Re: [CREATE] Last round of comments: LGM Code of Conduct

[Femke Snelting]

Dear all,

Thank you again for your helpful comments, on- and off list.

- I agree that the reference to examples was awkwardly phrased and simple is 
better:
"Some examples: http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline_of_incidents";

- Replacing 'secure' by 'confident' works well:
"For Organisers: Feel confident. Organisers know the standard to which the LGM 
community holds itself, and what to do when an issue arises."

- Having a list of resources, how-to's:
Let's extend the organisers guide with a participant guide, and add links etc. 
there. I think it is better to leave this document as is, and continue to work 
on a practical guide that complements it. We'll start to work on this soon.

+ some small typos fixed.

If there are any more concrete suggestions, please add them to this thread 
today. We'll publish the text to the LGM websites as of tomorrow.


Femke


On 22/05/14 03:36, Chris Lilley wrote:

Hello Julien,

Wednesday, May 21, 2014, 6:08:36 PM, you wrote:


If we need to link to examples of harrasment, maybe



"In case you think these things do not happen:"



could be changed to:



"If one needs examples:"


I like that wording.

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Re: [CREATE] Last round of comments: LGM Code of Conduct

[a.l.e]

dear femke and all

first thanks for your work on this document!

the LGM CoC looks good to me.

... just one thing...

- I agree that the reference to examples was awkwardly phrased and 
simple is better:

"Some examples: http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline_of_incidents";


personally, i would prefer that line to be removed.


on the one side, i'm not sure that a list of examples needs to be there. 
the document seems to be clear enough!


on the other side, "geek" + "feminism" in the url and the fact that most 
(if not all) the examples are about women (i could not spot any about 
any other gender/sexual/skin/religious/you name it category that tend to 
be the target of "incidents"... but i have not read the whole page) does 
not match the idea that a CoC is there to protect each participant from 
any other "bad" participant. whether they are geek or not, males or 
women, or anything else they wish or happen to be.



for sure, not a reason to reject the CoC. but -- in my eyes -- a detail 
that might be worth to be fixed...

but you (plural) might also have very good reasons to keep that link...


have a nice day and, again, thanks for the fine document!
a.l.e
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Re: [CREATE] Last round of comments: LGM Code of Conduct

[Anders Brander]

Hi,

On Mon, 2014-05-26 at 13:06 +0200, a.l.e wrote:
> > "Some examples: http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline_of_incidents";
> personally, i would prefer that line to be removed.

I agree. It's a hall of shame and doesn't add anything positive to the
document.

/Anders
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Re: [CREATE] Last round of comments: LGM Code of Conduct

[John Haltiwanger]

... considering how much arguing goes on about the necessity of the
document in the first place, removing it (in my opinion) just supports the
entire attitude that this stuff should be swept under the rug in the first
place.

Maybe a wording change to "Some historical perspective" or so?

But removing it is just serving the same people who say it isn't an issue
in the first place (again, my opinion).



On Mon, May 26, 2014 at 1:39 PM, Anders Brander  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On Mon, 2014-05-26 at 13:06 +0200, a.l.e wrote:
> > > "Some examples:
> http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline_of_incidents";
> > personally, i would prefer that line to be removed.
>
> I agree. It's a hall of shame and doesn't add anything positive to the
> document.
>
> /Anders
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Re: [CREATE] Last round of comments: LGM Code of Conduct

[Femke Snelting]

Dear Ale, Anders,

As you can imagine your point of view has come up in the many discussions that 
lead to the formulation of this document.

The reason to have examples included, is that experience learns (from many 
other groups that have done CoCs and/or that have dealt with harassment), that 
concrete cases are necessary in order for a CoC to work. The argument being 
that it should be explicit from the start that harassment is a reality and that 
it should not be the problem of someone that feels harassed to convince others 
that such behaviour exists. Even when the general tone of the document is 
constructive, this  CoC exists for a reason.

