, I don't. But it _is_ a totally bogus excuse. Their competitors _will_ be clean-rooming their chips and disassembling their drivers anyway. I very much doubt that - it's too hard and too expensive. It's hard enough to write drivers, and even harder to disassemble them. It's easier to develop your own, I would think. But when you have full access to the source code, it's a different story. Strongly disagree. I've done this myself, and a heck of a lot of Linux kernel drivers are the result of similar hackery. Source code _does_ make things easier, but it doesn't tell you how the chip was assembled. However, a simple photomicrograph of the chip does do that, and a disassembly does tell you most of the things that full source code would. It can certainly tell you *how* things need to be done to make the chip work, even if not always *why*. Disassembly is not hard to do, there are tools (including free and Free) which make 99% of the task automatic. It's one of those if-you-outlaw-guns-then-only-outlaws-will-have-guns problems. As things stand, *only* their competitors have access to their `secrets' and not you or I, not their more-or-less friends! What could be a worse situation than that? Better to also give their allies access, no? Well, they won't really care; if their competitors do reverse engineer their drivers, they will pay double for the drivers and will be left with a technology that's a generation old. It's kinda like the joke about stealing computer blueprints... by the time you steal them, they're already outdated. Agree. The goal is to make it harder - it's just like security screws and warranty stickers on hardware. What, by a couple of days? Not significant. Some point-haired-boss moron lawyer makes that decision, not someone with their brains actually operating. Yes, but that's the reality. An OEM won't permit their techies to distribute drivers if it's not ok with the lawyerbots. Yes. Let's change that. Cheers; Leon
Re: [Cooker] Mandrake and Winmodems: hiding source is totally bogus
On Fri, 9 Aug 2002 14:25, Giuseppe Ghibò wrote: In other cases, instead companies released binary only drivers but abandoned it (e.g. the ESS module for ESS based winmodems, or the Lexmark printer drivers) so they would work only on old kernels/distributions. That by itself looks like a fine justification for Mandrake's policy of `GPL only please'. I agree that trade secret issues can block a source release, but that is not the reason which the vast majority of manufacturers hoard their sources. Even NVidia could probably ask Linux-friendly SGI for a better GLX licence, and get one. It would be interesting to send an OSS copy of GLX to NVidia and ask them if there are any other IP issues standing between them and a completely OSS set of drivers. Cheers; Leon
Re: [Cooker] Mandrake and Winmodems: hiding source is totally bogus
Leon Brooks wrote: On Fri, 9 Aug 2002 06:45, Igor Izyumin wrote: Sometimes, they don't have a choice. Yeah, like about once in every two blue moons. They may have trade secrets or something within the driver that would prevent it from being open-sourced. For example, if nVidia open-sourced their driver, their competitors could use their work for their own chips. Do you think they want that? No, I don't. But it _is_ a totally bogus excuse. Their competitors _will_ be clean-rooming their chips and disassembling their drivers anyway. It's one of those if-you-outlaw-guns-then-only-outlaws-will-have-guns problems. As things stand, *only* their competitors have access to their `secrets' and not you or I, not their more-or-less friends! What could be a worse situation than that? Better to also give their allies access, no? Some point-haired-boss moron lawyer makes that decision, not someone with their brains actually operating. Cheers; Leon IMHO, the fact is that sometimes the same company don't probably totally owns the code they include in the closed (or partially closed source) drivers. they ship. E.g. for NVidia I've read it's due to code written from SGI (GLX). Also other companies have claimed the same policy (e.g. the Matrox has the HAL library in closed source object binary only [and thus not included in XFree]). Others instead tried a different approach and let their drivers to be included open source in the main linux/XFree tree (e.g. Adaptec, Compaq for RAID). In other cases, instead companies released binary only drivers but abandoned it (e.g. the ESS module for ESS based winmodems, or the Lexmark printer drivers) so they would work only on old kernels/distributions. Bye. Giuseppe.
