Re: [CREATE] [LGF] Some goals, aims or objectives !
On 6/6/10, Gregory Pittman wrote: > Something which I think is not so easy to describe is that, when we > consider the advantages that proprietary software has over the FOSS > projects, there is the important area of marketing and promotion. > Marketing is not synonymous with advertising, but involves the > accumulation of input from users and potential users about their needs, > habits, workflows, then taking that information to pull together > information to fill their knowledge void about what FOSS can do in > aggregate, but also give feedback to the projects about important > directions for projects to take, individually and > collectively/collaboratively. This is an interesting idea. However the problem is that one would have to monitor lots of existing communication channels: IRCs, mailing lists, bug trackers and so on. Not that it shouldn't be done, mind you :) Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org ___ CREATE mailing list CREATE@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/create
Re: [CREATE] [LGF] Some goals, aims or objectives !
On 6/6/10, Jon Nordby wrote: > In the short term, I would like to make a website that serves as a > common face for the serious libre graphics projects, describing what > they do, and what libre graphics is. This is more or less what Alessandro Rimoldi wanted to do with libregraphics.org. The plan was to make a simple static website that would have showcases for GIMP, Inkscape, Scribus, Blender et al. We discussed it last year at LGM. You might like to team up to work on this :) Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org ___ CREATE mailing list CREATE@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/create
Re: [CREATE] [LGF] Some goals, aims or objectives !
On 06/06/2010 01:16 AM, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote: On 6/5/10, Camille Bissuel wrote: So, ok, let's discuss it... To active contributors in LG projects : - Do you find this LGA project useful, and why ? - Said simply : Do you need a LGA, or is it a waste of time and energy in your point of view? For teachers who are on their tods -- yes, for the rest of the articulated cases -- no. It's good to have this kind of honest, frank commentary, and important as well. Something which I think is not so easy to describe is that, when we consider the advantages that proprietary software has over the FOSS projects, there is the important area of marketing and promotion. Marketing is not synonymous with advertising, but involves the accumulation of input from users and potential users about their needs, habits, workflows, then taking that information to pull together information to fill their knowledge void about what FOSS can do in aggregate, but also give feedback to the projects about important directions for projects to take, individually and collectively/collaboratively. I am guessing that there is often some element of disappointment when someone uses FOSS for their work, yet picks and chooses bits of each program to use, maybe not as efficiently as would seem to make sense, yet for the creative process one can see the logic. Promotion does not require a 6-figure budget, but to a large extent involves setting up a situation where we can encourage and even help various users make it be known that FOSS is can be used and is used for high-quality and professional work. Use-case scenarios could be an important part of an LGA website. The reality check here, as evidenced by Alexandre's comments, is that there is an important credibility that must be built between LGA and member projects, it isn't just with the outside world. Greg ___ CREATE mailing list CREATE@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/create
Re: [CREATE] [LGF] Some goals, aims or objectives !
I think that the LGA/LGF/LGwhatever should have a strong website. Even if it would not really do anything, at least it could provide a platform for communication etc. Jake On Sun, Jun 6, 2010 at 10:55 AM, Jon Nordby wrote: > On 5 June 2010 16:41, Camille Bissuel wrote: > > Hi Greg, > > I do agree with your view, and I do know that I won't achieve anything > alone > > or even with a small group of interested people... > Everyone here that has experience from free software projects, or > other volunteer based activities know that words and dreams are cheap. > In the end it boils down to what people actually do and work to make > happen. The LGA will be nothing and do nothing without people doing > it. I'm going to answer from that standpoint, what I want to _do_. > > > So, ok, let's discuss it... To active contributors in LG projects : > > - Do you find this LGA project useful, and why ? > > - How would it be useful for you on a daily basis ? > > - Said simply : Do you need a LGA, or is it a waste of time and energy in > > your point of view ? > In the short term, I would like to make a website that serves as a > common face for the serious libre graphics projects, describing what > they do, and what libre graphics is. > I can provide content, and Norwegian translation. However, I consider > building the website itself to be outside of my area of expertise. As > already stated, I have libre-graphics.org. I also have a VPS that we > can host the website on. I'll also work to market this website, and in > effect the association. > A formal organization is not a requirement for this. > > In the longer term (6-12 months), I might work to get a training DVD > for MyPaint published. This depends on a lot of external things > obviously, but if I'm able to do that I would do it under the LGA > umbrella and hopefully create a foundation to make it easy for other > libre graphics projects to get things published as well. > This might benefit from having a formal organization backing it. > > What will, or would you like to do under an LGA umbrella? > -- > Regards Jon Nordby - www.jonnor.com > ___ > CREATE mailing list > CREATE@lists.freedesktop.org > http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/create > ___ CREATE mailing list CREATE@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/create
Re: [CREATE] [LGF] Some goals, aims or objectives !