So while all involved in the drafting of it agreed to have examples, we felt it 
was not up to us to formulate a list of specific cases. We decided to refer to 
the timeline of incidents, as it is the only well-documented page on harassment 
in relevant contexts that we are aware of.

The LGM-CoC addresses all types of harassment, and not only those that are 
gender related. While I think the 'geek' and 'feminism' in the url is a detail, 
I do share your concern that the examples are mainly gender related (it is not 
true that they are only about harassment against women).

At the end of the day we were more concerned by not having any examples at all, 
than to have only examples of a limited  scope. Of course, if there are other 
sources that you can suggest, it would be very good to include them.

best,


Femke


On 26/05/14 13:06, a.l.e wrote:

dear femke and all

first thanks for your work on this document!

the LGM CoC looks good to me.

... just one thing...


- I agree that the reference to examples was awkwardly phrased and simple is 
better:
"Some examples: http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline_of_incidents";


personally, i would prefer that line to be removed.


on the one side, i'm not sure that a list of examples needs to be there. the 
document seems to be clear enough!

on the other side, "geek" + "feminism" in the url and the fact that most (if not all) the examples 
are about women (i could not spot any about any other gender/sexual/skin/religious/you name it category that tend to be 
the target of "incidents"... but i have not read the whole page) does not match the idea that a CoC is there 
to protect each participant from any other "bad" participant. whether they are geek or not, males or women, 
or anything else they wish or happen to be.


for sure, not a reason to reject the CoC. but -- in my eyes -- a detail that 
might be worth to be fixed...
but you (plural) might also have very good reasons to keep that link...


have a nice day and, again, thanks for the fine document!
a.l.e
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Re: [CREATE] Last round of comments: LGM Code of Conduct

[Simon Budig]

Femke Snelting (snelt...@collectifs.net) wrote:
> Thank you again for your helpful comments, on- and off list.
> 
> - I agree that the reference to examples was awkwardly phrased and simple is 
> better:
> "Some examples: http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline_of_incidents";

While I do believe that it is useful to have something in the CoC that
counters the "doesn't happen in our circles" attitude I really wonder if
it is wise to reference something that is "out of our control". We would me
more flexible about what to reference when we'd point to a URL under the
libregraphicsmeeting.org domain, where we can have a collection of
ressources that even can be expanded/changed if new good ressources pop
up or other ressources go bad.

Bye,
Simon

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Re: [CREATE] Last round of comments: LGM Code of Conduct

[Gregory Pittman]

On 05/26/2014 08:46 AM, Simon Budig wrote:
> Femke Snelting (snelt...@collectifs.net) wrote:
>> Thank you again for your helpful comments, on- and off list.
>>
>> - I agree that the reference to examples was awkwardly phrased and simple is 
>> better:
>> "Some examples: http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline_of_incidents";
> 
> While I do believe that it is useful to have something in the CoC that
> counters the "doesn't happen in our circles" attitude I really wonder if
> it is wise to reference something that is "out of our control". We would me
> more flexible about what to reference when we'd point to a URL under the
> libregraphicsmeeting.org domain, where we can have a collection of
> ressources that even can be expanded/changed if new good ressources pop
> up or other ressources go bad.
> 

I think it can be safely said that we have gotten over the question
about having a CoC. Regardless of whatever it says, the CoC should be
clear about what kinds of behavior are inappropriate, and the
consequences of such behavior.

In both instances, it's better to try to delineate the categories
explicitly, yet allowing for judgmental leeway. We're not making the Ten
Commandments, but at the same time they do a good job of indicating
which behaviors are not proper without specific examples.

We also should keep in mind that there are potential issues of privacy
involved with examples based on real incidents. People who blog about
such things don't always consider this.