Re: [Cooker] Mandrake and Winmodems
Igor Izyumin wrote: On Thursday 08 August 2002 10:15 pm, Ben Reser wrote: That is not Mandrake's fault. Mandrake doesn't control the kernel. They just package it, include a few patches. Changing the driver model is something that will take the cooperation of the core kernel developers, especially Linus and Alan Cox. I'm not faulting Mandrake. I'm saying you can't compare it with Windows directly. I still think you're barking up the wrong tree for the issues. Mandrake has a policy that they don't ship binaries on the GPL CDs. I think this is a reasonable policy. They do ship binary drivers, depending on the license, in the commercial CD set. Yes, it is a reasonable policy. I don't own a CD set, so I can't say what the quality of it is (I am a silver Mandrakeclub member, though). Fact is most of the newbie users who will have difficultly installing these drivers probably are using the commercial CD sets. But even those that aren't the Mandrake Club has started packaging some based upon requests. For example you can now download RPMs for Nvidia drivers. Yes, although some packages in Mandrakeclub seem to be just links to the manufacturer's RPMs. These don't always work out of the box, from my experience (example: conexant HCF/HSF modems). AFAIK from what I tried with conexant modems requires an ACPI kernel (which is not the case of our latest). Bye. Giuseppe.
Re: [Cooker] Mandrake and Winmodems
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Le Vendredi 09 Août 2002 00:42, Brook Humphrey a écrit : On Thursday 08 August 2002 03:45 pm, Igor Izyumin wrote: As I said previously, you can't always expect open-source drivers, just like you can't expect every program to be free/open source. Drivers cost money to develop, and open-sourcing them is not always an option. Again complain about this to the companies. When was the last time windows included nvidia drivers. They include a generic frame buffer driver and if you want the other you have to install it. Wow mandrake does you one better if you buy the product they even include the drivers for you. They are already one step ahead of microsoft. If you are a hardware vendor, you may fear open-sourcing may reveal important things about how your hardware operates that competitors could copy, thus gaining an unfair competitive advantage. Back in the days of three- to five-year product cycles this was a valid argument. Today, the time your competitors' engineers would need to spend copying and understanding the copy is a substantial portion of the product cycle, time they are not spending innovating or differentiating their own product. Plagiarism is a trap you want your competitors to fall into. -- Eric Raymond. http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/writings/magic-cauldron/magic-cauldron.html CU CPHIL - -- La Loi n'a le droit de défendre que les actions nuisibles à la Société. Tout ce qui n'est pas défendu par la Loi ne peut être empêché, et nul ne peut être contraint à faire ce qu'elle n'ordonne pas. -- Déclaration des Droits de l'homme et du citoyen du 26 août 1789 - Art. 5. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE9VAGlYJwqltj/jHgRAoL/AJ9puD5NAEAoomSycfu3pmMhB5SyBACgkNvs JZaUCmcJhqvW7UOw8+eIgYc= =sHuA -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Cooker] Mandrake and Winmodems: hiding source is totally bogus
Leon Brooks wrote on Fri, Aug 09, 2002 at 08:52:30AM +0800 : They may have trade secrets or something within the driver that would prevent it from being open-sourced. For example, if nVidia open-sourced their driver, their competitors could use their work for their own chips. Do you think they want that? No, I don't. But it _is_ a totally bogus excuse. Their competitors _will_ be In the case of winmodems that is the reason. It's not bogus there. We don't have to like it, but it's true. Blue skies... Todd -- Todd Lyons -- MandrakeSoft, Inc. http://www.mandrakesoft.com/ UNIX was not designed to stop you from doing stupid things, because that would also stop you from doing clever things. -- Doug Gwyn Cooker Version mandrake-release-9.0-0.2mdk Kernel 2.4.18-21mdk msg69802/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [Cooker] Mandrake and Winmodems: hiding source is totally bogus
On Friday 09 August 2002 04:39 pm, Todd Lyons wrote: In the case of winmodems that is the reason. It's not bogus there. We don't have to like it, but it's true. Not only that, but they also don't want people fiddling with their drivers. Since software winmodems are basically soundcards that hook to the phone line, you could make them do a lot of possibly illegal things with the phone line. If the company released an open-source driver for them, they could potentially get their FCC certification revoked. The hardware vendor doesn't want extra liabilities. -- -- Igor