On 5 June 2010 16:41, Camille Bissuel wrote: > Hi Greg, > I do agree with your view, and I do know that I won't achieve anything alone > or even with a small group of interested people... Everyone here that has experience from free software projects, or other volunteer based activities know that words and dreams are cheap. In the end it boils down to what people actually do and work to make happen. The LGA will be nothing and do nothing without people doing it. I'm going to answer from that standpoint, what I want to _do_. > So, ok, let's discuss it... To active contributors in LG projects : > - Do you find this LGA project useful, and why ? > - How would it be useful for you on a daily basis ? > - Said simply : Do you need a LGA, or is it a waste of time and energy in > your point of view ? In the short term, I would like to make a website that serves as a common face for the serious libre graphics projects, describing what they do, and what libre graphics is. I can provide content, and Norwegian translation. However, I consider building the website itself to be outside of my area of expertise. As already stated, I have libre-graphics.org. I also have a VPS that we can host the website on. I'll also work to market this website, and in effect the association. A formal organization is not a requirement for this. In the longer term (6-12 months), I might work to get a training DVD for MyPaint published. This depends on a lot of external things obviously, but if I'm able to do that I would do it under the LGA umbrella and hopefully create a foundation to make it easy for other libre graphics projects to get things published as well. This might benefit from having a formal organization backing it. What will, or would you like to do under an LGA umbrella? -- Regards Jon Nordby - www.jonnor.com ___ CREATE mailing list CREATE@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/create
Re: [CREATE] [LGF] Some goals, aims or objectives !
On 6/5/10, Camille Bissuel wrote: > So, ok, let's discuss it... To active contributors in LG projects : > - Do you find this LGA project useful, and why ? I wouldn't speak of it in the present tense yet :) As for perspective, yes -- I do find this idea useful, but in very limited cases. I could elaborate on reasons why most needs mentioned at http://create.freedesktop.org/wiki/Libre_Graphics_Association don't really require an association, but I'll just say that the only real thing an association could do, as I see it, is assisting teachers. Because just being able to teach is often not enough to start courses. Where I live you can't just walk into a company that does IT courses and say "What ho, I know the Scribus thingie, find me a group of students for 50% share" :) You need some sort of proof with a nice name on top of it. Right now we cannot even agree on the name of the organization. If things are going same way when the organization actually is officially started, I fail to see how it might work efficiently. > - How would it be useful for you on a daily basis ? I don't see how belonging to any association is useful on a daily basis. It's not as if we were trying to start a trade union, eh? > - Said simply : Do you need a LGA, or is it a waste of time and energy in > your point of view? For teachers who are on their tods -- yes, for the rest of the articulated cases -- no. Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org ___ CREATE mailing list CREATE@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/create
Re: [CREATE] [LGF] Some goals, aims or objectives !
On 5 June 2010 15:41, Camille Bissuel wrote: > > So, ok, let's discuss it... To active contributors in LG projects : > - Do you find this LGA project useful, and why ? I hope that it will make running LGM every year more smooth, especially financially. I hope to use LGA as a destination to direct fund raising efforts towards in the same way I have persuaded TUG.org to run a "Libre Font Fund" - https://www.tug.org/fonts/librefontfund.html . TUG is wonderful, but, it is US centric and being tied too closely to one (typo)graphics application isn't ideal from a brand perspective. I could set up a "Libre Font Foundation," but since fonts only make sense when used in other graphics applications, being part of LGA makes more sense to me. It share the costs of administration, and the shared brand will help to bring attention from font people to libre graphics tools, and from libre graphics people to libre fonts. I can dream that, if I raised enough funds for libre fonts, LGA could hire type designers to work on libre fonts fulltime for some period. I have spoken to many libre font designers and proprietary professionals about prices, and it doesn't seem impossible. I hope that the LGA would provide a brand and a business network to aid the publication of libre licensed books and DVDs about libre graphics applications; that would be one way of fund raising. Similarly, a brand and business network for certification and training events. > - How would it be useful for you on a daily basis ? Daily seems a bit much, monthly seems more appropriate. ___ CREATE mailing list CREATE@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/create
Re: [CREATE] [LGF] Some goals, aims or objectives !