Greg

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Re: [CREATE] Last round of comments: LGM Code of Conduct

[Louis Desjardins]

2014-05-26 8:46 GMT-04:00 Simon Budig :

> Femke Snelting (snelt...@collectifs.net) wrote:
> > Thank you again for your helpful comments, on- and off list.
> >
> > - I agree that the reference to examples was awkwardly phrased and
> simple is better:
> > "Some examples: http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline_of_incidents
> "
>
> While I do believe that it is useful to have something in the CoC that
> counters the "doesn't happen in our circles" attitude I really wonder if
> it is wise to reference something that is "out of our control". We would me
> more flexible about what to reference when we'd point to a URL under the
> libregraphicsmeeting.org domain, where we can have a collection of
> ressources that even can be expanded/changed if new good ressources pop
> up or other ressources go bad.
>

+1

Louis

>
> Bye,
> Simon
>
> --
>   si...@budig.de  http://simon.budig.de/
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Re: [CREATE] Last round of comments: LGM Code of Conduct

[Louis Desjardins]

2014-05-26 8:39 GMT-04:00 Femke Snelting :

> Dear Ale, Anders,
>
> As you can imagine your point of view has come up in the many discussions
> that lead to the formulation of this document.
>
> The reason to have examples included, is that experience learns (from many
> other groups that have done CoCs and/or that have dealt with harassment),
> that concrete cases are necessary in order for a CoC to work. The argument
> being that it should be explicit from the start that harassment is a
> reality and that it should not be the problem of someone that feels
> harassed to convince others that such behaviour exists. Even when the
> general tone of the document is constructive, this  CoC exists for a reason.
>
> So while all involved in the drafting of it agreed to have examples, we
> felt it was not up to us to formulate a list of specific cases. We decided
> to refer to the timeline of incidents, as it is the only well-documented
> page on harassment in relevant contexts that we are aware of.
>
> The LGM-CoC addresses all types of harassment, and not only those that are
> gender related. While I think the 'geek' and 'feminism' in the url is a
> detail, I do share your concern that the examples are mainly gender related
> (it is not true that they are only about harassment against women).
>

Hi Femke,

I think the fact that "the examples are mainly gender related", while the
possible behaviors we want to avoid and act upon embraces a wider range of
threats, is at the heart of the concerns expressed here.

To sort this out, I would suggest we include a couple more examples that
are not gender specific (examples below).

I don’t know if this would make a consensus but I would hope so.

For one, I feel a bit uncomfortable with that only one link and after
having read the comments.

I also agree that the links should go towards a page we have control over
as Simon as pointed it.


> At the end of the day we were more concerned by not having any examples at
> all, than to have only examples of a limited  scope. Of course, if there
> are other sources that you can suggest, it would be very good to include
> them.
>

>From the Swansea University (UK) we have well written definitions and
examples followed by a section about what to do when being harassed or
feeling harassed that could inspire us for the "how to deal with issues".
https://www.swan.ac.uk/registry/academicguide/conductandcomplaints/dignityatworkandstudycombatingharassment/1introduction/


>From École Polytechnique de Montréal (English version of the document).
Especially the section about definition is of much interest in my view and
has the benefit of putting into a simple wording what is harassment without
going into all the details. Well worth reading, I think.
http://www.polymtl.ca/sg/docs_officiels/en/1310har3.htm

>From the London School of Economics
http://www.lse.ac.uk/intranet/staff/humanResources/reviewingAndRewarding/promotionAndReview/disciplinaryGrievance/harassment/examplesOfDifferentTypesOfHarassment.aspx

The American point of view
http://www.strategichr.com/shrsweb2/harassment_01.shtml

Some additionnal links:

The Ada Initiative
https://adainitiative.org/what-we-do/conference-policies/

The New York University Anti-Harassment Policy
http://www.nyu.edu/about/policies-guidelines-compliance/policies-and-guidelines/anti-harassment-policy-and-complaint-procedures.html

Python Software Foundation CoC
https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
and
https://us.pycon.org/2013/about/code-of-conduct/