Re: [Cooker] Mandrake and Winmodems
On Thu, Aug 08, 2002 at 12:39:47PM -0500, Igor Izyumin wrote: [rant] Not including the driver in the distribution would mean that users will have to hunt them down, download, compile, and install them. These things are very annoying to do, especially when your modem is not working. Mandrake should really be more considerate to their users, and should at least try to work out an acceptable license with the driver's authors. The driver should DEFINITELY be included if the license permits it. The only reason users don't have to do this for Windows is because hardware manufacturers make their hardware work with generic windows drivers, Microsoft writes a driver for their hardware (probably after signing confidentiality agreements that would preclude an open source driver), or the manufacturer actually ships their own driver with the hardware. Most of the time even if one of the previous two occurs they still ship a driver. Very few hardware manufacturers ship drivers for Linux with their hardware. Some of them make them available via their website. I guess my point here is that nobody whines when Windows doesn't include every driver under the sun. They just use the driver made available with the hardware. Yet so many people here complain because Mandrake doesn't ship xyz driver for their hardware. Well the hardware manufacturers know that their drivers won't be integrated if they don't make source available. They've made a business decision. They've decided that they don't care very much about Linux support or that the few people who use Linux won't mind going looking for their drivers. So the way I see it is if you don't like the driver situation complain the the hardware manufacturers. Ultimately they are the ones responsible for making the driver available. They are the ones who have decided to make the drivers available under terms that are not really compatible with the Linux communities expectations. -- Ben Reser [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://ben.reser.org If your love has no hope of being welcomed do not voice it; for if it be silent it can endure, a guarded flame, within you. - The Wisdom of the Sands
Re: [Cooker] Mandrake and Winmodems
Igor Izyumin wrote on Thu, Aug 08, 2002 at 12:39:47PM -0500 : Also, about the nvidia drivers: they are some of the best drivers I have ever used. nVidia has the best 3D drivers out there. And could somebody please enlighten me about the usefulness of open-source drivers for a proprietary video card or modem, especially if these drivers come with an open-source wrapper (so that you can fix it when kernel changes break it)? And they are only provided to you by Mandrake on the Commercial Applications CDs. I can see binary only winmodem drivers being placed on the Commercial Apps CDs as well, but NOT in Main. Blue skies... Todd -- Todd Lyons -- MandrakeSoft, Inc. http://www.mandrakesoft.com/ UNIX was not designed to stop you from doing stupid things, because that would also stop you from doing clever things. -- Doug Gwyn Cooker Version mandrake-release-9.0-0.2mdk Kernel 2.4.18-21mdk msg69617/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [Cooker] Mandrake and Winmodems
On Thursday 08 August 2002 04:28 pm, Ben Reser wrote: Yet so many people here complain because Mandrake doesn't ship xyz driver for their hardware. I complain when they don't ship it on purpose, because of a political decision that could have been worked out with some effort. Well the hardware manufacturers know that their drivers won't be integrated if they don't make source available. They've made a business decision. They've decided that they don't care very much about Linux support or that the few people who use Linux won't mind going looking for their drivers. Sometimes, they don't have a choice. They may have trade secrets or something within the driver that would prevent it from being open-sourced. For example, if nVidia open-sourced their driver, their competitors could use their work for their own chips. Do you think they want that? So the way I see it is if you don't like the driver situation complain the the hardware manufacturers. Ultimately they are the ones responsible for making the driver available. They are the ones who have decided to make the drivers available under terms that are not really compatible with the Linux communities expectations. As I said previously, you can't always expect open-source drivers, just like you can't expect every program to be free/open source. Drivers cost money to develop, and open-sourcing them is not always an option. -- -- Igor