dear creators, as you may have guessed, i'm for a light-weight organization... > - Do you find this LGA project useful, and why ? > - How would it be useful for you on a daily basis ? > - Said simply : Do you need a LGA, or is it a waste of time and > energy in your point of view ? what should the LGA do? - i've done some booths and given workshops for LG and one question i've had to answer is: what is LG? it would make my life much easier if i could answer: an association (a foundation or anything else) and i'm representing it here. - i see the LGA as the key keeper of the LGM, the memory of the LGM. with louis and femke i had to deal with questions on visa, refunding travel costs, accommodation, translations... which could have been better handled if we had an organization looking at those problems and keeping recommendations on how to deal with it. i don't think that the LGA should organize the LGMs (imo, relying on local organizers and giving them all the freedom they want, has proven to be a good way to go). - the LGA should offer a platform with basic information and links to all of our projects. in as many languages as possible. as up to date as possible. (which probably means: as short as possible). - the create wiki and the create mailing list should be the coordination platform under the umbrella of the LGA. - the LGA should make sure that there are ways to get a certification for LG teachers and graphic designer. if it's easier, the certification may even not focus on the specific skills of the designer / teacher but more the software used: in many cases you just need a piece of paper and nobody will look at what is written on it! - the LGA may be used to collect funds for the projects under its umbrella (each LGM being one of the projects). if we continue on the path of the good work done until now, we don't really need much (any) money to run the LGA itself, so we may be able to act as an "invisible" intermediator. no large donation should go to the LGA for now, and there should be no fund raising for the LGA itself (all the donations would go to the foundation managing our finances and transferred to its final recipient(s). how should the LGA work? - the members of the projects under the LGA umbrella can be members of the LGA. people interested in the coordination among those projects can be in some sort of board of directors. - the "constitution" should be as short and general as possible. - the LGA should have an attractive name (and website)... but LG and L-G.org will do for now... what's your idea of the LGA? ciao a.l.e ___ CREATE mailing list CREATE@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/create
Re: [CREATE] [LGF] Some goals, aims or objectives !
Hi Greg, I do agree with your view, and I do know that I won't achieve anything alone or even with a small group of interested people... So, ok, let's discuss it... To active contributors in LG projects : - Do you find this LGA project useful, and why ? - How would it be useful for you on a daily basis ? - Said simply : Do you need a LGA, or is it a waste of time and energy in your point of view ? I'm convinced for myself (IMO, it's useful in a range of situations), but as Greg said, we don't want to find ourselves int he desert with an empty tank... Please go on and comment ! -- yagraph 2010/6/5 Gregory Pittman > On 06/05/2010 04:19 AM, Camille Bissuel wrote: > >> So everyone agree with all this goals ? >> I don't believe it ! >> >> There's another point to discuss too : when to start each goals ? >> Louis have suggested to start a network and to wait to be ready to set up >> any founding, which sound wise. >> > I don't have any objections to these various proposals, but as we say in > the US, it's hard to be against something that sounds like "Mom and apple > pie." > > Having been involved with a local group that began a nonprofit organization > (this one for increasing awareness of stroke), we rather painstaking went > through such a process of creating a charter, filing the appropriate papers, > and eventually cranking it through the governmental approval process, and > then found ourselves with a real organization having some really good ideas > about what we wanted to do in the form of where we saw ourselves in the > future, recognized as a source for various information, awash with the money > that would surely come flowing in, which we would carefully dole out for a > variety of worthy reasons. > > But then real reality hits, when you realize that all of this discussion, > planning, and final agreements about the charter and so forth are the > easiest part. > > As I mentioned in the BOF, we should also begin thinking about how it is > that LGA justifies its existence. First and foremost, do we know that the > major and minor projects think LGA is good for them? How? What would they > see an LGA accomplishing that they can't do themselves? How are they willing > to support LGA? Would LGA perhaps be some kind of threat to them? It's > problematic if they might only see LGA as a source of money, but otherwise > want to be left alone. > > And what would users appreciate about LGA? Especially considering that > users are a large silent unseen body of people out there, this could be > difficult to ascertain. > > Finally, what about donors? Donors who are constantly approached for > donations, who must choose where to spread out those donations that they do > make. There will be a certain amount of no-brainer donating that will come > from many sources in small amounts, but clearly we have to seek out and > satisfy the potential large donors, not just because of the amount of money > they might donate, but more importantly the magnifying effect this would > have. There is a reputation and attention that comes from getting a major > donation from a Google, or who knows, maybe even an Oracle or Adobe. Smaller > donors use these as cues that someone with the resources has vetted this > organization and found it worthy. Likewise, getting smaller donations from > well-respected open source foundations can be very valuable. > > You may think that this is too early to think about these issues, but if > you don't you may find yourselves out in the desert with an empty tank > before you realize it. > > > Greg > > ___ > CREATE mailing list > CREATE@lists.freedesktop.org > http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/create > ___ CREATE mailing list CREATE@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/create
Re: [CREATE] [LGF] Some goals, aims or objectives !