>
> best,
>
>
> Femke
>
>
>
> On 26/05/14 13:06, a.l.e wrote:
>
>> dear femke and all
>>
>> first thanks for your work on this document!
>>
>> the LGM CoC looks good to me.
>>
>> ... just one thing...
>>
>>  - I agree that the reference to examples was awkwardly phrased and
>>> simple is better:
>>> "Some examples: http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline_of_incidents
>>> "
>>>
>>
>> personally, i would prefer that line to be removed.
>>
>>
>> on the one side, i'm not sure that a list of examples needs to be there.
>> the document seems to be clear enough!
>>
>> on the other side, "geek" + "feminism" in the url and the fact that most
>> (if not all) the examples are about women (i could not spot any about any
>> other gender/sexual/skin/religious/you name it category that tend to be
>> the target of "incidents"... but i have not read the whole page) does not
>> match the idea that a CoC is there to protect each participant from any
>> other "bad" participant. whether they are geek or not, males or women, or
>> anything else they wish or happen to be.
>>
>>
>> for sure, not a reason to reject the CoC. but -- in my eyes -- a detail
>> that might be worth to be fixed...
>> but you (plural) might also have very good reasons to keep that link...
>>
>>
>> have a nice day and, again, thanks for the fine document!
>> a.l.e
>> ___
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Re: [CREATE] Last round of comments: LGM Code of Conduct

[Louis Desjardins]

2014-05-26 10:04 GMT-04:00 Louis Desjardins :

> 2014-05-26 8:39 GMT-04:00 Femke Snelting :
>
>> Dear Ale, Anders,
>>
>> As you can imagine your point of view has come up in the many discussions
>> that lead to the formulation of this document.
>>
>> The reason to have examples included, is that experience learns (from
>> many other groups that have done CoCs and/or that have dealt with
>> harassment), that concrete cases are necessary in order for a CoC to work.
>> The argument being that it should be explicit from the start that
>> harassment is a reality and that it should not be the problem of someone
>> that feels harassed to convince others that such behaviour exists. Even
>> when the general tone of the document is constructive, this  CoC exists for
>> a reason.
>>
>> So while all involved in the drafting of it agreed to have examples, we
>> felt it was not up to us to formulate a list of specific cases. We decided
>> to refer to the timeline of incidents, as it is the only well-documented
>> page on harassment in relevant contexts that we are aware of.
>>
>> The LGM-CoC addresses all types of harassment, and not only those that
>> are gender related. While I think the 'geek' and 'feminism' in the url is a
>> detail, I do share your concern that the examples are mainly gender related
>> (it is not true that they are only about harassment against women).
>>
>
> Hi Femke,
>
> I think the fact that "the examples are mainly gender related", while the
> possible behaviors we want to avoid and act upon embraces a wider range of
> threats, is at the heart of the concerns expressed here.
>
> To sort this out, I would suggest we include a couple more examples that
> are not gender specific (examples below).
>
> I don’t know if this would make a consensus but I would hope so.
>
> For one, I feel a bit uncomfortable with that only one link and after
> having read the comments.
>
> I also agree that the links should go towards a page we have control over
> as Simon as pointed it.
>
>
>> At the end of the day we were more concerned by not having any examples
>> at all, than to have only examples of a limited  scope. Of course, if there
>> are other sources that you can suggest, it would be very good to include
>> them.
>>
>
> From the Swansea University (UK) we have well written definitions and
> examples followed by a section about what to do when being harassed or
> feeling harassed that could inspire us for the "how to deal with issues".
>
> https://www.swan.ac.uk/registry/academicguide/conductandcomplaints/dignityatworkandstudycombatingharassment/1introduction/
>
>
> From École Polytechnique de Montréal (English version of the document).
> Especially the section about definition is of much interest in my view and
> has the benefit of putting into a simple wording what is harassment without
> going into all the details. Well worth reading, I think.
> http://www.polymtl.ca/sg/docs_officiels/en/1310har3.htm
>

Yet another link, from our next year venue, the Toronto University (and
sublinks to the PDF file of the Student CoC)
http://www.viceprovoststudents.utoronto.ca/publicationsandpolicies/codeofstudentconduct.htm

Hope this helps.