Re: [Cooker] Mandrake and Winmodems
On Thursday 08 August 2002 03:45 pm, Igor Izyumin wrote: As I said previously, you can't always expect open-source drivers, just like you can't expect every program to be free/open source. Drivers cost money to develop, and open-sourcing them is not always an option. Again complain about this to the companies. When was the last time windows included nvidia drivers. They include a generic frame buffer driver and if you want the other you have to install it. Wow mandrake does you one better if you buy the product they even include the drivers for you. They are already one step ahead of microsoft. -- -~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~- Brook Humphrey Mobile PC Medic, 420 1st, Cheney, WA 99004, 509-235-9107 http://www.webmedic.net, [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Holiness unto the Lord -~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-
Re: [Cooker] Mandrake and Winmodems: hiding source is totally bogus
On Fri, 9 Aug 2002 06:45, Igor Izyumin wrote: Sometimes, they don't have a choice. Yeah, like about once in every two blue moons. They may have trade secrets or something within the driver that would prevent it from being open-sourced. For example, if nVidia open-sourced their driver, their competitors could use their work for their own chips. Do you think they want that? No, I don't. But it _is_ a totally bogus excuse. Their competitors _will_ be clean-rooming their chips and disassembling their drivers anyway. It's one of those if-you-outlaw-guns-then-only-outlaws-will-have-guns problems. As things stand, *only* their competitors have access to their `secrets' and not you or I, not their more-or-less friends! What could be a worse situation than that? Better to also give their allies access, no? Some point-haired-boss moron lawyer makes that decision, not someone with their brains actually operating. Cheers; Leon
Re: [Cooker] Mandrake and Winmodems: hiding source is totally bogus
On Thursday 08 August 2002 07:52 pm, Leon Brooks wrote: No, I don't. But it _is_ a totally bogus excuse. Their competitors _will_ be clean-rooming their chips and disassembling their drivers anyway. I very much doubt that - it's too hard and too expensive. It's hard enough to write drivers, and even harder to disassemble them. It's easier to develop your own, I would think. But when you have full access to the source code, it's a different story. It's one of those if-you-outlaw-guns-then-only-outlaws-will-have-guns problems. As things stand, *only* their competitors have access to their `secrets' and not you or I, not their more-or-less friends! What could be a worse situation than that? Better to also give their allies access, no? Well, they won't really care; if their competitors do reverse engineer their drivers, they will pay double for the drivers and will be left with a technology that's a generation old. It's kinda like the joke about stealing computer blueprints... by the time you steal them, they're already outdated. The goal is to make it harder - it's just like security screws and warranty stickers on hardware. Some point-haired-boss moron lawyer makes that decision, not someone with their brains actually operating. Yes, but that's the reality. An OEM won't permit their techies to distribute drivers if it's not ok with the lawyerbots. -- -- Igor
Re: [Cooker] Mandrake and Winmodems
On Thursday 08 August 2002 05:42 pm, Brook Humphrey wrote: Again complain about this to the companies. When was the last time windows included nvidia drivers. They include a generic frame buffer driver and if you want the other you have to install it. Wow mandrake does you one better if you buy the product they even include the drivers for you. They are already one step ahead of microsoft. Do you think Mandrake should always be one step behind Microsoft? Then why not use Microsoft? Are you saying Microsoft should be the role model for Mandrake? And by the way, it's hell of a lot easier to install drivers under Microsoft's OSs than with Linux. When you can install any driver on Linux in about 10 minutes without using the console, then you can begin drawing lines between Linux and Windows. -- -- Igor
Re: [Cooker] Mandrake and Winmodems