On 06/05/2010 04:19 AM, Camille Bissuel wrote: So everyone agree with all this goals ? I don't believe it ! There's another point to discuss too : when to start each goals ? Louis have suggested to start a network and to wait to be ready to set up any founding, which sound wise. I don't have any objections to these various proposals, but as we say in the US, it's hard to be against something that sounds like "Mom and apple pie." Having been involved with a local group that began a nonprofit organization (this one for increasing awareness of stroke), we rather painstaking went through such a process of creating a charter, filing the appropriate papers, and eventually cranking it through the governmental approval process, and then found ourselves with a real organization having some really good ideas about what we wanted to do in the form of where we saw ourselves in the future, recognized as a source for various information, awash with the money that would surely come flowing in, which we would carefully dole out for a variety of worthy reasons. But then real reality hits, when you realize that all of this discussion, planning, and final agreements about the charter and so forth are the easiest part. As I mentioned in the BOF, we should also begin thinking about how it is that LGA justifies its existence. First and foremost, do we know that the major and minor projects think LGA is good for them? How? What would they see an LGA accomplishing that they can't do themselves? How are they willing to support LGA? Would LGA perhaps be some kind of threat to them? It's problematic if they might only see LGA as a source of money, but otherwise want to be left alone. And what would users appreciate about LGA? Especially considering that users are a large silent unseen body of people out there, this could be difficult to ascertain. Finally, what about donors? Donors who are constantly approached for donations, who must choose where to spread out those donations that they do make. There will be a certain amount of no-brainer donating that will come from many sources in small amounts, but clearly we have to seek out and satisfy the potential large donors, not just because of the amount of money they might donate, but more importantly the magnifying effect this would have. There is a reputation and attention that comes from getting a major donation from a Google, or who knows, maybe even an Oracle or Adobe. Smaller donors use these as cues that someone with the resources has vetted this organization and found it worthy. Likewise, getting smaller donations from well-respected open source foundations can be very valuable. You may think that this is too early to think about these issues, but if you don't you may find yourselves out in the desert with an empty tank before you realize it. Greg ___ CREATE mailing list CREATE@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/create
Re: [CREATE] [LGF] Some goals, aims or objectives !