Louis

>
> From the London School of Economics
>
> http://www.lse.ac.uk/intranet/staff/humanResources/reviewingAndRewarding/promotionAndReview/disciplinaryGrievance/harassment/examplesOfDifferentTypesOfHarassment.aspx
>
> The American point of view
> http://www.strategichr.com/shrsweb2/harassment_01.shtml
>
> Some additionnal links:
>
> The Ada Initiative
> https://adainitiative.org/what-we-do/conference-policies/
>
> The New York University Anti-Harassment Policy
>
> http://www.nyu.edu/about/policies-guidelines-compliance/policies-and-guidelines/anti-harassment-policy-and-complaint-procedures.html
>
> Python Software Foundation CoC
> https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
> and
> https://us.pycon.org/2013/about/code-of-conduct/
>
>
>
>>
>> best,
>>
>>
>> Femke
>>
>>
>>
>> On 26/05/14 13:06, a.l.e wrote:
>>
>>> dear femke and all
>>>
>>> first thanks for your work on this document!
>>>
>>> the LGM CoC looks good to me.
>>>
>>> ... just one thing...
>>>
>>>  - I agree that the reference to examples was awkwardly phrased and
 simple is better:
 "Some examples: http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/
 wiki/Timeline_of_incidents"

>>>
>>> personally, i would prefer that line to be removed.
>>>
>>>
>>> on the one side, i'm not sure that a list of examples needs to be there.
>>> the document seems to be clear enough!
>>>
>>> on the other side, "geek" + "feminism" in the url and the fact that most
>>> (if not all) the examples are about women (i could not spot any about any
>>> other gender/sexual/skin/religious/you name it category that tend to be
>>> the target of "incidents"... but i have not read the whole page) does not
>>> match the idea that a CoC is there to protect each participant from any
>>> other "bad" participant. whether they are geek or not, males or women, or
>>

Re: [CREATE] Last round of comments: LGM Code of Conduct

[ginger coons]

On 05/26/2014 09:19 AM, Louis Desjardins wrote:
2014-05-26 8:46 GMT-04:00 Simon Budig >:


Femke Snelting (snelt...@collectifs.net
) wrote:
> Thank you again for your helpful comments, on- and off list.
>
> - I agree that the reference to examples was awkwardly phrased
and simple is better:
> "Some examples:
http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline_of_incidents";

While I do believe that it is useful to have something in the CoC that
counters the "doesn't happen in our circles" attitude I really
wonder if
it is wise to reference something that is "out of our control". We
would me
more flexible about what to reference when we'd point to a URL
under the
libregraphicsmeeting.org  domain,
where we can have a collection of
ressources that even can be expanded/changed if new good
ressources pop
up or other ressources go bad.


+1


Count me as another +1 on that suggestion. I agree fully that having 
control over the page we're linking to is important. I'd even suggest 
that we could come up with a pretty thorough resource, documenting both 
things like the Geek Feminism Timeline of Incidents (which is one 
important type of resource), as well as documents of the kind suggested 
by Louis (which are regulatory, rather than descriptive). I do think, 
though, that it's important to include any public lists of incidents we 
can find, and attempt to expand our list beyond the currently-included 
one from Geek Feminism.


However, in addition to trying to find resources which discuss types of 
harassment beyond the gendered type described on the Geek Feminism Wiki, 
I do think it's important to note why that example exists, and why 
others may be more difficult to find. F/LOSS communities, at the moment, 
are fairly homogeneous. It's only in recent years that even a 
significant number of women have become involved. As F/LOSS in general, 
and the Libre Graphics community in particular become more and more 
diverse, I suspect that, rather than having perfect inclusion, we will 
see more incidents which involve people who are different in ways other 
than just their gender. But, up to this point, much of the documented 
harassment at F/LOSS events has been gender-based, which means that 
that's what a disproportionate amount of the current documentation covers.


Rather than feel bothered that one group is getting an excess of 
accommodation, I'd suggest that we all expand our net a little, look 
around to see if we can find documentation covering other types of 
harassment that have existed and been addressed in codes of conduct, and 
include those as well on a sort of omnibus page.


-ginger



Louis


Bye,
Simon

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