On Thu, Aug 08, 2002 at 10:10:21PM -0500, Igor Izyumin wrote: Do you think Mandrake should always be one step behind Microsoft? Then why not use Microsoft? Are you saying Microsoft should be the role model for Mandrake? And by the way, it's hell of a lot easier to install drivers under Microsoft's OSs than with Linux. When you can install any driver on Linux in about 10 minutes without using the console, then you can begin drawing lines between Linux and Windows. That is not Mandrake's fault. Mandrake doesn't control the kernel. They just package it, include a few patches. Changing the driver model is something that will take the cooperation of the core kernel developers, especially Linus and Alan Cox. I still think you're barking up the wrong tree for the issues. Mandrake has a policy that they don't ship binaries on the GPL CDs. I think this is a reasonable policy. They do ship binary drivers, depending on the license, in the commercial CD set. Fact is most of the newbie users who will have difficultly installing these drivers probably are using the commercial CD sets. But even those that aren't the Mandrake Club has started packaging some based upon requests. For example you can now download RPMs for Nvidia drivers. Your argument is falling on deaf ears anyway. The policy is set. It's not going to change now. -- Ben Reser [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://ben.reser.org If your love has no hope of being welcomed do not voice it; for if it be silent it can endure, a guarded flame, within you. - The Wisdom of the Sands
Re: [Cooker] Mandrake and Winmodems
On Thursday 08 August 2002 10:15 pm, Ben Reser wrote: That is not Mandrake's fault. Mandrake doesn't control the kernel. They just package it, include a few patches. Changing the driver model is something that will take the cooperation of the core kernel developers, especially Linus and Alan Cox. I'm not faulting Mandrake. I'm saying you can't compare it with Windows directly. I still think you're barking up the wrong tree for the issues. Mandrake has a policy that they don't ship binaries on the GPL CDs. I think this is a reasonable policy. They do ship binary drivers, depending on the license, in the commercial CD set. Yes, it is a reasonable policy. I don't own a CD set, so I can't say what the quality of it is (I am a silver Mandrakeclub member, though). Fact is most of the newbie users who will have difficultly installing these drivers probably are using the commercial CD sets. But even those that aren't the Mandrake Club has started packaging some based upon requests. For example you can now download RPMs for Nvidia drivers. Yes, although some packages in Mandrakeclub seem to be just links to the manufacturer's RPMs. These don't always work out of the box, from my experience (example: conexant HCF/HSF modems). Your argument is falling on deaf ears anyway. The policy is set. It's not going to change now. I was mostly hoping to change some people's attitudes towards a few things, I don't really care much about changing policies. I know, this is probably not the right forum for such things (sorry :), but I think that sometimes people need to consider things from more than one viewpoint. -- -- Igor
Re: [Cooker] Mandrake and Winmodems
On Thursday 08 August 2002 09:07 pm, Igor Izyumin wrote: Your argument is falling on deaf ears anyway. The policy is set. It's not going to change now. Exactly the point. Not to mention that allot of us agree with the way it's being done. You want to know how it works in real life? This is an example. You can download the drivers from nvidia of whoever and they don't charge you but when mandrake or red hat or whoever aproaches them and says can we distibute your drivers with our product? The response for allot of these things is yes you can for 1$ for every time you give it out or whatever price they set. I'm not saying nvidia does this but alot of other companies do. So the policy is you have to pay to get them because it costs mandrake to give them out. Now is it fair to say gime gime gime when it costs mandrake to give it out and yet you want it for free. Well that is if it is to be put on the gpl cd's. I understand you pay for it. Please read this before you say anything back: http://www.water-cool.com/modules.php?op=modloadname=Newsfile=articlesid=17 It's called why we should not take linux for granted please do read it. I was mostly hoping to change some people's attitudes towards a few things, I don't really care much about changing policies. I know, this is probably not the right forum for such things (sorry :), but I think that sometimes people need to consider things from more than one viewpoint. -- -~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~- Brook Humphrey Mobile PC Medic, 420 1st, Cheney, WA 99004, 509-235-9107 http://www.webmedic.net, [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Holiness unto the Lord -~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-