So everyone agree with all this goals ? I don't believe it ! There's another point to discuss too : when to start each goals ? Louis have suggested to start a network and to wait to be ready to set up any founding, which sound wise. Please comment ! -- yagraph 2010/6/2 Camille Bissuel > Hi everyone, > > Going on the subject of the "LGF" projects, and now we assume to keep > "Libre Graphics" as a basis name, let's go on the discussion on another > topic : goals of such an organization. > > As far as I can summarize, here is what have been said so far : > > --- > Camile Bissuel (aka yagraph - myself), the intent I had starting the BoF > session : > " Simply said, we have two main goals (to discuss) : > - connect and create a network of LG projects and peoples (not only devs, > but also designers, teachers, and users) > - as an horizon line, we want to found and get money for the Libre Graphics > projects via a non-profit organization " > > I can add that I've through to such an organization to professionalize LG > projects, both as a teacher, as a designer and as an user in collaboration > with developpers. If you're interested, please get a look to slides I had > prepared (but not used) : > http://www.yagraph.org/images/LGM/what-about-a-lgf.svg (to look at in > Firefox) . > > --- > Andreas Vox : > " 2 Aim > The aim of the organization is to connect people in the Libre Graphics > world. Members have been organizing the Libre Graphics Meeting for the last > five years. The organization will carry the spirit of the LGM to an > organizational level by providing a central point of contact for developers, > artists and donators. It will do so in > - organizing Libre Graphics meetings > - providing a website that links to all Endorsed Projects and promotes the > idea of Libre Graphics > - uses and protects the terms "Libre Graphics" and "Libre Graphics Meeting" > as a trademark. > - brings together developers with potential donators/funders > - provides certificates for teachers and students of Libre Graphics > software (needs clarification) > - provides a marketplace for artists and teachers of Libre Graphics > - furthers communications between users and developers of Libre Graphics > software " > > > --- > > IMO, Here are things we may do with such an organization : > > - be considered professional > - certificate teaching > - connect peoples and professions (developers, designers, teachers, users, > ...) through a web network > - promote and spread libre graphics projects > - pay devs with donation and incomes from teaching or content or membership > to develop Libre graphics software (things like GSOC or maybe even full time > jobs) > - fund projects similar to the 3 open movies the Blender Foundation have > successfully organized (Krita have a project of comic for example) > - have company wide discussion (for example with Adobe to discuss > standards, or with W3C to discuss drafts...) > - organize future LG Meetings ;) > - ... > > In summary : do things we can't do in an informal network. > Louis Desjardin has also said that we can't do everything right now or > quickly, and that's right, but let's think to it as an horizon line in a > near or distant future. > > > Please freely give you opinion, feelings, and so on ! > If a consensus is obtained, we will formalize that on the create wiki, and > start to build a charter as Andreas Vox have already started. > > Cheers, > -- yagraph > > > > > > ___ CREATE mailing list CREATE@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/create
[CREATE] [LGF] Some goals, aims or objectives !
Hi everyone, Going on the subject of the "LGF" projects, and now we assume to keep "Libre Graphics" as a basis name, let's go on the discussion on another topic : goals of such an organization. As far as I can summarize, here is what have been said so far : --- Camile Bissuel (aka yagraph - myself), the intent I had starting the BoF session : " Simply said, we have two main goals (to discuss) : - connect and create a network of LG projects and peoples (not only devs, but also designers, teachers, and users) - as an horizon line, we want to found and get money for the Libre Graphics projects via a non-profit organization " I can add that I've through to such an organization to professionalize LG projects, both as a teacher, as a designer and as an user in collaboration with developpers. If you're interested, please get a look to slides I had prepared (but not used) : http://www.yagraph.org/images/LGM/what-about-a-lgf.svg (to look at in Firefox) . --- Andreas Vox : " 2 Aim The aim of the organization is to connect people in the Libre Graphics world. Members have been organizing the Libre Graphics Meeting for the last five years. The organization will carry the spirit of the LGM to an organizational level by providing a central point of contact for developers, artists and donators. It will do so in - organizing Libre Graphics meetings - providing a website that links to all Endorsed Projects and promotes the idea of Libre Graphics - uses and protects the terms "Libre Graphics" and "Libre Graphics Meeting" as a trademark. - brings together developers with potential donators/funders - provides certificates for teachers and students of Libre Graphics software (needs clarification) - provides a marketplace for artists and teachers of Libre Graphics - furthers communications between users and developers of Libre Graphics software " --- IMO, Here are things we may do with such an organization : - be considered professional - certificate teaching - connect peoples and professions (developers, designers, teachers, users, ...) through a web network - promote and spread libre graphics projects - pay devs with donation and incomes from teaching or content or membership to develop Libre graphics software (things like GSOC or maybe even full time jobs) - fund projects similar to the 3 open movies the Blender Foundation have successfully organized (Krita have a project of comic for example) - have company wide discussion (for example with Adobe to discuss standards, or with W3C to discuss drafts...) - organize future LG Meetings ;) - ... In summary : do things we can't do in an informal network. Louis Desjardin has also said that we can't do everything right now or quickly, and that's right, but let's think to it as an horizon line in a near or distant future. Please freely give you opinion, feelings, and so on ! If a consensus is obtained, we will formalize that on the create wiki, and start to build a charter as Andreas Vox have already started. Cheers, -- yagraph ___ CREATE mailing list CREATE@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/create
